The Ancients - Artemis of Ephesus: The Great Mother Goddess

Episode Date: June 23, 2021

An incredibly popular goddess, characterised in statues of her by a vest of bee hives, or are they breasts … bull scrotums? In this episode Tristan speaks to Dr Carla Ionescu about the Ephesian Artemis, the great mother goddess. They discuss the arguments behind the different interpretations of the Artemis statues, her connections to other divine female figures, and her lasting impression on the ancient city of Ephesus.

Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like The Ancients ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. And in today's podcast, well, the ancient world was filled with some incredible deities, some more strange than others. And in this podcast, we're going to be focusing in on one particular ancient deity and this was Artemis. But not your usual Artemis, this is

Artemis of Ephesus, the great mother goddess. She was incredibly popular across the whole length and breadth of the ancient Mediterranean world. She has got some very unique characteristics on her statues that survive as you're going to hear in this podcast, and to talk all about what we know about the worship of this ancient divinity and what we know about the Ephesian Artemis, I was delighted to be joined by one of the leading lights in this field, Dr Carla Ionescu. Carla explains all from how the Ephesian Artemis came to be and this idea of fusion, all the way up to the time of Christianity and the link between Artemis of Ephesus and the Virgin Mary. So without further ado, here's Carla. Carla, it is wonderful to have you on the podcast.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited. Now, no problem at all. This is an interesting topic. Artemis of Ephesus, a story of bees, breasts and a goddess that was incredibly popular across the ancient Mediterranean. Correct. Incredibly popular is, I think, one of my favourite ways of starting the podcast because I feel like she's often underrated. So this is excellent. Yes. Well, thank you so much. We've only been going for 30 seconds, but I've got a tick. That means a lot. So let's start delving into this topic. We've got to start with the background and the origins, the creation of the Ephesian Artemis. And Ephesian Artemis, closing the name,

the ancient city of Ephesus. This is an incredible site in Western Turkey. ancient city of Ephesus. This is an incredible site in western Turkey. Yes. So the actual temple of the goddess Artemis in Ephesus is at the base of Mount Croesus. But Ephesus itself in the ancient world was a massive port city. It had approximately 40,000 male citizens at its peak. But overall, the population of the city would have been about 250,000 inhabitants. So scholars would say that this is probably perhaps the fourth largest city of its day behind Rome. So quite large as far as both inhabitants, the port area, the trade routes, and of course the Artemision, which is Artemis' famous temple. Now the whole word Artemis, we think of the

ancient Greek religion and all that. But when we're thinking about the Ephesian Artemis, and when we're looking at the origins of this deity, Carla, it's important to begin this discussion before, shall we say, the Greeks arrive at the site of Ephesus. Absolutely. So we'll go back a little bit, I think, maybe to the very beginning. So we'll go back a little bit, I think, maybe to the very beginning. The very interesting aspect of the term or the word Ephesus for the city, according to Pausanias anyways, is that actually the term Ephesus or the name Ephesus was derived from a word, a Mycenaean word called Ephasa, which actually means the city of the mother goddess.

So even before the Greeks arrived, and one can argue even pre-Mycenaean period, this city was almost like it was destined to be the place where this massive goddess would be established. And there's many rumors. There's rumors that the Amazons first established it, and they brought the cult statue when they were running away from Heracles. There's rumors that the temple itself, the first temple, was built based on a vision in which Artemis herself came into the dreams of the original architect. So there's a lot of pre-Greek history that connects the city to a goddess or a mother goddess. And I think in part that's why the city maintained so strongly this culture of worshipping a goddess in this way, and that she embodied so many aspects and characteristics of other goddesses. And it really lasted all the way until easily, the temple was up until about

second century CE when it was destroyed by the gods. And the worship of Artemis, one can argue, lasted all the way up until the fourth century CE when the Virgin Mary and Christianity became much more established within the city itself. So there's a lot of history and also continuous pattern among the Ephesians to worship a female divinity, a goddess divinity, in a very unique mother figure, you know? Because what's very unique about Artemis is that she has no children, and yet she is this sort of mother figure, this queen figure, numerous, she has numerous names, but a lot of those, the savior, there's a lot of these terminologies that are associated with her. So she's this grandiose divinity. And yet, ironically, in the modern world, we very rarely speak of her, especially in classics,

