The Ancients - Rosetta Stone

Episode Date: October 13, 2022

In July 1799 a group of French soldiers stumbled upon a stone that was set to change our understanding of the ancient world.The iconic Rosetta Stone, a stela or inscribed slab, was dug up in the foundations of a fort in the town of Rasheed - a port city east of Alexandria. The Stone was central in kickstarting antiquarians such as Jean-Francois Champollion and Thomas Young down the path of unlocking ancient Egypt’s enigmatic language within just c.20 years of the Stone's rediscovery. Today, it ranks amongst the most famous artefacts in the world. So what exactly is it? And what does it say?To explain the Rosetta Stone and so much more, Tristan interviews Dr Ilona Regulski, curator of the British Museum’s new exhibition 'Hieroglyphs Unlocking Ancient Egypt'. Looking at the hieroglyph script and how it was deciphered, alongside key figures in the race to decipherment, such as Jean-Francois Champollion, Thomas Young, William Bankes, it's an event not to be missed.If you want to find out more about the exhibition click here: https://www.britishmuseum.org/exhibitions/hieroglyphs-unlocking-ancient-egypt?gclid=Cj0[…]L_5Yn8vOaYEdKDmCGW6_SQo9UMZqsHuriJctr1WMm5z8kaAl-dEALw_wcBFor more Ancients content, subscribe to our Ancients newsletter here. For your chance to win five non-fiction history books - including a signed copy of Dan Snow's On This Day in History - please fill out this short survey: https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/survey-taken/?sm=IthGeoCcJUiKNx0R8Pv7Ogn50xYWgriQdyDMjMZwy8jmNE1jQh63NtWjK1DQdAssMjnsuFzX5eJOGw0w3NS4sgHthi59y72wWjesdfmNxyU_3DIf you'd like to learn even more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - enter promo code ANCIENTS for a free trial, plus 50% off your first three months' subscription.To download, go to Android > or Apple store >

Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. And in today's podcast, well, it's very, very exciting indeed, because this is ancient history news hot off the press.

Because a few days ago, I headed over to the British Museum to interview curator Dr. Ilona Regulski, because Ilona and her team have created the newest, extraordinary, exciting exhibition at the British Museum right now, all about the deciphering of hieroglyphs. 2022 marks 200 years since Jean-Francois Champollion famously shouted, je tiens le fer, I've got it. 200 years since Champollion deciphered hieroglyphs, since he cracked the hieroglyph code. Now in today's podcast episode, I chat with Ilona about the most famous artefact associated with this significant linguistic breakthrough. I am, of course, talking about the Rosetta Stone, one of the most famous objects in the entire world, and an object which is the keystone, the centrepiece of this great new exhibition.

In this podcast, we're going to be talking about what the Rosetta Stone is, its significance in the race to decipher hieroglyphs, but we're also going to be going a bit further away from the Rosetta Stone, looking at other artefacts that were also important in this great race to decipher hieroglyphs, also the actions, the importance of other figures as well as Champollion, Thomas Young, William Banks and so on and so forth. This was a wonderful chat with Ilona. We also recently chatted with Ilona next to the Rosetta Stone as part of a history hit documentary, a TV documentary all about the new exhibition. Stay tuned, that will be coming to History Hit soon.

But for now, to talk all about the Rosetta Stone, here's Ilona. To talk all about the Rosetta Stone, here's Ilona. Ilona, it's wonderful to have you on the podcast today. Thank you. And it's really lovely to be here at the British Museum to chat to you on the eve of this incredible new exhibition coming out on hieroglyphs. And it seems to be at the heart of this new exhibition, the Rosetta Stone, this feels like one of the most famous objects in the entire world. Yeah, it's definitely one of the most popular objects in the British Museum. And yeah, we're very excited to be able to redisplay it in the exhibition and to tell stories about it that perhaps visitors are not so familiar with. So it gives us an opportunity really to

contextualise the stone, text on the stone, its journey to the British Museum. And so it's really an opportunity to elaborate on all those stories. And we're going to delve into all of that. Is it also important to highlight straight away, we were chatting just before we started recording of these other objects, that the Rosetta Stone might be the most well-known object in this new exhibition but there are so many other objects too aren't there? Yes and especially for those scholars who were working on hieroglyphs and trying to decipher hieroglyphs they also used a lot of other objects in addition to the Rosetta Stone and we're displaying a few of those. The interesting part of that is also that these were objects that were circulating in Europe, but also a lot of drawings, a lot of descriptions, because we also want to show that the available material was still limited.

