The Ancients - Homosexuality & Ancient Greece

Episode Date: December 9, 2021

Frederick the Great, Marie Antoinette and Oscar Wilde. Each of them have talked about, or been talked about in terms of, Ancient Greek ideas of homosexual love. From men taking on young apprentices, to Sappho’s yearning poetry, the Ancient Greek traditions have long been called upon in conversation as a background to contemporary celebrations of love between members of the same sex, but what is the truth to these stories. We are thrilled to welcome Alastair Blanshard, Paul Eliadis Chair of Classics and Ancient History at the University of Queensland, back to the Ancients to talk us through the concept and truth of Greek love, and its ripples through history.

Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. And in today's podcast, well, it is a big topic because we're going to be talking all about homosexuality and ancient Greece. In particular, we're going to be focusing in on this idea of Greek love.

We're going to be looking at figures such as Plato and how he describes it and the reception of Greek love by other cultures down through the centuries. We're going to be looking at the reception of Greek love in ancient Rome, in the medieval period, in the Renaissance, in the Enlightenment, and even down to the Victorian period with figures such as Oscar Wilde. And what's really striking as you listen to this episode is how closely entwined ancient Greece has been with homosexuality and thoughts on homosexuality down through the centuries, almost up to the present day and the late 20th century. Now, to talk through all of this, I was delighted to get back on the podcast Professor Alistair Blanchard from the University of Queensland in Brisbane, Australia. Alistair, the name might ring a bell. He was on the podcast recently to talk all about sexual fantasies about the Greco-Roman

world. He sorted the fact from the fiction about the Roman orgy, about naked statues in ancient Greece, and also about why there are so many phallus symbols everywhere in Pompeii. Alistair, always a pleasure to have him on the podcast. And without further ado, here he is to talk about homosexuality and ancient Greece. Alistair, welcome back for another podcast on the ancients. It's always great to see you. Thank you very much. Now, Greek love, ancient Greece, and I've seen you mention this in your book as well, it seems to have this central place in the, shall we say, the creation of modern homosexuality.

Yes. You know, if you want to talk about the story of homosexuality, particularly in the West, you've got to start with Greece. Greece becomes the place where people always choose to begin their story. It's the place that people keep returning to whenever they want to think through ideas relating to homosexuality. It keeps on cropping up time and time again. And forgive me, it seems quite a simple question, but I think I need to ask this right at the start. What is Greek love? So Greek love becomes a term that takes off really under the Romans and then goes on and it's picked up in the 18th and 19th century to refer to a kind of homosexuality which is designed to be morally pure, is designed to be socially acceptable. It's the kind of socially acceptable face of homosexuality. So it's designed

to have this idea that it is in some ways spiritually uplifting and morally improving, as opposed to a sort of transitory physical kind of homosexuality, which is debasing and degrading. Let's go to ancient Greece first of all, then. What forms could Greek homosexual relations take? So, you know, homosexuality is acceptable within the Greek world, and it takes a variety of forms. So we know that, for example, there are male prostitutes in Athens that you can buy their time and services for transitory sex. We know that, for example, in certain cultures, you know, homosexuality seems to play an important role in terms of

initiating boys into men. So boys might be abducted, taken off into the wild and live with another man for a certain period of time. So there were all sorts of varieties of homosexual activity taking place in the ancient Greek world. And within that kind of plethora of homosexual liaisons, certain kinds come to the fore. So in Athens, it particularly becomes highly codified. So in Athens, homosexual liaisons tend to take the form of a young boy on the cusp of adolescence being courted by an older man. The boy eventually after an extensive courtship would then give way to the older man's advances. They would have a relationship largely exclusive for a period of a couple of years maybe until the boy had progressed from kind of adolescence into manhood, at which point they would then part ways.

And that boy themselves, having become a man, may then take a younger lover. So that tends to be the form of socially accepted homosexuality that takes place in Athens, very codified and very ritualized. Do you know why there regularly seem to be this asymmetry of ages in these relationships? Yeah. So this has often puzzled academics and scholars of homosexuality. Why is this relationship so asymmetric? And I guess the issue is to do with the idea that there should be a dominant partner and a submissive partner. And if you're a citizen, a person who is exercising, for example, democratic rights in Athens, making governmental decisions, it's considered rather poor form to also be a submissive partner in a relationship. And so what we tend to find is that

