The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - What's Next for the Catholic Church Under Pope Leo XIV?

Episode Date: May 13, 2025

Robert Francis Prevost – now Pope Leo XIV – is the first American elected to lead 1.4 billion Catholics around the world. He spent much of his time in Peru as a missionary before Pope Francis in 2023 made him a Cardinal, and therefore eligible to become Pope. To help us learn more about the new Pontiff and the direction he may lead the Catholic Church, we welcome: Megan Armstrong, professor of history at McMaster University in Hamilton, and a specialist on Early Modern Catholicism; and Michael Higgins, Basilian Distinguished Fellow of Contemporary Catholic Thought at the University of St. Michael's College, and author of "The Jesuit Disruptor: A Personal Portrait of Pope Francis."See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Robert Francis Prevost, now Pope Leo XIV, is the first American elected to lead 1.4 billion Catholics around the world. He spent much of his time in Peru as a missionary before Pope Francis in 2023, made him a cardinal, and therefore eligible to become pope. To help us learn more about the new pontiff and the direction he may lead the Catholic Church in, we welcome Megan Armstrong, Professor of History at McMaster University in Hamilton and a specialist on early modern Catholicism. She's also the author of The Holy Land

and the Early Modern Reinvention of Catholicism. And Michael W. Higgins is here, Basilian Distinguished Fellow of Contemporary Catholic Thought at the University of St. Michael's College and the author of The Jesuit Disruptor, a Personal Portrait of Pope Francis. Good to see you both here in these very momentous times. Let's just do, Sheldon, you want to bring this graphic up?

And we'll do a little fact file here on who the new pope is, whose real name is Robert Francis Prevost. He was born in 1955 in Chicago. He's a White Sox fan, incidentally, not a Cubs fan. We know that. His father was of French and Italian descent. His mother had Spanish heritage. He entered the Order of St. Augustine in 1977, studied canon law in Rome, and was ordained

as a priest in 1982. He then became a missionary in Peru. Pope Francis appointed him Bishop of Chiclayo in northern Peru in 2015, among other leadership roles. Back in Rome in 2023, he became prefect of the Dicastery for bishops and that same year Pope Francis made him a cardinal. He has only been a cardinal for a couple of years and of course on May 8th 2025 the conclave elected him on the fourth ballot. And Michael we've got to start

there. Four ballots from a relative newcomer to this whole thing. How did he get picked so quickly? I suspect it's a product of the conversations that occurred in what is known as the general congregations. That's that period in the Interrechnum when the cardinals come together in Rome. They bury the old pope. All the rites and rituals have been properly done.

And then they begin to get to know each other really. And during that period of time they would listen to it. There would be little what they call intervention, interventions that are given. And then they would reflect on this and discern who is going to be the right candidate for us, right? As is often the case, those of us who cover the Vatican, whether as professional Vaticanisti or amateurs, almost invariably get it wrong. I mean, I have a superb, unqualified, track record.

Of always getting it wrong? Absolutely. So you didn't pick this guy? No, I wouldn't have because the stars didn't align in this favour particularly because of his relative obscurityurity number one. Number two the front-runners were serious Cardinal Greco of Malta was a major architect of the synodality project so key to Francis's ecclesiology and there were other players at Cardinal Zuppi who were really significant contenders

not Americans though clearly. Not Americans, though, clearly. Not Americans. And the Secretary of State, who invariably, the number two invariably figures within the configuration, I would never have thought that a relatively recently created cardinal, as popes create cardinals, would be seriously considered papabale or pope-worthy. Let me get Megan on that. As you watch the black smoke go up three times, how surprised were you that it was only on the fourth ballot that we saw the white smoke?

I was very surprised. You know, again, like what Michael says, every time they have these elections, which isn't very often, you expect it's going to happen within a week. But Pope Francis was elected after the fourth ballot, as well, as I recall. So this is very much in line with it. It made me wonder to what extent, once they made the final decision on Prevost,

to what extent it's about the urgency of the moment, that there was a need to come to a decision about the direction of the church. And he clearly rose to being a front runner, at least internally in the discussions, probably by the second or third ballot, I'm guessing. Absolutely. This may be an odd question, but are you happy with the selection?