So we didn't really have big collections like the British Museum or the Louvre or the Museum in Turin. All these big collections didn't exist as they exist today. So the evidence or the material that they had available was much less and was limited, in fact. And so before we go into that whole story, the journey and the deciphering story of the Rosetta Stone, I think background first of all. Most of us, if not everyone's, heard the name Rosetta Stone, but what exactly is the Rosetta Stone? Yeah, it's a stela, in fact, so a commemorative stone, if you want, that contains a text, a decree. It's a priestly decree that was issued on the 27th of March, 196 BC.

You can know the exact date? Conveniently for us. And so that decree was issued probably on a piece of papyrus and then sent around the country. on a piece of papyrus and then sent around the country. And as the text tells us, it had to be inscribed on hard stone. And in the three languages, the text actually tells us this and then set up in all the important temples of Egypt. So if that happens, we can't be sure that every temple had a copy of the Rosetta Stone, but we do have 28 copies in total.

So that decree was copied many times and one of them came to Europe and led to the decipherment. Well, let's delve into all of that now quickly. So you mentioned the date, so the early 2nd century BC. So what's the context of ancient Egypt at this time? What is this period? Yeah, so Egypt at the time was ruled by the Ptolemies, the Ptolemaic dynasty, as we say. They're basically successors of Alexander the Great, who conquered Egypt in 332 BC. And after some family members established the dynasty of the Ptolemies, and so the Rosetta Stone dates to the reign of Ptolemy V. But we have an earlier version of the dynasty of the Ptolemies. And so the Rosetta Stone dates to the reign of Ptolemy V, but we have an earlier version of the text from the reign of Ptolemy III.

Yeah, and at the time, Egypt was very multicultural, was really a melting pot of cultures, and it was a trading hub in Northeast Africa. And the main language that was used in the administration more and more was Greek during the Ptolemaic times, even though people were still speaking Egyptian at home. So it was very bilingual as a society. This is important because that's why, of course, the text was translated in these other languages. So it was very international in a way.

And so from what you're highlighting there, so Greek, the language of the administration, Egyptian elsewhere, but was the Egyptian hieroglyphic language, was it important in religious circles? You mentioned temples earlier. So does that Egyptian language still retain its importance in the religious sphere at that time then? In the temples, definitely, but also in people's homes. It takes some time for a language to be replaced by another language. Even we have the same process later with when Egypt becomes part of the daily life in spoken language, but also in written culture. So at the time we had Demotic, and Demotic was very much living next to Greek, and people were very fluent in moving between those two languages. And forgive my ignorance, what is Demotic? Sorry, yeah, that's the Egyptian language.

So the Egyptian language and the script actually we refer to is Demotic? Sorry, yeah, that's the Egyptian language. So the Egyptian language and the script actually we refer to as Demotic. It's a cursive, handwritten version of hieroglyphs, which is a later development of hieratic. So from the very beginning, you had hieroglyphs and a handwritten script, very much like our typewriting font and a handwritten letter. So you had those two scripts living next to each other, were used for very specific purposes and that develops into a very cursive writing that is called Demotic by the Greeks when they come into Egypt. And you may recognise the word demos in Demotic, so it's the language and the script of the people.

Absolutely right. I'd like to focus a bit on the material of the Rosetta stone itself, the stone. What do we know about its material? Because it's quite striking when you see it today. Do we think it originates from somewhere like Rosetta? Or what's the backstory, do we think, to this particular stone? Yes, so it's made of granodiorite, which is a very hard stone. And we don't exactly know where it comes from. It was probably quarried somewhere in the north of Egypt and then set up in one of the temples in the delta, probably. We don't exactly know where it comes from. It was probably quarried somewhere in the north of Egypt and then set up in one of the temples in the delta, probably. We don't know the exact find spot.

Places like Sias in the delta have been mentioned in the past. There have also been suggestions that maybe it comes from Heliopolis, which was a very important place to worship the sun god in ancient Egypt. We really don't know. We don't even know when it was transported to a sheet or Rosetta as it was called by the French and Italians. Probably during the Mamluk era because it was very common especially in the Mamluk era that to reuse stones ancient Egyptian spolia as we call it in new buildings. So actually, the very early history of the Rosetta Stone is not very well known, even though we have all this information historically on the stone,

because of the text, we don't actually know where it was set up. And well, let's then focus on that text a bit more. You've kind of highlighted it this already, but I want to go back to it just quickly. So an official document, three different languages, but what exactly is it talking about? Yeah, so it's a priestly decree in which basically the king is given divine honours. It has a long list of these honours. For example, his statue has to be put up in the temple next to the statue of the god. The statue has to be carried around in processions next to the statue of the god. The priests have to honour the statue of the king and so on.

