The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - The State of Strong Mayor Powers

Episode Date: May 1, 2024

Once upon a time, every Ontario mayor got elected by winning the majority of votes across their municipality. But when it came time to vote at council, they had just one vote like every other councillor. Not so anymore. A little over a year and a half ago, the Ontario government gave the mayors of Toronto and Ottawa so-called strong mayor powers. It meant that under certain circumstances, these mayors could override council votes that they'd actually lost. Today, 46 mayors in total have those extra powers. How's it all working out? Well, we've gathered three of the 46 here to find out: Hamilton Mayor Andrea Horwath; Burlington Mayor Marianne Meed Ward; and Guelph Mayor Cam Guthrie.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

From epic camping trips to scenic local hikes, spending time outdoors is a great way to create lasting memories to share with friends and family. This summer, TVO is celebrating the natural wonders that inspire unforgettable adventures with great documentaries, articles, and learning resources about beloved parks in Ontario and beyond. Visit tvo.me slash Ontario summer stories for all this and more. And be sure to tell us your stories for a chance to win great prizes. Help TVO create a better world through the power of learning. Visit TVO.org and make a tax-deductible donation today. Once upon a time, every mayor in this province got elected by winning the majority of votes across their municipality.

But when it came time to vote at council, they had just one vote like every other councillor. Not so anymore. A little over a year and a half ago, the Ontario government gave the mayors of Toronto and Ottawa so-called strong mayor powers. It meant that under certain circumstances, these mayors could override council votes that they'd actually lost. Today, 46 mayors in total have those extra powers. How's it all working out? Well, we've gathered three of the 46 here to find out, and here they are in order of population size of their cities. Andrea Horvath is the mayor of Hamilton, and she joins us from the Steel City. And here in our studio, Marianne Mead Ward,

the mayor of Burlington, and Cam Guthrie, the mayor of Guelph. And it's great to have you two here in our studio and your worship in the, well, I'm just going to say it, in my hometown. It's lovely to see you again, and thanks for coming on tonight. I want to start with this. I want to get a sense from all three of you off the top of what your view was on these strong mayor powers when Premier Ford gave them to you in the first place. Mayor Horvath, was it your inclination when you first got the powers to use them or not? Oh, definitely not. In fact, I was pretty clear with my council colleagues that my way of doing things is trying to hammer out a consensus or at the very least make sure that everybody's comfortable with decisions that we make as a group.

Some people will not be on side. Some people will. But didn't really expect to utilize the strong mayor powers. Mayor Mead Ward, what about you? Well, I said at the time that we didn't need strong mayor powers, didn't ask for them. We do need strong cities, which is a whole other show. But, you know, there's a whole bunch of different powers in there. And I think the one that got people most concerned about was the ability to present a bylaw and get it passed with one-third support.

So that's where all the focus of the conversation went. But there's also powers like my ability to appoint a vice chair of a committee. Does democracy crumble to the ground because I can appoint a vice chair? No, but this gets lumped in with this other one, which is overriding a vote with one-third support. So that is problematic. I understand the concerns around that.

I've not had to use the powers for anything other than approving what council has decided. So that's been our experience in Burlington. We shall talk about all this and more. Mayor Guthrie, how about you? Your inclination at the beginning. Yeah, I, along with my colleagues here and probably many others, felt at the time

that it was not really worth it. It was potentially going to cause some issues internally with relationships and it was better as Andrea rightly said the collaborative approach at that time and it was also divide I think between both the political and the administration where that was not quite clear anymore with the strong mayor powers. So there was some concerns around there at that time as well. What I find interesting about all of your answers is that since then, you have all used these strong mayor powers, even though

you were inclined not to use them off the top. And Mayor Guthrie, I'll follow up with you. You said when Premier Ford gave you the strong mayor powers, to me, this legislation starts to diminish the role of a councillor. A councillor can give opinions, ideas, and feedback. No one mayor knows everything about every issue. So what made you change your mind? I think a few things. The first is that a lot of this has to do, for me, with housing. And secondary would be affordability, of course. And when the legislation was tabled, there was no requirement of municipalities to have housing targets. The housing crisis got a lot worse since that time. And so in the ability for me to leverage the strong mayor powers to try to propel those issues forward around housing and affordability I think was wise at this time to do that because it

