The Ancients - Emperor Tiberius: Monster or Misunderstood?

Episode Date: November 23, 2025

*WARNING: This podcast contains adult themes and discussion of paedophilia*A brilliant general. A brooding autocrat. A recluse surrounded by scandal. Few Roman emperors divide opinion like Tiberius. But was he truly a monster, or the victim of centuries of salacious storytelling?In this episode of The Ancients, Tristan Hughes is joined by Dr Daisy Dunn to uncover the real man behind the myths. From Tiberius’ early brilliance on campaign to his troubled and bloody reign in Rome, and finally his notorious withdrawal to Capri, they explore how much of this lurid legacy holds up. Was Tiberius an underrated statesman undone by grief and politics, or the twisted tyrant historians have claimed? Join us to dive into the truth behind Rome’s most tragic emperor.MOREAgrippa and Augustus: The Golden AgeListen on AppleListen on SpotifyThe Rise of NeroListen on AppleListen on SpotifyWatch this episode on our NEW YouTube channel: @TheAncientsPodcastPresented by Tristan Hughes. Audio editor is Aidan Lonergan. The producer is Joseph Knight. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff.All music courtesy of Epidemic SoundsThe Ancients is a History Hit podcast.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener survey here: https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Just visit historyhit.com slash subscribe. Hello, I hope you're doing well. I'm all good here. I'm currently in my kitchen, brewing a cup of tea, English breakfast tea, just before I'm about to go off and record another ancient's interview, which is all about Mesoamerica, and that's going to be coming out in a few weeks' time, so stay tuned for that one. Today, we are in the ancient Mediterranean world. We're going to Imperial Rome and the story of Rome's second emperor, the emperor Tiberius, who's quite an infamous figure today, as you're going to hear, quite a complex character. Our guest is a good friend of mine and a fantastic classicist and author who was also recently on the podcast to talk through the story of Anthony and Cleopatra. She is, of course, Dr. Daisy Dunn, the beloved Daisy, who I know so many of you wanted more episodes with and we are delivering. I really do hope you enjoy. Let's go. The year is 14 AD, and the much-loved Emperor Augustus, the man who established to the Roman Empire, is dead at the ripe old age of 75.

A new figure steps into the power vacuum, his grim and taciturn stepson, Tiberius Julius Caesar Augustus. Now, ancient historians paint a portrait of Tiberius as a man in slow, agonizing decline. We're going to trace his path from a brilliant. general and statesman, to a paranoid tyrant, retreating to his palatial fortress on the island of Capri. The place that gave birth to horrific legends of perversions, cold-blooded executions, torture, and of a man who ruled from his very own ancient Epstein Island. But how much of his legacy is the true? Well, joining me today is the author, classicist, and friend of the podcast, Dr. Daisy Dunn to explore the reign and retreat of Rome's second and perhaps most tragic emperor.

Daisy, hello, great to have you back on the show. Thanks for having me. We were last talking about Anthony and Cleopatra. This time, Tiberius, always feels a bit of a weird one, Tiberius, because he's following in the footsteps of the first emperor, which always feels, you know, big footsteps to fill. But at the same time, I don't want that to cover up the bad stuff in his story because it is one just with all of these rumours surrounding it. It's a really interesting rule. I'll say that because Augustus in some way,

a lot of people have idealised his rule to a degree. And Tiberius, they're quite keen to portray him as the opposite. He's almost the villain in the piece. And that's not quite what happens. And also the fact that there is so much more to his story than just when he was emperor. Exactly, exactly. And I think a lot of people focus on the end of his own.

rule, which isn't so good. And they kind of don't look at the man that he actually was, but I think the man behind the throne, the mind behind the power. There's a lot kind of going on. He's actually sort of a lot more cultured, I think, than people give him credit for. Well, Daisy, set the scene for us. Whenabouts in Roman history are we talking with the story of good old Tiberius? So we're looking, as he said, after Augustus, Augustus dies in AD 14, and that's when Tiberius becomes emperor. And he rules until AD 37. But obviously his life, he's quite, he's 55 when he comes to power. So he's had a long life before then.

So we're looking right the way back into the end of the first century BC. Do we have a rich amount of sources surviving for his life? We do actually. I mean, they're fairly good for Tiberius. I mean, my favourite, you've got Suetonius's Lives of the Caesar's biographical source, Suittonius's writings of early second century. So not a million miles away from Tiberius in time. and he was head of Rome's library, so he had access to the Imperial Archives.

So he has some material to work with. Tacitus, other big kind of king of the historians at this time, working at a similar time in his annals, he dedicates a lot of time to Tiberius. Cassius Dio, another of the historians later of second to third century. We have bits of the Roman poets, which is quite useful, but of Ovid, but of all kinds of people, actually. I mean, they're quite good, plenty again. And the infamous episodes in Tiberius's life, which I'm sure we'll explore a few of them in our chat today,

do you find those stories in all of those different sources or are they more prevalent in one than the other? There are bad stories in the sources in most of those sources, I would say. I mean, Suetonius goes to town on him. Tastas does to an extent as well. So, I mean, I think there's a fair sort of idea of negativity associated with him. And I guess so also the job of the historian today, is sorting fact from fiction,

trying to figure out what is just scandalous rumour, but what might have some basis of truth in it as well? Exactly. And I think with Tiberius, that becomes quite difficult because you find actually with a lot of these emperors and particularly with Suratonius,

they like this idea of a narrative arc, the idea that people begin well, and then they're corrupted by power and things turn sour, and they want to show this kind of arc of corruption. And this seems to be, you know, like a narrative device a lot of the time. So it's quite difficult as a historian today to look past that sometimes to try and work up what's actually going on.