So it's really putting the king on the level of the gods, actually. Why does he deserve all these honors? Because he did a lot of good deeds for the country, obviously. He protected the country from invaders and rebels. He restored temples. He founded new ones. He lowered taxes, very popular. He guaranteed allowances for the animal cult and so on.

And because of all this, he should really be treated like a god. The important thing about the content of this text is that this is not very Egyptian. So this is a kind of way of honoring a leader that was very popular or common from the 5th century onwards in the Hellenistic world in Greece, but wouldn't have been common in earlier pharaonic times when the pharaoh was really an intermediary between the divine and the human world. So he would not have to be considered a god by his subjects. He would already be very close to the gods. So we can be pretty sure that the text or the type of text was also

imported to Egypt from Greece. Right, that's so interesting because once again the context of the Hellenistic world, this time that I found absolutely fascinating, the emergence of these divine ruler cults. But it's so interesting, you said we have a place like ancient Egypt where the pharaoh was always seen as a god in their own right and the Ptolemies having to almost impose their own version of it on the people, on the priests and a great example to see that. We think of the Rosetta Stone with the deciphering of hieroglyphs which we'll get to but it's also fascinating in I'm presuming in that development of divine ruler cult in Ptolemaic Egypt too. Yes it's a question why they felt they had to do that. It was probably just a practice

that they were familiar with in their region and they just brought it to Egypt. And this is a very good example of this assimilation between different cultures that is always happening when a foreign power comes into a new country. And the Ptolemy kings were very keen to be depicted as pharaohs and to continue that tradition of that powerful ruler. They just gave it a little bit of a local feel. A bit of a local feel. And Rosetta, let's focus on Rosetta. I know that you went to modern Rashid, Rosetta, not too long ago. Whereabouts are we talking with Rosetta in Egypt today?

So as a place, it's located on the north coast of Egypt, a bit east of Alexandria. It didn't exist in Pharaonic times. It was founded actually much later during the Greco-Roman period. Even its foundation is not very clear. Its exact moment of foundation, I mean. It was called Rosette by the French when they were there.

And so when the stone was found they called it the pierre de rosette so it became rosetta stone in english it's present day rachid it's very vibrant city with a diverse heritage and we also like to show that in the exhibition it's not just the place where the rosetta stone comes from it's also a city in its own right where people are living, communicating and have ideas about their heritage and have ideas about what they would like the world to know about their city. So much more to the story as you revealed in your exhibition, where you mentioned the French there. So let's therefore go on in time to the early 19th century

or is it the late 18th century? Talk to me about the discovery or the rediscovery of the Rosetta Stone. Yes, so Napoleon invaded Egypt in 1798. The story is very well known, of course. And during the works of the fortifications along the north coast of Egypt at Rashid, they discovered the Rosetta Stone in the foundations of the building. So it was reused as a building block because it's a strong, compact stone. So it was probably useful. And it was immediately realized that the stone could be important for the decipherment. In fact, it was immediately in the newspapers in Egypt that potentially they had discovered the key to decipherment, which is quite amazing if you think about the kind of context, we're in a political context that there's soldiers restoring the fort

and they immediately realized how important this could potentially be for our understanding of human history, which is quite an amazing idea that so soon it was an important object. And because of the three scripts and Greek that was known at the time, so they immediately realized that perhaps the Greek text could help us to understand the two Egyptian languages. Because Demotic, that hadn't also been translated at that time. It's not just the hieroglyphs, is it?

And I mean, focusing a bit more on that. So it seems as if before this stone is discovered, is there already attempts by people across the known world to try and decipher this hieroglyphic, this Egyptian ancient script? Yes, there have been attempts, of course, since Greco-Roman times, very soon after hieroglyphs fell out of use. It's a script that is very pictorial. It's beautiful. It's intriguing. So of course, you will immediately have scholars and anyone, in fact, who looks at this to have ideas about it, to try to understand what these picture-like signs may say. in the medieval period in Egypt itself, where objects were sitting on the banks of the Nile and just common people passing by every day had ideas about these objects and attributed mainly magical powers to it, because they thought that these hieroglyphs contained some secret knowledge about the nature of everything. And legends started to develop around certain objects. And then, of course,

in the Arab medieval period, you have a lot of scholars also who travel to Egypt and who are amazed by the temples and the tombs they visit. And they also start writing about hieroglyphs. Was that a key part of the exhibition you were keen to highlight? Because so often we think of Champollion, Young, maybe William Banks as well, but the story of the actual attempt to decipher hieroglyphs, it actually starts much, much earlier than the actual finding of the Rosetta Stone. Yes, and that was important to show also