was the crisis that we were in on those two issues I felt like it was needed for me to do that as a previous councillor before I became the mayor I could understand why I said what I said there and I actually still quite believe it but I think up to the mayor to work collaboratively, even with the powers to be used with fellow colleagues on council and the administration is still something that I want to continue to do. All right. Let's stay with housing here. And Mayor Horvath, I'll go back to you because you used your strong mayor powers just a week ago to push through a nonprofit organization's plan to build affordable housing in Stony Creek, which is, of course, in the east end of Hamilton.

The plan that you presented, I guess, failed twice on tie votes. It was 8-8 both times. But you pushed it through using your strong mayor powers. And I guess the question is, do you think that was appropriate to do? I first want to say, in fact, it was the city of Hamilton's decision to use surplus city lands for affordable housing that was a unanimous decision that was made back in the summer alongside of a kind of a mechanism for that happening which is our housing secretariat and so we knew the housing crisis was

huge in Hamilton in fact I think you wrote about it in your blog not too long ago Steve and so it was, it is absolutely and continues to be the biggest crisis we are facing. And so the council had unanimously agreed upon that, that it was an emergency, agreed that we needed to sell off surplus land. We have a whole roadmap, our housing sustainability and investment roadmap that was unanimously supported by council. We had the secretariat, the housing secretariat. This is the mechanism by which the roadmap is implemented, unanimously supported by council.

And so this was the first report back identifying one of their jobs was to identify surplus city lands that could be used for affordable housing. And yes, the committee didn't support it on a tie vote. And then when it got to council, the same tie vote remained. And so I felt that it was important to stay true to the values that the council had identified, to the commitments that we had made, to the infrastructure we put in place to make those commitments a reality. And that's why I made the decision to bring forward the one-third vote

that Mayor Mead Ward was talking about. A couple of quick follow-ups here, because it does raise the question of whether or not half of council now feels it can't work with you anymore because you did use your strong mayor powers. And here's Matt Francis saying, circumventing the democratic process now feels it can't work with you anymore because you did use your strong mayor powers. And here's Matt Francis saying,

circumventing the democratic process and a stomp on the will of an entire community. It's a dangerous precedent. I fear for what's next. Is he right in as much as he says this is a dangerous precedent? Absolutely not. Look, it was not an easy decision to make. And I took some time in having that thoughtfulness around it and speaking to a number of people. What's true is that I did speak to a number of people issues, particularly around one of the parcels

is labeled Veterans Way. So how do we honour those veterans if we're turning a parking lot into housing? Similarly, BIA was worried about parking spaces because there are going to be some parking spaces that are lost when these two parcels become affordable housing. So what did I do? I issued a mayor's directive under the strong mayor's power to staff to do the necessary consultation and research, both with BIA and with community in terms of parking, as well as with the veterans and community around making sure that we continue to honour veterans along with the eventual provider that will be chosen through a very open and transparent process. Again, the Housing

Secretariat will do that job. Okay, Mayor Mead-Ward, I'll just get, I'm not asking you to comment on what's going on in Hamilton. That's not your affair to worry about. But the notion that somehow these decisions become a dangerous precedent going forward. Can you speak to that? You know, there's transparency and accountability built right into the legislation. So every decision that you make has to be posted publicly online. That's how we know about them. And the public will judge you.

And I believe that the public will look at the ability of a mayor to have a tool and use a tool to make their life better, whether it is affordable housing, whether it is on the budget. These are two areas where mayors are required on the budget to use the powers. So I think that the public will judge you more harshly for not using a tool that you could have to make their lives better than using it. And then they can see how you've used it and they can make their decision at the next election. But even in advance of that, the community will talk about whether this is a good thing or not a good thing.

