The Ancients - Menka: Village of the Breadfruit Goddess

Episode Date: November 25, 2021

It is one of the most remote ancient sites in the world. Situated on the isolated Micronesian island of Kosrae are the ruins of an ancient religious centre called Menka, also known as the Village of the Breadfruit Goddess. From temples to monumental statues to 'the painted cave,' Menka was an incredibly important site for Kosrae's ancient communities. Many mysteries, however, still abound.To talk through what we know about Menka and its archaeology, we're joined once again by Dr. Felicia Beardsley, a Professor at the University of La Verne. Felicia is an expert on the archaeology of Micronesia and featured on a previous Ancients podcast all about Nan Madol, 'Venice of the Pacific': https://podfollow.com/the-ancients/episode/bcae15d73136dac4ace88c48db17dcf43c16cfb5/view

Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like The Ancients ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. And in today's podcast, well, I can't think of many other sites in the ancient world that are more remote than the one that we're talking about today. Because we're going to the ancient Pacific yet again, we're

going to eastern Micronesia, to the island of Khosrai and a site which is known as the village of the breadfruit goddess, also known as Menka or the ruins of Menka. Now, the whole island of Khosrai and its ancient history is absolutely extraordinary when you consider that people might have been living there for some 2,000 years. And Menka, this site in the interior of Kozrai, seems to have been of critical importance for those ancient communities of Kozrai. Now to talk through what we know about the site, looking at the archaeology and the oral traditions that survive, I was delighted to get back on the podcast Dr. Felicia Beardsley from Laverne

University. Now, the name might ring a bell because Felicia came on the podcast a few months back to talk all about the site of Nan Madol, the Venice of the Pacific, situated off the island of Pompeii. Now, Menka, this is one of Felicia's favourite sites in the Pacific. And you're going to hear in this podcast the passion that she has for talking all about its archaeology, all about its ancient history. So without further ado, here's Felicia. Felicia, it is wonderful to have you back on the podcast. Well, Tristan, thank you for asking me back. to have you back on the podcast. Well, Tristan, thank you for asking me back.

You already know I'm going to love talking about the Pacific and all these incredible ancient sites that are out there. I mean, absolutely. We had to get you back on after Namadol. That was an awesome podcast in itself. And there's so many more ancient sites, as you've just said there in Micronesia. But Felicia, of all the ancient sites, this one we're talking about today, Menka, this does seem to be one very close to your heart.

This is, I think, my favorite site in Micronesia and in the Pacific, in part because it's so unique. One of the things that's unique about Menka is that it is a place of history. about Menka is that it is a place of history. It is a place that's recorded in oral history, and you can link stories to an actual physical, tangible place. And at the same time, it's very enigmatic. Menka is considered the village of the breadfruit goddess, Sinlaku, the breadfruit goddess, on the island of Kosrai in the center of the breadfruit goddess, Sinlaku, the breadfruit goddess, on the island of Kosrae in the center of the Pacific, a little pinprick on the map in the Pacific, in the Federated States of Micronesia. And yet, even though it plays a large role in the island's oral history, nobody could tell me what it looked like. Nobody could say, it looks like this. You know, there are

temples there, or maybe a temple or two temples or multiple temples. There's a throne of the goddess that's there. Nobody could say what it looked like, because for at least a century, nobody had seen it. It had been completely overgrown with vegetation. It's a brilliant story and we'll definitely get on to what you and your archaeological teammates have been working on at the site in the past decade or so, finding more about the site. And I mean, just to highlight there from what you were saying, this island of Khosra that we're talking about now. out now. So this small island in Micronesia, are we right in saying that it's very much an isolated island in the Pacific, hundreds of miles away from the next nearest landmass? It really is. And in the centre of the Pacific, most of the islands that you have are coral islands, atolls. So they're very low islands, basically built on coral reefs. Kosrae is a volcanic island, which is unusual for that part

of the Pacific. And you're right, it is hundreds of miles away from any other island. It's hundreds of miles away from Pohnpei, where Namadol is, which is also a volcanic island. It's hundreds of miles away from the Marshall Islands, kind of the next closest set of islands. It's hundreds of miles away from the Marshall Islands, kind of the next closest set of islands. It's hundreds of miles away from Kiribati. Again, hundreds of miles away, but yet the closest, right? And we'll say a couple of thousand miles away from the western part of Micronesia, and in particular, the island of Yap, which is a continental island, even though it's an island, it's a continental island, but it has ties to Kosrae. And there are hundreds, no, we'll say thousands of little coral islands between Yap and Kosrae. So the western

part of the Pacific to the center part of the Pacific, which is unique because we have oral histories on Kosrai that say, well, when our goddess left our island, when she fled our island, she went to Yap. And on Yap, you'll have families and family histories that say, well, we've got this unique connection with Kosrai. We skip everything else in between. But between Kosrae and us, we've got this nice partnership. We have this alliance and it's an alliance that is generations deep. So it is isolated. Absolutely. I mean, Felicia, those distances are absolutely insane. I mean, do the oral histories or archaeology that survives, keeping on the background a bit more and about the people who would have been at Menka in ancient history, do we know much about the ancient population who lived on Khosrau? For instance, first of all, do we know when people first reached this isolated island in Micronesia? people first reached this isolated island in Micronesia?

