The Ancients - Achilles

Episode Date: June 25, 2023

This episode contains themes of a sexual natureAchilles is one of the greatest heroes in Greek mythology. The son of Peleus, a Greek King, and Thetis, a divine sea nymph, Achilles was a demigod with extraordinary strength and courage. The perfect combination to make a great warrior, he is perhaps best known from Homer's epic poem the Iliad, which details his adventures in the final year of the Trojan War.He's also gone down in history for his passionate love for his companion, Patroclus. Sources and mythology differ was to the nature of their relationship, and in this episode, we ask the question: was it really erotic? What do the sources say? Does our definition of love differ to that of the Ancient Greeks? And how did it inspire one of the greatest military generals in history: Alexander of Macedon?To help explore these themes, host Tristan Hughes is joined by returning guest Professor Alastair Blanshard from University of Queensland.Voiceover: Lucy DavidsonScript Writer: Andrew HulseEditor: Aidan LonerganAssistant Producer: Annie ColoeSenior Producer: Elena GuthrieDiscover the past on History Hit with ad-free original podcasts and documentaries released weekly presented by world renowned historians like Dan Snow, Suzannah Lipscomb, Lucy Worsely, Matt Lewis, Tristan Hughes and more. Get 50% off your first 3 months with code ANCIENTS. Download the app on your smart TV or in the app store or sign up here.You can take part in our listener survey here.For more Ancient's content, subscribe to our Ancient's newsletter here.

Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. Sing, muses. Sing to me a story of heroes and the deathless gods who govern earth, sea and sky. That is what Alexander of Macedon asks.

For years, ever since he heard the tales of Troy, he has dreamt of seeing it. A place suffused with history, with legend. And now that he is here, he can feel the muses close by. The lap of the tide, the whistle of the wind. These are their singing, their dancing, their playing of the lyre and the flute. But there is one story he wishes to hear above all others. That is why he has left his army in the plain below and climbed to this weather-beaten monument upon the coast. He has not gone alone. He climbs with a man his own age, Hephaestion,

his companion, his confidant, his lover. They work together to shed their armour. And the process is quick. They are accustomed to the angle of the straps upon each other's gilded greaves, the position of the ties upon each other's bronze blades. They disarm because they wish to stand before the monument not as soldiers, but as men. They come because they wish to hear the story of Achilles and Patroclus. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and in today's episode we're focusing on one of the most well-known heroes of the Trojan War, of Homer's Iliad, Achilles. Now there's so much to Achilles' story, from his heel to his clash with Hector and so on and so forth, but today we're going to be delving into a particular aspect of Achilles' story,

and that is his relationship with Patroclus. This is a part of Achilles' story that has been discussed again and again and again. Since ancient Greek times, we're going to be talking about figures such as Plato and his Symposium, but also later writers such as Athenaeus, and even a bit of Shakespeare too, and his play Troilus and Cressida. Now this episode we're following a special format similar to how we do our Greek Gods and Goddesses series. We're going to proceed the main interview with a retelling of the Achilles and Patroclus myth. Following that retelling we've got an interview with a man who's been at the center of the

ancients from its beginning and i mean that because he is none other than professor alistair blanchard from the university of queensland now alistair he was the guest for our very very first ancients episode ever released the plague of athens So you can always find Alistair right at the start. He is there and it was a pleasure to get him back on to talk all things Achilles and Patroclus. Now I must also mention, fair warning, that themes of a sexual nature do feature in today's episode. So if this episode is not for you, quite understand. But if you're now even more intrigued, then listen on. I really do hope you enjoy. Here's the story, and then here's Alistair. The Muses set their scene in the eye of a storm, a single Greek tent on the beaches of Troy.

