The Ancients - Ravenna and the Fall of Rome

Episode Date: June 8, 2023

The fall of the Western Roman Empire stands as one of the most monumental moments in ancient history, symbolising the end of centuries of Roman dominance in the Mediterranean. However, amidst the crumbling of Rome, the city of Ravenna emerged as a prominent center, eventually surpassing Milan as the new capital. This begs the question: how did Ravenna attain such significance, and what insights can we glean from the art and architecture that remain there today, particularly from the 5th and 6th centuries?In this episode, Tristan invites Professor Judith Herrin on to the podcast, to delve into the rise and fall of Ravenna's prominence. Together, they explore its intricate connections with the Western Roman Empire, its interactions with notable entities like the Goths, and the awe-inspiring Christian architecture that adorned its landscape. What can we learn from uncovering the secrets of Ravenna, why did it hold such immense importance?Discover the past on History Hit with ad-free original podcasts and documentaries released weekly presented by world renowned historians like Dan Snow, Suzannah Lipscomb, Lucy Worsely, Matt Lewis, Tristan Hughes and more. Get 50% off your first 3 months with code ANCIENTS. Download the app on your smart TV or in the app store or sign up at here.You can take part in our listener survey here.If you'd like to learn even more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today! To download, go to Android or Apple store

Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. And in today's episode, well, we're going quite late in ancient history today. Some might even argue that we are dipping our toes into early medieval history too. We're going to the 5th and 6th centuries of Italy. The fall of the Western Roman Empire, the fall of Rome,

but also, at this time, the rise of another city, of Ravenna. Ravenna becomes the last capital of the Western Roman Empire. It's where the Western Roman Empire reaches arguably its end in 476 with the abdication of the last Roman Emperor. It's a really interesting time because Ravenna, it doesn't replace Rome as the capital straight off because first that title goes to Milan and then from Milan, as you're going to hear, the title of capital of the Roman Empire is passed on to Ravenna. What is so interesting is that Ravenna during this period and even following 476 when you see the emergence of a Gothic kingdom led by figures such as Odoacer and Theoderic the Great,

well Ravenna, rather than entering a decline, it enters its golden age, filled with beautiful churches and amazing early Christian art. It's one of the greatest centres of early Christian art in the world. Now to explain Ravenna's story during these centuries, I was delighted to head up to Oxford a couple of weeks back to interview the wonderful professor Judith Herron. Judith knows all things about Ravenna at this time. She's written a very detailed book all about it, a highly praised book too. I really do hope you enjoy and here's Judith.

Judith, it is wonderful to have you on the podcast today. Thank you, it's a pleasure to be here. Not at all and for a topic like this, Ravenna, I did not know how much early Christian art there was in this town. And it almost feels as if you almost get this perception of other cities in the Western Roman Empire, they're starting to decline during that period. But actually, Ravenna, it stands out. This is the start of its golden age almost. Yes, this is the most extraordinary thing. And I suppose it's partly because after the 7th century, Ravenna really lost all its prominence. First Comacchio and then Venice took over its trading routes and its

activity in the Adriatic, and it became a small city with its own council, and it was self-governing like most Renaissance cities. But it doesn't have a great Renaissance art. What it has are churches that were maintained with their original early Christian decoration and used by the clergy and doubtless the population. And the city was not important enough for the bishops to insist on rebuilding a great deal, although, of course, they did pull down the original cathedral and build a baroque monstrosity, but only one. churches were allowed to continue with their original decoration. So that it's a little cluster of things that you don't find elsewhere, because in Rome, where there was indeed an enormous amount of early Christian mosaic decoration, much of it was improved and removed and replaced by later popes who wanted to put up their own decoration of the style of the

later Middle Ages and then of course in the modern period. Tremendous Renaissance activity, which has destroyed a great deal of Rome in early Christendom. And this golden age for Ravenna, when roughly, what dates are we talking about? It must begin when the Emperor Honorius was advised that he couldn't remain in Milan, which was his imperial capital and had been the imperial capital in the West for decades or even a century. And he was advised that Ravenna was a stronghold where he would be safe and it was defendable because it was a smaller city with smaller city walls and they had enough soldiers to defend him.

