The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - What's Unique About Canadian-German Relations?

Episode Date: June 25, 2024

Since the end of the Second World War, Canada has had increasingly close ties with Germany. In March of this year alone, Germany exported almost $1.5 billion worth of goods to Canada - mostly cars and pharmaceutical products. Sabine Sparwasser has been Germany's ambassador to Canada for the past seven years. Her ambassadorship is about to come to an end, so we welcome her to find out what's working and what could be working better between the two countries.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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share values with, or like visiting, almost always begin and end with America. But since the end of the Second World War, Canada has had increasingly close ties with Germany. In March of this year alone, Germany exported almost $1.5 billion worth of goods to Canada, mostly cars and pharmaceutical products. And Ontario cabinet ministers almost always have Germany on their itineraries when they're trying to drum up business in Europe. Sabine Spavasa has been Germany's ambassador to Canada for the past seven years. She was also the Federal Republic's Consul General in Toronto four years prior to that.

So she knows us well. Her ambassadorship is about to come to an end. So we thought we'd invite her onto the agenda to find out what's working in our relationship and what should be working better. Ambassador, willkommen in unserem Programm. And that's about all the German you're going to hear from me tonight. But thank you for joining us. Thank you. Vielen Dank, Steve. Great German. Dankeschön. Canadians, I think, have the good fortune not to be thought of much at all by other countries. But to the extent that Germans do think of Canada, what do they think of?

Well, Canada is probably one of the two most popular countries in Germany in the world. Whenever you ask Germans when they want to emigrate to Australia and Canada top the list Canadians have an extraordinarily positive image in Germany and I find it's it's a reciprocated kind of love that we have for each other. When you look at both countries, we see each other as the top countries to be trustworthy, to be great to live in. And I think it's a very easy job to be a last-line Canada actually for Germany.

Well, I'm going to ask more about the job in a second, but I want to follow up on your immigration comment. Years and years ago, Canada was a prime destination for German immigration. And of course, we've got Oktoberfest, we've got Waterloo, we have a city that used to be called Berlin. It's now called Kitchener here in Ontario. How about today? Is there as much immigration from Germany to Canada today? It's probably not one of the big times, the big waves came, for example, after World War II, when a lot of people were seeking

for a better future outside of Europe. What we see today is a lot of exchange. We see a lot also of our scientific community coming towards Canada. Germany and Calgary have a scientific relationship that is similar to none it is if you look at the size of of the country it is extraordinarily intense we have 800 university corporations and in that alone uh hundreds and thousands of people come from Germany every year. I mentioned off the top that you folks sell us about $1.5 billion a month in goods and so on.

But that is about as much as Canada and the United States do every day over one bridge in this province. So I want you, if you would, to characterize how you see the business our two countries do. Well, we're doing very good business and there's plenty of room to grow. Ever since Canada and the EU have signed CETA, the agreement between the European Union and Canada on trade, the trade has gone up. The last few years have been extremely active and we've seen wonderful growth rates. But yes, you're right, plenty of room to grow, plenty of room to grow in areas where we have

seen that we need safe suppliers, plenty of growth to grow in areas where Canada has a lot to offer to Europe and to Germany, like critical minerals, like green energy. So we're working on establishing much, much closer links and actually attracting more interest also from Canadian business to invest into going to Europe in general. It's often been said that with 330 million people right next door, Canadians are a bit lazy when it comes to exporting. We don't have to look too far afield because we've got such a huge market next door. Do you think that prevents us from doing more business with Germany?

Well, I think certainly it's totally natural to look at your neighbors first, particularly your big neighbors. Germany's major business is with Europe, obviously. That should not stop us from looking beyond, in particular, since we've seen in recent supply chain crisis during COVID that we actually need each other and we need to rely on each other in the energy transition we will need a lot of critical minerals we don't want to depend entirely on China on those so we need to look for other partners. And Canada is the prime partner in this. And I think it's a golden opportunity for raising the profile of the relationship that we have across the Atlantic. And we've been working on that. We've mentioned again off the top that you were once council general here.

