The Ancients - Pompeii’s Indian Statuette

Episode Date: August 12, 2021

Among Pompeii’s great wealth of surviving artefacts is one with a rich globe trotting history that only goes to emphasise the interconnected nature of the ancient world: the Pompeii Lakshmi, a small statuette originally crafted in India. But what do we know about this object? Does it really depict Lakshmi? How might it have reached Pompeii? Where in India do we think it was crafted? Laura Weinstein came on the podcast to answer all these questions and talk through what we know about this iconic object.

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It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and in today's podcast, well, we are going back to that extraordinary ancient site that is Pompeii. But today we're going to be focusing in on one specific artefact from there, an Indian statuette discovered in the early 20th century, the so-called Pompeii Lakshmi. Now there are so many questions that still surround this statuette. What do we think its function was? Where in India do we think it was originally crafted? And how did it end up hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of miles away from where it was originally crafted, in Pompeii, in the central Mediterranean? Well to answer all of

these questions and more, I was delighted to be joined on the podcast by Laura Weinstein. Laura, she dialed in from Italy. She's been working on this statuette for a few years now. She's recently submitted a paper all about it. So without further ado, here's Laura. Laura thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast thank you I'm really excited to be here now we're talking about an incredible object from Pompeii Pompeii full of these incredible artifacts but this statue this mini statue Laura it must sit among the most remarkable. Yeah in fact everything about Pompeii is stupendous but this object is from India and she or it I like to call it she sorry is the only

Indian crafted object that has been found in the former Roman Empire. So she's very exotic and mysterious and very interesting. And I've spent the past more than three years, almost three and a half years studying her, trying to understand more about her story. Well, and we want to learn more about her story in today's podcast. I mean, Laura, first of all, delving into the background of it all, talk to me about the discovery. When was this object found and how was it found? Well, Pompeii was rediscovered and the excavations started in the 1700s under the Bourbon rulers. And if you fast forward to 1938, their excavations were continuing as they do today. And the superintendent, his name was Amadeo Maiori.

And they were excavating near one of the main streets, which is called Via del Abundanza, Abundance Street. And they came upon this object, the house, it's now called the House of the Indian Statuette. But of course, it wasn't called that until they found the Indian Statuette. And then the house got the name from that. But it was found in 1938. And the house, it's in region number one, what we call insula number eight and doorway or house number five. And the house, it goes back, it's very long and deep. And in the back, so there's the atrium area, then the office area, let's say. And then in the back of these houses in Pompeii, it's typical, was a peristyle garden. And the statue was found in the corner of the peristyle garden and the remnants of what looked like a box. Some people have translated it that it was found in a box. It

was not found in a box, but there were traces of what had been a box and there were sundry items in there. And she was one of them. But now if you see her, she's all together and looks beautiful. But actually there are photos from 1938 when this happened and it was published in 1939 in black and white, where you can see what the statue looked like when they found her she was I mean there was a volcanic eruption you can imagine she was shattered but they put her back together so they put her back together and talk me through the features like the details the visual aspects of this statue I mean Laura this is a podcast but you are going to go full into the detail now. Go wild. Talk us through what this statue looks like. So first of all, she's made from ivory, I should say.

And ivory was a very precious material back in the Roman times, but the Greek and also in India. It's been a precious material for a long time. So she's made from ivory and ivory allows for very detailed carving. Apparently, from what I read, I've never done it. And she is completely naked. That's the first thing you notice. She's very exposed, all parts of her and Indian art tends to be like that. She's 24 centimeters tall. So that's about nine and a half inches for the inches people in the audience. And she has Shudamami in the middle of her forehead. And she has a very elaborate braid in the back of her head,

