The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - What Makes Ontario... Ontario?

Episode Date: June 2, 2026

The Honourable Elizabeth Dowdeswell reflects on her time as Ontario's lieutenant governor and what defines the province she served for nearly a decade. Then, more than 60 years after Canada adopted the Maple Leaf and Ontario unveiled its own flag, why didn't everyone rally around these new symbols? #onpoli's John Michael McGrath explains. And we visit Salem Chapel in St. Catharines, where Harriet Tubman once worshipped and where the legacy of the Underground Railroad and the fight for civil rights still resonates today.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Your gift is matched up to $100,000. Hi, I'm Nam Kiwanuka, host and producer of Mistreated, a podcast on women's health. There just hasn't been a lot of money put into researching women's health issues. If women are in pain, it's hysteria, it's an emotional issue. And this is what we see consistently. Women's Health is not taken seriously. How did we get here?

Find us wherever you get your podcast, and be sure to check out the video version of the show on the TVO Today YouTube channel. Hope to see you then. Can you hear this without singing along? It's pretty catchy, right? And it's no surprise that a place to stand, a place to grow,

has been Ontario's unofficial anthem ever since the Robarts government commissioned it for Expo 67. And there's no better day to hear it than today because June 1st is officially Ontario Day. Now, if you're thinking, wait, Jan, what Ontario has a day? Fair enough. The government says it's, quote, a time to celebrate everything that makes Ontario strong and unique. Which raises an interesting question. What exactly makes Ontario, Ontario? Well, we're going to look for some answers. We sit down with the Honorable Elizabeth Dowdwell, Ontario's former lieutenant

governor to hear what years of public service taught her about the province and the people who call it home. Then, two years before Expo 67 and that catchy song, Premier John Robarts gave us something else that still defines the province to this day, our first official flag. We look at why we settled on this one and why the issue was so controversial. And finally, we take you to St. Catharines to find out how a place of worship and activism helped shape on take. and the fight for civil rights. Welcome to the rundown. The Honorable Elizabeth Doudswell served as Ontario's lieutenant governor from 2014 to

2023, giving her a unique perspective on this province and what defines it. Great to have you in our studios on Ontario Day. How are you doing? Thank you very much and happy Ontario Day. Well, let's talk about it. Ontario Day was first introduced in 2021, but a lot of people have criticized it for being cosmetic. And I am curious. How do you think it's connecting with people the way it was meant to be? Is it doing what it's supposed to do? Well, it's interesting that you ask that question because I did my own personal poll. I asked about 10 people about Ontario Day and not one of them answered. They knew it. So that gave me an immediate, an immediate

understanding of how well-known it is. Why do you think that is? I don't know. why it is. I do know that if you ask the question, if you ask people to tell their stories, then there are lots of stories about Ontarians. One of the things that you mentioned in that poll of 10 people, when you asked about Ontario Day, I'm wondering, curious, did they ever ask, is it a public holiday, Ontario Day? Yes. And I'm curious if it is not a public holiday in the sense that we get the day off. But if that was the case, do you think people, it would have more attention towards it? I don't know.

Not trying to get a day off here. Indeed. I don't know whether that would make a difference. I do know, however, that the importance of storytelling is under-recognized. In many ways, it's the first step to creating empathy. When you listen to someone, hear their story, you start to walk in their shoes, it creates neighbors and neighborhoods. You know, when I first started as lieutenant governor, very early on, I was audacious enough to say, we don't tell our stories very well. We don't tell them to our neighbors.

We don't tell them to the communities next door. and we have much to learn from each other. So I'm going to call myself the storyteller-in-chief, which I did, and it really resonated with people. So much so that when it came to Canada 150, one of the things we did was to ask 150 Ontarians to tell us what it meant to be an Ontario in Canada. And these were stories, people you'd know,

people you don't know, but they were stories that were like an extended tweet. They weren't that long. But it gave such a wonderful impression of who the people in this province really are, what their aspirations are, what they want to achieve, particularly for their kids. Well, speaking of stories, I want to talk about a story that's taking a lot of headlines right now. It's not happening in this province, happening in Alberta, with a referendum question. And I want to ask you about sort of Ontario's place in the Federation. How do you see Ontario when we look at the rest of the provinces and territories here? I think Ontarians are amazing people.