because scholars like Thomas Young and Jean-Francois Champollion, they build on the work of previous scholars and of previous statements that have been made and steps in the right direction. These scholars didn't have the Rosetta Stone, they didn't have bilingual texts, so it's really important to have one language or script that is known to give you access to the unknown language. But yeah, these publications and these works were very important. We also have to realize that it's again a matter of distribution. We didn't have the internet at the time, so it was also a matter of how later scholars could have access to these earlier publications. They were

mostly written in Arabic, of course. So somebody like Champollion is fluent in Arabic, so thereby has access to these sources of medieval Arab travellers. But so it required later scholars in Europe during the Renaissance and later to learn Arabic in order to have access to all these other earlier scholars. And I guess it's also important to highlight, as we'll get into, the importance of cooperation at that time, isn't it? The sending back and forwards of descriptions, of relief reliefs of drawings and so on and so forth so that library keeps growing and growing and growing which by the time of the early 19th century i'm guessing even

with the napoleonic war raging that library is starting to grow the amount of information is starting to grow alongside the rosetta stone yes so I mean moving from the Arab medieval period it takes some time for these manuscripts to arrive in Europe that really only happens in the 15th 16th century when slowly European scholars start to have access to this and this increases as more travelers go to Egypt in the 17th century 18th century and it's really a matter of distributing drawings, descriptions, notes, and scholars being in contact with each other. And a slight tangent on the hieroglyphs, hieroglyphic system itself. So you mentioned all of these symbols, all of these images. Would you mind just kind of explaining how the hieroglyph system, how it works?

Yes. So the trick is, was and still is, to understand that it's not an alphabetic script. So this was for the scholars of the early 18th and 19th century, even though they had to Rosetta Stone, they were mostly familiar with Arabic scripts. Even scholars that were experts in Oriental languages, those Oriental languages were usually alphabetic. So the idea that you have a writing system that is partly alphabetic, it has a few alphabetic. So the idea that you have a writing system that is partly alphabetic, it has a few alphabetic signs, but it has all these other signs and it has signs that you should read and you should not read. This was really difficult to discover. So basically, we prefer to speak about one letter signs rather than alphabetic signs because you also have three

letter signs and two and three letter signs. You have signs that are entire words and you have signs that you should not read, but they indicate the meaning of something. We call them classifiers or determinatives. So for example, the words for book or the verb to write or the person who writes, they all have the same root. And there is the classifier that will tell you whether you should read it as book or scribe or writing. So it's a hybrid system. It's a mix of many different kinds of signs. At the peak of classical literature, we have about 650 signs. It's a massive alphabet. Well, not alphabet, it feels like the word that should not be spoken. It's a massive alphabet. Well, not alphabet, it feels like the word that should

not be spoken. It's a massive amount of different symbols in this ancient language, which the ancient Egyptians knew. Yes. And so if we continue from there, in regards to another word that I think we'll be talking about quite a bit as we go to the deciphering story, cartouche. What is this and how does this also fit into the Hodge? Yes, so the cartouche is basically an oval. It's an elongated shan ring. So it's a ring that is an eternal ring. It's shan also, the word means it's a circular movement that continues. It's the idea of the continuation of something. It's usually around, it's a circle that is elongated in order to put the name of the king in there. So this is not just to contain the name of the king,

but there's a huge symbolism behind this. So the king's name is eternal, is forever, and so on. And this was a key thing for scholars to discover, that this oval contained the name of the king. And within that, especially in the Ptolemaic period, because they're Greek, basically Greek Macedonian kings, they have foreign names. Foreign names were always spelled phonetically.

So in a way, alphabetically. So that means that one sign is one sound. So in those cartouches, you have this alphabetic spelling. In the Ptolemaic period, which led to the first breakthrough of being able to read phonetically the name of the king. And then Champignon's discovery is that this actually also happened before and during the Pharaonic period, where you can have, again, this mix of signs in a cartouche. All right, well, let's delve into this deciphering story and how the Rosetta Stone

fits into that whole narrative then, now, Ilona. So we've got to the French rediscovering the Rosetta Stone when they are in Egypt in the late 18th, early 19th centuries. So how does the Rosetta Stone therefore end up in London at the British Museum? Well, this is a bit the result of political history. This is a bit the result of political history. So at a certain point, the French army has to surrender to the combined forces, which is basically the British and the Egyptian army. Egypt, of course, at the time under Ottoman rule, had been for some time. And the terms of surrender included stipulations about the objects

that the French had collected during their time in Egypt. And it was decided that 22 objects would be given to the British by the French. And this was drawn up in Article 16 in the capitulation document, so the capitulation of Alexandria in 1801. And this is a document that we also show in the exhibition. It's kept in the National Archives and it was signed by the representatives of the three governments of the French, the British and the Egyptian government. This is how the Rosetta Stone was part of these 22 objects and they were then transported to the UK, yeah, to England. First they arrived in Portsmouth in the UK, yeah, to England. First they arrived in Portsmouth in 1802. Then they went to the Society of Antiquaries for a very short moment, for a few months only, before they came to the

British Museum. And the British Museum was a small place at the time. It was only basically consisted of the Montague House, which was too small to host all these objects. And so the arrival of these objects also encouraged the museum to expand and to build extra galleries and to then replace the Montague House with the building that you see nowadays. Hi there, I'm Don Wildman, the host of the brand new podcast, American History Hit.

