The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - What is the Future of Canadian Manufacturing?

Episode Date: April 10, 2025

Canada's manufacturing sector faced challenges even before President Donald Trump imposed tariffs on goods made here. The overall sector has shrunk, both in its contribution to our economy, and the number of workers it employs. So, how should Canada support existing companies and their workers as tariffs take hold? And what's the way forward to building up a homegrown manufacturing sector that provides higher-skilled jobs and in-demand goods? See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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It's also a story about a system that is supposed to protect patients. From TVO Podcasts, I'm Krisha Collier, and this is The Oath. Subscribe today, wherever you listen. Canada's manufacturing sector faced challenges even before President Donald Trump imposed tariffs on goods made here.

The overall sector has shrunk, both in its contribution to our economy and the number of workers it employs. So how should Canada support existing companies and their workers as tariffs take hold? And what's the way forward to building up a homegrown manufacturing sector that provides higher skilled jobs and in-demand goods? Let's get into that with, in Vancouver, British Columbia, Jim Stanford, economist and director at the Center for Future Work. In Cambridge, Ontario, Michel Creutien,

Vice President of Research and Innovation at Conestoga College and a member of the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada. And here in our studio, Jason Myers, CEO at NGEN, that's Next Generation Manufacturing Canada, and Brendan Sweeney, Managing Director at the Trillium Network for Advanced Manufacturing. And it's good to have you two gentlemen here in our studio

and to our friends in Points Beyond. Jim and Michelle, thanks for joining us tonight on TVO. Want to bring up a chart just to inform our discussion here. and to our friends in Points Beyond, Jim and Michelle, thanks for joining us tonight on TVO. Wanna bring up a chart just to inform our discussion here. This is manufacturing employment in Canada since the late 1990s. Back then, manufacturing was a bit more than 15% of Canada's total workforce,

and for those listening on podcast, we're looking at a ski hill here. The numbers just go down, down, and down. By 2019, it had gone from more than 15% to roughly 9% where it sort of remains today. So let's start with the whys behind that. Jim Stanford, why did we lose all those jobs? Well, the steepest part of that ski hill

that you just showed, Steve, is the period of the early 2000s when manufacturing was really hammered by a number of factors, including a very, very high Canadian dollar. For a while, 2006, 2007, the Canadian dollar was trading for more than an American dollar, which doesn't make any sense given the relative level of costs and prices in the two countries, partly because of the big oil boom that was happening out west at that time.

That was during the maximum period of construction of oil sands facilities and so on. So that was the worst of it. Since then, we have stabilized and I think we should see that as a victory, frankly, the fact that manufacturing employment has stayed fairly steady as a share of total employment. That's in a labor market that's been growing quickly. So we actually have added in terms of numbers of jobs, we have added some jobs in there. So I do think that, you know, Trump aside for the moment,

Canada has done a pretty good job of maintaining manufacturing as a core part of our economy. Let me ask Michelle to follow up by characterizing the kinds of jobs that have been lost over the last two and a half to three decades. Yeah, that's interesting. I think that the kinds of jobs that have been lost over the last two and a half to three decades? Yeah, that's interesting. I think that the kinds of jobs actually span a variety of different skill domains.

And one of the things that certainly we hear in talking to manufacturers on a daily basis is they are seeking both skilled laborers and general laborers, but the skilled labor is becoming more and more difficult to find due to perceptions of work in the manufacturing industry, certainly other opportunities that are available to skilled workers

and a lack of young people pursuing careers in the skilled trades. And then in the general labor category, I think there's just really tough competition and salaries have a hard time keeping pace in a way that keeps Canadian manufacturing competitive from a price point perspective. All right, with that background in place, Jason, let me bring you in now. I'm not only going to ask you to put on the hat that

you're currently wearing, but you're the former head of the Canadian manufacturers and exporters as well, so you know this file all too well. Tariffs are taking hold. What are the best ways available, do you think, to support manufacturers and workers, given the new realities we're dealing with? Well, let's keep our fingers crossed that the tariff issue is just a short-term issue and is not going to be sustainable over the long term. Assuming that, the first thing we need to do is help companies stabilize employment. One of the reasons why Canadian productivity over that period that Jim was talking about from 2000-2010, one of the reasons why we didn't do too well in productivity is we kept a lot of workers employed, although we lost workers.

