The Ancients - Elizabeth II: The Making of The Queen

Episode Date: September 8, 2022

Queen Elizabeth II has died after 70 years on the British throne. Born in April 1926, Elizabeth Windsor became heir apparent, aged 10, when her uncle Edward VIII abdicated and her father George VI became king. In 1947 – She married navy lieutenant Philip Mountbatten, a Greek Prince, at London’s Westminster Abbey before being crowned there in 1953 in the world’s first televised coronation. In this special episode of Dan Snow’s History Hit, Dan is joined by historian Kate Williams to look at The Queen’s childhood, adolescence in WWII and the upbringing that made her a monarch admired around the world.Producer: Charlotte LongAudio editor: Dougal Patmore

Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like The Ancients ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. Hi there, I'm Tristan and welcome to the Ancients. Today we're bringing you a special memorial episode for Queen Elizabeth II, who has sadly died at the age of 96. It's an interview with Dan Snow and Royal Historian Kate Williams

on the life and legacy of this extraordinary Queen from our sister podcast, Dan Snow's History Hit. I'll be back soon. On the afternoon of the 8th of September 2022, Queen Elizabeth II died. It feels here in the UK like the end of an era. This was a woman born closer to the start of intercity railway travel in 1830 than to today. She knew Churchill. She was born into a world in which her grandfather, King Emperor George V, ruled over 25% of the Earth's population. It was a world with no computers, no televisions,

no proper understanding of penicillin, DNA. She was older than the UN. She was older than the People's Republic of China. Although there's some debate, she is regarded as the second longest serving monarch in history, having reigned for 70 years, around two years less than Louis XIV of France, and he cheated because he came to the throne as a small child. She was born on the 21st of April 1926. She discovered that she would be queen on the day that her uncle, Edward VIII, abdicated, and her father was placed on the throne. She served during the Second World War, so she's a veteran of that conflict. She served in the Auxiliary Territorial Service, she served in uniform, and she performed the role of constitutional monarch,

hardly putting a foot wrong. Even her detractors would admit that she hardly put a foot wrong for 70 years. I've seen her a couple of times. Once up close, I was in the press of veterans at the cemetery in Bayeux on the 70th anniversary of D-Day, and she walked through the middle of them in a bright lime green outfit, hat and dress matching. She was almost luminescent, and the effect she had on the crowd, the onlookers, the veterans, the serving armed forces personnel, was like nothing I've ever seen. It was fascinating. She's a woman who's met so many people of consequence from all over the world, leaders, scientists, rock stars, over the years. She's left behind a gaping hole in British life,

the difficult time for the United Kingdom. As an Anglo-Canadian, I appreciate that I'm hopelessly biased when it comes towards the Queen. I search for outside voices and commentators make of her, and I was always very struck when Barack Obama, a man whose grandfather was tortured by the British, who had no particular love for the British, unlike other anglophilic presidents of the United States. He said once at an event that had nothing to do with Britain, he was actually at Shimon Peres's funeral, the former prime minister of Israel. So he's talking to a very un-British audience. He's talking to an audience in Israel. And he said that the three most impressive statespeople he met during his tenure as president was Nelson Mandela, Shimon Peres,

and Queen Elizabeth II. I always found that such an arresting assessment of Queen Elizabeth, spoken by a man who wasn't setting out to flatter. It felt like an honest moment from the president. Over the last few days and hours, I'm sure you'll have been hearing endless obituaries of the Queen. You don't need me to help in that department. But the team over at History thought that what we could do that might be a bit different was look at the making of the Queen, the history of the woman herself, her early history from her childhood through to her young adulthood and ending with her accession to the throne. For that, we turned to a great friend of the podcast, the very brilliant Kate Williams. She's the Professor of Public Engagement with History at the University of Reading. She's been on the podcast many times before. She's a royal

commentator. You'll have seen and heard lots from her over the last few days, I hope. But this, hopefully, is a different angle, one that focuses on the making of this remarkable, global institution, Queen Elizabeth II. Enjoy. global institution, Queen Elizabeth II. Enjoy. Kate, tell me about what the world was like in 1926 when the Queen was born. The world when the Queen was born was a completely different place. We have to remember that women over 30 only just got the vote. The country had only just come out of the bleak and long time of World War I and the Spanish flu. And it was a time both of great expansion, of freedom, of flappers, and also of great poverty. The Great War debt was very large. And we see the hunger strikes, we see the general strike going on

