The Ancients - Antony and Cleopatra

Episode Date: November 9, 2025

Rome. Egypt. Love. War. Over 2,000 years ago, the fates of two ancient worlds collided in one of history’s most legendary love stories: Antony and Cleopatra.In this episode of The Ancients, Tristan Hughes is joined by Dr Daisy Dunn to uncover the truth behind the myth - from their first meeting at Tarsus to the political intrigue that scandalised Rome. It was an affair that ignited a civil war, forged an empire that lasted for an age and gave rise to one of world history's most dramatic and tragic deaths, so join us to discover how passion, ambition, and betrayal reshaped the ancient Mediterranean world.Watch this episode on our NEW YouTube channel: @TheAncientsPodcastMOREThe CleopatrasThe Rise of Mark AntonyPresented by Tristan Hughes. Audio editor is Aidan Lonergan, the producer is Joseph Knight. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff.All music courtesy of Epidemic SoundsThe Ancients is a History Hit podcast.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener survey here: https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello. I hope you're doing well. I'm in a very good mood here. One, because I'm just off to the pub to see my friends this fine Sunday afternoon. And secondly, because we've just released. We've just published the Ancients YouTube channel. I'm really excited to see the channel finally up so you can watch these episodes as well as listen to them, if you so wish. A new exciting age in the story of the ancients. Now, today we have a classic for you. We're exploring the story of Anthony and Cleopatra. What's the fact? What's the fiction with the likes of Shakespeare and so on? It's a great episode, and I'm delighted to welcome back for it. My good friend, Dr. Daisy Dunn. Daisy, she's fantastic. Such a wonderful speaker, so much fun, and I hope you enjoy. Just over 2,000 years ago, the world witnessed the first.

fall of ancient Egypt and the rise of imperial Rome. Two civilisations closely intertwined in more ways than one. At the heart of this tale is one of history's most famous love stories, a Roman general and a Ptolemaic queen, Anthony and Cleopatra. It's a story immortalised thanks to Shakespeare and so many others down through the centuries. But what's the truth behind these legendary lovers? How did their paths cross? Why did Anthony's affair with Cleopatra become so despised in Rome? What were Cleopatra's motives behind the match? And how did it all end up so tragically?

With the Mediterranean-wide civil war that ended both the Roman Republic and Pheronic Egypt. This is the story of Antony and Cleopatra with our guest, Dr. Daisy Dunn. Daisy Dunn, it is great to have you back on the show. It has been too long. It has been too long. And we are talking about Anthony and Cleopatra. They must be one of the most famous lovers from ancient history and also a great symbol for two of these superpowers colliding, Rome and Egypt. They are. I mean, it's just, it's such a kind of iconic story, isn't it? If you say ancient world to anybody, they think Anthony and Cleopatra. And why do you think their story, the allure of it, has endured down to the present day? That's so much so that everyone will know the names Anthony and Cleopatra.

I mean, I think it's the intensity of it, don't you? I mean, I think it's just such a tragic story. You have these two kind of impossibly glamorous, impossibly sexy individuals who are kind of living and loving and then ultimately dying together. And it's not going to be a sort of spoiler alert to anyone to say that they come to a really sticky end. That's the end of the show right there. But I mean, it's a gift to, I mean, you can see why people in cinema love it, writers love it. You can kind of just, you see them falling and you kind of want to see in slow motion how they, got to such a point. How do these people who seem to be flying so high ultimately end up

where they did? And is it less idea, you know, this sexy couple, their loving life, almost in contrast as well to their main opponent, Octavian, later the Emperor Augustus, who's often seen as more of an upright character, I guess. I think there's a bit of that as well. I mean, he looks kind of grey by comparison, doesn't it? I mean, he's like he's a young guy, but then he becomes emperor and he's all about sort of morality, even though he's kind of breaking his own rules. He's actually of a lady's man himself. But Mark Anthony much more lives up to that reputation.

Absolutely. And that's kind of endured all the way to the present day, hasn't it? In representations on TV, in movies. I mean, ever since Shakespeare, over the last 500 years or so, there's always that depiction of Mark Anthony as the playboy and Octavian as the other and Cleopatra basically being a symbol of Mark Anthony as a playboy.

I think that's true. I think that's true. And I think it's fair. I mean, all the sources you read describe Mark Anthony as being with this woman, that woman, you know, he's with an actress one minute, and then he's getting married and then he's cheating. He does seem to be exactly what you call him a playboy. Let's set the scene first of all with the background. Let's introduce these protagonists in our story today.

When in time are we talking with the beginning of their story? This must be the mid-first century BC thereabouts. Exactly. It was working sort of 40s BC. Yeah. Let's introduce Mark Anthony first of all. What is his story? What's the situation with him?

as we get to the 40s BC. So Mark Anthony is one of the great figures of late Republican Rome. He has, he's sort of distantly related to Julius Caesar on his mother's side. And he's served under Caesar. He's kind of been with him in Gaul. He has been master of horse to Caesar, which is kind of quite a fancy title when Caesar was dictator and he was out of the city. Mark Anthony was essentially in control.

So he's almost like a deputy to Julius Caesar. he helps him to defeat Pompey the Great. So he's very much sort of up there, but it's really after the assassination of Caesar in 44 BC that Mark Antony comes into his own because he is sort of determined to to sort of avenge the death of Caesar. But so is the heir of Caesar, who is the great nephew, Octavian, who becomes the future Emperor Augustus. I think we'll call him Octavian to avoid confusion. It's Octavian today.