Well, let's go back to the beginning. So can you explain to us Tiberius' background, his family? What do we know? So Tiberius was Claudian on both sides of the family. So Claudian family, great, elite, prestigious, old family in ancient Rome. But the beginning of his life, in spite of that, is quite difficult because he is born to a man called Tiberius-Claudius Nero. They like to pile the names up. There are big names as well there, Tiberius Cordius Nero.

He's got all of them. And he was like a moderately successful politician. But he happened to fight on the opposite side to Octavian in the civil wars of the late Roman Republic. And this resulted to him going on the run, essentially, with his young family. And that was his wife, who was Livia, Drusilla, their toddling son, Tiberius. And Livia was actually pregnant with her next child who was Drusus. at that time. So they have to actually escape from Rome. They go to Sicily. They take refuge there. They even seek out Mark Antony in the east. You know, they are really in trouble. So this is

incredibly difficult. I mean, Tiberius is there. At one point, he apparently tries to, he almost gives away their sort of hiding space by crying. You know, it's a difficult beginning. And then it becomes even harder because he moves back to Rome when it's safe enough to do so. And Octavian, incredibly, makes a play for Olivia. Olivia has to marry him. And Livia's already married. Octavian himself is also married to Scribonia. She's just giving birth to their daughter, Julia. And it's such a scandal in Rome as a result of this. So the couple break up. So Livia has to marry Octavian instead. She then gives birth to Jesus afterwards. And because in Roman law, it's really the fathers who get custody

of the children, Tiberius and his brother went to live with their father, rather than be raised by the stepfather, Octavian. And the father dies when Tiberius is nine. He actually delivers the sort of funeral unity for him. And at that point, they'd have gone into the Imperial Palace and be raised by, by Octavian, the stepfather, and back to his mother. That young kid, Tiberius could never have imagined that that would have been his future when he was, you know, very, very young, fleeing Rome, you know, believing that his family were on the opposite side to the figure who had ultimately become his stepfather, Octavian, who would ultimately become Augustus. It's such an astonishing story. I mean, I think, you know, Livia and Octavian getting together

a full stop is such a shocker. Yeah, it's interesting you're saying there that Livia had to marry Octavian because sometimes people say it that Livia orchestrated the marriage with Octavian, but it seems like you think the other way... I think the way around. I mean, I'm making it sound probably like a lot more pressure of what it was. but I think it was high pressure. I mean, Tastas says that he was completely overcome by lust for her body, which I think we kind of push aside slightly. I mean, she has something to gain from this relationship.

She has lost a lot of her property because of having to go on the run, so she can potentially recover some of her losses. And, I mean, the funny thing is that her first husband, so Tiberius-Claude is near, seems to be, like, surprisingly okay with us. Like, he actually, like, presides over the wedding feast. So he's there. So it's an arrangement. It's not like a kind of absolutely forced marriage.

but it's something that takes place and it just changes the course of history really for the whole family. I mean, absolutely. And we could do a whole episode exploring the whole life of Tiberius growing up before he becomes emperor. I'm going to try and narrow that down

into only a few questions. Before we get to the Imperial Tiberius story. But can you talk us through then? Let's fast forward past the Battle of Actium. Octavian defeats Mark Antony and Cleopatra who we've already talked about and becomes the last man standing and then becomes

Augustus. Tiberius at this time, he's now in the imperial family with Augustus, Olivia and so on. Do we know much about his life at this time when he's growing up and now finds himself at the centre of this new, still quite fragile Roman order? Well, he gets advantages from the fact that he's actually entered this family with Octavian being the victor, as he say. So he is sort of pushed into a sort of public career probably early. than most people. So he gets a good education. He learns Greek really, really well. He's said to be

quite good at sort of learning oratory. And he sort of features in some of the military prades that Octavian puts on. So the actium celebrations he features. He's then sort of sent off. He gets sort of early career advantages. He goes off and fights in Germany. He goes to Armenia. He installs a new king in Armenia. So he has sort of early, early like successes, exactly. And this you probably wouldn't have had. I mean, for a start, I think he is, he's only 28 when he becomes Consul. Consul as a chief magistrate of Rome, usually also 40, 42. So he's had an elevated career as a result of his connections with Octavian. And does he also have an interest like so many other elite Romans at the time in philosophy and the like and being a very much a man of the arts

at the same time? Well, I've got to confess, I've got a huge confession, Tristan. I've been really, really harsh on Tiberius in the past. I've kind of presented him slightly as being a bit like sort of sciencey and like not really very cultured, sort of like not very civilised. Okay. And I kind of stand by this. So you care anyone who does sciences nowadays are not very civilised? Is that also what I'm. I don't mean sciences in a literal sense. I mean that he is pedantic. Okay. Right. Yeah. Pedantic rather than kind of like very, very cultured and really appreciating literature on its own marriage. That's what I. And I kind of stand by this because what we're

told in the sources is that he likes Greek, he likes philosophy in particular. But when he delivers his speeches, they're not particularly creative. They're not kind of inspiring. And Suetonius says that he loves Greek myth. So you think, okay, fine. But the detail in this is that he likes to apparently pick out sort of obscure bits of Greek myth and then test people on it. So he'd go around like asking scholars, for example, what was the name of Hekuba's mother? And to me, this sounds like someone who kind of like is one of these people who collects knowledge for its sake, you know, like for trivia so they can show off how much they know. Pub quiz.

Pub quiz type of knowledge rather than like deep appreciation. That's my impression. But like it is based on the sources, but that's how I feel about him. Sounds like being an ancient history podcast host today, to be fair. But wow, so that's very interesting because doesn't he go to Rhodes at one point as well later on or he actually gets more interested in that as time goes on? Yeah. So, I mean, Rhodes, this is six BCs.

is going forward in time. Sorry, I know we're going a bit forward. No, no, no. So this is interesting because he goes off, and it's really unexpected. He's kind of at the height of his powers at that point. He's really been doing well in Germany. He's been having various powers given to him. And he disappears, and he is exhausted at that point.

