The Ancients - Dead Sea Scrolls: The Copper Scroll

Episode Date: October 31, 2024

When they were discovered in the Qumran Caves in the mid-20th century, the Dead Sea Scrolls revolutionised our understanding of biblical history. But one particular scroll was different. It was not written on parchment or papyrus like the other scrolls, but on metal - 99% copper and 1% tin.In this episode of The Ancients, Tristan Hughes visits Jordan so see the this fascinating Copper Scroll in person, and then interviews Prof. Joan Taylor to unlock the mysteries contained within it - not least a map and directions to some undiscovered ancient treasure.Presented by Tristan Hughes. Edited by Aidan Lonergan. The producer is Joseph Knight, the senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff.The Ancients is a History Hit podcast.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original TV documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Sign up HERE for 50% off your first 3 months using code ‘ANCIENTS’. https://historyhit.com/subscriptionYou can take part in our listener survey here.

Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. So I'm in the Jordan Museum at Amman, and we're in this small exhibition room. It's black walls, and it's a very special place, because here they have some of the Dead Sea Scrolls, one of the most extraordinary archaeological

discoveries ever made in the Holy Land and indeed in the story of archaeology as a whole. Now what I can see straight away in front of me, they have a few different scrolls here in Jordan and looking at the detail that survives, they are fragments of parchment but the writing, this old Hebrew writing, a dialect of ancient Hebrew, well, it's incredibly well preserved, and it almost looks like it was written a few days ago. And these scrolls, a few of them, they refer to parts of the Old Testament. There's Ecclesiastes down there. There's a passage from Isaiah on that scroll too. And this is one of the great claims to fame of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

It's the oldest surviving examples we have of the Hebrew Bible, of what we call the Old Testament, more than 2,000 years old. Now, the scrolls survive because they were preserved in caves at the site of Qumran in the West Bank. They were discovered by a local Bedouin shepherd in 1947, so just after the end of World War Two, deep in a series of caves at the site of Qumran, believed to be the location of an ancient Jewish sect some 2000 years ago called the Essenes.

And many of these scrolls were preserved in what I'm looking at right now. These large storage vessels. It was within them that the scrolls were preserved in what I'm looking at right now, these large storage vessels. It was within them that the scrolls were found when they were opened up. Hundreds of fragments were discovered, these parchments, these pieces of paper, of Jewish religious literature, not just pieces of the Old Testament but also sectarian works relating to the Essenes and how they viewed life and their code of conduct. But amongst all of these fragments, amongst all of these scrolls, there was one very special one, and also a very different one, because it's not to do with Jewish religious literature from

antiquity. And it wasn't also made of parchment. It was made of copper and I'm looking at it right now. This is the copper scroll and it's sometimes called the ancient treasure map because it is very, very different to the rest. What I can see in front of me is this copper scroll divided, it's been cut up into 23 strips. Now the story behind the copper scroll is that it was discovered slightly later in the early 1950s at the back of cave three at Qumran and because it was made of copper, 99% copper, 1% tin, by the time it was discovered it had become heavily oxidized so it had compressed and almost formed a cylinder and at first those who it, they didn't know how to open it without damaging the writing,

and they wanted to preserve the writing where they opened it. So they designed a very special type of saw. And the scroll was cut up in Manchester in the later 1950s. And what it has revealed are almost instructions of where to find gold and silver. You have to imagine this scroll, at the moment what I'm looking at is 23 different strips of this scroll, but originally it was one big scroll, it was one single text. And some of the details that survive, it's written in Old Hebrew too, it refers to various locations where this treasure was buried. It's not talking about one

central location but in total it's talking about roughly 120 tons of gold and silver. That's billions in today's money and one particular example I love is in column two and it talks about how if someone was looking for this treasure they would have to go to a filled up system and then descend the stairs go to the bottom of the stairs and there they would find 42 talents of silver now a talent was an ancient weighing system for weighing the amount of gold and silver and it was particularly prevalent in the Hebrew culture. Now a talent, it was a lot and so 40 talents was a lot of gold and silver. So these are instructions of where to find parts of this great treasure. In total this adds up to some 120 tons of gold and silver.

But what do we know about the treasure itself? Well sadly barely anything because although attempts have been made to try and locate parts of this treasure from what's been said on the scroll no one has ever been able to find it. There have been various theories as to what this treasure refers to. One theory is that it's talking about the treasure that was taken from the great temple of Jerusalem before it was sacked and burned to the ground by the Romans at the end of the Jewish revolt. However, many people contest that and there is no solid proof to show that because this treasure has never been found. And there are some that even believe that actually the treasure that this scroll is referring to never actually existed and in fact that this copper scroll is a fake.