And one of the other factors here, remember remember is the opening up of the North American market to Chinese imports too during that period of time. So we, I think right now we face a real problem of course with the tariffs. It's giving companies a great opportunity to look for new markets, look for new customers, look for new suppliers, new technology partners as well. This is the time to invest in new technology, in innovation, in new markets. The problem is that with all the uncertainty, everybody's very, very cautious right now about their cash, and companies will need to invest their cash. That's where they look to invest.

But they're probably going to sit on it for now. They're going to sit on it for now. They're going to sit on it for now. So hopefully after this disruption passes, we've got a little bit more clarity. Then the question is, where do manufacturers go from there? And as you were saying, Steve, the sector was facing some major problems in terms of competitiveness, aging workforce, and huge competition from around the world, even before the tariff issue.

So I think in the long term, let's focus on that. Let's put the microscope on one sector, autos. Autos and trucks, cars, whatever you want to call it. How automated is all of that right now compared to, say, when we had 15% people working in the manufacturing sector two and a half decades ago? In certain assembly plants in Canada, in certain vehicle assembly plants in Canada, the updates, the investments in automation in facilities

that were already dictated by an assembly line are just incredible. And in the bigger Toyota plants that manufacture about nearly 40% of all the vehicles made in Canada today, there is AI, machine vision, all these fun technologies are right there on the shop floor. And this is what the production staff is engaging with. I don't know if those technologies have been rolled

out consistently across every single assembly plant. So there's possibilities. There's a lot that can be done. How much has been done? That's a question. And then there's a real diversity of technological, of automation approaches in the automotive parts industry.

But I'm wondering, is that part of the explanation behind why there are many fewer manufacturing jobs in Canada today? We've automated a lot more. We have, but at the same time, if you look at the companies that are making vehicles and making auto parts in Canada, They still employ a lot of people. So there would be other sectors, steel, chemical, paper, where output has grown and employment has decreased. But in automotive, it has stayed relatively consistent.

There have been gains. But those gains have led to other types of jobs within the sector. I've got to ask the former economist for the Canadian Auto Workers Union whether or not he opposes or understands or embraces the notion of more automation in the auto sector. Go ahead, Jim. Oh Steve, I think it's quite wrong to blame automation for what's happened in the decline of jobs. All of the modern assembly plants in Canada use a huge amount of robots and automation and this is a good thing. I would much rather have a plant that is automated and hires 3,000 people rather than one that uses the old technology and

hires 4,000. The reason being the one with old technology isn't going to stay open. The key reason why automotive employment has declined from that peak in the late 90s is just that we're making a lot less cars. In 1999 we made 3 million assembled vehicles in Canada, that's about twice as many as were sold in Canada and Canada ranked as the fourth largest automotive assembler in the world. Last year we made half that and yet we bought 2 million vehicles in Canada so we're now that, and yet we bought two million vehicles in Canada, so we're now producing much less than we buy in Canada. That's the main reason.

So automation and innovation and new tech is going to happen, and it has to happen, and it is one of the reasons why manufacturing employment as a share of the total is shrinking everywhere in the world. And I think certainly an enlightened, intelligent union like Unifor is not going to stand in the way of using the latest technology in our plants. What the union really wants is to make sure those plants are in Canada and given what Trump has done it's going to be more important than ever that the federal government, the provincial government, all the companies are laser focused on keeping

that footprint here in Canada. Well let me follow up with Michelle on that. Because of all of the uncertainty that we've been talking about now that these tariffs are coming on, do you think manufacturers are going to be, say, more reluctant to invest in the innovation and the automation that clearly is part of the future? Yeah, I think short-term, you know, as Jay was saying, the unfortunate consequence is that people are going

to hold back on investment and we're already seeing that. I do want to jump in on the question of the adoption of technology and what that means for employment. I think there are lots of examples in other jurisdictions around the world where embracing robotics automation and manufacturing has actually resulted in a net increase in jobs across the economy. So I think it isn't something to be scared of. In fact, unions and governments and companies partner together in countries in Europe to embrace and encourage the adoption of automation.

