The Ancients - The Edomites

Episode Date: October 13, 2024

The Edomites are in the Old Testament, an ancient people who lived around Petra, Jordan before the Nabateans and before Petra was even created. King Herod was a descendant of the Edomites, and perhaps most infamously they are remembered for supporting the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar, rejoicing when he sacked Jerusalem in the 6th century BC.Tristan Hughes is joined by archaeologist Dr Matthew Vincent, who has been excavating tombs in Petra, to discuss what is known about the Edomites as archaeology and newly-discovered written sources reveal fascinating insights into how they lived.Presented by Tristan Hughes. The producer is Joseph Knight, audio editor is Max Carrey. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff.The Ancients is a History Hit podcast.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original TV documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Sign up HERE for 50% off your first 3 months using code ‘ANCIENTS’. https://historyhit.com/subscriptionYou can take part in our listener survey here: https://uk.surveymonkey.com/r/6FFT7MK

Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. The Edomites. They're mentioned in the Old Testament, a people who lived in what is today southern Jordan and rivaled the kingdom of Judah. Perhaps most infamously, the Edomites are remembered for supporting the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar and rejoicing when he sacked Jerusalem in the 6th century BC and burnt the first temple to the ground. Safe to say, we don't have the most positive portrayal of the Edomites surviving in the Bible.

But the Bible is not the only source we have for these people. Archaeology, inscriptions and other written sources have revealed so much about them and how they lived. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and in today's episode we are covering this story, the story of the Edomites. Joining me to talk through what is known about the Edomites, including the massive copper industry that they controlled, I was delighted to interview Dr Matthew Vincent, an archaeologist at the American Centre of Research in Jordan. Now I met Matthew quite recently out in Petra when we were filming our Petra and the Nabataeans documentary, which you can now watch on History

Hit. Matthew, he starred in that as well as our special ancients episode all about Petra that we released a few weeks ago. And since then Matthew, he has visited London on a very special mission. We took full advantage of this opportunity to record this ancients episode in person. The Edomites seemed a fitting topic, not only because Matthew, he knows a lot about them, but also because these were the people who lived in the area around Petra before Petra was created. They preceded this great ancient city and its builders, the Nabataeans, and archaeology has started to reveal some really interesting information about them as you're about to hear. So sit back and relax as we explore the story of the Edomites.

back and relax as we explore the story of the Edomites. Matt, it is great to have you on the podcast. Great to be doing it in person. It's so awesome to be seeing you again. Last time we met in Petra, of all places, for the documentary and for our special podcast episode. Today, slightly less arid, desert-like atmosphere. We're in the Spotify studio in London, but still rather beautiful setting in its own right. Severe lack of camels, fewer donkeys, but a fantastic setting for sure. And we have talked about Petra, of course, you and I on the podcast last time and for the documentary. Today, we're not talking about Petra, but we're keeping on that area of the world because Petra, it actually does have a link to the subject of

our story today, the so-called Edomites. Absolutely. I mean, one of the things that we got to talking to there is kind of like, well, who was here beforehand? Where did these Nebateans come from? What's all going there? And certainly part of that story and part of the story of Petra has to do with the Edomites as well. And we're going to focus on Petra and the Edomites, but also the larger story of the Edomites. So no such thing as a silly question. Matt, first off, who were the Edomites? Absolutely not a silly question.

So they're probably most famous when we think about the sort of Sunday school stories, the biblical stories. And people know about the Edomites, the Moabites, the Ammonites, you know, the kind of these, all these other kingdoms that don't necessarily form part of the biblical world that we know. There was on the periphery. Yeah, exactly. So if we think in geographical terms, the Edomites occupy the southernmost part of Jordan. So we're talking in essentially modern day Petra, where we find Aqaba, Wadi Rum, so kind of that expanse there, but also leading into the Negev on the other side of the river there. And so it's this kind of territory. But the earliest mention of the Edomites is actually coming from Egypt. So we have a 13th century inscription that mentions the Shasu, the people of Edom. So it's the first time

we kind of get this idea of a collective people known as Edomites. And do we have reference to particular figures like kings and queens and well-known ancient figures who have a link to the Edomites? I mean, for me, the one that's kind of the most interesting of all is, of course, King Herod. Big bad King Herod, you know, slaying a bunch of children. He was an Edomite. And of course, the Edomites are more mentioned by other kings. You know, again, if we go back to the sort of Hebrew Bible, it has a whole, you know, series of different figures that are mentioned, but we're not finding those as much in other inscriptions. You know, it's more like what we find in the biblical texts today. It's funny with Herod, isn't it? It's got links to the

