The Ancients - Ramesses the Great: Death of a Dynasty

Episode Date: March 1, 2026

“Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.” Ramesses II reigned as Egypt's unchallenged champion for more than sixty years. But within decades the dynasty of Egypt’s greatest pharaoh had fallen apart. Tristan Hughes is joined by Dr Campbell Price to chart how the reign of Ramesses the Great descended into slow collapse. From monumental building projects that once proclaimed eternal power to the advent of instability to the looming threat of the Sea Peoples, discover how Egypt’s New Kingdom began to fracture under the weight of its own success. This is the dramatic final chapter in the story of the House of Ramesses.MOREThe House of Ramesses II: Egypt's Greatest Pharaoh?Listen on AppleListen on SpotifyThe Legend of Osiris: King of the DeadListen on AppleListen on Spotify Watch this episode on our YouTube channel: @TheAncientsPodcastPresented by Tristan Hughes. Audio editor is Aidan Lonergan. The producer is Joseph Knight. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff.All music courtesy of Epidemic SoundsThe Ancients is a History Hit podcast.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener survey here:https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Just visit historyhit.com slash subscribe. I met a traveller from an antique land who said, Two vast and trunkless legs of stone, sand in the desert, Near them on the sand, half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown and wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command Tell that its sculptor well those passions read which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things. The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed,

and on the pedestal these words appear. My name is Osimandius, king of kings. Look on my works, ye mighty and despair. No thing beside remains, round the decay of that colossal wreck. Boundless and bare, the lone and level sands stretch far away. That was the poem, Ozymandius, published by the English poet Percy Shelley in 1818. It was inspired by the impending arrival in London of a colossal ancient Egyptian statue, the head of a pharaoh who had lived 3,000 years earlier, and whose fascinating story was only then just being rediscovered. The Greeks called this figure Ozymandius, but we know him

today by his actual name, Ramesses. Pharaoh Ramesses the Second, Ramesses the Great. In last week's episode, we explored how Ramesses' dynasty, the Ramesids, came to rule Egypt after a period of turmoil and decline. How first, Ramesses's grandad, and then his father, Setti the first, set about consolidating their power, paving the way for young Ramesses to inherit an Egypt ready to show its might once more. We ended by looking into Ramesses's earliest years on the throne, epitomized by his famous clash against the Hittites at the Battle of Kadesh, a battle that he would go on to immortalize in great war-reliefs across his kingdom. Now, we're continuing the story.

What do we know about the rest of his reign? How did he want to be remembered? We'll also cover what happened after this Titan's death, how his successors soon faced new troubles, including from the Sea Peoples. This is the continued story of the Ramisid dynasty, with our guest, Dr. Campbell Price. Campbell, welcome back to the show.

Hello, Tristan. Hello again. It feels like a long time. It hasn't been. It has. We did, of course, last time we chatted about the rise of Ramesses and looking at his background and how his granddad and his dad consolidate the position and then he rises to the four. And Kadesh, the Bas of Kadesh, five years in, it's almost a humiliation for him, but he's able to transform it,

you know, as a base for then him becoming in Naur eyes at least, later on one of the most well-known arguably successful pharaohs of all. Yeah, I think we've covered the prelude to greatness, you know, being on the shoulders of giants, because I think Ramesses II owes a lot to his father and to his grandfather. But Kadesh is undoubtedly a turning point, because, as you said, he's going back and trying to win some grudge matches,

doesn't succeed, in real terms, doesn't succeed with an outright victory, but is able to spin the story. And again, I'm very skeptical of using a modern term like propaganda. So when you see the walls of temples where Ramesses II is talking about Kadesh, the fact that he writes that, not he himself, but he commissions that to be carved on a temple wall, makes it so. It seems strange to a modern point of view.

but that is in some ways maybe anticipating a victory that he thinks maybe he will have an actuality in the future but that doesn't really matter the gods know the truth and he's carved it on the wall of the god's house

so by writing anything in hieroglyphs which are known as the words of the gods you make it so oh okay so it wasn't as if he thought he was deceiving the gods by spinning it no I don't think you can deceive a god right Because of God's omniscient.

So in his eyes, he's rewriting history and making that truth. He's going to Dish to be more of a success than it really was. And I think he genuinely believed it. You know, he believed that, yeah, as you said before, he snatched a victory from the jaws of real defeat. Well, he snatched a draw from the jaws in an absolute... But he's... In his own head, that draw is something to be proud of.

So I think that sets a... in motion a series of revisitations of the theme of victory over these vassal states in the Levant. So he goes back. Because remember, his reign is 66 years. When he's

young and he's got the fire in him, he's going to go back several times as we know he does. I love this idea that Ramesses, like over time, he just keeps telling himself that it's actually really good for him. And then he ultimately leads himself to believe it. Yeah. Now's the check things this time. But of Of course, so you have that pivotal moment of Kadesh early on in his reign. Yes.

A key moment in his expansionism or attempted expansionism. Yeah. External conflicts. He returns. He does more external fighting, more wars abroad following that. Yes. So he keeps going back to those vassal states into what is now modern Syria. So that's where Kadesh is.