which means that she was meant to be seen also from the back. Her left hand is up and kind of cupping what might be an earring. Her right arm is over her head and touching her left scapula, which you can see in the displays because they usually give you a mirror so you can see also the back. She has the most interesting and unique aspect about her, and a big part of the research, is that she has two maidens by her side. It's all one piece of ivory, but she's this very sexy central figure with actually one breast is bigger than the other because her arm is up. So it's kind of a naturalistic pose that one breast would be in a slightly different shape. And then she has these two little attendants by the side who are basically mini versions of their mistress. So they also are completely nude, but with smaller breasts, for example, and they're each holding something in their hand, mysterious spiral and rectangular objects in their

hands. And then underneath, which you cannot see in the museum display, there's also a little mysterious symbol or letter or sign. Well, let's talk about this sign and the symbol now. What is this symbol? When they first found this symbol, there was debate as to what it meant. Some people thought it might be a sacred symbol, meaning that she was a goddess and this was an invocation to the gods. But Maiori, in his publication in 1939, did not agree with that. And he said he thought it was probably the signature of the artist, which is quite possible. And another similar idea is that it could have been a workshop mark. But beyond what the symbol meant, there was also a debate about the language in which it was written. So at the

time, they thought it was written in Karoshdi, which was used more in northwestern India. I'm talking about 2,000 years ago, because of course, Vesuvius erupted in the year 79 AD or CE, if you prefer. So almost 2,000 years ago, in India, in the northwestern territories, they used this Karoshdi script. And that was actually one way that aside from the fact that the iconography of the statue was not Greco woman. I mean, they knew that she's not from around here.

This symbol on the bottom that they said was Karoshdi sort of nailed it to say, okay, she's definitely from India. The irony of that is that now the very, very, very, very latest research says we're thinking that maybe actually it's Brahmi script, which is also Indian script, which is lucky for us, but it's actually from the south of India, more southern parts of India. But in any case, everyone seems to agree that it's an Indian script. And then whether it's north or south, Brahmi or Karosh, they might point to the provenance of the statue. We'll definitely delve into more detail about the origins of the statue in India in a bit

I just want to keep on the ivory material a bit longer and you did highlight it there Laura but just so we really get our minds around this so ivory in ancient Roman times and ancient Greek times but mainly ancient Roman times for ancient Greek times, but mainly ancient Roman times for our discussion today, ivory for the ancient Romans, it was an incredibly elite, popular, it was a wealthy material. Yes. I can't remember the exact quote, but Pliny said it was something like the most expensive material that was extracted from a land animal. I mean, okay, it's not on the level of gems, but it was very, very, very precious to the Romans. And so the ancient writers tell us that

the rich Romans, let's say, you know, the imperial types, including Nero's tutor Seneca, had large pieces of furniture made out of ivory with typically some citrus wood tops. But even the people who were not rich wanted to have something of this precious material. So if they couldn't afford, you know, thrones or tables that were made from ivory, then they might've had hairpins or knife handles or gaming pieces or little dolls we found even in some of the tombs here in Rome that were made from ivory. So everybody wanted to have a little piece of it. And apparently the Romans loved it so much that the African elephants were nearly extinct in the first and second century. And they had to go look for ivory in a different place and that place would have been India. Wow I didn't know that at all that's remarkable I mean Laura so let's go back

to this small ivory statue then you've mentioned some of these incredible details about it but who do we think this statue depicts? That's the million dollar question isn't't it? So it's called Lakshmi, but it's not Lakshmi. Okay. So who is Lakshmi to get it all started? Yeah. I understand why we all love to call her Lakshmi. Even I do. Lakshmi, I'm saying Lakshmi, but I think Lakshmi is more correct.

Pronunciation Lakshmi is the, she's a goddess of fortune and prosperity. And she is the consort. We're talking about the Hindu pantheon of gods because of course in India, there's many different religious practices, but we're talking about in the Hindu pantheon, the three most important gods are Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu. And each one of those has a consort or a wife or a partner,

whatever you want to call. And the partner, the consort of Vishnu is Lakshmi. So she's a very important goddess. And you can imagine that the Italians in 1938 didn't know very much about Hinduism and the different gods and goddesses. So of course, if they're going to look at an Indian object, they're probably going to go for one of the more famous names. But she has in art, typical iconography means symbols. So there's certain ways that she is typically depicted, just like the Catholic saints in paintings here in Rome.

