The Ancients - Artemis: Goddess of the Hunt

Episode Date: March 16, 2024

Artemis is best known as the goddess of the Hunt. But she is far more than just the famed huntress of Greek mythology - she is the patron of the wilderness, of wild animals, of childbirth and also chastity. Daughter of the gods Zeus and Leto, she is famed for her lust for divine retribution and her prowess with a bow, a trait she shares with her twin brother Apollo.In today’s episode of The Ancients, Tristan Hughes continues our Gods and Goddesses series as we delve into one of the most fascinating and fickle goddesses of the Greek pantheon. He is joined by Jasmine Elmer as they discuss Artemis’s relationship with her brother, explore the importance of her virginity to her followers and discover she turns one of her favourite hunters into a stag. You can preorder Jasmine’s book Goddess with a Thousand Faces hereWe need your help! We’re working on something special and we need your questions about the Roman Empire. Let us know here.The Senior Producer was Elena Guthrie. Script written by Andrew Hulse. Voiceover performed by Nichola Woolley. The Assistant Producer was Joseph Knight. Edited and Mixed by Aidan Lonergan.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Get a subscription for £1 per month for 3 months with code ANCIENTS - sign up here.You can take part in our listener survey here.

Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. So asks the priestess of Taurus. She is an unlikely executioner, young and beautiful. That's clear even through the veil. But all Orestes can focus on is the knife glinting in her hand. He came to Taurus to fulfill a sacred charge. Steal the statue of Artemis from her temple.

The gods have promised him that it is the final task of his atonement, that it will bring to a close the cycle of king-killing that has plagued his family. Orestes, who killed his mother, Clytemnestra. Clytemnestra, who killed her husband, Agamemnon. But Orestes made it no further than the Taurian coast. A fisherman spied his boat and brought the city guards. You see, the laws of Taurus are simple. Any Greek who trespasses the shores must die. And so Orestes has been brought before the priestess, bound and tied. She is to prepare him, to anoint and purify him, and finally

to lead him out to sacrifice. But something gives her pause. She stands before him, meets his gaze, those eyes green flecked with gold, like tarnished copper. This is the first time a prince's blood will stain our temple steps. Orestes' surprise is unmistakable. It's your eyes, the priestess explains. They're just like your sister's, Iphigenia. How could you know that? Orestes replies. My sister died when she was little more than a child. Artemis demanded it in revenge. The priestess laughs then. A sudden, sharp thing that cuts like no bronze ever could. Ignorance does not become a prince. Let the muses tell you.

Let them tell you of Artemis's true revenge. you of Artemis' goddess of the hunt. Now to kick off this episode as we do with all of our Greek gods and goddesses episodes, we're beginning it with a story, a retelling of a myth closely associated with Artemis. And the myth we've chosen is the story of Iphigenia, princess of Mycenae and the daughter of King Agamemnon, leader of the Greek forces in the Trojan War. Now, Iphigenia's story is a tragic one. It's a tale where the Greek leaders, including her dad Agamemnon, decided to sacrifice her to Artemis to appease this deity. Following this retelling, we have an interview with the very engaging and straight-talking classicist Jasmine Elmer to explore more of Artemis' very complex story. She is so much more than just the goddess of the hunt.

I really do hope you enjoy. Here's the myth retelling, and then here's Jasmine to talk all things Artemis. The Muses start their song with the snapping of canvas and the creaking of bowlines. There are so many ships moored in the Euripus Strait that you could walk from Aulis on one side to be a sheer on the other via their decks and gangways. So many painted sails that the horizon is all but lost in a riot of colour. It is the greatest armada the world has ever seen.

And it is trapped. A savage wind blows from the east from the direction of Troy, and all the kings of Greece know it for a sign. One of the gods does not favour their conquest. A swarm of prophets, soothsayers and oracles descend then upon Aulis. Soothsayers and oracles descend, then, upon Aulis. The Euspices make an offering of one hundred goats, sheep, and heifers, consulting entrails for some diagnosis of divine displeasure. The Scapulamancers dig through sacrificial offcuts of shoulder bones with ominous abnormalities. The Cartomancers cut cards.