And there are clearly, yeah. He's fighting against the Hittites, and there are various changes in leadership. So there does come a point in the 20s, Reginal years 20 and up, where maybe he's a little bit older, and maybe he's thinking, I don't want to keep going back. And that is when you get a more decisive treaty, and you get a sense that other states in the ancient Levant are more used to compromise, whereas the Egyptians want all or nothing. Maybe that's just the nature of what's recorded or maybe that's actually the social reality,

the political reality and other parts of the world. But in Egypt, they accept a peace treaty which is sealed by a marriage, a diplomatic marriage. And this is fascinating because we do have an insight into the exchanges between the royal courts. And so you have Ramesses the second two as a very wealthy individual who's commissioning all these temples and statues and is really, you know, is one of the great rulers of the ancient world, pleading

with, not pleading, but kind of pleading poverty and saying he wants the dowry of the incoming bride to be more than what is being offered. And so it seems that the bride's mother, the queen mother essentially, is pushing the hard bargaining. So we shouldn't just imagine these conflicts are played out in the battlefield. Yes, they are, and there are repeated attempts to secure Kadesh.

But latterly, maybe when the fight, the fire leaves Ramesses a bit, he is more content to seal things with a diplomatic marriage. And that is a one-sided thing because the king of Egypt

would never give a daughter of his own. An Egyptian princess has never sent to a non-Egyptian court, but it is acceptable for a non-Egyptian princess with a hefty dowry to come to Egypt, and that is considered

a victory. But that is interesting the fact that that's maybe some 15 years after the Bastard of Kadesh. So there's still a long period of time when Ramesses is going back up to Syria, the area around Kadesh again and again to try and get that elusive total victory over the Hittai

It's that all-or-nothing feeling, that nothing idea. But ultimately, as he gets a bit older, maybe he's a bit tired of going up to Kedesh again. And again, he ultimately decides to get some sort of compromise, and the Hittites are just like, yeah, we kind of want to compromise too now. Yeah, let's just call it a drawing. We'll be mutually beneficial. I think what actually happens in terms of on the ground,

you know, we're talking about relatively small areas of land. There must be a kind of, the Egyptians think they, secure some assurance of loyalty, and then they leave, and then sides are switched, and it's like this punching judy show. And then eventually, as you say, yeah, when Ramsey's is a bit older, he's content to have the peace treaty. Because is it almost like, when you think of it on the larger scale of things, if the Egyptians lose Kadesh to the Hittites, it's not the end of the world. It's hundreds of miles away from Egypt and the hearts of ancient Egypt. But because Kadesh has been in the control of Egyptians back in the 18th dynasty or whatever, is it's symbolic importance,

almost like, dare I say, like Starlingrad was for the USSR in World War II, not one step back. Do you think that's part of the reason that might have driven Ramesses's to keep going back? Yes, I think there is some of that internal motivation. And again, practically speaking, you know, if you walk into Karnak and you can read hieroglyphic inscriptions, you know, Ramsey's the second would be reminded of Tupmos the Third. It would be the, there. He's the zenith of the preceding 18th. And he is, you know, he has set the bar

for expansionism of pushing to its limit that area of influence, as we were saying before. Not necessarily an empire, but an area of real influence and the buffer zone against these bigger and nastier powers that, in any case,

are some distance away. But on that point actually, about the whole reign of Ramsey's the second, there is a, there is a practical element to this in that in the reign of Tupmo's the third, he was setting off from the capital city at Memphis, which is essentially modern Cairo. But with the reign of Ramesses II, maybe a little before then, there is a shift, a strategic shift to move this incredible royal city. And if we define the capital city as the place the

King spends most time in, the principal palace, that is Paramese. Okay. So that is on the northeast edge of the Nile Delta. So strategically, it is closest to launch an expedition into

the Levant. It is also provided, I know I have friends who've excavated that site, it's provided with huge stables to get the horses and to have your infantry barrack there. So you have a kind a sense of a standing army

and we know from monumental sources tied interestingly closely to the cult of Ramesses II as a god so at the same time as the military preparation is being ramped up so as the idea of Ramesses being a god so you're fighting for a god

not just the king there's lots of evidence of the worship of statues of Ramesses II and all the worshippers are members of the military so you you really get that sense of, okay, there is

ambition, maybe, anxiety is another word, that you have this city, which is essentially an island, that you couldn't attack. If there was an attack from, you know, the Hittites, you would see the people invading

force some distance away. And also you have a kind of standing army waiting. So there is also this feeling of that Paramese being like a border frontier town. So if the worst were to happen, Egypt would be prepared.