Regardless, it is an extraordinary artifact. It's unique, the only copper scroll in existence from the Dead Sea Scrolls and an ancient treasure map that talks about undiscovered riches. It all feels very Indiana Jones-y. Perhaps it will be discovered one day. Perhaps more likely, it never will. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host,

and today we're covering, yep, you guessed it, the amazing artefact that is the Copper Scroll, this ancient treasure map very different to the rest of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Now following that introduction from me, seeing the many strips that make up the Copper Scroll in the Jordan Museum today, we now have an interview with one of the leading experts on the Copper Scroll and its contents, none other than Dr. Joan Taylor from King's College London. Joan, she's been on the podcast twice before as the expert

for an episode about Mary Magdalene and then for another one about Bethlehem in antiquity. Now Joan's back to talk through the story of the Copper Scroll, a story that has quickly become one of my favourites. Enjoy. Joan, it is a pleasure to have you back on the podcast and to do it in person. We are together in the same room. This is amazing. Thank you for having me. The Copper Scroll. It's an extraordinary story. It's such a mystifying object, the Copper Scroll. It is a mystifying object and people still don't quite understand it. It's one of those objects that have been found and everyone hailed as

absolutely fantastic, a brilliant archaeological discovery, and no one really knows what to do with it, and no one knows what it relates to exactly. Always associated with the Dead Sea Scrolls. But Joan, what exactly is the Copper Scroll? So the copper scroll is a scroll made of copper which is a simple answer however the other dead sea scrolls are not made of copper they're largely made of a kind of very fine leather sort of manuscript a parchment manuscript or papyrus found in caves by the Dead Sea, very momentous discovery from 1949 onwards, these incredible scrolls, largely biblical, all sorts of other bits and pieces, Second Temple Judaism, really revealed by these little fragments of text that we knew very little about. So the Dead Sea Scrolls overall are a fantastic discovery. It's a library that illuminates the first century BCE and the

first century CE and how people thought at that time. But the Copper Scroll is nothing like that. Even though it was found in one of the caves where other Dead Sea Scrolls were found, it's just a list of finding places of treasure. You've given it away there. But this is one thing to highlight straight away. Although it's always associated with the Dead Sea Scrolls, it is so different to the rest of these scrolls that we have, and also discovered alongside those others in these caves, the site of Qumran, isn't it? So it's a weird story in that it's so different to the rest, and yet it's discovered in a very similar location. It's discovered in exactly the same location, in Cave 3Q, as it's called. And this is a cave about two kilometers north of Qumran, this ancient archaeological site, the site that seems to have been first constructed by

Jewish priest kings in the early first century BCE, and then taken over by a particular group called the Essenes. I subscribe to that hypothesis. So who are the Essenes? The Essenes are a kind of legal school of Second Temple Judaism, and they had a particular interpretation of Bible and how to do law and philosophy, really. And they had a lifestyle, a distinctive lifestyle that was more concerned

with purity than other Jews of their time. So the Essenes were particular. And it seems that they were living at the site of Qumran. And it seems that they were responsible for putting all of these amazing scrolls in caves around the site of Qumran. I think personally they were putting them in caves over many years. They were almost burying them for longevity. They were thinking about preserving them for the end time when all would be revealed because they had the name of God on them and they didn't want to destroy the name of God. So they were carefully burying these sacred scriptures. So there's an attitude of reverence in putting these scrolls in these caves. And we've got 11 caves for sure. We know that there were scrolls placed in. There

were probably all sorts of other caves as well where scrolls were placed. We just don't have the scrolls from those caves. We have maybe bits of pottery or textile, but not the scrolls. But in amongst those caves, in cave three, they discovered not only the typical scrolls of the Dead Sea Scrolls, fragments of different biblical books and some other unidentified fragments, but they found this copper scroll. And the amazing thing is that this was found by archaeologists. It was one of the few caves where archaeologists went into a cave and found what was inside it. Most of the Dead Sea Scrolls have been found by Bedouin. Because this was the story, wasn't it? That's the story we've done in the previous

podcast about the other Dead Sea Scrolls. As you say, they're kind of found by chance. Following World War II, isn't it? It's around that time. But this one is actually done with the proper excavation. Exactly. So that should make it fantastic because we've got archaeologists actually going in and doing a proper archaeological excavation. The problem was that in 1952, when the cave was discovered, there was a certain amount of haste about the archaeological excavation and it was never fully published. and it was never fully published. So the team that went into Cave 3Q was led by an archaeologist, Henri de Contenson, a very eminent archaeologist. He had a group with him. They went into the cave and they did some excavation and they took the things out of the cave. But he never fully published a really proper archaeological

report with plans and stratigraphy and where exactly each find was located within the cave. And that was partly because people were interested in the contents of the cave. They were interested in what the scrolls were about, but they weren't so interested in all the archaeology and all the kind of information that we now know can be gained from archaeology. So it's rather frustrating in that you have different reports about where exactly the copper scroll was found within the cave. And that adds to its mystery because some people like myself, I wonder whether the Copper Scroll was placed in the cave sometime after the parchment, the Dead Sea Scrolls proper, if you want to call them that, were placed in the cave

because there's a question about the dating of the Copper Scroll. Which we're going to get to yes so it would be so nice to know if it was in a position where you could have put it in some at some point later on in the cave because the cave let's say cave three where the copper scroll is found i mean can you kind of paint a picture of what this cave looks like are we thinking a big open cave or is this in the middle of an arid landscape? I mean, were there many different chambers? Well, I visited the cave for the first time only a few years ago, and it was really great to go there.

