The Ancients - Mavia: Arabia's Warrior Queen

Episode Date: October 24, 2021

To fight against the Roman empire and then make an alliance with them took a certain courage and tenacity. In this episode we are introduced to Mavia, the warrior queen of the semi-nomadic Tanukhids, who did just that. Dr. Emran El-Badawi, associate professor of Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Houston, takes us through the things we know and the things that are speculated about Mavia. Emran also places her within the context of the 4th and 5th centuries CE, and discusses her legacy and connections to a closely-connected bishop Moses of Sinai.

Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like The Ancients ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. It's The Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. And in today's podcast, we are talking about an ancient Arabian warrior queen called Mavia. She was a leader of a people called the Tanukids. At one time, she was an ally of Rome, but at another time she was also an enemy of Rome, who staunchly defended her people.

Now to talk through the life of Mavia and why she was such an important figure in the history of pre-Islamic Arabia, I was delighted to get on the show Dr. Emran El-Badawi from the University of Houston in Texas. So without further ado, here's Emran. Emran, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today. Tristan, thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure. Now, Queen Mavia, Emron, as we were discussing just before we went live, I cannot believe that I'd never really heard of this woman in ancient history before starting doing the

research for this podcast. But looking at what she did during her life against the Romans, with the Romans and her extraordinary legacy, it's unbelievable. She was this extraordinary figure. Absolutely. The exceptional nature of Mauia or Mavia, as we know her, escapes many scholars and students of history. And when I say history, I mean those who study Roman history, the Orient, or even Islamic or pre-Islamic history, frequently this name falls through the cracks. And one of the reasons and one of the motivations for my most recent book manuscript, which is still under review, is precisely this impetus that what a

fascinating woman to fight Rome and then join Rome, right? So I thought that this story was fascinating and that her contribution to history and to the history of the Near East, of course, and Roman history is something that has been underappreciated over the years. And hopefully that's something we can rectify. And I'm grateful to you as well for giving us the time. Well, absolutely. We're going to rectify that indeed. And what's quite interesting, isn't it, that there are so many women who do fight against Rome, but there aren't many, if any others than Mavia, who then go on to join Rome too. That was so interesting what you were saying there. It's quite unique of her. Yeah, so absolutely. And in the case of Mavia, it's maybe even doubly so.

So Mavia is documented certainly within the sources that we know. So, Mavia is documented, certainly, within the sources that we know. I mean, so one of the sources that we rely on is Sosimines of Gaza, who dies in that purpose was that she wanted an Arab or a Saracen bishop. She wanted a bishop to represent her flock that were of her own ethnic background. I mean, that has ramifications, which is fascinating, right? Because Irfan Shahid, a famous historian of Byzantine world and Arabia at the same time, posits that this is sort of the early rumblings of an Arabic or an Arab church. Now, of course, those ideas are not without perpetual debate, but that's fascinating. And Mavia is sort of the mother of that movement, of the beginnings of an Arabic church. At the same time, you're talking about, in this case, the fourth century, greater Syria, the Roman Oriens. I mean, it's a sea of what we consider orthodox today. That is to say, Nicene Christianity was a minority position. And for her to take that

minority position and to try and spread it more broadly is also something of significance. And then a third layer you can add to this, of course, is maybe I never lost to the Romans. So she beat Valens at his own game. And she, of course, had terms and then ended up joining the legions of Rome to fight the Goths later on. So it's absolutely fascinating. Well, we'll definitely delve into all those details of her life and afterlife during this podcast. But take a step back, set the scene. You mentioned that we're talking about the fourth century. And really, first of all, to set the background of Mavia and her people and her alliance and conflict with Rome,

we need to first of all to go to another figure from this period. And that is, in my notes, I've got Zenobia. Emran, first of all, who was Zenobia? So Zenobia, of course, the name is a Greek name and her name appears in sources, of course, in Greek and Latin sources as Zenobia and is received in the Arabic sources afterwards as Zeba or Zeba meaning hair-like or hairy actually refers to hair. Eri actually refers to hair. And the Greek term Zenobia, the noun itself is Arabicized as Zaynab. It's sort of this weird diminutive version of this name, which is a good Arabic name and is actually the name of one of Muhammad's daughters. And it occurs throughout early Islamic history.