in 1926. So really, it's a time which is at once a great expansion, and also great debt and poverty. The Queen is born into a completely different world, a world before television, before airplanes, before the internet, before technology. Really, she's born into a world that none of us can really imagine, let alone remember. She was, as we might say, taken a minor member of the royal family, right? She wasn't expecting to take the throne, ever. Princess Elizabeth was very much a minor member of the royal family. Her father was second in line. Her uncle, of course, was Edward VIII. Her father, George, was not expected to take the throne. Edward VIII would take the throne. His children would continue.

So she was in a very unique position of being a very popular member of the royal family. There was a huge outburst of excitement about her birth, but it was expected that she would really not be part of the royal firm, as it were. She would be married off. That would be her role. In the old days, her role would have been one as a royal marriage pawn, creating marriage alliances. By this point, that wasn't the case. But certainly, as her mother said, her expectation for her daughters was that they would have happy memories and happy marriages. Elizabeth herself said when she was young that her desire was to marry a farmer and have lots of horses and dogs. That's really what she thought she'd do. The royal family back then, were they as busy with official business as the minor members of the royal family are now? I mean,

her dad as Duke of York, would he have had quite a big role? The royal family's business in the 1920s was very much less than it was now. The royal firm, as we know it now, wasn't really a concept in the 1920s. So as a consequence, what you have is all the work being done by the major royals, by George V, by Queen Mary, by the Prince of Wales, later Edward VIII. And so the Queen's father, the Duke of York, he really doesn't have that many duties. And he, of course, doesn't have a job. So really, for a man of his position, an elite man in the 1920s, he spends much more time at home than would have been customary. So the Princess

Elizabeth and the Princess Margaret, they do get a lot of time with their father. Was that a happy time for them? The childhood of Princess Margaret and Princess Elizabeth was a very happy time for them. They talk about it as a happy time. It was a time when they had their parents to themselves. They called themselves we four, us four. Many people would have felt a family of just two girls was rather small in the 1920s for the aristocracy. They did not. They were completely happy with four. They did things together. They spent an awful lot of time together. And really, the Queen's education with Princess Margaret was actually, I would say, comparatively light

because they spent so much time doing fun things as a family together. Sounds quite nice. What about, it was a time of great turmoil. There were royal families being ousted and beheaded and shot and thrown into exile all over Europe. I wonder if you'd been in the late 1920s in the UK, would you have thought there'd still be a monarchy in 100 years hence? It was a time of great unrest during World War I. The Tsar had been shot. It had been the end of the monarchy in Russia. And there was a lot of instability, a lot of questioning about monarchy. And of course, a lot of questioning about the elites, questioning about the aristocracy of which the monarchy was the great representative, due to the working man saying, I'm sorry, I fought for you in World War I. Now, where's

the recompense? You have the strikes, you have the hunger strikes, you have the hunger marches. And really, I think that the monarchy had to work hard to show that it wasn't part of excess, it wasn't part of government. And you do see, I think, the monarchy trying to reinvent themselves as much more frugal as apart from politics in an attempt to survive what had been undergone by so many of the monarchies. Certainly, I think that people in the 1920s who saw a great modernity coming, who saw great change coming, would have felt that the monarchy was perhaps going to be much reduced by this point, whereas instead it has actually grown since the 1920s in terms of expansion, in terms of members of the royal family, in terms of duties. That's interesting. Do you think

the monarch and the royal family play a bigger role in Britain today, do you think, than they did in the 1920s? I think the monarch and the royal family, certainly under Elizabeth II, played a bigger role in public life than George V played. For example, George V and Queen Mary, they didn't have a huge amount of charity patronages. What we've seen in, they didn't have a huge amount of charity patronages. What we've seen in the 20th century is a huge expansion of charity, is of course, most of all, expansion of travel, the fact is estate visits going back and forth, in which that's been a key role of Elizabeth II, that she's our most travelled monarch in history. If you add up how many times she had been around the world, it's about 40, more than 40 times