Edomians, got links to the Nabataeans and Petra, and of course, descendancy from the Edomites as well. So that man, you could do a whole, not just one podcast episode on, you could do a whole podcast series on King Herod, I feel, because there's so much material to talk about. Absolutely. And of course, archaeologically, the things that, you know, you and I were talking earlier about some of the stuff connected with him, his son, everything else. I mean, fascinating characters. Yes, but we're going on a tangent already, aren't we? So come on, let's get back to it. So you've mentioned how the Edomites, they live in the area of what is now like a Southern Jordan, Petra, Wadi Rum, Aqaba,

just north of the Red Sea. But when are we talking with when they're living? So again, that earliest mention is sometime in the 13th century. So, you know, you can see it, you see it on the hieroglyphs on a wall, like it's set in stone. That's late Bronze Age time, isn't it?

Exactly. So this is kind of before the whole idea of these biblical kingdoms that we're aware of later on from the historical accounts. However, if we start looking at the sort of archaeological record and we start talking about, of course, one of the things you and I have mentioned is the copper mining that happens in Wadi Adaba. That really begins as early as the Chalcolithic period. So where Wadi Araba? Wadi Araba. So actually, so if you imagine again, Petra's up on that mountaintop, right? And actually, if you remember

where we were stood in the great temple, and if you would have looked towards the west, there's that one big rounded mountain that's called Umalbiada. And Umalbiada was one of the Edomite cities. This is this kind of big Edomite center right there in Petra. But if you would have kept going to the west, it suddenly drops off. So you imagine that, you know, in Petra we're somewhere around 900 meters,

958 meters of elevation. Then all of a sudden you go down into the valley and you're dropping basically down to sea level. And that's where you come to this copper mining territory of Wadi Adaba or Wadi Fanon. Does that also give a hint as the archaeology as a key source of information for learning more about the Edomites? It is not just hearing about them in the Bible, in the Old Testament and mentions of them by other great powers like Egypt. It is also an unveiling story. More information is coming to light through excavations like the ones that you've been involved in in Jordan, which is starting to reveal even more about

the Edomites and how they lived, where they lived, their cities, and so on. Absolutely. Yeah, this is always, you know, there's more to be learning. And of course, it's recent excavations within the last two decades have revealed so much about our understanding of the Edomites. And so, again, I mean, we think about their ability to organize as a, you know, cohesive group of people. It's phenomenal, the kind of amount of trade that they do. And, again, we start thinking about all of these links then. So, you know, I just mentioned the word trade. Now, who are the Nabataeans known? You know, who are they as a people? Well, they're traders,

they're merchants. And just to clarify, the Nabataeans, they are the rulers of Petra. They are the people who create Petra after the Edomites. Correct, correct. And it's again, you know, this is always the thing that we struggle with. Okay, so who's an Edomite versus who's a Nabataean? Where does one end and the other begin? And these are those lines that we just lose. Now, in a perfect world, we would have all of the human remains of the entire population. We could do the DNA studies. We could see exactly who is who. We don't have that. So oftentimes, there's an idea of a displaced population. So people talk about, oh, well, the Edomites are displaced. They're pushed out. And then we get new people coming in. But we don't really know how much that is really happening. If maybe there's an elite population that gets pushed out,

but you're sort of normal plebes, shall we say, are still staying around and just become, you know, vassals of the next kingdom. And do we know, I mean, you mentioned the word kingdom. When we say the Edomites, when we say the kingdom of Edom, is archaeology revealing more about how they lived? You've talked about cities already, but do we know much about the whole structure of the kingdom of Edom? Let's say at the beginning of the Iron Age or in the early first millennium BC, do we know much about that? Well, I think it's worth stepping back for just a moment and start bringing up a big picture of everything that's happening. So, of course, Late Bronze Age, which in the Near East ends around 1200 BC. Again, there's debates about the exact chronology. We're not going to get into the exact numbers right now, but let's just refer