And so in 402 he ordered that the imperial court and everybody attached to it should pack up and move to Ravenna, which was the capital of two joint provinces and so it wasn't a small centre. It had a governor, it had a naval commander because of course the port at Classey meant that it had a very important connection to the Mediterranean and between them the governor and the naval commander were very high-ranking officials who considered themselves very important. And I'm sure that they lived in a city that was properly fitted out with everything that a late Roman city needed. Hippodrome, churches, hospitals, all the things that are essential. And a lot of craftsmen who were very busy maintaining the navy,

not so active in the early 5th century, but nonetheless good for commercial activity up and down the Adriatic. And so it wasn't a major, major city, but it became the imperial capital in 402. And the first coins from the mint are struck in that year, so that's when we know Emperor Honorius was there taking up residence. As you mentioned, it is a good strategic and commercial centre. Does it feel like before that time, 402 and Honorius moving his capital there, is Ravenna's importance overshadowed by other cities in the Italian peninsula? Oh yes, clearly there were many other provincial capitals that were more important and Rome was always the seat of the ancient senate and the senatorial families although they had their

landowning estates in North Africa and in other parts of southern Gaul and Spain and France and Italy and Sicily. Nonetheless, Rome was still a major centre. And then there were so many other very important cities on main routes. And one of the interesting things about Ravenna is that although it was connected around the north of the Adriatic to the other side of the Adriatic, what we call Dalmatia, Croatia, Slovenia, now Albania and southern Greece, those routes were not as important as the routes that led out of Rome, the Via Appia, all the other major vias. And it was the Via Popolonia that came down from the curve of the north of the Asiatic and linked Ravenna with Rimini, Ancona and the centre of Italy. But there was no very clear and safe route between

Ravenna and Rome that didn't go through the Apennines. Up and up and up and up the mountains and down the other side. So crossing the mountains was always a barrier and Ravenna was on the wrong side of the barrier from the point of view of communication with Rome. But because it was in the estuary of the Po, it had river communication with Milan and through Milan and Pavia over the Alps into Transalpine Europe, France, Germany, and there there are indeed connections to all the roads that go south to Rome. But the river connection was very important for trade and of course visitors and travelers and merchants all used the system of boats that were manned between different cities on the River Po. When Sidonius Apollinaris

goes to visit Ravenna, he describes how they get to one city and the crew changes. He's on a boat, but the next lot of rowers get on because they know the next bit of the river. And then they go to the next city and then they get off and a different crew gets on or even they change boats so it's a major thoroughfare and it's very well manned and it carries people and goods up and down the river Poe so a good situation as you say in the early fifth century with the emperor Honorius but let's set the scene emperor Honorius what's the situation in his Roman empire at the turn of the 5th century? What issues does he have to deal with now that he's got his new capital at Ravenna? It's pretty disastrous. Although his father Theodosius I established that he, Honorius,

should rule in the west and his older brother, Arcadius, should rule in Constantinople in the east, the western half of the empire was already overrun by many, many non-Roman visitors, not guests. Many military organizations and groups eventually settled. And so governing the Roman Empire was extremely difficult in the early 5th century. And it was because Milan was threatened by the Goths under their fearsome leader Alaric that Honorius was advised he really ought to move. Milan was huge. It had a very, very large circuit of walls and couldn't be defended. So they upped and went to Ravenna.

So they upped and went to Ravenna. And from Ravenna, Honorius remained safe while Rome was indeed attacked and sacked by Alaric and the Goths in 410. So the situation in the West was really catastrophic. And the notion that Rome could be conquered by some non-Roman tribes was considered quite impossible. And St. Augustine writes how unimaginable it is. But of course, it persuades him to write about the city in a different sense, in the sense of the city of God, which is so much more important than the city that you call eternal Rome. But it is an astonishing thing that nobody had expected. Nobody had expected it indeed. And as you say, as Rome is sacked, Ravenna remains unscathed where the emperor Honorius is.

How does Ravenna therefore transform? How does it develop during the reign of Honorius in those first decades of the 5th century? Well, one of the first things we know is that his older brother Arcadius sent him four or five thousand troops to assist in the defence of the West. But instead of sending them to Rome to protect Rome because it was being besieged by Alaric, Honorius asked them to stay in Ravenna and help him and protect him. So there must have been capacity for garrisoning a large number of extra soldiers who arrived by sea. They were then part of the permanent Imperial force attached to Ravenna and we must assume that the Imperial government, the administration, was still issuing many