going around the world, travelled all over the world, state visits back and forth. So in terms of travel, in terms of visibility, in terms of charity, in terms of engaging with public events, the role of the monarchy, the work of the monarchy is much greater in the late 20th century, in the beginning of the 21st century, as it was in the 1920s. in the beginning of the 21st century as it was in the 1920s. And certainly some of this is to do with the personality of Elizabeth II herself, and some of it is to do with the increasing demands on the monarchy, and particularly the fact was that George V was the monarch of empire, and even though Britain was trying to hold on to that, even though many countries were demanding independence,

demanding a release from the oppression, the Queen, as Queen of Commonwealth as opposed to empire, saw it as very much her role to keep the Commonwealth together and to represent and to participate. What about the big moment when her uncle decides to abdicate? How much do we know about what, did she ever talk about this and the effect had on her? What do we know about that young woman who suddenly discovered she was being thrust into the line of succession? The day when Edward VIII abdicated on the 10th of December 1936 was a day that rocked the royal family. And the Queen hasn't talked about it. She doesn't talk much about parts of her youth and memories.

It's a very unique time that we have her memory of World War II. But we do have the record of it from her governess at the time. And what happened was the Queen, then Princess Elizabeth with Princess Margaret, really didn't know much about what was going on. And the princesses were at home. And what the Princess Elizabeth was doing was she was writing up her notes from her swimming lesson. She was a very methodical child. After she had a lesson, she would write up her notes. So she was busy writing up her notes from the swimming lesson. And there were all these great shouts outside and cries. And Elizabeth went to a footman and said, but what's happening? And the footman said, your uncle is abdicated and your father is king.

And Elizabeth, I mean, what a shock. She's only 10. They didn't really know what was going on, she and Princess Margaret. And suddenly this is news. And she goes to Princess Margaret and she says, Margaret, our father is now king. Our uncle's abdicated. And Margaret says, oh, well, does now king. Our uncle's abdicated. And Margaret says, oh, well, does that mean you're going to be queen now? And Elizabeth says, well, yes. And Margaret

says, well, poor you. That was such a typical exchange. And it's such a big day. It's such a huge day that everything's in the change for the family. But Elizabeth, as an adult, was very similar to how she was as a child. The epitome of that much-used maxim in the early 21st century, keep calm and carry on. She was the example of that. She wasn't flippable. She, instead of panicking, she sat down and she carried on writing up her notes from her swimming lesson, as she had been doing before. But she made one major change.

At the top of the piece of paper, she wrote a new title, and it Abdication Day and she underlined it. Because everything, everything had changed. Nothing was going to be the same again. Her uncle had abdicated, her father was king and the role that she had expected as an aristocratic wife was marrying a farmer, horses and dogs in the country. That was all over. What about, did she get special training to be queen? What is the education required for a monarch? The major change for Elizabeth and Margaret was that they moved from the house in Piccadilly, that was their family home, to Buckingham Palace. And this was very different. Buckingham Palace is a huge institution. It's an office, it's a place of work, it's not a family home. And also their parents were much less accessible. George VI and the Queen Elizabeth,

they were always busy. They weren't always available to their daughters as they had been. And also there was a great strain on George VI. He really found it very stressful becoming king. He was very nervous about it. It was nerve wracking for him. It was a very difficult example. He knew that lots of people in the royal family thought that his brother was the golden boy and he wasn't quite up to it. It was being very stressful ensuring that his brother actually left the country and didn't abdicate and stay in the country. So really he underwent a lot of stress and I think that the daughters saw that and that really is one reason why to a large degree Elizabeth had felt very much that she didn't want to abdicate in her later life because she saw what it did

to her own father and the stress that it put him under. In terms of education, there wasn't a huge revolution in Elizabeth's education in terms of changing it. It still was very much a typical education for a girl at the time. And there was some talk that she should go to university, to Cambridge or to school. That didn't happen. But what did happen were the special meetings, special educational lessons that she had with the Vice Provost of Eton, Sir Henry Martin, about constitution, about the role of the monarch. And she went to Eton regularly from Windsor and even throughout the war, going to Eton, speaking to Sir Henry Martin about what was the role of the monarch, about the role of