Every indication that we have are that people arrived probably about 2,000-ish years ago. And we say ish because it could be 2,000 years ago, it could be 2,500 years ago, but we're safe by saying 2,000 years ago. And we know this because of the introduction of a variety of taro, for one thing. So different kinds of plants that start showing up at about that same time, which also show up in tandem with charcoal, right? They actually had to burn some of the tropical forest in order to begin planting taro, in order to begin planting some of their prize and premier food plants, including breadfruit, including breadfruit, right? But it's interesting too that when you look at the archaeology on Kosrae, it is a completely low island cultural kit. Even though coast rye is a high island, it's a

volcanic island, right? All of the cultural attributes, all of the cultural features, all of the cultural tools are the same kind of tools that you see on low islands, on coral islands. The way, instead of pottery, as an example, they have a culture that's built around the use of baskets. Pottery requires a clay source. Okay, Coasterize a volcanic island, it has clay, right? But its cultural kit, its idea of what it means to live on an island and live in a place comes from a low island, from a coral island where there is no clay. And on those kinds of places, you have a culture that's built around baskets, that's built around earth ovens, right? Compared to the western part of Micronesia, the far western part of the Pacific, places like Yap. You have pottery. That's pottery that's used to cook with, that's used to store things in, that's used in everyday

activities. You don't use earth ovens in Yap. You have cooking stoves, right? So the use of earth ovens is something that's unique and found on low islands, right? It's a cultural trait. Other kinds of cultural traits are the kinds of foods people like to eat that are part of the subsistence regimen of the community. On Kosrae and on the low islands, they're accustomed to eating pandanus. Pandanus is, it's actually really good. So it's really, it's almost like eating candy. And the pandanus leaves are used in making baskets and other kinds of mats and, you know, grass skirts and clothing and so on. and clothing and so on. In the Western Pacific, pandanus is considered poisonous. You only use the fiber, right? You never eat it because, oh, you know, that's the bad thing. That's poison.

You don't ever touch it. You don't ever eat it. But yet in the center of the Pacific, in the coral islands, you eat it. And I think in part, maybe it was eaten because it was around. And honestly, living in very remote places, you kind of eat what's there. And it's not just ancient populations. It's today, too. I mean, when I would be living in these villages while doing my work on the island, honestly, you eat what's there or you eat what's delivered at your doorstep. And then you get accustomed to the different kinds of food and you realize there's not a lot that you can't eat. I mean, absolutely. And let's talk about breadfruit for a bit longer because, of course, you said the name of Menka

is the village of the breadfruit goddess. So it does kind of sound like, doesn't it, you know, right from the start, breadfruit being a really important foodstuff that the first people who arrived at Khosrae probably brought with them. They did. And every indication is that this was one of the key starae probably brought with them. They did. And every indication

is that this was one of the key staples that they brought with them. Breadfruit is like the core element in the subsistence regimen. It is the core food. This is the food that you fall back on. Your taro gardens can be inundated with salt water, which ruins the taro, because those are root crop and the water table could potentially become contaminated through storms mainly with salt water. Breadfruit, though, continues to persist no matter what. And it comes in a whole variety of different types. variety of different types. And you consume it as, you know, you can bake it, you can boil it,

you can mash it up in the equivalent of a kind of a poi. You know, in Hawaii has poi, but the West, the Micronesian Islands have something that's equivalent to poi. So you can mash it up, you can ferment it, you can store it. So there would be breadfruit pits that would be fermented breadfruit. It's called like cheese. You know how cheese is made here in Europe? It's fermented milk for the most part. You do the same thing but with breadfruit and it's considered a survival food. So in times of typhoons when you can't find taro when it's difficult to fish you always have this last resort kind of food so taro was the everything kind of food for people in this part of the pacific i mean absolutely absolutely it's very much the staple and if we therefore then focus in we've

talked about the background of Khosrae the island itself and what about Menka itself where is Menka on the island of Khosrae so Menka is actually located in the very center of the island and it doesn't seem like that when you're actually hiking into it when you need to like get to it. But when you place it on a map, and you look at it from that bird's eye view, it's actually probably in dead center in the island. It's Mount Finkel, right? That is the key mountain on the island. It's not that high, but it's the highest place on the island. It's about 600 meters above mean sea level, which isn't that high compared to mountains on continents. But Manca is at the very foot of this. It is, you know, basically the headwaters

of the Finkel River that emanates from Mount Finkel. So dead center in the island, it is the place where the priests, the minions, the servants of the goddess could move from Menka, the village, to any part of the island in a fairly rapid way. And it's also the place where oral histories say that the goddess could move from her village to any other village on the island in the blink of an eye. That's how fast she moved. And from that, therefore, is it to get an image in our mind of ancient Khosrae. So you have this Menka, this location right in the centre of the island. But the communities of these early people, would they have been scattered around? It sounds like they would have been scattered around the edges of the island, as it were, more like coastal communities.

