The Ancients - Chandragupta Maurya: Hero of India

Episode Date: July 9, 2023

Evolving from an obscure ancient ruler to a contemporary national icon, Chandragupta Maurya's story is finally being told. However, despite tales of leading empires and defeating the successors of Alexander the Great, there is no official record of his events- only moments taken from Greek authors here and there remain. So, how can we decipher fact from fiction, and how have recent reappraisals helped shape Chandragupta's story, and more importantly - a national Indian identity?In this episode, Tristan welcomes Dr Sushma Jansari, author of 'Chandragupta Maurya,' to the podcast to delve into the art, sources, and stories surrounding Chandragupta's life. Together they examine the role Greek diplomats played in crossing the Indus, the creation of a mighty empire, and his fall into obscurity followed by a subsequent return to fame in the 20th century. So who is Chandragupta, and how has he helped define Indian identity in the 21st century?Discover the past on History Hit with ad-free original podcasts and documentaries released weekly presented by world renowned historians like Dan Snow, Suzannah Lipscomb, Lucy Worsley, Matt Lewis, Tristan Hughes and more. Get 50% off your first 3 months with code ANCIENTS. Download the app on your smart TV or in the app store or sign up here.You can take part in our listener survey here.For more Ancient's content, subscribe to our Ancient's newsletter here.

Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and in today's episode we're talking about an ancient Indian ruler who lived in the late 4th century BC. His name is Chandragupta Maurya, the founder of the massive Mauryan Empire that dominated large swathes of the Indian subcontinent. Now, the historic Chandragupta we have limited evidence surviving about from both Greco-Roman literature and from Indian texts too.

However, there are some really interesting stories, particularly one that will be at the crux of our interview today, when one of the successors of Alexander the Great ventured east with an army to the Indus River Valley and battled against Chandragupta and his Indian army. The details of that clash are limited but we do know that there was an important peace treaty that was agreed following the campaign. Now to explain all about this, about the historic Chandragupta and then how he has evolved into becoming this national hero figure in India today,, I was delighted to interview a few weeks back Dr. Sushma Jansari from the British Museum. Sushma, she is a curator, she's a brilliant speaker,

and she has just written a book all about Chandragupta's life and legacy. This was eye-opening, and I really do hope you enjoy. So here's Sushma. Sushma, it is wonderful to have you on the podcast today. This is so exciting. Thank you so much for inviting me. You are more than welcome. We're doing it in person, in a studio in London, in Hoxton. It's very exciting, very trendy. Very trendy and very, very purple. Very purple indeed, I know, I know.

But, of course, they probably didn't expect that the topic we're covering today is something quite different. Chandragupta Morya. This man has gone from obscure ruler to a national hero in India. He really has. It's absolutely fascinating because, as we will talk about shortly, the evidence for this ruler is really limited, really complicated. And yet, despite that, or maybe because of that, he's been transformed over the centuries into a national icon, to the point where the first ever sculpture to be installed in the Indian Parliament was of him.

So it's really quite an incredible journey for him, not only to become king, but then to be this national hero. And is he therefore a really interesting figure through which you can explore the reception of ancient history in India? Absolutely, yes. And perhaps unsurprisingly, it takes you right through the colonial period from, you know, the James Mills and the East India Company, all the way through to the British Raj and independence and the post-independence period, you can absolutely trace the trends and, you know, the India versus Great Britain fight for independence, all through the story of this one king. It's really interesting. I really want to delve into that legacy of this figure. But of course, we are the ancients. So let's talk about the ancient history itself and the world of Chandra

Gupta Morya first of all. So let's set the scene with the background. So 4th century BC India, just before the rise of this figure, what does India look like at this time? So I suppose a lot of people familiar with contemporary India didn't really exist as one political entity. There were lots of rulers, some minor, some major, and up in the Ganga Valley, the Ganges Valley, the incredible valley around the river Ganges that flows through northern India, there was an enormous empire called the Nanda Empire. The heartlands were in Magadha, empire called the Nanda Empire. The heartlands were in Magadha, which is there in the Ganga Valley. And he was one of the most powerful rulers in the region. And this was the empire that Chandragupta not only went on to overthrow, but he, his son Bindusara, his grandson, the very