They do have a sense of history. They certainly have a sense of diversity. And when I asked Ontarians for one word, the one word that often came up was diversity. And at that time, and that was before COVID, which changed a lot of things, at that time, they were very proud of being part of Canada from the outset. And they were very proud that we were able to welcome people from all over the world. They saw it as a strength, not as a weakness. And so I think Ontarians are very proud Canadians. and that's what I think is important.

A country is more than the sum of its parts. And so I love to hear the stories of immigrants. I too am an immigrant. And I love to hear the story of what it means to belong to a country like ours. Your Honor, when I talk about where I'm from, I usually mention I'm from the West End. Most people, I know, do the same thing.

either they're from Ottawa or Windsor or if they're from Sue St. Marie, they'll say that they're just from the north. And I am curious, it makes me wonder if that's because it's hard to define what it means to be from Ontario. Does this province have an identity crisis? I think it's situational. I think depending on where you are, your first response might be, I'm a Canadian. Yes. And then people will say, well, which part of Canada do you live in? because it's so huge, and then they will say,

you know, I'm from Ontario. But it's interesting you make the point about locality, proximity, because I think that is a very important one. My whole time as Lieutenant Governor, I focused a lot on local government. We tend to think that it's really the province and the federal government who make all the big decisions. But you know, it's local government

that is closest to citizens. That's where you know if your garbage gets picked up. If there's a building that goes up, if the potholes in the road don't get fixed, you look to your local government to really be a part of your day-to-day life. And so it doesn't surprise me that people eventually talk about their hometown.

When I think about Saskatchewan, where I grew up, I think about being taught resilience. I thought about the community, the learning to be a community builder. The whole notion of living together was very much a part of small town Saskatchewan. I suspect that's the same thing in small town Ontario. I want to talk about a new prize named after you called the Elizabeth Dowswell Award for Advancing Democracy. through education. Can you tell us a little bit about it?

It's a wonderful prize. I'm so grateful to the government of Ontario. It has been a tradition to leave a legacy of some kind. And in my case, it was during my time that I really became aware of the fragmentation in society, the attacks on something we hold so precious, as democracy and the institutions that support it, be it the media, the judiciary, civil society. And I realized that most of us in our lives could point to a teacher who had an influence on us.

And I wanted to ultimately acknowledge the profound role that teachers can play, not just in teaching in civics classes, in history classes, the mechanics of democracy, but in really helping people understand from a very early age that democracy is so much more than a vote. It really is how we set the ground rules for how we're going to learn to live together. And any teacher in any community can bring that respect and civility into a classroom, can point to ways in which even small children can cooperate, collaborate, and help make their neighborhoods better. Sometimes it's through actually working on environmental issues.

Sometimes it's through volunteering to be on a mayor's youth council, for example. But it's learning to be engaged in making the decisions around you. And so I was delighted when the government agreed to this. It's an award for a couple of teachers, and it can be nominated by students, by other teachers, by people in the community. I'm just really excited to see who people recognize in their communities as being community builders.

And really, it's never too much. it's never too young. It's never too early to start teaching and demonstrating firsthand with creativity how you can be a part of your community. You mentioned teaching and I am curious, does the current lieutenant governor, the Honorable Edith Dumont, ever come to you for advice? Are you giving her any lessons in the role? I would never give lessons. In many ways there are some ground rules that you follow, but a lot of it is really up to the individual as to what you focus on, how you do it,

and above all, you have to be yourself. You have to be authentic. I loved, I adored the job, and I adored it because I could see so much potential in what we could do. We tried to create a safe space for conversation, but I also was in every corner of this province, every political riding.

