The Ancients - Lugdunum: The Biggest Battle in Roman History?

Episode Date: February 21, 2021

In 197 AD, the armies of Septimius Severus and Clodius Albinus met at Lugdunum, on the site of present day Lyon. If we believe the numbers given in Cassius Dio, this was the greatest and bloodiest clash between two Roman armies in history. 300,000 soldiers were present in total, according to Dio. The numbers are debated, but nevertheless the titanic scale of this clash in ancient history is clear to see. In this episode Tristan speaks to Dr Jonathan Eaton about the lead up to the battle, how Severus and Albinus went from friends to foes, and whether we can really call this the biggest battle in Roman history. Jonathan is Academic Registrar at Teeside University and author of ‘Leading The Roman Army: Soldiers and Emperors 31 BC - 235 AD’.

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they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not, just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and in today's podcast we are talking about a battle that has been described as one of the biggest civil war clashes of ancient Rome. Now this occurred at the start of 197 AD or CE, whatever takes your fancy. The traditional date I believe is the 19th of February and this battle occurred near the modern city of Lyon in

France, the Battle of Lugdunum, fought between the forces of Septimius Severus on the one hand and his great foe Clodius Albinus. Now to talk through this titanic clash, the background and what happened during the battle and its aftermath, I was delighted to be rejoined by Dr Jonathan Eaton. Jonathan has been on the show once before to talk about 69 AD and the rise of Vespasian, so it was great to get him back on the show to talk through the titanic clash of the Battle of Lugdunum. Jonathan, great to have you back on the show.

Thanks, Tristan, and thank you again for inviting me. I'm really excited to talk about this topic, which I think is one of those battles from antiquity, which, although we often don't discuss it in great detail, actually has huge significance in terms of understanding how the empire itself evolved. Absolutely, this titanic battle at the end of the second century AD. But let's dive into the background first of all then, Jonathan. 31st December 192 AD, it's the end of 192 AD, the infamous Emperor Commodus has just been assassinated. What happens next? It's a time of huge instability in Imperial Rome and throughout Roman history and since the dawning

of the empire under Augustus, the peak crisis periods have always been when a dynasty comes to an end because at that moment it throws into the open the relative challenges and paradoxes that exist within the imperial system, in particular what Tacitus called in AD 69 the secret of empire, that an emperor could be made elsewhere than in Rome. In other words, how the balance of power was really maintained by the provincial armies and their commanders. And that was true in the first century AD and it's even more significant when we get to the assassination of Commodus. So Commodus is killed, he's assassinated by his retainers and some of the senior senators in Rome are involved in the plot, which as ever is relatively murky. In the background, as news begins to seep out that the emperor has been killed and there is

a lack of a clear successor, a politician named Pertinax approaches the Praetorian Guard, who act as the elite military force in Rome, providing security for the emperor and the imperial family and secures their support on the basis of a financial donative which is given to the troops. That's sufficient to allow him to become emperor, the first of five emperors that emerge during 193 AD. But Pertinax is in a very very difficult position really for two reasons. First of all, his sole claim to legitimacy is the support of the Praetorian Guard, and the Praetorian Guards are driven by money at this stage. Secondly, he doesn't have the full support of the Senate because of the lack of legitimacy in his claim. And thirdly his whole approach to taking power has completely ignored the provincial army commanders and the views of the armies scattered across the perimeter of the empire. So Pertinax doesn't actually last long in fact he loses the support of the Praetorian Guard

relatively quickly and that's because he begins to make policy changes which appear to begin to limit the license that the Praetorian Guard has as an elite military unit and very quickly they begin to turn against him. Rome at this stage is a political melting pot. Different aspects of the populace are supporting different candidates for imperial power. The city is rife with rumour around which provincial commander might choose to seize power. Pertinax tries to shore up his support with the guard but in reality he has already lost it and despite a public appeal for their loyalty they kill him in the centre of Rome. At this moment in time, there is