So Zenobia is another one of these really mythical yet historical figures that left a very profound imprint on Arabian tradition and history moving forward. She was the Empress of the East. And prior to that, the Queen of Palmyra died probably 274 CE. And her story was, of course, similar to her successor. She was not elected, but of course, women came into power then typically because they married into power and their husband, the king, died. And that's precisely what happened. Zenobia's husband, Odonathus, was governor of Syria Phoeniciae, a province, of course, of Syria that belonged to Rome. He himself was a Roman citizen and became extremely prominent in his own right. And when Rome entered what we would describe as the third century crisis, Odonathus was fighting on behalf of Rome

against their arch nemesis in the East, the Persians. And in doing so, he fell in battle at some point, or actually, we don't actually know. Some cases even describe it as an assassination. So Zenobia's husband, the king of Palmyra, passes, and she inherits his throne immediately. And fate would have it that she was a brilliant leader. So she was a power hungry woman. She was brilliant. She built on the legacy of her husband and used the opportunity of Rome's, at some point, weakness in the late third century. And her son, Vahballathus, she used the opportunity as queen regents to supplant the power of Rome and inculcate a more native Palmyrene, Arab, Aramean, native Semitic roots of power within

Syria, broadly speaking. And in doing so also, she did conquer territories further north in Anatolia, as far as Egypt, and she ended up controlling for a few years, you know, what we describe as the Roman Orients, or a vast quantity of what we describe as the Eastern Roman lands. And she did other things also. She minted coins with her son's name. So Vabalath, okay, which she prepared him to be the next emperor, really, of Rome, right? She saw herself as Empress of Rome. And of course, this did not sit well with the Romans. And Emperor, I believe it is Aurelian at that time, who dies 275, of course, cannot leave this challenge unchecked and does invade Palmyra and easily conquers the realm and takes it back for Rome once again.

But like I said, the legacy that Zenobia left behind is the stuff of legend, both among the Latin-speaking sources and the Arabic-speaking sources. They tell all sorts of fanciful stories about her because of just how brilliant and short-lived her splendor was. So what is her immediate legacy in particular for Arabian rulers? Because does it seem to see that following her death, she still seems to influence religious change in the region? Again, Zenobia has set up a lot of chain reactions, shall we say,

that would later on flourish. So, you know, when it came to the ethno-tribal makeup of what we would call later on Arabia, you have historians like Aziz al-Azma and others who posit that really the destruction of Palmyra, circa 274, 275, it sent shockwaves through the northern Arabic-speaking tribes. And what that did was it fractured Arabian society. Again, all subject to debate. But one can posit, or at least tentatively debate, that you have certain blocks within Arabia.

In the north, of course, the Qudra, or I typically equate them with the Roman federati, that is, you know, Arabian tribes bound by treaty to the Roman emperor. This process becomes more important. The Romans now need local men, emphasis on men, on the ground to police the area. And again, we have good research again, Jan Ritzo has his book on Arabia and antiquity, and he talks about the role of Arabs coming into being in the state of sort of policing the territory. So again, you know, the Arabs come into being really in a political way through the Romans. And part of that has to do with the destruction of Palmyra. That's one.

The other thing, of course, that Zenobia contributes is her religious and maybe even her sort of intimate alliances are totally a mystery. When you read the sources, you read Rufinus and all these other Latin sources, they just tell these tall tales about a woman who is beautiful and has pearly teeth and is seduced by the Jews and then is, you know, entertaining the Manichaeans. And there's a little bit of truth to that. But of course, it's been caricatured. That's what the sources do for us, especially when it's men writing about women, which is something I get into in the book. But to come back again to Zenobia and her commitments and her alliances, one interesting thing is that

we don't actually know anything about what Zenobia was. Was she Christian, Jewish, pagan? is that we don't actually know anything about what Zenobia was. Was she Christian, Jewish, pagan? We don't know. So we have to assume. Palmyra itself was a bastion, was a sort of bedrock of Arabian paganism. And it just sort of melded with Hellenic, Roman, Persian, Babylonian, Egyptian influences. The Pantheon was a huge mix. And again, there's great research on this. So that's our assumption about Zenobia. However, her matronage of Paul of Samosata, who himself was an early church father described by later church fathers as a heretic, right? He really wasn't. One thing I argue vehemently in the book, which we don't have maybe as much time to get into now, is that when it came to people like Paul of Samosata or some

of his predecessors, Tatian, others, their ideas about seeing God and the universe and the elements of creation and looking at the Trinity and the way they did, the accusations of adoptionism and things like that, those are very much native to Semitic cultures. They're not strange to Semitic cultures. They are strange to the Latin fathers or the Greek fathers. So that's for sure. And the problem is whenever we look at Zenobia or we look at Paul of Samosata, we're looking through their lens. We don't have any proper Semitic sources at the time for Zenobia. So what ends up happening in Palmyra in the third century is you have a wellspring of mixing incredibly heterodox Christian environment. You have a background of paganism. There is a small Jewish community. We have some evidence of