I went with the archaeologist, Shimon Gibson, and we explored there with my husband, Paul, as well. And of course, when you go to an archaeological site like that, you have to be very careful. You don't move anything. It's not widely known where it is because you don't want just any old visitor turning up. So you don't get a sign saying, this is cave 3Q, follow the track. It's not open to the public. But if you do your homework, you can find out where exactly it is. But you have to be very, very respectful of going to a site like this. It's been excavated again quite recently by the École Biblique and other archaeologists who are now putting out a new book, really trying to pull together all of the archaeology of the cave.

And I was really following in their footsteps to just check out what it looked like now. The form of the cave now has changed a lot since its early excavation. Since 50 years ago, wow. It has been. It was re-excavated in the 1990s. So various people have gone to the cave and done stuff to it so it's certainly not pristine it's not as it was left in 1952 but from what we gather and i've met Henri de Cottenson in in Paris and talked to him about the excavation. As far as we know, it was not immediately visible.

They managed to break through a small opening and then a cave opened up to them. And what they saw inside was a pile of pots in the middle of the cave and, you know, there was rats' nests and, you know, it had clearly been entered by vermin that had eaten the parchment, which was why there was not much left of the parchment. But they didn't immediately find the copper scroll because the copper scroll was in a niche and it was hidden by soil. It was covered up by soil. So as they excavated, as they dug around,

then the copper scroll came to light in this little niche. But what is not clear, and Henri de Cottenson indicated this, is where the original entrance for the cave was. So was the copper scroll near the front of the cave or around the middle of the cave or at the back of the cave? That just depends on how you reconstruct the cave as it was at the time that the scrolls were placed in it. And that's also it's an important point to try and understand where and the context in which it was placed which as you've hinted at and we'll get to later leads to the whole dating question of the copper scroll now with the discovery of the copper scroll in that particular cave this might initially seem like an easy question but actually this is a mind-blowing question in itself. Copper has been there for some 2,000 years, just under 2,000 years. When it's discovered, what did it look like?

I remember it looked very different. Well, exactly. It was green and it was broken into two rolls. So that in itself is quite interesting that they didn't roll it up in one it would have originally been a a long copper scroll made of really beautiful high quality copper so it was like 99% 99% copper natural copper with only 1% of tin in it. So most copper today, and I've actually got a piece of copper over there that I was going to show you.

Oh, as you do. Yes, absolutely. We'll do a social video at the end, absolutely. But that has got more tin mixed into it and it's not so viable. That's the kind of copper that you can buy now. But pure copper is a treasure in itself. So when you think about the treasure of the copper scroll and what the copper scroll means, you've got to remember that the copper scroll itself is a treasure to have this much copper. So whoever had the copper scroll,

who wanted to put it in the cave and wrote on it, they would have had resources to buy this really really beautiful copper now in order to make it pliable it would have been annealed it would have been heated it would have what do you mean by annealed it has to be dealt with by a someone who is a metal specialist you can't just get a whole lot of copper and think that everything is going to be fine you can just write on just hammer it out and yeah you have to be careful about it and i don't know all of the different details of of managing copper but i've read enough to know that you have to have a specialist in how to deal with copper it's in three sheets the total length is 2.4 meters so it's very very long 2.3 meters about 2.4 2.4 meters my apologies so that's very long and the three sheets the reason why it was rolled up in

two is that one of the sheets broke so they had these joins that they meant to roll it up all together, but instead they were so hasty as they rolled it up, one broke off. What's interesting is they didn't go, oh, let's take some time to put it back together again. Let's make sure everything is neat and tidy. They went, fine, it's okay, just roll it up. We'll just deal with it as it is, we'll stick it in the cave. So that indicates something about people doing this in a hurry, which again ties in with the fact that there is treasure indicated in the scroll, that they are hiding treasure in the face of some kind of threat. There's a calamity, a future calamity that's quite near to them. They're hiding this treasure.

They're putting the place they've hidden it on this copper scroll, but they're hiding it in a hurry. They're not rolling it up and making it all neat and tidy. When it was found, as I said, it was green. It was also oxidized and totally, totally hard. So when it was found in 1952, people could see on the outside of the scroll that there were Hebrew letters. And the original scholars looking at it were trying to read the sort of mirror writing from the outside of the scroll to see what the contents were, because they were pressed through the copper and you could see the the writing on the other