The Claromancers cut cards The claromancers throw dice The pyromancers light 100 fires on the beach And by their light, the numerologists scribble a century of proofs in the sand Finally, Calchas the Augur comes before Agamemnon, King of Kings While taking a census of the girls I spied a buzzard watching, not stalking it was Artemis, the huntress it is she who keeps this fleet trapped

Agamemnon looks up in dread then at the pair of gilded antlers that decorate the temporary throne room on his ship Artemis' disfavour is not with the Greek conquest. It is with him. Words may be winged, but they cannot be caged. Soon all the kings know Agamemnon's folly. He has killed Artemis' sacred deer while hunting in the hills of Aulis. And now, Calchas, the augur, insists there is only one recourse,

one way the Armada will ever set sail. The King of Kings must kill something equally dear to him. He must sacrifice one of his children. Does Agamemnon do so willingly? Even the Muses cannot agree on that. It happens sometimes, a discord slipping into their song. Truth may be singular to a deathless god, but not to a human. Mortal minds always hold truths that are multiple, Mortal minds always hold truths that are multiple, conflicting, cacophonous. And so one of the Muses' melodies contends Agamemnon cared nothing for any of his children,

only ever for Troy. Another vows he loved them all deeply, that he refused and raged and raved until he saw the threat of mutiny in the other king's eyes. And a third insists it was a different fear altogether that guided him. What if by dallying, by arguing, he worsened Artemis's punishment? What if she demanded a specific child? What if she came for his son, Orestes? Eventually, the muser's song does reach harmony, though.

But there is no denying a child is summoned to Aulis. One of Agamemnon's daughters, Iphigenia. She believes she comes to marry swift-footed Achilles, the best of the Greeks. And as the procession leads her down to the beach, her heart soars. Then it stops. There is no bridegroom. There is no feast. There is Calchas, and there is a pyre.

Her screams are enough to split the sky, enough to put every bird in Aulis to flight Every bird, except one lone buzzard Artemis watches the scene on the beach with confusion Yes, she sought to punish Agamemnon The deer was sacred to her. But so too are young women, virgin girls brought to marriage. She will have her revenge on Agamemnon and the Greeks, but not like this. She stretches gilded talons, she unfurls great golden wings and she explodes into the sky like a spark from the anvil. Down on the beach, Iphigenia begins to feel the lick of the flames when something descends,

draping her in a feathered cloak. It is a moment of calm in the heart of the inferno, a single smokeless breath. And then comes the lightness. Her limbs shedding their weight till she is little more than a feather herself, caught in the pyre's updraft. When she finally looks down, she can see them. Soldiers, kings, Calchas, her father. Cowards all. They have turned away in the final moments and so none of them notice her flight. Then the beach slips away and she is gliding over wooden hulls and canvas sails, the greatest armada the world has ever seen. And then the ships slip away too, and there is nothing, nothing but the endless wine-dark sea.

It was a long way Artemis carried that young girl, the priestess says, waving her knife as if conducting the muses' song to a close. Across the Aegean, all the way to this temple in Taurus, Artemis brings her. There, the goddess gives her a sacred charge. Any Greek who trespasses Taurus' shores must die. And Iphigenia, that girl who every Greek stood back and watched die, she carries it out willingly, gladly, because she is Artemis' true revenge. And now the gods send to Iphigenia you, her father's son, her father's favourite.

And as she speaks, the priestess edges closer and closer, bringing the knife closer and closer till Orestes can see a reflection in the polished blade. Eyes green flecked with gold, like tarnished copper. But it is not his reflection. It is the priestess. It is a Vigenia. We always were a family of king killers, she whispers. And the knife trembles at Orestes' throat. Jasmine, it is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Welcome to the show. And the knife trembles at Orestes' throat. about doing this episode together months ago, almost a year ago when we were at a book launch, I think it was Michael Scott, wasn't it? And now we're finally here talking about Artemis. Jasmine, first off, no such thing as a silly question, who was Artemis? I love that. Well, Artemis is obviously one of the Greek goddesses of the main Olympian goddesses. And she is goddess of many, many things. Obviously, we'll get into this in a moment. But most notably, hunting, wild animals, chastity, and that kind of domain. She's actually quite a lot of things.

And I feel like sometimes we'll think of virginity. I don't know if that's the word you were hoping that I would say. But most people go, goddess of virginity. But let's hold off on that. But in fact, she's goddess of so many different things. So many different things. And it seems to be with all of these deities, we think of them, we associate them with one thing like Ares, War, Poseidon, the sea, but there's always so much more to their story, which I love. But one thing I'd like to ask first of all, before we kind of go

into her origins, is when we see depictions of Artemis and statues and pottery and so on, I mean, how is she usually portrayed? Yeah, so she's usually portrayed as a young maiden, so a young woman, often in some kind of hunting scene. So therefore, you often see her associated with bows, spears, any hunting weaponry like that. She can have a deer skin cape sometimes to sort of connect her to the wild an animal pelt cap it's that kind of thing sometimes there's wild animals around like a deer or something like that

but very much situated as a young woman in in the wilderness often is her main kind of motif and alongside animals is she because i got it in my notes here is she sometimes surrounded by things like nymphs these other kind of mythical creatures yeah and there are a couple of traditions where she was maybe the first nymph not necessarily olympian goddess but the first nymph but she is associated with nymphs which makes sense because nymphs are essentially little goddesses that relate to natural places so because she is in the wild she's surrounded by the nymphs that personify springs and trees and other such things, mountains. So sometimes we see her with those young women too. Fair enough. Well, let's delve into her origin story. I love the origin stories of these figures.