And when he's enrose, he seems to be going to lots of lectures. He goes to philosophy lectures. He seems to kind of take a little bit easy and become maybe a little bit more cultured. But it's a kind of baffling thing because he's been doing so well. and Augustus, as he's then become, Octavian's turning to Augustus, he is really trying to keep him in Rome, and Tiberius is like, no, no, I'm going to go. And he actually starves himself so that he can go, so he gets his way, he gets to go. And the really interesting thing is, is he wrote some memoirs, which we don't have now. They're kind of brief

memoirs. But we know from a quotation from those memoirs that he said that he was going because he didn't want to be compared or to be seen to be competing with his two stepson's Gaius and Lucius, who were being elevated and were being very, sort of, they're very, very popular with the Roman people. Because at that time, this is important, isn't it, whilst I kind of get us ready for the next question. Tiberius is not the labelled successor of Augustus. So can you talk us through how it ultimately does come to Tiberius being Augustus' well, next in line? Yeah, so Tiberius is absolutely not number one choice for Augustus or successor. I mean, he's pretty low down in the pile, to be honest.

I mean, Augustus really would like to have his own blood. That's what he wants. So, first of all, it looks very likely that Marcellus, who is married to his only daughter, Julia, might be the favoured candidate for power. He dies very young, so Julia is widowed. She is then married to Marcus Agrippa, who is the right-hand man of Augustus. Top guy. Top guy. They have five children.

and three of them are boys. One of the boys is the third boy is born after Agrippa dies. So he's called Agrippa posthumous. And it's posthumously. That's quite a on the nose name right now, yeah. It is, but it's a Roman thing. That's what they did. So the eldest two sons are Gaius and Lucius,

and they look like very strong candidates. Agrippa himself, he was supposedly the man that Augustus gave his seal ring to when he thought that he was dying for an illness. So he looked like a viable candidate, even though he wasn't a relation. So then we got Gaius and Lucius. But they also die really young. So they die within 18 months of each other at the beginning of the first century AD.

So, I mean, this is catastrophic, really, for Augustus. So it's only actually in AD4 that he makes Tiberius his co-air with Agrippa posthumus. He adopts both of them, and it said this is for the sake of the race publica. How play or just unlucky? What do you think? There's a lot of effort in some of the sources to present Livia as having a hand in these. But I don't believe it. I don't believe it. I mean, Marcellus, there was clearly some kind of plague going around Rome at that time. Augustus recovered. Marcellus didn't. There's no way she had a hand in that. Gaius succumbs to a wound that he sustains in battle when he's off in the East. Elusius gets unwell for some illness. We're not quite sure what it is when he's in Marseille on his way to Spain. These look all like natural deaths. I mean, it's kind of part of being a Roman in this period. You know, the odds against you are. you know, they're stacked against you. It's very difficult.

And Tiberius' younger brother, Drusus, he's already died fighting in Germany as well, hasn't he? So by this time there is just Tiberius and Agrippoposthumus left. And if we mention Agrippostomus briefly, he just looks, from what they say, incompetent or just not up for the job. So he kind of goes out of the picture. He goes out of the picture. I mean, I feel your heart goes out to this boy. I mean, maybe I'm just being soppy, but it's very difficult. I mean, he, his mother, Julia, is Tiberius' second wife. She is exiled to an island. His father has died before he's born. He's seen his two elder brothers both die within 18 months of each other. I mean, this is really tough for a group of posthumous. And it's said that his behaviour is absolutely terrible, that he has foul moods, he's violent, he's aggressive, he's particularly hostile towards Livia. And ultimately, he's actually exiled. to an island in 87 and it's you know he's then completely sort of out of the picture and it's just

very very difficult i mean tiberius at that point has been asked to adopt his nephew he's Jesus his son germanicus so there's like another iron in the fire if you like but for a grip of posthumus he is out of sight out of mind and he will be finished off and this is where possibly livia does have some involvement in that interesting yeah we'll get to that in the moment and also interesting for you to introduce another character who will mention germanicus so You've almost got three generations now, don't you? Augustus. He's now got Tiberius as his heir, but then told Tiberius to adopt Germanicus. So then there's another in line because Tiberius is already getting on by this time.

He is, and he has a son of his own as well called Jusis. I mean, there's too many. There's too many of these names being recycled, but he's another Jusis. So Drus and Jamanicus were joint rule after? Is that the idea? So there's an idea. There's always an idea of doing things in pairs. Okay.

Interesting. I feel one other thing we should mention, because you also mentioned her name, Augustus's daughter, Julia. Should we talk then about Tiberius' marriages and also his marriage to Julia? Because this also feels important when exploring Tiberius' character. So Tiberius starts off by having a very promising. happy marriage. And this is to a woman called Vipsania, who is a daughter of Marcus Agrippa. And she was just a baby when she was betrothed to Tiberius. They grew up. They got married.

They had children. Everything seems to be going splendidly for them. And then Julia is widowed by Agrippa. And 10 months go past, more than 10 months. 10 months, this is the minimum time you're allowed to be a widow in Rome. Essentially, that's because if you're pregnant, there'd be no chance of the baby, there being any doubt over the father. So, That time elapses. Augustus is desperate for Julia to remarry. And he finally sees, he said, okay, well, let's marry her to Tiberius, because Augustus and Livia had been unable to have their own child.