And that conversation is happening in Hamilton, it's happening in Guelph, in London, in many places where these tools have been used by the mayors to advance what they thought were council priorities, identified priorities or community priorities, or community priorities. And so I think that that is actually part of the democratic process, is making decisions on behalf of your constituents. We do it all the time. And the public will tell you what they think of that. At election time next time around. They will. Well, they'll tell you before that for sure.

But we don't have recall legislation, so they'll have to, if they really don't like Well, they'll tell you before that for sure. But we don't have recall legislation, so if they really don't like it, they'll have to wait until four years. But they can see it unfolding. Every decision that you make is posted online, and I think that's part of the check and balance of the legislation. Mayor Horvath, I want to go back to you with one more quote, because this is great Hamilton language here, as you and I both know. Great Hamilton language here, as you and I both know. The new housing would be built, as you pointed out, on what is now a parking lot, which prompted another Hamilton City Councillor named Councillor John Paul Danko to say, I'm trying to think if I've ever heard a discussion with more melodramatic horseshit.

We're talking about a delta of a couple of dozen parking spots. Let's move on. Does he sort of sum up your views on this? Well, I'd never use that kind of Hamilton language. No, so there's some frustration around the table, there's no doubt. And that's why I moved forward, because we knew that although some people don't feel comfortable making these tough decisions, tough decisions have to be made when you're in a crisis. So we can talk about the crisis.

We can lament about it. We can put in plans about how to address it. We can put in systems to make those plans work. But then when the rubber hits the road, you have to make the tough decisions. And I think that's what this councillor was feeling frustrated about. Let's actually get to making the decisions that'll make a difference.

How many times have you used your strong mayor powers so far? I think about 21 and all posted online. That's why I know. And fully, I'm going to say 13 or 14 of those were simply to implement the bylaws that council had approved. So it's a little known fact that you have to use your powers to not veto the decisions that you made as a council. And so that is a mayor's decision. You have to use the powers to tell staff to prepare a budget. There's no discretion in that. I can't just sit back.

I have to prepare a budget and I have to direct staff to do that. So in Burlington, that's the nature of the decisions that have been made. In other municipalities that we're talking about here, they've used it for different things, and based on their view of what the community needs. How many times have you used yours? Outside of the administration side of things, I have used it three times. The first one was our community was looking at a 10% budget increase for 2025. And I felt that was completely unaffordable. And I listened to the community

very well before I made the decision that I directed staff to bring back a budget this fall that is under 4%. And then we can have a conversation as a community after that. The other two have to do with housing. One was around homelessness and to see what it would take for us to partner with others to look at a temporary structured encampment site, a tiny home community for those that are experiencing homelessness. And so that information is going to be coming forward to council. And the last one was around leveraging community assets, city-owned land, parking lots,

that we can leverage into building homes for people that need them right now. And again, that will come back to council as well. So this issue of democracy is an interesting one that people will table and throw out there as, I believe, a talking point. But these issues actually do come back, the ones that I've used anyways, to the council table. The community is involved. Council is completely involved. And we can have a full discussion. What I'm doing is trying to speed up the process on getting these issues to the table so we can get action on them. I get you. But I mean, it's more than a talking point for some people. All of the living ex-mayors of Toronto. So we're talking David Crombie, David Miller,

Barbara Hall, Art Eggleton, John Sewell, they all wrote a letter. It was actually to the former mayor, John Tory, saying that using these strong mayor powers to override the majority view on council is inconsistent with democracy. Let me get some conversation about that going. Are they right about that, Mayor Mead and Ward? Well, that goes back to a misunderstanding of the whole bundle of powers. There's a whole bunch of different things. I get that. Not budget making, not committee selections, just overriding a vote you've lost. Right. And so you can, I have veto power, we all have veto power now, specifically around budgets. But the council can override me with a two-thirds vote. So there