What is the story about how Artemis comes to be? So Artemis is a twin. So she is born with her twin god, Apollo. And I know we'll probably want to chat about that later on and her mother is Leto and her father is Zeus so it's quite an interesting kind of story already because we all know about Zeus and how many lovers he takes so you know these twins come together as a package I think that's the first thing I really want to make a point of, because their story is really important as they kind of evolve together as gods. So Jess, it's quite funny, isn't it? Zeus has all of these lovers and so many deities kind of come about

because of these love interests and other mythical creatures. It seems like Leto is quite similar. And then ultimately you get Apollo and Artemis, these twins. Now with Artemis, do we know much about her relationship first with her mother, Leto, and then with her twin brother, Apollo? Yeah, both relationships I think are quite pivotal and give us an idea, I think, about why we associate Artemis with certain things. So Leto has a strong connection with childbirth and one of the things that people get puzzled about all the time is if Artemis is a virginity goddess which is like

again I really want to get into that word later but why is she associated with childbirth because she is midwifery and childbirth and possible answer to that is actually this connection with Leto and through her mother and there is a famous story that when, as a twin, she was the firstborn in some traditions and actually helped birth her brother. So actually stood there with, which is not thought right as this newborn baby, helping get her brother out. And it might be that's where this connection to childbirth comes from midwifery through the mother and through that particular first role. And then of course you have her twin brother, through the mother and through that particular first role and then of course you have her twin brother Apollo and we see so many kind of I guess contrasts between these two gods as they grow up so famously they're both very obsessed with archery and there's a rivalry a sibling rivalry

I myself am my only child but if you've got siblings you'll know exactly what I'm chatting about is this competition between the two to who can be the best archer and kind of how and I guess the domains in which they do that quite different but you know they definitely have this rivalry and there's you know famously Apollo is connected to the sun and you know there are some traditions where Artemis is connected to the moon and I know that that's an interesting point to discuss as well, perhaps in a moment. So I think from the very outset, these relationships in some way forge our understanding

and the kind of characteristics of Artemis in the early stories. Well, I was going to ask that question about the moon and the sun a bit later, but as you've kind of hinted at it now, let's just explore it now. Because as soon as you say Apollo becomes god of the sun and Artemis goddess of the hunt and so much more in that so much more why does she become associated with the moon it's almost like the opposite of the sun yes exactly so I think the association with Apollo and the sun is kind of there pretty early on and light in general and there are different like kind of I guess ideas about where this connection to the moon because it's not necessarily there from the very outset there

are inklings of it but it's not a very strong association but one association could be to do with the fact that as Artemis is connected to things like childbirth and with me three then it makes sense that it might move to the menstrual cycle and then the menstrual cycle is linked to the moon so it could be that she gets kind of conflated into that that notion of like fertility in that particular way again that feels weird right because we keep talking about this idea of virginity but this aspect of her character so that's the first thing perhaps to say about it and there's also some tradition in that she plutarch says that she was the goddess that brought the full moon for the battle of salamis so it could be that it was like a again a tradition that arrived because really you see this real connection with the moon particularly into the

roman period when artemis becomes diana and this connection with the moon gets stronger and stronger because we really think of diana associated with the moon moon. So it's a bit of a later slash Roman thing rather than a Greek thing. But just to be clear, it is sort of there in inklings in the Greek tradition as well. Really nice to highlight that straight away. And as we kind of go and explore these kind of different aspects of how she's worshipped, what she represents, I mean, I must also ask quickly, this is a slight tangent, Jasmine, but if we know something about her relationship with her mother, Leto, and of course with her twin brother, Apollo, do we know much from the myths, from the story of Artemis about her relationship with her dad, with Zeus?

