The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - What Should Canadians Know About Sudan?

Episode Date: October 9, 2026

Sudan is facing what the International Rescue Committee calls the world's largest humanitarian crisis. Political scientist Ian Spears examines the prospects for peace, while Unravelled looks at the International Criminal Court's investigation into possible war crimes. Then, Mamoun Hassan and Walaa Hassanien share what they witnessed after returning to Sudan on a humanitarian mission, and the story of the country beyond the conflict.Donate Today : https://tvo.me/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What a difference a year can make. When you support TVO, you're helping bring trusted stories, inspiring ideas, and lifelong learning to people across Ontario. And as a thank you, you can receive the 2027 TVO calendar. Filled with beautiful photography from the documentaries and programs your support helps make possible. It's a year-long reminder of the learning, beauty, and discovery your generosity supports. Donate $40 or more to claim yours today at TVO.com slash calendar 2027 and make every month a little more inspiring. Since 2023, Sudan has been locked in a brutal and deadly civil war with the Sudanese armed forces fighting the rapid support forces, a paramilitary group for control of the country. Now, the RSF has been accused of atrocities most notoriously in North Darfur.

According to Amnesty International, the group was responsible for a, quote, litany of war crimes and the city of El Fasher and surrounding areas in 2024 and 2025. Thousands were killed in Al-Fashire, and thousands more ended up displaced and facing starvation. But the Sudanese army is facing its own allegations, including, most recently, of chemical weapons use. We get an update on the unfolding crisis and how it's impacting Sudanese Canadians and look at what role Canada should be playing. I'm Jane Jagannolven. Welcome to the rundown. The scale of the suffering in Sudan can be hard to comprehend.

The International Rescue Committee calls it the largest humanitarian crisis in the world in terms of number of people who need humanitarian aid. So what are the chances of some kind of peaceful resolution? Ian Spears, it's great to have you on the rundown. How are you doing today? I'm very well. It's good to be here. Thank you. Now, Ian, you spent years researching on conflict and civil war across Africa, including Sudan, a country that's now in its third civil war, the latest raging since April 2023.

Why does this country keep falling back into conflict? That's a very good question. And I would say it is a problem that lots of African countries face. They are dealing with, they have a legacy of colonial borders, that is, those were borders that were drawn by the colonial powers and that the independent states have maintained ever since. And in some cases, they are gigantic territories. So Sudan is a gigantic country, and it has just enormous diversity, literally hundreds of ethnic groups and many, many languages as well.

So it's not that that necessarily predisposes a country to conflict, but it certainly makes developing a national consensus, finding a single political tradition very hard. Help us understand it. It feels like a bit of a hard question to ask, but what's preventing it from breaking the cycle of war and famine? Well, one thing is that the country is just infused with weapons. It's receiving weapons or the various belligerents are receiving weapons from different regional actors that have an interest in, say, the resources. I think that is true for the whole region. It's also true for Somalia.

That was a problem in the 1990s, and as well as actually in the 1980s. It's also true more recently in places like Ethiopia. These are all regional states and as well in Sudan. And so there's lots of armaments to go around. and there's also Sudan in particular has enormous wealth, gold and oil among them. Sudan has less access to oil now because when it was, so I don't want to get too bogged down in the weeds here, but Sudan used to be an even larger country before the South seceded and took much of its oil with it, but there's still lots of gold.

And in fact, one of the belligerents, the militia called the Rapid Support Forces, has been selling lots of oil and been able to purchase lots of weapons. So that is an enormous problem. Finding a single consensus on who's going to rule what political tradition is to dominate or that is going to be the one that people adhere to. It's very difficult to do in a very diverse country. Help us understand sort of what the two sides. You mentioned one, the rapid support forces. That's the paramilitary group. And then there's the Sudanese armed forces.

Can you briefly tell us what each side is fighting for? Well, I'd say they're fighting for the same thing. So the SAF, the Sudanese armed forces, they are the army. And they are run by or led by General Burhan. And I'm not sure that he wants to be president. but he is certainly fighting for dominance. Actually, the two belligerents in this war used to be allied. They both used to be in the government.

