The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - What Does Being a Mother Mean Now?

Episode Date: May 10, 2025

From mommy bloggers and hyper-organized TikTok moms, to feminist manifestos on the value of domestic labour, motherhood is a hot topic. And in her new book, "Story of Your Mother," – partially written directly to her first-born son – Chantal Braganza looks for fresh ways to define the life-altering experience, both intellectually and very personally. She's also a senior editor at Chatelaine Magazine.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

From mommy bloggers and hyper organized TikTok moms to feminist manifestos on the value of domestic labor, motherhood has become a hot topic. And in her new book, Story of Your Mother, Chantelle Briganza looks for fresh ways to define the life altering experience, both intellectually and very personally. She's also a senior editor at Shilai Magazine and she joins us now for more. Hi Chantelle. Hi. Welcome home, Chantel. Hi. Welcome home. Chantel actually used to work here at TVO. It's nice to have you.

It's good to be back. And your first TV interview too for your book. It is, yes. My first TV interview for, I think, anything. Well, it's great that you're here. Congratulations. We're all very happy for you. I wanted to start this conversation by reading something that you wrote in the book.

You write, motherhood as subject, motherhood as genre. While understanding motherhood this way can spotlight stories, our culture is often eager to ignore. A genre is easy to pigeonhole, a subject too prone to being spoken about and absolutes about an experience that is not necessarily universal. It hadn't yet occurred to me that motherhood could also be understood as structure, an organizing principle, infinitely interpretable.

How does, as you call it, the motherhood genre help and hinder people looking for guidance as they prepare for the changes that become, that come with becoming a mother? Personally, I think around the time when I went through my first couple of pregnancies, this would have been like mid 2010s, there was a burgeoning genre of literature that at the time critics, book reviewers, and the people marketing the books called the new literature of motherhood. Memoirs that asked questions, investigated the ideas around motherhood, the culture of motherhood in intellectual and literary ways, and as such suggesting that that had never happened

before. That was interesting to me given that I was a new mother at the time or in the process of becoming one. But after a while when you read enough, it becomes apparent that nothing about motherhood literature is really new. I think as long as people have been able to make their stories known to the world, people have been telling stories about the experience of motherhood for a very long time.

And I think at this point now, when thinking about motherhood literature as a genre, it's useful in terms of finding the literature that you want, but maybe not as much in inviting people in to stories about motherhood or that use motherhood as a way of telling maybe another story. When you make something a genre by its very nature, you're saying this is interesting to a certain kind of person and also not interesting to a certain kind of person. What did you want to add to the dialogue?

I wanted to, at some point while writing the book, I didn't start out this way, but at a certain point it became very difficult for me to say that I was writing a book about motherhood because people experience it in different ways. And people experience aspects of motherhoods without even being a mother. So how could I make a document that felt true to my experience of it and also be translatable for other people in my life and also other readers who haven't experienced it themselves, in particular my son, who many parts of the book is addressed to? That was something I wanted to ask you.

Some of the chapters, you write it as if you're speaking to him. Why did you approach telling your stories in that way? One thing that I wanted to get across and that felt very natural to me is to was to write as though I was talking to my son in a way that I couldn't and probably still can't speak to him now. He's eight years old. He's very smart. I think some of the questions that he was asking and that Children by Nature and probably still can't speak to him now. He's eight years old. He's very smart. I think some of the questions that he was asking and that Children by Nature ask, the story of your parents before you were born, the story of how you were born as a child,

how your parents met, where are they from, you have these answers that you give them when they're younger, they change as they get older, as they form their own understandings of it, and I hope it's apparent in the book that, you know, from the very beginning I couldn't wait to tell him the version that I want to tell him even if I can't give it to him now. And that one day like, you know, maybe 10, 15, 20 years from now he'll read it and that'll be apparent to him.