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slavery to civil rights, the gold rush to the space race, I'll be speaking to leading experts to delve into America's past. New episodes dropping every Monday and Thursday. So join me on American History Hit, a podcast by History Hit. It's interesting because we always think of the Rosetta Stone as that object that comes to the British Museum, but as you mentioned there, that's just one of 22 objects. There are other objects which also come to the British Museum.

What objects were they? I'm not going to test you on every single one. There are only a couple. No worries. Well, they were also objects that were discovered. Basically, as I mentioned, they were collected by the French. A lot of them were heavy objects, very heavy objects, because they were also meant to keep the boat still at sea.

So we have two, for example, we have two huge sarcophagi, stone sarcophagi, and one of them is in the exhibition. Both of them are really interesting in terms of the history of early engagement with hieroglyphs because the one that is in the exhibition was considered to be the enchanted basement or enchanted basin. So the enchanted basin, because if you touch the water within it, you could be cured of love sickness. This was a legend that developed around this particular sarcophagus. The other one that is not in the exhibition was long believed to be the tomb of Alexander. Yes, I love this story. Come on, let's talk about this. Come on. Yes. So I decided to use the other one in the exhibition

because I thought the stories that developed around the other one as less less well known the fact that the other one was considered the tomb of Alexander is better known so I'd focus on the other one let's not ruin the surprise of what it actually is once hieroglyphs are deciphered we'll get to that won't we in a bit but it's such an amazing story and it's that alongside the Rosetta Stone and it's so fascinating you've got so many of these other objects as well which I'm guessing at this time when they do come to the British Museum and there's still a lot of mystery around what these hieroglyphs mean is there a lot of excitement in Britain when they come to the British Museum and they see all these objects there? Yes it's

spectacular to suddenly have so many large objects arriving at the museum and in England. As everywhere in Europe and in the rest of the world, there weren't that many big objects. So very few people actually had the opportunity to see monumental hieroglyphs and objects of that size in collections in Europe in general. So it was a very exciting moment, absolutely. Of course, it takes some time for the museum to reorganise, to build and to expand before it becomes one of the first public institutions. Right. So how long is it before people, academics, scholars start looking into the Rosetta Stone

and seeing how it can help with deciphering the ancient Egyptian language? That already starts very soon after discovering the stone. And while the stone was still in Egypt, the French and then also immediately afterwards the British make many copies of the text. So the French make a few casts, even when the Rosetta Stone is then handed over to the British, they still allow the French to make more copies. So there was a lot of, on the scholarly level, there was a lot of collaboration. Then more copies were made of the Rosetta Stone. We actually have correspondence between scholars who were still back here in England

and were writing to friends and colleagues in Egypt and said, can you make another copy of the stone before you put it on the boat, just in case something happens that we have a copy of the stone. They were all very, very keen to have the text available in some kind of copy, whether it was a cast or a print, because they used the Rosetta Stone as a printing block. So they would put ink on the block and then roll it as a print because the script is so small, it's really difficult to copy in a traditional way, especially if you don't know what you're copying. So it's really difficult to copy in a traditional way especially if you don't know what you're copying so it's better to use it as a printing block and these copies were distributed all over Europe and within two or three years after the discovery every country had a copy of the Rosetta Stone. Who are some of the key figures from this period then who have got copies of the

Rosetta Stone and then start getting to work, seeing how that can help in the deciphering of hieroglyphs. Yeah, so a very important group of scholars are the French scholars who had joined Napoleon's army. So as we know, Napoleon took a large group of scholars with him, who in addition to his political adventure, were supposed to document the country, ancient Egypt, the monuments, were supposed to document the country, ancient Egypt, the monuments, modern Egypt, the customs, the nature and so on. And they went back home with their copies and also with copies of the Rosetta Stone. And they were quite instrumental in distributing these copies in France. Again, we have a lot of correspondence between some of those scholars and Champollion who tries to get a copy of the Rosetta Stone and he complains