to Late Bronze Age, Iron Age. These are two different periods. Things happen. Now there's this kind of massive collapse of societies at the end of Late Bronze Age. And for example, Cyprus used to be the major producer of copper. They made these ox hide ingots. These things are massive, right? I mean, they're called an ox hide ingot because you can imagine the size of this thing. You can still find them in shipwrecks nowadays. It's like the Oedipur and shipwreck and stuff. Exactly. These sorts of things. So these massive pieces, we never see that again. So obviously there's some sort of copper industry that's happening at that level. Now in the Iron Age, Wadi Fanon becomes the center of copper production, right? Now in order for it to become such a massive industry, we have to have an organized society.

start getting into like, you know, well, you've got your egalitarian societies, and then you've got your chiefdom, and then you've got a kingdom. It's talking about our ability to organize groups of people to do large tasks such as this. And the kind of work that's been done, so my former advisor at UC San Diego, Thomas Levy, led the excavations in Wadi Feinan, and specifically at a site called Kheret in theas. And he was just absolutely convinced. I mean, after seeing the level of work done there, 100%, you have a kingdom. Well, let's examine these archaeological excavations and what was being excavated. So what was found? Let's start with the mines themselves. Did they find huge mines that were evidently worked by people some 3000 years ago?

Yeah, there's absolutely still mines that are even visible today, some of the mines that were evidently worked by people some 3,000 years ago. Yeah, there's absolutely still mines that are even visible today, some of the mines that you can visit. I don't think it's quite the mines that you think about when you're imagining going down deep and you've got the helmets and your torch and everything. But these are sort of pit mines, so people are just digging straight into the ground, extracting the minerals. The geology of that area makes it very visible what's there and what's happening. It's being brought in. But archaeology, probably the most interesting thing that you see is slag everywhere. That may sound like a bad word, but actually slag is the byproduct of copper smelting or any metallurgical smelting.

And so basically you're firing the minerals and then you basically get something that ends up looking like rock. But it's not. It's everything that's left over after you melted it and extracted the raw ore out of there. And that area is so full of it. So it's not that they're just extracting the ore and taking it elsewhere, but they're smelting it all there and they're producing the copper ingots. And in this case, they're not oxide ones. They're much smaller.

You know, they're probably a few inches long or, you know, 10 centimeters long, depending on which measurement you want to use. Easily transportable that way as well. But they're all being smelted there and then moved on to other areas. So whether it went to the Mediterranean or went north up towards Damascus or out east, you know, all of the directions easily accessible from that area of the world as well. So the Edomites, they are also alongside extracting the resource and then smelting the resource. They are also overseeing the export of it to the transport of it far and wide. Well, this is what's interesting is it seems like the Edomites are also very good traders.

Interesting. They're controlling some of the principal trade routes. Again, when we think of this part of the world, there's always been these kind of ideas of three principal north-s principal trade routes. Again, when we think of this part of the world, there's always been these kind of ideas of three principal north-south trade routes. So we basically have what's called the seaway, we have the desert way, and then we have the king's highway.

The king's highway is the one that goes straight up the middle, so that one would have gone straight through Petra. The seaway is the westernmost and follows the coastline. And then the desert route is the one that, of course, is the farthest to the east,

but still kind of hugging those plateaus. So is that like the incense route and so on that kind of goes from northern Arabia all the way to southern Arabia? Similar to that, of course, that one's going east-west, and each of these are going north-south. But they were the ones that then kind of connect to other areas. So people have spent so much time looking at the north-south ones

that they don't always focus on the east-west ones. And that is part of the problem. But of course, we're talking from Edom. They could have gone to Egypt. They could have been moving products over into the Mediterranean. And of course, they could have been moving it east towards Arabia and even further on. And where are the Edomites? Because when we were talking about the Nabataeans and Petra, one of the things that we talk about again and again was how they seem to be these kind of

