The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - What is Canada's Place in an Unpredictable World?

Episode Date: May 27, 2025

Bob Rae, Canada's ambassador to the UN, talks about the wars in the Middle East and Ukraine, Donald Trump's administration, the state of democracy around the world, the recent federal election here at home, and how Canada's geopolitical role is changing.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

These are very strange times to be a Canadian. Our relationship with the United States hasn't been this bad since the War of 1812. They have a president who, while sitting beside our prime minister in the Oval Office, declared that he'd still like us to be his country's 51st state. And we are trying to set a democratic example to a world constantly flirting with increasing illiberal democracy. That's all just another day at the office for our next guest. Bob Ray is ambassador and permanent representative of Canada to the United Nations and of course was premier of Ontario from 1990 to 95 and it's great to have you back in that chair. Thank you Steve.

It's great to be with you. It really is. Your job I gather is to go to work every day and to try to push that boulder for peace up the mountain just a little more, a little more, a little more. So let's start with a simple question. How's that going these days? It's tough. It's very tough right now. We're in a tough space in the world. The thing I think it's important for us as Canadians to remember is that however tough we think it is for us, it's a lot tougher for a great many other people around the world. Can you compare and contrast because I, you know, 40 years ago during the height of the

Cold War we had, you know, tens of thousands of nuclear weapons at each other's heads and yet for some reason it felt safer then than it does today. Is that weird of me to think that? No, I think, I mean, I don't think it's. First of all, Steve, there's nothing weird about you. Whatever some people may say. I've never. Appreciate that.

It's not an adjective I've ever used to describe you. There are others, but not someone. I would say that there was an awful, I mean awful, awesome stability in the nuclear era. And by the way, we're still stability in the nuclear era. And by the way, we're still living in the nuclear era. And the more countries that have the potential for becoming active in the nuclear field, the more unstable it will become.

But because of the sense that the countries involved all had an understanding of what the rules would be and how things would work. And there were lots of conversations behind the scenes, and there were lots of discussions. We had a couple of major confrontations, such as in Cuba in 1962. But I think that the challenge now

is that there are no guardrails. We're not living in a world where any rules are being followed. Humanitarian law is not being followed. International law is being abused every day in conflicts all around the world and in the conduct of a great many countries. And it is a much, much less stable time for most people outside a frame of countries that are relatively doing well economically compared to the rest. But for a great many people, the world is really tough.

And I think we need to understand that as Canadians. The risk that I see is that we become, as a country, and we become, as a world, too preoccupied with become as a world too preoccupied with number one, too preoccupied with ourselves and still not sufficiently thinking about what's happening out there. And the thing of my job, the most important part of my job I think is to, there's twofold, one is to tell the world about what we think and what Canadians are about. But secondly is to tell Canadians and to tell our government what the rest of the world is about. Well, let's do Exhibit A on perhaps the most unstable part of the world today or one of them anyway.

Russia-Ukraine. And if I may say, you gave a very powerful speech about that three years ago. Russia-Ukraine. Let's do a clip. Sheldon, if you would. We signed up to the charter because we agreed that we would subject our disputes to processes created by us over many, many arduous years and debates. What would be done in the event of a profound difference of opinion between states, we don't go to war. We go to the negotiating table. We go to court. We go to mediators. That's how we resolve disputes. The other way lies madness. As I say, a very powerful speech and you got a lot of good notices for yourself and for

Canada for making that speech at the United Nations and yet we're three plus years later and they're still dropping bombs on Ukraine and I wonder how often you go to work and think to yourself, I'm trying to make a difference but this damn thing just keeps getting worse and worse. Well, I mean first of all, I mean I know you might find this hard to believe but I actually don't go to work thinking about myself. I really don't go to work thinking about myself. I really don't. I really think that the world is in a tough spot. Ukrainians are in a tough spot.

Very difficult circumstances. Russians are continuing to drop bombs on them. The ability of the Ukrainian people and the Ukrainian government to respond to the crisis has been remarkable. They've created a capacity for self-defense that goes well beyond the assistance that any country, including the United States, is providing them.

They have an army of over 600,000 people who are out there fighting every day. And it is a very, very tough situation for them. I think we've seen efforts in the last few weeks about trying to find solutions. I think we have to understand one thing. And it's a hard thing for me to have to say. But it's perfectly apparent to me,

Vladimir Putin doesn't want peace. Vladimir Putin wants Ukraine. And that was true at the beginning of the war. It's true today. Mr. Putin is not interested in peace, he's not interested in a negotiated peace, he's only interested in an intimidated surrender and the Ukrainians have no intention of doing that and I hope and pray that enough countries will be continuing to support Ukraine in its struggle.

Because behind Russia, there's another big country, China, that's ready to supply Russia. And we have North Korea and we have Belarus and other countries that are supporting the Russians overtly with weapons and other things. We have no choice right now but to keep up the pressure to convince Mr. Putin that he's not going to get Ukraine, and he's not going to get the kind of what I would call intimidated surrender that he wants to get. That takes will. That takes Western will. It does.