that his copy is not good enough and he wants a new copy and then at a certain point he writes to the Royal Society here in England asking for a new cast of the stone and so on and so forth so there was a lot of talk about getting good copies of the Rosetta Stone. Right and one of these other figures who let's talk about now Thomas Young, Sir Thomas Young, who is this figure on the other side of the channel? Yes, so he's a very different kind of person, very different from Champollion in character and approach. He is what we call a polymath, was a physician, a mathematician, a scientist. He had contributed immensely to the theory of light

and then in his leisurely hours did a bit of Egyptology. Later in his life, he was older than Champollion when he started working on the Rosetta Stone, which also makes a difference, I guess. And for him, it was kind of like an experiment, a scientific experiment to decipher hieroglyphs, more like a mathematical game almost. Whereas Champollion really saw the decipherment as a way to enter ancient Egypt and to understand the culture. Whereas for Champollion, it was a venture in itself, an intellectual challenge. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton

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which worry Champollion back in France. And he's like, oh, I have to hurry and I have to work harder because there is this English scholar. This is really the first time when they get in proper contact with each other or hear from each other. And for Thomas Young, he works a lot on the demotic, so the middle part of the Rosetta Stone. And he tries to read the royal names. of the Rosetta Stone and he tries to read the royal names again it goes back to the royal names in the cartouches the names of Ptolemy in the first place he reads the name of Ptolemy correctly but his analysis of the individual signs are slightly wrong because he reads them as syllables but it's a very good step in the right direction. And so what Thomas Young does is

basically he looks at the Greek text. Thomas Young was also very well trained in Greek and Latin, so very classically trained. And he looks at the position of words in the Greek text that occur many times, like the title Basileos, the word for temple. And he tries to find in more or less the same place in the demotic text the same cluster of signs and he manages to identify many words like this even though he can't perhaps read the individual signs he is able to give a first translation of some of the sentences in the Rosetta Stone and that's what he publishes first anonymously this is the problem in the Rosetta Stone. And that's what he publishes. First, anonymously, this is the problem in the later debate of who was the first. And that is something that, again, encourages other scholars to continue working and to refine. I mean, that's interesting, because sometimes you associate

Jung with that Ptolemy, Cartouche and the hieroglyphs. But from what you're saying there, Eleanor, he also spends a lot of time and makes some significant progress in deciphering demotic as well. And is that sometimes overlooked, that part of the story compared with the hieroglyphs? I think so. There are scholars who even say that Thomas Young is the decipherer of the demotic. I don't think you can say that because it is really the same language. It's the same writing system. So it really goes together. and there were a few key understandings that Thomas Young at least didn't publish in this way in the correct way as reading the names correctly this is refined by Champollion much later but yeah I think the role of Thomas Young is not very clear

always in the story but he does go very far in reading large parts of the Rosetta Stone. So we have this anonymous publication in the late 1810s, nearly 1820. Guessing Champollion, he gets a copy of it, and the Rosetta Stone is proving important. But is it also important to highlight that at this time there are other objects, other people are working on things which ultimately will contribute to this hieroglyphic decipherment going further. Yeah, so even Thomas Young himself was looking at other objects, mainly mummy wrappings and mummy labels, because those were kind of objects that were distributed in Europe since the 15th century. So they were available.

Mummy wrappings, because of the mummy unwrapping events that were going on at the time, and people who attended a mummy wrapping event received a piece of the linen, preferably with some writing on it. And this was distributed across Europe and amongst scholars. Papyri were also very important. So Thomas Young has a few friends who travel to Egypt and bring back papyri, which was allowed at the time. And all these sources give him access to different kinds

of texts and that was the same for scholars working in Europe. It was mostly those small objects mummy labels mummy wrappings and papyri that they were also looking at in addition to the Rosetta Stone and some of them are in the exhibition. In the exhibition and I'm guessing it feels like we probably should mention the name William Banks. Is he one of these figures? He also plays a key role in communicating with Jung, but I'm guessing also Champollion as well, from his ventures. And what he brings back at that time, is it also important to mention that part of the story? Yes, so Banks was actually very important and Jung is communicating with him. Jung is communicating with him.

Banks traveled through Egypt and discovers, for example, an obelisk in Philae that he later brings back and puts up in his garden, which will provide a missing link for both Thomas Jung and Champollion. Very interesting is the correspondence between Thomas Jung and Banks. And at a certain point, Jung writes to the father of Banks because he doesn't know where Banks is exactly in Egypt. And it was obviously difficult to send letters to someone who's traveling in Egypt at the time. So we display this letter in the exhibition. And it's very nice because Thomas Jung not only writes the letter, but also at the end gives a few spellings of hieroglyphs that he would like Banks to check in the temples of Egypt. But he sends it to his father because he thinks maybe his father knows exactly where he is in the country and is also corresponding with him. So he said, would you mind passing on this letter? Banks receives this letter while he's in Egypt and he does go and look for specifically those names and those cartouches that Jung would like to know about.