Typically there's all symbols and that helps you identify them. It's the same with Hindu gods and goddesses. So a big part of her mythology is that she came out of the ocean of milk on a lotus flower. So it's very important that she's either standing or sitting on a lotus flower. And our statue is not. Just for starters, Mayuri, he did have an Indian scholar who was helping him.

They assessed that she was Lakshmi based on the fact that she has a number of flowers on her, let's say in her braid and in the middle of her forehead and on her sort of kind of necklace. And they said, wow, look, there's an abundance of lotuses. So that's one reason we can say maybe she's a Lakshmi. But Lakshmi is usually shown not only, as I said, sitting or standing on the lotus, but often is shown with illustrating elephants. So we're talking about two elephants that are sort of behind her or above her, and they're showering her with water.

Our statue doesn't have that. Of course, you could say, well, our statue is made from an elephant. It's a little bit of a stretch, but maybe. Okay, there's no illustrating elephants, but she's made from an elephant, or she might be shown with Vishnu. Also, she has what we call a vehicle. Most of the Hindu gods and goddesses have a kind of symbol, and that's an animal. And her vehicle or Makara is an owl. Our statue doesn't have that. So they did the best that they could in 1938, but it's really difficult to argue these days that she's a Lakshmi. She's probably a fertility goddess at most,

which is called a Yakshi or a Yakshini. And some scholars, especially the Indian scholars, think that she's just, and I don't want to say just, but an idealized woman woman a gem of a woman a courtesan some just perfect woman not necessarily a goddess that's interesting there how we got the name that we do associate it with now but why there is so much debate surrounding it Laura so let's go on to the big kicker though we kind of touched on it slightly earlier. And this is the whole origins of the statue. Now, Laura, talk us through this.

Where did archaeologists originally believe that this statue had come from in the East? When they first found her, in the paper, they assessed that she was from North Central India. There was a school, not a physical school like a university, but a school of artists around a sacred city called Mathura, which looks like Mathura, but it's Mathura. The assessment was that she was made by the Mathura school. It's kind of near New Delhi, if that helps with the map. So it's up there. Though interestingly, there had

been a quasi-simultaneous discovery even further northwest in Begnum of ivory furniture pieces. And I'm actually surprised and impressed that Maiori didn't just jump to the conclusion that she was made by those same people, because it was a fabulous discovery and it was at the same time. And there are female figures that looked similar, but he assessed that she was probably made by the Mathura school because there's a lot of architecture, which is actually around Buddhist monuments in North Central India that looked similar. But in fact, 95% sure that she wasn't from Bagram and that she wasn't from Matra, but she's actually from much further south. And do you want me to explain? Yes, please do. Absolutely. This is the most interesting bit. How do we know this, Laura? So when she was found, as I mentioned earlier, Maiori did the best he could.

The professor was helping him, his name was Di Lorenzo, based on what they knew. Of course, there's no internet back then. I mean, there's no interlibrary loans. I mean, communication between Italy and India was not great. So it was difficult, but they did the best they could based on the information and the findings that were available. At that time, the only sort of simultaneous discovery was this one at Bagram. But later, around the very late 1950s, early 1960s, so the statue was found in 1938. So we're talking about more than 20 years later. And Maori was passed away or he had already retired, it was pretty much the end.

We're not even sure if he knew about these new discoveries. There were two discoveries made in southern India, closer to Mumbai, let's say, that area in Maharashtra. One was a statue that had actually been found in the 1930s, but nobody knew about it, including the Indian government, the Indian universities, the Indian scholars. No one knew. It was a man, his name is Lamtre. He was a local merchant in a town called Tehr, which in ancient times was called Tagara. And it's actually on the famous Periplus, And it's actually on the famous Periplus, the Eritrean Sea, which was manuscript for merchants that was written in Greek in the first century. And this place, Tagata or Ter, there were a lot of artifacts.