side but they couldn't read the inside of the scroll because you say oxidized and that is why some of the footage from the 1950s will get to that you've also inserted the treasure which we will get to we're nearing there but first we need to talk about the unraveling the oxidized so originally more than two meters long but because of that oxidization is that why it looked so like cylinder like quite crumpled when it was discovered yeah absolutely it did look like two cylinders completely rolled up absolutely as hard as anything the idea that you could actually open up the copper scroll and read what was inside the task in itself how would you do this in the 1950s now we have of course ai and all sorts of wonderful things we could probably have done it rather differently but then they just thought we've got to read what's inside this but they thought about it they talked about it and it wasn't

immediate it certainly wasn't an immediate thing that they thought right let's chop it open you've got to give them the game away jo Joan. So what do they ultimately decide and where? What's the story of how the Copper Scroll is, well, metallically unravelled? So it was really John Allegro, who was the Jordanian advisor on the Dead Sea Scrolls at that time, very close to the Hashemite royal family. He was based at the University of Manchester. He knew people in Manchester. And he knew Henry Wright Baker at the Manchester Institute of Technology. And basically, Wright Baker and John Allegro worked out what needed to be done. And Wright Baker said, I have a plan. And I can cut the scroll open, the two rolls open very carefully

with a very fine instrument, a cutting instrument, and I will do it and everything will be well. And John Allegro took wonderful documentary photographs and a video, a i should say a film a cine film of the opening of the first role baker i think looks quite calm that man's got some confidence doesn't he if he's literally soaring in to this i always don't like using the word unique but it feels this very special object unlike any others found in the caves and to try and open it you're bringing a sword to it i mean yeah he's got some confidence that guy i think he must have he must have had nerves of steel to cut through the copper the first roll in 1955 the jordanians sort of hung back a bit on the second roll just in case it didn't work out too well and then the the second roll was done in 1956 and and you can see in the photographs this careful slicing through the roll from outside to the inside and of course when he

did that he had no idea what he was slicing through he had to slice through letters there was no other alternative he did it very carefully and then all the rolls were laid out and finally John Allegro and others could read them. And that is why today if you type in the Copper Scroll or as I've been very fortunate to do quite recently go to the new Jordan Museum in Amman and you go to the room where the Copper Scroll is laid out. It is literally just in strip after strip after strip because of how it was very specially unravelled. And you can see points where it was bound to happen that sometimes with the stripping,

it's gone through the middle of a particular letter on the scroll. But that is why it is such an interesting artefact is how it's laid out as well in that strip fashion. Yes, yeah. It's quite beautiful, I think, when you see all the strips together, the way it's displayed. Twenty-three strips now, some wider, some smaller. The ones inside are smaller. It is readable.

I think anyone who can read Hebrew can make make out letters can make out a few words you you scrutinize it and you and you can read it but the trouble is you can read it in various different ways because the script is is strange so everything about the cop scroll is how do you mean strange is it a particular type of hebrew it's a particular kind of hebrew it's a later form of hebrew than the rest of the dead Scrolls, which is also an issue in terms of its dating. It's a Mishneic type of Hebrew. It's got distinctive features of the language, and it's got Greek in it, which is distinctive of later Hebrew as well. but that's the actual content. But the letters are very hard to, even though you can read Hebrew, it's difficult to know the difference between, say, the letter H. A H and a H

is basically the same. They're two types of H sound. Or a B and an R look very much the same in the Hebrew. And various other letters look almost identical, a yod and a waw. So that's a Y and a W or U. They look the same. And there's distinctive spellings as well to add to it, almost as if someone wasn't that adept in terms of literacy, this idiosyncratic ways of spelling. So what is going on? Who wrote it? Was it a scribe who just really couldn't do letters properly on copper and just thought, oh, you know, I'll do my best?

Or was it someone who had a master copy and was trying to copy that onto copper who had it already written out on parchment or bits of parchment? Were they trying to combine different things together in copper writing? It's not usually with a parchment scroll. You would write it with ink, of course. This is all pressed with three different instruments, two that are straight and one that is curved. And someone was pressing the letters in with these instruments onto the soft copper. When this was being deciphered, when you have all of these strips and you're looking at, I said sometimes quite enigmatic words you say can be interpreted in different ways. It's not very easy to see, but it can be interpreted. For those people who were deciphering it, who were looking at it, was it a case of just laying out those strips in a line

and seeing if it's kind of almost lined up because i'm guessing if it was originally kind of a two meter long strip that it's not just one strip will reveal one part of it the one strip will reveal the beginning of the first line the second line the third line and then you need the next strip and the next strip to read more along the line the top line than the second line and so on that's right the strips i don't correspond to the columns. So there's 12 columns of the copper scroll and the cuts are made in the middle of the columns. So in that way, having the scroll written in columns replicates how things are written in parchment. So the columns of the Isaiah scroll, for example, the great Isaiah scroll you can see in the Israel Museum, you have a long strip rolled up, but then people would

unroll and read a column and then roll a little bit further and read the next column. So they're replicating that, but in copper, because that's kind of their template this is how things are written so generally i can imagine it differs in places but is it roughly two strips equals one column of writing almost it depends on the width of the strip because it really because of course when they're when they were putting the saw to the copper scrub they wouldn't have known that but it's interesting so it isn't just that that's clarified something in my mind straight away it's not just one line along the top all the way along the top for the two meters exactly it is dividing itself into almost sub sections of column after column after column replicating what it's shown it said in the dead