Personally, I'm very happy. Now, I should admit, I'm not a Catholic. I'm actually an Anglican with a Catholic mother, though. So I feel like I can't speak for all Catholics. So the lineage is secure. Yes, exactly. But for me, I'm quite happy with the choice of someone who is very much concerned about the state of the world right now. And I think we have a pope who has signaled that he wants to continue a lot of the work of Francis in terms of concern about peace, those who are suffering.

And I think personally, I think we need that moral voice in the world right now. To that end, he's already had a call apparently with the head of Ukraine, Mr. Zelensky. Does that suggest to you that this is a guy who, you know, in some respects wants to take a page out of John Paul II's playbook, which is to say he wants to be involved in the politics of the world. Yeah that's a very good point because on the issue of the Ukraine-Russian conflict Francis came under very serious criticism for appearing to grant some measure of moral equivalency between the two of them. That wasn't in fact the case.

He was using the diplomatic playbook of Cardinal Casaroli who was the secretary of state in the 1970s, Paul VI, who argued in favor of Ostpolitik. So you worked in negotiations with hostile states. John Paul II changed that pattern completely and it would appear that Leo XIV is going to follow to some degree that John Paul approached the very fact that he would intervene directly rather than through the diplomatic channels that Francis preferred. Because Francis' primary driving political argument was built on a theological and spiritual one, which is the essential nature of dialogue. Dialogue provides the

condition for encounter. Encounter diminishes the toxicity that exists among adversaries so that you can actually move forward. So Francis whose position also on the Hamas Gaza Israeli thing was problematic. It would be interesting to see how Leo handles that fractious area. But it does reflect a difference in approach. But you know, for me, I'm happy with the choice, but I'm cautious. And I'll tell you why. I think that he's going to continue Francis' commitment to the social justice priorities that he established. Very importantly for me, he's going to continue the kind of church changes in governance that are critical for the Roman Catholic Church.

But here's the difference. Here's the difference. And this is what worries me a mite. When he appeared on the Apostolic Logia, he wore the mozzetta, the cardinal's mozzetta, and he wore the apostolic stole. And Italian journalists are now talking today about his moving back into the Apostolic Palace. You know, symbols and sign and style are substance. Francis sent a very strong message in humanizing the papacy by opting for a more simple, less monarchical style. So unless there's a deeper strategy, and there may be, it may be Leo XIV thinking, oh, this

is a sop to the traditionalists, or very unhappy with Francis, I'll work on this end, but this end I will accommodate. That may well be a strategy, but I'm a little concerned that the symbolism may in fact send a more ambivalent but ambiguous message, which may actually further division within the Catholic Church than some of it. Let's see what the new pope had to say as he met the world. Peace be with all of you, as his first words. Your thoughts on that?

I guess I have a slightly different take from Michael. He's more of an expert than me on the papacy and how it operates. So when I was listening to his message, what I heard was not only a discussion of peace, which was very much a message from Francis. Yes, wearing the vestments, that was definitely setting a different message in terms

of his use of church spectacle to communicate where he would be. But the language of that first speech, to me, was really striking. He talked about, let's walk together. And he kept repeating that. We will walk together. He talked directly to his parishioners who supported him. He talked to the cardinals.

So again, I think his approach in using sort of the vestments that were signaling higher administration, that did some apart from Francis. But it was still modeling inclusion. In other words, every segment of the church should be involved in what he presents as a struggle. He presents it not only as a global struggle in that message, but in subsequent conversations

that he's had. So I think in that sense I take it as an interesting sign. Well, this is his first statement, a special greeting to the Church of Rome. Together we must look for ways to be a missionary church, a church that builds bridges and encourages dialogue, a church ever open to welcoming, like this square with its open arms. All those who are in need of our charity, our presence, our readiness to

dialogue and our love. To all of you, brothers and sisters in Rome, in Italy, throughout the world, we want to be a synodal church, a church that moves forward, a church that always seeks peace, that always seeks charity, that always seeks to be close above all to those who are suffering. Now of course, everybody, Megan, is parsing those words for every comma, every what's in there, what's not in there, to see if we can understand more about this fellow. What do you see?