laws, there were many many appeals to the emperor. Activity in the administration of the empire was still very, very considerable. So there must have been enormous buildings erected for the government officials who had to be keeping all the records in triplicate and dealing with the administration of the empire, and, of course, sending out generals to defeat the enemy and maintaining as much control as possible over the rest of North Italy, over parts of southern Gaul, Provence, and along into Spain, which was still, at that stage, under Roman authority. So there was a lot to do do and Honorius was very busy. He issues quite a lot of laws,

although he isn't recorded as a great builder or great patron or a very active emperor. But I'm sure he built himself a palace or adapted somebody else's villa into a much grander place where he could hold court. And all his courtiers and their wives and children all had to be accommodated and they didn't want to be put up in barracks. They wanted to be in very grand villas as they had, which they built for themselves in Milan. So I'm sure the city must have expanded enormously and very quickly. And then it became much, much more

of what we'd recognise as an imperial capital, eventually with a larger circuit of walls and many, many churches. Well, let's delve into that Christian art and architecture. When do we start seeing the first real great patrons of Christian art and architecture in Ravenna? great patrons of Christian art and architecture in Ravenna? We don't know very much about the situation in the 4th century, but by the time Honorius arrives in 402, there are many patrons, bishops, and then his imperial relatives who set about creating monuments that befit an imperial capital, that enhance the beauty of the city of Ravenna. And it's his half-sister, Gala Placidia, younger, but born of the same father, Theodosius I, who had the misfortune to be captured by the Goths during the siege of Rome.

And was taken off to southern France and married to the Atholf, the Gothic leader, by whom she had a son who was named Theodosius after his grandfather. All the notion of a mixed marriage and the integration of Roman and Gothic traditions were manifest in this small child. But sadly, he died as a baby and was buried somewhere near Barcelona, where she was at that time. Anyway, she was finally ransomed by her half-brother, Honorius, who brought her back to Ravenna and married her off to a general. And she then set about building churches in a big way. We know that she was responsible for two major, large basilicas, she was responsible for two major large basilicas and one of them, the Church of the Holy Cross,

has attached to it a chapel that survives. The church has been rebuilt completely but the chapel that's attached is the so-called Mausoleum of Galla Placidia and it is one of the great jewels of this period of early Christendom. Most exquisite mosaics under a starry sky, very dark blue with lots of bright golden stars and representations of the symbols of the evangelists and the apostles, and deer and doves drinking at fountains in a sort of heavenly paradise. heavenly paradise. There's an image of Christ with the sheep and an image of a saint holding a cross walking towards a fiery grid which looks as if it may be prepared for Saint Lawrence. Lorenzo was burned on a grid. He was a martyr of the early Christian period and he was burned on a grid. Anyway that's one of the major monuments which we can associate with Galla Placidia. And there is another very big basilica which survives, although it has been completely rebuilt. That's the Church of St John the Evangelist, which was unfortunately almost completely destroyed by Allied bombing in 1944.

The people of Ravenna rebuilt it, brick by brick, stone by stone, and they found the original columns and capitals so they could reconstruct the early fifth century basilica, but it lost all its mosaic decoration. Before we delve a bit more into the story of Gallipoli because she is such a remarkable figure, this empress of the fifth century, I think it's right that we first take a step back and kind of explore more Christianity in the 5th century and the Western Roman Empire in Italy. Because it's not straightforward, is it, at this time? There's different strands of Christianity or what's the situation? Oh, yes. There are many strands of Christianity. In fact, I think we have to use Peter Brown's happy formula, many Christianities.

use Peter Brown's happy formula, many Christianities, little Christianities, assuming that they all represent the most authentic, orthodox and correct faith, against their neighbours who have another, slightly different definition. And it is the issue of the creed which becomes absolutely critical in this early 5th century period because there has been no change to the Nicene Creed that was promulgated at the first ecumenical council held at Nicaea in 325, but people are irritated, vexed, frustrated by not being able to relate the human and the divine persons of Christ. And this is a theological point which is very, very serious and seriously debated in the fifth century. And in the West, it is assumed that the definitions at Nicaea only need to be repeated and expanded only in a very little way to make it quite clear that Christ is of two natures that are united in the one person. And this is a definition which

is not accepted in the East where many of the small Christianities who function either using a Greek liturgy or a Syriac liturgy are very much divided and disturbed by this notion of unity in the one person. And they define and redefine and try to make even clearer their beliefs in a series of creedal declarations, mainly directed against the followers of Arius, who was a priest in Alexandria, who said, look, it stands to reason that God the Father must be in some way superior to Jesus, his son. If he is the son of God, how can he precede God the Father? So Arius felt there should be a necessary subordination of the son to the father. This was a natural thing. And in Roman society, patriarchal as it was, indeed