famous Ashoka, they expanded this empire into one of the biggest that South Asia, India, had ever seen. And the epicentre of this great empire, am I mistaken, am I correcting that, it's Pataliputra? Absolutely. If you look at a contemporary map of India, you'll see the modern city of Bhatna. And once Sir William Jones in the 18th century, who was a judge working in India, realised that Pataliputra of the Sanskrit sources and Patna of contemporary India were one and the same. And in fact, Patna is built right on top of Pataliputra, which is why it's so hard to excavate. For one of the massive great cities of antiquity, isn't it? Well, so therefore, 4th century BC India, you have the Nanda, and then we've got

the rise of Chandragupta Maurya. Now've got the rise of Chandragupta Moria. Now, to explore the story of Chandragupta himself, what types of sources do we have available for him? We have lots of little bits of sources, and I think it's quite useful to divide them into two main groups. So you've got the Greco-Roman sources on the one hand, and then you have a whole range of South Asian sources. Now I imagine the audience is probably more familiar with the Greco-Roman material but just to give a little bit of background on the South Asian texts, most of these are religious in nature. They are Buddhist, they are Jain and they are Brahmanic and there's a whole range of different ones from different parts of

South Asia from Sri Lanka all the way you know up to northern India. So there's quite a range of different ones from different parts of South Asia, from Sri Lanka all the way, you know, up to northern India. So there's quite a range of material, but it's important to remember that they are religious and that obviously colours what they say about different people. But even though having said that, I think it's fair to say that with many of the Greco-Roman sources that the credibility of a lot of their information you have to take with not just a pinch of salt, but a bucket load of salt. So it feels like when trying to explore the actual figure of Chandragupta and Moria, whether you're looking at the South Asian sources, these religious texts, or the Greco-Roman sources, it's almost like you really need to look at all these bits

of information and try to figure out what's the fact and what's been added a bit later. What is the fiction? there is so much of that you know when you think about jan de grupta right now whether you read a wiki article or something it seems as if there's quite a lot of information this is a really kind of filled out figure and you know entire stories and novels and films have been made about him but when you get to it there's virtually nothing honestly he's such an elusive person. And the events in his life are also extremely elusive. And it's only, you know, a couple of moments, for example, when he meets Seleucus on the banks of the Indus, or some fragments from Megasthenes Indica, that you start to piece together just little,

little bits from his life. Well, some big fascinating names you just mentioned there. You mentioned Seleucus first. We're going to get to him and Alexander the Great and his successors. Of course we are. It's me. Of course we're going to do that. However, you also mentioned Megasthenes, and I know you've got a soft spot for this figure. So let's focus on this particular source, because who was Megasthenes? Megasthenes, you know, I even have a random picture of him on a mug at home. I'm a big fan of Megasthenes. So he was, as far as we know, the first Greek ambassador to cross the Indus and travel all the way to Chandragupta's capital, Pataliputra. and fragments of his work, the Indica, remain to us. And they're all found in the works of later authors that we will, I'm sure, discuss as well, like Strabo and others. But he himself is also quite tantalising because later historians were fascinated by his work rather than him. They mined his books for information about India because it simply

hadn't existed to them before that time. I mean, if you look through Herodotus or Ctesias, there are some really interesting, I'm not going to use the word facts, but there's some useful tidbits of information, which is not entirely accurate about India. And Megasthenes was the first person to really fill it out and share with a Greek audience actual information about the Maurean world at the time. And in terms of a text, this is the most important text about Mauryan India that we have. And it's not South Asian, it's Greek. And but for that very reason, as you highlighted there, it's not a later text. This is a figure who maybe we don't know much about the person Magasthes himself, but he

says who ventures to India for one reason or another. And therefore he sees Chandragupta's world and the rising Mauryan empire that Chandragupta encapsulates. Absolutely. And I think what's really fascinating are a whole range of aspects. He talks about, for example, Chandragupta and his female guards. I mean, goodness me, that all of a sudden your jaw drops because you never quite envision it like that. And he talks about the spies and the networks. And on the other hand, he talks about these great swathes of subcontinent. But what's really interesting is that it doesn't sound like a region that's been ravaged by war. And yet we know that there was some kind of altercation with Nanda because Arjun got to overthrow this empire. We know that there was some kind of altercation with Nanda because Arjuna got to overthrow this empire.