They defected from the government a few years ago and then did not get along. In fact, that's another, to answer your earlier question, to go back to your earlier question, that's another problem is that there are so many factions, and this is just the most recent example of two people that were, allied and then split apart. One was actually a militia group that was created to deal or to suppress violently, a rebellion in Darfur that began in the early 2000s, 2003 is sometimes the date.

And that and that and they have been ever since, or not ever since then, but Burhan and this other fellow Hamati, they are the ones that are the principal belligerents leading these two different armed factions, and they both are very well armed, one because it's the army and the other because it's been getting allegedly weapons from the United Arab Emirates. There have been several attempts to secure ceasefires and address the humanitarian crisis it has caused, yet neither side seems unwilling to end the fighting. Outside of power, help me understand here, what does this reveal about the priorities between the two groups? I mean, one of the issues is that the conflict has been very fluid.

As you may know, both groups have been in a position to win. Most recently, the armed forces, the SAF, look like they have a certain momentum. But we've been through this before, and the two factions seem to be about to win, and then the other side comes back. And I suspect that's in part because outside powers don't want to have their side lose the war. And so they're willing to provide them with additional weaponry.

If I can just say one of the issues, one of the maybe reasons or explanations why the SAF appears to be winning is that it seems to have been able to bring about or facilitate the defection of some senior leaders on the part of the RSF. That's the rapid support forces. And they are now coming to the side of the government. I don't know if that's going to continue. It really does seem like the SAF has got more and more territory. But as I say, it is a fluid situation and outside powers or may be able to reinvigorate the RSF again. So we'll see.

We'll talk a little bit about those outside powers, but I do want to talk about the Sudanese armed forces. and some allegations that were made in 2024. New documents obtained by the Washington Post in New York Times revealed more evidence of chemical weapons, particularly chlorine bombs, were allegedly used by the Sudanese armed forces. How significant are these allegations? Well, it's pretty clear that that has been the case.

I suspect actually that the use has not been extensive. One of the problems with chlorine is that it's actually it's pretty hard to detect. It tends to evaporate. It is not a controlled substance. So it is something that is accessible. It's, you know, chlorine is what's used for making water drinkable. So it's not, it doesn't surprise me that it has been used.

And it was probably used because the SAF was pretty desperate. My understanding is that they have, not been wanting to have this accusation lying around, or I realize there's been this dossier that's been revealed. But my view is that they're probably going to abandon it. There's also sort of suspicion about why this dossier was revealed now, I think as much as anything, especially if it's true that the SCF are not using them anymore, I think the dossier was really made public in order to embarrass the SAF. It may have been, you know, done so because the RSF, the rapid support forces are on their heels. I don't think it's going to be a major issue, or at least I hope

it's not, because it really would be a terrible experience in a war for sure. I want to bring Canada into the conversation. There was an investigation by by CBC's Visual Investigations Unit that found last year that RSF fighters had been using weapons made by Canadian arms manufacturers. Now, Canada has an arms embargo in Sudan since 2004. The company whose guns were allegedly found in Sudan told the CBC that they were in full compliance of that embargo. Yet there are allegations that those weapons may have made their way through Sudan via

United Arab Emirates. Help me understand, is there something. Canada could or should be doing through its international partners like the UAE that it isn't doing now? Well, what happens to weapons once they leave Canada can be a difficult thing to follow. Of course, it is up to Canada to make sure that those weapons are not used in ways that we wouldn't want to do it. We would not want to have used. And so wherever you're selling them, you just have to make sure that you have an agreement that that they're not that that that's the end point um but sometimes there is leakage um ice and and it can be difficult to control i mean if you if you really don't want to

have it happen then you just have to be very careful about where you're selling weapons in given where things stand today and given the history of what we have have seen in suan what would a realistic path to peace in sudan look like well unfortunately i'm one who's not optimistic about these things. I mean, I can, I think that there is a possibility at this point that the SAF, the Sudanese armed forces, could win. My colleague, Alex DeWall, has said that there's never been an outright victory or defeat for these belligerents. So, you know, I think there will, it will always be sort of a qualified victory, if I can put it that But it is possible that the SAF becomes so dominant and has able to bring about enough defactions that the RSF eventually capitulates.