Greek tent on the beaches of Troy. Beyond its canvas walls, the beating of drums and the blast of horns sound a muster. The Trojans have stormed the beach, putting so many ships to flame that the dawning sun shines as little more than a dirtied rind through the smoke. Now the Greeks are scrabbling, every soldier reaching for his armour, his weapons, in panic. But inside the tent, all is calm. The only sounds are the creak of leather and the clink of metal. The occupants are two men, two soldiers. Swift-footed Achilles, the finest warrior in the Greek army, and Patroclus, his companion, his confidant, his lover. Only one of them is arming, though. Achilles will not fight. Agamemnon, the Greek king, has insulted him grievously. He has deprived him of his war prizes, his glory. And now Achilles

says nothing will return him to this war. No argument, no entreaty, no number of Greek dead. Patroclus is not so implacable. From the mouth of their tent, he has seen the wounded return each day. He has heard their wails. And with the Trojans so close, he can stand by no longer. If you will not take up your arms and armour to inspire the Greeks, I will. And Achilles sees that same obstinacy that has kept him from the fight reflected in Patroclus' desire to enter it. Already, Achilles' refusal has festered like a splinter in the flesh of their bond,

red and raw and quick to irritation. Every day they have quarrelled. Only the depth of their love for one another has seen them nightly reconciled. To refuse Patroclus now would be to lose him forever. And so Achilles agrees. Achilles is unaccustomed to arming another. He is unaccustomed to the angle of the straps upon his gilded greaves,

the position of the ties upon his bronze blade. But he remains silent, so that the only sounds are the creak of leather and the clink of metal. He stands behind Patroclus, places his cuirass against the man's back and begins to tighten the fastenings. It is an imperfect fit. Patroclus is taller, his chest is broader and the hardened leather of the armour does not quite meet. The gap is just wide enough for Achilles to run a finger between, to feel the warm skin beneath. Patroclus leans into the touch, and the two share a look, a smile. and the two share a look, a smile. But it barely hides Achilles' concern.

The width of the finger. That is the width of a spearhead too. And its touch will not be so gentle. He tells Patroclus so. My armour will not protect you for long. Just enough for you to push the Trojans back from the beach. You must not carry on the assault to the high walls of Troy, promise me. Patroclus nods his agreement. But he laughs too. After all, who else but swift-footed Achilles could think of leading an assault on Troy now, when a mere defence of the Greek camp is already so desperate? It is his talent for war, his hunger for glory.

It blinds Achilles to the limits of other men. But Patroclus is blind too. And it is exactly because he does not have Achilles' talent for war that he does not know it like Achilles does. Patroclus understands war in terms of tactics and strategy, these virtues of wise Athena. He has never tasted those vices of blood-soaked Ares. He has never fought in the melee at its thickest, where the god dances from blade to blade, slipping into men's hearts and minds as that most fatal intoxicant. Bloodlust. It obliterates all other concerns. You think not of safety.

You care not for glory. You forget even that promise you made to your companion, your confidant, your lover. The final item is Achilles' ashen spear. It stands proud and unused upon the rack outside. When Achilles presses it into Patroclus' hands, there are no more words to be said.

They couldn't even be heard over the storm that rages about the tent. So all they share is a nod. Then Patroclus is swept up in the throng, pumping the spear above his head till the Greek war cry splits the sky. Achilles keeps his eye on its glinting bronze head and reminds himself one final time. To refuse Patroclus now would be to lose him forever. But another thought intrudes upon his mind. It comes piercing like the head of a spear through the gap in Aquirus.

Nothing will return Achilles to this war. No argument, no entreaty, no number of Greek dead, except one. Alistair, it's a pleasure to have you back on the podcast. Great to be back. Thank you for the invite. You're more than welcome. And for a topic like this, so Achilles, and I guess Achilles and Patroclus, but let's start with Achilles. Who was Achilles? Right. So Achilles, one of the really great heroes of the ancient world, probably the most famous of the heroes, the son of Peleus and the goddess Thetis. So he's a semi-divine figure. And indeed,