where we speak mostly of Athena or Demeter or Aphrodite. You mentioned this mother goddess figure and predating the Greeks. So predating, I guess, the name Artemis, because I've got in my notes here the name Kybele. Is this the name of this mother goddess, which we believe seems to be at the site of Ephesus before we have really the arrival of the Greeks there? Absolutely. So pre-Greek, we have the worship of Kybele, and many worshippers were in this area. Samothrace, for example. But there's many worshippers of Kybele everywhere. Crete, of course, Lydia, Phrygia. Kybali is one of the archaic mother goddesses from which scholars argue that many other female goddesses were pulled from or were inspired by, let's say. The connection

between Artemis and Kybali is complicated, but also fascinating because Kybali is a mother goddess, okay, but she's also the mistress of animals. She is also the mistress of forests and nature. And so in many ways, she can be easily connected to the Greek Artemis, right? And scholars have made that connection repeatedly. Well, the Greek Artemis of the hunt, of the wilderness, etc. But what we find at Ephesus is a really fascinating combination because while the Greek Artemis is the goddess of the hunt, the Ephesian Artemis is both mother and the mistress of the wilderness. And the mistress of the wilderness is actually much more than just the goddess of the hunt.

I think that's why the greeks when they arrived they associated their version of artemis to let's say the practice of the mistress of animals in ephesus i think they did that because for them it was just oh animals hunt but actually it's much more complicated than that because the mistress of animals the mistress of the wilderness is is a powerful mother figure through Kybele, where she embodies almost like a Gaia figure, you know, a universal, a large, natural mothering figure. And I think the Greeks underestimated that a little bit. And out of this combination, including both the pre-Greek worship of Kybele, for example, and then once they arrived and labeled her as Artemis, came this very massive divinity. And so it was a combination of, I guess, both archaic and modern. But she becomes sort of the savior, satyera, which is a term for, you know, the savior of the world, savior of the Ephesians. So that has these much more intense implications than, you know,

some young maiden hunting in the woods. And a lot of that has to do with her Kybele ancestry. And the fact that the early Ephesians, those settlers that settled in this area first, were already very familiar and engaged in the worship of Kybele and this sort of mistress of animals, and saw the mistress of animals not just as a hunter, but as a natural mothering figure, you know, this larger than, almost like the universe figure. I mean, it is incredible. It definitely does sound like this fusion, as it were, doesn't it? With the arrival, with what was there before. And I've got to ask about the bee imagery, because how does bee imagery relate to all of this? So two things that you've said are amazing. Number one is the

word fusion, because that's the word that I used in my PhD thesis. And I like that word because a lot of scholars use the word transformation or transference. And I think that is not exactly the same thing because transformation and transference implies that one is inspired by the other or one has somehow changed into something else. But fusion is a better word because there is almost like a combination, right, that embodies all of the characteristics. And so almost like nothing is lost, more is gained. And so that really, fusion is a perfect word for that, you know, because you have these, let's say, two separate things that become one massive, bigger thing, greater thing. And that's an amazing, I think, terminology for Artemis of Ephesus, because that's what she is. She is this larger than life divinity in the sense that she's much more important in Ephesus than she

would be in Greek. So she's not just a Greek Artemis. And she's much more powerful. And I don't know if the word modern is right, because sometimes I say modern and people go, oh, modern, what I mean is like post-archaic Kybele, right? So she becomes this combination of these two great things. So that leads us to her cult statue, right? Because her cult statue is quite unique. So it's one of my favorite things and one of my favorite debates. Actually, I just saw this morning that National Geographic is doing a promotion with Angelina Jolie and bees. So where Angelina Jolie is standing there, she's covered in bees. And I thought I thought oh my god how timely

we're having this interview today and we're talking about bees and bees are still so so relevant but also associated with like she's covered in bees in a way that really reminds me of almost like an Artemis covered in beehives but bees have been so significant for so long so if you look at the cult statue of the goddess Artemis, you will see that she has a very unique depiction. So it's full body, she's standing with her hands out usually, and she has the turret on her head, which is a monarchical symbol, so it often associates her with this concept of queen. And then she's wearing animals all over her body. But I would say that the most significant aspect of her cult statue, of course, is this vest. How do I say it?