We know that there was an altercation with Seleucus on the banks of the Indus because Appian tells us that. So it's quite interesting that this is quite a peaceful land. He talks actually about the division of Indian society into different groups. Right now we'd probably call them castes, but it wasn't as well established as it became later on in India's history. And then you have, I suppose, a nice way of describing it is as spheres of regions that Megasthenes visited himself, and the information is clearly a little more accurate. And then he talks about some really

strange peoples as they do. Greek ethnographers really like this. So there were the Astemoi, who apparently lived by the mouth of the river Gunga, the Ganges. And these were people with no mouths. They inhale their food through smoke and scents. And clearly he had not visited this place. So it's really interesting. And yet he also tells us inadvertently about Mauryan contacts with places like Sri Lanka, because some of the information he tells us about this island is quite accurate,

you know, things about the river running through it, things like that. So it's a really intriguing work, just as he's a really intriguing person. And just to reiterate, so Megasthenes' Indica, as a book itself, is lost. But you've been able to piece together these various, well, I guess a potential framework for his Indica because of, as you mentioned, those fragments. And by fragments, we might immediately think of small bits of parchment or something like that, but actually just references to Megasthenes and his indica in other histories, I guess. Absolutely that. And when you cross-reference them, so if one, say Diodorus mentions Megasthenes in relation to a whole bunch of information about, say, elephants, and then you see, you you know this particular information about elephants found in the work of say Strabo

bingo you know you can link them together hey presto we know that all that's most likely from Megasthenes and so it's a case of cross-referencing and finding these bits of information occasionally finding his name and certain bits of information about India that are unlikely to have come from anywhere else although of course there were later ambassadors, Dhamakas and others who went to the Mauryan court, but their works have virtually just gone. It's only Magasini's that really remains to us. So these are the sources that we have available. We talk about Magasini's quite a lot, but come on, let's move on to Chandragupta. I mean, in regards to the story of Chandragupta, do we know much, if anything, about his background?

Yes and no. I mean, as I mentioned, there are these stories, and I'll give you two examples, and we have absolutely no corroborating information about virtually any of this. So these are just stories. But we have, for example, a 12th century Jain source written by Himachandra, a monk in a court in Western India, Kamar Pala's court in the Chalukya Empire. And he tells us in this work called The Lives of the Jain Elders that there's this king called Chandragupta who was highly regarded by somebody called Janakya. And Janakya went on to become his prime minister, his advisor, really important figure in his life.

And Janakya saw something really regal and interesting in this young boy and decided, I'm going to make him king. Now, wouldn't we all like that? And there's another story that's a very similar one found in Sri Lanka, but the similarity comes with the Chanakya-Jandragupta connection and also the other story that's connected with them as well. So in both stories, there is a mother who is berating her children for eating food straight from the middle of a dish where it's really hot and burning their fingers. And she says, you know, it's a really silly thing to do. You should be eating the food from the outside. And in fact, if Jandragupta had actually attacked the Nanda

Empire from the edges, he would have had greater success against him than if he went straight to the heartlands, which is what he does. And Chandragupta and Chinnukya overhear this story, think, oh my goodness, that's a really good idea. And apparently that's what they go on to do. They defeat all the outlying regions and then go into the Nanda heartland and overthrow the Nanda empire. And the two sources, I mean, the Hemachandra source, 12th century Western India, the Sri Lankan source is something called the Mahavamsa Tikka. And the Mahavamsa means great chronicle, Maha, great, Vamsa, chronicle. And this was written by monks in the great stupor at Anuradhapur in Sri Lanka.

And it was essentially a Buddhist history of Sri Lanka, of the island itself. And the tika is a commentary on some of the tricky words people didn't quite understand. Except that wasn't written down until about the same time as Hemajandra was writing, around the 12th century. And we don't know if any of these stories are drawing on much more ancient text or if it was being invented at the time. We simply don't know if any of these stories are drawing on much more ancient text or if it's being invented at the time we simply don't know it's so interesting isn't it because it almost as this figure grows chandra gupta his legacy grows that there's this desire to add more and more to background i guess to the figure and and to his rise and i guess there's also in plutarch isn't there the story of potentially him meeting with alexander the greatest alexander the greatest in northwest india so you get all of these stories trying to link chandragupta to certain people at

certain places of india before his actual rise to the kingship well this is what's so tricky i mean let's be honest plutarch is quite a big fan of alexander i mean yes and so to link anyone with alexander is pretty big deal but i'm not convinced that Dundragupta met or saw Alexander. It just seems a bit too good to be true. But you're right. It's intriguing how different people, different historians, take little bits of this story and say, oh, he was king, except we don't really know when he became king. We have absolutely no idea. We have these traditional dates ascribed to him around 320 or 319.