this asymmetry in homosexual relationships actually maps on rather neatly to an asymmetry in terms of political power. So the older man is the citizen, the younger boy doesn't have citizen rights, they can't speak in the assembly, they can't vote, therefore they tend to be the more submissive member in a relationship. And this asymmetry, of course, maps on very neatly to heterosexual relationships as well. So, for example, of course, maps on very neatly to heterosexual relationships as well. So, for example, we see that women are excluded from the assembly and are often much younger than their husbands. So in standard age of marriage in Athens, you know, the man is about 30, the woman is just on the cusp of puberty. So again, that kind of asymmetry in age maps onto

how heterosexual relationships are structured as well. And just before we go on to the reception of Greek love through these different ages, one thing which struck me with your book, and I've got it in my notes here, is the version that is the Platonic version of homosexual relations. I mean, could you unpack this and explain what this is? Yeah, absolutely. Very happy to do this because, in fact, it's Plato's version of homosexuality and what makes a good homosexual relationship that becomes the dominant and most influential model. Now, we need to start with the principle that Plato is an oddball. So the vision that he presents of homosexuality is not in accordance with how

homosexuality is viewed by the rest of Athens. People may have read his texts and thought, well, that sounds like quite a good idea. But it's not the case that what he's describing is how homosexuality happened on the ground, as it were, in Athens. What he's presenting is a very idiosyncratic, very romanticized version of homosexuality that is in totally accordance with his own particular kind of philosophic agenda. And so what Plato does is that he co-opts homosexual relationships and puts them in the service of his philosophy. So what he does is that he uses homosexuality as a way of doing platonic philosophy. So what he says is, you know, that the aim of a homosexual relationship should not be about providing mutual pleasures for

partners, which is in fact what most Greeks and Athenians would have thought actually a homosexual relationship was about. Actually, the purpose of a homosexual relationship is for one person to educate another. And in particular, that education had to have a certain aim. And that aim was that you would better understand the nature of the good and the beautiful. So what he does is he takes a homosexual relationship and he puts in the service of his philosophy. And he does this in a number of texts. He does this in three texts in particular. He does it in the Lysas, in the Phaedrus, and most famously in the Symposium. And in each of those texts, what he does is he makes homosexual relationships do work. Being a homosexual lover in Plato's

version is rather exhausting. You never really kind of get to have any fun. All you're trying to do is try to morally improve yourself. So, you know, in the Lysas, it's all about how you should co-opt friendship to make yourself a better person. In the Phaedrus, it's all about using a homosexual relationship to leave this bodily realm and go and ascend to the gods and become one with the perfect. Most famously in the Symposium, he talks about how homosexual relationships should be a kind of reproduction. So he says that there are two ways to reproduce yourself. So you can reproduce yourself through heterosexual sex, sex with a woman, and that will produce a child. And that child will be a bit like you. But it's a kind of imperfect form

of reproduction. And for him, this is all about how do you become immortal? So one way to become immortal is to have children. But he says there's a much better way to do that. And that is, in fact, to educate someone, to implant not a body in another person, but to implant an idea or a form of education. And that way, you kind of replicate yourself in the mind of education. And that way you kind of replicate yourself in the mind of another. And so through education, you can, as it were, achieve immortality. And so that's how you achieve

the most perfect form of immortality because unlike a child, which is only a sort of imperfect version of you, actually by educating someone, you can transmit your ideas perfectly into the mind of another person so that they almost become a clone of you, actually, by educating someone, you can transmit your ideas perfectly into the mind of another person, so that they almost become a clone of you. And that's what he thinks homosexual relationship should be about, is transforming the person into a kind of mini you. So it's the worst bit of relationship advice, right? Everyone else says you should always never

try and change someone. Plato is totally the diverse. He wants to completely change you and make you into a kind of mini Plato. So that's the first thing that he thinks homosexual relationships should do, is that they should all be about education. And for him, the sex is really secondary. So he's very dismissive of the sex. We use the phrase platonic love, meaning as it were, asexual love. Now, it's not clear, actually, in Plato whether Plato is completely anti-sex, but certainly for him it's a very second order thing. So there may be some sexual pleasures attached, but really that's not what you should be having a homosexual relationship for. So that's the first thing, is it's about kind of education. The other thing is that he thinks that homosexual relationships are very good for teaching you about what is the good and the beautiful. And this is his famous description of what he calls climbing the ladder of love.

And what he says is this, that essentially you fall in love with someone and you're totally passionate about them. But what you realize over time is actually it's not the person you're involved in or in love with, it's actually the qualities that they have. So whether it's their kindness, whether it's their generosity, whether it's their sense of humor. And then what you realize is, in fact, actually those kinds of qualities, kindness, generosity, sense of humor, can be found in other people. And so you realize, in fact, actually, it's not the person that you're loving, it's the qualities. And then over time, you realize that actually, in fact, all of those qualities are really reflections of a more abstract quality, which is the notion of the good and then the beautiful.