the story behind his birth is quite interesting, because his mother, Thetis, was always destined to produce a son that was much greater than the father. And this prophecy that attended Achilles' mother always worried the gods, because the concern was, well, look, if a god impregnates her, right, the child might be an offspring that would kind of overthrow the divine order, you know, as someone who could challenge Zeus himself. And so one of the things that they're very keen to do is marry Thetis off to a mortal so that she can produce an amazing child, but certainly one that won't affect the divine order. And so that's what happens. So Thetis is not particularly keen to be married, but the gods help Helios

catch her as a wife. And when I say catch her as a wife, I literally catch her. There's a description of Peleus grabbing Thetis. Thetis, of course, is a sea goddess. One of the things about sea goddesses is that they can change their shape. She starts to change her shape. She turns into a snake. She turns into a lion. She turns into all these, and he keeps grabbing onto her, refusing to let her go until eventually she's defeated. And so Thetis and Peleus are married, and they produce a bouncing baby boy in the form of Achilles. And in regards to Achilles, what's therefore the story about how he, almost all parts of his body, becomes immortal? Right, yes. So this is the story about Thet Cetus who really wants to protect her son, wants to ensure that, in fact, her son will never suffer any kind of damage. And so what she does is she takes the young infant and dips him in the river Styx. And this will make him absolutely invulnerable to any form of a weapon, blade, and so forth. But unfortunately, she makes the mistake of holding

him by his heel as she dips him into the water, because you have to hold him by something. This means that no water touches the heel, and so therefore, he's vulnerable in the heel. This means that eventually, this will be his downfall, literally his Achilles heel. Literally his Achilles heel. Well, let's therefore go ahead to the story, therefore, of Achilles in the Trojan War. So what is the background to Achilles, of all the Greek heroes, of Achilles going to Troy? So it's a very interesting story. So the thing about Achilles is Achilles is a person who knows that he's doomed to die, right? And so he knows that if he goes to Troy, this is essentially a death sentence. He knows it,

his family knows it. Indeed, they try and, in fact, stop him going to Troy. They, in fact, hide him on the island of Skyros when Agamemnon and Odysseus are rounding up all the greatest heroes to go off to Troy. They're assembling their best men. and they know that Achilles is a fantastic fighter, wonderful speedster, just an all-round hyper-virile person, the kind of person you'd want as part of your team. So they go and try and recruit him. Well, they can't find him. So what's happened is that they've hidden him amongst the daughters of the king of Scyros. So in fact, Achilles is cross-dressing at this point. He's wearing makeup. He's in his finery. Now, Odysseus knows or suspects that there's something not right about one of the

daughters of the king of Scyros. He tries to think, well, look, I'm sure that they've hidden Achilles amongst the daughters. But in the ancient world, women are secluded. You can't just barge into women's quarters and start looking under their dresses to see who's who. Odysseus has to invent a stratagem to decide how he's going to work out which is, in fact, Achilles. What he does is he lays out all these absolutely beautiful ornaments, these golden jewels, these necklaces, these diadems out in front of the daughters. But in amongst them, he also puts a sword. At a secret signal, he orders one of his men outside to blow a horn and to announce that the palace is under attack. Well, when the women hear that

the palace is under attack, they grab the jewels and run. But Achilles leaps forward, grabs the sword to defend them, and at that point, outs himself. And so, Odysseus knows who is Achilles. And it's a kind of wonderful story, I think, about gender binaries and about the way in which gender is, at least for the Greeks, a very essential kind of idea. So, the idea that even though Achilles might be dressed as a woman, maybe imitating a woman, at those key moments, his masculinity will reassert itself and he'll leap forward, grab the sword and charge into battle. So anyway, Achilles is outed, Odysseus gets his man, and off they go to Troy. And so who accompanies Achilles? Does Achilles have a band of followers

who go with him to Troy? He does. So these band of followers are called the Myrmidons, and they are essentially his crewmates, the people whose retinue. And of course, amongst them is the great boon companion, his great friend, lover, Patroclus, as well. And together, they go off to Troy. And so, yeah, let's focus on Patroclus now. So, exactly who was Patroclus and his relationship to Achilles? Right. So, Patroclus is the son of a nearby royal family. He's a slightly troubled child. So, as a young man, he gets into a fight over a knuckle bones incident.