Apparently had a child who didn't survive. So they haven't been able to unite their two bloodlines. If they can get Tiberius and Julia to have a child, they will have achieved that. So that's the great plan. But Tiberias and Julia are about as different from each other as you can possibly imagine. They don't get on, do they? They don't go. I mean, they've had to grow up all of their childhood together. They're not going to have like some, I mean, not that a load of Roman marriages have like some great positive romance between them.

That's not always the case. There are a lot of arranged marriages. But there is absolutely no love between these two. A lot of pressure on their shoulders nonetheless. And Tiberius is still in love with Vipsania. I mean, he actually sees her in the street at one point. And he's completely like, dumbstruck by her. And he's in a real state after that. And so then measures are put in place to stop them from ever seeing each other again. So it's horrible. It's horrible. So they're forced together. They do actually conceive a child, but the son actually dies when he's very, very young. And that seems to sort of drive them even further apart. And then what happens is stories start to spread about Julia having affairs. And this is largely when Tiberius is in Rhodes, when he's gone off in 6 BC. So he's kind of disappeared.

So she is in Rome on her own, and she is sort of accused of having affairs of five or six or more nobleman. And this is disastrous, and it's really, really embarrassing for Augustus, because as part of his legislation, he has made adultery a crime. It's illegal to have affairs. And then his own daughter has supposedly, you know, fallen foul of this law. Yeah, not great. It's really, really bad politics, isn't it?

So he exiles her to an island, to Planesia, which is off the west coast of Italy. very, very remote, it's very lonely. She goes off there with her mother. Tiberius has then left. And, I mean, in Tiberius' favor, Augustus had actually considered killing her, his daughter. Tiberius is the one who actually stayed his hand. He said, you know, we need to show leniency.

Tiberius stays Augustus' hand from killing his own daughter. Yes. I mean, that's as terrible as it can get. It is. Horrific. It is. I mean, Tiberius even says she can keep the presence that he gave her. I mean, this is the good side of Tiberius, right?

This is showing him in a much more positive light. I think part of it is politic on his side. He knows that if he authorises the death of Juliet, that her sons who are still alive at this point are going to take it out on him and it could be trouble down the line. So I think he knows politically it's a better idea to show some kind of leniency towards her at this stage.

So that's really nicely set the scene for, as we approach the death of Augustus. So what do we know about Tiberius? succession for the emperorship? Well, this whole idea of succession is clouded in mystery in Rome, because he bear in mind, there's no sort of precedent for passing power down under this new political system. And there's still this kind of mirage, this idea that they might return to the republic, that there isn't kind of a monarchical system that's set up here. And so Augustus hasn't been speaking kind of audibly to the people about having a successor at all. It's all kind of

slightly murky and clouded. His will names Tiberius as co-air with Livia. So he gets two-thirds of his property and it's very obvious from this that he is the air. But even so, Tiberius isn't certain of this, even himself. So he goes back to Rome after Augustus dies and he is named and he kind of accepts the fact that he is going to be the heir, but he doesn't really know what that means and he's not quite sure whether it's legitimate or not. And this is partly because there's mutinning along the Rhine, for example. There are people calling for Germanicus to be made, the next leader, rather than Tiberias. So he's not sure that his position is secure.

He immediately goes to the Senate. He wants the Senate to kind of tell him that it's all okay and that, you know, he is in charge. But he's also quite reluctant. I mean, we have quotes from him. He apparently says that, and before he comes to power, he says that governing the empire is going to be like holding a wolf by the ears. So I think there's a real sense of fear on his part of what he's inheriting. He's not quite sure whether it's legitimate that he is a successor at all. He wants the Senate to tell him.

We're told that the Senate is looking to him, looking for leadership. Again, this could be kind of biased in the sources that these people have become so kind of servile to the idea of having an emperor that they want him to come to power. But, I mean, the clinching bit of evidence here is the fact that we know that from Josephus, one of our historians, who's particularly right spells of the Jewish Jewish history. He actually counts back the rule from Tiberius' death. So it gives us the number of years, days and months that he ruled. And by his kind of calendar of events, Tiberius is only coming to power in mid-October. Augustus died in August.

So you've got about two months going by where he's kind of prevaricating. So there isn't this kind of smooth transition. And the sources really mislead us here. Livia is supposed to have made these two announcements. together that Augustus is dead and her son is emperor. It isn't quite so smooth. There seems to be a real period of kind of prevarication and uncertainty as well. And people figuring out what to do, but Tiberius ultimately does end up the man to succeed as the next emperor. I mean, do we know much then about once we get to October, let's say, he does start to kind of consolidate his control.

Does he target others straight away? Or does he promise to follow in the footsteps of Augustus and do the same things that he did? I think he wants to do things. very much his own way, which is bold. That's very bold. It's really bold. But bear in mind, yeah, he's a big boy now. He's 55. He thinks he can do it all.

Just past childhood. He's had a world of experience across the empire. He knows the empire very, very well. He's got a huge military record behind him. He's got triumphs. He's had essentially sole power to Augustus's before he died. He got given sort of tribunition power, which is one of the kind of power without office situation.

So he's kind of confident in himself. What he does, though, is he tries to defer to the Senate on as many issues as possible. So things like the placement of the legions, sort of buildings and things like that. He's referring to the Senate on quite a lot of things, which is interesting. It suggests a kind of step back. He also puts sort of elections of the magistrates, the key kind of governors of Rome, in the hands of the Senate, taking it away from the people somewhat. And Augustus, when we look back on his rule, I think what we really remember him for,

as well as these kind of like weird adultery laws and stuff it's his building program you know he's the one who claims to have found room made of brick and left it made of marble great quote great great great fantastic and you know it's true me he does reform a lot of the temples in particular there's a real kind of reform Tiberius isn't really interested in that

I mean he he reestablishes the temple of concord but that's like his main kind of piece really on a kind of political side so architectural side he seems to be doing things very different He doesn't seem to be very concerned with trying to please people. He cuts the pay of actors. He's not keen on putting on loads of public shows to try and endear people to him.