So these skirmishes and the who owns who or who is loyal to who may seem trivial, but the bigger political, geopolitical, military question is with these rising empires, if something really catastrophic happens and God forbid there was an invasion because this has happened to the Egyptians before

and will happen many times in the future the Egyptians need to be prepared. So on the eastern front you have, I mean, Parameses is the one, but we know Ramesses is also building on the western front towards Libya, and so the western most, like 200

kilometers, west of the westernmost branch of the Nile at the time, is a site called Zawait-Mul-Rackam. It's a site I've worked at myself as a student. Very impressive. We know about the garrison commander. Is that

Professor Stephen Snape's. Indeed. That's his excavation. Yes, Stephen Snape's Liverpool University excavations uncovered really interesting evidence of kind of local interactions like the local population

interacting with the fortress but also prepared in case there was a major influx of Libyans from the West and they were right to be suspicious because that's what happens in the reign of Ramsey's son

which is so interesting that kind of foresight there. But of course you've also got Egypt at that time yes we won't say an empire but the control of Egypt does go all the way quite far upriver than Nala into Sudan. Yeah deep into Sudan. In Junebia and you've got Bhutan fortress or place like that

you've got big fortresses in the south as well. Yeah I mean these have been established probably since the old kingdom but big fortresses built in the middle kingdom and then we know yeah Tum was the first Timor's the third really pushed the boundaries there so

I think it's fair to say there's more general success in beating up the Nubians than there is controlling these people in the Levant. But it doesn't really matter to the ancient Egyptians. Anyone who's not an ancient Egyptian is to be pitied or despised and to be crushed under the pharaoh's sandals. So that is how they are depicted in art and that is how they are presented to the gods and that is how the universe works. Parameses position, and we mentioned Parameses in our previous chat. It's how its founding seems to be actually associated with Ramesses the second's grandfather, the first Ramesses.

The name, yeah. The house of Ramesses, it's an apt metaphor for not just the physical residence of a whole line of kings, but also for the house, the actual dynasty that continues, of course, for many generations. And his capital and in that position, looking towards Syria and the Levant, shows that that really seems to be his top foreign policy priority for the first couple of decades of his reign until he gets the peace treaty.

Yes, and the peace treaty maybe marks something of a pause, and then he really focuses on building. But he's been building for some time. It's interesting with Ramesses II, unlike his father said to the first, I mean, there is a, yeah, subjectively speaking, there is a objectively perhaps speaking as well. there is a decline in the quality of artwork, although Ramicide art, the art of Ramesses the second still is very beautiful. It's maybe not quite as finely executed as that of his father, but you get the impression as the rain progresses, even though he's got a lot of building under his belt, he wants to bash it out quicker and more of it and the quality even seems to decline further. It's just more, more, more, more, more, more. Keep these people

occupied. Well, we're going to explore all of that in these various different monumental works. But quickly on the peace treaty itself, one of the oldest known peace treaties in the world. Possibly the oldest. Possibly. Challenge me. I don't know of a good example to challenge it. Possibly the oldest peace treaty we know of in the world. Do we have the wording surviving? Yes. This is telling because the Egyptians are proud of this. And it's not a peace treaty is not a type of text, it's not a genre of monumental inscription that was common to

the ancient Egyptians to make a treaty with other people, but in this case it is sealed by diplomatic marriage, there's a lot of towing and throwing about the content of dowries, but the princess comes in and becomes a wife of Ramsey's the second

and it's interesting that this must have quite a cultural impact the coming of this lady into the royal court so that there is the first marriage and then there is a second marriage a few years later. But even, gosh, a thousand years later into the Ptolemaic period, there is a fascinating document that's now in Paris called the Bentresch Stila which describes the sending of a statue of an Egyptian god into the Levant to cure a relative of one of the vassal kingdoms.

And that seems to be a genuine reflection on the great. esteem with which Egyptian doctors are viewed. So it's not just a military thing of, I'll beat you up, or we'll have a peace treaty. If there's a peace treaty, the Egyptian Pharaoh might send one of his effective physicians, or might send a healing statue of a god. And so there are real, to ancient people, real palpable benefits, which we might think of as being quite superstitious. But are they also signals of the new friendship between the powers?

Is it well, you know, this peaceful, almost like with the, you know, post-Cold War with it, you know, you've got the cosmonauts and the astronauts together on the space station. Yeah, that's a nice analogy, yeah. So the courts are, yeah, clearly in communication, and they do send gifts between the two of them. And that's some kind of assurance. And indeed, this peace treaty text makes clear that, they will, you know, mutually assure the succession of each kingdom and help against a third party attacker. So there is that sense of what we would recognize as a modern treaty.

Because you've also got the Hittite version of it surviving that they've discovered in Hattusa, I think. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And then I think they got a copy in the UN or something like that to kind of the oldest peace treaties in the world. So yeah, it's all very interesting, you know, the symbolic importance of it, the legacy of it down to the day, as physical evidence of diplomacy more than a thousand years ago. Yeah, impressive. But let's move on from that. So let's go on to his monumental building work in Egypt itself,

which he's been doing already, following in the footsteps of his dad, completing stuff. But once this peace treaty is signed, do we get a sense that almost he flicks the switch to focus almost completely on the great building works in Egypt? Yeah, I mean, it must be something also to do with physicality. So approaching his 30th year on the throne. So he maybe is approaching 50 by this point, years of age.