And so what you do is through an increasing idea of abstraction, move from individuals to class of individuals to abstract ideas, till eventually you realize that actually what you've always loved all the time was the good and the beautiful. And that all that you were seeing in the eyes of the person you love was really the way the good and beautiful was reflected in them. And so that's why he thinks homosexual relationships should be encouraged, because eventually they will be a good learning tool for getting you to understand what is the good and the beautiful. So he's very instrumentalist in terms of how he thinks about homosexual relationships. It's so interesting. Thank you for unpacking that, by the way, Alistair. But as you say, if Plato was this oddball at that time in Athens,

but nevertheless, this version, it does get passed down to the Romans. Yes, absolutely. And I think it's because what it does is that it makes you at least feel very good about the sexual pleasures that you're having. Right. So what Plato does is, as it were, kind of gives you a sort of noble aim for your base pleasures. And so it becomes a very influential idea. And, you know, it also becomes a justification as well. Why do I do this? Well, actually, it's because I'm making myself a better person by chasing these beautiful boys. So that's a very convenient fiction. And there's always, in fact, a bit of cynicism about Plato, whether, you know, in fact, actually Plato really was as chaste as he claimed, whether this wasn't all, in fact, an elaborate

cover or front for what these days we would call grooming, in fact, that there wasn't, in fact, a sort of darker side to this Platonic version, that it was never as noble as Plato claimed. But, you know, I see no reason not to take Plato on face value and say, look, actually, I think he genuinely believed that actually this was the way forward. But it proved to be a very influential and important idea. Yes. So Alistair, so how do the Romans, what is the Roman reception to this idea? How does it become, shall we say, attached to Roman culture? Yes. Yeah. So again, particularly when the Romans go and conquer Greece,

they're encountering these forms of relationship, which were different to the kinds of homosexual relationships that one saw in Rome prior to the conquest of Greece. There was, in fact, an indigenous form of homosexuality that was local to the Roman people. But what we see is that this idea gets grafted on. And so this idea of kind of Greek homosexuality, Greek love becomes imported to Rome. And so it takes off in Rome and becomes, as it were, a kind of acceptable way of justifying homosexual relationships. But when does that start to change? So there are a number of causes to change. First of all, I think, although it arrives in Rome,

there's always a certain anxiety about it, partly because Rome is always concerned about foreign influence and loss of Roman-ness. And this seems to be a marker of a kind of diminution, a kind of dilution of Roman values. So there's always some sort of anxiety about it. I think also people become cynical about whether it's really as noble as it's claimed. I think also the other thing that has always been problematic about homosexual relationships is that in theory, you have a sort of older dominant partner and a more submissive younger partner. But actually, in practice,

the dynamic is rarely like that. And often, in fact, the younger partners seem to have a lot more power and a lot more sway than they should. So what you have is, for example, older men behaving foolishly for kind of beautiful young boys. They're lovesick. They're debasing themselves. They're describing themselves as they're slaves to these lovers. They're wasting their patrimony on beautiful boys. They're lovesick. And so, in fact, there's something vaguely emasculating about this dynamic. So in practice, there's some concerns about the way the relationships are behaving. And then if we go on to then the arrival of Christianity, though, Alistair, how does this very much affect the Roman reception of Greek love?

Well, Christianity, of course, is a major break in terms of the treatment of homosexuality. So concerns in particular about homosexuality, the relationship between homosexuality and sin take off. And again, you know, this is a way that the Christians can mark themselves out as different. So they don't indulge in homosexual activity just in the same way that they don't, for example, eat sacrificial meat. And I think, you know, I want to put those two together because I think, you know, it's easy to get overly caught up in ideas of sex in the body without realizing that, in fact, actually saying I'm not going to indulge in homosexuality is really about a kind of identity politics or a way of marking yourself out as different, but that it's part of a program of marking yourself out as different. So I'm not going to pray to the gods. I'm not going to pray to the emperor. I'm not going to eat sacrificial meat. I'm not going to indulge in homosexuality. So it's a part of a whole sequence of claims that

you're making about yourself being different. And I think it's good to put homosexuality and the rejection of homosexuality within that kind of register. It almost feels like a sacred oath you were making if you were joining Christianity, if that was put in that kind of bracket. Yes. As I say, it's, as it were, part of the identity of being a Christian. And it's about a look, it's about a style, it's about a lifestyle, as well as being a series of theological beliefs as well. And as we move on, therefore, into the Middle Ages, what discourse do we have for Greek love during this time? So during the medieval period,