He even bans kissing, Tristan. I mean, like, killjoy. What happened nowadays, exactly. I mean, how did he manage to enforce that? That's quite something. And is this also a time beyond Imperium, Sine, Finé, like Empire Without Limits? Of course, you've had the disastrous Dutaberg Forest battle, Varus losing three legions in Germania, later years of Augustus.

But Tiberius has a rich military record behind him. Is he still interested in expanding the empire or not? Well, to look at what he actually did, he'd seem not. I mean, it seems that most of his military experience is actually before he becomes emperor. I mean, there's no great equivalent military campaign after he becomes emperor, which is really peculiar, isn't it? I mean, he seems to have really enjoyed that. What we read about him, he seems to be most comfortable when he's with his. the soldiers. He's a kind of man who likes to kind of get his hands dirty or his bottom

dirty even he's actually sort of said to be, I don't mean that. I mean that he likes to sit on the turf with his men eating lunch. I'm saying something's completely innocent. Okay. I'm not having toilet facilities out in the field. I came out really wrong. But you know, he's a kind of like down with the men, you know, type of figure. So you'd think that he'd be really desperate to get back onto his horse, you know, go through the provinces. He's seen vast victories over the Pannonians, the Dalmatians, he's won victories. He's very, very successful militarily. But he doesn't seem to be very desperate to reinstate this or kind of have some great victory

once he's emperor. Pannonians, Dalmatians, they are places in the Balkans, not dog breeds. Yes. Just what I say they're right as well. Yeah, and so how much do you think that this new direction from Tiberius, you know, now that he's emperor, want to do things. his own way, but not going back to the military sphere. How much of an influence do you think his mother has on all this? Well, the sources suggest a huge influence, which I don't quite

believe he seems to have a very difficult relationship with Livia, his mother, after he comes to power. She's getting on in years. I mean, bare a mind he's 55, we've said that several times already, but she's like really getting quite elderly. And the Senate are very, very respectful of her. She is their Augusta. She is the woman who they decide they want to. They want to name on monuments. Tiberius gets really cross when they put her name and his name side by side. He doesn't understand why she's having such a big kind of part in his public life. And I think so far so true, I kind of think there is probably a little bit of kind of conflict between the two of them over their kind of respecterous spheres of influence. One thing we do know about Tiberius,

he's not very comfortable with women being in power, particularly when it comes to Germanicus's wife, so Germanicus, his adopted son. His wife, Agrippina, is very happy there in Germany at the beginning. And, you know, Tiberius supposedly complains about there being nothing left for the generals to do when she's going around, assuming so many of the responsibilities that are usually taken by men. So, you know, he doesn't seem to be very comfortable per se with women in power. And I think with Livia, he feels slightly overshadowed by her and the fact that people are so respectful of her. So she suffers a fall when he doesn't go to her. And then when she actually dies, he dies in her mid-80s. He doesn't actually go to the funeral.

Wow. Oh, that's sad. But that's interesting if we kind of keep on that familial kind of links with Tiberius at the moment. You mentioned Germanicus there and his wife, Agrippina, because this feels one of the big, like early-ish events in his reign, which is how this all also comes tumbling down to another familial problem with this, well, what happens to Germanicus? Well, Germanicus, yes. I mean, Germanicus is a people's hero. He's, really, really, really popular. And he's a successful military man. He's been in Germany. He's been with Agrippina, their young children there, who include Caligula, by the way. Little Boots, that's how he gets his name. He gets given this little kind of military little

boots and all... Caliguanian. He's Gaius, that's his name. But he's called Caligula because of this. So they're a very popular family. And Tiberius seems to really support Germanicus. But then, rumours arise that he is responsible for his death. And this is because is Damanicus has been sent east, and Damanicus is looking after the army there, and Tiberius decides to put Pizzo, who is a former consul, he's served alongside him in the consulship, an old friend of his, he decides to send him to govern Syria. And these two men fall out spectacularly in the east. And Domenicus is making requests of Pizzo. He is his senior, so he asks for forces to be sent to Armenia, for example.

Pizzo just refuses to do it. He reverses so many of the things that are asked of him. And the situation becomes so bad between them that Germanicus actually renounces Pizzo's friendship. So all of this is said to sort of reflect back onto Tiberias. People are saying, well, maybe Tiberius really wanted to kind of knock Germanicus off his high horse. And so therefore he sent Pizzo out knowing that he would disagree with him. And this would kind of, you know, put some of the limelight back on to Tiberius rather than Damanicus. So he's jealous, I'm guessing. Yeah, which is quite difficult to see him.

AD 17, so two years before Germanicus dies, he wins a triumph and Tiberius arranges for money to be paid out to the women people in Germanic's name. This doesn't look like the action of someone who is inherently jealous of him. But it says a lot about people's wariness of Tiberius that they are so willing to indulge this theory that he is behind the fallout between him and Pizzo.

So what happens is Damanicus actually dies in the East. And he, as he is dying, says that he's been poisoned by Pizzo. Because admittedly, he has some really bizarre symptoms. I mean, we're told that he has weird bruising all over his body. We're told that he is frothing at the mouth. I mean, how do you explain that for a man who's in his 30s, in the prime of his life, he's healthy? How do you explain that? So Agrippina is absolutely distraught by this.

she sails back with his ashes, holding some of the children by the hands. There's huge outpouring of emotion in Rome, which Tiberius then makes the mistake of trying to quell. This is a bad move on Tiberius' part. You understand why he does it, because people are overturning altars, those public mourning in the streets, there's kind of civil unrest. And if there's one thing that Tiberius is, he is a stickler for discipline. And that begins with kind of military discipline.