sea scrolls exactly yes but they're always cut into there's always a cut through the columns Yes, but they're always cut in two. There's always a cut through the columns. Sometimes two cuts through one column. And then, weirdly, there's a bit of space at the very end. So whoever was writing it tries to mash together a lot of letters as they're getting near the end, and then only to find that there's more space that they could have used. So there was a clear idea about what was going to be in it,

but just not necessarily a clear idea of how much space there was right at the very end. And again, that indicates haste. No one's doing this in a very, very careful way. So there's this weird mismatch between extremely expensive material of copper and idiosyncratic, not very good writing that isn't done exceptionally well, neatly. So what's going on there? What is going on? Well, we'll get to that answer because, well, the theories to that in this next part.

But first of all, I feel we need to mention as you've hinted at already the treasure so it talks about treasure doesn't it so i mean first of all don't give us an an overview of i mean what types of treasure does this scroll talk about and then we can focus in on a particular example a particular column well there are 64 probably 64 fine spots but there is some discussion about how many fine spots there are and they are very much fine spots because the instructions are given to someone who is going to find treasure so this is almost like x marks the spot it totally It totally is. So go here, dig four cubits down, you will find this. It's designed for someone to uncover something that has been hidden, that is very valuable.

And what has been hidden seems to be a large amount of silver. It's silver. But a lot of gold as well. And most likely this is in the form of coins which was the the usual form of silver and gold but you could get ingots as well and sometimes we get indications that there are vessels sometimes mention of clay some kind of clay receptacle, which ties in with what we know from the Dead Sea Scrolls, the scrolls themselves in Cave 1. Q were put in clay vessels.

So that's nice. We know that that's the same mentality of the people who were burying the treasure to the people that were burying the scrolls. Is that the version almost of a treasure chest kind of thing back in the time? Sometimes they mention chests. they mention chests as well we do have actually a chest of treasure but there's also references to tithe vessels or or donations of tithes and tithes were temple taxes they were what you gave to the temple, the administrative center of Judea in the first century BCE, first century CE. Everyone who lived in Judea was expected to give a certain amount of

money to the temple. So we've immediately got this tie-in between the temple and the treasure. The temple was like a gigantic bank. A lot of temples in the ancient world were also banks. We don't think of them as banks. Well, Jesus of Nazareth, isn't it? Hence why he goes to the temple and kind of throws that stuff away because it was the tax collecting, wasn't it? Well, he knew that this was a place where people gave money. He talks about the widow, the widow's mite, giving a very small coin to the temple funds. Everyone would go to the temple and give money. That was where money was held that belonged to the nation. It would be used for certain things that would be beneficial to people. There was

temple charity that was dispersed. So it was the economic system of the nation of Judea, the temple and its administrative functions were a lot about just looking after the nation. It would also sometimes need to fund other things and it could be used badly by various different rulers to do all sorts of things that they shouldn't do. But yeah, it was the treasury of the nation. So if you've got a reference to temple treasure, temple tithes, we're clearly in this world of temple administration. tithes we're clearly in this world of temple administration whoever is is writing the copper scroll has access to that and has the resources to buy the copper so we've got some link in with the jerusalem temple and yet they're being quite hasty when they're writing it you say well it seems like

they are always but it seems like so of course you can't say absolutely for certain but let's focus on one particular point of treasure or at least treasures mentioned as a particular column because i know you wanted to talk in detail and it's great talking especially in parts focusing parts on the story of the copper scroll and we go to column one if i'm correct joan column one because this has got some interesting examples on it. Well, I think, yes, nothing beats actually looking at it in detail. You have got one here. What I've got... Not column one, I must clarify. You haven't got the column one here with us, unfortunately.

There is a replica of it in Manchester, in the Manchester University Museum, in their storeroom. They've got a lovely replica that they made before it was opened. So if you want to see it the way it was before it was opened, it's there. It's not on display at the moment because they're doing renovation works. But I have seen that replica and held that replica and they really try and make it exactly as it was. But, yeah, so imagine you've opened up the copper scroll. Finally, you've got a column one of the copper scroll and you're reading it and you're managing

to read it. What you see is these lines of Hebrew letters. There's no spaces between them. There's a couple of cuts in the column. You've joined them together. And you read up off from the top, from the right-hand side, the first words. So is it right to left? It's right to left, the first column of the copper scroll. You read from the right to the left and go down through it. And what you read is in, and I won't read out the Hebrew, And what you read is in, and I won't read out the Hebrew, in the ruin, which is in the valley of Achor, under the steps leading to the east, at 40 half brick cubits, there is a chest of 17 talents, followed by the Greek letters in English, K-E-N, Ken.