And this guy just took it upon himself to start collecting them. And he even hired local people to help him. And by the late 1950s, early 60s, he had amassed 25,000 objects, one of which was this statue that she is from head to the knees, but quite similar to the Pompeii, not identical, because that's going to come in a second. That's going to come in 1973, the super fireworks, but we're already on the way to the fireworks. The preview of the fireworks was this little statue found in southern India that was much more similar than the Buddhist monumental architecture that Maori had pointed to in 1938. In particular, she was made from ivory and she was the same size for starters. So a little object also with a hole in her head. I'm not sure if I mentioned yet, but the Pompeii statue has a hole drilled into her head that goes all the way down to her navel. So that she must have been

holding something. And that's another one of the mysteries about the object is what was her function. But this tear object, tear is T-E-R, had the same hole in the head and a similar iconography, same material. And if she was extracted to her original size, she would have been the same size. So already there was a buzz in the academic community, mostly the Indians and the Brits, who were writing about, oh, this new discovery in terror, this is really cool. Maybe we need to rethink where the Pompeii statue might be from. But it was still just a buzz. It was still not a slam dunk. And then in 1973, there was a proper excavation by Professor Deo of Nagpur University at a place called Bokardan, which was also part in ancient times of the same Satvahana territory. So we're talking about a huge Indian dynasty of which both Tehr and Bokardan were part.

And they found a statuette that is almost identical to the Pompeii statue. She unfortunately does not have a head. So the tear one is from head to knees and she's missing her lower legs and her feet. The Bo-Kar-Dan one has no head. She starts at the waist and she goes to the feet, but she has two maidens by her side, two assistants by her side, and all the other so-called compadranda that were pointed to before never had the two maidens by the side the way that this one in Boca Don. Plus, it was a proper excavation where they were doing stratigraphy. So they knew that she was from the first century, whereas the one in Tehran, they're like first century, second century, we're not sure. This was like, okay, she's from the first century and she's almost identical and

she's ivory and she's got the canal drilled down. I mean, everything. So I call them the sisters. They're both sisters, but of the two sisters, this one in Bokadan is, anybody who was interested in this subject, it kind of changed their mind, like, okay, so seems like she's probably from the South. And she was probably made not by the School of Matara, the Mataraz artists near Delhi, or not by the Begram people in the Kushana territory, but probably by the Satvahana people. And as little as we know about the Kushana people, we know even less about the Satvahana people. So I'm hoping that this is a moment to shine,

that they can start to get some more attention. Hopefully we can pull off an exhibit about Roman and Indian trade and highlight these little statues. Have you heard of the teenage werewolf prosecuted in 1603? Did you know that the 17th century British government relied heavily on female spies? And do you want to know about chin-chucking and thigh sex? Of course you do. I'm Susanna Lipscomb, and my new podcast, Not Just the Tudors, is a deep dive into what I like to think of as the long 16th century. We'll be talking about everything from Aztecs to witches, Velazquez to Shakespeare,

Mughal India to the Mayflower. Not, in other words, just the Tudors, but most definitely also the Tudors. Subscribe to Not Just the Tudors from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. laura that is absolutely astonishing and i can completely agree why that 1973 date was the epic firework discovery that it should be and it deserves to be told now. I mean, but it also begs the question, I must ask now, how do we think an object from that area of India could have made its way all the way to Pompeii in the central Mediterranean? It's not as difficult as you would imagine. I mean, it seems like, oh my gosh, it's so far away. How could that happen? But if you look at, like, oh my gosh, it's so far away. How could that happen? But if you look at, for example, the Periplus, which was written in the first century by a merchant sailor trying to help other merchant sailors find their way around to the various ports, you can see, aside from

Pliny and Strabo and Horace and other ancient writers who told us about the avid trade between Rome and India. But the parapluie also describes all the ports along the southeast of India and the entire west coast of India, including two very important ones called Muzirus and Baragasa. And Baragasa was known in the parapluie for ivory in particular. The Indians were exporting many things to the Roman Empire, like gems, precious stones, pearls, fabric, some of which came from China, wood, unfortunately, which has mostly disappeared. So we don't know any more spices. I listened to the podcast you did with Dr. Cy Botham and, you know, pepper, pepper, and more pepper. The Romans loved pepper, right?