is a built-in protection. And that's not uncommon in a democracy either, where, for example, if we want to reconsider one of our own votes, we think we made a mistake and we want to reconsider. It happens from time to time. That also requires a two thirds vote threshold. So that is part of the process of democracy, where if you feel a decision has been made that is not in the best interest of your community and you have the power to act, the community will expect you to act. And when you do, the council can override you. So there are checks and balances built into the system. Mayor Horvath, how much flack have you received from using your strong mayor power so far? I would say I'm getting a mixed response, frankly. Some people have been very supportive, recognizing and thoughtful about acknowledging

that it was a tough decision to make, that I don't take that kind of a decision lightly. And so people here in Hamilton get that piece. But folks who are very concerned about the housing crisis, who are very concerned about making sure that we're moving forward. Interestingly enough, one of those two lots was declared surplus for affordable housing back in 2018, and nothing's happened on it since.

And so it's interesting. I think many, many people have articulated a support for the decision because it impacts our most pressing crisis that we have in Hamilton. Others, not so much because of the kinds of things that we've been talking about. For example, what the mayors were saying in their letter to Mayor Tory at the time. But, you know, at the end of the day, as Mayor Mead Ward said, there are things that as leaders we have to take on. We have to do our best to be strong as mayors to move our cities forward in a very, very difficult time. And in my case, it was an 8-8 tie. Many people have said that you were basically the tiebreaker

on this particular issue. And yes, there have been people that have been unhappy, but it's been quite a mixed response, frankly. Yeah, you're quite right. It was two tie votes that you ended up using your strong mayor powers for. I know politicians are told never answer a hypothetical question, but that's not going to stop me from putting one to you anyway. And that is, what if it hadn't been a tie vote? What if you were on the losing end or maybe down two votes on that vote? Would you still use those strong mayor powers? You know, I don't, I really don't know the answer to that, Steve, frankly, because as I said, it wasn't something that I had intended to use ever. I, you know, in fact, one of my councillors sent me a little text encouraging me to do this, to consider it seriously.

And I said, I never thought I would have to consider it TBH, to be honest, in the text. And that's why each circumstance is going to be different. And it's not only the council members. It's also the community at large and the challenges and opportunities, frankly, that the city's facing that need to be considered. So, Mayor Guthrie, again, not the budget-making aspects, not the department-making aspects or the appointment aspects that are also part of your strong mayor powers, but strictly on the issue of whether or not it's appropriate in a democracy for you to override a council decision on a vote that you've lost. Are you still comfortable doing that? I think depending on the issue, yes, I would. Because ultimately at the end of the day, I am going to be judged by the electorate and the citizens and

businesses of my community. And in speaking with them on the matters that I have already used the strong mayor powers for, I have a lot of support, a lot of support for those reasons. And so I think it would have to be highly justified and it has to be dependent upon the issue. I can tell you that when it comes to housing and affordability, those would be at the top of my list as to why I would want to try to help the community as best as I can with the way I have this legislative power to do so. And then I'll be judged accordingly. Let's see if the rubber's really hitting the road then. You've used these strong mayor powers to get housing built more quickly. Will that in fact happen now? We don't know yet because these reports are going to be coming back to council. And so we'll see.

There has been times in the past where I reflect being mayor for 10 years now where I certainly would have used my veto power. There was one case in Guelph where there was about 700 homes that was approved and recommended by our professional staff, which council voted down. That then was tied up in an OLT hearing. Ontario Land Tribunal. Yes, that's right. And for well over a year, right in the height of the housing crisis that started the last few years, and the city lost completely. I was on the losing side of that vote. And I knew that that would have been a waste of time and a waste of money. And I was right. So that particular case is something that, you know, I reflect on to say if that kind of case presented itself again in today's situation with the housing crisis, even worse than it was

several years ago when that decision was made, it would be the right decision to make today for sure. I want to follow up with Mayor Mead Ward on that. Can you, I mean, there's no guarantees in life, but can you give a very strong undertaking that the use of strong mayor powers will in fact get more of the kind of affordable housing built, for example, in Burlington that you'd want to see? I think that it might if it speeds up the process, because what we've heard is that time is money and the delays in getting shovel in the ground makes everything more expensive.