no clear successor, and in one of the occasions, one of those pivotal events in Roman history, which is seen as a low-water mark in terms of scandal and bad behaviour, the Praetorian Guard hold what is described as an auction of empire. Essentially two rival politicians, Sulc Piccianus and Didius Julianus, bid for the support of the Praetorians, literally by putting bids forward as to how much they would pay each Praetorian for their support. Didius Julianus is the senator who wins. He makes a winning bid of about 25,000 sestases per praetorian which is a small fortune and that's enough for them to declare him emperor. But all of this of course is taking place solely in Rome and the balance of power by the end of the second century has moved to the

provincial armies, the legions and the auxiliary forces scattered along the perimeter of the empire. For these troops of course the opportunity to elevate their commanders to imperial power is a real bonus because it opens up for them the opportunities for promotion, for financial benefits, perhaps even for a transition to Rome itself to join the Praetorian Guard or other units within the city. At this specific moment in time the nearest and most dangerous army group to Italy is in Pannonia, the Danubian legions and in particular in Upper Pannonia which holds three legions. The governor of Upper Pannonia is a man named Septimius Severus. Now his background is actually nothing

spectacular and despite his later reputation you can't really class him as one of the leading military experts within his particular peer group. He was born in Africa in the city of Leptis Magna in modern-day Libya. That was a thriving cosmopolitan port and Severus belonged to one of the leading families, extremely wealthy, but in fact his father had no political background. So it was Severus who first joined the Senate, although he had some distant cousins who'd achieved some prominence in Rome. He joined the Senate under Marcus Aurelius but interestingly given what everyone's going through today it was actually thrown off track by the Antonine Plague which struck Rome and the provinces between 165 and 180 and as a result he wasn't able to secure the posts in the provinces

or in Rome that a young senator normally would so he moved back actually to Leptis Magna. After the plague had played out there are obviously a number of vacancies within the senate and within the provincial commands which meant his career could then take off and later in the reign of Commodus he was given the governorship of Upper Pannonia. Now that in itself was quite interesting because usually to take control of that particular posting you would need to have military experience usually on the northern frontier. Severus didn't have that at all he'd commanded one legion in Syria but that was about it so it's very likely that his commission in Upper Pannonia was based on his contacts within Rome, particularly the court of Commodus, and potentially individuals

who came from Africa similar to himself. So 193, as all of this chaos takes place in Rome, Severus is sat in Upper Pannonia with a battle-hardened force close to Italy. He makes the decision to seize power and is supported by the Danubian legions. They themselves are very closely connected to the German legions, that Rhine-Danube frontier of course being one of the peak areas of military deployment within this particular period, and Severus marches on Rome. He's able to take Rome on the basis of the strength of those legions and although we often focus on the Praetorian Guard, the Praetorian Guard dominates Rome from a military sense but it doesn't have the experience or the numbers to be able to face down the provincial armies. So as

Severus is heading towards the city it's very clear that Julianus can't hold out. He does do his best to prepare the city for a siege, but our contemporary accounts make it out really as a complete farce. So we know, for example, that he recruited elephants that were used in the games at Rome and tried to use them to erect towers, but it all went completely wrong and the elephants were simply not war animals. So as a result, as Severus approaches, the regime of Julianus collapses and he himself is killed. Severus is approaching Rome though as a war commander, not as a senator, and that's very clear in terms of his intention to see the city as hostile territory. So we're told that as he approaches Rome, he is constantly guarded by 500 to 600 men

who notoriously always keep their armour on. In other words, everyone's keeping bulletproof vests on all the time. Senators who stream out of the city to see him are searched by those guards. It's very very high pressure, high tension. As Severus reaches the city he asks the Praetorian guard to parade outside the city in their dress uniform leaving their weapons within the city. They of course comply with their new emperor. They have very little choice but it's a trap and what Severus does is essentially disband them, ordering them to leave the city and head away from Rome itself. This allows him to replace the guard with his own troops and this changes the fabric of the city of Rome because the Praetorians were usually recruited from Italy but now they're