Yes. And so the early settlement of Kosrae begins on the western and southwestern coast. These are considered the oldest sites, the oldest lineages, the first settlements on the island. And from there, gradually, as population begins to increase, you start seeing settlements expanding around the coast. And the coastal settlement is important because this is access to the ocean. It's access to resources. It's a safe place. You can see who's coming, but it also has access to the interior. And as populations begin to expand and kind of get concentrated on the coast, they then start working inland, but inland up the river drainages. And so you begin to see settlements along the edges, the banks of

rivers and in river valleys. And these river valleys gradually work upstream, right, to toward their sources in the center of the island where Menke is. So they gradually work their way up to these points. Now it's very steep on the interior of the island. And there's very few places like Menke where you can actually access it from the coast all the way to the center of the island. Anywhere else, you basically run into cliffs by the time you get to the headwaters of the river valleys that the settlements are running into. headwaters of the river valleys that the settlements are running into. Now, along the interfluvial ridges, those ridges in between the river valleys that basically bound the river valleys and defined them, there are also some settlements along there. But these were predominantly places that were considered boundary areas that separated one river valley system from another

river valley system. You would have early in the history of Cozoray probably independent polities that occupied a single drainage system and in those polities you would have related families for the most part, related lineages that would be scattered throughout that river drainage and pretty concentrated. Kosrae is a kind of place where if you're not running into some kind of wetland, then you're running into archaeology. It is just a very densely populated area. It is just a very densely populated area. But at the end points of these interfluvial ridges, you do have like lookout points. And it's phenomenal when you start looking at the entire settlement of this island.

You see the very end points of these interfluvial ridges, these lookout points. And some of them look like they had had, you know, major massive flames as if they were beacons in the night. But you could also from those points, see who's coming, right? Who's on their way into your polity, into your system, into your settlement area, your settlement zone. I mean, good viewing platforms indeed i mean talking about the ultimate viewing platform you mentioned this hill should i say a mountain maybe right next to the site of menka right in the center of the island i mean this might be an incredibly tricky question so if we don't know absolutely fine but you mentioned how these early settlements they start at the coast and they seem to work their way in lands do we have any idea when roughly let's say

menka might have been founded as a religious site as a religious location at this early stage in khosra's history like might it be that they found these settlements on the coast and then they create menka or it's after they've started going inland and founding settlements in lands that they then found this religious settlement right at the heart of the island. You're right. That's a tricky question because it gets us into oral histories more than anything else. Like when did she become the key goddess? Was she always a key goddess of the people who landed and settled on Kosrae? We don't know that. We know from the archaeology that the site of Menke becomes established at least by the 7th century AD, at least by then. Possibly earlier than that, if we look at the architectural styles that are present at this particular site, if we look at that, then we

could say it's probably earlier than the 7th century. In fact, we probably could go back at least 1500 years, potentially more than that, potentially more than that. Now, just a quick step backwards, this goddess, let's now focus on this goddess, this deity that was worshipped at this site. Who was this goddess? This goddess was one of the key goddesses in the pantheon of Khosra's deities. She does have a counterpart, a male counterpart, but we don't really hear a lot about him. He also had many of the powers that she did, but not the power or the gift of food. So she becomes essentially the mother, a mother goddess, I guess, of the people of Kosrae. So she's actually one of two key gods or deities for the island.

And yet most of the oral histories focus on her. So she becomes that goddess who protects the people of Kosrae, punishes the people of Kosrae, who guides them when they're lost, who also though maintains relationships with the other deities in the Pacific, which is how she ends up going to Yap or maintaining these relationships with Yap. She also is one of those goddesses or deities that basically looks over. And when I say guides the people of Kosrae. Kosrae was considered at one point in its distant past as the leader of Micronesia, the leader of the Western Pacific, right? So here she is, their goddess, who is kind of the leader, I guess, overall saying, I'll protect you, I will help you,

saying, I'll protect you, I will help you, I will aid you, as you then guide the rest of the Pacific in a kind of an inter-island alliance, right? And it's an alliance that is a lot like the alliance we see in the Indus Valley, right, in the Middle East, where it's not built on warfare, but it's built on economics. It's built on trade. It's built on true alliances, right? And in this alliance, different islands have different roles. There's a key role for Khosrai, and of course, led by Sinlaku, their goddess, and for Yap, so these twin leaders, right? Pompeii comes in as the leader of the maritime fleet, whereas Chuuk, another high island in this part of the Pacific, is considered like the administrator, right? The key accountant, as it were. And yet, you have a massive trading network where you see in places like Kosrae, a number of goods that you don't find on Kosrae coming in, like certain kinds of turmeric and