So that would be good. But we've, as I said before, we've been here before. And there was a civilian government briefly, a transitional government in place. It's just that the military leaders weren't happy with what was going to be. be their situation in the next government. But more broadly, Sudan is just a gigantic, extraordinarily complex country. And at the end of this, even if one side does win, if the SAF does prevail, they are in many ways a coalition. And they're made up of a number of different groups, and they are going to want to be repaid for helping the SAF win. So even after a, you know,

a victory has been achieved if that's what happens. It is not a promising future for Sudan. And I think Sudan is always going to be faced with internal difficulties that sustain instability for years to come. Ian, this is a story that we will continue to follow. I really appreciate your time and your insights on this one. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. You're welcome.

The International Criminal Court has said it's investigating possible war crimes in the region. But what can they actually do? TVO today's unravel breaks down the history and purpose of the court and why it's become a political target. The International Criminal Court is facing a legitimacy crisis following a slew of controversies. Countries are withdrawing from the court, its chief prosecutor has been suspended, and it's facing an attack from the Trump administration. This administration will not sit by as the ICC and its allies seek to threaten our people.

If they believe they can deprive us of our sovereignty, we will teach them the full meaning of American resolve. So why does this court exist at all, and why is it facing questions about its legitimacy? The ICC was established in 2002 through a treaty called the Rome Statute. As of 2026, around 120 countries are members of the court, including Canada. The idea for the court emerged out of the atrocities of World War II and solidified after

Bosnian and Rwandan genocides in the 1990s. In the aftermath of those genocides, the UN had set up tribunals to prosecute people responsible for crimes committed in those regions and to bring justice to the victims. While the tribunals resulted in some convictions, critics said they were both slow and expensive. So countries decided a centralized court was immediate to hold people accused of the worst international crimes responsible instead of creating new tribunals on a case-by-case basis. And so the Rome Statute created the ICC and gave it the power to prosecute people accused of any one or a combination of four crimes.

genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes, and as of 2010, the crime of aggression. Here's where people often get things muddled. The ICC is an independent body that's not part of the United Nations, though it does regularly cooperate with it. It's also completely separate from the International Court of Justice, or the ICJ, which is a part of the UN and settles disputes between countries. So again, the ICC's job is to try individuals, whether they're political leaders, heads of state, soldiers, or even civilians. But it focuses its efforts on, quote, those most responsible for the crimes it prosecutes. But the ICC doesn't have guaranteed authority everywhere over every one. It's meant to be a court of last resort, where national courts

cannot or will not prosecute criminals themselves. And it only has jurisdiction. in certain conditions. Those conditions are if you are a citizen or resident of a member country, if you commit a crime in the territory of a member country, or if the UN Security Council refers a case to the ICC. Countries that are members of the court are obligated by the Rome Statute to cooperate with its investigations and prosecutions. This includes carrying out arrest warrants that the ICC issues.

Recently, former president of the Philippines Rodrigo Duterte was arrested in Manila, was arrested in Manila on an ICC warrant for crimes against humanity committed in the country, with a trial date of November 26. The ICC has no choice but to rely on member countries for things like arrests because it doesn't have an enforcement mechanism of its own. There's no police force. And while many countries are members of the court, several, including Russia, China, and the U.S. are not. Which brings us back to the controversies. Internally, the court was embroiled in an investigation that led to the removal of the with the chief prosecutor, Karim Khan, over allegations of sexual misconduct, which he denies.

Externally, there are long-standing criticisms against the court, namely that it disproportionately targets the global south, specifically Africa. As of 2006, a number of countries said that they would withdraw from the court, citing this disproportionality. Recently, the court signaled that was looking beyond the global south, with the warrants for the arrests of powerful political leaders such as Russia's Vladimir Putin and Israel's Benjamin Netanyahu. But neither of these men have been arrested. In fact, the warrant for Netanyahu's arrest prompted the Trump administration to issue

sanctions against the court and some of its staff. The Trump administration then launched a campaign to completely dismantle the ICC, claiming that it threatens American sovereignty. As we speak, the ICC and its friends are waging a war against our country, not with bullets or missiles, but with statutes, compacts, and the force of so-called international law. The American sanctions of the court have included putting several ICC judges on the specially designated nationals list, a list typically reserved for terrorists and narcotics traffickers. Among those judges is Canadian Kimberly Prost, who worked on an investigation into actions of

