The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - What Does Canadian History Leave Out?

Episode Date: November 27, 2024

How does the telling of Canadian history change when we add Indigenous perspectives? Whose voices have been excluded from our understanding of this country's narrative? Jody Wilson-Raybould presents a more complete version of events in a new book she's co-authored with Roshan Danesh, called "Reconciling History: A Story of Canada."See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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you didn't know you could become. Exciting, isn't it? Visit tvo.org slash giving Tuesday to make your donation today and discover your 2-point TVO. [♪upbeat music playing throughout the show.♪ [♪upbeat music playing throughout the show.♪ Does the narrative of Canada change when we listen to Indigenous voices? In her new book, co-written with lawyer and educator Roshan Dinesh, Jodie Wilson-Raybould

sets out to tell the history of this country by incorporating voices we don't always hear. It's called Reconciling History as Story of Canada. She's also a former Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada. And Jodie Wilson-Raybould joins us now for more. Hi. Hi. It's really nice to have you here. This is a really terrific book. Thank you. It's very dense, but it has so much information in it.

You co-wrote this book with fellow lawyer and advocate Roshan Dadesh. How did that partnership come about? Yeah, I'm really proud to have been able to co-author this with with Roshan. He and I have worked together for almost 15 years. When I was the regional chief for the BC Assembly of First Nations, I hired Roshan to assist with developing principles around the recognition of indigenous rights. And we've never separated since. And he, in fact, was one of my legal advisors when I was Minister of Justice. So he came to Ottawa with me.

So we have a very close working relationship. And he's a dear friend. You can tell there's a great synergy in this book. In the book, you examine the idea that Canada lacks a common memory. What is missing from the dominant narrative of our history? Just differing perspectives and reflections of reality. In terms of the book, we seek to actually incorporate those differing perspectives, the perspectives that have been lost

or not heard in our different periods of history of Indigenous voices and their experiences in terms of the legacy of colonization. We try to do that throughout the different time periods, but also bringing in non-Indigenous voices from differing perspectives to move beyond that predominant narrative that so many of us have been taught which is the narrative that's told by the few as opposed to the many in Canada there are a lot of differing voices that haven't been heard. It felt as if we were hearing from witnesses depending on whatever time period you were talking about what What I thought was really interesting,

and this is a line that stuck out to me from the book, you wrote that there is no neutral telling of a story. What did you mean by that? Well, history is not static. History is dynamic. It's constantly changing. And we need to look at words and look at words carefully in the context in which they were spoken, at the time in which they were spoken.

And throughout the book, as we come into the present, at the very beginning, their voices of indigenous peoples were far fewer, and the voices of non-indigenous peoples were greater. And that changes with reconciling our colonial history. So when we come up to the present day, the voices of Indigenous peoples are speaking more loudly and more openly about what needs to be done in terms of reconciliation. But understanding that words matter,

and we need to understand how those words were spoken and in what context context and have the ability to be a bit self-reflective about the words that we hear. I thought it was interesting too because you're asking the reader of your work to also interrogate what it is that you're writing. Absolutely, absolutely. I mean I think you know revisiting or thinking about history is what the book also talks about history but also how we think about history and whose voices we're listening to. I mean, the predominant narrative of the history of this country as told by non-Indigenous peoples are the so-called fathers of Confederation, Upper and Lower Canada,

and the history that's spoken about from Indigenous peoples, that when Canada was formed, Indigenous peoples were not there. We were left out very different stories, but stories that reflect the siloed nature of history and the siloed reality of the history of Canada because of the legacy of colonization. And in order to cover Canadian history since before colonization, the book is organized into sections based on different parts of a totem pole on the Kingkome Inlet on the coast of British Columbia. We have a

photo of the pole here. What is the significance of this artwork? This is a pole that was raised in my grandmother's home community of Kingham back in 1936. And I'm certainly not an expert on the pole. There are far more knowledgeable people in our community. But the significance of the pole and why we sought to frame the book around it is the pole was raised at a time a very

dark period in Canada's history where You know the Indian Act was coming into its full force children were being removed from communities It was against the law to raise matters of rights if you were an indigenous person and the poll For me when I look at it, signifies many things. But it signifies, it is art, but it is the history of my people, the Muskema, Zawadina people. It reflects our lineage, our worldview. And the four crests on the pole represent the four tribes of the Muskema and how we