He's maybe less inclined to be going out into battle. He can still send sons, and he's got plenty of sons, up to 50 sons, but we'll also come back to the sons. But in the ancient world, if you have been on the throne for 30 years, you are a pretty big deal. but that also marks for the ancient Egyptians a very significant milestone the so-called Hebb Said

which is what we might call a jubilee today but is a kind of an affirmation of the king's power and a confirmation or a conferral of divinity so the king is always a bit divine but Ramesses the second really goes further and it does seem to be inspired by this point in time where there's a de-emphasizing of military activity

and a greater emphasis on religious iconography and belief. So he really says, Ramsey's the Second, says he's not just part divine, he is a full god shoulder to shoulder with other gods, and he's represented on temple walls, in statues, and has his own extraordinary statue cult, where people, including the military personnel at Paramse's, are using images, huge colossal

statue images of the king as means of answering their prayers. So shall we do a case study of this? Shall we focus on Abu Symbol? Why not? That's a great monumental example of this. So give us a flavour. What first and foremost is Abu Symbol and where are we talking about? So we're talking about the southernmost point really.

the modern borders of Egypt on the shores of what is now Lake Nassar, so into ancient Nubia. So many miles south of the traditional Egyptian border at Aswan. So a reductive reading is to say that this is a way of intimidating the Nubians. Look, there are these colossal statues, four colossal statues of the king on one temple. There's a great rock-cut temple with these four striking images, seated images of the king. But there's another temple dedicated to his wife, Queen Nefertari, the chief queen, whom he seems to have loved very much, and she is equated with the goddess Hathor. So they are saying his and hers, the king is a god, the queen is a god,

people should come and worship us because we are deserving of worship like full gods. And this is really an important point, it's something I've written about, that we've got to understand these avatars these divine avatars of Ramesses there's a whole series of them they all have different names they can be materialised

through statues and you can worship the statue and hopefully get your prayers answered but in the innermost part of that Abu symbol great temple the Holy of Holies there is seat

of the great gods Ptah Reharach at a moon and sat quite literally shoulders to shoulder with him is Ramesses the second and it's really an emphatic point of I am a full

god and I can I have this equivalence to the great gods now interesting to me is in the decorative scheme as the interior of this structure was being completed the decoration

which is probably the 20s of the rain right so we're getting He's already seeing himself as divine before he reaches that big Jubilee milestone. And it seems to be a developing idea because there are clear scenes. I know you've been to the temple and it's worth looking out on the walls if you go.

There are clearly scenes where there were gods, Amun, the great god of Karnak, Thebes, his wife, the goddess moot. And the figure of Ramesses has been inserted as an afterthought. So it's not part of the original scheme. So someone has had the thought actually will put the king here.

So that, I mean, it's rare you can say you can see a developing theology but that is something where the idea of Ramsey's God has not been originally planned but developed with the building. Because you also see in that first room as you enter Abbey's symbol, don't you? You see, it's him in his chariots

or he's very much him also as a military figure as well. So it's not just promoting him as divine. That is a key part of it and those colossal statues of him seated if he stood up. He would tower above the temple itself. But it's still harkening back to him also as a successful military

figure and the head of this royal family as well, I guess. Yeah, he must be proud of the military albeit we might consider it a draw now. But it's kind of a challenge and we know other earlier kings did this, a challenge to his successors to maintain

his boundaries and maintain his sphere of influence if we want to call it that and because he lived so long we know this in various instances throughout history if you spend a long time on the throne it is more difficult

for the eventual successor especially if like Ramesses you have 50 sons and sure many of them died he was eventually succeeded by his 13th son, Merimbatah. But there are other sons. I mean, the fourth son is especially interesting to me, Prince Chaim Wassett. He is credited by some with being the first Egyptologist.

Because he is the one who goes around labeling the pyramids. So he's the high priest of the god Bhattah at Memphis, so near modern Cairo. and in that role he is very aware of the sacred landscape which is, you know, littered with massive pyramids, but to a son of Ramesses the second to go out into the desert and to see not that far into the desert, still visible from the floodplain, but to see a monument that's so vast, so impressive, so pristine, without any hieroglyphs on it, telling you who the king is, this seems crazy. the son of a megalomaniac like Ramesses 2nd. So he goes along and inscribes

very deep, elaborate inscriptions what have been called by one great Scottish Egyptologist Kenneth Kitchen as the largest museum label in the world telling future generations this is the pyramid of Kufu. This is the pyramid of UNAS. This is the pyramid of Jocer.