Exactly. And I mean, you can kind of see from the beginning, you've got. these two people who are very sort of wedded, they're very loyal to the idea of Caesar, there's going to be rivalry between them. And there is. But they do manage to pull together and to sort of form this alliance with a third character who's Marcus Emilius Lapidus. And we call this the second triumvirate. And it was ratified by the Senate. And it essentially allowed them to put on a United Front to defeat the key assassins of Julius Caesar. And Anthony really makes a name for himself at the Battle of Philippi in 42 BC. He's there. He is with Octavian. And I'd say really this is

the kind of high watermark of his career. He really performs excellently at Philippi. And as a result of that victory over Brutus and Cassius and sort of the key assassins, he emerges on top. And then as part this alliance, they're able to essentially carve up the empire into three parts to look after. Because it's very much, I mean, at the Basil of Philippi, or the Battles of Philippi, isn't it? Mark Antony is the general. He's the man, the charismatic leader. He's got the military experience. And Octavian, although he's his ally, although he's got troops, he looks a bit of a wet rag in particular. It very much is Mark Anthony's show. This is what he's good at. So winning a military victories this time, as you say, it really just rises his reputation even further.

It does. And I think he actually teases Octavian afterwards for kind of like sitting it out and being a bit of a kind of, you know, wet kind of weekend of a man. So uneasy, uneasy allies right there. So it's looking good for Mark Anthony at that time. I mean, which portion of the empire does he receive in that cutting up after Philippi? So essentially, I mean, Octavian takes Italy, which is a difficult, I mean, that sounds easy. It's not. That's almost the short straw in this because he's got to rehouse all the veterans after the Battle of Philippi. There are lots of kind of land conversations. People are being. dispossessed, it creates chaos in Rome. Lepter's gets sort of North Africa, and Mark Anthony's focus is very much on the eastern provinces. Which will then, of course, include Egypt. So can you introduce us Egypt at this time? What kind of kingdom is ruling Egypt? And who is this pretty remarkable ruler? Cleopatra. Oh, there we go. Well, there you go. So I love how we call her Cleopatra for a start. I find this kind of interesting, because she's Cleopatra

the seventh officially, which is not the only Cleopatra. She's not the first Cleopatra. She is essentially, she's part of this long line of Cholmeic rulers. So Egypt's been ruled by this, this kind of dynasty and it's been passed down. We've got to go back to your favourite era, Alexander the Great. Just temporarily. Fine, we can. I know. I know. I've got to indulge you. And so Ptolemy, General of Alexander the Great, trusted friend, he is the one who inherits the kind of Egyptian portion of the kingdom. after Alexander's death. And the sort of the Ptolemies are descended, essentially, sort of from him.

You get Ptolemy, Ptolemy, Tommy, and then you get some girls in there as well. Yeah, more Cleopatra's, Cleopatra, Cleopatra. They're not very diverse with their names, are they? They like a name and they stick to it. They do. And Cleopatra's father was Ptolemy the 12th. Yes. Aletis, the flute player, so indication of his musical interests there.

And really, he is sort of responsible for her coming to power initially. She's kind of co-ruling with him. He dies in 51 BC. And she is the eldest surviving child. So therefore she gets to rule. She is named as his heir, along with the eldest of her two younger brothers who becomes Ptolemy the 13th.

It's pretty difficult stomach today, but there was a lot of that brother, sister, ruling in marriages in Ptolemaic, Egypt, wasn't there? And Cleopatra the 7th was the next in line for that. Exactly. And it's really difficult to understand, I think, today. people say, oh, you know, isn't that weird? Isn't that strange? And I think we're not really looking at a kind of sexual relationship between the two of the matter at the beginning, at least. I mean, she is 18 and he's about 10. So we can't really go there. We can't go there. But, I mean, the really difficult thing is they don't get on. And almost immediately civil war breaks out between these two siblings wanting sort of sole rule or kind of at least kind of dominance over the rule of Egypt. And it really gets very, very messy. Long story short, Julia Caesar comes in and cleans it all up for them.

How much detail should I go into here? Let's explore it a bit. I mean, I also want to mention that, in my opinion, the Ptolemies must be one of the most, if not the most dysfunctional family from the whole of history. And that's saying something in itself, but I feel they just go an extra step, including the Giulio Claudians, I must admit. But yes, come on then, let's introduce Julius Caesar. How does he shake things up?

And this ends up well for Cleopatra. It does. So he arrives in Alexandria. And he, I mean, his first goal really is to try and reconcile the two siblings and to honor the agreement that these two will be co-rulers of Egypt, which is what the father had wanted. But it's incredibly difficult. I mean, Cleopatch has been driven out during this. They're really at loggerheads. And so you have something called the Alexandrian War developing. And I mean, the difficulty for Caesar is he's having to deal with a lot of men. on the side of Cleopatra's brother, because he's only 10 years old. He's very much under the thumb of his advisors, his tutors, one of them to see, eunuch, you know, got these kind of crazy long a list of people. They are very much kind of calling the shots on his side. When the war breaks out, Ptolemy actually ends up drowning during it. So he is out of the picture.

And the relationship between Caesar and Cleopatra develops in that period, and a child is conceived. Is they gone a romantic trip down the Nile as well, don't they? He has a little sojourn in Egypt with Cleopatra. It's all seems rather lovely. I love the descriptions of it as well. It's so sort of romantic of the two of them, just kind of gliding along, having a wonderful little voyage. This is my kingdom, you know, enjoy it.

And they have a son, and this is actually great news for Cleopatra because she's having to then rule with her other brother, who's Tollomey the 14th. And she doesn't really want to be with him either. And, you know, a little later on, there's pretty good evidence that she's. actually poisons him to get him out of the way so that she can make Caesarian, her child by Caesar, her co-ruler instead. There we go. Well, how do we then get to this time when Cleopatra does become the sole ruler?

Because we've still got to get through, where you've mentioned earlier, the assassination of Julius Caesar. We do. And really interestingly, she's actually in Rome at the time of the assassination, which I don't remember even sort of learning at school. You always picked her as being over in Egypt, don't you? And to actually make that voyage is quite something in itself with all the pageantry that there must have been, showing that she was a pharaoh of Egypt, arriving in Rome,

being so different to what a Roman woman was expected to be. And, you know, it is a big episode when she goes to Rome. It is. It is. It's very, very much so. All the pomp and ceremony is laid on for her. She is staying not right in the middle of Rome, which I think is interesting. She is now in the area of kind of tresterey in Rome, which is quite the cool side, you know, who means to Rome. So she's across the Tiber, but she's not right in the kind of thing.

thick of it. But she's there, you know, with her, with Cesarian. She's there meeting a lot of very important wealthy Romans. And in 46, Caesar actually officially recognises her as the ruler of Egypt and as a friend of the Roman people. And the Romans have done the same for her father, but it's really very much kind of cementing the fact that she is there in power. Do you think it's likely that Mark Antony would have met Cleopatra that far back when she was, well, the consort of Julius Caesar? I think almost certainly. I can't imagine him not meeting her when she was in Rome. It seems that most people were who were sort of, you know, in power in those kind of circles, were meeting her.