sons were very, very much subordinate to their fathers for a long time until they gained their majority. So he suggested Christ should be considered as an inferior element of the Godhead and therefore subordinate to God the Father. And this caused endless problems, mainly because at the time when the Goths, some of the tribes from north of the Danube, sent a delegation to Constantinople to inquire about the adoption of Christianity, the views of Arius were supported by the emperors and therefore the court, the church, the patriarch, all the bishops supported the views of Arius that Christ in some way was subordinate to God the Father. been introduced to the correct orthodox form of Christianity and they took it back to their tribes and they spread it

not just among the Goths who were numerous, Western and Eastern Goths, but the Burgundians and the Suevs and many other tribes. And these incoming Germanic Gothic groups who embraced Christianity with great enthusiasm and were given, through the genius of Ulfhila, their bishop, a Bible translated into Gothic, sermons and prayers written in Gothic so that they could worship in their own language. They believed that they had the true Christian faith and they spread it everywhere they went. And this will become very important as we get to the later in the 5th century, isn't it?

When we get to the end of Romulus Augustus and Odoacer and so on. No spoilers though, because we're going to go back to Galla Placidia first of all. I mean, with Galla Placidia, what form of Christianity is she triumphing with her architecture when she is ruling over Ravenna? She had been brought up in Constantinople, born in Constantinople, transferred to Milan, knew both Greek and Latin, and had followed these debates and discussions. But it was her father, Theodosius, who had imposed the anti-Aryan laws and had held a council in Constantinople in 381 at which he decreed that all true Christians must now believe the opposite of what they had believed under his Aryan predecessors. And he was very firm not only in promoting his notion of Nicene orthodoxy, but he was also very determined to remove Arians and any lingering pagans who were still around in the late 4th century. as a devout Catholic that believed that God had pre-created his Son and the Holy Ghost,

and that the three elements of the Godhead were of equal nature, of equal essence and character, and had been from the beginning. And this is, of course, a notion that was very difficult for many people because it suggested three elements of God in one. And are you worshipping three different gods? And no, the answer is these are all sharing the same nature. And partly because the words that were devised in Greek to encompass this unity of the Godhead with three elements were much more difficult to translate into Latin.

In the West there was a somewhat simplified and clearer perhaps or more dogmatic statement about the equality of Father, Son and Holy Ghost. And to that extent the West had in the Bishop of Rome a leader who knew that he represented the true, the correct Orthodoxy. And so when there was a dispute, yet another dispute over the issue of the Trinity, Pope Leo I wrote a letter to his colleague the Patriarch of Constantinople saying, we must reassert the creed that we learned at Nicaea, the three elements of the Godhead are in one and Christ and the Holy Spirit are equal to God the Father and we must restate this firmly and not allow any alteration. So the West represented a harder line and at the

Council of Chalcedon held in 451 this line was adopted and many on the eastern side with their own Christianities and their Greek and Syriac liturgies refused to accept it. So there was another big split that occurred. It's just after Galla Placidia's death in 450, but she did write a letter to her nephew, the emperor, Theodosius II, saying, you really must adopt this principle because Pope Leo is a very distinguished theologian and he knows what's what. You must agree with him. Hi there, I'm Don Wildman, host of the new podcast American History Hit. Twice a week, I'll be exploring stories from America's past to help us understand the United States of today. Join me as I head back in time to witness Thomas Jefferson write the Declaration of Independence,

head to the battlefields during the Civil War, visit Chief Poitin as he prepares for war with English colonists, tour Central Park before it was Central Park, and a city in Tennessee which helped build the atomic bomb. From famous battlefields to secret cities, from familiar names to lesser known events, I'll speak with leading experts from across the United States and beyond to bring American history to life. Join me every Monday and Thursday for American History Hit, a podcast by History Hit. So we've got this great religious difference in the West in that, you know, from the mid to late 5th century, Gallipolitan year is now dead. What happens to Ravenna in the wake of her death in

like those next 25 years? It's almost seen as the end of the Western Roman Empire. Yes, this is the period when we traditionally look at the decline and the end of the Western Roman Empire. Areas are constantly occupied by non-Roman forces. All of Spain is overrun. North Africa, of course, has already been conquered. But there is a tremendous shrinking of Roman control, basically, to the peninsula of Italy and a little strip of southern Gaul. There's very, very little a period of extreme tension and decline and military failure, which her son Valentinian III does nothing to correct. He wishes to go back to Rome and be a Roman emperor, and so he transfers the court back there. But five years later, he's killed. He makes the mistake of murdering a prominent figure and gets killed in exchange. So there is a headless