that, both from rabbinic sources and from inscriptions later on, talking about both Odonathus and his wife Zenobia. And we also have evidence of Manichaeans and of Manichaeans being part of Zenobia's somehow household through her sister. Some of those, again, are tall tales. So Zenobia, of course, that world is one where you have a multiplicity of religious influences and the ethnic influences, I would say, also tend to fracture. And Zenobia herself, of course, sets an example, which later on, I would say for Christian fathers and for Islamic scholars later on, serve as an example of female leadership, both to be admired and usurped. So again, many levels to consider.

Absolutely. And Zenobia, this titan has fallen. And I appreciate with the sources that we have that, as you say, it's almost people writing about her or about that part of the world from elsewhere. I've got to ask a bit more about Arabia before we go on to people such as the Tanukids, the Himyarites, because please correct me if I'm wrong, but does it feel as if in the late fourth century, there seemed to be these polarized coalitions, this split, which has emerged in Arabia and Syria between particular groups? If we're talking about the fourth century, absolutely. So I mean, the intervening years between Zenobia and Mavia. It's certainly one of realigning of various alliances and factions. And one of the positions that some scholars have put forward is, of course, that you have the Quda in the north and the Ma'ad in the south, or the Federati serving Rome. And then you have

the Medine Saracens, who more or less have a relationship with the Persians, but otherwise are somewhat independent. And what ends up happening throughout the fourth century is you get a crystallization and a concentration of Arabic-speaking tribes in the north, specifically in greater Syria, North Arabia. It includes tribes like, as you mentioned, the Tanukhids, Kalb, later on Ghassan, etc. Very, very prominent names that, again, they're known for serving Rome, right? Their identity really goes through that conduit. And in the south, I would say, or, you know, you have an alliance between the Himyarites in the deep south, in South Arabia,

and Kindah in the center. And again, these where we say center and south, these are really interchangeable, not interchangeable, but mutable, especially when you have nomadic tribes. But that alliance with Kindah and Himyar really stands as a block. And they build up this alliance that we call Ma'ad. So over the course of the fourth century, what ends up happening is these identities slowly but surely solidify. And this is something, again, we don't have good evidence of. We have some inscriptions here and there, but I would argue that in the north, the Quda'a alliance or coalition becomes predominantly Christian. And the Ma'at alliance, there are certainly Christian as well as Jewish influences, but with the conversion of Hamir, the Hamirite kings, to Judaism, that I think is significant.

And I think it's not significant in and of itself, because I think it is significant that the Qudaa in the north are Christian, and that the Ma'at in the south are Jewish, and that that choice is also deliberate, that being Jewish, part of the Jewish identity is being anti-Qudaa, and part of the Qudaa identity is being anti-Ma'ad. This has ramifications later on when we look at, of course, what we call Ayam al-Arab, the days of the Arabs. This is the pre-Islamic warfare that preceded Islam. Of course, it's overblown. And again, it's part of the legendary history of pre-Islamic Arabia. But I think that the buildup to it is the fracturing of Arabian society into Qudar and Ma'at. So it's actually quite significant. It's sort of these two sleeping giants that sort of rise later on. Two sleeping giants indeed. And as you say, they will certainly

rise later on. And this kind of fills in that background to the main character of our podcast today, Mavia or Mawia. And we kind of mentioned this in our introductory talking, but let's just go back to the sources quickly for Mavia. What types of sources do we have for this figure? I would say we have three types of sources for Mavia. One is we have an inscription dated 425 from Anasartha or an Arabic Hanasir, which is northern Syria, just south of Aleppo. It's dated 425 and it's a Greek funerary inscription. So someone's buried here or, you know, commemorating somebody there. And of course, it cites a Mavia, right? And this is understood to be our Mavia.

Now, the name Mavia does occur a handful of times, broadly speaking, in the Arabic sources. But if we back up again to the inscriptions, it's really, really rare. Like, what other Mavia could it be? And again, we have historians and scholars who have sort of debated this. And for now, the academic position is that this Greek funerary inscription in northern Syria is commemorating the death of our Mavia in the year 425. listen, for now, the academic position is that this Greek funerary inscription in northern Syria is commemorating the death of our Mavia in the year 425. If that's the case, she lived a long life. And if she did see action, maybe as early as 375, up till 425, we're talking about a 50-year

reign or so. That's one source is the inscription. The other sources, I would say, are Greco-Roman literary sources, the most important of which is Sosimene of Gaza, who I mentioned, dies in 450. He's a great source for things occurring in greater Syria and Arabian peoples prior to Islam. He does talk about Mevia and, you know, he speaks, I don't want to say highly, but I think here in the other church fathers are rather relieved that she is a proto-Orthodox proponent of Christianity. And then the third source that we have, of course, are the Arabic sources. And included therein are stories of her in association with a famous legendary or semi-historical Arab poet known as Hatim al-Ta'i. And Hatim is his name.