You have been the ambassador here. You've spent a lot of time here. So you know us well. During your ambassadorship, what do you actually spend the biggest chunk of your time doing? Yeah, it's interesting. This is the G7 embassy, so we are broadly based. But ever since I became ambassador, and this is now seven years ago here, I've been also traveling the country, and I was traveling the north of this country. And I was suddenly very impressed by the chances, the opportunities we have to do more in the area of energy, critical minerals, to do more also in our work together on climate change and on science.

So we have redirected our resources as an embassy towards these subjects. And we actually, I think we're kind of in attracting more business, more projects on climate. And we're working very energetically on establishing bridges across the Atlantic on critical minerals and on green energy. across the Atlantic on critical minerals and on green energy. So we understand that it's an ambassador's job to try to drum up as much economic development as possible for both countries. But what about in other ways, politically, socially? How would you characterize the nature of the relationship between our two countries in that regard?

Yeah, we're deeply like-minded countries and if i say that the focus for us has been on um uh on trade and climate and uh energy these were areas where we really needed to call we are very closely aligned on foreign policy um and the g7 has become, the G7 connection between Canada and in particular Germany, has become absolutely crucial also in dealing with day-to-day management of world crisis like Ukraine. Our foreign ministers are constantly in touch. To my, actually, sometimes concern, are very directly linked with WhatsApp. And so I often don't even know what they've reached on until I ask afterwards. So it's a very close connection on foreign policy.

policy we are defending the world um the rules-based order the rules-based international order in all international institutions together um germany and and canada are deeply deeply like-minded countries and we always say we can finish each other's sentences um in those four okay maybe so but do you think canada has done enough to assist the Ukrainians with their fight against Russia? Canada has been a very stellar, an absolutely stellar supporter of Ukraine. And you see also the consistent support of the population here that is very, very strongly united on the Ukraine question. Canada has been helping not just with military equipment, with training, but with financial support, humanitarian support, in the same way as we do. We know that Ukraine will need our support for a long, long time to come.

We are very ready to do this. We're ready to continue to bring to Ukraine what we can in military aid in order to defend itself against what is a horrible, horrible attack against its freedom and its sovereignty. That embarrassing moment in our parliament several months ago, how much did that affect Canada's standing in the views of Europeans and Ukrainians in particular? I think it made more headlines here than it did certainly in Germany. I do believe that the important message is and was, and I think Ukrainians know that, how Canada sees Ukraine, how Canada wants to support Ukraine. And in that support, Canada is absolutely unbreakable and has been ever since

the 24th of February. Okay. Let me ask you about your relationship with the province of Ontario. And I note that I guess the last time I saw you was at a farewell reception that was held for you at Massey College at U of T. And I'm going to ask our director, Sheldon Osmond, to bring a couple of pictures up that I snapped on that occasion. That's you and Vic Fideli, who's Ontario's Minister of Economic Development and Job Creation. What did you two try to get done together, you on behalf of Germany and he on behalf of Ontario? You on behalf of Germany and he on behalf of Ontario. Well, I think Vic Frieden is an extraordinarily dynamic minister. He's attracted his government, but in particular, he himself has been to Germany many, many times,

has taken many trade delegations to Germany. delegations to Germany and I think German partners including Volkswagen have been very impressed with him, with Minister Schalpania as a very dynamic team in attracting a major, the biggest actually, Volkswagen investment in a battery, not in the world. They have been very fast in making and also making and all that is added to also with what was offered in the United States. And I do believe that for example, being in Canada, being in Ontario has become a value decision as well. Obviously, economic decision, but it also has been a value decision

and Volkswagen feels very much at home and very much welcomed, which is great. It's the greatest investment from Germany ever. is great. It's the greatest investment from Germany ever. Nattoxan is baking here in St. Thomas in Ontario. So we are looking forward to seeing this. I will be retired by then, but I look forward to seeing this because the plant will have the size of Monaco, I heard. And when it's being built, there will be no place on earth where there will be as much steel being built in order to produce such a factory. So it's a huge thing. It's only one of many, many great things that have happened in the last few years in Ontario. So many other projects I could talk about.