Roman Empire. And then a series of pretenders and people who assume power and those who wish to become Roman Emperor in Rome assert their authority very briefly. One Greek is sent from Constantinople to try and hold things together, but poor Avetis has very little success and he too meets a rival and they battled it out and he's defeated. So that there are rivals for the empty throne of the Western Roman Empire and eventually one of the many incoming leaders, the general Odoacer, says, I've had enough of this. We will send the latest of these emperor claims, a young man called Romulus Augustulus. We will send him off into a comfortable retirement and I will rule the rest of the Roman Empire, what there is of it. And his troops have occupied Ravenna and he does not wish to stay in Rome,

and this is partly, I suspect, because Ravenna is the more lively, profitable, commercially viable and interesting centre. Rome is very much a papal preserve, it's under the bishop, and it's impoverished. It witnesses a very serious decline. So Odoacer sets up his court in Ravenna and sends back the imperial insignia to Constantinople and rules as king. But he is definitely a barbarian. He has no Roman connection at all, although he understands exactly how to rule as a Roman, because he's got to administer what little is left, and actually, it must be said, he seems to do it quite well, but there are very, very few people to sing his praises. We don't have

speeches lauding the achievements of King Odoacer. Whereas when he's replaced by a Gothic ruler, Theoderic, we find there are not only speeches, but there is a great deal of recording of Theoderic's activity in the sources, which make it clear that he certainly wished his fame to be spread abroad, and he made sure that there was propaganda to encourage it. That's so interesting because obviously Odoacer is always associated with the fall of the Western Roman Empire as you say and he makes his capital at Ravenna but is there no monumental architectural legacy of Odoacer at Ravenna compared to let's say Gallop-Plessidia beforehand with that incredible mausoleum or other architecture? Is there anything? Does Odoaca really leave his

imprint at all on Ravenna? This is what is so very difficult to tell. There doesn't appear to be any monument which we can say or which is recorded as being erected by the King Odoaca. So, I mean, perhaps he did. Perhaps he rebuilt the palace. Perhaps he built a new palace. What his ambition was, well, to rule for a long time, and he did for 13 years, but he didn't make provision for his succession. And when challenged by the Gothic leader Theoderic, who said he'd come with the imperial backing of Emperor Zeno in Constantinople, he prepared to fight, but was defeated by another military general of the non-Roman variety. So it's hard to know, and as I say, he didn't arrange his own regal propaganda in a satisfactory way. Having somebody at court who would record all the good things he did.

He must have done some building. He must have kept the walls in good shape because the fortifications were excellent. And he must have been a quite efficient ruler. But he didn't ensure secretaries to record all his actions and say how wonderful he was. And this is very different, therefore, to his successor, Theoderic. So who was this Theoderic, the so-called great? Yes, Theoderic is a very interesting character. He had been sent as a young boy for his father's good behaviour after the signing of a peace treaty between the Roman Empire in Constantinople and the Goths north of the Danube, a particular part of the Gothic. I mean there were huge

numbers of Gothic tribes, not all of them observing the same, obedient to the same ruler, but all of them observing the Aryan definitions of Christianity to which they'd been introduced in the fourth century. So Theoderic, as a result of this peace treaty, was sent to Constantinople, where there were other young foreign sons and daughters of rulers with whom the empire had negotiated peace treaties. And they were there for their fathers' or parents' good behaviour. So should any of these alliances break down,

it would be the children who suffered. And there seemed to have been quite a group who were well treated, educated, in a sort of gilded cage. They were prisoners, but they were properly trained in imperial ways. And I think the obvious implication is that the emperors realized that if they could train these young people in admiration of Roman administration and imperial ways they might go back to their families eventually and do the same and be good allies and realize that the emperor was the most important figure and

they should do things whatever the emperor said. Theodoric, however, observed very closely and he then went back when he was sent back as a teenager, but possibly 18, 19, certainly a young man ready to take over the leadership of his tribe because his father had died, he was sent back and he immediately reversed the tables and started attacking the Roman forces on the frontiers. So he had great ambition, but he brought with him a real understanding of how a court runs, how an empire runs, how you organize the military, taxation, the mint, the courtiers and the propaganda and ceremonial, wearing the right clothes, having the right posture, being a real kingly figure. And he brought all that with him, as well as a knowledge of Greek and of how to run an empire. It was a very important lesson

that he brought to Ravenna. When he conquered Odawaka, he imposed his own rule, making a little mini Constantinople in the West. And is one of the ways he does that, to make that mini Constantinople in the West, is it by introducing even more great architecture such as churches? Yes, great architecture such as churches, and particularly churches for the Arian Christians. Ah, interesting. There are already churches for those who call themselves Western Catholic Christians. Those churches built by Gallo Placidia are there.