Yeah. I mean, I think there are obviously aspects of this that go on, but in the same, I shouldn't say this to you. I mean, Zeus isn't really listening, so I could say this. He's a bit of a hands-off daddy, isn't he, at times? He sort of goes round a bit. A deadbeat dad, I think they call him. So in terms of more of his role, off he goes, getting all these kids out into the world and then just disappears. So of course there are associations. I can think of perhaps some reasonably generic examples, perhaps, where she will appeal to Zeus and Zeus will be like, okay, cool, we'll help you out out there nothing massive is popping up into my mind but of course I think that like all of Zeus's children sometimes in myth they will just go dad help me out something's happened and then he will

but I don't it's not really a big part of her story really I think it's very much and although we've spoken about Leto and apollo you know that's a part of her origin story i wouldn't say that that's a dominating factor in fact i kind of want to get away from the idea that we should look at artemis in like always in association with apollo because we need to look at her in our own right as well so i think think of that as an origin thing rather than a all the time leto and apollo Apollo knocking around in the background and you know giving her orders on what to do or changing the course of her stories absolutely fair enough also I love that idea of Zeus's hands off dad that's great I've never heard that one before I mean come on though it is isn't it absolutely you're quite right you're quite right

okay well let's as you say let's explore Artemis the figure and all the things that she's associated with I mean first of all as goddess of the hunt now once again there's such thing as a silly question we have in our minds what a hunt is today but what was a hunt in ancient Greek times yeah I mean obviously again that's a lovely broad question there Tristan because it would have changed obviously over time and I think it's really important to get real with it, first of all, and understand that hunting in very early cultures is a necessity. So what was it in early, very early Greek society? It was, I need food. I am going to get it.

And, you know, that's the first thing to say. So people needed to go and hunt wild animals to live. animals to live so what i think you're getting at and the thing that people are more interested is how does that become if you like a pastime or a more ritualistic thing that occurs and then under the domain of someone like artemis i think that you can connect that closely to the male elites of any greek society so from from the thing where i need to go out and get some food you get this concept of let's make hunting some kind of sporting event some kind of elite event where men who are in higher up in echelons of greek society would come together and they would go out on a hunt as really as a masculinity element you know kind of going

out as a masculine thing and of course as part of that there are rituals and there are there's a religious connotation with artemis as well but i think it's important to that of course, as part of that, there are rituals and there's a religious connotation with Artemis as well. But I think it's important to that. Of course, it's not to say there aren't female hunters. And of course, we've got examples in mythology of that. But I think in terms of what's going on in Greek society, it's a male dominated space. Interestingly, though, overseen by a young woman in the form of Artemis. I mean, exactly. So as Artemis is the goddess of the hunt, I mean, what does that involve? I mean, how do these young elite men pay their respect to this deity as they go on these hunts and so on? Yeah, I mean, again, I think that's a little bit

broad as well, because obviously I think that like religion today, I think all aspects can be personal so that you can't always know exactly what's going on. But traditional things that people would do, obviously there might be prayers or offerings to the goddess before a hunt purification so one of the really interesting things is hunters would abstain from having sex before they went on a hunt i mean this is reasonably gross you probably don't want to get into this too much but the reason was apparently that purification meant there were no scents on their body and obviously that might be that connection with virginity or that chastity element that comes into Artemis. So we can think sometimes about the connections between the men that are kind of

hunting and Artemis to be a little bit more kind of fluid, I think, than what we're thinking them as being. So that might be where that connection to virginity comes in or chastity. But yeah, so as you know, talking about prayers, you're talking about rituals. Obviously, there are places to go and worship Artemis. Possibly, though, they're more female spaces than they would be male spaces. And I'm generalizing again there. But I think that her wider worship was quite attractive to women. And that's because of that young maiden element.

We can obviously talk about that in a moment, but that element of it was probably very strong. And of course, there are other like deities that relate to the wild that hunters might connect to, like Pan or someone like that as well. So I think that's where we get this, I don't want to call it pick and mix religion

because that sounds a bit strange, but in some ways that is kind of what's going on. So we might get, you know, kind of a few different deities being called called upon to honor the hunt and and assist with it because it is so interesting and i like that being you know ritual purification is absolutely important to highlight as you mentioned like you know not going out after having sex or you have to clean yourself because i mean that is something that you see time and time again in ancient societies this kind of distancing sex and doing rituals and stuff. So once again, you

can see why that is there. I mean, what I also find quite interesting as an outsider, as a Joe Bloggs looking into this, I don't know too much about this, is how, yes, Artemis seems to be associated as a hunter, but at the same time, you know, she's goddess of the wilderness of wild animals. So it's almost like she's rooting for both sides in the hunt in a kind of way yeah that's that's a really that's a really good point and i actually never thought about it like that it's obviously really obvious actually when you think of it but yeah i think that is and that's where i like to get into the i can really introduce the point i want to make about artis artis in a wider sense which is she's really complex and that's the one of the things

about her that i love because so easy to just relegate her to this oh this wild goddess celestia sort of thing and that's all she is but that there's a complexity even in that how can you be a preserver of nature and a lover of wild animals and then encourage others to to hunt and i think that that is just a i haven't got a nice answer for you about that i think this is one of those complexities, paradoxes about that you get with gods. You just get things when you're like, what is that about? How can it be that and that? But I think that's because people are that and that.