He loses at knuckle bones, and he's so outraged at his loss of knuckle bones that he ends up killing the boy who beats him at knuckle bones. This is a bit of scandal. He needs to be moved out of the palace. Also, one of the things about murder in the ancient world is that along with it comes this idea of pollution. He's a polluted individual. He's got blood guilt on his hands. And so they need to negotiate getting him out of the place. And so Helios very kindly takes him in as a companion for Achilles. So they're really companions from the very earlier stages. Achilles is slightly younger, but they're great boon companions. And indeed, I mean, all sorts of stories. Homer doesn't tell us anything about the kind of childhood of Achilles and

Patroclus, but later writers do invent stories about them. One of the interesting stories I quite like is Homer describes Patroclus as the first horseman or the great horseman, and this interested grammarians. In fact, the later grammarian invents this whole backstory for it about how the god Poseidon fell in love with Patroclus. I mean, everyone seems to fall in love with Patroclus, right? And to woo him, introduces him to the horse because Poseidon is both the god of the sea, but he's also the god of horses, trains Patroclus as a great horseman. And that's why Homer refers to him as the first horseman. But we don't really know a lot about the childhood of Achilles and Patroclus, but people have tried to fill the gaps.

Well, you mentioned Homer there, so let's go on to the story in the Iliad. The story of Achilles and Patroclus in the Iliad, what is told? It's this great tragic story, right? I mean, at the very centre of the Iliad is the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus. So the opening lines of the Iliad are, you know, sing muses of the wrath of Achilles. And it's the anger of Achilles in all sorts of different ways that is really the great theme that flows through the Iliad. And he's angry for two reasons. One, because he's slighted by Agamemnon.

They get into a dispute over a woman. But again, his other great anger is when Patroclus, his great companion, is killed, and that rage drives him forward as he murders Hector. But yes, yeah. I mean, the story of the Iliad is a story of essentially Achilles basically sulking for books, right? So it opens with the gods punishing the Greeks for having abducted the daughter of a priest of Apollo. She's ended up in the retinue of Agamemnon. The gods punished the Greeks. They sent a plague onto the Greek forces. Agamemnon is forced to give up this woman. But he's king of the Greeks. He feels slighted by the fact that he's having to

give up a woman. So he says, look, I'm just going to take someone else's woman. At that point, Achilles, always extraordinarily proud, arcs up and says, look, hang on. You just can't take anyone's woman. He says, and Agamemnon responds, look, I'm not going to take anyone's woman. I'm going to take your woman, Achilles. I'm going to take Briseis from you. At this point, Achilles is furious, absolutely furious about the way in which he's being treated, being slighted by Agamemnon. Basically, he sulks for a good number of books in Iliad, and indeed does a number of things that really are very, very kind of almost reprehensible. I mean, not only does he sulk, which is one thing he

refused to fight on the Greek's forces, but he actually prays to the gods that they should, in fact, really harm the Greek forces. So it's one thing just to withdraw your fighting skills. It's another thing to actually pray for your so-called allies to suffer. But anyway, this happens, and the Trojan forces really give it to the Greeks. Things are not looking good. And indeed, the Trojan forces are so successful that they actually manage to beat the Greeks back to their very ships that are beached on the Trojan shore. And at this point, Patroclus can't bear it any longer. He stood

by Achilles while Achilles has been slighted and sulking in his tent, but he really decides, look, this is just not on. We need to take a stand. He says to Achilles, look, I know you can't go, but lend me your armour and I will go in your stead and I will fight the Trojan forces for you. And that's what he does, but of course, to absolutely tragic consequences. I'm Professor Susanna Lipscomb. And on my podcast, Not Just the Tudors from History Hit, I try to make sense of everything that baffled our early modern ancestors. Like, what do you do with your waist? If you put your dunghill up against your neighbor's wall,

you're going to cause rising damp. Would Henry VIII ever consider executing his wife, the Queen of England, Anne Boleyn? I'm not even sure if the Boleyns took it seriously, because why would they have any reason to suspect Henry VIII would really get rid of his queen? And why do men grow beards? During puberty, the male body heats up and a smoke rises in the body, pushes out the hair in the face. So the beard is actually a form of excrement. In other words, not just the Tudors, but most definitely also the Tudors. Twice a week, every week. In other words, not just the Tudors, but most definitely also the Tudors.