Kappa, epsilon. And nun. Nun. Yes. So that is how the Copper Scroll begins. It doesn't have any introduction. It assumes whoever has found the Copper Scroll and is finding the spots knows what this is about and also knows where the Valley of Achor is and can identify the ruin. So I'm reading

out from Emile Poitier's translation of 2015, which has now become the standard translation of the copper scroll and it seems to be pretty well agreed upon that this is this is how it reads but this in itself is such a mystery you just okay in the ruin which is in the valley of accord is that not a name that is known today is that is it a mystery as in we don't know what the Valley of Achor is? Well, unfortunately, after 2000 years, it would be so lovely if we could go, oh, yes, the Valley of Achor, there it is. But even though it's mentioned in the Bible and other people later on, like Eusebius in the fourth century mentions the Valleyius in the 4th century mentions the Valley of Achor.

They do mention the Valley of Achor. They do mention the Valley of Achor. It's not clear exactly which of the valleys somewhere near Jericho it actually refers to. So we have a range of valleys that the ruin could relate to. we have a range of valleys that the ruin could relate to. One of the things that is quite interesting, though, is there is mention of steps in a valley. And if you've got steps in a valley, you would think actually of a bridge. So archaeologists might be well served thinking about which valleys going into Jericho, because we are in the environment of Jericho through the clues of different bits and pieces

of the Copper Scroll, might have had a bridge. But forgive me, it might be a silly question, but why do you think of a bridge with steps rather than, let's say, steps ascending up a side of the mountain on the cliffside or one of the valleys kind of thing? Good question. Now, one of the things about valleys in Judea, in Palestine generally, is that they fill with water. Right.

Okay. They're floodwaters, really, from rainfall up in the hills. And then they go down through these wadis, as they're called, into the main valleys like the Jordan Valley or the Dead Sea. So if you've got a valley, you don't build a structure at the bottom of a valley. So it's definitely not a building with steps going up to it. It will be a bridge over a valley with steps going up on some sides. So there's little clues there. The more you go into every part of the copper scroll, you can think, okay, what are they really referring to? How can we visualize what they're seeing? But certainly there's lots of indications that

the person who was expected to find this treasure is part of the same milieu as the person who has written this and knows where a lot of sites are that we do not know. Because I must admit, Joan, as we're also listening to that one, and I'll ask if it's similar with other columns, it seems it's a very methodical approach. It lays out the general area, as you say, an area that the person who was reading it or expected to read it would know the value of Accor. Then it goes on to highlight

a particular area there. And then it gives you almost the specific instructions of where to dig, X marks the spot, and what you would find. Exactly. Is that repeated again and again?

Yes. That is the formula that is repeated over and over and over it's here you are this is what you're seeing look at that ruin count certain amount of of cubits a cubit was about 40 centimeters or half cubit or you know this is a half brick cubit and then you have to go somewhere. It's not necessarily digging. I think people with the copper scroll sometimes think, oh, we just have to dig.

Sometimes it seems to be along a water course, and you find a particular stone and you go under the stone. It seems to be from the position of the person. So are you looking sometimes up rather than thinking about digging down? If you're in a ruin, it might be you look at a particular part of the ruin upwards. So there's no clue about whether we're looking up or down, but somehow it's supposed to be obvious to the person standing in a particular location that the copper scroll writer has indicated.

Once again, such a special document because of all of that information and so much wealth being talked about in such a pretty strange way in how it's written. I must admit, given that translation and given how you've explained how people who know the area and archaeologists who've examined this work can start, even though the areas are not known today, get more of a hint as to what they're talking about. Have archaeologists in particular, have any of them gone and tried to look for this treasure? Indeed they have. Not Indiana Jones, but John Allegro himself. He was absolutely fascinated by the Copper Scroll. You can imagine as a scholar to discover this and for him to be so connected with the Jordanian royal family. They helped him. There was a British expedition, the Dead Sea Scrolls expedition that he ran over several years, in fact, going out

and trying to identify the places. And Allegra was enormously knowledgeable about the Bible and Bible places. He had resources. He had immense expertise in terms of reading Hebrew and other languages. And he went from one place to the next and he didn't find anything. He really thought that he was on the trail of where these places were. But other places, other people have gone out. There was a particular location, the Cave of the Column that was exciting to a certain group at one time and they excavated in that cave and they found various things but not the treasure. And it's just one of those things that it's not as clear

as you wish it would be. It's possible that all of the locations are actually in quite a small area. Sometimes people have been looking around Jerusalem because it seems like there's a reference to the Kidron at one point. Sorry, the Kidron is? The Kidron is a valley that goes all the way from Jerusalem to the Dead Sea. So which side of the Kidron are you supposed to be looking at? If it's the Dead Sea side,