I just wanted to go back to something that you said earlier about not everybody who has a child is necessarily a mother. Why was that important for you to kind of investigate? I think for a couple of reasons. There's the fact that there are different ways to be a mother. I mean, when we talk about motherhood, are we talking about gestation? are we talking about gestation? Are we talking about child care?

Are we talking about a legal relationship? There are people who find mother figures in their life because their own biological mother is either not present or it's a strained and troubled relationship. But they have other people in their life who fulfilled that role. Because I think also, too, when you have these absolutes about who can be a mother, or it's just like your mother. And if your mother might not be a mother in the way we expect mothers to be, if they're not nurturing, if they don't accept you, then it adds like kind of this injury

that you can't really come back from as a child. And you can find that elsewhere, I think. So yeah. It comes in different ways. You write, there's a line to walk that displays a specific level of both satisfaction and dissatisfaction with contemporary motherhood. What is that line?

I'm still experiencing it now. I think culturally, where we're at now, there's this unspoken agreement that if a mother is too happy in her job as being a mother, that there must be something wrong with her, that she's not investigating other aspects of her life, that you can't be too happy as a mother and have that be the only thing that makes you happy. Why do you think that is?

I think that part of it comes from the idea that a level of cultural scorn that we have for people who are stay-at-home mothers, even as we're in a moment now where we see trad wife content becoming a big thing on social media. There still is this assumption that you're doing this, but you also have a public life. And then at the same turn, you can't be too disinterested in your life as a mother and want to have your life outside of that,

be it an important thing, or else you're not doing a good enough job as a mother. So a lot of judgment. You have to be in conflict, or else you're doing doing a good enough job as a mother. So a lot of judgment. You have to be in conflict or else you're doing it wrong, I think. And the Trad Wife movement, she explained it's on social media where different aspects of, I guess, what people would say is traditional motherhood, cooking, cleaning,

staying at home, taking care of your children. Making them the most nutritious, organic, made-from-scratch food, sewing their clothing, having every waking moment of your life being in service of one job. Of your children. You also write, I've been thinking about return as a form of reproduction, one story told many times over,

each one a little true. What did you mean by that? There is a moment in the book early on where I tell a story to my son when he was about four years old about my father. It's not really a story. It's just like an anecdote about his life, which was a story that he told me when I was younger.

But the three of us, this four-year-old, me in my early 30s, and my father had different understandings of what this one thing meant. And it was so interesting to me that by nature this one thing that, you know, my father, like one of his first jobs when he moved to Canada, just like a side job that he had, different understandings of what it meant and our reactions to that. It, I think, was a pivotal moment in how I understood what I was trying to write. And I think it made it easier to write, in a way. One story told many times over, each one a little true, understood differently,

and I think also speaks to the nature of how we understand a single story that is part of our inheritance, history, heritage. It's kind of like when you grow up in a family and everybody has a different interpretation of what life was like in that family. And your own interpretation may change with time. The title of the book is Story of Your Mother. And the way that I read it was you're talking to your son.

This is a story for them of your mother, but it also could imply to your mother. You talked a little bit about your dad. Can you tell us a bit more about your parents, including your mom? So I talk a little bit about my father in the book. And I do talk about my mother, but maybe a little bit less directly.

There are sections in the book where I have actual dialogue with my father. And I'm talking about stories that he's told me or aspects of history that he's explaining or that we're explaining to each other. There's other sections in the book where it isn't immediately clear but someone is telling me a story about you know where I come from or stories about my past that precede my being born and there are stories from my mom. There are stories about how my parents met,

their early years living here shortly after I was born, my brother was born. And they take on the nature of the story, the quality of a parent telling a child a story. And that's her presence in the book. Well, I thought it was interesting that you said in the book, you have dialogue with your father, but with your mom, you say it's less directly.

Was that intentional? Is that something that you realized afterwards? I think it was intentional. Why? Why? They're very, I hope, representative of the way that we communicate with each other, or that I communicate with my parents differently.