American troops in Afghanistan, a member country of the ICC. In the face of the American attack, Canada has reaffirmed its support of the court and its work. Canada is a proud member of the international criminal court. Our support for the ICC is unequivocal. Mamun Hassan and Wala Hassanin know firsthand. Some of the challenges facing Sudanese civilians. Born in Sudan, they came to Canada as refugees and recently traveled back to the country with a humanitarian mission and saw the suffering on the ground. I recently got a chance to share a meal with them.

at their Oshua home. Oshua, Ontario is home to a small but growing diaspora of Sudanese immigrants. Black pepper and salt. Like Mahmoun Hassan and Wala Hassan. Hello, how are you? Nice to meet you. I'm lucky to be invited today to share in a traditional meal. Nice to bech as well.

It smells delicious. And to get their views on events unfolding back in Sudan. Oh wow. First step of Molahni Amia is two onions and the main ingredients in it. Yogurt, ground beef, peanut butter, and the Sudanese spices. But this is the first step. You mentioned peanut butter. Do you commonly in Sudanese food?

A lot, a lot. They use it in salads, which is a surprise for a lot of people. Because we make it with more savory food than sweet. Okay. And our stews. So we could have a seat. I guess I'll sit over here, yeah. When you sit, like in the kitchen,

of all people cooking, you're kind of, it's an immediate, like, honor that you're now a part of the family, right? As we came really young, right? So we're more Canadian, but we learn these dishes because we love them so much. Although the Canadian suburbs feel like a world away, Sudan is never far from the minds of families like theirs. So this is the eggplant salad. It's a mix of eggplant with also a little bit of peanut butter, beef stew, just tomatoes or coriander. and this is Molahna Emiya, ground beef, okra, Gima, which is potatoes and ground beef, and this is beef shia. And the hot sauce.

Oh yeah, and the hot sauce made by ma'amu. Yes, hot sauce, also made with peanut butter and chili. Studentese food traditionally spicy or? No, the hot sauce is always on the side. Always on the side, yeah. So this is Kisra, is what we usually eat the stews with. And we use our hands, as they say, food tastes so much better when you eat with your hands.

agree with your hands. That's right. I agree. Actually, when we came, we got into a phase of like burgers and very Canadian ice food. It was like a phase of it. It was so excited. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We missed it at times and when it's made, it's like, it becomes like an event.

You were young, both of you, when you first came. How old were you guys? I was 11. In Atlanta was 14. What was the reason you guys left? We came as refugees, right? Both of us. At a time in Sudan, the parks were really, really dirty.

really dirty. So my father couldn't get work. He couldn't, he was unable, and he was politically quite active in Sudan. He was fired from his job. He got jailed in Sudan. So the last two years of our life in Sudan was really, really difficult until he was just able to kind of sneak out of the country and come to Canada. But I say that because like right now when we see refugees, like because right now we're working with refugees and so on. And they're actually fleeing real real war. Right. Right. So there's just a difference of the way that it looks. I feel funny when I say we came as refugees. Yeah. It doesn't see. seem as like...

In terms of what you're saying. What we're seeing. Because you guys were in Sudan not that long ago. Tell me a little bit about sort of the work that you guys are doing. I went on this mission with Mamun through Sapa and organization. In June, we went to see the IDP camps in a place called Al-Afag. And we got to visit about 10 tents to see what's happening there. Mamun and Walla have partnered with the Sudanese American Physicians Association on a series

of humanitarian trips. IDP camps, which are internally displaced people camps there, and people who were fleeing the war in al-Fashir. We're here in Wadmabe's kitchen in Umburman, where they serve a meal a day, and they come, mashallah, everything is serviced through them. They cook the food, the kids pour it, they wash the dishes, they do everything.

Mind you these are people who are actually also impacted by the ward. So it's not like there are people who have come away from far away, but they've come from the war itself and this is their way of actually given back. We've heard a lot of difficult stories, like some very, very tough things that they went through. Yeah, a lot of them lost their family members on the way to come to these IDP camps. There's a lot of sexual violence, a lot of very tough things. This is Ibrahim Malik, one of the biggest hospitals in Khartoum. on Hartoum, that was also destroyed in this war.