certain kinds of senate and certain kinds of shells that start coming in and appearing on Kosrae. on Kosrae. But that's back to the goddess, right? She is their ideal. She is, as I said, their protectress. She is the one that they invest all of their rites and rituals and liturgies in, in order to ensure that she stays happy and contented with the people of Kosrae, she stays happy and contented with the people of Khosrai so that she doesn't simply wipe them out at all. I mean, absolutely. Well, Felicia, let's keep on that, you know, finding artifacts on Khosrai dating to that ancient period that come from other places in Micronesia,

that idea of this great trading network, which is so, so interesting. I mean, from your work at Menka, have you any chance, have you found any objects there which seem to have come from a different island, which is archaeological evidence for this trading network, and that you have this evidence at Menka? One of the things that we've found at Menka in terms of artifacts are not necessarily trading goods, because it wasn't a trading place.

This was a religious site. This was the temple site. This is where you went to honor the goddess. We do find in other parts of Kosrae, in other sites, especially coastal sites and key coastal sites, we do find different kinds of shells from the Marshall Islands. We do find and have found in waterlogged sites, pieces of Senate that shouldn't be there, right, that don't come from Kosrae. So we have found different pearl shells as an example. And I can't think of the name of other types of shells, but they certainly show up. Also, this one particular site that is, it's on the eastern coast of Kosrae. And it's a place where statues were made. So it's an amazing site. But it's also a site that plays a role

kind of later in Kosrae's history. And it's a run-in with what became at the time the capital or the seat of the Paramount Sea. And this was Lella, which is an offshore site, monumental site, amazing site, right? But this one particular site is said to have been a place where the king, the Paramount chief, was ambushed and then buried. And in the burial, at the base of the burial, we found some exotic stones. So stones not from Khosrai, but these were exotic stones that had been carved. So again, places where things from outside come in, but they're usually in political sites in trading sites but not in

menke i mean felicia that's really interesting in itself because what i was really thinking of there was like this perhaps this idea of an ancient pilgrimage as it were like people from other islands and going to menke and depositing stuff their ritual goods or whatever to hoping to let's say have a good voyage back to their own islands but it sounds as you said from what you're saying there the archaeological evidence isn't there yet to reveal perhaps this ritual or religious practice at Menka shall we say no it's not what we see at Menka is a completely localized archaeology completely localized artifacts and materials. The kinds of artifacts we've found are artifacts that we see in other sites on the island, but not the kinds of artifacts we might see that come from off island. So this seems like a completely localized, I mean, maybe they just

wanted to keep her for themselves i know that's a possibility because who wouldn't want their own goddess come on maybe that's why it's stationed so far away from the coast to make sure that the people who are going to the islands are i don't want to go all the way up there that's their god yeah anyways yeah that's my two pence thrown into there from joe blog's point of view but looking at Menka and the layout of the site, if we now focus on the layout of the site from your work there, what materials were used to construct this ancient religious sanctuary? Menka is built with totally, completely localized materials.

So it has basalts. I mean, it's a volcanic island, so there's basalts everywhere. And Meike is in a place where there is actually a columnar basalt flow nearby. But most of the basalts and the materials used at Meike are basalt boulders. And this is also a very rocky part of the island. And in fact, in the next drainage over from the Menke River drainage, there are massive boulders. And so I'm sure some of those had been recruited into the architecture of Menke. So Menke, it's obviously stone architecture. There's a major use of boulders and anything that is present in the drainage, in the mangate drainage. And in fact, we would run across carved boulders that were too big to move,

but they were actually carved into what appear to be clan symbols, right? One boulder, I swear was like five meters in length right and it was carved into a giant clam right like a tridacna clam but back to the construction of Menke it's predominantly all basalts it's mostly boulders they are roughly fitted boulders and they are arranged in these kind of two room compounds so that there's two rooms that are connected one entry way and in one of the rooms not the room with the entryway but one of the rooms would have a stone platform and on this stone platform there's usually post holes, which would have supported probably a raised pole and thatch structure. The ethnographic studies and histories on the island suggest that these raised pole and thatch structures were actually sleeping houses, that people did most of their living outside, in more of the other room that you can enter into, right, that has an opening. But also,

because Menka is dedicated to the goddess, because we have stories about there being temples, there are two places that appear to be temple-like that, you know, for want of other words, we've simply labeled as temples. And one of them, this upper temple, has a very small two-room compound associated with it. But outside of it is a massive squared boulder with a somewhat concave surface. But every other surface around it on its sides are carved in this kind of raised relief pattern. We can't really tell what it is, but it's definitely a carved surface. Like every aspect, every part of this boulder is carved. And then nearby are very large carved boulders that appear to be clan symbols. There are, appear to be clan symbols. There are, you know, recognizable fish, as an example. There are turtles, there are eels, there's manta ray. So we see this key boulder that's kind of sitting

outside this compound, this residence, that has a direct line of sight to Mount Finkel, which becomes really important also. Important in oral histories in terms of the creation of Kosrae. So, it's a whole creation story. But that creation story is separate from the goddess, but at the same time related to the goddess. But, you know, there's this massive confusion as to how they're really, truly related and how the goddess truly comes to be the goddess. I mean, these huge carved stones. I mean, Felicia, forgive me if I'm barking up the wrong tree, but they almost sound like these monumental, megalithic remains of statues. They really are.