Do we have it? I think Canada does. I think Mr. Prime Minister Carney has said that very clearly, and I know Canada does. I think Mr. Prime Minister Carney has said that very clearly and I know he does. I believe there are countries in Europe that do, that understand the nature of this conflict and understand the nature of the beast that we're dealing with and how challenging it is. People should not, people thought, you know, Russia was going to win this war in three days or three weeks. Didn't happen. They've lost over a million casualties, the Russians.

Extraordinary number. Incredible. And the Russian economy is not doing well at all. And yet it persists. And yet it persists because of the political direction from Putin. And I think increasingly we have to ask ourselves the question to what extent is China continuing to provide support for Russia that means they say okay we're just going to stick it out. It's a very tough proposition but I still think that surrender is the least

good option at this point and when you have somebody like Mr. Putin who's really not prepared to negotiate in ways that are recognizable as a negotiation, it makes it very hard. And I think, actually, that the President of the United States has had to come to terms with that. His thought that you could do all this in 24 hours or 48 hours, no. It's much more difficult than that.

Have you ever met him? I've met him a couple of times, but very briefly, just to shake his hand in a couple of social events. Not recently, not before he became a president. He seems to be emblematic, and I'm going to try to play this straight up the middle here. I don't want to be a smart aleck about this, but he seems to be emblematic of a kind of leader

in a kind of country that is becoming increasingly illiberal and we see more of them around the world. What is the attraction of that right now? Well, for me, none. Right. Nothing. Nothing about it is attractive as an option for our country or for any other country. But I think what it speaks to is people feeling anxiety, people feeling fear, people feeling uncertainty, and the economies of the world not working as well as people would like in

terms of giving, seeing the benefits of what's going on coming to them, and then turning to, usually it's a man, a strong man, who will provide them with security and who will provide them with direction and who will do whatever it is that strong men do. But the fact that so much of it is oppressive, runs contrary to the rule of law, is whimsical. This is true in all cases of what we see in the behavior of these, is that in fact creates more insecurity.

And the notion that you can buy the security of your own country at the expense of everybody else's insecurity is awful and I think is not sustainable. But I'm sure you were one of those leaders who, when the Cold War ended and Bill Clinton was president then and in the 1990s and the world looked like it was. I was premier then. I remember those days very well. Indeed you should.

And yet the world looked like it was embracing more and more the democratic option. And then something happened. And now it's going the other way. And I'm worried that, I mean, you and I are of a certain age where it may not flip back the other way before we're out of here. Well, I think it will.

I do think that the case for democracy is an excellent case. If democracy was my client, which in a sense it is in the United Nations, I think the case that we have to make for democracy is extremely powerful. It is, as Winston Churchill said, the worst form of government except for all the others. And it's all the others that we have to worry about. Democracy is not perfect. Sometimes decisions take a long time. Sometimes it's tough and it's hard.

But democracy is, to me, it's about freedom. It's about the rule of law. It's about creating greater and greater opportunities for equality and for the good things in life for more and more people. And I think the case can be made and has to continue to be made as to why the democratic idea is such a powerful idea. Thomas Jefferson used to refer to it as an infectious idea.

And at that time, during the time of the American Revolution, the French Revolution, it seemed to be. It seemed to be. And we do go through these periods when we make great strides in extending democracy. And now we're in one of those periods when autocracy and cronyism and kleptocracy and corruption and criminal activity in the centers of power

is becoming an increasing feature of modern day political life. And it's very tough. I would be a foolish person that would say, you know, don't you find it tough? I find it very tough. And I find it very tough, particularly when we think about the consequences for the people who are the most vulnerable in all of our societies.

And that's something that I think we all have to worry about. Speaking of vulnerable, how vulnerable is the United Nations right now, given the lack of support from this current administration in the United States? I don't think its existence is vulnerable. But I do think that its well-being is vulnerable. The UN will have to make serious reforms and changes to how it does business,

because the business model that they had was dependent on people paying their bills on time and certain countries paying a significant amount to help to build the infrastructure that we build around the world. And it's quite extensive when you look at it. It's a $75 billion operation, still short of money all the time. But that's the full footprint of the United Nations organizations with an S. Not the Secretariat, not the building we see on the East River, but the whole system throughout the world

That that budget has been cut by as much as we don't know exactly what has been cut by but we think it's somewhere between 30 and 35 percent that's that's a lot of money to be taking out of the system So we pay our bills on time. We pay them we pay them Faster than just about anybody else. We're in this we're in what we call the January Club We pay our bills in January good and that's good as I'm proud and proud to say we're paying on time We got Okay, cuz I've known you a long time. You knew this was coming I want to take advantage of what might be your last visit on this program to do just a little reminisce because I'm leaving No, I want to be clear about that. That is true. That is true. Because you've decided to leave.

Well, you know, it's a time to come and a time to go. As you've never figured out because you keep coming back and coming back. I keep coming back. Yeah. Well, about a decade and a half ago, you were the interim leader of the federal Liberal Party, which really looked like it was in desperate shape and on its last legs. And I will say this, you don't have to, I think you saved the party. I think the party would have been I mean it could have gone out of business had you not kept it alive long enough for Justin Trudeau to come along take it over win an election etc we talked on this program 13 years ago about your potentially seeking the permanent leadership of the Liberal

Party at the time which you declined to do could have done it but declined to do. Could have done it, but declined to do it. A lot of people were urging you to do it. Here's what you said, Sheldon, if you would. I've heard from a lot of people saying they're disappointed, and you know, you always hear from people who said, you know, I was going to support you, and I sort of said, well, you know, like, where the hell were you? So I mean, a lot of people who are there after the fact, but they're not necessarily there before.