So you could see it completely ruined, yeah. So this is an actual hospital that I attended when I was a baby. So I do remember it when I was younger. Yeah, I was a child. Robo. There's nothing left. The clips offer an unflinching look at the crisis, capturing their visits to overcrowded displacement camps and the ruins of a bombed out hospital.

My baby was very... So we do have a lot of work to do. And it starts with just raising a way. awareness, learning what's happening, sharing it with others. There are two main sort of groups. I guess there's the Sunnis Armed Forces and then there's a paramilitary group as well. The RSF, yes. The RSF.

There is this sense of everybody is behind the Surinese Armed Forces. And I don't think that's the case. I think they just think that's the safest one of the two people. The Lesser of two. Yeah. So everybody will be like, no, we're with the Army. But we know the Army. But we know the army is complicit in doing some crazy things before this.

I, me and Wela's presence here in this country is literally a byproduct of how the army itself has ruled Sudan and how it has pressured people to leave the country, right? And when I say that in Sudan, it's a really dangerous thing to say, right? But at the same time, I also go back and I say the RSF itself is also a byproduct of the army itself. It was literally a paramilitary that was created by the army, by the government, and it was allowed to be established as what it is. There is no doubt that the atrocities right now,

the vast majority of 99% of it is done by the RSF, and they documented on their own by themselves, really, in that sense. If you say the wrong thing in Sudan, you get killed. Immediately, if it was misunderstood, if it was misinterpreted, you know what I mean? Like, you're like trying to be philosophical, like how we are right now, right? That's not a thing. There is a side that's being, like, funded from,

from the outside that's actually causing more damage right now at the moment. So that's why there is this division. But yeah, there is a side that's doing a lot more harm right now, which is the RSA. We're talking about other countries. We talk about a little bit about Canada and sort of perhaps its lack of getting involved here. Well, let's talk about Canada. Yeah. Canada's complicit.

Canada's fully complicit in this war in Sudan. Canada has been operating in Sudan, all your company that's in Sudan that's worked in Sudan for a long, long time. But these are still companies that are paying taxes in this country. Why do we not have any sort of condemnation? Through the work that you guys do, do you guys worry when you guys are down there? Yes, we do. I refused to take her that last time. Yeah, we were scared.

I didn't want to take her. Anything could happen. Our office in Khartong, for instance, they were just reporting seeing an actual drone that was flying by. So there's like the random like acts of violence that happen, right? If I fall sick and swear. Yeah, God forbid one of us gets sick. If you get sick, like you're more likely to actually die of malaria in Sudan. Say malaria, yeah, right?

And cholera and all these kinds of things. Because the systems is just not, not exist in terms of like helping people. You can just eat the wrong food. And forget just getting sick. There's no electricity. People go without electricity for the whole day almost. They get it for like one hour. Also access to water is really difficult.

Like for us it's through his work that we're able to get these things, but if we were left a little bit on our own I don't think we'll make it right now. I am obviously acknowledged that we are sitting here in your beautiful home and we're having a lovely meal and there are millions of people who are just, how frustrating is it that you know there are houses down the street who have no idea? I'm wondering what does hope look like for you? you when it comes to Sudan. It's so frustrating and it's so heartbreaking. And that's why we use like our social media platforms to talk about it.

We talk to people about it. For this family, news of the destruction from abroad is a constant exercise in grief, advocacy, and education. Driven by an urgent necessity to ensure the global community does not look away. I do feel good that I am raising awareness and people are talking more about Sweden and learning more about Sudan, so it does give me a lot of hope. And even schools are fundraising for Sudan at the moment, and my children and their friends are learning about it. So I am hopeful.

What stories do you think we should be covering more? Are there issues you think deserve more attention? Let us know in the comments or send us an email to rundown at tv.org. Until then, I will see you next week. You're not imagining it. Historically, women's health has been under-researched and underfunded. Did you know it took until the 90s for ADHD and girls to be studied? And it can take decades to be diagnosed with endometriosis.

How did we get here? This season on mistreated, we're exploring that and more. And speaking to those working on solutions, I'm Nam Kiwanuka. Watch mistreated Thursdays at 8.30 p.m. on TVO. Listen to the podcast or stream us anytime.