They're all functioning. There is a bishop who has built himself a new cathedral. These are the Catholics. Theoderic does not try to remove the Catholics or do anything against them. He just builds bigger churches for his Arian Christians. And the one that is called his Palace Chapel is enormous. It's a rival to the biggest churches that survive from the period. And it's a rival because he wishes to show that the Arian Christians have the same culture, they understand about the importance of art, they can produce wonderful buildings and their liturgy will be celebrated in the same way but with their own beliefs. So they

have their own bishop and their own clergy. And the Goths who are always a minority within the larger population, nonetheless have their own centres. And the very striking thing about Theoderich is that he just builds an alternate Christianity for his own followers, leaving the Catholics and the Catholic bishop to do their own forms of Christianity. And the contrast here is with the rivalry between Aryan and Catholic that existed in North Africa, where there were terrible persecutions by the Vandals, Aryans, against the Catholics, and in Constantinople where the rivalry led

to rival processions of Catholic and Aryan Christians meeting and fighting in the streets. And the Arians were always obliged to celebrate in churches outside the city walls. And because Constantinople was a huge metropolis, that meant that every time they went to Sunday services, they had to walk out of the city and celebrate privately in their own churches. And this meant that there was a heightened sense of rivalry. And in the late 4th century in Milan, there were also very, very extreme rivals between Arian and Catholic. And I think Theoderic had appreciated from his experience in Constantinople that the sensible way to promote his own form of Christianity and support it was to have a separate Aryan hierarchy with its own churches

and make them as beautiful and as big and as wonderful as anything that the Catholics had put up. And that's a form of rivalry which is just cultural. And it meant that the Catholic bishops went on building new churches, commemorating all their own churches and their own dead in their own way, in their own Latin liturgies, while the Goths celebrated their Arian Christianity with the Gothic liturgy. these quite exquisite Bibles made for, not for use, but for demonstration. The parchment has been dyed purple, the letters are written on in silver and gold, and they are in Gothic, very magnificent, very beautiful. And they show that the Gothic king or patrons patronized the production of these deluxe volumes. And course many many other volumes in gothic for daily use because there were prayers and services and sermons and everything that would be needed and the Aryan clergy were well trained and they understood what they were to do and they looked after the needs of the Aryan Christians but there's very little record of fighting and when it is

fighting it's usually between the military arms, the Aryans who are attached to the Gothic court and the military attached to the city of Ravenna who still recruit mainly among Italians or the local population and don't get along with the other forces. I'm presuming therefore though at this time that Theodoric has no room for non-Christian religions. So Arian, okay for his Goths, Catholic for the rest of the population of Ravenna. But are those almost therefore the two choices that they have? That seems to be the case.

There are records of very distinguished senators during the reign of Theodoric. Boethius is the main wonderful writer, philosopher known, who translated a great deal of ancient Greek wisdom into Latin. And Boethius may have been a token Christian, but his commitment to ancient philosophy and the world of the ancient Greeks and the achievements of the ancient Greeks meant that he was extremely well aware of the ancient gods and the ceremonies which had sustained those pagan circles in Rome, mainly senatorial, elite families for many, many, many centuries. So there was still, certainly in Rome, there was still a very strong,

not very strong, but there was an element that was very committed to the maintenance of that culture and with it probably a disdain for Christianity as one of those cult things that pleases the masses, not something that the senators wanted to be involved in. No. Well, therefore, one last thing on Theoderic before we move on, because I know we've got that Maximian, Theodorian, Justinian mosaic that we're going to get to soon. But with Theoderic, you mentioned this, you know, the creation of the Arian churches,

and they all got the Catholic churches there. Does Theoderic, him wanting to make almost bigger architectural symbols for the Arian religion, how does he do this with his own mausoleum? Because I'm thinking of Gallipoli and you mentioned how her so-called mausoleum is one of the finest examples of early Christian art that we have. Does Theoderic see that mausoleum and think, right, I'm going to make my mausoleum in the Arian tradition even grander, even better? Yes, that's absolutely correct. It's the one building in the city of Ravenna that is built entirely of marble. All the churches are in brick. Nearly all the structures are in brick.