we largely see it disappearing, particularly from the West. What happens is that particularly texts like Plato, for example, disappear from the West. So there are very few of the texts that are circulating in Latin translation, for example. The number of people who are familiar with Greek is really tiny in the West in this period. So Plato gets forgotten. In particular, I think the other thing that sort of is unfortunate for Plato is that, of course, he's always overshadowed by Aristotle. And so Aristotle exists in a billion different kinds of Latin translations. People are very familiar with Aristotle. So there's a sense in which kind of you've got Aristotle, why do you need Plato? So Plato gets, in a sense, slightly

forgotten. There are certain Platoic texts, the Craton, for example, which continues, but really there isn't a huge amount of Plato in the medieval period. Where that changes is, in fact, with the fall of Byzantium and the arrival of Greek back into the West. And in particular, at some of the early big theological meetings, there are a number of Greeks who come across from Byzantium to Italy, particularly Florence, also Rome. And they are figures who are very well versed in Plato. They know their Plato and they reintroduce the Platonic texts to the West. And this new kind of story, these new kinds of texts take off so that people go mad for them. And in particular, what these Platonic teachers realize is that there's a huge audience for people who want to hear about Plato. And once Byzantium falls, or even when in fact Byzantium's in problems,

they realize that they can make a living for themselves in the West pushing Plato. And so we see the rise of these kind of traveling Platonic teachers who are attaching themselves to the papal court. They're attaching themselves to prominent cardinals, rulers of various city-states in Italy. And they're entertaining people with their lectures on Plato. It's this way that the texts, the Platonic texts, the Phaedrus, the Symposium, get reintroduced into the Western people, as I say, go crazy for them. And being reintroduced and people going crazy for Manastir, did that also spring-roots new the opportunity for these texts and for aspects of Greek love to be debated

again? Absolutely. Because, of course, what happens is there are already a few teachers who are less than happy about these arrivals of these jobbing Platonists who seem to be drawing the crowds, getting all the plum paper positions. So they push back. And so they say, well, look, actually, let's have a look at these texts and see, are they really the kinds of things that we should be encouraging? And as a result, Greek love becomes one of the lightning rods for discussion, because these texts seem to be promoting a morality and a kind of homosexuality that is deeply antithetical to the morality of the contemporary period. And so what the Platonic teachers do is they say, oh, look, you've misunderstood these texts. And they lean very heavily on the kind of educational,

philosophic development side of things that Plato was pushing. So Plato's idea that this isn't about physical love, this is actually about making your spirit and soul better. They really turn the volume up on that in their interpretations of Plato. So they start saying, well, look, actually, this Greek love is really a kind of spiritual form of love. And it's like the love that Christ has for the church or God has for the world. That's how you should understand it when Plato talks about love. So they really make Plato's version of homosexuality very anti-the body, very anti-physical pleasure, much more about philosophic development. I mean, Alistair, I was going to say, when looking at the geographical location of where this is all taking place, Italy, the heart of the Catholic Church at that time, it's so interesting that these discussions would have happened there.

Yeah, absolutely. Of course, what Plato has going for him and probably the reason why Plato succeeds is of course that Plato uniquely in the ancient world is one of the people who really has a very strong idea about the immortality of the soul. So central to Platonic philosophy is this idea that we all have this immortal soul,

and this immortal soul was at one point one with the divine, and that we're now on this earth, and that the whole point is to get rid of this earth and go back to be one with the divine. Now, that is a very appealing idea to Christianity. It doesn't require much tweaking to make that in alignment with Christian theology. And indeed, one suspects that Christian theology actually was very influenced by Plato. So that's the main reason, I think, why Plato proves to be acceptable. And then also this strong idea that, in a sense, to see these stories as sexual is a reflection on your own kind of poverty of soul. So that this idea that to the virtuous, things will only appear virtuous. And, you know, if you're

base or corrupt, well, of course, you'll see these stories as base or corrupt. So that, for example, a classic case, you talk about, you know, homosexuality, Plato at the center of the church. Well, you know, what could be more central to Catholicism than St. Peter's? And yet, if you go to St. Peter's and go to, in fact, one of the very famous bronze doors, as you enter into St. Peter's, on one of the side, you will see an image of Zeus and Ganymede. They're carved into the very church itself. Zeus and Ganymede. They're carved into the very church itself. Now, this is, you know, one of the great gay love stories of antiquity, right? You know, Zeus, as described in Homer,