And I, Prince Kalamwasa, have restored the name of this king because it was not found on the surface of his monument and I'm the son of the great king Ramesses II. So Ramesses the 2nd gets his name put on all of these ancient monuments. So it's not just in the hyperstyle hall at Karnak, it's not just

the great Templar Abu symbol. It's also on the pyramids. On the pyramids. That you have Ramesses's his name as well. Yes. And do we get a sense with his many children, his many sons? Do we have any sense if he had any favourites? Oh, I would

Oh, difficult to say, based on the evidence as it survives, Prince Kiam Wasett is interesting because he helps organise his father's Hebsed Jubilee festivals. And so he is often shown in an association with the father. So in a cynical way, it's a great way for Kaim Wassett who maybe thinks his dad's going to live forever. And best to make the most of his lot. Now, it's not a million miles away from the Prince of Wales, thinking, as Charles Prince of Wales did, I've got to make the most of this because it's what I'm going to be doing for most of my life. But whether Kaan was it expected to be the next Pharaoh is difficult to say. As I said, I mean, obviously if someone dies, that removes them from the line of succession. but I think there had to be very careful

yeah careful planning for a smooth transition of power and I think the best evidence that Rameses liked one of his sons was that he would designate him as the heir so eventually the air Merrimbatah must have been favoured absolutely because

go back to Rhabi Symbol once again just because I haven't been there recently when you get close to the colossal statues of Rameses you also see smaller depictions of a few of his wives and a few of his children believed as well. So, somewhere's the ones that... I know you're not supposed to have favourites,

but there are a few that he picked to place alongside him on this temple to himself. Yeah, I think those must be, as far as we know the ones that are inscribed, or identified by inscription, they are the more senior ones. Interesting.

And you wonder, because he lived so long, whether some of those had already died. So this was, a way of commemorating them. He had a special tomb, a vast tomb built in the Valley of the Kings, KV5, for the children for the sons.

But then it's also a thing about the psychology of Ramsey's the 2nd because he lives a long life. He's on the throne, 6 to 6 years. So assuming he comes to the throne, say at 24, he's 90 by the time

he dies. Which is very good going. for an ancient ruler, albeit he had the best doctors and lived a life of great luxury. But you could imagine, you know, as you see, your children die, your wives die, your grandchildren die, maybe you, Ramsey's thought, I am a god, I'm not going to die. I must also ask, obviously that thing, the beating heart of Egypt is the Nile.

And every year you have the annual floods, don't you? Which determines the, you know, how the great, well, how successful the agricultural yield will be the next year. And like if the flooding is too low, then it could lead to famine. Do we get a sense, I mean, is there any surviving archaeology that hints

that there were times in Ramesses's reign where they had a lot of trouble from flood and stuff like that? Or was he just in a very good century where everything worked his way in that regard? Good question. I mean, we do have Nile flood heights levels from different

kings reigns I don't think anything was particularly catastrophically low or high of course if it's too much

it's a bad thing as well it spells bad news but I think looked at another way you're right it could be that he was just

doing well whereas later kings like Ramesses the 3rd we know just happened to get a bad run

and ruled under some more economically straightened times. Well, I could ask so many more questions about Ramesses but I know we've got to move on. So let's go to nearing the end of Ramesses's reign. So all of those children, he's outlived, many of them by this time

as well. Many of his wives are dead as well. But this time, Nefertari certainly asked the picture. Yeah, Nefertari, to whom he dedicated that smaller temple at Abu Semble, seems to be the first senior wife. That's clear. But then there is a second senior wife, Isset Noffret, who's the mother of Kaimwasa and also of Mirin Patah. Right.

So she's important, probably buried somewhere at Sakara. And yes, eventually her son, the 13th son, Merrim Patah becomes king. And he was so sorry, I must be also mentioned the Ramasium, because we haven't really touched on the tools, yes. And this is, it's named after himself, but what is it? Well, we nowadays call it the Ramasium. That's how it's called if you visit Egypt today. for yeah more recent times

it was called the Memnonium because it was associated with Memnon which is actually a name given to the Closci which are associated with Amunhotep the third but in ancient times it was known as a mansion of millions of years so this is a little hobby horse of mine I don't like referring to these as funerary temples or mortuary temples because this over-emphasises death

It's not about death. It's not about, you know, mourning the king. It's about the king becoming united with the gods. And so Ramesses the second's temple really is vast. And it's one of the first, if not the first, that has the outer pylon gateway made of stone. Previous temples had them made of mud brick, and they simply haven't survived.

But now I know that those colleagues in Egypt are working on the restoration of the, the pylon, so it should be more visible and more visible in future, it really was an impressive structure, and it was the direct inspiration for one of Ramsey's successors, Ramsey's the third. So basically, his temple, what's now called Medinatabu, is not a carbon copy, but an homage to the mansion of millions of years of Ramsey's the second called the Ramaseum today. And was that where Ramesses wanted to be buried? No, this is an important point. It's willfully, consciously

at a distance from the tomb. And that's from the Valley of the Kings. The Valley of the Kings is the cemetery. That's where the royal sepulchres are, which is over a kilometer away. But the temple is for people to visit, to leave offerings, and to celebrate the eternal cult of the king,

the union of the king with various gods. And that will be where many, many, many centuries later, Belzoni will find that colossal statue, the head of which is in the British Museum today. Indeed, the younger Memnon, yes. That's inspired a piece of poetry, will not get to you in a bit later, yes, absolutely. Well, okay, 66 years on, I do know much about the end of Ramesses's reign and the state of Egypt at that time.