You go for it. Honestly, Carla, you just go for it. It's no shame. Absolutely go for it. Almost like this vest of breasts. Yeah. So scholars often refer to it as a polymastrous or multi-breasted vest. So this is a great debate because I don't know if it's just that early scholars saw these sort of bulbous things on her body and automatically thought, oh boobs. There is a great, great debate still going on. Some of my very close colleagues and I still argue about what does it represent. Now, if you look at the original or the earliest statues that we have, because we only have about three that we found, you can see the so-called multi-breasted coat, but there are no nipples on these so-called breasts. So it's a very problematic, I think,

interpretation because there's numerous statues with goddesses that have breasts, you know, just naked breasts, and you could very clearly see them as naked breasts. So what I'm saying is I don't think the Ephesians were shy to have depicted that if that was the case. And it just, these protrusions are just bulbous protrusions. So from the beginning, I thought to myself, well, these are very interesting breasts. I mean, I've never seen anything like that. So there have been a couple other explanations. Some of them were, oh, they must be acorns, which is weird because again, they don't look like acorns at all. They're just literally these

perfect little egg-like balls. So therefore, a lot of people thought, oh, maybe these are eggs. egg-like balls. So therefore, a lot of people thought, oh, maybe these are eggs. Okay. I mean, there's really no association between artesmiss and eggs. So that's a weird thing. But you know, maybe people were arguing, maybe it's a fertility issue. Okay. The other thing that's really, really popular is that these are the testicles of bulls. So to be honest with you, Tristan, today, I think the greatest debate on this vest is whether or not these are bulls, beehives or breasts. And I lean towards beehives. Now, I'll tell you why, because it's kind of fun, why people think that they're the scrotum of bulls, which is kind of a weird thing to wrap a goddess in the scrotum of bulls. But yeah, please do. Please do.

So the reason why some scholars believe that they were the scrotum of bulls was because of this festival. There was at least one ritual for the goddess Artemis in Ephesus that involved a bloody sacrifice of bulls. And part of the sacrifice was that the bull testicles would be cut off and they would be adorned on the cult statue. So if you can only imagine this cult statue of Artemis, okay, the sort of regal cult statue of Artemis with this vest of circular things, totally covered in bloody bull testicles. I mean, this is quite an image, right? And it's quite a memorable image. And at least once a year, this type of animal sacrifice happened. And apparently, according to scholars, it continued well into the second century of the

modern period. And the idea was that these bulls were offered to the goddess, almost as though she required this sort of bloody sacrifice every year. So this tradition gained some momentum and the idea gained some momentum because Artemis in Greece, Artemis Terrapolos, is also associated with bull sacrifices. So there is a tradition also in Greece that bull sacrifices are made for the goddess Artemis. So it really gained popularity, right? And I could see why, probably you could see why as well. So that's one of the reasons. It's a small, this bull ritual, I would argue, is not as fundamental to her worship as I think some scholars have made it seem. So I'm not sure if that justifies every statue of the goddess of Artemis

wearing this vest of bull testicles. I'm not sure. But, you know, we can allow for that argument to be made. And so I can accept that a little bit. I can accept that actually more than breasts because at least the vest with these bulbous things on it looks like some testicles. But yeah, I am not convinced that she is wearing this vest of bull scrotum. So my argument and the

argument that I lean towards is, of course, beehives. It makes the most sense. And I'll tell you why. There's a couple of reasons why. First of all, the concept of the history of the bees with the association original architect and that Artemis had said, wherever you see the sort of settlement of bees, that's where you will make my temple. So that's a very interesting connection, a very, what do you call it? Primary connection, if you will. And so automatically we have this connection. Oh, Artemis and bees. Okay, fine. And then we have the Amazons, of course, arriving and also establishing this space where the bees had settled as the original place for the Temple of Artemis. And so both the Amazons and the early architect were guided by bees to establish the temple. Now, bees are a symbol of prophecy and parthenogenesis, which is the idea that female, in this case, bees or female divinities can reproduce without the help of a male. And bees have always been a symbol of this because the ancients saw bees as virginal

mothers. The queen bee reproduces parthenogenetically. She produces males and drones spontaneously out of her own body. And it seems as though she's not reproducing with any fertilization by a male bee. So they see this idea of the queen bee or the role of the queen bee as divine, as magical, if I can use the word magic. There is also an association between bees and prophecy, right? So the ancients really used to view bees as having the power of foreknowing because they seem to be able to predict the weather, wind, rain, frost, sun. Ancient writers thought they would observe them and they actually would say, well, you know, bees would choose to stay close to their hives or leave their hives based on the