They may be faced, plastered, but basically brick is the building material of Ravenna even to this day. But basically brick is the building material of Ravenna even till this day. And Theodoric imports large quantities of marble and builds himself a most magnificent mausoleum. And there is a large purple sarcophagus like a bath in the upper story of this structure, which may indeed have been the tomb where he was laid, but it was much, much used, partly because it was so solid and had such a heavy, huge monolith on top. It couldn't be demolished, and it was reused first as a nunnery,

and then by Christians, and then by other people, and now it has been restored as its mausoleum and is a very spectacular monument, just outside the city walls, where indeed there may have been cemeteries for the Arian Christians, and of course a lot more churches, which do not survive. But it is a very striking evidence of his ambition to rival all the emperors that had ruled in Ravenna, and to be seen as, in effect, the greatest emperor. And although he was not allowed the title,

and he never assumed the title emperor, he was always just king, rex, there's no doubt that he wore the purple cloak. He had a crown. He expected people to bow before him. He had a court in which he maintained he was enthroned as a king in a very regal style. And undoubtedly, he was an emperor in all names. So can we imagine walking through Theoderic's Ravenna? What can we imagine? Would it be like the Babylon or Alexandria or Rome of many centuries previously? It was like cosmopolitan centres with lots of these different languages being spoken. What do we think we'd see if you were walking through Theoderic's Ravenna? if you were walking through Theoderic's Ravenna? I'm sure that the major monuments would have been the palaces and the villas where the elite lived and the secular buildings for the government, the garrison buildings,

the monumental structures that support a large imperial administration. Because Theoderic did rule over a vast area, not just of Italy and parts of over the Adriatic in Dalmatia, Sicily, into southern Gaul and by inheritance Spain. So he had a very, very large area to govern and there must have been enormous administrative buildings that were all designed to look very imposing. And those would have been the buildings that we would have seen after the triumphal arches and probably arches at the crossroads, major monuments no longer there. And the churches would have been scattered near one, this very, very large church of Santa Polinare Nuovo, which was his palace chapel, must have been near his palace.

Nothing of the palace survives. When it was excavated in the early 20th century, as they lifted the paving stones, the water bubbled up. The marshy area and the fact that it's saturated with water meant that most of these buildings collapsed and were ruined. But there must have been a huge palace there and then there must have been other administrative buildings. The mint has been excavated on the main road, one of the main arteries of the city, and there must have been an enormous structure beside it. And we learned that there were places called arcades where people worked, where craftsmen worked. So you would have seen workshops

where people were sculpting and making mosaics and preparing building materials. And then lots and lots of foreign merchants selling their wares. These are recorded as witnesses to the papyri, soap makers from Antioch, silk makers, silk merchants from the East Mediterranean, doctors from Alexandria who were called the Greek doctors rather than the Western doctors, and of course considered themselves superior. And they probably were, because Alexandria was the great centre of medical knowledge. So it was a very cosmopolitan city, and it would have been full of people speaking many languages, and all trading with the court as the main centre of patronage, where the money was. Now we are now treading into early medieval territory, so I think we're going

to have to wrap up very soon, but I did promise we would get to Justinian and Theodora, and that beautiful mosaic that is from Ravenna. How do we get from Theoderic to the likes of Justinian and Theodora and that beautiful mosaic that is from Ravenna. How do we get from Theoderic to the likes of Justinian and Theodora and that arguably one of the most fascinating well-known mosaics in the whole of history? Theoderic died after a very long reign in 526 leaving a daughter. He had no sons so he'd married his daughter to a suitable man who was to be her consort, and she tried very manfully to be a good queen. And she too had a sense of propaganda, and she has people who write about how splendid she is. And she did have correspondence with Justinian, who was then emperor in Constantinople. And she recognized that the

links between Ravenna and Constantinople were very, very important, not only for her status but for trade, for diplomatic connections, all sorts of other reasons why it was very important to keep those lines of communication open. And when Justinian heard that she had elevated her cousin to be her consort somewhat unhappily and that she had disappeared. And rumour had it that this consort had murdered her. He used it as a pretext to say we must avenge her death, we must recover Ravenna, and of course we will bring it back under Constantinopolitan control. Belisarius had had a very successful rapid campaign in North Africa and defeated the