falls in love with this young Trojan prince, this beautiful boy, Ganymede. In the form of an eagle, he comes down, takes him up to Mount Olympus, where he makes Ganymede act as his cup bearer. Now this is a story that is laden with homoerotic tensions and homoerotic desire and yet one can see it illustrating a church door. Now how did it get there? What's the story? Well the story behind this is that the story becomes allegorized by the church so that they see this as God's love for the world coming down in the form of an eagle and rescuing this beautiful soul and taking him back up to heaven. So this story, which is as gay as it comes, suddenly gets reworked as this amazing story about God's redemptive power on mortal man. And as a result, you can put Ganymede and Zeus in the center of the Catholic Church.

There are stories to tell, myths to explore, legends that shaped the medieval world to captivate the imagination. I'm Matt Lewis, and with my co-host, Dr. Kat Jarman, I've gone medieval. We're waiting here for you to join us. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and let everyone know that you've gone medieval with History Hits. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. Alistair, it's so interesting when you compare or contrast pre-fall of byzantium to post-fall of byzantium renaissance medieval saint thomas aquinas with something like this

how views how perspectives changed and arguably changed quite quickly yeah absolutely now there was always a pushback so it's not the case that you know these texts arrived and everyone suddenly was embracing platonic love this This was a highly contested, highly debated maneuver. And, you know, there were a lot of people who said, no, no, Plato is morally corrupting. And indeed, the anti-Plato forces were pretty strong. So that, for example, they persecuted Platonic teachers. There was the case of a teacher was accused of poisoning his students so there was a pushback against them and one sees these pushbacks coming in waves time and time again as moralists seize this kind of platonic influence and try and push back against it but

they never succeed in getting rid of it and i think that's the important thing because it always has this fundamental ambiguity is this really about physical pleasure or is this about in fact spiritual development and because you can't quite pin it one way or the other it kind of always gets a pass now just before we move on from the renaissance i must also ask about donatello and michelangelo's both of their david, because Alistair, these statues, do they play an important role also in this resurgence of Greek love of the Platonic version at this time too? Yeah, absolutely. Because in fact, the Donatello David is a fascinating work because it is probably the first important nude statue that we see in the Renaissance, you know, fantastic bronze.

And David is portrayed as a highly desirable sexual young man. I mean, if it was a piece of classical art, you would describe him as a kind of pinup boy. I mean, he's a kind of homosexual fantasy made real. And so Donatello is working with this tradition. He's clearly influenced, been influenced by this tradition. And so in addition to, as it were, the ancient world providing a kind of philosophy and intellectual justification for homosexuality, what it's also doing, particularly through its idolization of the beautiful male body, is also providing an aesthetics for homosexual appreciation and homosexual desire. So artists who are attracted by the male body, by the potential of the male form to encapsulate beauty, find in the works of antiquity a model or a pattern they can adopt.

And so we see that with Donatello, we see it most notably with Michelangelo, artists responding to the homoerotic tensions that we see running through classical art. Classical art becomes a model that you can turn to if you want to create the desirable male form. Well, there you go. Is that quite a link back to our previous podcast about these sexual fantasies, how this is an example where actually a naked statue has got sex more attached to it, shall we say? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So we now project our stories or our fantasies about this. I mean, again, one suspects that also the artists

themselves are playing with this ambiguity. So particularly with an artist like Michelangelo, he can famously do drawings of Ganymede, Zeus and Ganymede, give them to a young man who he's clearly attracted to. But, you know, is it, as it were, the story of the soul being saved by God's love? Or is it, in fact, a kind of love note to someone under the code of classical mythology? a kind of love note to someone under the code of classical mythology. It's probably both. And the fact that it can be both, I think, is part of the attraction utility of this material. All right, Alistair, let's move on then to the Enlightenment quickly. The reception of Greek love during this time period, what happens? Go. Right, okay. So I guess what we see in the Enlightenment is a pushback against the rise of clericalism, the rise of the church, and a kind of pushback against this kind of morality

that the church has been pushing. And as a result, you know, people are looking for new models. And again, Plato seems to be a really useful model, because there is an ethics there. It's an ethics that seems acceptable. And so you can adopt it. So even if you're sort of anti the church, you can at least sort of go along with Plato. And so we see Platonic texts being picked up. But also, you know, with the Enlightenment and then going on forward into the 19th century, And then going on forward into the 19th century, what we're also starting to see is figures who are identifying as homosexual or figures who are identifying as having a strong same-sex attraction, even if that's not their only exclusive form of attraction, looking for models for themselves, trying to find themselves. And in doing so, they turned back to antiquity. And antiquity, they seem to find as it were a history for themselves, a kind of genealogy. And so we see, I guess, the beginnings of people kind of starting to write what we might call gay histories, or at least getting some gay genealogy together.