I think there's this idea that if you're a mother, then your mother will be able to tell you what it's like to parent. And maybe sometimes that's an assumption that we should be making. Yeah. I think, OK, so well before the idea of having children was even in my mind, I always remember my mom talking about how being pregnant was like this wonderful time I think, okay, so well before the idea of having children

was even in my mind, I always remember my mom talking about how being pregnant was like this wonderful time in her life and her hair was gorgeous and she felt amazing and obviously that's one aspect of it. She was living in a very different reality than I was 10 years ago. Year long, MatleE did not exist. She had to patchwork childcare earlier on. We had family come help with childcare when my brother and I were young.

So it was significantly harder. And I think that her knowledge of that didn't become apparent until my kids were younger. She's very involved as are my in-laws as well in helping with our child care and that comes from like a knowledge of just how hard it can be otherwise. It is such a gift. She knows what it's like to go through that. I will say though when I was pregnant my hair was amazing. I just couldn't keep any food down so that was not great. You look great, you're given a little bit of this and a little bit of that. You grew up in a multilingual family and is that important for you to pass on to your children? I'm starting to understand just how hard it is to do that. When I was growing up, when

I was very young, when I was very young, like Spanish was my first language. My grandmother and aunts were in the home. They only spoke Spanish to me. And when you live in an environment like that, it's very easy and almost effortless. You have no other choice. That's the language that you speak.

My husband doesn't speak Spanish, and I have to very much make the conscious effort to pull my kids into it if I want them to learn. And by nature, of course, they're going to be resistant to it. I mean, I was as a child too. My mother tried to take me to Spanish classes on Saturdays. Who wants to go to school on a Saturday? It's work.

And I'm definitely not as successful in it as my own parents were, but I'm trying. There's a line in the book where someone refers to language as an inheritance, and I thought that was such a beautiful way to describe that. But yeah, Saturday mornings for language school. But Mexico has an important place in your writing, the food, the language. Why is it so meaningful in terms of home and belonging? As a child, we went to visit family quite often.

And I think that when you form core memories at that point in your life, they stick with you for a very long time. Their identity forming. I definitely don't visit as much as I used to. And definitely not for the stretches of time that I did as a young child. And I think that that period of time,

it had a profound impact on how my taste in food, on my interest in seeing other places, my comfort with, my desire to see other places. Why was it identity forming? You just said that. Because so many childhood memories. Like, if I think about my childhood, that's one of the first things that I think comes up in my mind.

Even if, like, time-wise, it wasn't most of my childhood, but it's still there. It shines really bright. An unusual way you talk about motherhood is with meditation of sorts on sourdough starter. I did try to bake during, because I'm not good in the kitchen, but I did try to bake during the pandemic, and I made one loaf that was perfection.

Can you tell us that story about the sourdough starter and motherhood? When I was on mative with my first child, so the first three months, I spent a lot of time on free, on trading apps. I was scrolling through trading apps for, I don't know, it was just like an anxiety calming thing. Trading a free pair of boots for whatever.

And this listing came up for sourdough starter. And I do love to cook, anxiety calming thing like trading a free pair of boots for whatever and this listing came up for sourdough starter and I do love to cook and I had never made sourdough before and I thought hmm you know I'll take a sourdough starter home and it's an exchange for lip gloss in exchange for lip gloss and it's just this additional thing in my home that I need to care for but the stakes for it were nothing like I'm taking care of this new child in my life and also feeding this little starter a bit of flour every day, every couple of days, and look, there's some beautiful bread as a byproduct of that.

And it wasn't apparent to me then, but thinking about it now, using it as a means of just being able to exercise control in one small aspect of your life when everything else is very new and feels world reordering. It was a moment of calm and I still think about it. It's not motherhood specifically, but it was a very useful tool at that time. You mentioned the word control. Anyone who's ever had a new baby realizes that it's any kids of any age. Parenting is a very humbling experience.