And we have seen projects be shelved in Burlington for other reasons, have nothing to do with whether I use powers or not, but they've been delayed. And now that interest rates are what they are and the supply chain issues and inflation, we have projects that are on ice right now in the city of Burlington. And if those had gotten their approvals sooner, but it didn't require a mayor's directive, there are other reasons why things are delayed. But time is money. And that's what we've heard. And certainty is money. And sometimes developers what we've heard. And certainty is money. And sometimes developers will not move forward if they don't think that the end is going to deliver in a timely manner. And if you're going to the Ontario Land Tribunal, that's a year or two

before you can even think about getting your permits to get shovel in the ground. And so that, I think, was, you know, I don't read the mind of the province. I wasn't there when they wrote the legislation, but I think they were trying to speed things along. And as Cam said, the decisions actually, in most cases, require something to come back to council for a discussion. Same with Mayor Horvath. So council still has a role

and still has a decision-making ability to weigh in on these things. And I think that's all part of the system. Mayor Horvath, that's the question I want to put to you as well, because supply chain issues still exist. Inflation still exists. Interest rates are high for developers. That still exists. Some of them can't get access to the kind of workers they need to get to get this stuff built so you've used your strong mayor powers can you basically give a hundred percent commitment that that project in stony creek is now going to go forward well what i can say is it has a better chance than virtually any other project that's going to be done uh with city-owned land that is not already zoned and so that was a big factor for us.

The zoning is already in place for those two parking lots to become mixed-use lots. In other words, housing is already an available use for those two lots. And so that speeds up the process considerably because there's no rezoning required. But not dissimilarly, I think that it's important to acknowledge that there are other factors that are in play here. And in fact, following up on what Marianne had to say, it's absolutely the case, or maybe it was Cam, it's absolutely the case that the staff recommendation in our case was to utilize those surplus properties. And so I wasn't, you know, kind of off in la-la land, not listening to or paying attention to the recommendation of city staff.

That was their recommendation. It made a lot of sense. It was properly reviewed and undertaken. And so that gave me extra, I guess, confidence, if you will, that that was the right move to make. And so that's where we are. But can I guarantee? Absolutely not. We do, however, have a process in place to identify the not-for-profit provider that will be chosen. That process is right now underway. So we have the land, it's zoned,

it is now available for the housing and the proponent, if you will, very soon will be identified. So those are all very positive pieces that will lead to a quicker build than let's say a piece of housing or land, rather, that's surplus to the city but not zoned. And, in fact, that report that I just talked about that was the city recommendation included six properties in four different wards. These were the only two, in fact, that were already zoned for housing.

Gotcha. I have 30 seconds left to ask Mayor Mead Ward a real smart-ass question here, so here we go. You three are, of course, completely reasonable, intelligent mayors, and you would never inappropriately use these powers, but what if the good burgers in your city at some point in the future

decide to elect a complete nutjob as the mayor of the city, and this nutjob wants to use these powers very inappropriately and on some very sketchy stuff. Will that make you think twice about the advisability of giving you folks these powers? So people elect all kinds of people to office. And they will very quickly at the appropriate time unelect them if they don't see that they're serving the interests of the community. So democracy has a way of fixing any problem that there is. And in the meantime, mayors and their councils and their communities

have a tool to advance priorities. There's built-in transparency. And if they don't like the decisions that are being made, first of all, they know about them because they're all posted online. And secondly, they can unelect anyone. And I've beaten incumbents, as you know. So all of us are beatable. And if the community is not happy with the decisions that we've made, they'll make their voice heard. Smart-ass question, thoughtful

answer. There we go. Mr. Director, can I get a three-shot, please, of the three there worships? Andrea Horvath, the mayor of Hamilton. Cam Guthrie, the mayor of Guelph. Mary Ann Mead-Ward, the mayor of Burlington. Thank you very much everybody for joining us on TVO tonight. Thank you. The agenda with Steve Paikin is made possible through generous philanthropic contributions from viewers like you. Thank you for supporting TVO's journalism.