weather so they could almost predict what was coming next. They also used to observe them swarming different houses or public buildings that then they associated with some kind of an important event. So there is this very long association between bees and prophecy. And in fact, there's a type of incense that you make from fermented honey. And the prophetess at Delphi, for example, would use that as incense to help her create the prophecy to contact the divine, which is, of course, Apollo at Delphi, which, interesting, is also the brother of Artemis. Catastrophic warfare, bloody revolutions and violent ideological battles. I'm James Rogers and over on the Warfare podcast,

we're exploring the vast history of ferocious global conflict. We've got the classics. Understandably, when we see it from hindsight, the great revelation in Potsdam was really Stalin saying, yeah, tell me something I don't know. The unexpected. And it was at that moment that he just handed her all these documents that he'd discovered sewn into the cushion of the armchair. And the never ending. So arguably every state that has tested nuclear weapons has created some sort of effect to local communities.

nuclear weapons has created some sort of effect to local communities. Subscribe to Warfare from History Hit wherever you get your podcasts. Join us on the front sort of prophetic symbols. Then we have the virginal association, but at the same time being able to birth. So there is this connection of, you know, how can a virginal divinity be a mother? And we see later connections to that with Mary. And then we also have this fermented honey, which can also be made into polstices that they would, when women were giving birth, put on their bodies so that they wouldn't hemorrhage out. So there's a lot of natural therapy made from honey. And so there's all these connections that associate bees with almost like divine powers of goddesses. And so because of that, it makes sense that,

and actually on the body, on the statue of the goddessemis in ephesus there are bees on her sides right so these bees climbing up her sides so there's a prophetic connection there's a ritual connection there's an artistic connection if you look at actual cult statue so it makes sense that she would be carrying a beehives to me it makes more sense that she is the queen bee because she's both virginal and mother, because she heals. If we look at the later connection with the Greek Artemis, she is the goddess of childbirth and protecting women in childbirth. There's a lot of connections, I think more so with bees than, for example, bull testicles. So my argument has always been that the wrapping around her body is actually a bee garment.

And there is a great deal of research that does connect her worship to bees. And actually, some of her representation on coins, for example, they're called bee stag coins. In Ephesus, around 300 BCE, they're called bee stag coins. In Ephesus, around 300 BCE, they had these bee stag coins. On one side, there was a stag, and on the other side was a bee. And this was associated with, of course, the Ephesian Artemis. So there is a lot of connection between her and bee imagery. So I think it makes more sense. I'm not opposed to bull testicles. And I actually really like the idea of the sort of bloodiness of that ritual. It's quite fascinating. But I'm just not sure that it's that significant that they would wrap her in that item. Carla, you have put your argument forwards very strongly there in this bizarre, incredible debate over whether it's showing beehives or breasts which don't look like breasts or bulbuls.

So it's an incredible debate. I'm just imagining like a fancy dress parties where you go to it maybe as a Greek god or a Greek goddess. Well, the next time someone goes to one of those, try doing the Ephesian Artemis. That will raise a few eyebrows, I think. Moving on, because I've definitely gone a bit of a tangent there. Carla, you did mention as we were chatting that there is a statue of Artemis, the Ephesian Artemis in Ephesus. It seems very popular there, but do we also find statues?

Do we find remains of the Ephesian Artemis elsewhere in the Mediterranean? Oh, that is a very good question. There are artistic representations of the goddess Artemis in that cult statue throughout Rome. So literal, physical statues, like I said, we only have a few that we found. And they were found around Ephesus. So I'm not sure if there were actually physical statues in other cities. However, we do have paintings and reliefs. And then ironically, as we move forward through history, even after Christianity, we see her representation more and more in European art.

One of my favorite ones is found in the Garden of Tivoli, just outside of Rome. I think it dates to about 1500s. And it's a water fountain. Of course, the vest on her chest is breasts in that case. And water kind of comes out of the breasts. So it's this massive, beautiful garden. It's got numerous Greek divinities. And just in a nook, there is this goddess of Artemis.