And he is of the tribe of Ta'i, which is, again, part of the Quda'a block. And the Syriac-speaking Christians knew the Arabs primarily as Tayyaya, the Tayyite Arabs from the tribe of Ta'i. So there's, you know, sort of all sorts of echoes of, you know, historicity here and there. But she is, in the Arabic sources, described as, in some cases, semi-queenly or, you know, a regal wife of Hatim al-Ta'i, who is known for his generosity. He's known as Akram al-Arab. He's the most generous of the Arabs. And she's his wife. So the idea, of course, in the sources is that, you know, there's going to be all sorts of lessons that we learn about generosity through him and his wife. Either his wife is badgering him because he's giving away their wealth

or other stories of that nature. So there are a whole lot of legends about, in the sources, Mawiyah bint Afzar of Tanakh. So that's her name in the sources. It's, you know, Her name is a little bit different and her genealogy is, I think, made up, but she is associated with Hatim al-Ta'i. And this character is, I would say, of the 6th century. So the memory of Mabiah from the 4th and early 5th century survives another 150 years in the memory of the Arabic speaking sources that are recorded again,

you know, in Abbasid times. So it's kind of composite and all over the place if you can follow along. Fair enough. From one question to the next, and I apologize in advance because I do sometimes ask the very, very difficult, sometimes tricky questions at the start. And this is definitely one of them, I feel, because it's sometimes so difficult to know much about this part of a person's life in ancient history. Emran, do we know much, if anything, about Mavia's background at all? The quick answer, again, is no. And in this case, even more so because we don't really have any sources about her other than the funerary inscription and memories later on by Greek and Arabic speaking

sources. So what have people surmised or what have researchers proposed? You know, we have a handful of Tanukhid kings in service of Byzantium. And we have, you know, some of their names are like An-Numan, Malik ibn Fahm, Jadima ibn Malik, Al-Hawari, Jadima. Again, some of these names, again, are made up. They relate to qualities of appearance or a lesson that needs to be learned. So we really don't know. Again, what are some more stories? In the Arabic sources, some of the stories about her posit that she was a slave girl and that she sort of seduced her way to the top or she was lifted by the king, or she was part of a harem. I'm very skeptical about that. And the reason I'm skeptical about that is because

these are all topoi. These are methods of telling a story which repeat themselves over and over again. The slave girl who rises through the ranks and becomes queen or head consort or something of that nature. So we don't really know. What I would say again is I think she's a noble woman. She comes of noble blood. And she was the wife of the king of Tanuch. And the king of Tanuch again died an untimely death. And she inherited his power. This is something, of course, we've just discussed when it came to Zenobia. And it occurs elsewhere as well. It's a pattern within antiquity where women come to power through their husbands. And both of them come from nobility, but that's just a pattern of how women come into power, typically.

And so if that's the case, if she does come to power via this method, which is very, very similar to Zenobia, who we've talked about before, let's say, very, very similar to Zenobia, who we've talked about before. How does she go from being in command of a people who are allied to Rome, who have been allied to Rome for some time, to going to war against the Roman Empire, this superpower to the West? Yeah, it really is fascinating because it's not one that is really predictable. It's one, I think think that we have to keep in mind one thing collectively as historians, all of us, is the role of opportunity. People can be great, but I think circumstances sometimes can be greater. And what happens in this case is that Valens is, the conventional wisdom is, he's looking for recruits across the Oriens, because he has to fight the Goths, these Germanic tribes bearing down on him. And they do ultimately, you know, fracture the empire and break half of it off. So justifiably so. And in doing so,

of course, ruffles the feathers of the Tanuchids, including Mavia. And we don't know, again, the circumstances of when that occurs. Does it occur with some king named Malik or was Mavia already in power at that time? But what we do know is she decides for whatever reason to take a stand and say, you know what, I'm going to assert my identity and the identity of my people and the identity of my church or my beliefs against the empire. Again, that's a huge, what a position to take. We don't really know why. Maybe other researchers can dig deeper and figure that out. I will not hazard a guess, right? But that happened. And she had, of course, stunning military victories. And the precise details of her battles are not so important