And I don't think there are very many who have had the privilege of being able to see people where they live, work and play and going to them rather than having them come to us. Your Honor, you mentioned you were born in Belfast in Northern Ireland, moved to Saskatchewan as a child. I want to know, to what extent did your immigration experience, experience, shape your views on democracy. As you mentioned, you know, in this day and age at this

moment, it's quite fragile. But I am curious what that immigration experience was like and how it shaped it. You know, there are three things that really shape my view of democracy, and one is being an immigrant. I'm not sure I realized it growing up, but I certainly realized it in the Toronto area. When you, when you, when you, when you, tell people who come to the province that in the greater Toronto area, more than half of the people here were not born in Canada. That's an amazing story. And very often diplomats would say to me, how can that be? How does it work? And it's worked for a very long time. And I hope it will continue. Because as I said earlier, I think it really is a strength. We are an interdependent,

mutually interdependent world. And increasingly, whether it's health issues, environmental issues, we realize that we can't wall ourselves off. We can't just close the doors and say, we'll solve our own problems. We do need to work to solve our own problems, absolutely. But we also need to understand that we're also international citizens. With over 6,500 engagements during your term, you have seen so much of this province.

And so we thought we'd get some quick recommendations from you, from your favorite things that you have seen and done in this province. What do you think? Do you mind playing ball here? I'm happy to do that. But it's really hard because I have to pick. I have been so many places. I love so many places.

Well, let's start with it. One place in Ontario that everyone should visit. Well, let me not say one place, but everyone should go to, small town, Ontario, to be able to walk along the three blocks of their main street and discover stores, experiences that you've never had before, or to go to the local market. Can I ask then, the most underrated place in Ontario, a town that you visited that you think, you know what, people should see this?

Do you know that we have a lilac festival in Warpworth? Okay, Workworth. That's a small town. Okay. And I was invited once to go to the Lilac Festival, which I did. Your favorite cultural institution in Ontario? Well, culture and the arts, particularly music, are just part of my being. I'd have to say two right now because I sit on the boards of them.

One is the Toronto Symphony. I grew up in a house full of music, so that would be one. And the other one is the Aga Khan Museum, because it really is a museum. that aims to bring out the best in society. Superior, Huron, Erie, or Ontario. I'm leaving Michigan out of this list for obvious reasons of those. Which is your favorite Great Lake? Well, it has to be Ontario.

Okay. But I must say that Superior just fascinates me because it is so huge. You look out and you don't... It's a ocean. It feels like a ocean. Exactly. Favorite Ontarian, dead or alive? Oh my goodness.

My favorite Ontarian, I think about artists like Margaret Atwood, who represent us so well. I think about photographers like Ed Bertinsky, whose amazing, large-scale photography, makes us see things that we never would have seen. And I think of political leaders of all kinds who have represented us, but those who stick in my mind are ones

who wouldn't see themselves as politicians but see themselves as public servants. One last question, only because we love sports on here. Is there a favorite sports team, whether it's, you know... Do you know, I think you must have asked Steve Pagan that? You do. Because one of my very first... first interviews with Steve, he was trying to be mischievous. And he said, you know, your honor,

which is your favorite, he said, you love football. And I do. And he said, so which is your favorite team? And I said to him, well, you know, there are three teams in Ontario. And I'm not supposed to be partisan. So I can't choose. Perhaps I'll just go back to my Saskatchewan Rough Riders. Fair enough. All right. Your Honor, it's a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us on Ontario Day on their end. Thank you so much. My pleasure and I'm so glad that more people will now know there is an Ontario Day. Thank you for the work that TVO does every day. I really appreciate. Thank you. Thank you. More than 60 years ago, Canada adopted the Maple Leaf in Ontario got its own flag, but not everyone wanted to rally around them. Here's on Polly's John Michael McGrath.

A liberal prime minister, a conservative premier, a historical feud, and the creation of the Ontario flag. Welcome to your on-pally minute. Or two. In the early 1960s, Ontarians didn't have a provincial flag or a national flag. Then, in 1965, we suddenly got both. How we got there involves multiple governments, different political parties, and Canada's uneasy relationship with its colonial past. Just because Canada didn't have a flag doesn't mean the country. went naked. Buildings, soldiers, and sailors used a version of the British Red Ensign. In 1963,

Liberal Prime Minister Lester Pearson decided Canada needed to chart its own course and kicked off Canada's first official flag design. He wanted the new flag to dispense with historical reminders of our ties to Great Britain. It was time for us to move out of our parents' basement. The country eventually settled on the single Maple Leaf and the red bars you know today. That was controversial in Ontario, where attachment to Great Britain was strongest and where many families had lost loved ones who fought and died under the Red Ensign. As the federal liberals homed in on Maple Leaf, Ontario Kramer John Robarts started his own flag-making process.