troops from the Danubian frontier demonstrating a complete takeover by Severus that this is very different from what occurred previously. Now as Severus begins to occupy Rome he hears news from Syria that the governor of Syria has been elevated to the imperial throne by the Syrian legions. The governor was known as Piscennius Niger and Syria was the second military hotspot in the empire. It held a large number of legions and other units. It's a real threat to Rome. In particular the Syrian legions have the ability to secure Egypt which was the granary of the city of Rome in terms of sending grain ships over so there's a high level of risk. Severus realises he needs to head east, he needs to deal with this threat but doing so opens up a closer threat in terms of the northern provinces

close to Italy and in particular if another governor makes a move on the city of Rome repeating exactly what Severus did. So what Severus chooses to do is to take the governor of Britain Clodius Albinus and offer him essentially the role of Caesar i.e. the designated successor to Severus. This binds Albinus and the British legions to the Severan cause and it means that severus protects his rear as he heads to the east to deal with niger he is successful and his forces defeat niger in the field that means that severus now controls the east as well as the western provinces however this also opens up another dilemma which is having destroyed his political enemies in the east Severus no longer needs Albinus as his designated successor particularly

when Severus has two grown sons of his own and recognises the need to establish a dynasty. So as Severus gradually heads back to Italy, he announces that his oldest son will be designated as his successor. Albinus hears this and moves his troops from Britain over to Gaul to prepare to face Severus at the showdown, which will be the Battle of Lugdunum. Now, Jonathan, just before we keep going on on that, let's just focus a bit more on Claudius Albinus in particular, first of all, because he's this really astonishing character. You mentioned how Severus is originally from North Africa and Albinus is too.

Yeah, that's correct. What we've seen during the second century of the imperial period is how as Rome has grown and the provinces have been established, they've been closely integrated into Rome, that actually provincials begin to rise in the imperial hierarchy achieving even greater prominence. This really began with the Emperor Trajan who was the first emperor to be born in a province and to be closely identified with a particular province. But in reality, Trajan belonged to an Italian family which had just been established there. Whereas in the 2nd century AD, we see a greater number of key figures in the imperial administration

who are promoted on the basis of talent rather than their connections within Rome. Some of this is a result of what's happened in the mid to late second century AD, not just the Antonine Plague but also the wars that have been waged on the northern frontier which have depleted some of the ranks of the imperial administration. Albinus has the governorship of Britain and Britain is increasingly significant first of all because the number of troops that are based there. There's three legions and there's a significant number of auxiliary units as well so even though it's on the periphery of the empire it has a high concentration of military forces and there within striking distance of Gaul and subsequently

Italy. Secondly there were very close relationships between the troops in Britain and those on the Rhine frontier in particular because often reinforcements would move both ways according to where particular trouble took place. So in choosing Albinus as his initial successor, Severus made a very, very smart move because it meant that he gained control, initially at least, of this concentration of imperial power in the north, which meant that other governors wouldn't make a move against him whilst he dealt with the trouble in the east. It's very clever and it makes, I guess, perfect strategic sense when you look at it but severus as you said he's defeated niger in the east and he's coming back and he this is quite a ruthless

betrayal of albinus isn't it he's secured it and then he's basically cut off the agreement by naming his son as the heir and so as you say albinus he comes over to ghoul how does the campaign progress because as you also mentioned albinus he's not a Yusuf with a few amounts of troops, he's got a lot of troops with him because of his control over Britain. That's correct. So what we're building up towards is one of the major clashes of imperial forces in a civil war sense within the first and second centuries AD. Albinus' move is to position his troops in Gaul, and in particular at Lugdunum. Lugdunum, modern-day Lyon,

is an incredibly important city in the Roman world. It acts really as a de facto capital of the Gallic provinces, so all of the information, the money that flows through those provinces, does so through Lugdunum. There's also an imperial mint there as well so since the very start of the Julio-Claudian dynasty in the first century AD this has been seen as a strategically important location. Albinus also brings on board to his