They arrived with gold and they left with pepper. I mean, I was in the Roman Forum the other day and where we have the Basilica of Maxentius or Massentio. Now there used to be a warehouse for pepper. So the Romans loved the pepper. That all came from India. So there was a trade and this statue probably made the journey maybe on the water, maybe by the land. We don't know, but about 20 days or less from, again, around Tehr, around Boca Don. I'm just saying that because those are the two sisters are from there. We think around there. And then made its

way to Barigaza. Then Hippolys had studied the monsoons. Of course, probably the Indians knew about the monsoons way before, but from the Greco-Roman perspective, Hippolys unlocked the key of the monsoons and the traders understood when they should leave India to head towards Arabia. Of course, we're not talking today about overland trade, but I'm just talking about the ocean trade. And then would go up the Red Sea. Berenice was the most famous, most important, it seems, Roman port on the Red Sea. Some merchandise might have gone to Petra. That's in dispute as far as the statue, if the Nabataeans were involved or not involved.

Anyway, probably ended up at Alexandria, which was a gigantic emporium, and then went across the Mediterranean onto Potioli, which is now known as Pozzuoli, basically the major port that was near Pompeii. So it gets all the way to Pompeii, to this house where it was discovered. Ultimately, it was there when the infamous eruption takes place in the mid to late first century a.d one other point i'd love to talk about before really talking about the possible owner of this object and you've also highlighted it very lightly as we've been chatting something to talk about which is the function the purpose of this indian statette. Laura, as you have done already, another great mystery, another great question, another great topic. Talk me through the debate, the story of what

we think its function could be. So when the paper was published in 1939, Maiori said he thought it might have been a mirror handle, even though most people overlooked the fact that he actually in the Italian says, as a secondary use. So in this way, Maiori was probably onto something, even though everybody after that was like, it's a mirror handle, it's a mirror handle. I think even Maiori was not convinced that it was a mirror handle. I think even Maori was not convinced that it was a mirror handle as its original function. But of course, it has this hole in the head that's drilled down to the waist. So it was the lower object of something else. But if it were a mirror handle, you know, we never say never, but nobody was holding that thing in their hand. It's really heavy and awkward. And also it's exquisitely carved. I mean, and there's no signs from where at all. So I'm willing to think it might have been

on a table, like a standing mirror by herself. And then in that case, nobody would have had to fondle her and she could have been okay. It's still a possibility that she functioned as a mirror handle, but if so, there's reason to believe that she had another function before. And the main reason for that is because the statue has practically invisible, let's call them little notches or niches or holes around the midsection, as does the one from Tehr. And so in 1979, archaeologist Elizabeth Dorian Caspers did a study of these two statues and their respective notches. And she hypothesized that they were probably propping up a three, well, actually she said four, and now we think and or three,

legged object. So that instead of being a standalone mirror handle, as example, it probably or might well have been the leg, one of three or four legs of a table or a tripod or a box. I mean, the statue is only nine inches tall, 24 centimeters, so it couldn't hold a lot of weight. Unlike the ones from Bagram, which are double the size and maybe could have been used as footstools. I'm not so sure about the footstool idea here, but for now, we think that it was probably used in that way. I did think at one time that it might