The province quickly landed on what is basically the old flag, but with Ontario's shield of arms on the side. Robarts said this wasn't meant to conflict with a new Canadian flag, but to honor Ontario's own history and heritage. So, thanks to a liberal prime minister who wanted to break with the symbols of Canada's past, and a conservative premier who wanted to retain them, Canada and its largest province adopted two very different flags, just months apart.

How'd I do for time? How you're good. St. Catharines is home to a small building with a big history. We had to Salem Chapel, where Harriet Tubman once worshipped, and where the Underground Railroad and the fight for civil rights left a very real mark. My name is Rochelle Bush. I'm the trustee as well as resident historian of the Salem Chapel, British Methodist Episcopal Church, Harriet Tubman Underground Railroad National Historic Site. I'm also the owner and operator of Tubman Tours Canada.

Welcome to the Salem Chapel. Rochelle, thank you so much for having us here at the Salem Chapel. We are sitting in a place that has a lot of history. Can you tell me why this place is so special to this area? Well, the Salem Chapel was built by African American Freedom Seekers in 1855, so it's part of the British Methodist Episcopal Churches of Canada. And actually, it's the third site in the city of St. Catharines. The first one was constructed in the Queenston Street area. We know it as Richard Pierpoint Park area, and he was the first black person to settle in St. Catharines.

So the first one was constructed around 1820. We were relocated over to this neighborhood. 1835, we built the second church. And then 1855, we built this third church. So in terms of this place right now, it's quiet. It is very calm as we were sitting in silence here. But this is a very active church. There is still worship that happens here, correct? Yes. So we still continue as a religious institution first and foremost. So we meet every Sunday for worship service. It is an active church, but we have less than a dozen members.

And is everyone welcome here? Oh, the church today is very diverse. So not all members are freedom-seeker descendants like myself. and we do have white members as well. I want to now talk about the congregation of the past. It's the most famous parishioner. Who was it? Harriet Tubman. Tell me about it. So Harriet Tubman is our most famous member.

So Tubman was a freedom fighter in the 19th century. She helped liberate enslaved African Americans and she guided them here to St. Catharines. Today she's regarded as the iconic figure of the Underground Railroad. And what's most important about Harriet Tubman is she's the first person, African-American to be designated a person of national importance in two countries in Canada as well as the United States. Her journey from the south up here sometimes is in question as to where she ended up. Can you walk me through that journey? How did she get to St. Catharines and why St. Catharines?

So Harriet Tubman was born in Dorchester County, Maryland, and she escaped from enslavement in 1849 and made her way to Philadelphia. After the U.S. government passed the 1850 Fugitive Slave Act, she had to extend her underground railroad route to British soil. So this was a British colony at the time, of course, and this is where African Americans would be granted or guaranteed their safety and freedom. Because the North, after the 1850 fugitive slave law passed, that was turned into a haven for slave catchers. So the network of people that she was connected with in Philadelphia, they were already connected with abolitionists here in St. Catharines. So she came out of the eastern shore along the eastern line and ended here because St. Catherine,

according to Frederick Douglass in 1881, this was the last stop for the Underground Railroad from the Eastern Line. Well, I want to talk about Frederick Douglass. He worshipped here as well. This was a place where there were meetings that were happening. Tell me about his significance and his history here in this building. So we have Frederick Douglass on record coming through St. Catherine's nine times. And as a member of the African Methodist Episcopal Church, so let's be real.

In the 19th century, religion was your currency. So you attended service. So this was a safe space for African Americans. And if he was in St. Catharines, then he would have worshipped here because he was already Methodist. But that would not have negated the fact that he may have went down to Zion Baptist Church, which was a Baptist church as well. You actually have a very special connection, a family connection to this chapel. Tell me about that.