They are. to witch trials. Not, in other words, just the Tudors, but most definitely also the Tudors. Subscribe from History Hit wherever you get your podcasts. So what's interesting about Kosrae is that when Western explorers first landed on the island, they said Kosrae was different from all the other islands. This was a place where there were no idols. There were no statues. There was nothing that was decorative. There was no pottery. There was no figurines.

There was nothing. That decorative. There was no pottery. There was no figurines. There was nothing. That's what they said. But what we found in the archaeology is something completely different. Several years ago, my crew and I found a statue making site. This was phenomenal. This changed the history. We had no clue, but all of a sudden we were standing in the middle of this one particular site finel tokasha which had all the key markings of stone making stone working stone carving it was a beautiful site because i mean if you think about it the place where you make things are the place where you experiment but it's also the place where you make things are the place where you experiment, but it's also the place where you can have more leisure at decorating your site. And so you have these

incredibly elaborately carved stones and statues and figurines, but not just figurines that are carved stone, but figurines that also have clay applied to them. And in the clay are etchings, right, of details. So at Manke, we've got these, it's like stone carving on steroids. You are absolutely right when you say these are monumental, megalithic statues because they truly are especially at the upper temple site a minimum of about a meter in length that's a minimum right and we have at you know just a little bit more upslope from this upper temple site following a pathway that is marked, that is clearly a pathway that is lined with stones that take you to another kind of residential complex that is filled with platforms and these two-room compounds. In between that residential complex and the Upper Temple site is a massive

site is a massive carved boulder that's at least two meters high, nearly as wide, right, nearly two meters in diameter. And it has a face on two sides, like a Janus statue, right? So one face faces the residential complex. The other face faces the temple complex. So it's like an entry point, and it probably was an entry point with the people or the priests who were using this upper temple site, probably living in that residential area. It's also possible, some of the oral histories talk about Menka as being a very powerful site it's a place where leaders paramount chiefs never went because the magic was too strong if the magic is too strong they could be struck dead in an instant right so that was the fear so you sent your most powerful magicians, your most powerful priests, your most powerful mediators to this site. And they're the ones who probably stayed in these residential complexes, right? and perhaps a certain rite, annual rite. They would arrive, they'd create their household and perpetuate whatever rite or ritual needed to be perpetuated.

The lower temple site is similar in many respects, but it's much larger, much more massive. It also has an associated residential complex that is separated, again, by a giant head. Only it's a giant face that's carved into a cliff. So it is like three meters long. Felicia, I was imagining like an ancient Khosrae in Mount Rushmore there, but three meters in length. OK, got it.

Right. It is practically Mount Rushmore. Not maybe, maybe not as big. But these massive, you know, still, again, massive faces by comparatively speaking, OK, on an island that wasn't supposed to have any statues or any stone carving whatsoever. And then you find the interior of the island just jam-packed with them. I mean, we've got to keep on these statues, these depictions of people a bit longer. Because, Felicia, am I correct in saying that there is even one depiction of someone with a topknot? Yes.

of someone with a top knot. Yes. So in a very traditional man's hairstyle, they always had a top knot. Every man who had any kind of status would wear a top knot. So many of the statues that we find that appear to be more anthropomorphic, more human-like, seem to have a top knot. And they're very distinctive. You can see the rounding or the profile of the head, right? And then there's this little bump on top, right, that we've interpreted as a top knot. And it shows up in virtually any statue that's anthropomorphic. That's incredible. I thought there might have just been one, but if there's every statue, that's insane, insane felicia and i'm just trying to now get in a portrayal a depiction an image of menka in its prime like in the mind from what you're saying

there you have mount finkel in the center you have this upper complex temples you have these huge megalithic monumental statues but not only that as you said you have this road connecting the complexes together the upper with the lower the residential houses as well these different types of buildings religious buildings residential buildings these statues it seems to have been such an impressive sight when it was at its height i believe it was. I believe it was truly an incredible sight. The lower compound, we haven't even talked about the lower temple. The lower temple is larger than the upper temple. It has a, let's just start first with the outer residential neighborhood. These would be the equivalent, I think, of like mansions. Okay, maybe not big like mansions, but they were these really well-formed,

mostly double-room complexes. Each kind of separated one from the other along a raised bank that parallels the Mankay River. But at the same time, they are well-built. They are multi-tiered in terms of their construction. So they have multiple courses of stone. They are double retaining walls that surround these complexes, which is not what you see by the upper compound, by the upper temple. The upper temple has a single stone, but multi-levels attached to it.