There is absolutely no evidence for this at all. All we know from Justin, his epitome of Pompeius Trogus, is that he was king at the time that Seleucus was laying the foundation of his own greatness, i.e. when he was defending his satrapy of Babylonia against Antigonus, and around, what, 311, 308? Whether General Gupta had already overthrown the Nanda Empire, we have absolutely no idea. We simply don't know.

And do we have any further details, therefore? Do we not know any more particular details as to how Chandragupta went about overthrowing the Nanda? Apart from that story about the lady and her child, and then the inspiration she provided to him and his advisor, no, I'm afraid not it's so shrouded in mystery isn't it but we have these events that we hear from the sources and therefore we we hear chandragupta at one point then we hear him at another point and he's in

command of this massive empire so let's focus on this event which i know is so key in your book and which is such an interesting event of almost chandragupta meeting a successor of Alexander the Great, Seleucus. What is this particular event with Chandragupta on one side and this great successor of Alexander the Great, Seleucus, on the other? So intriguingly, apparently, they met on the banks of the Indus. And according to Appian again, Seleucus crossed the Indus and waged war with Chandragupta. And this was after he'd already defeated Antigonus and had come all the way east. I mean, this is a journey of, what, thousands of miles. And they had some kind of altercation, war, who knows?

We have absolutely no idea, let's be honest. And the only thing we appear to know are three parts of a peace treaty that they appear to have agreed with each other. Chandragupta gave, we are told, 500 elephants, that's a lot of elephants, to Seleucus. And Seleucus transferred some lands, and I say some lands, I mean apparently huge tracts of lands, to Chandragupta. And there was some kind of marriage alliance. Except we don't really know what that marriage alliance entailed. Was it like some kind of inter-regional kind of marriage alliance? Is it a personal familial one? Later historians and later authors and filmmakers have

totally run with the idea that Seleucus's daughter married Chandragupta. And in fact, the whole of the Mauryan dynasty is actually Macedonian-Indian. And I just don't know about that. And so are those the only parts of the treaty? We don't really know the outcome of the clashes of the battles that they have. And those are the only parts of the treaty that follows, this great treaty that survived, which is to say, elephants, some sort of marriage alliance, potentially with some Magasthenes, maybe he's involved in that that as well if he ends up at chandragupta's court i mean who knows i mean what one thing that we do seem to know is that this the relationship between the two families seem to last for about three generations

we hear from i think it was hegasanda about an exchange of figs and sophists for wine and things, you know, with Bindusara, who was the son of Jandragupta. And then in an Ashokan rock inscription, I mean, these are the first monumental inscriptions of South Asia. And in those, Jandragupta's grandson Ashoka notes that he sent embassies to five Greek rulers, including one of Seleucus' successors. So, you know, apparently they were amicable relationships, they went on, but any details we simply don't know. They're just so elusive. They're very tantalising, but we simply don't know. Very elusive, but it also affirms that point we highlighted at the start, how the actual story of Chandragupta, there is so much that we don't

know. So it's fascinating as we now get nearer the story of his legacy and his evolution over the years one last thing on chandra gupta the ancient figure so they've had this confrontation so lucas he's now gone back west to fight he mentioned also antigonus that other successor in a massive battle at ipsus he's gone from india for good and the generals in india the indus valley they've gone for good chandra gupta do we know much of what happens to him afterwards of his rule or what ultimately happens to the figure? Honestly, no, not really. After Megasthenes leaves and he's written his Indica, we don't know very much at all. I mean, there is a tiny bit of information. There is an inscription in Junagadh, which is in Gujarat, and it's an inscription about the creation of a water reservoir right so

apparently it was built during Chandragupta's reign I mean that's great everyone likes a water reservoir it doesn't tell us much about Chandragupta except that he appeared to have regional governors okay but somehow his authority appears to have spread quite far west because Gujarat is very far from Pataliputra and the Mauryan heartlands. And apart from that, the only information we really have comes from Buddhist sources, really, and it's mostly concentrated on Ashoka. But the intriguing story that comes down to us from Jain sources is that Chandragupta, towards the end of his life, the end of his rule, relinquished his power in favour of his son, Bindusara, and converted to Jainism. And in fact, when there was a famine, apparently, in North India, he traveled down

south to Shravana Belgola, which is Karnataka, and he went alongside a monk called Badrabahu, who was his mentor, apparently the person who converted him to Jainism. And there, at the very important site of Shravana Belgola, which is incredibly sacred to Jains, apparently Chandragupta built a temple, Chandragupta Basadi, which means Chandragupta Temple, and in a place called Badrabahu, a cave, that's where he performed the Salakana, which is basically Jain ritual starvation until death.