So life will go on. Life has gone on but how often do you, I'm interested, how often do you revisit the decision not to seek the permanent leadership of the Liberals and give yourself a shot at being the only person in history to be both Premier of Ontario and Prime Minister of Canada? I know you're going to be shocked and you may not even believe me when I say this. I actually don't think about it a lot. But that suggests you do a little. Well, you know, of course a little.

Yes, of course. But don't play gotcha here. I think I made the right decision for the time. I believe that if I had run for the leadership in 2011, 2013, that I would have lost to Justin Trudeau. I think that's a reality. I could feel that wind, that wind and that wave. And I didn't, that wasn't the only reason I decided not to do it.

Part of it was that in the end, I felt that there were other things I wanted to do and that I felt that it was unlikely that I would win and I was not interested in running to sort of turn it into some kind of race between the old guy and the new guy and the old guy. I just wasn't, I didn't want to play that scenario, although there were some people who were keen

to get me in the race. And I said, well, are you gonna support me? They said, no. I said, well then that tells me something support me? They said, no. I said, well, then that tells me something. That tells me something. But one thing I can say for you for sure is I have no regrets at all about not having become prime minister.

It was always a long shot from where I was sitting. And I also think that there are so many ways to serve. The unhappiest people that I know in politics, and there are a lot of unhappy people who are either in or out of politics. Oh, I could have done this. I could have been a contender. Yada, yada.

I don't do that. And the reason I don't do that is because the lesson of my life, how I've lived my life, is that there are many, you get a lot of chances, and you get a lot of ways you can serve. And if you give it your best when you serve, at whatever you're doing, it's worthwhile, and it's fun, and it's good.

And I'm not making this up. This is not a paroration. It's something that I believe. I take you with your word. I believe it intensely. Of course you do. There's not just one job you can do in politics. And you've done many of them.

And if you don't get it, you've failed. Yeah. I don't feel that at all. OK. While we're on the subject of strange questions, when you announced you would not seek the permanent liberal leadership, you read a few lines from a Shakespearean sonnet, which you also quoted, I believe, when you stood down as leader of the Ontario New Democrats. Let's have a little listen to that. Sheldon, if you would.

The painful warrior, favored for fight, after a thousand victories once foiled, is from the book of honor raised quite, and all the rest forgot, for which he toiled then happy I that love and am beloved where I may not remove nor be removed. Merci. Thank you very much. I've heard a lot of farewell speeches in politics. I don't think I've ever heard anybody quote Shakespeare the way you do and that one in particular, what is it about that piece you like so much? Because the sonnet is number 25. The sonnet is about no matter what, because politics, you know, you think of the baubles of power, you think of the press, you think of the media, you think of the attraction,

the lights go on, you think it's there, you think it's real. But what I learned early on, that what was the realest things in my life, have been about my relationship with my wife, and my relationship with my family and my children, my brother and sister, my late brother, my family, and my friends, which I value. I value friendship a lot. I have many good friends in many different parts of my life.

And these are the things that matter. These are the things that last. These are the things that make a difference. And if you get caught up in the moment of thinking that power is the thing and the excitement of being, you know, where are you in the room, so and so and da, da, da, no. That's not the greatest thing in the world.

And that is what that sonnet is directly about. When I read it, I said, wow, that speaks so much to me. Because sometimes you get pulled away in politics. You get pulled away to, sorry, I've got another thing. I've got something really important to do. I'm more important. I'm here. I'm there.

Fact is, those aren't the things that actually matter in life in the end. It's not what matters. And so if you can survive that and still have a sense of yourself as a human being and having decent relationships with people, then you're away to the races. Then you've won. And that's what Shakespeare's saying.

How old was Gladstone when he became prime minister? I don't know. The only guy that talks about Gladstone as much as you is Jean Chrétien. How old was Gladstone? How old are you? How old are you, Bobby? How old was Gladstone when he became prime minister?

Well into his 80s. How old are you now? 76. A pup. A pup. So you're saying there's a shot. Anyway, you know, Premier, I always call you Premier, because you were.

We always appreciate the fact that when we put out the call to you, you answer, you come on our program, you have many times over these years, and it's great to see you again. And keep on keeping on. Thank you, Stephen. I just want to say, you know, you and I have had sparring contests, you've chaired debates.

I've been on shows when I wasn't comfortable in my own skin and I was just learning the ropes. So you and I have grown up together in this business and it's wonderful to be able to join you on this, at this moment in time, because you're just one of the great broadcasters. And by the way, your listeners should know we've become good friends.

So it's great. You never have been much of a good judge of character, though, right? There we go. Anyway, Premier, Ambassador, Bob Ray, thank you very much. Thank you. Good to be with you. Lovely.