And I, to minutes, I wouldn't be surprised if they hadn't actually met a little bit earlier as well. Because there was a point in her father's rule, when he was actually deposed. He ended up sort of being shifted from his throne. And he had to come to Rome, and Rome actually helped him to regain his power. And I think in that process, I mean, there's a strong possibility, I think, that Anthony would have met her. She'd have been young at that stage. but quite possibly, I think, they've certainly known each other, I reckon, before they actually get together. Absolutely. Well, Julia Caesar is assassinated. So what happens to Cleopatra after that? I'm guessing she goes back to Egypt.

She does go back to Egypt. We know that from Cicero. He describes her as sort of staining back. And that's, that letter, I think, it's about a month later. So she doesn't stick around. And I think, I mean, her position is slightly uncertain at that point. You know, Caesar's dead. What does that actually mean for her? I mean, because she could potentially have been targeted in Rome, possibly, right? If there were the enemies of Julius Caesar. are hanging about? Exactly. I mean, I think she just actually doesn't know. I think that's my impression. She doesn't really know what this means for her.

She's determined to get back to safety, get there with cesarean, you know, get out of the way and probably lay low for a whole bird. How powerful does she then become in those years? Whilst Mark Anthony and Octavian, they're rising to the fore and they ultimately fight the likes of Cassius and Brutus at Philippi, what has Cleopatra been doing up in Egypt? She, I mean, she's tempted to deal with a quite difficult situation in Egypt for a start. There's a lot of kind of social problems. There's famine, there's trying to sort of organise the grain supply,

all this kind of stuff. So she's trying to be a sort of good ruler to her people. And I think from a Roman perspective, she's still seen to be incredibly useful, to them. I mean, so much so that, I mean, Cassius had actually asked her for supplies and ships for Philippi. They all ask her for help. They all see her as the money. That's the thing. She is the money and she knows that. So she knows she could actually potentially be useful. So I think that's what her position is, I think, at that point. The money bags. I'm guessing is how important

that is when they're fighting the wars against each other as well. And the manpower, I mean, does Egypt, I'm presuming that has a lot of sway over places like Judea and Syria as well, being such a big Hellenistic power. Yes, it's not the great reaches that it had been under earlier Ptolemies, but still that legacy of influence must be there as well. Absolutely. Yeah, we're not talking sort of about Alexandria in isolation. I think it's really easy to lose track of the fact that actually there's got quite a wide dominion here and there are sort of feelers going out in all directions. So Cassius tries, does he succeed? Does he fail? Do we have Cleopatra's troops on their side at Philippi? No, it's actually a really complicated sort of situation. I mean,

this is the thing. I think when, when Anthony and Cleopatra initially get together, Anthony's actually summoning her quite with a lot of reproach. He's actually upset. He's like, I've heard that you've been helping out Cassius, you know, whose side are you on? I mean, that's how their relationship begins, which isn't a very good beginning, is it, for a relationship? She says, oh, no, I can explain. And essentially, I think Cassius had been going on and on and on at Cleopatra for help. And she had been prevaricating. She kind of didn't really want to supply him with troops. There's some indication that. that she was sending some supplies to Dola Bella,

who was another kind of key Roman, who was at that point governor of Syria, which Cassius could potentially intercept. And she ended up trying to send ships instead to Mark Anthony and to Octavian, but they didn't actually get there. They were actually wrecked in a storm. So it's kind of like a non-story,

but it creates a little bit of tension between her and Anthony at the beginning. So it was kind of damaging that Hellenistic reputation of their great warships being like the most impregnable military. vessels of the time and then you lose them in the storm trying to go for this fight. It just shows you nothing is certain, is it?

No, absolutely not. Well, it's also really interesting, a bit of a side note. You've got big bad King Herod trying to carve out his, kind of take back his kingdom in Judea right next door as this is all happening. But Cleopatra does go up to one day Turkey to meet Mark Anthony. So what is this? There are two separate meetings. You're right.

The first one is Tarsus. Okay. So this is when they first got. This is in 41. B.C. And they, I mean, they have this kind of splendid meeting. I have to say, this is all full glamour of this situation. Anthony arrives, and as I said, it's been a little bit difficult between them. She kind of keeps them waiting. She comes in on the most luxurious barge you can imagine. And this barge has purple sails. It has silver oars. It's covered in gold. And it's

sort of reeking of incense. It's the most luxurious, splendid kind of barge you could possibly imagine. And Anthony sees her and he's like, oh my goodness. Like you can imagine this kind of gawping face because she has done herself up as if she is a goddess Isis, which is a goddess that she identified with. Some sources say Aphrodite. The attribute is quite similar. Whatever, she looks like a goddess and she's surrounded by these attendant women who are done up as nymphs. And we've said, you know, Anthony's a playboy. He's in heaven right now. I mean, the source, I think it's Plutarch, one of our great sources on their story, he's the great sort of biographer, Greek biographer, writing the first century. So not too far, far removed in time. He says

that Mark Antony was, you know, a man, I think it's about 42 at this stage. And he says he was almost like a youth. He was completely captivated by her beauty, by her intellect, and he just sort of reduced to being almost like a boy. It seems so easy for her to do at the same time. me, with all the luxuries that she throws at him. I mean, but quite the fact she'd done her homework, knowing that Anthony was coming there with the thought of telling her off, and then she just completely flips the script by just showing how powerful, beautiful, you know, she is a pharaoh of Egypt. And she keeps him waiting.