So we're starting to see names put together of famous gays from antiquity put together. I mean, because on the one hand, if you're talking like the titans from this period, Alistair, associated with this, on the one hand, you've got figures such as Frederick the Great of Prussia. But on the other hand, you've got someone like Marie Antoinette, too. Absolutely. And again, two important figures who are themselves finding in antiquity models for their own way of being. And this is the problem is if you are a new Titanic figure, how do you mark yourself out as different? But where do you go for your inspiration? And the antique past seems to it.

So, for example, as you say with Frederick, what one sees in him is a desire to try and find a vocabulary, a way of being for these kind of intense male friendships. And he finds it in the stories of Orestes and Pilates. He finds it in Zeus and Ganymede. He finds it in all sorts of famous stories of antiquity of lovers. And so this becomes a model for him. The case of Marie Antoinette is kind of interesting because there, in fact, what seems to be happening is, in fact, models from antiquity are in fact imposed on her. So we have, for example, a number of critics of Marie Antoinette who are imagining what kind of sort of debauched life she's leading. And intriguingly, where they often turn to is, for example, accusations of lesbian attraction, portraying her as the new kind of Sappho that is luring women

into morally corrupt ways. So she becomes this kind of corrupting force. Well, you mentioned Sappho there. So if you don't mind us taking a quick tangent onto that now, Alistair, because when looking at female desire for other women in antiquity, I mean, what material do we have from antiquity that highlights this? And why is Sappho such a prominent figure in it? Well, because first of all, she's brilliant. I think we just need to say that, right? I mean, you know, Sappho is so innovative, so clever, such a fantastic wordsmith. The way she plays with images, I mean, she's just brilliant. And everyone in antiquity knew that.

And she had numerous kind of imitators as well, people who did versions of her poems, translated them into Latin, for example, the famous Nicolás does this. So she's famous and she kind of circulates in all sorts of ways. She's important because she really is our only voice in terms of expressing female same-sex desire. She's our only voice, but gosh, she's a good one. And the way she describes passion, you know, famously one of her

poems survives to us because it's preserved by a writer who says, look, you know, no one describes what it means to be physically in love better than Sappho. And, you know, he then gives a long quotation from Sappho about, you know, what it's like to look at someone that you're in love with and the way in which a fire runs into your skin, the way you sweat, the way that your tongue is tied, the way your heart beats faster, the way that you feel kind of close to death. I mean, no one describes what it feels like to be in passion and in the throes of love like Sappho. So that voice is so distinctive, so clever, so articulate that she just drowns out everything else. So that's why Sappho is so important.

just drowns out everything else. So that's why Sappho is so important. And she becomes then the inspiration for generations of women who are otherwise struck dumb by society. They are unable to articulate. Society is not interested in providing them a vocabulary for expressing their desires. It doesn't want to hear their voices. Well, in the voice of Sappho, they find themselves and they find that repeating the lines of Sappho becomes a way for them to speak. And so that's why I think Sappho is so important in understanding the operation of female same-sex desire. Because this link with Sappho, this inspirational figure of Sappho, does it really seem to kick off during the 19th century? That's certainly where we start to see the lesbian Sappho take off. I mean, it's interesting. You know, in the 18th century, Sappho is occasionally represented as a sort of raging

heterosexual. So there's a very famous story about Sappho falling in love with a boatman, a ferryman by the name of Farrone, who then rejects her advances and she goes and then throws herself off a cliff. And this is supposedly the reason for her suicide of the Mucallian cliffs. Now, she then becomes, as it were, a kind of person who represents kind of mad, passionate, heterosexual love. That's the 18th century that's the acceptable Sappho, the kind of lesbian Sappho really has to wait a little while to take off. It's interesting, you know, people often wonder whether the French painter David can paint a bad picture. Well, there is, I think, what is the worst David out ever?