come together and need to work together. But it also reflects the reality of the history of colonization and the fight of indigenous peoples for justice, because it was raised at a time after the death of King George V, at the height of the imposition of colonial rule. It speaks about the relationships of my people, but also the relationships between my people and the non-Indigenous peoples who were coming in more and more force. When you were talking about your connection to your family with the Totem Pole, I could see a lot of pride on your face. How come? Well, we dedicate this book to the Muscuma

and Zaudinic people, which is where I come from, which is my grandmother's community. She's the matriarch of our clan. And she taught me who I was. And the pole speaks to who our people are and how, beyond memory, beyond clans and creation, it speaks about our creation and our resilience and how we have worked together

in the face of many different challenges. But it also speaks to, I think importantly, what we need to do as individuals, as human beings, to ensure that we can overcome many challenges, including the challenges that we face today and recognizing that we need to move forward together. There are four sections on the poll. But you write that this does not represent a hierarchy

like some people might think. Because I think for a lot of people, when they see a totem pole, they imagine one thing. I think a lot of people look at a totem pole and say, that's a beautiful piece of art, which is why we in the book, and this is a metaphor for history, I mean history is constantly changing. We encourage people to look at the totem pole from many different perspectives and angles, standing farther away from it

and standing closer to it, but to truly understand what that pole means. For my people, they're four crests. They represent the first ancestor of each of our tribes, but they also, in terms of the book, represent different time periods or eras in our history where there has been impact in terms of the relationship between indigenous and non-indigenous people.

You mentioned the first ancestor and that's one of the four poles, four parts of the pole. How does oral history and storytelling differ from how many Canadians may be used to thinking about the history of this country? Yeah, it's a great question. I'm a big advocate for storytelling. And I think the main reason for that is my people and Indigenous peoples, I think, generally have oral history. We didn't have a written language. So in order to pass down our customs and our traditions and our values and our worldview who we are, we needed to continue to tell those stories from generation to generation.

And this is why the book is constructed as it is, as an oral history. If we do not tell the truth of our history, then our culture would die. So when the poll was raised it needed to be witnessed by the chiefs and the community members from the four tribes and surrounding areas to recognize why the poll was raised, about the importance of ensuring that we maintain relationships between and

amongst ourselves, but also remembering who we are in the face of outside forces coming in to try and eliminate who we are. This was the reality back in the 1930s in terms of colonization. You said that before the history wasn't written and you've told the oral history in a book, so in fact it's now written. What does that mean for you and part of what it means for your legacy? Well, I think, I mean, I'm, what it means for the legacy of indigenous peoples, which I'm one, of course,

and proud to be so. I think that indigenous peoples in this country have a lot to teach others, non-Indigenous peoples, about their worldview, our way of life, which is rooted in community wherein everybody has a role to play to ensure that community functions the way that it should. I mean, I was fortunate enough to be a member of parliament and to be a minister, and I went to Ottawa wanting to create the space for indigenous peoples in this country to rebuild their nations.

And what I learned, many things, but what I learned in particular was that parliament and the way we govern in our society could learn a lot from my people who have been able to survive in the face of many challenges for millennia in the ways and the means and the respectful patterns of behavior that have enabled that to be so. I have a structure of the interview, but I need to follow up on something you just said, because when I said your legacy, you said our legacy, community that you come from. But when you were in Ottawa, it was just you.

And I can imagine the weight of representing a people's that are not monolithic, by the way. What was that like for you? How did you carry that weight? Or? How did you carry that weight? Or maybe how did you carry that power? Well, I was incredibly proud to be a member of parliament and to be made a minister of the crown. It was never anything that I could have imagined

when I was growing up. I guess an accomplishment for me, not a guess. It guess an accomplishment for me, not a guess, it was an accomplishment for me, but I believe it was a huge accomplishment across the board, wherein there was the first Indigenous person to be Canada's Minister of Justice and Attorney General. That means something. What happened in terms of my story is what happened.

But I know, and I take hope in this, is that I know I was the first. But we are in the age of the thunderbird and resilience and resurgence. I know I'm not going to be the last Indigenous person to hold that title and other titles within government. So the next, if we go back to the Pole, we have the Raven, and then after the Raven, we have the Wolf. You talked a little bit about your grandmother. How does she work to preserve the traditions of the Big House when we talk about the Wolf?