She keeps him waiting, which I love. I love the whole idea that she actually is then sort of taking control. And she's saying, this is what we're going to do. She then has him to dinner. And that's even more extravagant. Because, I mean, bear in mind, she's on her home turf. So she has access to all these lovely things. What's he supposed to bring?

It's like, you know, you're going to like a really nice house and you don't know what to bring. You can't bring some after eight. So you've got to bring something really nice. He's got nothing really to deliver. Bring a helmet, bring a sword. I don't know, a cloak. But I think she really feels this because what we read is that he enters this amazing room,

which is beautifully lit. And everything is sort of gold, all the cutlery, all the kind of goblets. Everything is gold and beautiful. And there are wall hangings, and there are beautiful chairs. And then she says, oh, at the end of the evening, you can take home whatever you like. Because she knows he can't compete. I mean, he's like, he's the traveller here. You know, he doesn't have the sort of wherewithal to be able to provide in this way.

How does he react to all of this? Is it very much hook, line and sinker from start to end? I mean, what does he do next? Well, I mean, I think it's really easy to kind of get wrapped up in the romance on all of this. Like, it is this kind of transactional at the same time as being this great sort of love story. I think at this point he is very aware that he needs to get something out of Cleopatra. You know, he is there, he needs to pay off his legions from Philippi for a start. He has ambitions in the East.

She has the money. He doesn't have the fleet. You know, she has the possibility of actually helping him. So there is something that, and she, at the same time, she needs some kind of support and I think and sort of assurance. And she's certainly worried about her situation in Egypt, particularly I think there's a problem with her sister. She's an sister called Arsinoi, who at one point she actually declares herself to be the ruler of Egypt. And she really, she wants her out of the way, and Anthony's going to help her to do that. So, I mean, there's something on each side for both of them.

And I think because of that, they end up kind of extending their time together. So you see them actually wintering together, all the way through sort of 41 into 40 in Alexandria, having this kind of lovely time. So Anthony does go from meeting Cleopatra at Tars to going back with her to Alexandria. And do we think this is when their relationship does become sexual? Yes, yeah. I have no doubt because, I mean, for a start, we know that she actually conceived two children. So you've got the evidence there.

So we don't need to speculate. She falls pregnant with twins. She calls them, I love their names. They're amazing. Alexander Helios and Cleopatra Saline. And Helios means the sun. Selina means the moon. So she has the sun and moon twins.

I mean, come on. That's amazing. Very celestial in the world above kind of thing like that. Do you think she really had this idea, she brought completely into the belief that, you know, she was divine or her position, you know, in the Ptolemaic dynasty as a pharaoh, meant that her and her offspring, you know, whether it was with Julius Caesar or Mark Antony, that they would be divine too? I think there's this idea that's definitely, it's intrinsic to rulers, though, in history, isn't it, that you've got some kind of divine support to the fact that you've actually been selected to be ruler. You feel like there's something special running through your blood. And I think Cleopatra is no exception for that. Meanwhile, back in Rome, poor old Octavian, trying to sort out the veterans and the like,

being upright, or maybe not as upright as, you know, we sometimes portray him as. What's the reaction in Rome as they're hearing all of these reports from the East about Antony, now wintering in Alexandria, having a whale of a time with Cleopatra and so on? Well, I imagine they're hearing quite a lot of the gossip. I mean, we have quite outlandish stories, which are in our sources, which I imagine in this sort of thing which is being spoken about in Rome. So these various luxurious dinner parties,

Cleopatra drinking a pearl, you know that lovely story. She drinks as well. It's fantastic. So in one of those of many very extravagant dinners together, she bets Mark Antony that she could consume the equivalent of 10 million Cesterces,

the Cerses being the Roman currency, in a single banquet. And then he says, oh, you can't. And she says, I can. And then she takes a huge pearl from her ear and she supposedly dissolves it in vinegar in a cup and drinks it. And people have been debating for centuries whether this is actually possible. But it just gives you an idea of the kind of life that they're living

and the kind of stories which might have been sort of circulating in Rome. You have the opposite extreme of that as well. You have the two of them dressing up in disguise as paupers and looking into the windows of the poor people in Alexandria to kind of see, I mean, can you imagine if our royal family did that? I mean, the PR is potentially absolutely catastrophic for them. Later with emperors like Nero and the like who do that kind of dressing up and concealing themselves to sort to kind of mingle with everyday people. Yeah, exactly. And if you get caught, I mean, the repercussions are quite bad.

So I think the Romans are definitely hearing gossip and hearing scandalous gossip. And they are not pleased about it because Mark Anthony's married. He has a Roman wife called Fulvia. Well, yeah, so Fulvia also feels important to introduce. to the story at the moment because, you know, she is still Mark Antony's wife at the end of the day and she's in Italy. She's in Italy, poor Volvia. To my mind, she's one of the most amazing women of this period. She has two little sons with Mark Anthony. So while Cleopatra's giving birth, she's there, so raising these two boys. And she is trying to keep his end up, essentially,

in Rome. She is coming to loggerheads with Octavian. And they seem to have had a very difficult relationship and there seems to stem back from the fact that she gave her daughter by a previous marriage, Claudia, to Octavian in marriage. And she and Octavian fall out and Octavian returns Claudia, the daughter to her. And he says, it's okay, she's still a virgin, I haven't touched her. But for Forfeobia, this is like the last straw. And she decides to actually whip up war against him. This is extraordinary. She actually goes to Mark Antony's brother, Lucius. And we have something called the Perusine War breaking out this time

as this sort of 41 to 40 BC so exactly that period where Anthony Cleopatra are together it ends up being this kind of extraordinary showdown in the city of Perugia and it turns into a siege we actually have these

kind of slingshot bullets which I love, have you've seen them I have, I love these things shot bullets because they also have some quite crude messages on as well, don't they? They're foul, like translating them makes you blush I mean like you have some of these We're going to do Tiberius later

I know, so if that makes you blush I'm going to warm up. So some of them are saying things like, I'm aiming for Octavian's asshole. And then I prefer the ones for Fulvia. They're saying things like, I'm aiming for Fulvia's clitoris, which is quite, you know, quite anatomical for that time.