constitutional monarchy. And this was part of her education that she really paid exceptional attention to. Elizabeth knew from a very young age that she would be the monarch. It was very unlikely, for example, that her father and mother were going to have a small boy who would displace her. So therefore, she knew she was going to be the monarch. And particularly through the war, she felt very strongly that this was a job that would rest very heavily on her shoulders. She saw what her father was doing in terms of work as a wartime monarch. She saw the criticism of the monarchy, particularly through World War II. And it was something that she took very seriously, that one day she would be queen. And it was something that she couldn't just take it for granted. She had to make sure that she knew how to conduct herself. And I think particularly what Elizabeth perfected

in her role in terms of constitutional monarchy, in terms of staying out of politics, in terms of saying the country will do and the politicians will do as they wish and I must stay above it. This was something in terms of a theory that she perfected and discussed and worked through with Sir Henry Martin at Eton College. Okay, you mentioned the war three years after the abdication, what was the wartime experience of the princesses like? Initially, when war broke out, it was mooted that Elizabeth and Margaret

should be sent overseas to Canada as many aristocratic children, many elite children were being sent completely out of the way of the war. But the Queen was very resistant. The Queen said that the children would not leave without her, that she would not leave without the King, and the King would never leave. So they were all going to stay in the country, come what may.

And the princesses were sent to what we called a secret evacuation space. Really, it was Windsor Castle, and most people knew it was Windsor Castle. But they were sent to Windsor Castle, and there they really were expected to live as if they were under the same wartime restrictions as everyone else. There were lines placed on the bath to reduce the amount of water that they used. And they had quite a lot of bomb threats to Windsor Castle and airplanes flying over Windsor Castle. There were bombs dropped in Windsor Great Park.

So there were frequently moments when the sirens went off and they go down to really what we see as the cellars, the dungeons of Windsor Castle, and that would be their bomb shelter. So the children, Elizabeth and Margaret, had an incredibly privileged life during World War Two. They lived in a castle. It wasn't the same as many evacuees suffering great poverty, being sent away from home. They did see their parents who came from Buckingham Palace at weekends. But still, they had the same experience as many children across Britain in the sense that they wore their siren suits. They had their siren suits and they packed up their bags and they went down when the sirens went off to the basement of Windsor Castle. And they were very afraid for their parents. Their parents were in Buckingham Palace staying there to continue to stay in London and also to be able to visit different parts of London, visit different parts of the country. And Buckingham Palace did suffer direct hits. And there was a lot of fear, of course, just because they were princesses,

they weren't isolated from the fear. They knew what the sound of various aeroplanes going over was. And also, they knew that their parents were under threat, that their parents could be hit by a bomb. And certainly the queen, she was quite sure that there could be a possibility of invasion. And she had a gun. She used to practice with her gun just in case there was an invasion. And so really, we see a time for the princesses in which, on one hand, they live in a castle. It is a very privileged life. On the other hand, they are living very similarly to children across Britain. They are away from their parents.

They listen to sirens every night. They go down to the cellars. They are afraid and they don't know what's going to happen to their mother and father. So Elizabeth and Margaret really did live the wartime experience in a way that they wouldn't have done had they been sent aboard to Canada. And it was a key moment. The war was something that the Queen really shaped her personality. Well, she became a woman,

right? I mean, she met her future husband, and in the end, she did her first independent role. She did military stuff. Princess Elizabeth kept begging the King. She kept saying, please can I join up? Please can I join up to the services like other girls of my age? And finally, he allowed her to do so. She joined the ATS and trained as an ambulance driver. So she went down to the ambulance driver training facility, and there she trained to drive to fix her ambulance. And really, this is incredibly important because had the war not ended, had she gone out to the Western Front, being an ambulance driver is incredibly tough. You have to drive an ambulance full of men who are dying, who were severely injured. You were often threatened by

airplanes, by bombs. It's a tough job. And so you also have to be ready to fix your ambulance if it breaks down. So the fact was that the princess was training for this incredibly tough, incredibly difficult, incredibly hard job out there on the front. That was really significant. And she took to the training like a duck to water. She loved fixing her ambulance. She loved driving her ambulance. She had a very practical mind. And this was just ideal for trying to work with a quite complicated engine of an ambulance. And the fact was that the future queen was doing this, was used as vital propaganda. She was on the front of so many magazines and newspapers shown with her ambulance, shown in her ATS uniform. It was an incredible source of pride for her. And I think a very significant moment of propaganda for Europe saying the future

Queen is doing this. Everyone is participating. You've studied the Queen so closely and she's lived through such a period of extraordinary change in human history. But do you think these years are formative, almost the most important in her life. I think the Queen's childhood and adolescence were her formative years, in terms of the war, in terms of training as an ambulance driver, in terms of meeting Prince Philip, and in terms, most of all, of being catapulted into great change. One minute she thought she was just a little girl who grew up and married a farmer, live in a big house and have lots of horses.