But when he's emperor in Rome, he's putting garrisons around the city. he's stamping out foreign cults, any kind of disorder. He wants all of it out the way. He wants completely peaceful life, essentially. So he is upset by the outcry of emotion over Germanicus. The people's sympathy are very much with Agrippina and the family. And Tiberius says, okay, let's bring the trial to court. And he has it heard before the Senate. And Pizzo is found guilty. He's condemned, but he actually dies before he's punished. And Livia actually steps in. saves Pizzo's wife, Plankina, who is meant to be equally guilty. So it's really astonishing. So it's a really strange story. It's an AD-19. And it puts a real blot on that year.

The Tiberius has now lost one of his potential successes, as you say, the adored Germanicus and his family and lost quite a bit of, I guess kudos and reputation from it as well, from his handling of it. Something which was also interesting that you mentioned there was his bringing of troops into the city of Rome itself. So is this when we start getting the influence of the Praetorian Guard right at the centre of imperial control and the setting the creation of an actual camp for these soldiers in Rome? Yes. I mean, can you imagine the site of Rome

are completely changes? It suddenly looks like a completely different city as a result of this. There's a real kind of climate of, I think, anxiety and fear over this. And this is, as you say, largely the influence of the advisors that Tiberius has namely one particular advisor who is Sejanus. He is the prefect of the Praetorian Guard. He is a trusted member. He's been working with the Imperial family for about 15 years by this point. But he's quite a shady character. He is ruthless. He is ambitious. He really seems to have ambitions beyond his station. And he seems to be taking on an increasingly prominent role in terms of decision-making. If I have one criticism of Tiberius at this stage in his rule,

he's not very good at making decisions he kind of dithers a lot over what to do and Sejanus seems to be a lot more decisive and Tiberius comes to rely on him more and more So what then happens in these years I guess not the early 20s, Zedee I mean so Germanicus has gone

Livia dies is it 21 around that time? Around that time So Sejanus seems to be his main man in Rome so what do we know about Tiberius' rule during those early 20s? So it becomes embroiled and the sources gives a really good impression of this It comes embroiled in these treason trials.

So this great crime of this time is maestas in Latin, which means it's where we get our word majesty from. It's meant to be kind of crimes against this of the majesty of Rome and its people, but effectively it becomes kind of crimes against the emperor and his majesty. This has actually begun under Augustus. So this isn't a kind of invention of Tiberius that you have these trials for myesters. They've begun under Augustus. But the problem that arises, and this is partly linked to the fact that Tiberius seems to be so heavily reliant initially on the Senate, is you get growing corruption in the Senate, and you get people who are willing to inform on each other for Maestas, knowing that if they secure a successful conviction, that they are untitled to a proportion of the condemned property. Wow.

So senators start sort of almost spying on each other, looking around, trying to report each other for Maestas. It becomes scary, you know, it becomes quite frightening. And it becomes a tool really for Sir Janus in particular to purge the Senate of members who are kind of obstructing him. And also Agrippina as well. I mean, there's real sort of difficulty between Agrippina and Tiberius since she came back. Real sort of conflict between the two of them. And Sir Janus starts by accusing a lot of her friends of treason. So she's seen people going down around her.

And she has these two sons who are called Nero and Jusus. Sorry, I've got another other juices. All those names. And initially, Tiberius starts to sort of raise these boys up. You know, he kind of admits them to the Senate. They look like possible, viable, you know, part of his future. But Sejana starts to spread rumors that Agrippina is hungry for power. And he invents something called the party of Agrippina.

He said there are people gathering around her and that there could be civil war unless he do something about her sort of dominance within Rome. So she becomes the kind of a victim of all of this. And her downfall is really, really dire. You're looking at me once you more. Yeah, of course. You can't leave it there. I think, hang on a ring.

Well, I mean, it happens after Tiberius' laparome. Oh, okay, right. So it comes a little bit later. But what happens is he, Tiberius gets completely ground down by Sir Jonas complaining about her becoming kind of haughty. Tiberius then writes a letter and he denounces her for her arrogant and haughty mouth

he says that she is intent on going over to the legions in Germany and getting support there and seeking refuge there and then he denounces her eldest son Nero for sexual depravity whatever that means at that point and then Jews

public I think probably right? It's probably the extended it so he's sent off into exile Agrippina is sent off into exile in the meantime she is actually beaten up by a centurion She loses an eye. I mean, this is absolutely foul. This is horrible. And Jusus, the younger son, is imprisoned.

And he's starved. And we're told that he actually eats the contents of his mattress so that he can stay alive. And he manages about eight days before he also dies. So this is really, I mean, Tiberius blamed Sajanus for this. Later, he says that, you know, Sir Janus is really attacking the family Vagrapina, which I kind of think was slightly hiding behind Sajanus at that point.

His indecision going forward or being losing. into believing Sir Janus, quite frankly. And Poreau Caligula, he's the one left, isn't he? Which doesn't bode well for what happens next. There is another important family figure who we need to talk about before Tiberius's retreat. once again linked to Sejanus, which is, of course, one of his sons, adopted sons, Germanicus, is out the picture, but he still had another son at that time, didn't he? Another Drus.

Another Drus. Another Drus. But his fate gets entwined with Sir Janus and it doesn't end well. No, it's really, really difficult because Jus is married. He has his own son who's called Tiberius Gamalus. Okay, back to Tiberius there. That's called Gamelas. Okay, Gamelis.