Well, the Wolf, they hunt in packs, and the Wolf in this part of the book, part three of the book, it speaks to the resistance and the advocacy that we saw visibly and invisibly during a period of time, you know, leading to the constitutional conferences. My grandmother, her traditional name was Pugladi and she and others of her generation had to toil in the shadows. The only way to preserve our way of life and our culture and our laws and traditions, the big house in the potlatch, was to do it in the shadows. If they had done it publicly it would have

been put down, it would have been struck down because it was illegal at the time. So my grandmother and our people, even when it was against the law, would potlatch. And we would have lookouts on the river and on the roadways for the Indian agents, the RCMP coming. And when they were seen to be coming, we would switch from doing the work of the big house

to singing Christian hymns or other things that the Indian agents accepted. This duality, huh? Yeah, these workings of my grandmother and others to keep our traditions alive, to keep the big house alive so future generations, my generation, those to come could know it, live it, and understand it was an incredibly bold form of leadership

and reflection of the Wolf Hunts and in in the shadows but we're coming out of those shadows and I and others have the opportunity to be completely visible and this is because things are changing because there are more voices laws have changed not nearly enough but we're coming out of the shadows and it's pretty hopeful in an exciting period of time. And it was also a form of resistance and one of the voices that a lot of Canadians are familiar with is elder Murray Sinclair, a lifelong advocate who recently passed away. How does his legacy

fit into the story of Indigenous resistance and resilience? Yeah, I was like with everybody saddened to hear. I knew he had been sick for some time of his passing. He leaves an extraordinary legacy. He was the first in many different situations throughout his life. But Murray will be remembered for many things, but in particular for being the

commissioner, the chief commissioner of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which he, along with the other commissioners, interviewed so many survivors of the Indian residential school system and brought out into the light for so many Canadians the reality of that history, the reality of the experiences of Indigenous peoples and what happened and how children were taken away and the impacts that that has to this day. So Murray will be remembered for shining a light on that very dark period in our history and being a first of many and proud to have known him.

The last section of the Kinkompul is the Thunderbird. I wanted to read a part of it from what you wrote in the book. What we are now bearing witness to is the taking flight of Indigenous peoples in contemporary Canada, the vibrancy of our young people, the creative explosion of our arts and culture, the energy of sport and the determination of our athletes, the emergence of our people as leaders in politics and business, the accomplishments of our Indigenous professionals,

the rebuilding of our nations and governments, and revitalization of our indigenous laws and legal orders. What are some of the things that make you hopeful about the future? I'm just reading that there are those words and I feel them and I have the great fortune of being able to travel extensively around the country and the big question that people ask me is, what can I do to help advance reconciliation? And it's happening more and more with increasing frequency. Canadians are learning our history, our true history,

and are seeking to understand different worldviews and how worldviews create the world that we live in. And wanting to be what I like to call in-betweeners, to break down the silos between and among us, to relate as human beings and recognize our interconnectedness and our interdependency. That to me is so hopeful. I know that it's Canadians in their own individual lives and they

reflect this to me that are going to transform and continue to transform our reality to draw more out into the light. Those indigenous stories assist in the rebuilding work that needs to be done. But yeah we're in the period of the Thunderbird as I said earlier the Thunderbird represents strength. It represents power and resurgence. And yes, that's true for Indigenous peoples, but we have so many others, Canadians generally, that want to assist in creating the change and more respectful patterns of behavior, of relationships relationships as was envisioned when the Kingkampal was raised? I think in recent years I know for myself I didn't learn

about residential schools but now I know about them and throughout the country a lot of Canadians when they learn the history they learn about what's happened in this country they're appalled appalled, and they want to take responsibility and to move forward in reconciliation. But we're also having people who are denying the truth of this country. So how do we, can we have reconciliation if some people can't accept the truth? some people can't accept the truth? Yeah, that's a great question. I, Roshan and I actually just recently wrote an opinion piece in the Toronto Star that

spoke to the rise in our residential school denialism. I mean, on the one hand, a charitable view is that people are having conversations and I don't agree with their views in terms of denying the reality of residential schools but at least they're engaged in the conversation. But I mean the reality is those comments dehumanized indigenous lives and realities. The vast majority of people have read the TRC report, or at least part of it. There's numerous pieces of evidence that reflect that so many children were taken away from their homes and never returned. We have a long way to go in terms of achieving true reconciliation.

There are voices that are going to be completely adverse to that, but there are more voices that are wanting to do things. Change is hard and we need to stick to it and draw it into light as much as possible and have conversations with people that see things in a contrary way, reinforce the experiences of Indigenous peoples. And for those Canadians, which is the vast majority of them, recognize and embrace those realities and experiences.