Yes. So my connection to the Salem Chapel is my two-time great-grandfather on my maternal side. So my mother's side was the minister in charge here for a period of time when Harriet Tabman was here. So he was an African Methodist Episcopal minister, freeborn in Columbia, South Carolina. And then he made his way here to Canada, settled in St. Catharines, and became a member and minister of this church. So great, great, great. No, two greats. Two great.

Oh, wow. In terms of that knowledge and knowing that family connection, how was that told to you? How did you know, was that something that you went on a personal journey or was that? That's a great question. And yes, I did go on a personal journey. We were always told that he was part of the Underground Railroad. 2005, it just didn't make sense to me as to why he could be traveling all over the place. So in Ontario as well as Michigan, Kentucky, New York City, because they were stump preachers at the time, missionaries as well. Turns out he was a free black man, so that's how he was able to do it.

He wasn't part of the Underground Railroad. Very interesting. Tubman Tours Canada. Yes. Adding Canada at the end, was that a deliberate move? Yes, it was a deliberate move. So I added Canada at the end of the tour company name so that people would be aware of the fact that she did have a connection to Canada. Most people have no idea. So I was going to say Tubman Tours, Ontario, but then I thought, you know what, let's broaden it out, make it Canada. But then after that, I had people asking,

where did she go in Canada? And I just ignored it. Fair enough. Where do people think that she went? Most don't know. And those who do assume that she came to Canada, they think Nova Scotia. Why?

Because that's where history records that the majority of African Americans went during the American Revolution. So everybody knows about African Americans going to Nova Scotia. The book was most famous for that, the book of Negroes, written by Lawrence Hill.

I want to understand the people who come through this building. Are they mostly Canadian? Are they American? So the majority of people that come and take the tour here at Salem Chapel are Americans. But we've seen a decline for that only because of what's taking place in the United States. With the tariffs, people losing their employment positions, so there has been a decline. Does that scare you in terms of keeping a place like this with historical significance? open? Yes, it does scare me, only because we rely on American tourism dollars, as a lot of these

sites do. So if it's a heritage site or a cultural site, you want U.S. tourism dollars, because they're going to visit maybe once every five years, but they're going to visit in large numbers. And when I say large numbers, I mean maybe 10 groups from Missouri, maybe 10 from South Carolina. Whereas if it's Canadian, we may get a motor coach group coming from Toronto once every five years. So for Canadians, those coming from, say, the Owen Sound area, it's a one-tank trip for them. A lot will come here, but then they're on their way to Niagara Falls as well. With that being said, you are starting to see an influx of Canadians, particularly high school students. I want to know when students leave this place. So Harriet Tubman,

when they leave Salem Chapel, what's one thing you want them to take with them? When the students leave Salem Chapel, I want them to understand that black Canadians, so early black Canadians, beginning from our arrival, and in this area we're looking at 1780, helped contribute to the construction or the development of Canada, of this great nation. And we all know it. We're written out of the history books, so a lot of people don't even know about our existence, and not just black Canadians, other ethnic groups as well. But that's what we want to take away to be, how important we are. are to this country and our value of course.

Michelle, it's very clear that you're very passionate about this. Even talking about your family connection, tears in your eyes a little bit. Why do you do what you do? I do what I do to keep the history alive because if there's nobody here to do it and I'm not going to lie, okay? I'm going to put it right out on the table. If I'm not here to do it or no other black folks are here to do it, that know and understand our history from an old guard way, then who's taking? telling our story, it becomes a white narrative, or it becomes someone else's narrative. So that's the sad part.

Rochelle, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time. Thank you. Thanks for considering us. I'm Jay-N. Thanks for watching The Rundown. I want to know, did you do anything special for Ontario Day? Or did it feel like just another day? Let us know. Email us at rundown at tbio.org or drop us a comment on our YouTube page. Until then, I will see you tomorrow. If you're enjoying this series, please consider supporting TVO with a donation to make more insightful and thought-provoking podcast possible. TVO is a registered charity and you will receive a tax receipt for your gift. Visit TVO.org slash give TVO to make your donation today.