right now. I mean, she won, of course, battles within the Oriens. Some would say even trekking the same path as Zenobia when it came to maybe even going towards Egypt. And it informs us a little bit about her motivation. Within the sources, there are reports that she attacked a monastery in Sinai or on the fringes of Egypt and massacred the abbot or the monks that were serving, that were just sort of worshiping in their devotion. And this is striking. Why would a good Christian woman fighting for her beliefs do this? And this, of course, raises the point that, well, was she Christian at all? And then the answer is probably not, right? So it's complex. She's fighting to establish what we later on describe as an Arabic church, but she herself may not have been herself a card-carrying Christian. And again, it takes

time for us to wrap our brain around, but for her and others like her, and even after her, Christianity may have indeed been part and parcel of just, you know, being Arab or being Talukhid, and not so much a conviction or a doctrine that would take you to the next life. That in and of itself requires lots of discussion, but that's not unheard of. And you know, it happens again, when we talk about Islamic conversion, a whole lot of Arab tribes converted to Islam because of all sorts of political and economic reasons. This is something similar. And her number one goal was to beat the Romans. She wanted to conquer, which she did in stunning victories. After she did this, she empowered a virtually no-name anchorite or monk of Arab origin

whose name is Moses. We believe this is his name. He came out of the Sinai, presumably, and served Mavia as the bishop of the Arabs. And presumably, he, of course, served within greater Syria, maybe around Aleppo, or maybe further south, we don't know. But as a result of his pioneering bishopric, right, or his episcopate, you have a series of other Arab tribes joining this new faith. So you have to ask, why did this woman enter history in this way? And why did she live such a strong imprint? And I think that had to do with just a need to defend her people, assert her identity and compete with other peoples in this Roman world. And there's great research again by Philip Wood, actually. So he has his book on We Have No King But Christ, and looks at the fifth century, the fourth and fifth century,

especially the Syriac speaking churches. But to be part of a church in this time, in Syria, in Egypt, in Arabia, in Mesopotamia, your church was your nationality. To say you were Coptic meant you were Egyptian. To say you were Syriac meant that you were Syrian. To say that you were Arab meant that you were part of an Arab church. That's something we need to fill in that gap and actually articulate that idea in order to debate it. There are stories to tell, myths to explore, legends that shaped the medieval world to captivate the imagination. I'm Matt Lewis, and with my co-host, Dr Kat Jarman, I've gone medieval.

We're waiting here for you to join us. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and let everyone know that you've gone medieval with History Hit. Emma, and it's so interesting, and we will definitely be going back to that very quickly, but what I found really fascinating there, and this might just be my military history roots here, is that the strength of this figure and the people who followed her, as you said, she seems to win several victories. And then poor old Valens, it's not as if Mavius sued for peace.

It sounds as if the Romans are the ones that sued for peace. Valens, he's already got this trouble in the north with the Goths. He will ultimately, if memory serves me right, he will be killed at the Bast of Adrianople against the Goths in the late 4th century. But in the meantime, because maybe we think of the Goths too much, we forget about Mavia and the great troubles that she caused Valens, which ultimately ends up with the Romans being forced to sue for peace with Mavia in the east. Yes. So that was well stated by you. And I think it's right in its place.

Military history sees, I think, a seismic moment in Mavia and with Valens as well. As you mentioned, the Battle of Adrianople is a catastrophe for the Eastern Romans, right? They lose miserably and the Goths just sort of bludgeon them to death. Prior to that, of course, the victories that Mavia wins against Valens. You're also making me sort of think about it myself. The Romans have to come to terms with Mavia and the Saracens, right? They're not able to fight on two fronts and they're not able to fight a foe who is so strong and prepared to fight to the death, such as Mavia and the Tanukhids. And again, there's also within the sources clues that she

brought in some of the Kelbids, also her native tribe as well. The Tanukhids, of course, belonging to her husband, and other tribes as well, other tribes of the Qudaa. So the Arabs were united. You know, it's an interesting time to think about certain kinds of union within Arabia. Because I know, again, whenever we talk about Arabia and united Arabia, this is like everyone's hair goes up and it's a huge subject of debate. But I don't think it's too much to say that Valens was up against more than just one Arab tribe in an outpost. They were organized enough to stand and win.