And the irony, of course, is that this garden was owned by a Catholic bishop. So, you know, this fascination. When she is depicted this way, which she is often, she's often referred to them the goddess of nature or mother nature. So there seems to be an association. I think it's with the breasts, to be very honest with you, because this idea that the many breasted is the many nourishing. Right. So even in I've seen her in early 19th century, 18th century science books, there is like a picture of her, a famous picture of her being unveiled. And so it's the statue of the goddess Artemis, but with breasts this time, not beehives. And she's being unveiled. And the idea is the little inscription says, you know, uncovering Mother Nature. So she actually became really important or inspirational to many artists in Europe post-Christianity. So post the temple, you know, which is really

interesting. And they use her in art as a depiction. And actually one of the most recent one in the 2000s was 2016. There was a statue of Artemis slash Kybelly in New York City, and it's basically black marble. And it appeared to be a sort of a female figure, but with like 20, 30 breasts, you know, so again, there's this kind of obsession. There is an obsession with boobs, I mean, multi-breasted depictions. So yes, I would say that she appears in the imagination, trusted depictions so yes i would say that she appears in the imagination especially of the europeans and the mediterranean for centuries afterwards but as far as actually finding we found very little original statues or original pieces like i said there's maybe three or four under six i've seen three of them so far and i'm trying to figure out if there's more

well good luck on that i mean because i think the main point you really emphasize there was six. I've seen three of them so far, and I'm trying to figure out if there's more. Well, good luck on that. I mean, Vakala, I think the main point you really emphasised there was, it does seem to emphasise how widespread worship of this ancient, very recognisable goddess was. I mean, why do you think the Ephesian Artemis, why does it become of all deities? Why does it become just so, so popular? Why does it have such an appeal? I think that's also a good question. And I think the answer to that is because she embodies everything in a safe way. So for example, you know, if you think about Athena, well, you think about warrior goddess, androgynous wisdom goddess, okay, wonderful. If you think about Aphrodite, you're thinking sexuality, fertility, etc. Demeter, very mothering. I mean, I'm speaking about Greek goddesses here. So I think Artemis of Ephesus really embodies all of those aspects, perhaps sexuality, not so much, but fertility, certainly.

both mothering and nurturing, but also not like the mother. So when we think about Demeter and we think about her and Persephone, there's a very mothering relationship there. But Artemis has this unique responsibility where she could be seen as mother, as ruler, but without the domesticity of it. So she is powerful, she is mothering, she is generous, but not domestic. So I think in that way, all of her followers, male, females, and any other way you identify, can connect to her without picking a side or having some particular characteristic. So I think that really is key to sort of our imagination of the divine. When we imagine the divine, there is this sort of connection, but also a little bit of this distance. You know, there is this something universal, something more than us. And I think she really embodies that because of this fusion,

because she is able to fuse together several traditions in a very successful way, you could really see her as the only, you don't really need anyone else to worship if you worship the goddess of Artemis, right? She really affects all aspects of your life. That's so interesting that you left it on that note. The talking about religions, which only really has like worship of one particular key figure, because we're now going on to Christianity at Ephesus and Ephesus becomes this hugely important Christian site. But Carla, we know about the Ephesian Artemis too from that key source, which is the Bible. That's correct. So I think it's in 1 Timothy where there is this talk about when Paul first

arrives in Ephesus and he is trying to stand there, I think outside of the temple of Artemis and trying to, you know, talk about Jesus and all of these things, and he gets thrown out. So it's one of the first places where he really receives a very violent backlash against his teachings. And he writes about it, you know, and he writes about how difficult it is to overcome or to preach in Ephesus because the Ephesians are obsessed, are committed to their goddess. And I think that this is a very unique city with a unique goddess and a unique sense of identity. And by that, I mean that the Ephesians themselves identified themselves with the goddess in such a way that it becomes nearly impossible

to eradicate that tradition from their cultural identity, right? And even when Christianity begins to develop, Ephesus, of course, remains an important city. And it is the city in which, the Third Ecumenical Council was held in 431, where Mary was voted Theotokos. That's a huge deal because one could argue it broke the church. I mean, Cyril and Nestorius were having these arguments back and forth about whether or not Mary is Christokos or Theotokos, which is very different. So Christokos means that she bared, she carried

Christ. Theotokos means, you know, that she is the birther of gods, the mother of gods. And that has definite different interpretations, but the vote went towards Theotokos. So that's really where she becomes the mother of God. I don't think it's an accident that it happens in Ephesus, because the Ephesians argue that Mary arrived in Ephesus after Jesus is crucified, and that she ends up dying there. There's a house for Mary. You can go visit it. I visited it, I think, almost a decade ago. It's really wonderful, and you can put little prayers in the walls to Mary, and little pieces of paper, and you can light a candle. It's really beautiful. You can go and visit her house where she was said to have passed away or been assumed up to heaven. So Ephesians really, it's almost like if we have to give up Artemis,