I mean, that's a construction method, the architectural method. So the lower temple area has these really well-built, really well-designed houses. And some of them will have offering areas that would be built right outside their doors. These massive areas that had been lined by stone with these small upright stones surrounding them. So it's well defined. And you would then bring an offering of fish, breadfruit, whatever, and place it there for the people living in perhaps that community. Perhaps it was one step toward using them, this as an offering at the temple.

I'm not sure. But another one of these households had what's essentially a miniature piece of stone money, but out of basalt, right? So Yap is the island of stone money, but out of basalt, right? So Yap is the island of stone money, right? And if you think of Yap, and you think of those big aragonite or limestone, those big white wheels that have a hole in the middle of them, you know, they're described as stone money. Kosrae has the same thing, but it's in basalt. Again, right? Another unique connection with Yap in that sense. So outside, one of these residences in the neighborhood by the lower temple, one of the houses has this piece

of basalt stone money. I don't know if we can really attribute it and say it's actually stone money. If you want to be really archaeological, really scientific archaeological really scientific you'd say well it's a torus it's a donut shaped stone right but given the connections to yap maybe we can say it's stone money like stone money is it an imitation of stone money is this from yap did yap get the idea from kosrai? We don't know. And we can't say. So we start here. Now, as we proceed to the lower temple, we're going again along a road that is well defined. And we pass this massive face that is carved into a cliff, right? And it is the bizarrest phase. Okay, so I have to say, we didn't know it was there until one day we stopped at that point. We looked at this cliff, we decided we were going to just remove the vines that were covering the cliff. And as we removed the vines, there was this

face staring out at us. And it kind of took us by surprise, to be totally honest. I can imagine. Yeah. But so that's like saying, OK, we're entering this sacred space. So watch it, you guys. As you proceed, you then come to this massive complex. It is massive. There is a temple, well, what we've called a temple, that is in a single defined area that has a low wall around it. Inside this low, single defined area is a stone platform. The corners of the stone platform are what I've called Yappy's Corners because working on the archaeology of

Yap, one of the things that you see in the construction of the platforms or DAF are these corners that look like the prows of a canoe, right? They're these kind of upright sort of pointy corners. And it's the same kind of corners that show up on this one particular platform. And on that then is a multi-tiered semi-pyramidal structure, right, that is about three meters high overall. And in multiple levels, multiple layers. It seems to be all stone, like a stone mound that is built up in these levels, like you would see in a step pyramid among the Maya, right, as an example, or the step pyramids like the equivalent of some of the ziggurats in the Middle East. But built into the lowest tier, the lowest level, is this inset that appears to be kind of altar like that's all I can describe

it as and on this altar like area there was a small statue kind of at its rear and one of the things that we found kind of tucked in some stones underneath was a stone knife. So again, it's like, wait, is this a secret thing? Is this to protect that? No clue. Like, somebody had just left it there, apparently. But it was a, you know, it was a stone knife. So it was of the time. And then nearby was another kind of massive hole in the semi-pyramidal pyramid, I guess, platform that was too large for a post. So the best we could say is that was probably a wooden statue. Probably. Which wouldn't be unknown, right?

This is in the Western Pacific. We do have statues that are made out of wood, right? This is in the Western Pacific, we do have statues that are made out of wood, right? We do have also statues that are made out of stone, but in the Central Pacific, we've never seen these or heard of them or had any description of them. So it's not uncommon. Statues are not uncommon at all, but we see those in the Western Pacific. We've seen those in Polynesia further to the east, right? If you think about Hawaiian tikis or gods or tiki posts, or you think about the stone statues on Easter Island, right? So same tradition, but we've just never until now seen them in the center of the Pacific. So, yeah, this temple is also associated with a statue field,

but the statues aren't large like they are in the upper temple. These are small. They are less than a meter in height, usually half a meter to three quarters of a meter for the most part. And they are either carved on boulders with great detail coming out, or they're augmented with clay, right? And then that's also carved. But there's also an associated residential complex just outside of this major temple or this massive temple but again really large in terms of they're still built like the residences that were in the neighborhood right but they seem to be associated specifically with this temple and then this also going toward the river from this temple complex, is a very large canoe landing.

So it's kind of this amazing complex that I think when it was used, during the time it was used, it must have been just an extraordinary site and an extraordinary view. Well, Felicia, from what you mentioned in there, to reach the site, if someone wanted to reach Menka, would it very much be using a canoe to go up the river? I know you mentioned that there are roads, pathways at Menka itself, but do you think it would have been travelling upriver would be the main way for someone to actually reach the site first and foremost? I think travelling upriver would probably be the best way to get there. There are roads, or pathways, I call them roads, but there are pathways that we've found at least going to and from Menka that goes across the mountains. So we found at least one of those. There's said to be many more.