And try to do as Jorah Zurasma's quote talks about, you know, create that common memory. Because without that common memory of who we are as a people and how we got to this moment in time, we can't build a shared future. And I think the vast majority of people want to do that. You come back from a background in law, and throughout the book, we learn how the law has been used against Indigenous peoples, but also how those communities have used the law to fight back. You've written three books now. Why pursue storytelling?

Well, it's how people and ideas, it's how people survive, and it's how ideas are advanced and debated and discussed. I mean, we talked earlier, I have the great fortune of being in and playing many different roles, and learned learned I've learned a lot of different lessons from those roles so I feel a responsibility to impart what I learned and whether that be my political memoir or importantly around one of the biggest issues I see facing the country which is equality and equity and inclusion and justice and ensuring that everybody can

play the role including indigenous peoples. I believe it's one of the most important issues facing our country. One of the frustrating things that I felt when I was reading the book was that when governments change you would have a government that was committed to making change and then the government would change and then you'd have another government that was not as committed or and you also comment in the book that so many reports have been commissioned but so few of the recommendations have been implemented. How do we go beyond identifying the same problems to

actually solving them? Yeah I mean it doesn't matter what government is in Ottawa. Indigenous peoples and people who want to move on reconciliation have faced the same challenge is that there's commitment, but there's no necessary follow through in terms of transforming laws, policies, and practices. But I will say, when I was first elected regional chief, we had to sit around with other leaders and talk about how we can get Canadians even to take note of Indigenous peoples or the idea of reconciliation.

We're in a very different time now where people from all walks of life are wanting to do more. This is how social change happens. People wanting to, you know, do their part, play their role. It's not governments or leaders in Ottawa or at Queen's Park or anywhere else across the country that create the change. It's each of us as Canadians in our own individual lives taking steps and building on our previous actions. That's how the change happens, the great moments in history happen by each of us doing our

part. I'd like to take a look at a clip from a different time in your life and this is a quote you actually mentioned in the book. Let's take a look. I was taught to always be careful what you say because you cannot take it back. I was taught to always be careful what you say because you cannot take it back. I was taught to always hold true to your core values and principles and to act with integrity. These are the teachings of my parents, my grandparents and my community. I come from a long line of matriarchs and I am a truth teller in accordance with the laws and traditions of our big house. This is who I am and this is who I always will be. Of course that was your time in Canadian politics. You made sure to

stay true in your culture and values. Is this the way forward for Indigenous Crown relations? I think so. In writing this book, I reconnected with the story of the Kingkampole and the reality of what has made my people so strong. Those are the values that I spoke about in that clip. It makes me emotional thinking about it because the way that I was able to sit in that space and speak about who I am and what I was experiencing and what I knew my job was to do that in the face of however many people were watching was because I was rooted in who I am knowing where I come from and knowing the strength that comes

from a people that work together and what can be an accomplished when we do work together. I mean the closing of the book has a chapter called Kimola, which means many walking together. I think that is how we are going to as a country and we just need to look around the world to see how challenged we are in so many different respects. And if COVID and other issues have taught us anything, it's how fundamentally interconnected and interdependent we are. And we need to recognize that. That's the common memory of where we've come from. But understanding that in order to tackle the big challenges faced by humanity at this time,

we need to listen to each other and find solutions. We're going into a political season here in this country, and I hope that people who want to hold office or to be elected understand that we don't actually... We're not able to arm ourselves to combat these challenges unless we actually are firing on all cylinders, which means bringing all voices in to solve these complex problems. That's what gave me the strength to sit in that place.

It must have been lonely? You know, it wasn't lonely. I was there on my own, but more than ever, it was voices from right across the country, whether they stopped me in an airport, sent me emails, sent me text messages, reached out on social media. And it wasn't just indigenous peoples, it was non-indigenous peoples as well, who identified with something that I said,

or an experience that they had in their own lives where they faced challenges and they had to determine how they would lead, what type of leader they would be, whether they spoke out you know in corners or publicly. People wanting to see people speak truth to power and have integrity and be genuine, I guess, and authentic in who they are. So I heard tons of stories like that and it was very heartwarming and made me feel like in that moment I was not alone. Thank you so much for giving us such a generous interview.

Really appreciate it. And thank you for making time for us. Thank you for having me. I think this is a really incredibly important book for not just Canadians, but for everyone to read. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you, ma'am.

It was a pleasure.