Because gods essentially, although they're gods, they do reflect human nature. So having these contrasts, I think, is probably really quite expected. I'm sure when you talk about other gods, you see these contrasts and go is probably really quite expected i'm sure when you talk about other gods you see these contrasts and go oh another one but i mean really anything that goes on in the wild spaces is her is her thing so it's all that all aspects of those wild spaces i would imagine that she is connected to and also another quick tangent before we kind of go on to this thing i know you really want to talk about which is virginity and this idea of artisans as a virgin goddess as you mentioned earlier kind of like places where she's worshipped. And I'm imagining, you know, your classic Greek temples, but because she's

so associated with the wild and the wilderness, should we also be imagining things like sacred groves or places out in nature for the worship of Artemis? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, harder to pinpoint archaeologically, you know, to know that those things are going on. But there's enough evidence from various sources that that type of worship would have gone on. And it just also makes logical sense, which is sometimes how I quite like to approach these things. But you're right. Absolutely, there will have been worship going on more privately, more personally in those sorts of spaces, like you say, in groves. And the mountains regions are very much connected to Artemis. You know, in lots of mythological traditions, it's the mountain that she's roaming on it's always a

mountain so you know those sorts of spots absolutely and then of course you've got you know those temple complexes and actually there's there's a lot of evidence for very widespread worship of artemis across the mediterranean which is another thing that people don't really really know about her or think about her that she actually was kind of a great unifier as a goddess because we can see this evidence of her worship across the Mediterranean in various forms. So not just this minor goddess that's part of a bigger pantheon of often sometimes more male gods, but actually really quite powerful and well-respected across the Mediterranean world. That's very interesting. And I think there's certainly a name of Ephesus,

which we'll get to in time, which is super, super, super interesting. let's first explore this whole idea of Artemis as the virgin goddess I mean Jasmine there feels like there's a lot to unpack with this part of Artemis's story yeah there is I think that it's a bit of my mission and certainly when I've written about Artemis in my? Yeah, there is. I think that it's a bit of my mission. And certainly when I've written about Artemis in my book, I think it's very easy. And again, I'm going to use the swear word, patriarchy. I think it's been easy

with a more patriarchal view of gods and goddesses that has amassed over time, which thankfully is absolutely reversing nowadays. But, you know we I think wanting to just relegate her to this thing that's virginal chaste is really to do a massive disservice because she's also incredibly kind of vengeful and dark and has all these other

sides so it's not that I mind that we connect her to chastity because it's true she has those connections and associations is more that I think that that then we kind of like demote her from from from a very powerful goddess a vengeful goddess and we see so much of that in the mythical tradition about her her vengeful side and her dark side and I think that when we just when we first go to the virgin goddess which is how a lot some people will refer to her kind of off the bat, I think we just start to miss out on all the nuance and kind of murkiness of her character, which is, for me, far more fascinating

than just, oh, okay, this connection to chastity, which we've already sort of looked at. We will get into that darker side. And it's really interesting because Demeter is very similar, that kind of vengeful Demeter after the abduction of her daughter, Persephone. And I found that fascinating. But I mean, yes, we have kind of mentioned it earlier, but just to kind of clarify for the followers of Artemis Jasmine back in ancient Greek times, this whole idea as, you know, this chaste young goddess and associated with childbirth as well. Should we still though imagine that this was very important for those who would have gone and worshipped artemis i don't want to just kind of throw it out completely

no no no i didn't mean to say that i think what i'm trying to do is spotlight an area that i think that we don't focus on rather than trying to i'm not trying to suggest that the rest of it's useless you're completely right for her followers the primary thing really probably is is a protectress of young girls and young maidens because you know essentially when you are before you're married and you're a young you're a young woman you are essentially under the protection of Artemis and you transfer into the protection of them more matronly goddesses once you you're married so yeah of course that's so important and there are loads of ritualistic and festivals that relate to that one element. So don't get me wrong, that is important. But it's just, I think, also to understand that because of the way that perhaps more patriarchal views have

perpetrated over the years, you get the notion then that there's no power in that somehow. And I think it's just important to understand that her stories these young women that know her stories know that she's got that side to her and and that's kind of fascinating as well so that's all i mean by that so you're right let's not mislead any of your listeners to think all right well then there's nothing to do with it of course plenty to do with it yeah absolutely and you've explained it so well so far jasmine and it's kind of we're now absolutely setting up perfectly that other part of artemis's story let's talk about artemis and divine retribution because this is certainly a goddess that you don't want to cross you get your comeuppance if you come well if you get on the