Ontario has been very welcoming. Canada has been very welcoming to German investment, in particular to German investment into the energy transition. Having said that, how could our relationship, meaning between the province of Ontario and either states in Germany or Germany as a whole, how could it be better? Well, there are plenty of areas where we can grow. One step that we now take with Volkswagen and big investment and other investments, but I could name, is going from trade to actually production. Another thing is going towards investment, investing,

working together more on the startup seat. Toronto is, after Silicon Valley, the most active startup capital in the world. We could do an awful lot more there, I think. We're doing many sales in education, Germany and Canada and Ontario, in particular the province of Baden-Württemberg, have very active exchanges then. But I could see that grow quite significantly.

And when it comes to Canada as a whole, I would say the road to grow in the context of the logical crisis that we're facing in the world is we should work together a lot more on defense and security. Now, I think you just taught me something there. I think I said German states, but you call them provinces as well? No, I said you're perfectly right. We call them Bundesstaaten, federal states. Gotcha. Okay. I want to spend our remaining moments talking a bit about Germany. And to that end, I had a fascinating conversation recently with a German national, a young woman who has lived in Canada for a long time. And she said, you know, on the one hand, I was very proud of Germany when it reached out many years ago to help all those Syrian refugees come to Germany. I think your country took in a million refugees who were in desperate trouble. And she was proud of that.

On the other hand, she was also worried about what that would do to German traditions, and she was fearful of that refugee influence affecting her understanding of Germany. What would you say to her and people who are similarly concerned about how your country may be changing as a result of its benevolence well i think she's right i was very proud of that moment and i was very proud um uh of angela mack made that decision that we can we can welcome people. It's a very complex subject. We took in a lot of people all at once and we took them in as they arrived. Immigration, I think, is much, much more acceptable the more you are in control of who comes, how many comes at what time. And actually, we have, Germany,

has changed our immigration law in order to attract more qualified immigration, but also to be able to select better who comes into the country. And we feel like at the Canadian case. So we've ended up, actually, we had delegation after delegation come to Ontario and come to Canada to look at the Canadian model of point system of acting qualified labor.

And we've changed our law, and it now looks quite a bit like the Canadian law. quite a bit like the Canadian law. The big, I think, the big belief we took out of your book is the combination between significant and very characteristic for this country. The fact that you do allow people to come in and bring their own background, bring their own history with them. They don't need to go into a melting pot. They are welcomed as they are, and then also become very much Canadians and represent Canadian values. We do not know about that. And I think that is also the precondition for a country that is accepting immigration. And we need immigration. Germany is an aging country.

Germany needs to welcome people into its midst, but we need to do it in a way that makes people feel better. Well, okay, let me in our last minute then ask you this follow-up, which is how much do you worry about the backlash that has happened in Germany, the rise of mega-style populism and that kind of thing? How much do you worry about that? I worry very much about that. You saw the recent EU election, the middle held, if you want, the major parties have a majority, but the AfD, which is our extreme right-wing xenophobic party, has actually gained 16% of the vote. And this after a whole string of scandals involving Russian money that went

to the party. So you would have hoped that would have debunked the party, but it didn't. We have in all of Europe, we have all over the world, this kind of populist party on the rise, we have not found yet a perfect way of dealing with it. I think we need to debunk, I think we need to educate, we need to show how these parties operate and we need critical journalism. We had one good example in Germany at the beginning of this year where critical journalism actually told the story of the plans of the extreme right-wing party, ISD, to throw people out of the country whenever they hoped they would get power.

Millions of Germans took to the street and say, no way, a party should not be allowed to think these things, to say these things, and certainly shouldn't be in power. Madam Ambassador, we thank you for your time on TVO tonight. We wish you well with whatever comes next in your life. Danke schön und auf Wiedersehen. Vielen Dankeschön und auf Wiedersehen. Vielen Dank, Steve. Auf Wiedersehen.