And as a result, of course, Mavia had to, of course, cut a deal. And there's a story, actually, of course, with her daughter, Hasidet. And this name, of course, is a Syriac-speaking name, also in Semitic has to do with love and commitment and loyalty. So again, the name may be real, it may be imagined, but her daughter marries a Roman officer by the name of Victor. And if it's true, this is the first marriage between a Roman and an Arab of certainly of this caliber. So again, this is a moment in history, right? It's unrepeated. But this marriage does facilitate an alliance with Rome. So it's sort of like, I don't know what

they say about love and war. There's all sorts of sayings. But you know, you have to be both a lover and a fighter to win. And I think that that's what happens here is after the military victory, Mabia does give her daughter, so to speak, in marriage to the Romans. And there's a fruitful relationship as far as we know. Her daughter, Fasida, does die in battle later on, presumably, as far as we know. Her daughter, Hasidut, does die in battle later on, presumably, if not in Adrianople, then somewhere else in the Balkans. And then the victor, of course, does erect a funerary monument in her honor, because, of course, by that time, she's a Roman citizen. That is Hasidut. So it's a very interesting saga and an epic between, you know, the Romans and the Arabs. Valens himself, unfortunately, his legacy, you

know, in Roman history is not as splendid. It's not great. Yeah, it's not great. Right? He went down in flames in Adrianople, but the Arabs lived to fight another day. Absolutely. Let's elaborate away because it almost seems as if, as you say, the fighting against Rome, this resistance against Rome, but then the healing of relations with this marriage, the restoring of sending troops to Rome, and he said, Mavia, Roman citizenship. It seems like she navigated it perfectly to see the sustaining, could we say, and the creation of an Arab church and what she wanted in her kingdom. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I think that was, again, very clearly stated and underappreciated in our study of history, that you can have a woman who is relatively unknown and who can militarily beat the Romans and then make peace with Rome and then sustain an ongoing alliance.

and on top of that, build a church. So this is why, again, I embarked on this project. And there are a couple of other notes that we could consider with this respect. Namely, of course, is her legacy in the Arabic sources as well. I think there's actually more that's untapped, right? So I think that someone of this caliber and her legacy was widespread and well-known. And I'll give you a couple of examples. So within the Arabic sources, we know of the kings of Lachn, the Al-Manathira, where a lot of their kings went by the name Mundir. And one of them, of course, Al-Mundir III, Ibn al-Nu'man, who dies in 554. So we're talking about a little bit more than a century after Mavia's passing. His mother's name is Mawiyah as well, right?

Her name is Mawiyah bin Tauf ibn Jushan. Now, she's not that well known either, but she goes by the nickname Ma'isama. Now, that's interesting because Ma'isama literally means waterfall from heaven. All of these are plays on words that go back to the name Mawiyah or Maviyah. What other Maviyah do we have that is of prominence other than our Maviyah? There is none. So she was famous. She was important. She was powerful. She was known to the Arabs as an icon. In the case of the second Maviyah here, the Lachmid one, I'm proposing here she planted the seeds of a renaissance and actually paganism, but that's maybe a subject

for another day. But we have, of course, in the Arabic sources, as I've mentioned, stories of our Mawiyah, Mawiyah bin Tafzir, as she's named. She's given this legendary persona, and she has interactions with all sorts of Arab poets and conquerors and the menu of chivalrous men in Arabia. Al-Nabiti, Hatim al-Ta'i, Al-Nabira, who's a very, very famous Arabic poet. When we see Arabs today and they're very eloquent, we call them Nabira. When we see generous Arabs, we call them Hatim. But we don't seem to see great women and then call them

Mavia. But that's what's going on in the background. And one thing that's important to keep in mind is whether it's the Arabic sources or other sources, they're written by men and they're written really for an edifice of either the church or Islamic tradition, which tends to, if not extract women from their own place, their earned place of power, then it's to diminish them or sort of badmouth them in other ways, or to just sort of put them in the background. And that unfortunately did happen systematically with Mavia and others. So I document some of that in the book. And unfortunately, that's why we know so little about her is because, you know, she's been really trimmed down to size rather than kept in her opulent place. Do we know for how long, let's say, Mawiyah's legacy really survives?