bad side of artemis don't you oh for sure exactly i mean i know this is again those people that are big into their mythology know that this happens with goddesses this is not like she's not like think about here and you know like kind of the the vengefulness of that goddess so it's not that it's specific to her but I think like it's particularly brutal stuff and I kind of love that I'm not that I'm not like a sadist but just I just think it's a fascinating aspect of her character especially for a young woman as we're saying so I mean multiple myths so many I think you know tens and tens of myths that relate to her divine retribution should we focus on I mean should we do the story of Actaeon because this is the one that I've heard of the name Actaeon the hunter

and this is quite a classic and it's yeah I mean poor old Actaeon but he kind of got it you know yeah sure he got what was coming for him let's tell us the story of acteon jasmine well i'm glad you picked that one actually because that's the one i've done the retelling of in my book so nice job and we didn't actually set that up so i appreciate that but yeah so acteon is a hunter probably previous to this episode reasonably beloved by artemis for being a hunter and he's out and about and he how about as you are in the forest and notices Artemis bathing in a pool with her nymphs obviously unclothed you can imagine that as a woman that guards her chastity and holds that very high doesn't like that very much so poor old Actaeon gets turned into a stag by Artemis.

And that's not the best. No, that's OK. That's fine. But the cool bit or brutal bit, I'm making myself sound like a real nutter here, aren't I, basically. But the cool bit is his own hunting dogs then turn on him and rip him apart as a stag. I mean, if you ever want a story about the dangers of the male gaze on a woman, that's the one. I don't know if any man would ever look up again at a woman thinking about that particular story. But that's just, again, I mean, this is, again, a lot of interpretations of that are, oh, she's so obsessed with her virginity that she's so brutal.

But I would say that she owns and guards her own sexuality. And this is a punishment for someone trying to take any of that power away from her. Rather than like, oh, I know that there's a lot of, especially, you know, Renaissance, kind of later ideas about this kind of very demure woman, like trying to cover herself up. And it's kind of like she feels vulnerable. But I think in lots of ways, actually, the vengeance shows actually, it's like, that's my power, don't you take that away from me. but I think in lots of ways actually the vengeance shows actually

it's like that's my power don't you take that away from me and has you know kind of shown you the kind of violence in her in her

as you said her retribution for that crime as she sees it I mean Axiom was a peeping Tom he could have walked away he didn't

and you know yes of course he got what was coming for him he did just stand there according to most traditions he didn't just sort of try and run off so yeah

fair enough maybe it's come up and so i mean we'll leave that to your listeners to work out what they think exactly i know that this interview as we've all are in g's in the greek gods and goddesses interviews is preceded by retelling of a myth associated with the goddess or goddess and this one is not the story of actin although i kind of wish now it was because that is Brutal but absolutely also so cool but it is actually another story related to the Trojan war now to kind of set the scene for us Jasmine so many deities take part in the Trojan war they take one side or the other how does Artemis fit into the Trojan war I mean what side does she take and how involved is she yeah so she uncharacteristically maybe goes on the same side as her brother. So they both are supporters of Troy. So in terms of her involvement, there are multiple little

examples of where she's involved in the war. There's a few healings and things like that, but most famously is the story probably of Iphigenia. Yes. So let's explore. You absolutely know me right, Jasmine. So let's explore, what is the story of Iphigenia. Yes. So let's explore. You absolutely know me right, Jasmine. So let's explore. What is the story of Iphigenia? Yeah, well, very tragic story, really. So we have the Greeks are trying to come over and attack Troy and they're becalmed. So Artemis makes the sea unsalable for them. And a prophet tells Agamemnon, who is the leader of the Greek troops, that he can't sail unless he sacrifices his daughter to Artemis to calm her down and give favourable seas. And so he does this. He offers up Iphigenia as a sacrifice to Artemis. And there

are various interpretations of her willingness to do that but seemingly she's willing to give herself up to Artemis as a sacrifice and in fact there are rituals that young girls followed at a festival the Boronia where they would imitate this slightly as well there's a connection to that was giving themselves up for sacrifice as well so brutal but another another one where Artemis is is using her divine retribution really and powers to meddle in the lives of mortals so it's quite interesting that she's associated with the sea there because we've talked about the moon we talked about the hunt we talked about the wilderness and virginity but in this case she's also associated with the sea is this a one-off or is this also something we also see associated with her or the winds I guess yeah guess. Yeah, I mean, yes. Absolutely right. It's the winds that are whipping up. The sea is obviously

really Poseidon's domain. Most of the time, it's weathers that cause bad seas anyway, isn't it? Rather than coming from underneath. I think there is this inherent nature in Artemis as being something quite wild. Let's go into the legacy and the depictions, the importance of Artemis to Greek societies, both in ancient times and for people more generally in more recent history. How has she been depicted? Let's start with art. How is she depicted usually in art in ancient Greek history? And I know, once again, it's a broad question, so it probably changes over time.