I think our real challenge in Canada is that we're not doing enough of it. We talk a lot about Canadian productivity and our gap or lagging productivity compared to other countries around the world. And I think part of that is a lack of adoption of technology. So we talked about automotive. Certainly another big manufacturing sector in Ontario is the food and beverage sector, who are embracing automation at about the same rate as the automotive industry. But it's still relatively low compared

to other countries around the world. So I think Canada was last ranked 15th of 20 countries when it comes to the adoption of robotics technologies. And that was actually moving down since 2019. So I think that's an area that we need to look at. And nothing like a good crisis to give us the opportunity to focus inwards and think about what we might want to do when the current season of tariffs, etc., has hopefully passed. So, yeah, to answer your question, short-term, I think people are going to hold back on investing, but I really think that governments in particular

should be looking at how we encourage that investment now and in the future. Jason, I should get you to weigh in on what role you think automation and AI have played in that ski hill graph that we saw earlier. Well one of the things I think we have to take into consideration is that the automotive or the automotive and the manufacturing value chain in Canada is a lot bigger than what that graph shows. All of the technology, all of the engineering services, all of the business and financial services that go into manufacturing, that footprint is much larger, probably over twice as twice the size of the employment in manufacturing itself. So I think that's

very important but now, especially with AI and all of these other technologies that are coming into play, automation is important. We have disproportionately more small companies in Canada's manufacturing sector, more small companies proportionately than the US does. So we have to understand the sector.

We have to understand that Canadian manufacturers, by and large, create value through much more customized product. They're focused on value. They're not focused on volume. The way we measure manufacturing is outdated. It's 40 years old. It's based on manufacturers producing stuff. Well, today, the nature of the business

is about producing solutions. And that means it's manufacturing, but it's also technology, and it's also services. And so let's take a look at that and how AI, how some of these new technologies fit into that. So if we're about creating solutions as opposed to products, should we not obsess so much about these numbers we're looking at? I think we need

to look at them in the context of a modern manufacturing economy where the footprint is much greater than these numbers alone. We need to produce products there, but today because of some of the advances in AI, for example, every product, every machine, every process is a data platform. And today, you can read the data, the services that you're providing from all of that digital technology. That's a source of value for companies improving product,

improving their own processes, improving delivery times, improving the quality of the product. There's a company here in Ontario called Shimco and they manufacture the most basic product you could ever think of, a metal shim. This is what you put in between parts to stop them vibrating. But they put a sensor in that shim. And their business is not making the shim. Their business is reading the outcome of the sensor,

the vibration, and they're a service company that's doing a lot of business with the aerospace industry right now because of all of the products. You want to measure the vibration in an airplane. So you know we need to think differently about what how manufacturing services and technology all work together. AI for instance is allowing companies to figure out where they have problems in their processes, where they can add value to their products. I think

we're at really the cusp of a real unique revolution in manufacturing where if companies can jump onto this, they can continue to drive what has been fundamental to Canadian manufacturers and that's producing value for customers. It's not getting product out the door. Well, okay, let me do an example here with Brendan because I have seen numerous announcements by the Prime Minister of Canada and the previous prime minister

and the current premier of Ontario and his economic development minister opening up new facilities for EV manufacturing here in the province of Ontario. Given the regimen that we're going through right now, tariffs and all of the nonsense from south of the border, do you think we are in the midst potentially of an existential crisis as it relates to all of that investment in EV manufacturing in Ontario that we have committed to?

Probably not. You say probably not. Probably not because I can't I don't have a crystal ball. He's an economist. The trajectory of the world is going electric. There may be a blip in North America, but from everything we understand in the 2030s, in the 2040s, in the 2050s, the mix of vehicles will have more electric vehicles. Will we hit one? That's not the existential crisis I'm thinking of, though. I'm thinking of tariffs repatriating all of what

we've got here to the United States, which is what Trump wants. I don't think the United States could handle it all. I don't think they have the workforce. I think that companies chose to locate these facilities in Ontario for a good reason and not the United States and not Tulsa, Oklahoma for a similarly good reason. Part of that is talent.

Part of that is we have a mature ecosystem. The manufacturing ecosystem in the GTHA extended out to Waterloo, it is just absolutely incredible. It's one of only two major metropolitan areas in North America that has full-scale aircraft and full-scale automotive assembly. Dallas-Fort Worth is the other one. It's the only one that adds to that integrated steelmaking, the ability to make nuclear reactors, biopharma,

and we're forgetting one of the largest, if not the largest, segment of manufacturing in the area, and that's food. So all of that provides hard to measure but just incredible value to anyone who's locating in Simcoe County or in St. Thomas. Okay, I get you. Is it... Our automotive industry has been in a bit of an existential crisis since the 1960s.

And we always kind of come out on the other side of it. So I think we'll come out somewhere good. It might be a little bit different. It might be a little bit more delayed than what we had anticipated a couple of years ago when we were talking about it on this show. But will we be making batteries for vehicles in 2030 at three or more facilities in Canada?