And he finds them and he reads them and he copies them and he brings back these copies to England and so on and so forth. Yeah, he's very instrumental to the story. As I mentioned, the obelisk that comes back, the Kingston Lacey obelisk, provides a missing link because it gives the scholars the name of Cleopatra. The name Cleopatra, so they now know the hieroglyphic cartouche for two key figures there with Ptole name of Cleopatra. The name Cleopatra, so they now know the hieroglyphic cartouche for two key figures there with Ptolemy and Cleopatra. So how does this therefore ultimately result in the big Eureka breakthrough of Champollion? Yes, so important is that Banks copies the text on the obelisk and identifies the cartouche of Cleopatra but doesn't analyze the cartouche. There is a bit of discussion whether Champollion saw this copy or not. So we know for sure that these copies of

this obelisk were sent to Paris because they were in contact with some scholars in Paris, both Jung and Banks. We don't know whether Champollion saw this particular annotated version of the copy, but there's also at the same time pieces in France circulating also with the name of Cleopatra. The important thing about that cartouche is that it shares four letters with the cartouche of Ptolemy. And this is what Jung kind of misses and what Champollion uses to refine Jung's readings. So these four letters in Cleopatra mean that Jung's readings of those hieroglyphs as syllables cannot be correct. They have to be alphabetic letters in order to be used so easily in other names. And this is what Champollion will publish in his 1822 letter.

And that's the famous letter with the ultimate decoding of the hieroglyphs. Yes. I mean, so in regards to all of that, the Rosetta Stone, this renowned object, how significant is it in the whole deciphering of hieroglyphs? It seems to be important, but not the only object that ultimately contributes to that big breakthrough. Well, yeah, there were many other objects that were used, but I think the Rosetta Stone is more than providing a text. It's also, it accelerates the process of decipherment. It's because of the Rosetta Stone that people are going to look for these other objects. And the fact that Thomas Young asks Banks to look for the cartouche of Ptolemy and Cleopatra on other monuments,

because Cleopatra was known, even though they didn't have her name. Of course, she was a known king from classical sources. Many of these kings were known from the Bible. So there was an awareness that these names must have been somewhere. But I think because of the discovery of the Rosetta Stone, there is this need to find parallels for these names that were first read in the text on the Rosetta Stone. So it's a very important object to set that whole process in motion, if you want. It's the Kickstarter, isn't it? I mean, Elena, just before we completely wrap up, I'd love to ask also about the legacy of this decoding. And I know that's something you get across in the exhibition too. I mean, because the reaction to this script

being deciphered, what is the reaction in the whole world, in Britain, in France, and so on and so forth, once this decipherment has been made? Is it almost like the curse has been revealed, and there's lots of Egyptomania, and does that start really taking root? Yeah, definitely. There is a huge interest in Egypt already starting from Napoleon's expedition and the reports and the drawings and the travel accounts also that arrive in Egypt. But I think with the decipherment of hieroglyphs, it's another wave of excitement. But there were many different reactions to this. So once Champollion reads his letter in 1822, there is not an immediate acceptance that all of this was correct. So there were also a lot of critics who said, well, you know, actually he's just building on what predecessors have done.

How is it correct? How important is this? So there was also some hesitation by many scholars who still found it difficult to acknowledge that there is an ancient culture like the Egyptian one who would precede ancient Greece and Rome in being our predecessors, like in being the predecessor of this classical culture that had always been understood as the foundations of European culture, Greece and Rome being part of Europe very much. So to understand that there's this ancient civilization that is older, much older, not just a little bit older, that is in Africa also in a different place, was really quite shocking.

And there was a lot of resistance to acknowledging that our human history goes back further in time to something that is perhaps not European. That took some time. But then very soon afterwards also, Champollion himself refined his own system. And then there's other scholars who also confirm that he really laid the ground and the system works as he says it works. And there was a lot of discussion and it really spurred a lot of intellectual criticism, discussion, as research should be. There should be a lot of debate. discussion as research should be. There should be a lot of debate. It was not that everybody immediately accepted, okay, this is now it and we have everything we need. There was a lot of debate going on still. Yeah. And presumably, I'm guessing as the news spreads and the resistance decreases,