He's a missionary. I mean, I think this is what we saw with Francis and also with Leo, that they are products of missionary orders. And I think that's what's so intriguing. Why choose a missionary pope again? And these are missionaries who work on the front lines of engagement with ordinary people in the parishes all around the world. And so in some senses, I think they have a real world sense

of what people who are members of the Catholic Church really want and are thinking about. And so I think here we have another man who is convinced that he has been called into action and that the whole church has been called into an action in a moment of crisis. That's what I read. As you parse those words, what jumps out to you?

Well, in part, I don't want to sound cynical or anything, but it's ecclesiastical border plate. I mean, who's going to argue with any of these things? Obviously, you're going to be in favour of peace. Obviously, you're going to be in favour of inclusion. And these continue what Francis himself had also said, right? And I think that's important. I agree with Megan about their missionary background, but they're missionaries in different ways.

Francis was a Jesuit who actually had limited missionary experience. Whereas, Prévost is an Augustinian with extensive missionary experience. He spent 20 years in various capacities in Peru alone. So, in the practical sense, he's more the missionary than Francis is. But I think a key to understanding the personality, this is what is important to me, is what is the make- makeup of Leo XIV. And for that to be really understood, I think we have to look at a couple of things. The fact that he's an Augustinian, what does Augustinian spirituality mean?

And the more we discover how that shapes and forms him, the better we'll understand his own particular priorities. Because they're going to be slightly different, slightly nuanced, from that of Ignatius of Loyola and the Jesuits. So the Francis Pontificate was defined in specific areas. So far, Leo's not in any way departed from that. And in his opening address indicates in every way that he's going to follow through, specifically the mention of synodality or the synodal church, as a way of continuing this. But the language is deliberately generic.

It's not specific, right? We have to wait until we see the concrete action coming out of Rome on a number of specific issues before we can begin really to identify what are going to be the telling marks of the Leo XIV reign. Even before you get there, I suspect the first question people have is,

why did he pick the name Leo? Why did he pick the name Leo? It's an interesting choice, and there have been a lot of Leos in the church. He indicated that Leo XIII is one of the reasons we can actually find other Leos that would be models. But I think in terms of what path he's signaling in terms of leadership, Leo XIII is an interesting choice because-

When did he serve? He served, I think he was- 1878 to 1903. Yeah, so- Could you be more specific? I know. No. Thank God for Michael with the dates.

But you know, he was known as the social justice pope, the pope for workers, I think was one of his titles. And he's just, he was someone as the social justice pope, the pope for workers I think was one of his titles. And he was someone who was a great intellectual, he also was influenced by Augustine, the thought of Augustine and Thomism. So they have that in common, that intellectual heritage. They also have that interest in administrative reform, but at the same time for speaking for the marginalized, for the vulnerable.

I was so relieved that it wasn't Stephen. Okay, this is not personal. I know you would have enjoyed it. What have you got against that name? Great Pope Stephen, we've only had a few. We had six, arguably five but six and he lasted for a year when he was strangled. So it was an unhappy period but you know the papacy has a colorful history not always regulated and not always simple. Leo XIII is however a safe name. St. Leo the Great of course is

one of the most important popes of the early centuries but in choosing Leo it wasn't just the social justice emphasis it was that because he has started what we now call the Catholic social tradition, existed before then, but was consolidated by Leo with an encyclical called Rerum Novarum in 1891. That's very important. And every pope, major pope since, has published a social justice encyclical based on that original 1891, going far beyond it. But it is also, and he consolidated Thomas Aquinas as one of the great