Most likely. What did you say? Most likely. I don't have that crystal ball. I still want to yes, but okay, most likely I guess we'll have to take it right now. Steve, could I add in here too? Last week in the midst of all this chaos, Siemens made an announcement they were investing 150 million dollars in the establishment of a global EV battery research hub here in in southern Ontario. They wouldn't do that if they weren't serious and if they weren't taking

advantage of as Brendan says of the skills of the great innovation ecosystem that we have in this province. Fair enough but okay I'm gonna get Jim Stanford back in here now because of, it didn't take too long once Trump threatened his tariffs for the auto manufacturers in the province of Ontario to start laying people off, understandably, if there's not going to be. Anyway, you know where I'm going with this.

What's happening with employment insurance right now, Jim? What needs to change to take account of the new reality we're dealing with? Okay, Steve, I will answer that question, but I've got to jump in on the EV discussion you were just having. Because I share Brendan and Jason's confidence that we've got the amazing makings of a world-leading EV industry, and the world is going to EVs, no doubt about it. But the industry is going to need some forceful and targeted help to get through the next two to three to four years, however long this takes. Because in addition to Trump's tariffs, he has also pulled the plug, to use an

analogy, on the whole Joe Biden program to accelerate EV development in the US. You know, Trump was on TV yesterday holding up lumps of coal saying we're going to support the coal industry, instead of trying to move forward and position America at the forefront of that EV revolution. So Canada is very well positioned long term, but we are going to need some very focused assistance. And that includes focused assistance for the workers. So I will answer your question now. EI is still full of holes. We knew it was full of

holes when the pandemic hit a few years ago. That's why the government had to move to the CERB vision of emergency payments directly to workers and so on. There was a promise to fix EI and make sure that more unemployed people could qualify for the benefits and it hasn't been fulfilled. So we are in a situation where we're seeing you know temporary layoffs at plants that are idled waiting to see what happens with the tariffs, but potentially longer-term layoffs if we get closures or restructurings happening. So we're gonna need, I think, a whole slate of improvements in EI, eliminating the waiting period. The government, to its credit, has done that, increasing the

level of benefits. A key thing we should fix is how EI is integrated with training. Right now if you go into a vocational college or back to university or something you would lose your EI benefits and that doesn't make sense. We want people to adjust and learn new skills so we've got to fix that problem where people aren't financially penalized for taking the leap back in. So EI is going to be a vital tool in the next year or two as we go through this and we've got to fix it. Michelle, we've been talking a lot of auto sector here so far, but I guess I should ask

what else are we really good at making in this province? Well, that's a good question. So, and we do tend to talk about auto a lot more talking about manufacturing, but as I alluded to earlier, food and beverage is almost equal size. I think they out took automotive manufacturing slightly during the pandemic, but an equally important sector, particularly in Ontario, where we have the largest cluster of food and beverage processing in Canada. So that's a really important one, lots of jobs and lots of really great innovation and opportunity in that space.

I think we also, obviously there's aerospace, which we would include in kind of transportation. And let's not forget chemicals, rubbers, plastics, and also biopharmaceuticals and pharmaceutical manufacturing. So I think there's been an interesting storyline in Sarnia over the last number of years, with a shift to looking at biochemicals and biofuels. And I think that stands out as an example of what Ontarians and Canadians can do when faced with a challenge, right, is pivot, is look at where we add value. And as Jay was alluding to earlier, this idea of focusing not just on producing stuff and as much stuff as we can get out the door, but really looking for opportunities to add value,

to leverage data, to embrace technology in order to create something meaningful for a customer, not just a lot of things for a customer. Can I just ask you two here, did you both go to this conference in Germany, this industrial conference in Hanover? We were talking about it before we went on the air here. We did. Okay.

I mean, presumably you picked up some sense in the rooms that you were in about what kind of reputation we have as it relates to manufacturing in this country. What are you hearing? So, first of all, Canada was a partner country and officially invited by Chancellor Schulz to participate. The reason was because the Germans know that Canada is a source of tremendous industrial technology here. Everything from robotics to AI, of course, to quantum to advanced materials. That's why we were invited there.

There were a thousand Canadians in Hanover last week. They were looking for new customers, new suppliers, new innovation partners, new investors. And I think that's exactly the type of reaction. Everybody was very positive. When you had Chancellor Schultz get up and said, we believe in Canada, he got a standing ovation mainly from the Canadians, of course, there. But it's so important and to see Canada as a reliable trading partner, but also a reliable supplier and a reliable customer for German businesses as well.