But once again, we are stuck with lack of evidence because the inscriptions we have are very late, about the 6th century there. And the one about the migration of Bhadrabahu, there is no reference to Chandragupta. So either that part of the story has been forgotten or hadn't been invented yet. We simply don't know. And there are other inscriptions dating, you know, up to the 15th century in that area. But we don't know if the Chandraguptas and the Badrabahus that they refer to are ours, the figures we think they are. We simply don't know, because they're quite common names. There are other people called Badrabahu and Chandragupta. We just don't know about these two. So it's all very elusive. On Gone Medieval from History Hit,

we set out to solve the biggest mysteries of the medieval age. So many of these travellers who went out looking for Presta John, what did they think they were hearing? Using science to identify our buried ancestors. Genetic signatures found in present-day Ashkenazi Jewish populations were shared by the genetic ancestries we found in these individuals. And reveal the answers to centuries-old riddles. I stand up straight in a bed, I'm hairy at my base and I make the ladies cry. The solution is an onion.

I'm Matt Lewis and every Tuesday and Friday you can join me to travel the medieval world in search of the stories you haven't heard and to get under the skins of the ones you have. Gone Medieval from History Hit, twice a week, every week. Listen and follow on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's now focus on the legacy of this figure, particularly of the past few centuries. And I know there's quite a focus, therefore, isn't there, on that clash that we highlighted earlier between Sir Lucas, successor of Alexander Macedonian, and Chandragupta, founder of this great Mauryan Indian empire. Absolutely. And I think it's fair to say that if we actually knew the outcome of that battle, I'm not sure he would have necessarily been transformed into this great Indian hero. But because we have absolutely no idea what happened, historians have interpreted the outcome in two very different ways. Generally speaking, you know, from the 18th and 19th

centuries, British scholars have essentially argued that, in fact, it was Seleucus who gave Jandagup to a great walloping, as was his right as a European. And remember, we are talking about the time where the East India Company is very much in India. British Raj is about to be established as well. And the relationship between the two countries is changing and very unequal. When you go a little further along that relationship, you get to the early 20th century, the very end of the 19th century. Indians have reinterpreted that relationship. And for them, Janda Gupta stood in for India and Silukas stood in for Great Britain. And for them, Janda Gupta was the great hero who repulsed the Europeans at the Indus. And he was a real inspiration to people fighting for freedom.

And at a time when you couldn't overtly criticize the colonial powers, and you couldn't overtly argue for independence in public through plays, because they would be banned. Same with films, they would be banned. independence in public through plays because they would be banned same with films they would be banned it was a useful way to have ancient history stand in for the current state of play and that's exactly how it was used in really famous plays by say rey's a play chandra gupta which dates to like 1911 and a whole series of movies during the time just before independence as well, where you have this incredible ancient story, like in the film Mathrubhumi in South India, except it's also a vehicle for nationalist

songs. And in fact, for that reason, it was temporarily banned until the local mayor got involved and had it, you know, released again. So it's fascinating that there was this massive rise in the use of Chandragupta versus Salukas, up to and just after independence, but afterwards, it gradually fell. Until more recently, I'm thinking between about 2016 until more recently, when all of a sudden there was a whole load of TV series and historical novels. Well, let's explore that world just before independence. Let's say the first half of the 20th century, therefore, as this idea of Seleucus as the victor, that really starts to change. Now, that's really there with the British Raj and

these figures early on. You mentioned Mill early on, it's very difficult to read accounts of it. But you do mention in your book, these second generation Indian historians, who really start changing that narrative in the early 20th century. Now, who exactly are these Indian historians? Well, interestingly, the first ones to really change it are someone called Vincent Smith. He's not very Indian. He's often referred to as this arch-Orientalist historian. He was a colonial official based in India and wrote histories about India. But he was the first one to really shift that