Twice a week, every week. Listen and follow on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. How does Achilles react when he's in his tent and the news comes back that Patroclus has been slain. And also, who slays Patroclus? So Patroclus goes out and he's extraordinarily successful. On the battlefield, he's this amazing figure of martial valour. One of the great Trojan heroes, Sarpedon, falls beneath Patroclus. Sarpedon, a son of Zeus, one of Zeus' most cherished sons, killed by Patroclus. Indeed, Zeus is looking at it, watching his son being killed. He wants to go down and save Sarpedon from the wrath of Patroclus. But Hera, his wife, says, look, so many other gods are losing their sons on this battlefield. You can't go down and just rescue

yours because otherwise everyone will go down and rescue their own sons. Zeus has to watch this beloved son of his, Sarpedon, killed by Patroclus. Patroclus strips him of his armour. Everything seems to be going so well for Patroclus. But Patroclus, rather than just defending the Greek ships, decides to pursue the retreating Trojans. Before he went, in one of those wonderful, tragic moments where you know that things are going to go wrong, Achilles says, whatever you do, don't pursue the Trojans. Of course, you know, first of all, that's what Patroclus is going to do, and B, that this is going to end badly. That's precisely what happens. Patroclus pursues the retreating Trojans and eventually encounters Hector. It's Hector and his off-siders who are

responsible for the death of Patroclus. That's why Achilles has to avenge Patroclus by killing Hector. But you asked about, well, what's it like when news reaches Achilles? This is this extraordinary, beautiful, powerful, wonderful, horrific moment in the Iliad when you hear the news and Achilles is just destroyed. He's absolutely destroyed. He scrapes at the earth. He covers his hair. Homer describes how his beautiful face is disfigured by this uncontrollable grief. Grief that is then picked up by his men, by picked up the women who all start lamenting. So the whole of Achilles' retinue and troops are all distraught, undone by the death of Patroclus. It's a grief of such magnitude that Achilles' anger finally towards

Agamemnon dissipates, and he realises that he's now going to go back into the field of battle. He's going to make it up with Agamemnon, and they have this rather awkward kind of encounter where they put aside their differences so that Achilles can pursue this vengeance against Hector. So this massive grief, this massive mourning, and you also hinted there so that ultimately Achilles would go on to slay Hector in vengeance of Achilles. And it's quite a brutal treatment of Hector's body too, isn't it? That whole completion of vengeance for the death of Patroclus. Absolutely. So after he killed Hector, what he does is he mutilates the body. He ties it around

his chariot and drags the body round and round the funeral pyre of Patroclus, and wanting to dismember the body, wanting to ensure that it's reduced to a sort of bloodied pulp. I mean, the gods take pity on them and preserve the body, which just gives Achilles greater fury that his actions are doing it. But this is the actions of a madman. This is completely barbaric to the Greek eyes. I mean, the gods themselves can barely bear to look at what Achilles is doing. So great is his rage at the death of Patroclus. And one gets a sense of that kind of magnitude of the grief and rage for the death of Patroclus by the extraordinary funeral rites that Achilles performs for Patroclus. So the ghost of Patroclus appears to Achilles and says,

you need to bury me because he's so busy dragging Hector's body around that he's entirely forgotten that Patroclus needs a proper burial. He does this extraordinary burial where in this period, what happens is that the body is burnt and then the bones are collected. They're then put in an urn and then buried in the ground. So they don't bury bodies. They first burn the body is burnt, and then the bones are collected. They're then put in an urn and then buried in the ground. So they don't bury bodies. They first burn the body, collect the bones, and then bury them. And so Achilles organises this 100-foot pyre of wood onto which the body of Patroclus is laid. But also, dozens of sheep and cows, warhorses are added. Interestingly, this is a bit that always gets me. A number of