I mean, I can't think of another word. So these have been found. But, I mean, the really sad thing is, Fulvia is instrumental and that she's seen to be the sort of key player. She is getting troops. She's supposedly holding onto a sword, addressing the men.

But it all goes disastrously wrong. and the side of Octavian ends up getting the upper hand, they starve the citizens of Perugia into submission. And Folvia and Lucius are spared, but about 300 senators who'd been sort of on their side are supposedly sacrificed on the altar of Julius Caesar. Yeah, well, I didn't realize how many senators went, you know, to support them because initially, if you just say the Perusine war in Perusia,

it feels like one city against the entirety of Roman Italy. But it actually seems like it wasn't actually as clean, as that, as simple as that, that Octavian always had the upper hand, but he does ultimately win out. He does win out, and then this is disastrous, really, because, I mean, the historians of the time I'm talking about sort of Plutarch and then also sort of Cassius Dio and other sort of, so he's writing a bit later, second to third century. They are really, really hard on phobia.

They say that her whole kind of ideal of creating this war, her kind of objective, was to get Anthony home. She had heard the rumors about the affair with Cleopatra. And they think, they say, well, the only way she could possibly try and grab him was to cause chaos, basically, in Italy and get him home. I don't think that's fair. Is that a classic trope, isn't it? It makes it too black and white saying one woman was jealous of the other, so they tries to get the husband back by doing something like that. Exactly.

I really think she was feeling the fact that Octavian was getting the upper hand, and she was trying to sort of do something for her husband to kind of help his hand while he's away all this time. but it's just not recognised in that way. And she said her families pinned her colours, you know, to that faction. And when Mark Anthony hears all about this and how it ultimately goes Octavian's way, does that actually force him to act, though? Well, he's furious. I mean, he's not happy about it. He's furious with his wife and his brother or with Octavian?

Well, kind of both, but he's mainly Folvia because, I mean, Fulvia really wants to meet him after this. And he agrees to do so. So they meet up in Greece. she sails all the way there with the two boys and there's this very sort of brief perfunctory reunion and then he just leaves her and he goes off because he's been summoned to a conference with Octavian back in Italy in Brindisiams, so right in the south of Italy. And it's really difficult because Fulviland dies. She's fallen unwell when she's in Greece. He's gone back to Italy just to try and

patch things up with Octavian. And I mean that does work. I mean there's the sort of renewal of this triumph at this alliance for power. Their kind of special areas are slightly altered insofar as Octavian now has a big problem confronting him in Sicily. Sextus Pompeius. Sextus Pompey, isn't it? Yes, he's a son of Pompey the Great, and he's at large. He seems to be causing a lot of chaos with the grain supply, which is coming via the waters of Sicily into Italy. And there's no fleet at that point to really deal with him. So you have Marcus Agrippa, who I laugh, by the way. I mean, he is. Forget Mark Anthony. Mark Grypha is the guy. He's the man. He's the one who arranges the sort of any harbour. He builds up a fleet. He trains sort of about 20,000 former slaves

to form a kind of navy and to see off the threat of sex as Pompey. So all of that is going on and this is going to be sort of Octavian's focus going forward. The relationship, as I said, is renewed. So the situation from Mark Anthony, he's having to look much more into kind of parthia, sort of Iranian kingdom we're talking about. So it's renewed. And then the whole deal is sealed. They often have a marriage to seal the deal when these alliances are made. This is a very, very sort of Roman thing. And Mark Antony agrees to marry the sister of Octavian. She's Octavia. And he, I mean, he should have been really happy about this because she is so popular. She's one the most popular women in Rome. All the sources are, they just describe her as extraordinary.

She's beautiful. She's kind. She's everything you'd possibly want. And because she's so popular, that ought to sort of rub off well on Mark Antony because his popularity has taken a downturn since his relationship with Cleopatra and all the gossip about that. So by marrying Octavia, he should be kind of on the rise at this point. And they seem to have like a very happy beginning to their wedding by all accounts. Cleopatra's kind of out of the picture. suddenly, which is astonishing. We've got her so sort of prominent in our sources. And then suddenly Mark Anthony's there. He's beginning a new family life. He's married to Octavia. They have two daughters by 37 BC. So they're very much, you know, seem to be having a happy life and

they're based largely in Athens, actually. But I think that once again shows, as you mentioned earlier, how the story of Anthony and Cleopatra, it's not a love story or not just a love story. You know, it's a political kind of unity. And earlier on in the 30s near, you know, 40, 41, You know, Mark Anthony saw benefits of, you know, being with Cleopatra at the time. But now he's had this offer of Octavia and this, you know, peace with Octavian, renewed peace. And he sees that actually that is the better opportunity for him at the time. So it seems like, as you were saying, maybe at least early on, he does realize that actually Octavia is a better bet for him than Cleopatra at this time. I think almost certainly that he knows what he's got to do.

He's had this sort of situation in Rome and in Perugia and he's just thinking, like, this is my business now. in the interested in the alliance. I'm going to do this, go through the wedding. And you know, you're just at this point, I think I'm praying for Octavia thinking I just hope that this works out well for her, you know. Completely. And also you did mention there in passing, it feels a good time to introduce him to the story because he will come back later, won't he? The figure, the one and only a gripper and is building a fleet, which also feels important because he's not a navy man at that time, but he has to learn the ropes from the beginning. He does. And he's one those extraordinary figures where he seems to have come from quite a modest, humble beginning. We don't

know very much about his childhood. And he ends up being educated alongside the future Octavians. They meet when they're very young just before Octavian becomes the heir of Caesar. And so he becomes a very trusted sort of deputy to him very, very early on. And he has this a great military beginning. But he doesn't have naval experience at all. And he's, you know, called in to deal with Sextus Pompeius. He has to learn it all himself. And he does. He just seems to he's one those characters, whatever situation he's thrown into, he seems to just excel in. I mean, he's extraordinary. This is the sewers of Rome, all of the straits of Messina, isn't it? He's an amazing story.