victory from Salukas to Chandragupta. And R.C. Dutt, who was very much an Indian historian, very famous one, and in fact he taught at UCL. And for him, he's the one who linked Chandragupta's fight with Salukas with this idea of India's fight for freedom. And from that point on, this idea of India's fight for freedom. And from that point on, other Indian historians, the next generation, Mukherjee, Majumdar, they completely reshaped this narrative. And when you read it, it's very much, Chandragupta gave this European a great walloping, and he absolutely defeated him. And in fact, you know, he came out the victor seleucus was sent packing and that story that's the one that's really won out in india it's therefore gone hasn't it from radical on one extreme with seleucus as the victor to radical on the other extreme with chandra gripta as the

great victor and this isn't just a pyrrhic victor anything like that this is a crushing victory over seleucus there is no middle ground in the story which is fascinating in its own right absolutely but then there's also no middle ground in independence or lack thereof so it very accurately reflects the balance of power and the direction that people are fighting in you know what they actually really deeply believe in and one key figure i'd love to highlight about this because i know you mentioned him quite a bit is nehru because he embraces this figure of chandragupta as this Indian hero, doesn't he? He really does. And I think it's really important to say, and this comes out in loads of your podcasts, ancient history is not always confined to the history books.

It can have a really powerful impact on society. And that's exactly what happened with Chandragupta. For Nehru, I mean, he wrote letters to his daughter Indira Gandhi. Well, later became Indira Gandhi. She was a nine-year-old girl at the time. And he explained how Chandragupta was this great Indian ruler who defeated the European Salukas. about the history of India, the same thing. And what's intriguing there is not only this incredible Chandragupta, this incredible king, but also Janakya's role as his advisor. And there, I mean, reading it now, what, 70 odd years later, it's very reminiscent of Gandhi's relationship with Nehru as well. And I wonder, is that what he was thinking when he was writing it? Or is that something that we are now reading into it? I not I'm not I'm not quite sure about that I like to think that he was aware of what he was saying and for him it was such an important thing because he was writing I mean

the history book he wrote when he was in prison for his involvement in the quit India movement and so for him independence hadn't yet been achieved. They were fighting so hard for it. And to have these inspirational ancient figures to look up to was really important. It kept them going. And later, it's no surprise when you think about the kinds of symbols that were adopted by the Indian Republic, they're all Mauryan. You've got Ashoka's chakra, which is at the middle of the Indian flag. You've got his four-line capital, which is the national symbol, which is at the middle of the indian flag you've got his four-line capital which is the national symbol which is found on everything from passports to stamps and money and everything else in between they're all mauryan right so it is not just chandra gupta that is embraced because of

that particular event that we talked about with salukas it is that whole idea of the mauryan empire of all empires that is really embraced I did not realise how encompassing that was, especially, of course, I said, with a figure like Ashoka too, who is so big as the grandson of Chandragupta. We think that he ruled over the empire at its greatest extent. I mean, it was expanded and expanded and expanded. And we know more about him simply because he left us inscriptions dotted around his empire. And there are so many stories in the Buddhist sources. But yes, I mean, during this period, the Moorians, this great ancient dynasty of India, was absolutely something that people looked up to. And I guess if we go back to what you said right at the beginning, the statue of Chandragupta,

the first one to be placed in the Indian Parliament. That is such a significant act in itself. It absolutely is, especially when you think that the first portrait, the first painting installed in the Indian Parliament was of Mahatma Gandhi. Well, you did mention how following independence, the story of Chandragupta, although he's still important, decline is the wrong word, but he goes back into the shadows for a bit until more recently, where his story has now come very much back into the limelight. In what sorts of ways has his story revived in more recent history? More recently, I wouldn't necessarily say just in history, because the Moorians are very important in Indian history and have been for a very long

time now. But I think in terms of popular culture, he's become a bit more popular again in recent times. And there's a greater interest into the ancient past of India when it comes to popular culture. There are more historical novels and comics and television series being made. But what's really interesting is that that fight between Salukhas and Chandragupta, it's really not so prominent anymore. The bits of his life and story that are of real interest to people and filmmakers now is actually his life in India. Because, you can see it right now, India's already achieved independence. And so that fight, it's not so important and such a titanic thing