It's the Dead Sea side. You're some way south of Qumran. So maybe we've got locations in between the Kidron and Jericho because Jericho is a location that's clearly mentioned in the Copper Scroll. But anything in relation to Jericho is hard to identify. And is it largely believed by archaeologists that even though it hasn't been discovered yet, that the treasures that this scroll is referring to, that they were real? Unfortunately, not everyone thinks they are real. In fact, when Yosef Millik published the first official edition of the Copper Scroll in the DJD series, the discoveries in the Judean desert, and wrote about it. He said,

it's probably not real. And the reason was partly because at that time, they thought of the Essenes, the people who lived at Qumran, as very much a breakaway sect who had nothing to do with the temple, who were not in line with the thinking of the people who were in charge of the temple, and they had their own sort of alternative ways of doing things away from the temple. But now I think that view isn't quite so secure. The people who were at Qumran, even if you don't think of them as Essenes, they seem to have an awful lot of stuff in the Dead Sea Scrolls that is very concerned with the temple. If you do think of them as the Essenes, they seem to have an awful lot of stuff in the Dead Sea Scrolls that is very concerned with the temple. If you do think of them as the Essenes, I, for example, think of the Essenes as

being quite connected with the temple, but they just had a higher standard of purity when they went to the temple in terms of how they operated at the temple. So it doesn't mean that you're totally out of step with the temple if you're an a scene. But still, why have you got the temple treasure? Well, I guess this is a theory that we should go on to now before we kind of delve more into that, Joan, is where is it theorised as to where this treasure came from? Because I know you want to talk about a column 1.9 as well, and this all seems to link together at this time. Right. Yeah. So a little bit further down on column one, it's the fourth find spot. This is Pwesh's edition as well. In the Mound of Cochlit, which is a site that repeats in the

Copper Scroll, there are tithe vessels consisting of flasks and ephods. Ephods are priestly aprons, so they are connected with what priests wore when they went about their business in the temple. The total of the tithe and the treasury of the sabbatical year and a second disqualified tithe. This is very, very technical stuff in terms of what temple operations were about. You know, the sabbatical year, you're getting tithes from the sabbatical year. Second disqualified tithe, they're no good. You've transferred the tithe of actual products into money. Its opening is on the northern edge of the channel, six cubits in the direction of

the frigidarium of the bath, and then further Greek letters. Well, my goodness, there's so much in that one fine spot that indicates that it was connected with the temple, it was treasure stored in the temple. And yet, there's also treasure from the temple that's missing if it was just hiding everything that was valuable in the temple. If it is from the temple, give us a bit of the historical context. Why might it be that they are now deciding to hide treasures from the temple in Jerusalem? Right. So the temple treasure contained a lot of money, but it also had all sorts of golden vessels. And there's nothing about the golden vessels

of the sanctuary that has been hidden here. So I think that whoever had this treasure either didn't have all of the paraphernalia of the sanctuary or decided not to hide it and that's curious to me, but they're hiding all sorts of little bits and pieces of the second disqualified tithe. They've labelled it, they know what it is and they're putting it in this hiding place. So, if we're looking through the history of Judea, there are actually all sorts of times when people in Jerusalem might have wanted to hide some of the treasure from the temple, even if not all of it, or didn't have access to all of it. So, from 63 BCE, when the Roman general Pompey comes into Jerusalem. Pompey the Great, yes. Julius Caesar's great rival later on. Friend or not friend of Julius Caesar. He was basically invited as a great Western power to

sort out a civil war in Judea. There were two rival high priests and they were fighting it out and one of them wanted Pompey to come in and support him. Pompey came through and actually laid siege to Jerusalem and destroyed various forts in his path, destroyed a couple of places close to Jericho. And you could have imagined that some people supporting this particular high priest wanted to save some of the treasure from Jerusalem and hid it at that point. Then in 40 BCE, another rival high priest comes and wants to dislodge the high priest in Jerusalem. This particular high priest was supported by the Parthians, the Iranians, and goes into Jerusalem and actually takes the high priest there off to Parthian lands.

This capture of Jerusalem is also the one where Herod the Great goes to Cleopatra and then Rome, isn't it? Exactly. So this is 40 BCE. Herod flees and it's Mattathias Antigonus. So he comes in and takes over. So at that point, too, there's a crisis in Jerusalem, you can imagine people trying to save treasure from Jerusalem, if they could get out, they were saving treasure. Then all sorts of things happened when Herod died. And for BCE, there was revolution in Judea, there were people who took over the temple at that time, the Judean rebels took over the temple. and for BCE there was revolution in Judea. There were people who took over the temple at that time.

The Judean rebels took over the temple. Herod's son Archelaus really couldn't handle it and went to Rome and there had to be Roman legionaries come down from Syria and quash the rebellion for Rome. So temple treasures could have been taken out of the temple at that point in 4 BCE. In 70, the Romans came in again. This is the big one. This is the one that everyone knows about.