But that's another great part of Artemis's story is that she is so complex so depictions of Artemis they must vary in different forms yeah they do I mean like I said the most common motif is this connection that we spoke about at the beginning which is this in some kind of wilderness so anything that relates to her in the wilderness what I love about her as well is she can wear short skirts which as we know most Greek women would not wear short skirts this was something that Spartan women would but you know most most women didn't they covered their legs but she was allowed short skirts and and and was portrayed as such which is a reasonably big deal to a greek viewer because obviously we don't see that very often in in their everyday lives but you get what

i love about her is you you often get her in action so i know that many artists try to show gods in action but because she is absolutely always hunting moving doing something you get these short skirts which you which donate essentially some sporting activity and then this movement with her and and i like that often there's interaction with wild animals like i said that you're a deer or something like that that associates you with her but you are right that there are times when that is downplayed slightly perhaps when we're trying to get out a little bit more about her connection to perhaps childbirth or midwifery or those contexts so you do find her in those

different spheres and obviously i know you're talking about the Greek image of her but of course when we get out into the Renaissance that changes somewhat I think in Greek art there is a an element of agency and power with Artemis often she's not relegated to like a tiny space or anything like that but I think we'll get to Renaissance where there's much more interest in in that kind of chaste I mean this is the thing that they do with all of them right this is not like a artemis specific but an interesting kind of her being quite demure and not as vengeful and kind of you know less powerful i think let's talk about building because what is this relationship that artemis has with one of the well according to the greek list the official seven wonders of the ancient world yeah so there is the famous temple of artemis at ephesus which sadly is now essentially a tiny bit of rubble surviving yeah which which is really

disappointing to people that go to see this wonderful ancient wonder and then go oh but it would have been an absolutely huge complex i mean like all these things there's this huge temple that would have been there and we went through various uh stages of destruction and rebuild as they often do when there's a site that is inhabited and used for a long time so it goes through various iterations but it really is a huge absolutely huge complex and again more than just a temple this is obviously a place of sanctuary for the goddess. So like with many sites, you get more than just a temple. You've got various other types of buildings that relate to that. I'm being general because there are so many different types of things. You can get theatres, you can get bar

complex, you can get all sorts of things that go alongside essentially situating it as a main site for Artemisis but what i think is really interesting about this is obviously this is in turkey so we're talking about i guess the border between the greek world and then the ancient near east and so the people at ephesus do kind of have their own type of artemis there their own specific i don't know if this is something you want to get into now. Yes, absolutely. This is extraordinary.

Yes, this is their own sort of version. I mean, there are many, like with all goddesses, there are many epithets and types of Artemis that exist, like many, many, probably thousands in the end, but definitely hundreds that happen all over the Greek world. So if you don't know, you have these goddesses or gods and they have these epithets, which are like elements of their character that a particular place wants to worship or take out of that god or goddess. So that happens all over the place.

But here at Ephesus, we kind of get like a little bit of a melding of the Greek Artemis with like Near Eastern gods and goddesses. And actually, her iconography is quite interesting because there is more of an interest then in her... She looks more sexual, I'm just going to be honest about it. There's possibility of having quite large breasts and rounded shape and curves that is much more, I think, common in near-Eastern iconography, less in the Greek. So they kind of create their own type of very distinctive Artemis at Ephesus. Yeah, she's more kind of like a mother goddess. It's like Kyberle, isn't it, to one of those goddesses that's mixed? Yes, yeah. And it's really interesting. As we know, these ancient cultures do tend to try to assimilate or connect their own

goddesses to ones in other cultures. So yes, there is absolutely that connection. And I think that people are very quick to label something a mother goddess as soon as they see any kind of chest, any kind of female chest. They're like, that must be maternal, motherly. I think that I understand that. I'm not saying that's not true.

Of course, there's definitely a good interpretation. But again, I don't want to denigrate her down to just that because we don't know what that worship was exactly like exactly and i think there's a credible theory that they're not breasts that they might be beehives instead which is very very interesting i remember doing an interview about that a long time ago you don't want them stuck to you well exactly you definitely do not want that i mean with jasmine this has been great so far i haven't got too much time left but i mean i'd like to talk a bit about legacy past ancient Greece. Obviously, she's so significant to all these different Greek city-states and

peoples who lived beyond the Greek mainland, instead of Turkey, but Western Mediterranean, I'm sure, further afield too in the Hellenistic times. When we do get to the Romans, and you mentioned Diana earlier, how much do they embrace the figure of Artemis when they kind of create the figure of Diana? Yeah, great question. Again, love your big questions. You ask the big ones, don't you? I mean, Diana, absolutely. I think what I like about Diana is that perhaps because the Romans are so even more obsessed with things like hunting,