In full might be the wrong word, but is it seen from the sources that her name, this idea that she's maybe even a mother of the Arab church and all of that in Arabia. Do we think it starts to wane, shall we say, is it with the coming of Islam to Arabia or is it later? When do you think we start seeing her legacy starting to fade away? One way of tackling this question, or at least trying to get at it, is looking at the name Mawiyah. it is looking at the name Mawiyah. And so you look at the Arabic sources and we can check Ibn al-Kalbi and other sources, genealogical lists of names. And we do have a handful of names. And there is, of course, a subgroup, shall we say, a tribal subgrouping named Mavia. There is also a location called Mawia. But all indications are really after the advent of Islam, the name really falls out of fashion. So I think that, again, her legacy is rather short-lived. Having searched the sources, other than just finding

some dribs and drabs here and there, there's really nothing. There's not much. We only have a handful of women called Maviyah in the Arabic sources, which again, in the case of Ibn al-Kalbi, you're talking about ninth century, Asfahani a couple of centuries later. It's like five names. That's really nothing. So there are no great Islamic women

with the name Mawiyah. And if there are some, I'm happy to be educated. But again, their legacy is not well enough to be known by others. We are bringing that legacy back today in this podcast. It's going to take the world by storm, Emran. Just before we finish off there, of course, we started with Zenobia and we talked about Zenobia during this podcast alongside Maviyah.

But when we look at these two revolts, and we've kind of talked about it a little already, but let's go into a bit more depth. But when we look at these two revolts, and we've kind of talked about it a little already, but let's go into a bit more depth. I mean, how does Mavia's revolt compare to that of Zenobia's, say, a few decades earlier or a century earlier? In the case of Zenobia, the military historians will know even in better detail than I, Zenobia suffered a shattering defeat in Homs, in Emesa. And that really sort of broke the back of the Palmyrene Empire. It was over at that point. And I think that part of the reason was that Palmyra as an entity and Zenobia as an empress, as a sovereign, as a regent, was very much Roman,

an empress, as a sovereign, as a regent, was very much Roman, like 100% Roman, right? Other than the ethnic undertones and, you know, the Arabic and Aramean subtext, she believed herself to be the next empress of Rome. It's very simple. So she fought and pitched battles. She had a large army. She had the four men that she delegated all her authority to, Zabdai, Zabdas, and a couple of others. They were all, of course, ethnically Palmyrene of Semitic, mixed Semitic origin. But it was all done in Roman fashion. Palmyra was a city with its own senatorial structure, and it was organized as a Roman city, the trade, of course, as a Roman metropole. So I think that when you lose a battle, again, I'm going to defer to the military and Roman historians on this, but if it's in pitch battle and one army beats another army, that's defeat. However, when you're talking about someone like Mavia, you're talking about sort of guerrilla warfare and tribal hit and run tactics. And again, I defer to military historians on this as well, but victory is not as easily had or defined. Even the attack of the monastery in the Sinai that's purported to be her work. That's

again, sort of a hit and run tactic. It was a raid. And again, in Arabic, this is known in even early Islamic history, of course, the Ghazwa. This was the signature of Arab tribal warfare. It's not pitched battle. It was raids. And this has happened throughout Roman history. You know, the heavy Roman garrisons going out into battle and fearsome, no doubt, but cumbersome to maneuver and not well suited to hit and run tactics. So I think that that was the big, big difference between Mavia and Zenobia was that in the case of nomadic structures that hit and run and were able to one up their much larger, probably more powerful adversary, the Romans, who at that time just happened to be down on their luck. Again, I would say opportunity and luck have a huge role to play.

Don't they always with military ventures? And you've also mentioned the Moses, this figure closely associated with Mavia during her life and her war with Rome and what happens afterwards. But is Mavia's close connection to a male prophet? You've mentioned Simon of Samus Arta before with Zenobia. Does this feel like it's a theme we see quite regularly with female rulers in late antique Arabia, in late antique Near East? What a great question. And this is actually why I wrote the book in the first place, is I didn't write this particular book because I thought Mavavia was great. She is. I wrote this book because I detected a certain pattern of behavior. Why is it that we have someone of the stature of Zenobia protecting, as it were, this churchman, right? Paul of Samosata. Now, what dog do I have in this race?

If we fast forward, if we look at Mavia again, who we've talked about extensively, and her introduction and propping up of this no-named monk named Moses, again, what is going on over here? And I would fast forward another 150 years or so, and we look at the illustrious example of Lady Khadija in Mecca and her third husband, who we know as Muhammad, who is the founder of Islam. I look at these three examples and I just, I think that there is something significant that needs to be assessed, analyzed, investigated. And I'll say tentatively, I can share with you and your listeners now, I think throughout late antiquity and again, Roman and Persian warfare have a lot to do with this. You're dealing with a society, namely Arabia, where women to a significant degree enjoyed various degrees of autonomy.