foundational thinkers and figures in Catholic thought. But here's the important point. He made Newman a cardinal. Now Cardinal Newman is the most important shaper of the Catholic Church in at least two centuries. Which is why he has names on all those schools on every university campus. That's exactly right. Under his predecessor, Pio Nono, Pius IX, very reactionary dude, the cardinal existed under a shadow of suspicion from nearly from 1848, pretty well, 1845 actually, 1845 until 1878 when Leo named him a cardinal. Now in doing that he actually set his face against the reactionary nature of the papacy of his predecessor and established a new direction.

So it does seem to me that Leo XIV on several fronts may actually end up being a little more revolutionary than his early behaviour and actions suggest. I raised the point of sign and symbol being important and a connector with substance, but I also think it may be a subtle move on his part because I think that's one of the reasons why they chose this man, is the cardinal electors were looking for somebody who would exercise a mediating and ironic role, not with the world so much. That's already a challenge, but within the Catholic Church. And that's where I think they were looking.

Let's connect this to Canada. We, unlike in the United States, where they rarely, I think maybe twice, have had Catholic presidents, we have Catholic prime ministers all the time. Although not necessarily Anglophone Catholic prime ministers, but we have one now. Mark Carney, a devout Catholic, he welcomed the new pope by saying, At a time of profound global challenges, may his pontificate be marked by wisdom, discernment, a deep commitment to common good, and dignity of all.

Okay, boilerplate Ecclesiastes, I think, is the way you just put that a second ago. Do you really believe that this pope can have an impact on some of the most, you'll forgive the use of this expression, God-forsaken parts of our world right now, the Middle East, Eastern Europe, can he have an impact? Yes, I think so. And I think so because we have to consider how large the church is to begin with. I mean, we're talking about billions of people worldwide are Catholic in all continents. So first of all, there's a global reach to the institution and the head of the institution is a voice that ordinary Catholics also listen to. And even if you're feeling disaffected from the church in some ways,

this is someone that if you talk to anyone in a parish church is going to tell you they are paying attention to who the new pope is. They want to hear what they have to say because they're looking for direction. So I do feel they can play a voice. And I think especially in this moment, someone like Carney is a very interesting point

to raise in that context because he sees himself as a leader. He says that his faith helps him in terms of thinking about social good, social justice. And so that's why he's concerned about climate change. And he, in fact, was one of the advisors, the consultants to the Patagon under Pope Francis about the environment and economics. So in this sense, I think that moral voice can actually

reach quite far. I think Pope Francis' voice reached very far. The question is where are they going with that voice? So Carney listens to him. Zelensky, we know, has already had a phone call with him. Can you imagine President Trump listening to what the Pope has to say on issues of international peace? No, I don't. I don't think he listens to anyone really. And he obviously takes delight in the fact that an American is a pope, but this is branding more than any understanding of a pope's function. But with Francis, actually through the elaborate network of ambassadors,

or nuncios as they're called, actually did a number of things in terms of exercising genuine soft power with real political results. Francis's personal intervention through his own officers in helping to liaise between Havana and Washington and meeting with Obama and doing all kinds of things helped that rapprochement. Now it all fell apart under Trump but it was an important re-engagement with Cuba, and it was driven largely by Francis' agenda. There have been other cases too where he's exercised soft power.