Patroclus' dogs are slaughtered as well. So, the dogs that he fed at his table now get added to the pyre, along with 12 Trojan prisoners of war as well. I always worry about myself because I really feel for the dogs. I mean, I feel slightly for the prisoners of war, but somehow the dogs always feel to be kind of the real tragic centre of the funeral pyre of Patroclus. But anyway, it burns and the bodies are recovered. And now, interestingly, when the ghost of Patroclus had appeared to Achilles and discussed his sort of funeral arrangements, one of the things he'd suggested is that their bones, that both Achilles' and Patroclus' bones, be gathered together and buried in the same urn. Patroclus' bones be gathered together and buried in the same urn. This is a sign for Homer's audience of their extraordinary bonds of friendship, their brotherliness that will

get them buried in the same urn together. Very unusual request. You mentioned Achilles' bones there. Does Achilles not last much longer, shall we say, in the Trojan War? Yes. Well, he lasts for a bit longer. But yes, yes, eventually Paris will see him off with an arrow to that infamously vulnerable heel, and that will be the end of Achilles, sadly. And he will then be, again, interred with Patroclus together in the same tomb. And then, interestingly, and again, sort of horrifically, one of the daughters of Priam, a young girl by the name of Polyxena, will actually have her throat slit and will be, as it were,

offered as a bride to Achilles and will be also buried there as well. And so this tomb with the urn of both Patroclus' and Achilles' bones, was it believed or is it stated, was it believed that this tomb was in the vicinity of Troy? They don't take the remains back to Greece. They leave them at Troy. They are buried at Troy. Yes, absolutely. And in fact, later people would go and visit the tomb. So perhaps I guess the most famous example of people visiting the tomb is Alexander the Great and his lover Hephaestion, who go and make sacrifices to the tomb of Achilles and Patroclus. This is a very symbolic act. It's Alexander seeing himself as the new Achilles

and Hephaestion, his lover, as Patroclus. It's also just about as Alexander's about to start on his big Eastern campaign, which he's reimagining as refighting the Trojan War. So, the new Achilles is back with his lover Patroclus slash Hephaestion. They're off to refight the Trojan War, to reconquer Trojan lands. And of course, eventually they'll get as far as India. It is an interesting comparison, isn't it? Well, if we focus a bit more on Alexander then and that Achilles link because when her feistian dies in 324 there is that massive outpouring of grief of mourning by alexander and that creation of an almost dare i say over the top funeral pyre for her feistian too it's interesting similarities

you can see can't you between achilles's reaction to patroclus's death in the iliad and alexander's reaction to the death of Hephaestion. That's really interesting. Yeah, and symbolically, for example, Alexander cuts his hair, a lock of his hair, which is precisely what, in fact, Ach last time. As we wrap up Homer and the story of Achilles and Patroclus in Homer, in Homer's wording, are Achilles and Patroclus portrayed as lovers or great companions, or is there a great debate around the whole wording in Homer? So look, I think most people would say that Homer doesn't portray them as lovers, that they are extraordinarily passionate friends. Possibly what's happening here is, in fact, what we find is we lack the vocabulary to describe this extraordinary deep kind of male friendship that they have. One of the things that people have often pointed out is that there seem to be all these kind of deep,

passionate friendships in the ancient world, which sort of transcend our normal words that we use. I mean, part of the problem is with love, right? I mean, love itself is such a complicated word, right? When you say, you know, I love ice cream, I love my mother, I love my boyfriend or girlfriend, right? Those are very different kinds of love, right? I mean, hopefully, the way that you love ice cream is not the way that you love either your boyfriend or girlfriend. And hopefully, the way that you love your mother is also not the way that you love your boyfriend or girlfriend, right, unless you're Oedipus. Love is a very complicated topic in which there are various kinds of manifestations. And so, what precisely the love of Achilles and Patroclus is? I mean, it's deep, it's consuming,