Or gemalus, whatever you want to call him. And Jususus is really. the hopes for the future for Tiberius, really, at that point. But Ruma then begins to spread gradually that his wife is plotting against him and that she's having an affair with Sajanus. It's the one and only Sajanus. I know. And so, I mean, this is absolutely devastating because what happens is, Jesus is still very young and he dies in 23 BC. And Tiberius, as far as Tiberius is concerned at that point, it's a natural death. He seems to be ill. And there's no kind of suspicious.

about it. I mean, he's devastated by this, but it seems to be one of those things, you know, there's another death in the family. It's only a little time later, like a couple of years later, that he begins to learn that actually this wasn't a natural death, that Sir Janus was behind the death of Drus. And, I mean, the source for this seems to be Sir Jonas's own wife, Epicarta. He seems to, obviously, she's got a bit of an axe to grind, her husband's having an affair with this woman, Livila, who is married to Drus. So how sort of trust-worthy this is, we don't know. But it says a lot, I think, about the character of Sejanus and also the character of Tiberius,

that Tiberius believes that Sajanus is behind the death of Jus. And this really tips him over the edge. And I think this is responsible for a huge change in personality that we see in Tiberius at this stage. Is this the change that is epitomized by the year 26 AD? It is. What is it? AD 26. Tiberius, I would say, and it's always difficult to try and diagnose people with any kind of

illness or mental illness, you know, when you're looking back from our points into the ancient past. But I would say that Tiberius seems to suffer from a mental breakdown. He decides to leave Rome. He goes off to Capri, the island of Capri. And he seems to be suffering from paranoia at this stage. He chooses Capri partly because it is so well isolated. It's surrounded by rocks. There are cliffs. He can live high up in a palace, surrounded with a very good kind of natural security. There's only one bay that people can come in by. So he feels kind of safe there. And as we've seen, he's gone off to roads earlier in his career. It's not the first time he's disappeared from the public eye. He's done it again, but he intends to do it for good. He's, he's

quite old at this point. He's in his mid to late 60s. He is kind of stooped. He's exhausted, and he seems to turn to drinking. And what we read often, his early life. He seems to be quite a abstemious kind of chap. You know, he's not one for big feasting or drinking. A military man, right? You know, the discipline vibe. Exactly. He's disciplined. We don't redefelt him being a kind of real

gourmand or being, you know, a real kind of lagerout. Not that headlock. Not the headlock, but he's not that type of guy, you know. But suddenly he's drinking very, very heavily. So he seems to be sort of descending into alcoholism, into paranoia. He's having some kind of breakdown. He's on

the island. And he's just, he's so paranoid that, I mean, there's a great story that comes up. Are you thinking of the crab and the fish? I'm thinking of the crab and the fish. I love the crab and the fish story. So there's a fisherman who catches this enormous, I think it's a mullet, and he decides to bring it to Tiberius and kind of make a gift of it to him. But in order to do so, he actually clambes up all of these rocks to reach the palatial home that Tiberius has himself up in. And Tiberius is so astounded that this man has managed to essentially breach his security, you know, by reaching him, that he decides to slap him around the face with the fish instead. And I mean, this is

really Monty Python, isn't it? I mean, like, it really is, like before it's time. But then you have the man, this poor man, thinking, you know, I just want to give you a present, you know, dude, what are you doing? He's like, thank goodness. And it's not, it's not just the slapstick of slapping around the face. It's like the scales, isn't it? And so the flesh is ripped off the fisherman's body. So it's not just that. Yeah, I'm making this sound more humorous than it is. I mean, here I am filling in the glory details. But you know, you know, it's, it's, it's, It is horrific. It's horrific.

But the man, the fishman, poor fisherman, he actually says, thank goodness I didn't give you the crab that I caught earlier. And then Tiberius is like, right, crab, crab. And then, like, he gets the kind of whip around with the crab as well. So this poor man. And he's just trying to give him a present. I mean, this is terrible. That is the Monty Python line, though, isn't it?

Thank goodness I didn't bring the crab as well. And it's the one thing you don't say. I guess we should mention the other part of this story, which is this idea that, you know, Capri does become an ancient Epstein Island equivalent, quite frankly, and it's like paedophilia as well. And as difficult as it is, we should mention it because it's another key part of the rumours that really gain a lot of traction, the longer that he stays in Capri. This is really grim.

Yeah, this also is a horrible on this. I mean, we have a lot of kind of descriptions of the fact that Capri is so kind of secretive, so it lends itself to this kind of rumor and this kind of report. There's a lot of woodland, and we're told that Tiberius was dressing up kind of young boys and girls in kind of as nymphs and his like pan, he's kind of the woodland god, he's getting boys to just kind of swim with him and kind of nibble him and like it's, you know, I don't want to go into your detail. It's just, it's gross. I mean, it's really, really horrible. I mean, there's a kind of like slightly lighter side to it. He said to do his house up with lots of

kind of artistic art. And I think my favorite bit is the only bit I can kind of laugh at amid all of this is he's meant to have an erotic library. And the way that this is explained in one the sources, I think it's Tastas, says that he had these books which showed you kind of sexual positions. And it's just in case he had someone there to have kind of sex in front of him and they didn't know what to do. He could then get a library book down and show him how it was done. I just think it's just so weird. Anyway, so it's really difficult one. How much of this do we believe? I mean, it's really, really, really hard to know. I mean, I'm not making an excuse for him, but what I am trying to do is to try to explain his change of personality when I say that

I think he is sort of mentally, he's in a very, very deep depression. He has been completely not for six by this news about his son and his death. I think he is an alcoholic. He seems to be drinking all day. And I think he just doesn't seem to be completely in control in the way that he has been throughout his life. That obviously doesn't forgive his behaviour, which is horrible. And it's just, it's hard to know whether all of it is true

or there's this kind of people making stuff up. I kind of think he's, you know, in mid-60s, is he really up to having all that sex? It's all kind of mainly voyeuristic. It's very, very difficult to know. Yeah, very much so. So when does he decide that he does actually need to think about a successor? Surprisingly late. I mean, already in his kind of mid-60s is left at quite late, hasn't he, really.