Then she realised she would be queen. And all the responsibility of continuing the monarchy during a time of great change, during a time in which monarchs were less popular, during a time in which monarchs had been thrust off their thrones, this was up to her. So the queen, really, the personality that she retained throughout her reign and served her very well was one that was created during her young years, one in terms of which she saw how monarchs could get in terrible trouble if they got involved in politics, and one in which frugality, restraint, and self-sacrifice were important during the war

years. And the fact was that the war years really did shape the queen. It was the formative time of adolescence, which is so important to so many of us. And this was a time in which, like so many women of her age, war was the be all and end all. War was more important than anything else. And everything was sacrificed to war. And she saw the suffering all around her. And to her, the fact was that the key role of a monarch, whatever she could do within the constitutional role to avoid another war, to see peace continue, that's what she wished for above all. And that was formed by the suffering that she saw around her in World War II. I think it's very significant that the Queen never really spoke very much about her experiences, her personal life, her feelings.

And one exception was that she spoke about her feelings and experiences on V-Day, the end of the war, the end of the war in Europe. She talked about how she went out there and there were people joining arms, there were people thrilled, overwhelmed with happiness about seeing peace coming to Europe, the end of World War II. And that to me is very significant. She spoke about the end of the war because it was one of her enduring memories throughout her entire life. And she really did see it as a very important role of the monarchy in whatever she could do is to ensure that the country never went through World War II ever again. Is it true that she went out and joined the crowds in front of Buckingham Palace? She snuck out of the palace and joined the crowds

all cheering, going bonkers. It is amazing because George VI was the most protective father you could imagine. And when the Princess Elizabeth said to him, look at all those crowds out enjoying themselves, celebrating the end of the war. Can we go out too? He actually said yes. So she and Princess Margaret went out there and they joined the crowds and she was in her ATS uniform. And initially she was going to put the cap down so that you didn't realize who she was but one of the officers who were accompanying them said he couldn't have that because you're wearing uniform incorrectly so she went out there and lots of people said that isn't that Princess Elizabeth going past no no it can't be so they went out there they joined arms they were dancing I mean you know

there was all kinds of stuff going on there at the time it wasn't there there was a lot of drinking and a lot of sort of carousing so these two innocent princesses, there was all kinds of stuff going on there at the time, wasn't there? There was a lot of drinking and a lot of sort of carousing. So these two innocent princesses were exposed to all kinds of behavior, but they were really witnesses to the joy. And it was such an exciting moment for them when they went out enjoying the crowds in the mall and they cheered. God save the king. We want the king. And they cheered down there for the king and queen. Of course, their parents. And that was a moment really of incredible freedom, the only moment of freedom in which the queen had throughout her life. What the rest of us take for granted, we mingle with the crowd, part of the crowd, no one recognises us. She was Princess Elizabeth. She was the future queen.

But that night, she was simply another female officer, another female member of the ATS who was out there celebrating the war was over. of the ATS who was out there celebrating the war was over. Just another young person who was so happy. And really, that was this night of incredible celebration for so many across the country, real freedom, real joy. And particularly for the Queen, this moment of freedom, she for the only time in her life was one of the crowd, one of everybody else, celebrating, cheering. She wasn't the monarchy. She wasn't the princess. She was just an ordinary woman for one night in her life. Just before the war, she goes to Naval College and meets her distant cousin. Just before the war started, Princess Elizabeth goes to Dartmouth Naval College with

her parents and sister. And there, her parents are on a tour of the Naval College. And who is asked to look after Elizabeth and Margaret? Well, it's their distant cousin, Prince Philip. They've met briefly once before at a family wedding. But now Prince Philip is asked to entertain Princess Elizabeth. And she is 13. He's 18. He's the top cadet. He's incredibly successful at Naval College. He's about to go out to war. He's handsome. People have talked about their possible marriage because he's a prince from quite early on. In terms of the belief that a princess should marry a member of royal blood, he too is a descendant of Queen Victoria. He's ideal. So the princess really falls in love with him on the spot. He's a naval cadet. He's handsome. He's so kind. They go and jump nets. They chat. They play a few games. He's so kind. They go and jump nets. They chat. They play a few games. And after the tour of Dartmouth Naval College, the royal family go to the royal yacht and Prince Philip joins the princesses on the royal yacht and eats tea with them.