And he's important for when we go on later and such an vital asset for Octavian. Well, let's keep moving the story forwards. It all looks quite nice for Mark Anthony. You know, peace with Octavian once again. Marriage to Octavia. When does he start looking back east? When does Cleopatra come back into? the fold. He seems to get the itch after just a few years. And I forget the seven-year itch, seven years. God, that would be something for Mark Anthony. He is getting itch. He can't control himself. He can't control himself. But again, it's not just for clearly, he'd like to think, okay, he's just really missing Cleopatra. He has an ulterior motive. He always has an ulterior

motive. 37 BC, he starts to think, I really want to invade Parthia. And I think at this point, he's really aware of the fact that he hasn't really had any great military victory since Philippi. A long time has passed. He's got nothing really to his name. He lacks the legitimacy of Octavian. Octavian is the chosen successor of Julius Caesar. What does Mark Anthony have? He doesn't seem to have anything. He kind of thinks in Rome, the only real way you can win glory is by conquering a foreign enemy. So he did well at Philippi. Great. But that's a civil war. You know, that's not the same. It's Roman on Roman, isn't it? It's not the same as conquering a foreign people.

You can't really do a triumph if you're fighting Romans, can you as well? Because ultimately you'll be celebrating killing fellow citizens. That's exactly. You can't get the triumph. The triumph is the great celebration that all military leaders aspire to. He wants one of those. And the biggest one you can possibly get at this time is over Parthia, because, I mean, Rome has beef with Parthia.

Not that far long ago in time, so sort of 53 BC. There's a real difficulty. There's a humiliating loss of the Romans to the Parthia. So this is Krasis. This is Karai. This is the loss of the Roman standards, the Eagles, legions and just pride. So Romans feel that they need to avenge that. And Mark Anthony thinks that he's the guy to do that. So he has that ulterior motive of going to Parthia. So Cleopatra must be, given her power at the time in Egypt, you know, the clear ally to get close to for this motive. Yes, absolutely. And he sees that she's the one who can fund this. She can potentially get, you know, fleets to him and help him out with us. And he actually goes back, he meets her in Antioch, he grants her territories,

which is quite extraordinary, he gives her, oh, it's a list of them like Phoenicia, Cyprus. And these are places essentially which had been within the domain of the Ptolemy's back in history. So he kind of feels like he's giving them back to her. And in return, he wants her help. And he manages to get it so that he can actually launch his invasion in early 36. But that's so interesting. I feel maybe not the secret motive, but that is a clear motive of a clear pattern. isn't it? She is living at a time when she's hearing all the stories of how powerful the

Ptolemaic dynasty once was, the great Hellenistic superpower, you know, beating the Seleucids and so on. And she wants to kind of revive that golden age of Ptolemaic power. And she sees Mark Anthony as the person through which she can do it. And she achieves it with those territories that he gives her. Exactly. Exactly. So she's getting something out of it. She's not just there, you know, helping out her darling lover. I mean, she's, she's very much wanting her side and she's getting it. So how does the war go? The war is a disaster. But you can almost see it written on the wall, can't you? I think you can almost anticipate that this is going to be a disaster frantic, because he wants it so much. You know, he, it's terrible. I mean, she supplies him with

ships and with money, and he sets out, and he has this kind of quite complicated plan. He decides he's going to invade via Armenia. And Rome is allied with Armenia at this point. And they decide they're going to go via the sort of from the south of the Euphrates Cleopatra kind of accompanies him part of the way and this is a really long journey for an army. This is such a long journey. Anthony is right at the front

he goes and lays siege to a particular town which is media and you can ask me where that is I just look at your face. Media is northern Iran is northern Iran so it's kind of Iranian Azerbaijan. Yes. Right. So he is laying siege there

that he thinks it's going to be easy. It's not. He just doesn't seem to be able to break through. And meanwhile, he's got coming up the rear, he's got his baggage train. And this is a vast baggage train. It's got all his siege engines. It's slower to move. It's got all the pack animals. You know, it's slow. And he makes the sort of fatal mistake of putting two of his less experienced legions in charge of this baggage train. And the Parthians think, ah, I know what we're going to do. They attack his baggage train. They kill those legions. and there's absolutely no sort of supplies then for Anthony and he's there beseeding, besieging, besieging, but not getting anywhere.

He blames the Armenian cavalry for letting him down and not actually getting him out of this difficult situation. Probably slightly unfair, this is kind of bad planning on his part. And ultimately he just has to recede, he has to withdraw. And as he's withdrawing, his men are absolutely exhausted. They are hungry. There are no supplies for him. And he ends up having to go back to Cleopatra with his tail between his legs.

they reconvene near modern Beirut. And he's, I mean, he's thought this is going to be the making of him, but actually the Parthian expedition was the breaking of him. Breaking, wow, great line, great line. So does Cleopatra welcome him back? Because I feel we're now getting to a time where it's almost, even though he suffered this loss, still quite a high point in their relationship

with this thing called the donations of Alexandria? Yes. So this is a kind of, again, you could see this as a disaster PR-wise or as a very good vision. of what Anthony was envisaging for the future, possibly both, I think likely both. So they come together again. The generations for Alexandria is this really bizarre event. He is on a high because he manages in the meantime to score a victory of the Armenians,

who he thinks would let him down. He blames, okay, right, yeah. So he dresses up as Dionysus, as you do. He has a celebration for that. And then you have the donations in the gymnasium, so it's great stuff open space. appears, I'd say probably almost certainly, in the disguise of Dionysus again. Cleopatra's definitely an ISIS gear. They love dressing up these two.

They really like, they're dressing up. They sit down on two gold thrones, and they have their children with them, and they've got three children by now, because they've sort of recommenced their relationships. They've got the twins, and they've got another son, who is Ptolemy Philadelphus. Okay. Oh, so we're Ptolemy. Okay, there you go to have another one. and then Caesarian as well.