What happens is he is sent over Gaius, who is the son of Damanicus, he's the surviving. So he's the future Caligula. He's a teenager. He's scathed beyond recognition from everything that's happened to his family since he's been a baby. Yeah, he's another one who's had a really disastrous kind of upbringing, really horrible. And in his teenage years, he's said to have sex with his sisters and, you know, it's like really horrible. So if you've already got a troubled young man and they're going to send him to Capri to be with Tiberius, I mean, not the best kind of idea at that point.

So really, really quite difficult. But he seems to spend a lot of time there with Tiberius. So it's looking more and more that he's going to be made a successor. And what Tiberius ultimately does is he lines him up together with Tiberius Gamelis, the grandson, to be his kind of joint heirs. And I guess maybe one, maybe a small victory that we can also talk about here is Sir Janus' crimes do finally catch up with him in the meantime. They do.

I mean, he thinks they probably had already. Yeah, he's been in Rome. He's been running everything. And, well, Tiberius actually accuses him of treason. So it comes to comes back. And I mean, it's horrible. He has him killed. He has his son hanged.

He has his daughter raped and hanged. And their bodies are rolled down the steps of Rome into the river. So that's the ending for them. And I think for the Romans it's very difficult. Was it a sigh of relief? I think they're feeling very kind of vulnerable to people in Rome at this point. They feel like they've been completely abandoned by Tiberius. And the really difficult thing is Tiberius, I think this is the sort of

great mistake he makes, really, is he lets everything go. You know, he's tried so hard, and particularly across the empire, so many of his kind of early military advantages are kind of undone. And he just, he leaves everyone in power for too long. You know, he leaves governors in power for years and years and years. There's no kind of change around of staff. And when you have that happening across the empire, you're bound to have a growth of corruption. I mean, Pontius pilot is one of the guys. I think he's, he's, oh, is he kind of nine years, I think. Ponti Pee. Yeah, he's around that time. He's the 30s. Of course he's the 30s. He's left in power for nine years. I mean, come on. I mean, like this just seems to be happening all over the place.

He just doesn't seem to switch people around. He's just kind of completely let go. And obviously, Rome is going to descend, the empire's going to descend into chaos at that point. He just becomes completely absent. He doesn't care at it or as you say, maybe that complete mental breakdown. So it's really not a good final few years for Tiberius. How does it all end? Well, he gets the age of, I think he's about 76. Okay. Is that right, 8037? Yeah. So, and he is supposedly kind of living it up still in Capri. And there are kind of rumours. He seems to get a chill. He seems to have a pain in his side, but he seems to try and carry on. You know, like great old sort of military spirit stays with him. He tries to kind of persevere in spite of it all. And he actually, we read of him kind of going to an arena and kind of throwing a javelin at a boar, you know, even though he's like dying. Seventy-seven throwing a javelin, okay, deft. Yeah, he seems to still be, you know, fighting and okay.

But then he feels very, very unwell at Mycenum, so in the Bay of Naples, and he dies there. And there is sort of, there are various suggestions. One of the sources suggests that maybe Caligula helped to finish him off at the end. With a pillow or something like that. Yeah, exactly. And that he kind of fell just next to his bed and died there. We don't really know for sure how he died. But, you know, he's lived a ripe old age for that time.

Yes, hasn't he? especially also considering that he only became emperor when he was in his mid-50s. Yeah. And so he rules for some 20 years. On the larger scale of it, we've largely focused on Tiberius, the man. But if we focus on, like, Tiberius, the reign, and almost kind of take him out of it, how successful do you actually think the reign is in the whole story of the forming of the Roman Empire? What, the funny thing is, he might be a kind of disaster on the page when you read about him, you know, as you say, as a man in the sources.

but actually he left Rome in quite a strong position and it was quite wealthy I mean people were doing quite well it wasn't left you know in the doldrums in terms of the financial strength the economy of Rome was actually flourishing and that's probably partly because he hadn't had any great military campaign during his rule he was able to kind of preserve money in that way there are also stories of him of extracting money from wealthy men and women actually across the provinces as well so financially Rome's quite stable they have felt quite sort of rudderless within the city. I think they're kind of, you know, wanting a better, a better leader. But Rome isn't as messy as you'd think, I think, when you actually

read the description of him actually disappearing for so long on Capri. You know, there is a lot of kind of mire in terms of the treason trials and the mess of sojournus and there's a lot of kind of ill feeling resulting out of that. But actually, it's fairly stable and prosperous. Last of all, How do you think we should remember Tiberius today? I think much earlier in his rule, he was a great military figure. You know, I think, yes, he was kind of propelled to power because of the family that he found himself in. But actually, he did a lot of his own bat. You know, he achieved things militarily that other people had not achieved.

He was respected in that sphere. And I kind of think he was very, very capable. He was a man of discipline. He was not outgoing. He was not this kind of affable, likable character like Germanicus or so many of the other players around him. He seems to have been very introspective, very reserved, and because of that, people had great uncertainty of like where he was, what he was thinking. So I kind of imagine him as a kind of quieter figure, but someone who was actually capable, but who really suffered after the death of his son and descended into something like tyranny. Daisy, it's been absolutely fascinating

to listen to you, talk through all of this. The story of Tiberius is a fascinating one with all of those tales that survive from the grim ones to the really interesting ones also regarding his military career and his pre-emperorship career. Thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast and explain it all to us.

Oh, my pleasure. Well, there you go. There was my good friend Dr. Daisy Dunn returning to the podcast to talk through the story of Tiberius. the Emperor Tiberius. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Thank you for listening. Please follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. If you'd also be kind enough to leave us a rating as well,

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