Is there almost a decline in his power, or is Egypt declining as he's getting older? Do we know anything about it? It's difficult to have a reliable index of, you know, GDP. for ancient ages or the equivalent. But suffice it to say, I mean, he would have been the only king almost everyone had ever known. So I think when he did eventually shuffle off this mortal coil, there would have been a lot of head scratching

about how to actually do a pharaoh's funeral. But you can tell that there are problems set up in store for his eventual successor, Miram Patah. and he seems to have made a pretty good goal. We have a kind of uptick then in evidence of foreign interactions and foreign policy because he has to deal with active, yeah, pressing issues from the West, from the Libyans, issues in the North, in the Levant, and then back down south, the Nubians. So, Mareem-Batar, let's focus on these threats that he faces, because his is not a name,

anywhere as recognisable as Ramesses the second. So talk is like we should try and know light on this figure like we did with Ramesses I'm Setti. Merriman Patar, what do we know about the struggles that he faces? Well, we've got quite a bit of historical information

almost like he makes an effort to put his stamp on history. And again, older king coming to the throne, he maybe is in his 60s, if not 70 when he comes to the throne. There's a sort of a Charles III thing. He's the 13th Sunnalsary of Ramsey's 70.

Well, and maybe, well, exactly, he wasn't preparing to be the king throughout his whole life. He had older brothers. He clearly wants to record his own active engagement with these foreign powers. So there are sources like the so-called Israel Steelers. So this is a reused monument. of an earlier king of Amunhotip the third, where the back of it is inscribed

with various campaigns. And there are lots of these things actually, relatively speaking. And it's the first historic mention of the people of Israel. Israel as a people, isn't it? As a people. So historically very, very interesting.

But also, Marempata goes around, again, you get the sense, maybe reading a little bit between the lines, that he thinks he, He doesn't have long, because he's quite old already, and he does rule for almost 10 years, so, you know, he does okay. And he puts his name on wherever there is an empty space, because he doesn't have the time to commission new monuments, he just whaps his name on, whether it's statues of older kings, whether it's columns. We have an example in Manchester Museum, where it's an older Middle Kingdom column of granite. Ramesses the second has his name and image

worshipping a god on it and then Merrim Patah has had his name added as well so there's this sense of you know yeah fighting against time but I think the real success of Merin Patan it's a shame he's not better known is that he actively manages

to campaign quite actively against powers from the east and the west and the south with time the dynasty there's lots of internal struggles for a few generations But then by the time of Ramesses the 3rd, you get active incursions. You get the sea peoples, this kind of motley crew of people from the Mediterranean.

You get the Libyans actively coming over and being quite threatening. And all of this seems to be held at bay by Merrimbatah. So he maybe gets undeservedly short shrift because he's overshadowed by his father. and people often say Ramsey's the third is the last great king of ancient Egypt, but Merrim Patah must have had a pretty, you know, involved training in his youth. So maybe he's in his 60s not actively going out fighting, but he's able to, I guess, reflect on his experience of being the son of Ramsey's the second and strategize to head off problems which become serious problems

in the decades after his reign. So those military problems that he faces, during his only a decade or so on the throne, it's quite interesting how you have, you know, Ramsey's the second ruling for so long, then almost as soon as he dies, you have Libyans, the emergence of the sea peoples, you have the Nubians revolting as well, and Meryn-Patar almost is one, he has to deal with it. Do we think that's potentially a feeling that enemies were circling? They see the death of a pharaoh, they see Merrimbatar come to the throne quite elderly, they feel that there's an opportunity here?

Yes, absolutely. And I think there was always that looking for an opportunity when religiously, theologically, it's a very vulnerable time for the country between the change of monarch. I mean, there is something, without forcing modern parallels on it, there was something about the death of Elizabeth II

where people were really kind of shaken by it and you feel like it's a kind of a cosmic, whether you're a great monarchist or not, there is some kind of cosmic shift and for the ancient Egyptians that really was a cosmic shift so you would take the chance

if you're going to make trouble for the Egyptian state you will wait until yeah one of these kind of transitional moments this almost feels a bit like Edward the 7th after Queen Victoria or something like that it's quite odd isn't but he doesn't rain too long

but you don't associate the complete crumbling of a dynasty I guess with him following I mean I'm not an expert on that No, I think the parallel is justified, yeah. And so you get Mareembitah for a decade or so, and he is successful in beating off the sea peoples, the first emergence of the sea peoples on the sea.

Yes, I mean, we don't have many records from his own mansion of millions of years because it's not terribly well preserved, but there are other bits of historical accounts that really make it clear that the sea peoples and other non-Egyptian threats are serious. And so maybe we know in the case of Zawaitamul-Rakam on the north coast, the Mediterranean course, that's the fortress in the northwest, that, you know, things are happening.