Cisarian, I think, is about 13 years old at this point. And they're on kind of mini-thrones, which I think is quite cute. And Mark Anthony declares that Cleopatra is queen of kings. Caesarian is king of kings. They are official rulers of Egypt. He says that one of the twin son, the twin son, rather, he has control over Parthia. He says that the girl has Sirenica. he gives all these kind of territories to them

and this is kind of a symbolic thing because I mean they're not really his to give if you know what you mean like they're declared to be rulers and have ownership of these places and he doesn't and this is just totally mad I mean it's ply in the sky I mean it really is I mean Octavian is not going to stand for it for one minute

overstepping the mark and you know so and Syriarchus that's kind of Libya today the Benghazi area exactly kind of spur in the land so they're kind of showing off their power and seemingly giving territories calling themselves kings and queens, which must be, yeah, exactly also a Roman calling himself a king or being associated with royalty. Should have learned something from Julius Caesar there, you feel. But he evidently hasn't. How does this result in the complete breakdown of relations

with Octavian? Octavian loses it. I mean, it's a gift to Octavian, really. He now kind of goes up the ante on the kind of propaganda campaign against Anthony. He goes and retrieves his will, which is kept in the guard of the Vestal Virgins. And he claims to reveal to the people what it says. And he says that Anthony intends to leave his property to his heirs, his true heirs are going to be Cleopatra and the Egyptian family essentially, not his Roman-born children. And Octavia's out of the picture now as well, is she?

Well, he is horrible. I mean, she goes over and tries to sort of reconvene with him. She does her best, but ultimately he serves her with divorce papers. Wow. Okay. It feels like Mark Anthony has crossed his own Rubicon or should we call Crossed His Nile by this point. There's no going back to then serve divorce papers to Octavia. Octavian's already raging and he's just decided, right, well, let's do this then. I think there's nothing he can really do.

He's outlawed by the Senate. He's seen to be a threat. They seem to be very worried in Rome that he might end up sort of ruling Rome from Alexandria. And Octavian declares war on Cleopatra, Cleopatra alone. Interesting. Okay. Okay, okay. And is that how he frames it in the Senate as well? You know, this barbarian queen, this non-Roman queen who's now a threat to the state of Rome? Precisely. And so, how does it go from there? How do they prepare for this big climactic war, which is the climax to the Anthony and Cleopatra story?

It is. So we're coming up to the Battle of Actium, Tristan. And I know it's a favourite of yours. Well, almost as good as Alexander. Yeah, you're quite right. So this is going to be like the final showdown between Octavian and Anthony. And I say Octavian. I say Marcus Agrippa. was really playing the major role here on the kind of Octavian side. Anthony tries to send Cleopatra away. He says, you know, go to safety. She refuses. She wants to stay with him for this. And I think it's not just, you know, love that's binding them at this stage.

I feel like emotionally they are invested in this together. They're in it together. So how many years have they now been together? It must be a good five, six or seven years by this time. Oh, yeah. More than that, we're coming up for, so Tarsus, I think was 41. Battle of Actium is happening at the beginning of September 31. And take out a couple of years.

when he's gone back to Italy and reconciled of Octavia for a bit. But it's 10 years with breaks. Okay, right. And so Mark Antsey, by this time, he's gathered a large army from the eastern portion of the empire. Actium, so that's kind of northwest Greece, that kind of the bay almost in Epirus, Arta, today, and Brachia. So a big land army, but also big navies, you'd think with the Ptolemaic support, you know, as mentioned earlier, the Hellenistic superpowers are known for their massive warships,

like their sevens, eights, nine's, tens. It's like the dreadnoughts of the ancient world, against the Roman chips. You would think that, I mean, they had the advantage. They should have had the advantage. They absolutely should have had the advantage, but they just didn't have the kind of figure that Octavian does in Marcus Agrippa.

Because he masterminds this. I mean, he manages to sail over with their fleet. He's actually going to be using some smaller ships in this, which ends up being plenty, yeah. It ends up being a good idea. he managed to see some of Anthony's supply ships on route, which kind of spooks him. They take over Corfu so they can kind of use that as a naval base, which is a good move. And then Marcus Agrippa essentially organizes a blockade.

So you've got to imagine acting as being kind of like a crescent-shaped bay. And you've got Anthony's boats, and then Cleopatra had her own armada of 60, a kind of reserve armada, which is lined up behind. And then you've got these boats and there's basically like a massive standoff. between these two sides, and you kind of gradually get sort of firing of missiles between ships. They're just kind of waiting for something to happen. And it's ultimately, it's one of Anthony's side, one of the ships, starts to move forward. And that provides the opportunity for Marcus Agripper to really get things going. And what we're really seeing there is kind of like ramming of individual ships. And there's a lot of kind of fire. But it's slightly murky in the

sources, because when you read the sources, you think this is a total damp squib of a battle. speak for yourself but at the same time you read that there are 5,000 losses and it's unclear whether that's on Anthony Cleopatra's side or that's overall I mean but that's quite a lot I mean that's considerable right for a relatively small bay

but what happens in the event is that as these two sides are engaging water opens up between the two and Cleopatra just decides to sort of sail through it and sail off and I mean in my own head I kind of think this was always going to be the plan I just don't think Mark Anthony would have let her be part of this had it not been for her having an escape route. So she takes it.