lords of the desert and were they able to control water in these harsh environments. Do we see anything similar with the Edomites, do we think? Were they also able to traverse deserts and move trade across inhospitable terrain too? It certainly seems like it. I mean, one of the things that does stand out is that, you know, the Edomites seem to be fairly good hydrological engineers as well. Maybe not to the levels of the Nabataeans, but their settlements certainly reflect an ability to master the control and the security of water. When you look at Edom, oftentimes people are thinking, oh, it's this, you know, very inhospitable desert landscape. Yeah, when you're down in the valleys to a certain degree, you know, if you're out in the far eastern part of it to a certain degree, but there's still a lot of water there. There's

still, you know, roughly 400 millimeter rainfall in most of the area that would have been Edom. So they're not in the worst of it. It's still a semi-arid sort of territory. But what we don't really see or what we don't really know is the kind of evidence of them being really big, long-distance traders. But they are known as managing the trade. So it's certainly a huge part of their economy. Also another question which we've talked about in the past. I know it's not very easy to answer. Could we say that they're also semi-nomadic at times? Absolutely. I mean, this is the thing that we see always going through

this time period, right? So during the Iron Age, you see this kind of these ebbs and flows. And so a city might grow and then it kind of decreases, grows, decreases, people might become a bit more nomadic. And even at the same time, like our idea of what a settled population might look like, sure, maybe they're just bouncing back and forth between a few different sites. Even when we were working down in Wadi Feinan, a lot of the Bedouin who live there, they'll spend their winters down in the valley and their summers up on the plateau. They just live between two different places. They would consider themselves Bedouin still, still fairly nomadic, but it's not like they're doing these long stretches. They're just going back and forth between two different areas.

So you mentioned earlier the Edomite settlement of Umalbiara, overlooking Petra, and it is a stunning sight, given how high it is, it almost feels like a citadel. So do you think that a settlement like that, occupied by the Edomites, is a prime example of one that was likely not occupied all year round? I mean, what does the archaeology suggest with that particular settlement? Unfortunately, I'm not as familiar with the archaeology of that one. I wish I could answer a lot more of the questions.

Now, what I do remember from it is it's a site full of cisterns. So it certainly would have been easy to occupy it all year round if you needed to. And it's actually not that difficult to get up there. I mean, it maybe takes you an hour, two hours to go up and you imagine you can have donkeys taking supplies up, everything else. It's entirely plausible that that could have been occupied all year round. Now it would have been very cold in winter. Petra already itself is quite cold in winter. I know that's hard to imagine. A lot of people think of Petra and they remember, oh yeah, I visited there in one summer and they were sweating and it was hot and it was dusty. But in the winter, Petra, and they remember, oh yeah, I visited there in one summer, and they were sweating, and it was hot, and it was dusty. But in the winter, Petra is really quite cold. It can be

wet. It can be rainy. You always have the problem of flash flooding and things like that. But again, when you go up to the top of Vumalbiara, it's literally just cistern after cistern after cistern. So it really seems like they were managing water, they're storing water there, and their own focus as a people on being masters of water. Do we have much archaeological evidence for a number of different Edomite sites across Jordan? Do we know much about their urban layouts there? What types, let's say, of ceramics that they would have had in their settlements? Do we know much about that?

Yeah, quite a bit of work has been done. So if you go to the site of Bucera, which was kind of known as the Edomite capital, so this is not too far away from Petra. And it shows a very advanced sort of urban infrastructure, urban planning. You know, you've got public buildings, you've got private dwellings. Again, the sort of infrastructure to maintain the water and everything else that they would need as a population. It's there. So they're showing to be very an advanced civilization.

as a population, it's there. So they're showing to be very an advanced civilization. And then, of course, you've got the site of Sela, which is this fortified site kind of up in the mountains. It's, you know, one might even say it's rather romantic because it's so difficult to reach. And, you know, it's this kind of very big stronghold. Of course, later on, the Babylonians come through and occupy it. So I guess it wasn't strong enough of a stronghold. But again, you know, one of these really incredible Edomite sites. We mentioned Babylonians there. We'll get to the Babylonians in a bit because I know they have a bit of a role to play in this story. I must also ask then, do we know how the Edomites, how they sustained themselves? What types of agriculture they were using as their main source of food? Yeah, I mean, I'm not entirely sure of, you know,