And I invite people to Google it and tell me if I'm wrong. But the worst David out is, in fact, his famous portrait of Sappho and Fa'on together, which is without doubt one of the worst pictures ever painted. And I feel that, you know, even David realised that there was something wrong with this image of Sappho blissfully in love in the arms of a man. I've written down that painting's name, Sappho and Fa'on, to have a look after this podcast episode. It's terrible. I can't tell you how terrible it is well i mean let's keep therefore on the 19th century a bit longer there because we also talk about greek love during the 19th century because there seems to be a lot of discourse about greek

love in the 19th century well i mean the 19th century is of course the period when sexology the study of sex begins to take off in a kind of serious way, particularly towards the final decades of the 19th century. So it's the kind of place where there is a lot of discussion of sex. You know, of course obviously Freud will come along and make sex kind of central to his principles and his whole kind of philosophy. So sex is very much on the cards in the 19th century. It's in that context that it's emerging. But it's also the period in which we're starting to actually see

what we might call gay liberation take off. People are identifying as homosexual and they're starting to push back against the strictures that society is forcing on them. So we're starting to see back against the strictures that society is forcing on them. So we're starting to see the movement for law reform, the idea that homosexuality should be acceptable. And in particular, the Greeks play a really important role in this because one of the ideas in circulation is this idea that homosexuality is a form of disease or a form of mental illness or a form of sickness. And the Greeks are really important because the Greeks allow you to say that just can't be the case. You know, the Greek culture, which we put on this pedestal, which we

think is fantastic, which did all these brilliant things, was totally accepting of homosexuality. So how can it be the case that these people were also brilliant but sick, right? And so Greek becomes the answer to the kind of people who want to say, look, actually, homosexuality is just a form of mental illness. And so the Greeks become really important in very early stages of the homosexual rights movement, because the Greeks provide the answer to people who want to try and cure you. People who want to think that they can train you out of your homosexual desires. Well, actually, the Greeks show you that, in fact, actually, it's kind of natural. And that's why, for example, in the Wilde trial, Wilde leans so heavily on this idea of Greek love

and the Greeks as a justification for his kinds of activities. Let's keep on Oscar Wilde then, because Wilde, he is a classicist at heart too. He knows his platonic texts. Look, everyone forgets that Wilde is probably one of the most distinguished classicists of the 19th century, right? So he is a student at, initially, Trinity College Dublin, where he does fantastically well in his exams, tops the class at Trinity College Dublin, then moves to Oxford, where, again, he performs spectacularly well in his exams, getting a double first. He's really a very distinguished scholar in his own right. distinguished scholar in his own right. In fact, one of the great sort of sliding door moments is Wilde writes when he's leaving university, he writes to McMillan and says, look, I'd be interested maybe in doing an edition of Euripides' Heracles. And McMillan's kind of interested in this. And one wonders what would have happened if Wilde had gone down the path of kind of classical

academia, if he'd produced an important edition of Euripides' Heraclese had gone down the path of kind of classical academia, if he'd produced an important edition of Euripides' Heracles and had gone down that path. Instead, in fact, his plays and writing have proved so successful in London that he forgets his classical ambitions. But he is actually interested in a classical or at least educational career in his very early days. He writes, for example, to apply to be an inspector of schools, for example, is one of the other positions he's going for as well. So a school inspector or an academic, and he ends up being a playwright. So he knows the classical world, and one sees allusions to it throughout his work. So most famously, I guess, in terms of thinking

about Greek love is, of course, the picture of Dorian Gray, of which the Dorian in that is, in fact, an allusion to contemporary writings on Greek homosexuality, which see homosexuality in Greece as being the product of a Dorian initiation rite. And this is a very common idea in contemporary scholarship in that period, and Wilde is picking up on it. So the Dorian in Dorian Gray is in fact an allusion to the Dorian Greeks. And there are lots of other allusions throughout his work to the classical world. I mean, absolutely. And just quickly before we move on, you mentioned his trial. Does this trial also seem quite an important moment in the discourse of Greek love in the 19th century?

Yes, absolutely. So in particular, the famous, the love that the 19th century. Yes, absolutely. So in particular, the famous, the love that dare not speak its name speech, I think marks a real sort of public turning point because it's a moment where Wilde is on trial and he's asked to justify this reference to the love that dare not speak his name, which is a coded reference to homosexuality. And Wilde gives this defence, and he's looking at the love that dare not speak his name which is a coded reference to homosexuality and wilde gives this defense and he's looking at the love that dare not speak its name is this

noble affection which we can trace all the way back to plato that plato makes the very basis of his philosophy and he traces it forward and he goes from plato through to david and jonathan through to the contemporary period shakespeare, and then ends up, says, you know, it is a kind of love which we don't understand today, but it is noble, it is kind, it is pure. It's not something that we should be despising. We should not be putting people in the pillory for it. Now, this speech, at least according to contemporary accounts, was greeted by rapturous applause. So this speech is a kind of turning point, this speech, at least according to contemporary accounts, was greeted by rapturous applause. So this speech is a kind of turning point, I think, in the public discussion of homosexuality.