You're not in control of a lot. And in your early months, early years of parenthood, you are dealing with the pandemic. A lot happened in your family during your early years as a mother. At one point, your son takes your face in his hands and asks you this question, are you another mama? That essay, I was bawling. What led to this moment of your son taking your face in his hands and asking you, are you another mama?

So that was a really rough summer for a number of reasons. My son would have been four and a half at the time. As soon as he was older, my younger son was just a small infant at the time. And it was a high pandemic. We're all at home. We're all around each other all the time. And it was a time in our family's life

where I was very much interested in trying to keep things as same and normal feeling as possible when it was very difficult, maybe not even advisable to try to do that at the expense of acknowledging that things are a little bit crazy right now. Kids know.

They know when something feels off and something felt off to him. And I'm really happy that he was able to identify it, felt comfortable saying it, even if it was maybe a little bit jarring to be called out on it at the time. I think it was an important essay to write. I think when people read it, they'll find out all the events that led up to that moment. But when March of 2025 marked five years since the pandemic, a lot of women had children

during that time. And a lot of things changed in how villages, how our society operates in childcare, having extended family look after children. But giving birth during that time and also seeing it's a time of great joy having a child, but then it's a time of great loss. And I think the fact that you marked that, I think it's going to help a lot of other mothers who

may have gone through that time. Was it difficult to write about something that, you know, because you're telling the stories of your family members, is it difficult to tell the stories of your family members, is it difficult to tell the stories of other people while you're trying to be as honest as you can in your own story? Oh yeah. I also think that I might have written about it differently had I waited.

So there is... Had you waited for what? Had I waited longer, had I waited for like 10 years up from the experience longer, I might have looked back on it differently. I think there's advantages and disadvantages to that. Like, you're closer to it. It feels more painful. But I think that there is something useful in being

closer to the experience. Having enough removed from it to be able to make sense of it, but not so far that you don't remember maybe some of the parts that made it feel either more painful or, I don't know, there's so much about the pandemic that we've suppressed. So I'm glad I got it down now. How does motherhood reshape relationships? I would imagine this is different for everyone.

But if part of your experience involves that crucible of daily ministrations of care I would imagine this is different for everyone. But if part of your experience involves that crucible of daily ministrations of care for an infant and being involved, like the physical, intense labor of feeding, sleeplessness, that alone, and it's just one aspect of it, but it's huge, I would hope would change your relationship with and your understanding of anyone who's had to care for somebody, whether that's an infant, the elderly, your understanding of

and relationship to how various forms of labor in our society. Unpaid labor. Unpaid, underpaid, unrecognized, poor supports for it. There was a moment at the beginning of the pandemic where it seemed like we were going to get to that global understanding of how important that is. I don't know if we've carried that lesson through with us

fully, but I hope we get there. I always tell my friends, be patient with your mom friends because they're not in Vegas dancing on tables. They're probably buried under laundry and spit up. In our final few minutes, I wanted to talk about the final chapter. You write that in the future, you remember this time as, quote, a period when as much as labor and label, motherhood constituted a form of time travel. What do you hope your children will come to understand when they're old enough to understand

– to read this book? When they're old enough to and then maybe later on, I think when I talk about children as a form of time travel, there's the aspect of me better being able to understand or getting close to understanding my parents' experience. Being new parents, my hopes for my kids later on, whether or not children will be part of their life, how I'll fit into that. And yeah, I hope that they come away with it, from it, with the understanding that I've been thinking about these things for a very long time. How do you hope they understand you as a mother and the decisions that you may have made?

I'd be curious to know what their understanding is first. I know that's not a satisfying answer, but I'm very interested to know. Chantelle, congratulations. It's a beautiful book. Thank you. And I'm not just proud of you because I'm your friend, but it's ever since you were here at TVO, this is something that you wanted to do. And you went and did it.

You keep saying it took you a long time to do it. It took a very long time, yes. You started and you finished, and that's what matters. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you so much for spending time with us. Thank you very much.