Anthony sails after her. He leaves then his ships to be kind of finished off by Octavian. And at that point, it's game over for them. Which is complete opposite to the Mark Anthony of earlier years, you know, who's fighting with his men in the mountains of northern Italy or whatever, and he's always there with them. And then he just runs off. It also screams in a weird kind of way. like the Basil of Salamis or something like that with Queen Artemisia and the like

and almost a trope of the powerful queen then making a break for it out of it so I don't know how much we can believe of it or not or... I know it's tricky, it is tricky our accounts have actually been really problematic and I absolutely think there are shades of Artemisius she's with the sole naval female commander in the Gricopersian wars and I kind of think

that was very much in the historian's mind as they were describing that but Cleopatra isn't a hero in the same way Artemisio was kind of hailed as being a heroine there you go well you know more than I do on that and we could nerd out well I could no doubt on the military details of Actium, but we certainly, I'll spare you the pain of that for the moment. We'll move on to the end. So they don't die at the Bastavactium, but it's a clear crushing victory for Octavian and Agrippa. Mark Anthony abandons his army and his Navy. They

retreat to Egypt, and this is almost famous from Shakespeare. This is the last act of the two together. Yeah, and I kind of say Shakespeare isn't a terrible source for this, because actually he was taking most of the plot of this part of the play from Pluto. who was our main source on this. And it's very much wrapped in romance and it's very difficult to know exactly what you believe. But, I mean, there's a sense of dejection,

particularly on Anthony's side. Earlier in the kind of heyday of their romance, they'd been these kind of great couple in love and they'd had this sort of society of inimitable, as they called it. They kill that off and become partners in death. This is what we're talking. So she, I mean, she, for her part, Cleopatra, tries to raise a navy.

She tries to raise some ships in the kind of sea region, but every which way is blocked by Octavian and the alliances that he has formed. So it's incredibly difficult. With the Red Sea as well, that feels just out of the way anyway. Yeah, I know, but she has kind of has this plan. I kind of think she might have been wanting to go away. There was some speculation she was wanting to get to India. Oh, okay.

She sent Zerian off there. But she just can't get away. So she knows that she's trapped. So what she do is she traps herself even more. She goes to the mausoleum that she was building. And she seals herself inside with two of her serving women. who are iras and karmion. And she sends notice to tell Anthony that she's dead. And he hears this and then he resolves to commit suicide. And he can't do it himself, it seems. He asks one of his

slaves called Eros to do it for him. Iros kills himself. Anthony then tries to stuff himself, but he's not very good at doing it. So he fails on that front. And ultimately what we're told is that he is bleeding. Cleopatra hears that he is, you know, in a bad way and asks for him to be brought to her mausoleum to her tomb. And it's a two-story mausoleum. They've sealed themselves in so he can't come in through the door. He is wrenched up, lifted in through the window by these three women and he dies in her arms. So they die together in Cleopatra's mausoleum, where that is, we don't know today. Great mystery. Under the sea, I would say. Under the sea, Lochias Peninsula way, probably. And then so Cleopatra is the last one standing.

She's the last one standing. So we know that she outlives Mark Antony. And she is trying very much to bargain with Octavian. She is determined to save Caesarian. She really was trying to get Egypt really to be inherited by her children. At one point, Octavian says, you know, we'll look after you, or be fine for you if you give up Antony. This is sort of earlier in the situation. At this point, it just becomes a lot of negotiations between the walls. And it becomes so bad on her side. She's basically she knows what Octavian wants, which is to drag up. her alive as a prisoner, show her off in his great parade that he's going to celebrate afterwards for his victory in Rome. That's the last thing she wants. So she tries to commit suicide by cutting herself. She's stopped by the Romans. She's dragged off to the palace. And she has to make other plans. And I mean, Pluto tells us that she's been actually investigating poisons and other means of trying to kill herself for some time. And the great famous story is that she gets what she wants. She gets the poisonous snakes, an asp is what we're told in the source, under a pile of figs in a basket, brought to her door, and then it's a bite that kills her.

It seems unlikely, doesn't it? I mean, some historians have tried to say, it must have been a cobra, it might have been another kind of snake. I think the most convincing thing we get from this is that after she does actually succumb, there are said to be puncture marks on her arm. and I think maybe for the people looked at those and thought snake I mean most kind of rational people probably would have looked at that and thought needle or like fatal injection

of some kind I think she probably did poison herself I think she probably had a supply of poison Faced injections back then can they do that Well they could inject with a sharp object Right okay yes and also if you're handing figs to someone surely you can smuggle also a knife or something that isn't a poisonous snake beneath the figs can you but it's a knife kind of

I was going to say romantic maybe not romantic romantic. Yeah, no, no, no, mine, maybe not that. But do you know what I mean? It's a very memorable end to the story, isn't it? It is. It is. It is.

He's kind of Romeo and Julietesque are, you know, kind of dying so close together. And yet, they are ultimately the losers. I mean, their legacy has endured down to the present day. Thanks largely to Shakespeare, should we say? Yes, absolutely. Shakespeare, we have to thank for that. And as I said, I mean, he's using Plutarch. I mean, I think this is a really nice way to sort of look at the story.

It's an accessible way of understanding it. How do you think Anthony and Cleopatra's legacy, whether it endured at all in Roman imagination after 30 BC when Octavian becomes the top dog, he will ultimately become Emperor Augustus. Do you think actually their story is popular in Roman times or it is only later with Shakespeare and now down to the present day that we have it like front and centre when we think ancient history? I think people are definitely talking about it,

partly because there are efforts then to kind of kill off her dynasty entirely. Caesarian is killed as a threat to Octavian. He's 16 at that point. the eldest son of Anthony Ditto, the younger ones are actually raised by darling Octavia, you know, Wonder Woman, and the daughter grows up, and she manages to, she gets married to King Juba, the future king from Mauritania. So, you know, there is some future from them, but she, and Theopatra is the last of the, sort of the Talmud rulers of Egypt, she's the last pharaoh. And I think this is a huge end point for the Romans, and they're talking about her a lot.

we're told that actually statues of her kept up in some areas so I think people want to remember her and want to talk about her but from the kind of Roman perspective it's very much a key victory Daisy I could ask so many more questions about this but we have to finish here

what a story to do Anthony and Cleopatra it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the show it's my pleasure well there you go there was the one and only Dr Daisy Dunn

returning to the show to talk through the story, the legendary story of Antony and Cleopatra. I hope you enjoyed the episode, an episode which you can now also watch on our new Ancans YouTube channel. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients. Please follow our show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. If you'd also be kind enough to leave us a rating as well, we'd really appreciate that. Now don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hits Podcasts at free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. That's all from me. I'll see you in the next episode.