have been a cosmetic box or a jewelry box, which makes sense when you see how voluptuous the statue is. When you think, oh, it's such a hyper feminine object, then it probably was in the boudoir. But the problem with that argument is that the Roman people were very interested in showing off, let's say. And if they had an exotic object that came all the way from India, whether the guy who owned the house went all the way to India and brought it back, or whether he went to Alexandria and got it there, or whether he got it from the local market, it's a cool, cool object. And you don't want to be hiding it away in your wife's bedroom when you could be using

it as a conversation piece when you're hosting dinner parties. when you could be using it as a conversation piece when you're hosting dinner parties. So I've been leaning away from the cosmetic box or jewelry box idea and thinking lately that maybe there was a shelf in a social area of the house, a public area of the house. And there was this small, almost like a tray, small object, but at chest level, not down on the floor where it's kind of wasted because you can't see all the cool details, but something that people walking around the room would have been able to see. And then perhaps on top of that object, there could have been other even smaller, On top of that object, there could have been other even smaller, cute little exotic objects, like a curio cabinet, except open for everybody to ooh and ah about when they had these dinner parties.

So that's my best guess for right now. Then, so my theory, but I'm very happy to be proven wrong. But till now, I'm just accumulating all the information that's ever been published on this statue and coming up with my best for now. I think it's conceivable that this original object, let's say it was the decorative upper part of a tripod, or let's say it was one of four legs of a small tray or table, or there was an earthquake in 62 AD or CE. So 17 years before the Vesuvian eruption that we all know about, there was an earthquake 17 years before. And I think it's conceivable that that original object

for which there would have been three or four of these female figures, that that object was broken during the earthquake of 62. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not, just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push, find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. And somehow this one leg, let's call it a leg for now, this one statuette was preserved. And the owner understood that it was, I mean, it's gorgeous, it's precious, and he doesn't want to throw it

away. So he was keeping it in the way I imagine it is a shed in the garden, like out there in the garden, there's a shed. And he's got this accumulation of objects. Like when I break my earring or my bracelet, I'm like, oh, I need to go get that fixed. And I keep all that stuff in a box. And so he had this box of stuff with the intention of trying to get a match later or having somebody make one for him or whatever. And that's why we only found one as opposed to three or four

because the original object was already gone 17 years before and there was only this one left. So she was not shattered at that moment. Of course, she would have still been whole and that's why he kept her because she was still in good shape, but maybe used it secondarily as a mirror handle or maybe just left it in this box to deal with it later. And then that was what was shattered during the submarine eruption in 79. And that's what was found by Maori in 1938. The fun of those theories,

the jury's still out, but it's always good to theorize what could be possible with this object. Laura, this has all been really, really interesting so far, but let's focus on the owner on this figure a bit further. I mean, do we know anything about the person who owns the statue? So the owner is another one of those mysteries. So many mysteries. is another one of those mysteries. There's so many mysteries. Often in Pompeii, you can find something that's been inscribed and that helps to identify who the owner was. And in this case, the only inscription that's been found is Chrysanthus. And it's been concluded that that's not the name of the owner,

but some free man laborer that was living in the house. It's the only name we have so far. As I mentioned, there was this earthquake in 62. And it's hard to believe, but actually, even 17 years later, many, I want to say most, but I'm not sure, many, if not most of the houses in Pompeii were still under reconstruction. That's how bad this earthquake is. We never hear about the earthquake because we just think, oh, this would be an eruption. But this earthquake was also pretty darn bad. And they even have a relief that you can see that they made that they found of, oh my gosh, this is what it was like. So this earthquake was really bad. And a lot of the houses were being reconstructed. And in the house where this house of the Indian statuette 1.8.5, there's a room when you walk in from the atrium, the next room is what we call the tablinum. So it's the office of the patron. And let's say basically to the right of that was this little room that was

being redecorated and it still has like rough white plaster on the wall. So it's not been painted. And on that wall, on the right-hand side, there's graffiti of two boats, one of which had been published before, one of which had never been published, and it's going to be in my paper that's coming out in this book in the fall. And that doesn't mean that he was a merchant, but since we have so little information about this guy, and we know that he had this really cool, exotic, really far away, unique, never been found anything like this object in this house. Maybe he was a merchant, Maori, who found the statue. You know, maybe even he went all the way to India and brought it back as a souvenir. And that's pretty cool. I'm also a filmmaker. So of course, I love that idea that he went all the way to India and brought her back and we can follow the journey of the two of them, you know, in these two worlds.