You know, there is a tangible threat from the people to the west. And eventually, you know, with time, a few couple of hundred years later, there will be Libyan kings of Egypt. So it will go so far as to be, you know, a Libyan face. on the throne. But Merembatar is the accepted ruler, but

of course there are all these other princelings about, and that creates rivals for the throne, for sure. So Meremptar dies after some 10 years or so. What happens following that? Does it all go to pieces quite quickly after he dies? Must be around 80 years old by that time.

Yeah, I think there is a sense in which things do fall apart, historically speaking, pretty quickly. The 19th dynasty only has a couple of decades left to go. There are a series of short-lived kings. This is the end of the 19th dynasty. And then you get to a young king called Sipta, who has a female regent called Tawazaret. And she is really the end. She is a female pharaoh end of the line. She rules quite effectively, it seems, for a few years. But then there's this shadowy figure, this high-ranking courtier called Bai, who is like a 19th dynasty

equivalent of the much-loved, in my case, character of Senenmuth, the right-hand man to hatchet suit in Dynasty 18. So, Tawazrit is ruling the last of the House of Ramsey's. And then you get this new guy, a guy called Seth Nacht, and he comes on the scene and usurps Tawazrit's tomb in the Valley of the Kings still one of the most interesting tombs in the Valley of the Kings at Thebes so the dynasty shifts then and there's new blood comes in

and we begin Dynasty 20 with Seth Nacht and then his successor, Ramsey's the 3rd. Do you think Tawazeret's reign as Pharaoh was always destined to end that way because just how they viewed a woman as a pharaoh? This is tricky. This is really tricky and it's something I've thought about a bit.

she does get mentioned in an official list of kings a document that's here in canon so it's acceptable that there is this this woman in a sense and so she rules fairly successfully for a few years

she builds things and you know there are foundation deposits attesting to her building works but she only rules for a handful of years and then is succeeded by someone called Seth Nacht and he is a new guy

so that is the time of the 19th dynasty is up by that point and it's a new bloodline but the fact that there is this character this Chancellor Bai who and it's a very rare case we have evidence of him being put to death

so there is a mention of execution of this guy which backstabbing must have gone on we know about it with the Ptolemies but it must have gone on throughout phronic history but this is a very rare insight in to a very what must have been not uncommon, but it's unusual it's recorded.

And then she is succeeded by this man, this new guy, set nach, and he has a successor whose Ramsey's the Third. So all of this happens from the death of Miramatta to the succession of Ramsey's the third in a few decades. So within, yes, like three or four decades after the death of Ramsey's the second, his dynasty has come crashing down. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he might have planned, and indeed his father and grandfather planned

and initiated this great sweep of history and thought their successors would keep going into the future. But in real terms, in terms of blood relations, pure blood relations, the dynasty fizzles out and dies. When Seth Nachton eventually, Ramsey's the third come along, they offer the appearance of stability, which is fine but the economic and social changes

within Egypt are real as are the foreign threats the non-Egyptian the outsider threats as we were discussing before the geopolitics even between set of the first and Ramsey's the second which isn't a long time

there's lots of shifts there fast forward to the reign of Ramsey's the third and I mean he claims various very and his well-recorded accounts in his mansion of millions of years, but this really heralds the end of the new kingdom and the rise of, yeah, other powers in the ancient world. It is too interesting, Campbell, how, you know, it's still a long time, I guess, in the grand scheme of things between Ramsey's the second and then Ramsey's the third, which you say is

another of those kind of big-name figures. The strength of Ramsey's the second, is it more just a personal, image that, you know, dies out soon after his death and actually he doesn't really leave anything that can endure for a long, long time. He doesn't build anything with an idea that he plans for it to endure for hundreds of years. Is it very much, it's just an image of his strength during his reign and then that just disappears and the solidity that he thought he'd created evaporates rather than him actually wanting to create something stable for, well, maybe in his eyes, millennia.

I think with the legacy of Ramsey's the second, in part, I mean, his own reign is a lot about spin, and he focuses a lot on his own personality and divine personality when he's alive. This is something, again, to emphasize, the cult of the king through these statues, these cult colossi, as I term them, only are really supercharged with the divine power during his lifetime, they kind of fade into the background after his death. So to be fair to the successes of Ramsey's II, they have to deal with other challenges, which Ramsey's II didn't have to deal with. There's another practical thing, though, the great city that he embellished per Ramsey's

suffers because the branch of the Nile, it's on, silt's up. So it's not functional. So it's unforeseen, you know, future events that kind of really hinder his legacy. we're not actually paying attention to it. Yes, I think that's fair. To be fair to Ramesses II, who must have been quite a dynamic guy to give him his fair due. I think, yeah, his successors

had to deal with things, which, yeah, totally unforeseen on his part. It does make the question, is Ramesses the second? Is he really the great? Or is he just the absolute master of spin? I mean, he's the greatest in the sense that he had most time to tell us

he was great. Yeah, he's the loudest rule he's the loudest. Yeah, I mean, if Hatchip Suit had been a man and had ruled for 60 years, we would have no doubt about her, his greatness. And, I mean, it's true,

though we do have evidence of, you know, the cult of Ramsey's the second persisting in places like Abidoss, you know, there is evidence of the worship of Ramsey's the second in certain places. And then his body, of course, survives. He's buried in the Valley of the Kings.