cause the legions from Spain so he's building up a coalition but what he doesn't have are the troops from the Rhine and the Danube which remain loyal to Severus. What's going on in Gaul at this moment in time is really considerable chaos in terms of how these different factions are manoeuvring against each other. We know Albinus is on the move, he's positioning his troops at Lugdunum, rumours are thriving around where Severus is, how fast he's moving, who is loyal to him, who is loyal to Albinus and there's a particular anecdote which I think is really illustrative of what this particular moment in time was like. So there's a story which is preserved by the historian Cassius Dio of a school teacher from Rome called Numerianus. And Numerianus, for very vague reasons, leaves Rome of his own accord and heads to Gaul.

When he arrives in Gaul, he claims to be a senator who's been sent by Severus to gather troops on his behalf. on his behalf. Eumerianus manages to gather a militia around him which he uses to fight a cavalry unit belonging to Albinus and in fact routes them and manages to take control of a significant fortune which belonged to the cause of Albinus. Whilst this is going on Eumerianus begins to communicate with Severus to tell him where he is, what his position is, the number of his troops and Severus communicates back because Severus of course is not experienced in the senate and doesn't realise that Numerianus is not a senator and is in fact a complete imposter. It all ends up as quite a happy story because at the end of this particular conflict Numerianus confesses that he is not a senator, he is really

a school teacher, and he heads back into the countryside for a life of retirement and a lifetime pension that's provided by Severus as a result of his endeavours on his behalf. But all of that gives you a sense of the absolute chaos that's going on. Now, contemporary sources tell us that the Battle of Lugdunum was one of the largest clashes in the Roman world. According to Cassius Dio who was a senator during this period he claims that there were 300,000 men involved in this battle. Now in reality at this moment in time there were between 400 and 450,000 troops in the entire empire so very clearly the 300,000 is an exaggeration. However it's fair to say that it probably was significant in terms

of the volume of troops there and I think most scholars in the modern world would perhaps put a figure of at least 100,000 troops present if you take into account not just the fighting troops but the camp followers as well, those who are dealing with supply chains and logistics and that's drawn from Britain and Spain on behalf of Albinus but it's the Rhine and the Danube who are really contributing to Severus's side as well. So you have this massive clash of forces. The other feature which ensured it remained prominent in Roman memory was that the battle was believed to have continued for a number of days. This in itself was unusual because usually clashes were over in a few hours, really just because of

the physical aspects of conflict in the ancient world. But certainly for the Battle of Lugdunum, it was believed to be the largest battle during this period and to world but certainly for the Battle of Lugdunum it was believed to be the largest battle during this period and to have gone on for the longest period. In reality I think what was happening was it was taking an awful lot of time for these forces to manoeuvre for them to be brought together there are probably a number of initial clashes before the battle itself actually began. Just before we go on to the battle itself, Jonathan, just the soldiers of this period, the legionaries of Albinus and the legionaries of Severus,

are we thinking the Lorica Segmentata, big rectangular scutum shield legionaries of the past centuries, or have they evolved somewhat? Yeah, it's a very good question. In terms of how the armies themselves would have appeared they would have been very similar to what we see on the column of Marcus Aurelius, the depiction of soldiers who were fighting in the Marcomannic wars in particular on the Danube in the later second century AD. So very much the kind of classic picture that you imagine of what the

Roman troops looked like. However, we also know that beneath that picture there was high levels of customisation going on, particularly for where troops had been positioned. So you would expect to see perhaps elements of armour, of decoration, even of weaponry, which directly reflected the context from which those soldiers were being drawn. So what we shouldn't imagine when we're thinking of this huge class of soldiers is that the soldiers all look the same. In reality, they would have looked quite different because this is a very heterogeneous force that's been brought together from across the empire. And we certainly think as well that Severus was probably bringing units back with him from Syria and elsewhere in the eastern provinces