it allows these academics and others from all across the world to start re-examining objects that had already been discovered. For instance, those other objects that were taken to the British Museum at the same time as the stone. Yes, absolutely. And it spreads across the world also and to other countries. So of course, Britain and France have a huge history in Egyptology. Very soon, Germany joins this kind of early Egyptology. And Egypt, of course, has always been there. And then other countries. And nowadays Egypt is Egyptology is taught from South America to Japan. So, yeah, it's a long process that is still going on. I think very soon after the decipherment, it was really about, yeah, looking at objects again,

finding more texts, also the awareness that texts have to be copied accurately in Egypt. There was also immediately the debate about taking objects out of context. Isn't it better to copy the inscriptions while they are in situ in the temples, in the tombs, rather than taking them out? This is all something that comes out of this decipherment, in my feeling. And again, British scholars played an enormously important role in that early phase of doing epigraphy in Egypt and established a very important school of epigraphy within the field of Egyptology. So all these discussions, yeah, multiply and, yeah, are not only about understanding the text, but also about the preservation of Egyptian heritage. And all of

that comes out of this understanding of what the ancient Egyptian civilization really means to us. And Tomb of Alexander, not the Tomb of Alexander, as it turned out, was it? For example, yeah. I was in Karnak not too long ago and walking through that incredible place, and like hieroglyphics everywhere, and talking to someone who just knew what every hieroglyph was and what it meant, it just reinforces, I know the decipherment was from 200 years ago, but just how fascinating how much that therefore that revealed, starting with the Rosetta Stone and those people before the Rosetta Stone, those medieval Arab scholars and so forth. How, as you say, even to this day, it will continue to fascinate so many people across the world.

Being able to have people point out what this symbol means, what it represents, and what stories they can tell. The variety of stories it tells of ancient Egyptian history, and what stories they can tell. The variety of stories it tells of ancient Egyptian history, which spanned thousands of years. Absolutely. And especially Karnak Temple is one of those temples that was founded at a certain point and then added on to by kings successively through Egyptian history. And it has this very layered history of ancient Egypt in one place, if you want. It's a huge place because of this long history. Well, Ilona, this has been absolutely amazing. Last but certainly not least, you've curated with a great team this remarkable new exhibition at the British Museum. Talk to me

a little bit about the exhibition, It Sames, and what it all is. So I think, yeah, what is perhaps most impressive about it is that it covers such a long breadth of time. So we work that is being done on the ancient Egyptian culture and trying to still till this day try to understand it and refine our understanding of ancient Egypt. The exhibition, yeah, it tells the story of decipherment, the engagement with hieroglyphs from the 5th, 6th century onwards until the discovery of the Rosetta Stone in 1799 and then really goes into depth into the story of decipherment itself, the race of decipherment, which is presented as a race between Champollion and Thomas Young,

with also contributions of these other scholars. It shows the objects that were used, some of the objects that were used in addition to the Rosetta Stone. And then there is a large last part that talks about the legacy and the impact of the cipherman. So what do we know now about Egypt that we wouldn't know if we didn't have, if we couldn't read hieroglyphs? Fantastic. And you've got a copy of your book in front of us there. And I see that the title is Hieroglyphs Unlocking Ancient Egypt, because it was that unlocking, wasn't it, Ilona?

Well, it just goes for me to say this has been great and thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today. You're welcome it was a pleasure. Well there you go there was Dr Ilona Rogolsky explaining all about the Rosetta Stone. You can go and see the stone today right at the heart of the British Museum's newest exhibition all about the decoding of hieroglyphs. It is an incredible exhibition. I've been fortunate enough to see it already and it's a must go and see for all ancient Egypt fans

or just people generally interested because this is such a significant moment in world history when the Rosetta Stone helps the likes of Champollion, Young, Banks and so on and so forth crack the hieroglyph code, a legacy which still endures to this day. I did also mention during the podcast about the so-called tomb of Alexander. Well I did say we go back to it and in actual fact what the decoding of hieroglyphs revealed was that it wasn't the tomb of Alexander, was that it was in fact the sarcophagus of the last native Egyptian ruler, Nectanebo II. However, for those amongst you who might already know this, there is still an Alexander link to that sarcophagus which endures, a link that we will no doubt explain again in a future episode of the podcast, and probably in a documentary or two.

But that's enough rambling on from me last but certainly not least if you enjoyed the episode and want to keep helping the ancients well you know what you can do you can very easily just leave us a lovely rating on apple podcast on spotify wherever you get your podcasts from our mission the ancients team is to share these incredible stories from ancient history with you and to give the people who've devoted so many years of their life to researching these areas of ancient history the spotlight that they deserve if you want to join us in our mission then leaving us a lovely racing on wherever you get your podcast from well i would greatly appreciate it the whole team would greatly appreciate it

but that's enough rambling on from me and i'll see you in the next episode.