In the case of Leo XIV, he's going to have to be especially careful about that, because of course he's still perceived in many quarters as an American, even though he's attempted to talk about himself as American in the broader sense of the Americas. He's still an American from Chicago. So there will always be suspicions about how he and his Secretary of State and others are going to work. That's why it's going to be very interesting to see from a political point of view, and this would interest you in particular Steve, is who he appoints as Secretary of State. Does he continue to use Cardinal Petaline, who would have

been his primary contender, we presume, or is he going to use Cardinal Petaline who would have been his primary contender we presume or is he going to go in a different direction in relation to China, in relation to the struggles in Asia and in the Middle East and what not. Is it going to be a different configuration? So keep an eye on his appointments to his own cabinet. He can, they make appointments for five years, the cardinals will submit their resignations, he can reappoint and whatnot. If he reappoints Parolin, he's indicating continuity

in a very real way, but he may also nuance this by changing what is the one who is the sostituto, one of the ones who works in relations with states, and say I want this banister. I think what we're going to see, certainly in the early years of the Leonine pontificate, what we're going to see is a real effort at achieving some kind of balance and equilibrium,

both externally, but also very much, because he's Bishop of Rome. And his primary concern is with the Roman Catholic Church. And it was very fractious. And he needs to bring some peace. We've got a little more than a minute here left. And I want to put two more things on the table, so brief answers from both of you if I can.

Can you imagine this pope entertaining a larger role for women in his church? Unfortunately, not. I'm not saying that he won't continue to expand their engagement. But if we're talking about the ordination of women, I don't foresee that coming. He's never claimed that that is a priority for him. He believes in clerical ordination for men. So no, I don't envision that. I think there are some issues where he's going to remain what we would consider in Canada perhaps too conservative for our values. But on the issues that we've talked about already in terms of the environment climate change in terms of issues of

social justice and protecting the vulnerable I think that's where he's going to really have a voice to watch. And just finally how do you see him navigating the troubled waters of the church's sex abuse scandal and the marquee intends to make on that? Well of course within hours of his having been elected Pope everything from the Jerusalem Post to the BBC were unearthing some of the early issues around allegations not about him not a test to him but the exercise of his power as a local provincial or leader within the community of Augustinians.

How he handled that. But pretty well in fairness. There were very few bishops, cardinals, metropolitan, rectors of seminaries or other ecclesiastical dignitaries that did handle any of these issues with aplomb, effectiveness, fairness and legal probity. A lot of the protocols, structures that are in place now would have been put in place after he was caught in some of these debaques. But they made bad judgement calls, that's part of the history of the Catholic Church, were dealing with the consequences of this.

And he will have to, every Pope has, Benedict was involved in a controversy with regard to a priest when he was Archbishop of Munich. And of course, Francis had to deal with his support of an abuser because he wouldn't believe it. In Chile, that cost resulted with the majority of the Chilean Episcopate having to offer the resignation. So in many ways Leo's history of this is more, is less controversial than that of his immediate predecessors. But I want to just say one thing before we end because I quite agree with Megan on this. I think where the progress has been made and I think we'll see more is he was the head of the Dacastrian bishops, making of bishops before he became pope.

He implemented enthusiastically a very important document that changed Roman governance called Peticate Gaudium, which introduced several women into the highest positions of Vatican governance and he was highly supportive of that. So my sense is that he will augment that. You will see more women in positions of power, not sacramental power, but political, institutional power, charismatic power, but then the not. So I think he's quite... there is a track record already there that would indicate that women are going to play an important role in his governance.

He did add, just to finish off, in his first speech he said, when we walk together, men and woman. So he was very, I thought that was very, very meaningful. And the walking, just as a final thing, because I work on the Franciscan, so I think that's Saint Francis. Oh yes, you would know. The competition. In the Tatio Christi, yes.

In the Tatio Christi. I feel like that's still coming through his message. This idea of the oneness. You were talking about the papal motto. To me that's the mystical one that can be read on many different levels. One is the corpus Christianorum, the body of the church. It is God and the church together. Or it can be, frankly, the global one. And I think he's leaving it open to us.

But the idea is inclusion. Yeah. And that's Augustine. That's the spirituality of St. Augustine. And Francis. The heart and rest is in there. There we go. And the Franciscans.

The rivalry continues. Michael W. Higgins, Megan Armstrong, your first time on this program. Yes. We've got you in under the wire, very good. So glad to see you, and thanks for your contribution to TVO tonight. It's been an honor to be here, thank you.

Pleasure.