in order to bulk his forces for the clash that he knew was coming. And so we go on to the battle itself. Early, mid-February, 197 AD. Correct me if my dates are slightly off there, Jonathan. How does the battle progress? You're absolutely right with time, interestingly. Although there's always some challenge around dates in the ancient world, the traditional date is the 19th of February. Now, it's very difficult to unpick from the sources what actually happened during the battle, because in fact, the level of detail, which we we might hope doesn't really exist within the sources but

there is enough there to give us an indication of how the battle itself progressed. So what we know is that as the forces came together Severus was leading his left wing into battle. At the initial stages of the clash Albinus's left wing began to give ground and the Severan forces surged forward. At the same time, the left Severan wing, which was being led by the emperor himself, also began to push the Albinans back. However, this was a trick. It was a deliberate deceit by the troops of Albinus which interestingly might link directly to their previous experience in Britain and the reason for this is that the troops of Albinus had prepared the ground in advance of the battle and in particular what they'd done is build an entire

area which consisted of concealed pits. At the bottom of each pit would be stakes, other unpleasant things to trap the unwary Severan soldiers. Now this particular construct we know from the writings of Julius Caesar and it was used fairly heavily across the Roman world but in particular at frontier sites and the reason we can link this to Britain is that they appear to have been used quite frequently along the northern frontier at Hadrian's Wall in terms of protecting particular areas of the frontier with these whole areas of concealed pits that prevent people obviously from approaching. So as the Severans on the left wing with the Emperor began to surge forward in fact they were being pulled into a

trap and they ran straight into the pits which caused absolute chaos and disorder. Now what we know at that stage is that discipline began to break down and the Severans began to flood back in retreat. There are two key sources for the battle. The first by Herodian, who was a Greek who had a relatively minor position within the imperial administration in Rome. The other was Cassius Dio, who was a senator during this period and had a particular view of Severus and his regime. But the two sources differ as to what happens next. So the common theme is that during that chaos, as to what happens next. So the common theme is that during that chaos Severus fell off his horse and his horse charged away as the Severan troops flooded back in complete disarray. Now what happens next is the point of contention. According to Herodian Severus ripped off his imperial cloak

threw it to the ground and ran in retreat with the soldiers. The purpose of taking the cloak off of course was that he was no longer a clear target for assassination. For Cassius Dio however what Severus then does is rally the troops. He takes off his cloak because he uses that for riding, he draws his sword and he commands the troops to halt and to follow him back into battle. So interestingly, two very different perspectives on what seems very likely to have been an actual event, whether Severus did in fact flee or whether he stood his ground and rallied the troops behind him. Now at this critical moment, as it appears that the Severan forces are breaking, one of Severus' generals, a man called Lytus, was waiting

in the background with a large cavalry force. According to Cassius Dio, and this might be rumor, what Lytus was actually doing was waiting to see who would win and then put his cavalry in on their side at a given point in time. At this moment, just as the four Severans were disengaging, in time. At this moment just as the four the Severans were disengaging, Lytas brought his cavalry into play and it essentially swept the field of the forces of Albinus. The Severans rallied, went back into battle and destroyed the forces of Albinus. In terms of what happened next the sources tell us it was a picture of absolute carnage they talk about a battlefield that was filled with mutilated bodies with piles of the dead they say that the bloodshed was so great that the blood ran into the streams the streams carried the blood into the river rhone

that this was complete catastrophe and of course there was added horror because these were not enemy troops, these were Roman troops caught in a civil conflict. Severus moved with his closest retainers and his guard into the city of Lugdunum itself. Albinus had sought refuge there and was soon killed. It's a little bit unclear whether he took his own life or whether he was assassinated but the body was brought to Severus. The next thing we hear about the body itself is fairly horrific. So when Albinus was brought to Severus, Severus mounted his horse and rode it over the body of his defeated comrade. Now it's important to say that that whole image is very common in the artwork which Roman cavalry soldiers use often on their tombstones.