Vandals. He was then sent on to Sicily and up Italy, and after a much longer campaign, he arrived at the gates of Ravenna. And this Gothic ruler, then by the name Vitigis, prepared to remain in the city, and Belisarius thought he would have to starve them out. But negotiations continued and in the end Wittigis gave in and Belisarius entered the city with his imperial troops from Constantinople. And this, following on the recapture of Rome and Sicily and all of the rest of southern Italy, meant that he had indeed expanded Justinian's empire in the west. And the main thing he'd been told to bring back was not just King Vitigis, but the Gothic treasury. And it was assumed, probably correctly, that there was a great

supply of gold and treasure and silver, objects as well as actual bars, that should be taken off to Constantinople. Booty. So the loot from the campaign which led to Ravenna was to take back all this wealth, and indeed Belisarius did so with the king, his wife, and the courtiers. And, of course, that meant that the Arian Christians lost their patron and the Catholic bishops rejoiced, welcomed Belisarius, so happy to see the imperial troops coming from Constant Ravenna, the Catholic bishop became the most important religious figure. The Arian bishops found themselves impoverished, marginalised,

and of course not respected by those from Constantinople. And the officials set up to rule in the name of the emperor came from the east, and they had very cut-and-dried understanding of how to administer a territory. And although Italy had been desperately wrecked by much warfare, many, many years of rivalry between the Goths and the imperial forces, the administrators set about resuming taxation, which was to be sent to Constantinople, and this meant that they were very unpopular. However, Justinian was back in control, and I think it's because the Catholic bishop at the time, by the name Victor, was so excited by this extraordinary turn of events that he decided that in the Church of San Vitale, where he's

been responsible for a lot of building, it took a long time to build that church, it's very, very magnificent, it is an octagon with a very high dome, and he'd built an ambulatory that goes all around the ground floor with very magnificent capitals imported from Constantinople. And he determined that he would make a gesture of gratitude by putting up these imperial panels. And that is why right in the area of the apse, either side of the altar, on the main walls of the nave of this apse area, you see Justinian on the one side holding a pattern, a golden pattern, which he is donating to the church and opposite him his wife Theodora who holds the chalice and she is processing both of them going towards the altar. And next to the emperor is a bishop identified by an inscription, Maximianus,

which makes it quite clear that he wishes to be considered the person responsible. And I suspect that poor Victor, who originally put up his own portrait, has been taken away and replaced. But that's why Justinian he has next to him, there's one rather strange figure with very wild hair, and then the bishop Maximian and two clergy who precede him in there. They are processing towards the altar to the east end where Justinian will present his gifts. And on the other side, Theodora with her seven ladies in waiting. And this is the most extraordinary thing of all.

Really, women shouldn't be in church in the area near the altar. That's reserved to the clergy. And here she is with all her imperial robes, I mean the purple robe, the enormous crown, the huge rings of pearls, and her ladies-in-waiting are wearing the most spectacular silk dresses, court dresses, what you wear when you go to meet the emperor and the empress, and you attend the empress when she goes to church and there they are in attendance. It's most extraordinary and the even more extraordinary thing is that although we know there were many many mosaics of Justinian and Theodora

in Constantinople and statues and frescoes and many, many commemorations, none have survived. Which is why these are the contemporary portraits, much restored, I'm afraid to say, but nonetheless, they were put up originally in the 6th century when Justinian and Theodora were alive. And, lo and behold, there they are in their full imperial regalia, crowns and all, although they never went to Ravenna. It is such a fascinating part of Ravenna's story, and it almost epitomizes Ravenna's golden age at that time. We've done pretty well in this podcast episode. We've gone from 400 all the way up to 650 AD, which I think is a very big achievement. Judith, this has been fascinating. And last but not least, you've written a book about Ravenna, about all that we talked about, and so much more, which is called?

Ravenna, Capital of Empire, Crucible of Europe. Well, there we go. And Judith, it just goes to me to say, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today. My pleasure. Thank you. Well, there you go. There was Professor Judith Herron talking all things Ravenna. I hope you enjoyed the episode as much as I did recording it. It was a pleasure to interview Judith in person for this episode today. Now, last things from me, you know what I'm going to say, but if you have been enjoying the Ancients podcast and you want to help us out, you want to help us on our mission to share these extraordinary stories from our distant past with you and with

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