And he eats a banana split. And the princess Yacht, rowing behind the Royal Yacht. And every one of the cadets, they all turn back apart from Prince Philip. He carries on rowing and Princess Elizabeth can see him. She can see him. The only one still rowing behind the Royal Yacht. The king has to command Prince Philip to turn back because otherwise he won't. And that, I think, is what a romantic memory. If she hadn't already fallen in love with him by that point, how could you not? And throughout the war, they write to each other. Of course, Prince Philip, he liked her very much, but she was just a young girl. It wasn't until much later when she was 16, when he came to stay with the family in Windsor Castle, and she was putting on a pantomime that he fell in love with her and the family.

But it was a relationship that was formed, like so many, through wartime, through writing, through only meeting up a few times. And as soon as the war was over, as soon as Prince Philip came back from the theatre of war, they started meeting up. They started having a courtship and Elizabeth was determined 100 percent to marry him. What's interesting is that he might have been the ideal candidate before the war. But after the war, suddenly everyone was saying, no, no, no, the future queen should marry an Englishman, an English aristocrat, not a foreign prince. But the princess was determined. She wasn't having anyone telling her that he wasn't right for her. She was absolutely sure that he would be the right husband for her. And so really very swiftly after

the war, the engagement was announced in November 1947. And rationing was still on. It was still a time of suffering. And one story I really like is that two ladies, two young ladies were listening to the radio and they heard the news about the engagement between Prince Elizabeth and Prince Philip. And they were so excited that they burnt their toast. And so that's quite significant because bread was rationed. They wasted some toast. So they actually sent this toast in to the palace to pass on the fact that they burnt their toast with excitement, which I think is greatest wedding engagement gift you could ever get as a royal. What do you give the person who has everything? A couple of pieces of burnt toast. After the war, she's not queen straight away. There's a bit of a gap. What did she get up to? What was her post-war role?

After the war, the princess, the royal family, hoped this would be a time of calm and really rest after the great strains of the war. But really, the war had battered the king's health. He was really much weakened by the war. And it became very obvious very quickly that the young princess would have to take on more and more of his duties, that increasingly her role would be one as princess in waiting very clearly. So the princess starts to do many more duties, many more duties in terms of charity work, in terms of speeches. She also has her courtship with Prince Philip. She gets married very quickly and has Prince Charles in 1948. courtship with Prince Philip. She gets married very quickly and has Prince Charles in 1948. So it is a very busy time. But still, even though the king really is weakening, his health is weakening, I'd certainly say that the queen and the princesses couldn't really see it. They were

convinced he would go on forever and ever. He was only in his early 50s, of course. And so it was a great shock when only seven years after the war ended, the princess finds herself queen. She is now queen. The king has died. So really, I think that what we see in the post-war years is one in which the king really is beginning to step back due to his health. And also what's quite striking is how the country, to a large degree, is saying, well, the king was a marvellous war leader. But let's look to the future now and she'll be our queen next. So you have a lot of focus on her as queen. And in fact, so much that what the government said was they wanted her to have the title Princess of Wales, as she would if she were a man, it would be Prince of Wales. That's what the government said.

But the king was very resistant. He said, no, no, Princess of Wales is only for the Prince of Wales wife. So that wasn't going to happen. But she was, in all but name, Princess of Wales, the queen in training, and waiting to be the future queen, which happened so much quicker than anyone could have imagined. And it had gone to be the longest reign in British history, a reign that arguably saved the monarchy for another generation or two at least. Thank you very much, Kate Williams, for coming on and talking about it.

Thank you. I feel we have the history on our shoulders. generation or two at least. Thank you very much. Kate Williams is coming on talking about it. Thank you.