They're called writer tombstones from the German for rider which shows a Roman cavalryman riding down his enemy. Severus is replicating this in his post-battle behavior he has Albinus's wife and children killed and then he cuts off Albinus's head and sends that to Rome and throws his body into the river never to be seen again there's something of course similar to almost terror tactics going on here because the head is sent to Rome before Severus. In other words it's showing the senate this is what happens if you stand in front of the Severan dynasty. There's a great deal of bloodshed subsequent to the battle itself as Severus begins to deal locally with individuals who supported Albinus before or during the battle and interestingly we see this economically as well

so during the same period we see a large number of factories that are producing samian ware pottery going out of business in Gaul probably because the nobles who funded them and who owned them had themselves been removed. In Spain we see a large number of olive oil businesses which move from private ownership into ownership by the state during the same period which is probably exactly the same mechanism. Their owners have supported albinus, they've been removed and their businesses have been absorbed by Severus. All that is left to Severus is to march on Rome and assert his authority for the next and hopefully from his perspective final time. Jonathan given all that and like the size and the scale of the Battle of Lugdunum and the brutality that ensues from Severus the rise of Severus must be

one of if not the bloodiest in the whole of Roman imperial history. Yeah, very much so, Tristan. It really harks back to Augustus and the foundation of the imperial regime itself. What Augustus was able to do, though, was to, over time, almost distinguish himself from the chaos of the civil wars that went before, and instead depict himself as a restorer of stability, as opposed to a warlord. Severus is in a very, very different position. He can't separate himself from what has come before. It's unfortunate that most of our sources are written from the perspective of the Senate and the Senate took a very dim view of Severus for a number of reasons. First of all because of the violence

that was associated with his rise to power but also his perceived close relationship with the soldiers and that's something perhaps we'll pick up shortly in terms of how true that close relationship was actually in reality. So as Severus comes to Rome, he has to deal with the Senate and he's in a very difficult position because on the one hand, an emperor needs the support of his Senate. That's been demonstrated over two centuries now. But on the other, the Senate has been filled with individuals who supported rivals for power. So what Severus does is associate himself with the previous dynasty and paints himself almost as a brother of Commodus, a son of Marcus Aurelius. He's bringing back stability. In particular, he also associated himself with Pertinax who came after Commodus and

the reason for this was that it allowed him to show how the people, the senate, the former Praetorian guard had turned their back on an emperor and in fact had killed him. So it allowed him to demonstrate his role as a bringer of justice almost. When Severus enters the city a large number of senators are taken into custody. These are those that are perceived to have supported rival candidates for power and it's over 60 in general. Notoriously Severus had 29 senators executed very quickly and this was a figure that the senate never forgot that he had turned the hands of violence on the senate themselves what they conveniently forgot was he did in fact release over 30 of those that he'd taken into custody but certainly there was

a sense here that Severus was coming in to occupy Rome. He was creating a new and lasting dynasty that would be very different from the period of chaos that had preceded it. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton.

Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. And so is this a main way in which Severus aims to cement the new dynasty? Yeah, that's absolutely right. So what Severus does, first of all, is essentially remove all opposition. He's been to the east and he's removed his opponents there. He's then come back to the west and cleansed his opponents there so what remains really is to establish his dynasty securely within Rome and the provinces itself and one way he does this is to identify himself and his dynasty extremely closely to the soldiers now this of course is

interesting because you'll remember at the beginning of our discussion, I referenced that Severus, in fact, didn't have a significant military background. If you'd looked at him during the reign of Commodus, he wouldn't have stood out compared to some of his peers. than the vast majority of emperors who preceded him over the previous two centuries and there's a number of ways he does this. First of all he is of course increasing the number of soldiers in Rome who are personally loyal to himself, not just the Praetorian Guard but also the other units that are stationed within the city including the urban cohorts, the vigilets or watchmen and there's some evidence of the equivalent almost of special forces or spies that he's also bringing in from the legions to serve within Rome. During his reign he'll make two major policy decisions which are transformational for the soldiers themselves. First of all he institutes a pay raise for the entire imperial army. Now pay raises were unfrequent and uncommon in the Roman world and that's simply an economic fact. If you're increasing