I think they even almost in some ways raise her up even more as a goddess in terms of her power. I think that in lots of ways that becomes much more of what she's associated with in the Roman period, rather than the elements that are more to do with childbirth and midwifery. And of course, there is this element that there's still the young maid. It all continues. But I just feel like the Romans, they almost have a little shuffle up. continues but i just feel like the romans they almost have like a little shuffle up and i think that they put to the top this notion more of her as a hunt as a huntress and this kind of stronger figure and of course you get again this continued iconography with the wild continues and i and i think that romans you know you think about the roman sculptures you always nearly always think of

a goddess with something stuck to them which we know is like a more practical way of making satchels but you know there's often the animals around her and yeah I think that she becomes a little bit more powerful I would say I mean I don't know if you've got a view about Diana but I think she's definitely more of a huntress I think in the Roman thing in the Roman way of thinking than than anything else even though those facets still exist I'm not educated enough on the matter to really have a really significant view on this. Apart from that, it kind of makes me feel like the Amazons and stuff like that. And like kind of a halfway house is someone like Canane, who's the half-sister of Alexander the Great, who's called this Macedonian Amazon.

But I think she also very much represents Artemis as this young maiden with a bow and arrow and so on and so forth, and a horse and all that kind of stuff, and hunting, which is just really, really interesting, that kind of alignment when they get Hellenistic culture with elite women who are different to others, and then, of course, the Romans too. But I digress a bit. That's just my defense. I'm sorry, I could see you into that.

You're really into that. You could probably do another hour on that, couldn't you? No, maybe not another hour, but I could do half an hour, hour maybe the last thing i would ask is if we kind of go down to modern day i mean we have seen in i think star trek they have references to medusa and stuff like that and in other sci-fi shows and you know shows today they have depictions of greek gods and goddesses i mean are there references i mean interpretations of art Artemis's character I think that in recent years there's been more of an interest in her as a powerful figure a reclaiming of her as a as a powerful figure I think she is really she speaks a lot to younger women I think about how to be powerful

and there's a reclaiming on that on that level I absolutely think that in terms of like I can't think of anything specific to like popular imagination like there hasn't been a hollywood movie yet about artemis which i think they should do but i think really what what a lot of it's not just i would say not just kind of in the popular imagination but also in like scholarly work that i think there isn't a more of an interest in all of these goddesses but specifically as well as someone like artemis about let's have another look at her and let's see what we've missed. And when we do that, we start to see how utterly complex she is and how many aspects of herself there are. And I think that a lot of young women are finding that particularly powerful in accepting aspects of themselves,

which is certainly what my book is about as well. So I think she's about to have a bit of a comeback really that's my thing i think that she's she's gonna i mean i think that you as you know you know greek myths retellings and things like in terms of literature and documentaries and things like it's very it's very powerful and important so i think things she's gonna kind of pop up a bit more is what my my crystal ball interpretation of what might happen that's what the hunch is well jasmine this has been amazing you hinted it right there you do have a book

coming up which includes the story and you know reception of artemis and this book is all about well so my book's called goddess with a thousand faces and it's a mixture of mythical retelling and history all based on source material and I see 10 world goddesses you learn their stories some you'll recognize some you really won't and Artemis is one of them Artemis is chapter two so you get to read her story and learn a little bit more about Greek society and all the things that we've spoken about and it's out on pre-order now so you can find it somewhere in your show notes or on my instagram if you fancy heading over there on the show notes indeed get that book pre-ordered now well jasmine it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast

today thanks so much for having a great time well there you go there was jasmine elmer talking through the story of artemis the goddess of the hunt but also the moon of childbirth of chastity the virgin goddess but also this more vengeful this more ferocious side of artemis too i hope you enjoyed today's episode now the script for the myth retelling was done by Andrew Hulse, the narration was by Nicola Woolley, the assistant producer for the episode was Joseph Knight, the producer was Elena Guthrie, and the episode was all mixed together by Aidan Lonergan. Thank you to you all for making this episode a reality. We're very near the end of our Greek Gods and Goddesses series. Now, we've only got a couple more to do. There's Apollo, there's Dionysus, and then we might do a couple extras at the end, names such

as Heracles come to mind. But in the meantime, if you have been enjoying the Ancients podcast and you want to help us out when you know what you can do, you can leave us a lovely rating on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts from. That really helps us as we continue our everlasting mission to grow this podcast and to share these amazing stories from our distant past with you and with as many people as possible. And wherever you're listening to The Ancients, whether that be on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or elsewhere, make sure that you click the follow button that you are subscribed so that you don't miss out when we release new episodes twice every week. But that's enough from me, and I will see you in the next episode.