whether it was erotic or not, I mean, it seems to be actually a kind of second-order question. Now, certainly in the ancient world, it was debated, actually. There was a certain what you might call dissatisfaction in our ancient sources about how unexplicit Homer is. So one writer later says, look, he didn't need to say anything. We all knew they were lovers, and really a sensitive reader can see that they're lovers. But you get this sense that they would have preferred it if he'd been a bit more explicit about the relationship. But certainly, it doesn't take long for the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus to be seen as deeply erotic. Absolutely. I mean, should we delve into a few examples of this, therefore, in antiquity? I mean, I've got in my notes Plato's Symposium. This feels like one of the key examples that we've

got of it surviving. Yes. I mean, I've got in my notes Plato's Symposium. This feels like one of the key examples that we've got of it surviving. Yes. I think just before that, the key text you want is Aeschylus' play The Myrmidons. Let's have a look at that. So this is a play. So it doesn't survive. It only survives in fragments. It's part of a trilogy of plays about the Trojan War. But one of the plays involves Achilles lamenting the death of Patroclus. And what has struck people is the way in which he laments him is deeply erotic in terms of the language that he involves. So one of the things that he says is he talks about the kisses that they'd exchanged, but also how beautiful the thighs were of Patroclus. Now, within Greek homoerotic discourse, the thighs are particularly signalled out as very beautiful kind of erotic objects. The reason why that is is because the acceptable way of homosexual lovemaking is what we call

intercruel lovemaking. This is to say, you're masturbating between the thighs of your lover. And so the thighs become kind of desirable, erotic objects. And this is always regarded as a much more kind of acceptable form of homosexual intercourse than, for example, anal sex, for example. So there's a distinction between the two. So Aeschylus is the person who has Achilles crying over his lover and lamenting the thighs that he will no longer have access to. And so clearly in Aeschylus' play, the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus is erotic. Now, what's also interesting about Aeschylus' play is the homoerotic roles that he seems to be assigning to each of the figures there. Because one of the very distinctive features about Greek

homosexual relationships is that they are what we call asymmetric. That is to say, there's always a much more active lover and a much more passive lover. Now, it's the active lover who derives pleasure by rubbing himself against the thighs of the more passive lover. Now, normally, it's the case that the active lover is an older man and the passive lover is a younger person. In this case, we know that, in fact, Achilles is the younger, and yet he's lamenting these thighs he's no longer going to have access to as if he's a older lover. There seems to be some sort of imbalance in this. Indeed, other later writers actually criticise Aeschylus for getting, as it were, the ages wrong or sort of misrepresenting

the relationship. But in any case, it's very clear that the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus in Aeschylus is erotic. This then gets picked up by Plato, who in fact actually discusses Aeschylus' plays. He talks about how, in fact, Aeschylus got this all wrong, and that, in fact, actually, it was Achilles who was the younger lover to the older Patroclus. Well, keeping on ancient Greece a little longer, then I'm going to ask one question about the Romans and then we'll get on to Shakespeare and then I think we might have to wrap up there. But in regards to their depictions on, well, let's say pottery, on ancient Greek pottery, particularly, say, from the classical periods, how are the likes of Achilles and Patroclus

usually portrayed? We have a number of depictions of Achilles and Patroclus usually portrayed? We have a number of depictions of Achilles and Patroclus. I guess one of the most touching ones is them binding each other's wounds. There's a really lovely depiction of that as a figure. I mean, Achilles is always a very popular figure in Greek vase painting because he really is the sort of paradigm of the fighter, the he-man figure. And so he's always in the front line of battle. So he's a very popular figure in Greek vase painting. We see a lot of him. Depictions of Achilles and Patroclus, less common. As I say, the dominant mode for the representation of Achilles is in battle. But we do see some quite touching scenes of them together. Okay, well, let's therefore go on from that. So we see a few examples of Achilles and Patroclus