We've yet to find those. We want to find them, but we have yet to find them. But I think getting there, canoes would probably be the best way of getting there. The river courses, because of the nature of the vegetation and the geology of the island, it's very difficult to walk overland because you're constantly tripping on all the rubble, the stone, the talus, or you're having to thrash through the vegetation. But rivers were traditionally like a road source, an avenue. And when you walk up rivers, when you use the rivers as your own pathway, you'll actually see footholds that are carved into the side of the rivers

and handholds that might be carved in there some of the rivers will have like stone bridges across them that are traditional stone bridges that are prehistoric in age that are not contemporary and so we haven't even talked about the cave with the painting in it no we will get to the painting of the cave in a second all right so like don't worry felicia because that's going to be a painted cave very very soon but from what we've been talking about seems to be from what you're saying that there are these two main compounds as it were this upper compound and the lower compound and there seem to be some striking shall we say differences between the two i mean what do you think this is telling us, the architecture, the arts in these two compounds about, let's say, when they were in use?

Do you think they were used at the same time or is there an evolution here at the site? So that's a big question. When we started getting the radiocarbon dates back from Menke, from our excavations, we found that both compounds were used very heavily during a certain period of time, from about the 1400 or so AD to about 1600-ish AD. Very heavy, very heavy use on both the upper and lower compounds. The radiocarbon dates only tell us about one area of use, the area that we actually excavated. They don't give us the full picture, I don't think, of the entire sites or the entire compounds. For that, if you start looking at the architectural styles, then I think we're actually looking at a long-term use, but also an evolution of use and an evolution of architectural styles. Menke is one of those places where we see

both the early architecture and later architectural styles and pretty much everything in between. In a sense, it becomes a reference site for architecture, where we see pretty much everything in between, in a sense, it becomes a reference site for architecture, where we see pretty much every style that's visible around the island from early times to fairly recent times. And so was one used first and then the other came into being? That was my initial impression. Could that have been the case? Could the early ones still have been used continuously? And then the later one developed, you know, when there was a need for perhaps greater

ritual or a more theatrical kind of presence? That's a possibility. Because the early compound is one of these that appear to be quite reserved. It is very small, very kind of tucked away in many respects. And the lower compound is very public in so many ways. and it has a much more theatrical kind of arrangement with large open areas that face this major massive temple. And so you could see throngs of people making their way to this place. Or it simply could be it's much more elaborate.

It needed a kind of a wealthier appearance or presence or an updated new presence. That's a possibility too. So I can't really answer your question in that respect. The jury's still out. The jury's still out. We need you and your team to go back and do some more in due course to sort, to find the answers. Now, you did hint at this just now and i would like to now ask this question because it seems a really really interesting piece of archaeology felicia what is this painted cave oh phenomenal this painted cave was a complete surprise. Okay, the oral histories talk about the priests or the, you know, the servants of Sinlaku actually going upstream and convening with the goddess in a cave. And that's all they say. We had no idea what that actually meant, right? What it would look like. So we, in effect, when we were actually

doing our reconnaissance in this part of the island, one of the things that we would do would be follow the rivers all the way to their sources. And if that meant climbing and scaling cliffs, that's exactly what it meant, right? And so one of the rivers that we followed up is a tributary to the Menke River. And as we got up close to its source, we began seeing some rock shelters, which we thought, okay, we'll try these. They're relatively small. They're fairly open. But at the source, the headwaters of this particular tributary, we didn't think anything

of it, except one of the rock shelters seemed to have a leveled area. It also seemed the edges of it seemed to be lined in cobbles, in basalt cobbles. And in the cliff next to the rock shelter, there's a series of what look like steps or something that were carved into it. But when we climbed into this rock shelter, we didn't see anything on the ceiling. We didn't see anything on the floor that would say there was a ritual going on here. You know, it may be ancient, but there was something going on here. So we didn't see anything like that. It's when we started taking photographs with a digital camera, right? So you get that instant gratification of seeing the image. As soon as we started taking photographs of just the rock shelter, the floor, the ceilings, and we started looking at the images, there was these painted images. with this flowing white hair that streams away from her.

And the focus of this woman's face is a little fish made out of clay that was impressed into the ceiling of the rock shelter. That surprised us. And next to her is an image of what appears to be a man with a topknot. Beautiful face. And then next to him is an image of what appears to be a bird or an owl or something, some kind of a creature. She's associated with owls. Owls are a messenger.

So it could be that this is what this actually was. And then we found just upstream from this rock shelter, another rock shelter that was kind of somewhat connected with another kind of engraved image in the ceiling. Although that one is kind of tucked in a corner, very difficult to get to. And we can only see kind of it from the side. in a corner, very difficult to get to, and we could only see kind of it from the side. So we didn't know it was there until we started actually taking photos. And that's not unusual because of the nature of photography and the play of light. But it completely surprised us. It surprised my crew. My crew are all local men. And I was, you know, I've been working with

them for 15 or more years. So they were amazed. And when I showed them, you know, the image in the camera, they're like, they're grabbing my camera. They're racing up to the camera. And they're taking their own images, their own pictures, so they could see it because you can't really see it with the naked eye. It is so remarkable and it is so unique to the site as well, isn't it, Felicia, that this painting in this cave, it's not like the rest of the remains of Menka where they are still there, they're still there. You knew that they were there when you went to do your archaeological excavations. This was something which came of complete surprise

that no one may well have laid eyes on since they were created or since they were in use hundreds, perhaps thousands of years ago. That's precisely it. We had no clue. And our only clue was a photograph. And that was a complete surprise. It was such a surprise that you kind of fell off your chair as soon as you looked at it. You're going, wait a minute, somebody's looking at me. They saw us when we were there. I mean, it's that kind of surprise. I mean, it's all amazing.