The body has moved to the Royal Mummy Cash in Dior al-Bakhri, DB 320. And then when that's discovered officially in 1881, that starts a whole new, weird afterlife for Ramesses II, where his body, it seems, is so well preserved. He's assumed to be the Pharaoh of the Exodus. So we do have the actual body of Ramesses? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He goes a bit moldy in the 1970s and the sent to Paris for defungal treatment. So having the face of this man, so it's not just the statues, of course the statues don't look anything like he would have done when he was alive and people have tried to extrapolate from his mummified body what he might have looked like. We'll never really know.

Just to be clear, that's another hobby horse of mine. But having the body, and especially when it was unwrapped in the 1880s, was shocking. and surprising and thrilling. So in popular culture, you know, that's one of the most popular postcards you could buy. In the late 1800s was the mummified face of Ramesses II. So he gains a totally unexpected popularity. You know, the cover of an Iron Maiden album is inspired by Abu Symbol. You know, things like that.

He speaks to modernity in our experience of tyrants and autocrats and dictators because I don't imagine Ramsey's the second presided over a democracy so there's something about his character we still are kind of seduced by

even though he was probably pretty autocratic he built so many statues he had so many battles he had so many children you know we can't help but have this grudging respect and his name is everywhere

on so many of the great monuments whether it's the pyramids or Karnak or Abu Symbol if there's one name to learn, one cartouche to learn, it's Ramesses the second Usur Matra, Saitipenra. If you learn those hieroglyphs, you will see them all

over Egypt. Well, that was the one the first, if not the first, that Champollion figured out. Indeed, because it was so when he went there, I think he was amazed just at how common it was. Well, I'm glad you mentioned the 19th century because I have a copy here of the famous Percy Shelley poem

Ozi Mandius, and Oseimandias, he's a Greek rendering for the name Ramsey. He's a poem that highlights the inevitable decline of rulers and their hubris. So I'll read it out now because I feel I must. I met a traveller from an antique land who said, two vast and trunkless legs of stone, sand in the desert, near them on the sand half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown and wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command, tell that it sculptor well those passions read which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things. The hand that mocked them and the heart that fell.

and on the pedestal these words appear. My name is Ozymandius, king of kings. Look on my works, ye mighty and despair. No thing beside remains. Round the decay of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare, the lone and level sands stretch far away. Interesting, isn't it? Very poetic.

Not one for poems, and I've probably butchered the reading of that. I must admit, I didn't do enough English literature growing up. But it's interesting how in Victorian times they have that idea of Ramesses, even back then. Yeah, and I think what really inspired that poem was a kind of frenzy surrounding the arrival in London of that colossal sculpture fragment you mentioned before, the so-called Younger Memnon, which is now in the British Museum. So, yeah, in 1816, it was moved by Belzoni, and eventually a couple of years later it arrived in London. And it wasn't an interest in Ramesses II. it was just in the size of the statue. It's interesting Shelley talks about Ramsey,

or well, Ozymandius, King of Kings. That is one of the names of the colossal statues that I said worshipped. Ramesses, ruler of rulers, Hecca in Hekahu. So there's this reverberation of this character, for he must have been an impressive character. Yes, he had the opportunity to build,

to battle, to marry, to procreate over 66 years. but there's something about the brokenness of the monuments of him and other kings that does appeal as quite romantic. It's almost like proof, especially for Christian people, that these pagan kings were cut down to size by the true God. This idea that no matter how powerful and brilliant he was in his prime, how quickly that legacy can shatter in the years following. And in the case of Ramesses and his successes, it shatters pretty quickly.

indeed. Campbell, this has been absolutely fantastic. I mean, there's so much we could talk about with the real reign of Ramesses and Merrimpitar as well and what happens all the way down to Towers Ret. But it's a fascinating time period. Is there anything else you'd like to mention about Ramesses or how we should view this figure going forward? I think in some ways he gets a bad press because it's all Wham Bam, thank you, Ram. But I think Ramesses, I mean, he does have a legacy in that he gives his name to so many others. So many others. Not going back to Ramesses the second. Yes, and I think if you asked a king 500 years later,

who was the greatest pharaoh of ancient Egypt, it would be difficult for them to choose between Tupmos the third and Ramsey's the second. So that's a crazy... How many Ramses are there in total? So there were 11 king called Ramsey's, but later kings, even than Ramsey's the 11th, take the throne name Usur Matra. So there is clearly an homage going on.

on there. Campbell, always a pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the show. Thank you for having me. Well, there you go. There was Dr. Campbell Price continuing the story of the Ramassid dynasty. The 19th dynasty, defined, epitomized by the legendary Thero Rameses, the second Rameses. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Thank you so much for listening. Now, if you enjoyed the episode, if you're enjoying the show, please make sure to follow the ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. That really helps us and you will be doing us a big favour.

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