Well Brendan, I don't want to be a killjoy here, but I'll get you to react to another chart we're going to put up. This one is going to show the decline in value added manufacturing as a percentage of our economy here in Canada. And again, for those listening on podcast, I'm going to describe the same ski hill again. It was once upon a time, I guess as high as 17% in the late 1990s, but it's around 9% today. So how do Canadian manufacturers reverse that trend and increase the sale of value added

products? I think that we really target and focus on higher value industries or industries with the potential to be high value. I think about space, I think about bio-pharma as two industries that are at once highly productive, high value, high tech, and that really fit the profile of the people that are graduating

from Canadian universities and Canadian colleges. People in Hamilton and Sault Ste. Marie will want to know if steel is on your list as well. Steel's already there. And we're investing, and some of that steel might go to the space industry So steel is on that list But biofarm more biofarm a more space, you know the likelihood we will get another integrated steel mill in the next

Decade or two is low, but the likelihood that We will invest at the fastco and at Algoma, and that's what I'm going to call them. Even though they're not called that anymore, but no. I'm with you. Use the old name. Well, we are investing there. And the ArcelorMiddle, DeFascoMill,

that is that company's flagship mill outside of, I guess, Luxembourg, outside of the EU. And I think it will remain that way. That's probably the best steel mill in North America. Okay, Michelle, your post-secondary institution, obviously, is in the business of trying to prepare young people for the jobs of the next generation, and I guess I want to know what kind of skills,

as it relates to manufacturing, do you think they're going to need to have as processes become more complex and sophisticated going forward? Yeah, so I think we see that there's certainly continued demand for skilled trades workers. So across, you know, welding, machinists, those types of roles are highly coveted. And there's still a gap in manufacturing industry today. highly coveted and there's still a gap in manufacturing industry today. But then I think we see more integration as we've all been talking about of technology, whether anything from robotics to AI, and that requires a different skillset. And so, you know, we and others, all the post-secondaries in Ontario, by the

way, Ontario has an absolutely world-class, completely outstanding post-secondary education system, and we are very blessed. And that is one of the core reasons why companies choose to invest here is because of the talent that we produce. So I think we'll see across our STEM programming, so engineering, engineering, technologists, those students, those graduates will be, will be, I was gonna say looking, but it's actually more of it the other way around companies will be looking to those graduates to fill graduates to fill their ranks. And I think we have a challenge there a little bit in when

we talk about the labour shortage in manufacturing. And there was, Jim made a great point that I want to come back to about the period that we're in right now where we see layoffs and potentially workers having to access employment insurance benefits. This is an amazing time to look at the long between 80 and 200,000 vacancies in the manufacturing industry across Canada, depending on who you ask. What an amazing time to help those workers reskill or upskill to fill those vacancies. So I think there's Jim's absolutely right. There's a fix that we could look at there. Excuse me. And I think that the industry, so we're creating all these graduates,

we have amazing people, we have an amazing education system. And the question then becomes, why aren't those people choosing jobs in the manufacturing sector? And there, I think we have some work to do around the perception of jobs in manufacturing and some work to do on the diversity end,

or to be honest. So we have women, for example, as 50% of the workforce and less than 30% of the manufacturing workforce. And that number has been flat for basically, certainly since I've started talking about this, so a couple of decades. So we have the talent, there's no question. I think there's a bit of a matchmaking exercise

that all of us need to engage in. And there's some great work going on. I just think we need to stay the course and not underestimate how long it takes to change hearts and minds when it comes to perceptions of what jobs and manufacturing can be because there's no question that they are not what they might have been in the past. They are high tech, they are exciting, they are embracing the latest technologies. And these are careers really that young people should be wanting to go into. Well, Jim Stanford's been coming on this program

for a couple of decades trumpeting what you just said. So I know he is, you're preaching to the choir with him, but Jim, what I wanna ask you is, if we wanted to create a national industrial strategy in this country and we wanted to support a kind of an advanced manufacturing sector going forward, give me some sense about what that looks like. We have got such a toolbox of different policies and levers and regulations that we could apply in manufacturing.