the salary for every soldier that's an incredible cost across the entire empire. So the last pay rise had in fact been under Domitian almost a century beforehand, but Severus puts one in to bind the soldiers to himself. The second policy change he makes is to remove the legal ban on soldiers marrying. This had been in place since the reign of Augustus and in fact harked back much further to when the Roman legions were predominantly seasonal in terms of going out on campaign in the summer and then returning to their homes. Augustus had kept it in place as a sign of discipline really for the legions but it had become increasingly problematic because soldiers of course built relationships with local women but they were of dubious legal

status and that caused challenges for individual emperors and soldiers over the first and second centuries. So by removing this ban Severus again bound the legions to himself. But he was also unusual in his degree of mobility. So Severus was in power for 18 years and for 14 of those he was on the move across the empire only four of those years was he stationary in Rome that's completely different to many of the emperors over the previous two centuries who often as we all know were centered in Rome and left the provinces to their provincial commanders what Severus is demonstrating is his personal grip on power, his closeness to the provincial armies, and referencing again that key truth

that you might control Rome, but unless you control and command the provincial armies, you can't rule as an emperor. And that ultimately culminates in one of the most memorable quotes, I think, Severus leaves on his deathbed to his sons. That's correct. According to contemporary sources, Severus told them to look after each other, to enrich the soldiers and to forget about everyone else. And that quote and that final deathbed sentence is really symptomatic of Severus's whole approach to imperial power. His reliance upon the support of the military was acutely visible both to the senate and to the broader population of Rome itself and what it really fundamentally demonstrated was that the balance of power no longer resided in the senate and the political

system in Rome but actually was held in the army camps scattered on the frontiers of the empire. Well Jonathan I'm glad that you mentioned their previous emperors because in a past podcast we talked about the rise of Aspasian in 69 AD and you've written a book all about the close association between the emperors and the army. Jonathan, can we see any similarities, any real similarities between the rise of Vespasian in 69 AD and the rise of Severus that we've been talking about in this podcast? I think there are clear similarities. In both cases, the emperors themselves, Vespasian and Severus were not the obvious candidates. It was almost a coincidence it was a conflagration of different factors which meant that they were able

to seize power. In both cases they happened to be reliant on provincial legions they were on the spot they had the support of the troops which enabled them to have a military basis on which to claim the throne. In both cases they were well positioned in terms of having two sons by pure coincidence which meant that they offered stability as a dynasty, that it wasn't just a single individual who was taking power but rather a family and a family that offered stability. who was taking power but rather a family and a family that offered stability but I think the differences are that Vespasian in a sense was very keen to distance himself from the violence which was necessary to take power so as I talked about in the previous podcast he delayed arriving in Rome and let his close supporters deal with the opposition and

arrive subsequently to all that so in a sense the murders the bloodletting that was required the purging of the opposition was handled by members of the Flavian party but not by Vespasian himself whereas Severus was always on the scene it was him who was driving this he was there in the thick of battle and throughout his time as emperor he always associated himself directly with the army whereas Vespasian although his reliance on the army was clear was far less visible in how that reliance was played out and Vespasian in a sense really reset the imperial regime of the first century back towards what the Julio-Claudian dynasty looked and acted like as emperors whereas when we see Severus he really is foreshadowing what would come later in Roman history, both in terms of the

geopolitical pressures that the empire was under, the need for emperors to be on the move, to be on the provinces, and the absolute reliance of imperial power on the military forces scattered around the perimeter of the empire. Well there you go, Vespasian, the victor of the year of the empire. Well, there you go. Vespasian, the victor of the year of the four emperors. Severus, the victor of the year of the five emperors. Jonathan, just before we go, your book is called? Leading the Romano-Almi, Soldiers and Emperors, 31 BC to AD 235. Brilliant. Jonathan, thanks very much for coming back on the show. Great to see you again. Thanks Tristan. Take care. Thank you.