I mean, if we start wrapping it all up, I could ask so much, but we're going to have to start wrapping up now on this site. I mean, as we've said through the whole of this podcast, the religious site that it is, when you look at the archaeological work that you've done, when you look at the complexes, when you look at the painted cave, the preliminary, the primary purpose of this whole area, does it really seem, it seems to be religious, but do we also seem to see a ceremonial purpose in the function of this place too i think there was this is a place i think menke overall the entire complex the temples the cave the aspect of just getting there and then another aspect, and that is most of the communities, most of the ancient villages all have walls around them. At Menke, there are no defensive walls at all around this place. And I think in part, it's the mystique of it being a highly powerful place where if you're not the right person, you won't ever be allowed to enter it, right? I think it was highly ceremonial, very special, that it was a place truly of rituals and rites

of renewal, rites that honor the benefactress, the goddess of the island. So it does become an incredibly special place. And it's a place that even the oral histories say that it will appear to you or it will disappear to you or the goddess may create a fog so you'll never be able to find it. We had a story from a pig hunter who said, you know, 20 years ago, he remembers hunting pig in that area and coming across the goddess's throne, you know, after he was asleep, you know, spent the night out there that she opened the curtains, she shone a light on her throne and that he saw this incredible, you know, throne that was bathed in light, right? And since then, he'd never been able to find it again. And so, because the goddess has kept it from him. So here we are, we find what we think

is a site, kind of our initial reconnaissance. And he gets really excited. He hears about it in the community. So he wants to join us. So he does. And we're asking him, well, what did you see? Where did you see it? And he's going, well, I don't know. It was sort of near a coconut, but I could see a coconut, but I don't know. But I can't say exactly where. Right. He was very disappointed. He couldn't find the place, the exact place. And he kept saying, oh, the goddess is keeping this from me. She doesn't want me to see this. She doesn't want me to know. So it is a special place in the history of the island, in the history of Kosrae,

in the oral histories, and in that mythic past that is Kosrae. And it also sounds like, Felicia, there is still so much more to discover on this site. Oh, there is. There is. And so, so i mean last of all actually just before we wrap up because i didn't really ask about this but it does beg the question do we know what ultimately happens to menke do we know why it falls out of use do we know what's the decline story of this site so the end story of the site appears to be by about 1640 AD.

There doesn't seem to be any other activity. But this is also a time. So 1640, the 1600s is a kind of interesting time anyway across the Pacific, because I think we're seeing kind of shifts in the climate at this point in time. We start seeing kind of unique El Ninos and other kinds of phenomenon occurring. But it's also a unique time, a unique shift in political systems in this part of the Pacific and Coast Rise also, you know, part of that political shift. This is where I think we see not just political shifts, but a whole shift in the nature of who's running things and saying they're running things. And so by 1600, we have a complete shift in the capital,

in the political capital of the island. We see the paramount chiefs who have gained, well, gained strength and sort of political capital, and they moved their capital, their seat, to an off-island place like Nan Madal in Pohnpei. In Khosrai, it's Leila. So Leila really rises to importance by 1600. Now, it's already risen by then. It's already been built by then. It's already being used by then. But by 1600, I think we see this coalescence of political power in the paramount, in the Toksha, is what he's called, in Leila. And he also brings to the island all of these section chiefs from the villages across the island, because, you know, keep your enemy close,

as it were, right? He also brings the ritual center to Layla. So he moves all the priests to Layla, so that I think they can then do his bidding. And I think it's at that point, we see the abandonment of Menke. It's disused. So it basically falls into disuse. Nobody seems to go back to it, return to it. But at the same time, even though it's not used after that, it still holds today that notion it's a sacred place. It's a place of magic. It's a place where It's a sacred place. It's a place of magic. It's a place where only those who are allowed to go may enter. Well, Felicia, that's a lovely way to end it.

And it's lovely to therefore shine a light on this incredibly important, amazing ancient site in the center of the Pacific, in eastern Micronesia, on the island of Khosrae. Felicia, an amazing chat once again. Please keep in touch. Leila sounds like another awesome episode to do in the future and just let me know when you're going back to the area of the world because i'm going to come with you even if you need to stuff me in the baggage because it sounds absolutely awesome to do work out there the archaeology out there felicia thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast. Well, thank you for asking me back, Tristan. As always, this is great fun because I love talking about Micronesia and all the sites that we have back there and this beautiful ancient landscape.

So thank you.