you have to give us a goddess, you know, you have to give us something. So it's almost like they were so deeply attached to having a divine female as a representative of the city that they just kind of switched or fused, if we want to say, the worship from Artemis to Mary. They became known for the city where Mary lived. And so you can go there, of course, and visit her house. And then ironically, just down the street, you can go and visit what's left of the Temple of Artemis, which is basically one column. But so I think it's not an accident that it happened in Ephesus. I think it's purposeful that they held a meeting in Ephesus. I think Cyril of Alexandria, who called the meeting very much so, wanted to have it in a city where the citizens were already very committed to making Mary a divinity in some way, or divine being, or have

divine characteristics, if you want to say. And so I definitely think that Artemis of Ephesus fused in the beginning from Kybele with this Artemis Huntress, which became this massive sort of Artemis of Ephesus. And then over time, as she struggled with, you know, the dominance of Christianity, she bled into the worship of Mary, right? Because there's a lot of worship of Mary that deals with bees, the concept of honey, milk and honey, virginity, that virgin mother, right? The idea of parthenogeneticist almost very much in Mary. So there's a lot of that that bleeds into Christianity and to the worship of Mary. So there's a lot of that that bleeds into Christianity and to the worship of Mary.

It is so interesting that, I mean, not one, but two fusions and also those striking links, similarities between Kyberle and Artemis and then Artemis and the Virgin Mary. I know I'm basically just repeating what exactly you say, but it's just such an interesting point to emphasize, isn't it? When we're thinking of those divinities, those deities, and how they can relate to each other, but also in the wider context, how their similarity can also relate to the settlement, to the citizens themselves, to the city of Ephesus and the Ephesians. Absolutely. I think that they just, I mean, they had spent, you know, millennia associating with goddesses and they saw themselves as established by goddesses and also established, you know, by Amazons. And so they had such an entrenched belief, you know, it wasn't just, oh, here we are in the city of Ephesus and we worship Artemis. Like the celebration for her birthday, for example, her festival in May, it was like a Christmas, right? It was the biggest festival. Everyone came to the procession. Parents taught their children about how this deeply affects your cultural identity, your civic

identity. So she was very, very ingrained in just the everyday breath of the city. So you can imagine that over time, even if you say, you know, her temple was destroyed, of course, in 262, the worship continued. You know, like the Council of Ephesus happens 200 years later in 400. And even then, Cyril of Alexandria is talking about, oh, these people are still worshiping Artemis. So there are still people holding on to, even without a temple for 200 years, holding on to her worship. And then to have Mary come there, you know, it's not a coincidence. Some scholars

will argue that Mary went there because the city was so known as a sanctuary. Okay, so if that's the case, again, a sense of pride, a sense of civic identity. So here is another sacred female figure coming to be a part of our city and live the rest of her life in our city. And then of course, once Mary is gone, this idea that here is the place where we make Mary mother of God. So it's such a long and deep tradition of sort of female divinity, but it's not just like a female, like sometimes I'm not a fan of that terminology because whenever we say female divinity, we always associate it with fertility, where I think in this case, yeah, okay, fertility is great. But it's also a kind of power, there's power here, there's political power here, there's economical power here. So in this case, it's much more grandiose, I think, than just a female divinity, you know, and maybe that's what

scholars have done for so long is that they've sort of associated her with a female divinity, and that I find that we lose a lot of her actual cultural significance and her influence. And I guess that's been my battle since I wrote that PhD to raise awareness about how significant she was and how fascinating she was. And there are people today, I have friends today who are planning to build centers to sort of reignite the worship of Artemis of Ephesus. So I have a colleague who has bought a piece of land and he's very, very much personally attached to Artemis of Ephesus, you know, not a scholar. And he's saying, you know, Carla, I would like to eventually have people maybe come out and maybe we can like revive maybe some of the prayers to her, some of the worship to her. And I'm fascinated by that. I'm

like, I would love to see how this works out. Imagine in 50 years, people are worshipping her again in Ephesus. Like, what an incredible journey. Carla, this has been absolutely fascinating. Such an incredible chat. Keep fighting your battle. You see the passion oozing on this topic. It's been so eye-opening. Thank you so much for taking the time out to come on the podcast it has been a real pleasure thank you so much for having me and letting me speak about her anytime that you want to do a podcast where we can talk about all the different aspects of her these boobs and ball testicles it's all it's all right there thanks so much you're very welcome, Tristan. Thank you. We'll see you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are.

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