for people now as it was about 70 odd years ago and you mentioned that's in tv is that now or um so are there what sorts of media forms is this message is this focus on chandragupta in india relayed nowadays yeah absolutely on television novels comics and even computer games board games things like that it's a whole range of stuff by the chandra gupta action figure it's all there and we've also got i know we've got a copy of your book right in front of us and it has right on the front cover it this great stamp this beautiful stamp 400 chandra gupta maurya india yes do you know it's really extraordinary i was fortunate enough to be in

touch with the designer of this stamp sankarankar Samanta. And he was tasked with creating a stamp showing Chandragupta. And this is modern, this is only like 10, 15 years ago. And obviously he had nothing really to draw on because we have no images of Chandragupta. And as a curator, I work with objects. We don't have objects connected with this man. And so he developed this wonderful image surrounded by symbols from punchmark coins, which may or may not be Mauryan, seated on an incredible lion throne and holding all of his weapons with him as well, and a halo around his head. And I think for me, that really embodies the position that Chandragupta has achieved in contemporary India. He is someone who is really quite extraordinary

and someone so important that he now has his halo because he is a national hero. He is a national hero. And I guess when it does come to art, if I'm presuming, therefore, we don't have any depictions of him from ancient history surviving, it allows people in India or wherever, almost free roam to create a depiction of the Chandragupta which they want nowadays and for whatever purpose absolutely and you go to some for example Birla Mandir's and there's the key Lakshmi Narayan temple in Delhi and there you will find murals of his wedding day to this Greek princess. And it's absolutely fascinating. And they're both raised up on the dais and being transported and tucked away in the corner. There are two soldiers

dressed in Roman military uniform and slightly anachronistic right there. But there they are. So yes, there's even a sculpture of Chandragupta in that Bir Limandir in the gardens there. So he's absolutely been reinterpreted different people play him different people write about him and his character changes as well as time goes by well you mentioned that greek princess right there and we highlighted it earlier didn't we potentially that marriage alliance with Seleucus do we ever see any depictions of that princess at all in Chandragupta's story nowadays if we talk if it's the focus is now very much on chandra gupta in india and i guess the second part is that do we therefore see magasinis portrayed too as an ambassador if he's also residing alongside chandra gupta

in the mauryan empire yes and no so with the salukis's daughter she does appear in some books and in some television shows. But what's really interesting is that she's invariably portrayed as a really unpleasant character. And in one television show, she and her children with Chandragupta are banished, and he returns to his Indian wife. And I think that speaks volumes about the perception of foreigners in an Indian family in particular. And actually, when you read reviews about the show or any of the books, it's not even mentioned. It's accepted as a completely normal reaction to having a foreigner in your midst, especially in your family. Personally, I found that really quite troubling.

And in terms of Magasthanis, he doesn't tend to appear. and in terms of magasthenes he doesn't tend to appear but ack amachitra gata is really famous kids comic in india he has his own comic dedicated to him wow of all the formats i was not expecting that magasthenes it was it'd be in comic form that he has not just a mention of him a whole comic dedicated to this ambassador absolutely i have a copy at home i mean i saw it and i had to get it so this has been absolutely fascinating to explore a figure that the actual figure we don't know too much about from the surviving sources but he's a fascinating microcosm example isn't he of how certain figures from the distant past shrouded in mystery can be embraced by a country for a particular purpose in more recent history?

Absolutely. And that is true of so many ancient figures. And I think, you know, I always used to assume that people became heroes almost by chance. And I think I've shown through Chandragupta that that's absolutely not the case. Heroes can be made. Heroes can be made indeed. Well, Sushma, last but certainly not least, we've got the book in front of you. The book is called? The book is called Chandragupta Maurya, The Creation of a National Hero in India.

And just to say, it is open access with UCL Press. So anyone, anywhere with an internet connection can download it for free. So please do do that. And I have to say, it is such a revealing book, particularly for myself, who did not know much about this figure at all, and especially the legacy of this figure too. So it was really a great read. And it just goes to me to say, Sushma, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today. Oh, thank you so much for inviting me. I really enjoyed our conversation. Well, there you go. There was Dr. Sushma Jansari explaining the life and legacy of Chandragupta Maurya. It is so interesting how this ancient ruler has become such an important national hero symbol in India today. I do hope you enjoyed the episode as much as I did recording it.

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