And when we look around the world at countries that have been successful in this mission of using active industrial policy to support high-value industries within their own jurisdictions, we've got lots of experience to draw on. You know, in Canada, our auto and aerospace and pharmaceutical industries here are the result of active policy, active national strategies to bring those industries here. In auto, it started with the AutoPact, of course. With aerospace, we had everything from public ownership of aerospace manufacturing to proactive procurement strategies to make sure that we bought Canadian-made aircraft for our airlines and our military. In pharmaceuticals, it was all tied in a sort of a quid pro quo with

some of the patent rules. So almost anything that government does, you can find a way to make a connection to increasing domestic value added. And so I think we're going to need, we're going to need something like that. Because even if Mr. Trump changed his mind tomorrow morning about this whole tariff thing, we've still got a situation where nobody can count on America being the biggest asset for an investment in Canada. You know, we used to say, come to Canada, we're next to America, and you can sell all your stuff

there. And nobody believes that anymore. So we are going to have to have, I'd say, a multi-dimensional industrial policy strategy to make sure that all of those value-added industries in Canada are able to survive Trump, first of all, but even better, then go on and grow and we'll end up, if we do this right, we'll end up with a stronger, more self-sufficient economy. Jason, in our last couple of minutes here, it's probably a good idea to steal ideas from other countries that would be doing things well that we want to do well as well. What ideas do you see out there from other countries that we ought to rip off?

Well, I think particularly the European countries, and Germany in particular, their focus on apprenticeships, their focus on young people. But you know, every country in the world is struggling right now with this revolution in manufacturing. How do we, particularly small companies, how do we accelerate the adoption of technology and do it successfully? Because a lot of you can invest in it in a technology and but it's that that's a totally different question than can you manage that technology successfully can you actually generate value as a result of that so you know I think there are some very significant programs around labor force development maybe one of the

things that we should be stealing is a real focus on making stuff, a real focus on manufacturing, or in advanced manufacturing, seeing that as a cornerstone of economic development. Have we gotten away from that? Oh, I think we have. I think it's the last 20 years that we've moved away from manufacturing.

We've put a huge emphasis on tech, and we've got some of the best tech companies in the world here in Ontario. What we need to do is match those tech companies up with manufacturing customers and accelerate this adoption of Canadian-made technology here in Ontario. You know, there aren't very many places in the world with this concentration of leading-edge research of technology, large and small companies,

startup ecosystems as Michelle was saying of this great skills base and the colleges that provide that and the variety of manufacturing that the Brendan was saying. How can we bring all of this together, drive more collaboration, make this work, and actually create an economy in the future that really is leveraging up all of these great assets that we've got? And one other thing, Steve, going back to this graph, I don't believe for a minute that real GDP is a good measure of manufacturing activity.

You add more value in your product, you add more value in your service, and that discounts it as inflation. We are not measuring the impact of manufacturing in this country or the manufacturing supply value chain around this really important sector. Jim, in our last minute, I'm going to ask you a question you're not going to like at all, but what the heck? Let's have a little fun here. Do you, are you prepared to give Donald Trump some credit

in as much as he has really put the accent back on reshoring manufacturing to this continent, and we've been getting away from it for the last many decades? I don't think so, Steve. I don't give him credit because he's lying about it. First of all, as Brendan pointed out earlier, they cannot quote unquote,

reshore all that stuff back to America. They don't have the space, they don't have the factories, they don't have the capital, they don't have the people to do it. And in most of it, they don't want it. Most of the things that they're talking about in terms of work, especially more labor intensive work that's done elsewhere in the world,

America as an economy doesn't want that. They've got 4% unemployment, they are not in a depression, at least not yet. So this idea that they need to get everything back is wrong or that they can bring it back. Secondly, the idea that it was ever theirs to start with is false. The jobs we have in manufacturing in Canada, we didn't steal from America. We were manufacturing long before we ever had a trade agreement or

an auto pack. We made cars back in the 1900s. So they weren't America's jobs to take back. He is just playing for a domestic political audience and pushing these buttons about how America is supposedly mistreated and I'm the guy who's gonna put America first. That reshoring narrative is not going to work, and it's not even what his motivation is. So this is where we have to, I think, have the confidence as a country to say we don't – you know, we are going to export to America, and this is important to us, but we have got the capacity to build a self-reliant, high-value, productive, prosperous economy on our own, and reject Trump's false narrative here.

Get off the fence and tell me what you really think. Someday, Steve, I'm going to tell you what I really think about this. Exactly. Exactly. Great discussion, everybody. Thanks so much for coming on to TVO tonight. Thanks to Jason Myers from Next Generation Manufacturing Canada, Brendan Sweeney from The Trillium Network, Michel Creutien, Conestoga College,

Jim Stanford, who's telling it like it is, at the Center for Future Work on the left coast in Vancouver. Thanks so much, everybody. Have a grand day. Thank you, Steve. Thank you. Thank you.