But some of the scholars with whom I'm working feel very strongly that probably the furthest that he would have gone would have been Alexandria, Egypt, because a lot of the families from what we call Campania, Campania is where Naples is and Vesuvius is and Pompeii is, that they had agents working for them and bringing stuff from the East. There wasn't the necessity that he would have gone. But I mean, he might have just been some rogue adventurer guy who liked to go. But we don't know. And trying to get access to the other objects that were found in the house because they haven't been studied since 1938. 1939, if I want to be generous, but let's say in 80 years, those objects have just been sitting around.

And if we think that in 1938, that even trying to assess what the statuette, what she was and where she was from and all the details that we've been discussing, you can imagine that there might be another object that was found in that so-called box or anywhere in the house that was misinterpreted or just put aside because nobody was thinking in this way. But now, East-West trade and Indian Ocean trade and this bridging of these two cultures is really a hot topic. And there's more and more experts who are studying not just, oh, I'm Indian and I'm studying my world and I'm in the Mediterranean and I'm studying my world, but it's starting to happen that people are trying to bridge that gap. And I'm not sure that any of those objects will tell us anything, but I do feel strongly that we need to look at them and make sure that there's nothing interesting in there. Because I think there might very well be something interesting. Also, another example that might be a dead end, but might not, is that in the tablinum

in the office, there was a painting that was taken down at some point, and it's not in the house anymore. I mean, I got access to the house, but the painting was missing. It's in storage somewhere. We think it's in Pompeii itself, as opposed to in the Archaeology Museum in Naples. And I mean, the painting might be of just flowers. I mean, it might be nothing, but you know, I can't help but think, oh, maybe it's going to be some sort of scene of, you know, trade or a port with boats or I don't know. But I mean, you just have to go down all those alleys and a lot of them will be dead ends. But there are some ways while we're waiting for another crafted object to pop out of Pompeii, Herculaneum, or really anywhere in the entire former Roman Empire, while we're waiting for some discovery, which I'm sure is going to happen,

the best that we can do and the least that we can do is look at the other objects that were found in the house in 1938 and see if they can reveal anything to us. I would say that that would be the next step. As far as trying to identify the owner, he had 14 rooms, there was an upper floor, but unfortunately we just don't know a lot more right now. Well, Laura, best of luck with these next steps. It very much sounds like this story is far from finished, which makes it really, really exciting.

It's also so wonderful to do these podcasts where we're shining a light on this connectivity between the ancient Mediterranean world and further east in this case ancient India Laura it's been a fantastic chat all about this now just to finish off I must ask you did mention it there you've written a chapter in an upcoming book what is this we had a conference of European archaeologists in 2019. And the organizers of the panel asked the panelists, the contributors, the presenters, we wanted to create a book together. And it's coming out on Rutledge, supposedly, allegedly this fall. I just was working on the proofs the other day. And it's called Globalization and Transculturality from Ancient Times to the

Premodern Age. So it's a handful of a title. But it's basically a lot of the articles are covering the Indian Ocean trade from 2000 years ago. Not all of them, obviously, but we're all really excited about this field and getting information out to a larger audience. Absolutely, Laura. It feels like a huge congratulations to you and everyone else for getting that almost ready, almost published. All for me to say now, we wrap up is thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast. Thank you so much. And I really hope this inspires people to learn more about ancient Pompeii, ancient Rome, and especially ancient India, because ancient India has a magnificent heritage and deserves a lot more attention.