They married themselves without any guardian. They divorced themselves autonomously. They owned property. They had wealth, again, in varying degrees, depending on different communities throughout the society. This cannot be taken for granted when you look just left or just right. I mean, there are all sorts of complaints about, you know, Rome being sort of limiting the role of women and conquering Etruscan women and diminishing the role of tribal structures where women are more prominent. And it's known even among the sources that barbarian peoples tend to have women who are

a little bit more rowdy and rambunctious. That's exactly right. That's the point. And that's what Arabia represents. But over the course of late antiquity, one thesis that I'm making is the more Arabia became Romanized, Judaized, Christianized, all the, I dare not say hegemonic, but you know, patriarchal structures tend to be introduced. Women slowly but surely lost the kind of power that we take for granted or that I've just described. And again, that's something we can debate. And as a result, when you see very, very powerful women, when I say Zenobia and Mevia and

Khadija, you're talking about the most powerful women in Arabian history, right? There are no more powerful women during this time. So why is it? You know, they're snuffed out. They're gone. Before they go, what I argue is they do delegate some of that power to a man that they trust. They can only delegate it to a man because this is not a world for women. What would Mavia do delegating it to another woman? They would have no authority. But if it's to a holy man, a church man, a prophet, somebody might listen. And those are sort of the beginnings of the thesis. So do we know if Moses is this figure for Mavius? Do we know what happens to Moses, therefore, after the war with Rome and during Mavius' later life?

And indeed, if he outlives Mavius? So quick answer is we don't really know. We don't have a death date for him. In the case of Moses, he is described, of course, by Sosaman as someone who is incredibly pure and very skeptical of Roman bishops. When I say Roman here, I mean Greek speaking. So there are stories in there about him sort of in conflict with the existing Greek speaking bishop in Egypt and ouster, and then Moses stepping into the picture. And it's really, really unclear, but I've argued a little bit that he does set the stage for later conversions of Arabs slash Saracens, right? We don't know when he dies. The conventional wisdom is that he is in greater Syria. It's either just east of Palestine in the Transjordan or in the vicinity of Aleppo, where he is working to convert the masses to Christianity. That does happen. And I think

that's likely insofar that he's historical. I think that it did happen. To what extent we don't know. And when does he pass? We also don't know. Does he outlive Mavia? Also unclear. But I do want to mention one thing that, of course, he paves the way for other Arab holy men operating under the Nicene churches. And they include, you know, his West Syrian successors, Maras of Anasartha, again in the north, who was named in the Synod of the Avantiak in 445. And his East Syrian successors, Barhad Sabah of Holwan, Bat Arbaia, which is in Mesopotamia in the 7th century, and famously George Bishop of the Arabs and other places that, you know, you find Syriac-speaking church fathers working intimately with Arabs. I think that Moses and Mavia plant very, very deep roots that make that possible.

And if we speak to researchers on Syriac-speaking Christianity or the Eastern churches, you can almost take for granted that the Syriac church fathers are converting the Saracens. And they're building basically on the legacy of Moses. There you go. This forefather, as it were. Emren, this has been a great chat. Just before we completely wrap up, is there anything else you'd like to mention, to highlight about Mavie or about Moses or about this period in ancient history

that you find particularly fascinating that we haven't yet covered? One thing we might want to keep in mind, it's hypothetical. Within the Arabic sources, in the genealogical collections of Ibn Sa'd and others after him, we have, of course, the genealogical structure which puts Adnan versus Qahtan. Adnan is the name of the North Arabian patriarch,

and Qahtan being that of South Arabia. And the long story short is, I think that it's worth researching the contribution of Mavia to basically this dichotomy. And instead of thinking all the time of who are the two men that represent the ancient origins of North Arabs and South Arabs, we might want to think about a woman as well. And we might want to think about Christianity and the role of the church as well. So over the course of, you know, the past 30, 40, 50 years, maybe even longer, scholars have been prudent enough to realize that these genealogies are largely fictional or a sort of echoes of history. But we haven't gone the next step to think, well, what could be in its place? And again, I would say that Qudaa and Ma'ad, which we discussed

in the beginning of our interview, are significant. And in that environment, thinking about Christianity and thinking about Judaism, and later on thinking about Mavia and thinking about other kings and queens may be something that researchers want to look into. You may have a matriarch of North Arabia, you don't know. Well, that is a thought, as you say, for the future and for now and for the future. Indeed, Emran, this has been an awesome chat. Last but certainly not least, your book upcoming on this topic, it is called? The title is always changing, but for now it's called Queens and Prophets, The Making of Late Antique Arabia. Just hang in there and I'll hopefully have some good news, I hope, soon. We'll be hanging in there, my friend. No worries about that. Emran, thank you so much for taking the

time to come on the podcast. Thank you so much, Tristan. I appreciate it and look forward to talking again soon. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push.

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