The other thing to say is that it's not just wild. Wild is part of a kind of much larger movement of people who are enthusiastic about the platonic texts that they've been reading, that they've been studying at university. Plato is on the university curriculum, and they're really seeing themselves in these platonic texts. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not, just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push, find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca.

And so Alistair, just before we wrap up, if we then go to the 20th and the 21st centuries, I mean, it's such a huge question, so I don't expect a huge answer. As an overview, what has happened since Wilde in this field? Right. So it's interesting. So Wilde establishes the way in which you use the Greeks, right? You piggyback on the prestige of the Greeks to advocate for political reform. And that model goes into the early part of the 20th century. So we see, you know, political campaigners pushing this idea. I should also say that in addition to kind of relying on the sort of platonic text and platonic vision, you can also piggyback on the erotic potential of Greek art as well. So we see people reproducing reproductions of classical statuary that is

clearly designed for a gay market. There are certain kinds of statues which seem to occur in people's houses that we know had same-sex attractions. So there are certain, as it were, plaster casts that are doing the rounds as a way of making a sort of publicly acceptable form of homosexual desire. This, of course, then feeds into, for example, things like the physique movement as well. So in the 50s and 60s, you know, people who are interested in kind of bodybuilding magazines, particularly gay men who like kind of bodybuilding magazines, particularly gay men who like kind of bodybuilding magazines, will often justify the production of these bodybuilding magazines on the basis that

we're just imitating the Greeks. And some of the names of these bodybuilding magazines, things like the Grecian Guild, for example, really play very strongly on it. And also, it's a good way of kind of showing off the male body. You dress it up in a posing pouch, put it against a column. You can claim this is just a perfectly acceptable bit of classicizing art, even though you're finding it deeply erotic. And that kind of idea of legitimating homosexual desire in the guise of the Greeks really goes into the 50s and 60s. But it starts to look a little old hat. It starts to look a little too apologetic. You know, why should we have to justify homosexuality because the Greeks did it? Why can't we just justify homosexuality on the basis that, you know, gay people should

be able to live gay lives, right? And as a result, this kind of assimilationist, this vaguely apologetic politics based on the Greeks starts to look old hat and we start to see a push against this kind of move. And that's the trend. So one sees a rejection in some ways of the kind of classicising Greek love style of homosexuality. But it is remarkable, isn't it, Alistair, to see how recent really in history that that comes about and really how for so much of history for almost 2 000 years homosexuality in greek love has been regularly entwined with the ancient greece absolutely you can't tell the story of homosexuality without involving the greeks because they've become the place where we've done

our thinking on it because greek bodies represent homosexual ideals because sappho gives us the words to express our desire you know all these things you know the greeks are just so crucial in that story absolutely and i'm of course a big fan of alexander the great hellenistic history oliver stone 2004 film there was a bit of a pushback after that film wasn't there for their portrayal of alexander is this quite an example of how nowadays there is attempts by some people to try and disunite, to dislink this association between ancient Greece and homosexuality? Yes, absolutely.

So when Oliver Stone's Alexander's film came out, there were a number of people, particularly who were identified as Greek. So either members of the Greek diaspora, or in fact, people who are Greek themselves, who thought this, you know, was diminishing the reputation of Alexander, that they thought Alexander was being tarnished in some ways by portraying his relationship with Hephaestion. I mean, it's one of the things that, you know, all the sources mention, it's well attested. It's certainly not anything that Oliver Stone was adding to it. So they really

pushed back against it. I mean, at the same time, you know, there are a lot of people who thought Oliver Stone didn't go far enough, that in fact, he was far too chaste in his representation of the relationship between Alexander and Hephaestion. They would like to be a lot more physical than actually Oliver Stone portrayed it. So I mean, you can never make people happy. But I think what was interesting was that there was no one who thought that the people who complaining about Alexander the Great had a legitimate claim. I mean, they were the ones who looked like the outsiders and the nutcases. And I think that, you know, the fact that homosexuality in Greece just goes together in so important ways, I think, is the fact to take away from it. Alistair, once again, this has been a really

interesting eye-opening chat. Last but certainly not least, your book on this topic is called sex vice and love from antiquity to modernity and it gives you a the story of how the erotic from antiquity has kind of influenced uh modern ideas of sexuality absolutely alistair it only goes for me to say thank you so much once again for taking the time to come back on the podcast. Always a pleasure.