And so people get locked into that idea. It was all about 70. In 70, there was a siege, Vespasian's army, Titus laid siege to Jerusalem. The Roman army came through in 68, destroyed things in Jericho, destroyed Qumran, then went on to Jerusalem, laid siege. But at that point, Josephus, the historian who talks about that particular episode, he says people couldn't get their treasure out of Jerusalem. The siege was

so fierce that not even their own people couldn't escape and they couldn't escape with their treasure and they buried it in their houses. And actually, in terms of Roman propaganda, they very much claimed to have got all of the temple treasure. They took it to Rome, and you can see it in the Arch of Titus in Rome. To this day, the Romans parading the temple treasure, including now the golden artefacts, the menorah, the golden candlestick, and various other sacred artefacts from the sanctuary. So they have got that treasure. So it's unlikely it was the treasure of

70 CE. I guess it's that one big theory that some people are saying because they get hooked on the great Jewish revolt and the the fall of that temple that they think that oh maybe some treasure escaped maybe some people escaped that siege and the Romans didn't take it all and then that becomes part of the treasure the copper scroll is talking about. But as you've highlighted there, what maybe people have overlooked is that there are events earlier in the timeline when treasure could have been taken out of the Great Temple, if it refers to treasure from the Temple in the Copper Scroll. It could be earlier, and that would fit in better with the dating of the actual Dead Sea Scrolls being in the first century BCE largely.

But there's also another alternative. Okay, great, great. The other alternative is to push it further in time into the second century. And I have written an article saying that that is quite a likely scenario. I'm not absolutely 100% fixed on it, but if we're going to think about a scenario where people are gathering together temple tithes and temple money, and yet are in this location sort of around the Dead Sea, Jericho, and not in Jerusalem, because you kind of expect temple treasure to be hidden closer to

Jerusalem sorry that's I just it bothers me that it is around Jericho so how far away from that for Jerusalem is that then roughly is it 25 kilometers some of that it's a bit of a distance yeah but Jericho is not Jerusalem so if you're hiding quickly from Jerusalem, I would imagine that you'd go to places around Jerusalem, Bethlehem, for example. There's lots of caves around about Jerusalem you could have hid treasure in. But this is quite a distance away. Dead Sea is quite a distance away.

Jericho is quite a distance away. We know that there were priests in Jericho that continued on. It was a priestly city, so priests having something to do with making sure that treasure was put away would make sense. But one of the things that's been pointed out actually by Jesper Hoenheun, who's done another edition of the Copper Scroll, is that the landscape of the scroll is a very deserted, ruined landscape. If you're just reading it for landscape, it's ruin after ruin after ruin. It's not occupied towns. And that seems to indicate that there was a devastation. Again, a devastation you could maybe link up with the Parthians or maybe link up with what Pompey did

but we know that the Romans when they came in to put down the second revolt in the year 130 to 136 was the Bar Kokhba revolt the Bar Kokhba revolt they that was a major Judean revolt against Rome they wanted to rebuild the temple they clearly had the funds to rebuild the temple. They clearly had the funds to rebuild the temple. They were likely still doing things in terms of temple cultic operations. They issued a coin which talks about a high priest called Eliezer in the Bar Kokhba period. So they still have the temple mentality. They issue coins showing the temple that they are going to rebuild in Jerusalem, but they don't actually do it. And ultimately, the Romans come in and utterly devastate Judea. They destroy every single village and town in Judea. It's such a destruction. They kill hundreds of thousands of people and

enslave others. It is one of the most atrocious things that happened in the ancient world, what the Romans did to destroy Judea as a concept in the middle of the second century. And they talk about it, Diocasius talks about it in this way. The devastation was huge. So if you've got that kind of event happening and you can see the Romans coming and destroying everything in their path as they put down the revolt, the priestly class in Jericho who were still hanging on to the temple treasures, hopeful of the rebuilding of the temple, would then want to hide them away and hope that someone would find them in the future

of their own ilk and then rebuild the temple. So basically, of all those theories, so you would argue that the Copper Scroll is created in a hurry, almost as the Romans are approaching, they're in Jericho or somewhere near there, and they decide to hide the treasure in that area and hopefully come back, retrieve it in time, retrieve the treasure, and continue it once almost this sweeping Armageddon has passed.

It's rebuilding the nation. It's the hope of rebuilding the nation. There's a lot of hope in the Copper Scroll, but there's also a pragmatism,. There's a lot of hope in the copper scroll, but there's also a pragmatism, I think, in that it is made of copper. And the reason I think it's made of copper is for longevity. It will survive a cataclysm. Copper will not melt at a low temperature. It will be okay for years to come. So it's a long range thinking in terms of the copper scroll. They're thinking of the future, of rebuilding in the future, of having this money for rebuilding. I mean, it is such an intriguing object. I guess my last kind of question is, should we call it a Dead Sea Scroll then? It is a Dead Sea Scroll in that it is found by the Dead Sea in a cave by the Dead Sea.

So yes, it is a Dead Sea Scroll. It's just a very unusual one. Joan, this has been fantastic. It's been wonderful to do this episode in person. And it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast today. Thank you very much for having me. cast today. Thank you very much for having me. Well, there you go. There was Dr. Joan Taylor talking you through the story of the Copper Scroll, this amazing artifact and part, whether an anomaly, but still part of the Dead Sea Scrolls. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free,

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