together. And as you said, that one of them binding their wounds is very, very poignant indeed. But let's talk a bit about the Romans. And do Greek writers, even down into the Roman period, do they still look and study almost that relationship of Achilles and Patroclus? It never goes away. And I guess what's interesting is that it's a relationship that is very useful because it allows you to talk about a homoerotic relationship without any really negative sides. There's no sense of effeminacy, there's no sense that this leads to any kind of moral degeneracy, which is always in the background in a number of discussions, particularly in Rome. So homosexuality in Rome was always regarded with a slight degree of suspicion,

far more than it was in the Greek world. Now, it's very common. There are a number of homosexual relationships in Rome, but there was always a sense that it was slightly foreign. I mean, they talk about Greek love as a sort of import from Greece. There was a suggestion that it might be associated with kinds of notions of effeminacy, or at least it might lead to effeminacy. So there was always a kind of bit of suspicion around homosexual relationships in Rome. And as a result, Achilles and Patroclus becomes a sort of paradigm that you can evoke of an admirable, healthy homosexual relationship that is worth imitating. Before we completely wrap up, sadly we're running out of time, I did have a few more questions, but one other figure that I know you wanted to talk about if we go a bit further ahead to the early modern times, Shakespeare, Troilus and Cressida. How does Achilles and Patroclus fit into this?

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. So certainly by the time of the early modern period, the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus is regarded as a homoerotic one. And that's certainly how they appear in Shakespeare. In Troilus and Cressida, it's this extraordinary play which has more plot lines than you could possibly want in a play. It's got Troilus lusting after Cressida, Cressida treating him badly, but it's also got the Iliad as well effectively in it there. In one moment of the play, we have Achilles who's retreated to his tent, Alaba the Iliad, and he's being berated for spending all his time with Patroclus. There's a figure, Thucydides,

who gets stuck into him. He describes Patroclus as Achilles' male varlet. Patroclus says, male varlet? What do you mean male varlet? Thucydides is even more explicit. He says, Male violet? What do you mean male violet? It's even more explicit. He says, you know, his masculine whore. And so, this idea of Patroclus as this kind of whore figure for Achilles. And indeed, it's the same in, for example, something like Marlow's Edward II, where, again, a play about a homoerotic relationship between Edward II and his beloved Piers Gaveston. But, you know, in the course of the play, they compare the two to a whole series of figures from antiquity. The figures they list are Alexander and Hephaestion, Hercules and Hylus, and of course, Patroclus and Achilles. These are the constellation,

the pantheon of homoerotic relationships. At the very centre is Achilles and Patroclus. It's a relationship that we just keep coming back to time and time again. How interesting indeed. Alistair, I wish I could ask more questions, but of course, I feel like the legacy of Achilles and Patroclus and that depiction of their relationship, you know, in the last few hundred years is worthy of another podcast in its own right. Alistair, it just goes for me to say thank you so much, as always, for coming back on the podcast. Great pleasure. Always lovely to chat. Well, there you go. There was our special Achilles and Patroclus episode of The Ancients. I hope you enjoyed. Shout out to Lucy Davidson, the narrator of the story. The scriptwriter was Andrew Hulse.

And Nicolo, who has overseen the creation of this episode so well alongside our senior producer, Elena Guthrie. And of course, Aidan Lonergan for editing it today. I really do hope you enjoyed the episode. And thank you also, lest I forget, to Alistair as the main man in our interview. So engaging, so passionate about what he does. Always a pleasure having him back on the pod. Now, last things from me. You know what I'm going to say, but if you have been enjoying the ancients recently and you want to help us out,

well, you know what you can do. You can leave us a lovely rating on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts from. It really helps us as we continue to grow the podcast and to share these amazing stories from our distant past with you and with as many people as possible. But that's enough from me, and I will see you in the next episode.