what different crops they're growing. And again, this is one of those things that without the kind of significant paleobotany work to be done, it's difficult to say, but it's likely the same thing that we see up and down the country, you know. So there would have been essentially, we could say, lentils, grains, pulses, things like this, fairly basic crops that are easy to grow, hardy,

the same stuff that in a lot of senses we still see grown today. And of course, animal husbandry would have been a big part of it, you know, again, sheep, goats, these sort of things, but probably as well to a certain degree, cows and potentially even pigs, depending on the sites that you're going to and where you're at, and finding evidence for that as well. Do you think camels fit into the Edomite way of life too, like with the Nabataeans a bit later? I'm sure they do. I, you know, again, like I'm not familiar if there's been evidence of camel in Edomite sites. If I recall correctly, and certainly again, leaning back on my advisor's work in Wadi Fanon, it seems like donkeys were being used primarily to transport the copper ingots. Again, camel may not have been the most appropriate to go up and down from, say,

Petra down into Wadi Ababa and then through the Negev, at which point, you know, donkeys may have been the best animal to use. And then, you know, really like the camel becomes a lot more prominent when you're getting the far distance trade against the deserts in Arabia. now i remember once again harkening back to petra that during our brief visit there and seeing you there we did also go to the Petra Museum and amongst the artifacts, there was a lot of Nabataean inscriptions. So revealing how in Petra, you learn a lot about the Nabataean language that comes of course after the Edomites at this site.

I want to almost use that as a way to come into the next question, which is about the Edomite language and also their religion as well. Do we know much about the gods they worshipped, the language they used? So if we start with language, so the Edomite language would have been yet another one of the Semitic languages. And certainly it may have had even influence over the Nabataean language.

From what we can see of the few inscriptions that are left from the Edomite world, that they're also borrowing from these earliest of the Aramaic alphabets. And so the sort of script is not too different from what we would see with the Nabataeans and fits with the kind of earliest alphabets that we see across that whole region. And again, probably, you know, if you look north and south throughout the country, you know, the language is virtually the same, but you're looking at dialectical differences. The same that even today in England, you know, the sort of different things that people might say, how they pronounce

it, how they do it. You would see that preserved still in language here today, and you're looking at something similar from there. So, you know, could an Edomite understand a Moabite or an Ammonite or an Israelite? Most likely, yes. You know, could an Nabataean understand a sort of Edomite language? Probably. And what about regarding their religion? It seems that their religion also shares some characteristics of what we see later on in the Nabataean religion. So again, this idea of, you know, natural beings, you know. So Dushara, as we know, the sort of head of the Nabataean pantheon was, you know, the god of the mountains. And it seems that the Edomites had similar sort of concepts within their religious pantheon, which again kind of makes me wonder, do we

have more of a transition between the Edomites and Nabataeans than we really realize? And this desire to get up high, I'm guessing maybe having their religious sites as high as possible to get as close to their gods, their celestial gods as possible. That could very much be a continuation. Certainly, yeah. And I mean, again, you go to a site like Umalbiada, you're as high as it gets. I must also ask, I mean, you mentioned Israelites there. So I like to talk about external civilizations, peoples who interacted with the Edomites. I mean, from the literary sources that we have, do we have many stories of the Edomites coming into conflict with neighboring powers? I

mean, I'm thinking initially, of course, of the Old Testament, if there are any stories. But of course, we can then explore even further to Mesopotamia. Absolutely. I mean, if we start with the Old Testament, we can just sum it up very easily and very quickly with they weren't loved. kind of the major strife that shows up in the biblical narrative is really one where the Edomites seem to be supporting the Babylonians in their conquest of the Israelite lands. It's like Nebuchadnezzar and the destruction of Jerusalem in the first temple, isn't it? Exactly. But of course, ironically, it seems like the Edomites get caught up in the same thing. So, you know, it's not exactly clear what's happening, but it seems that when Nebuchadnezzar overthrows Judea, essentially, which is the neighboring land next to Edom.

At that point, it also seems that the Edomites are then more or less pushed out and make their way to this. So now let's start talking about and thinking about some dates. So traditionally, we say 586, 587 BCE. That's the date of the conquest of Nebuchadnezzar and overthrows Judea. And all of a sudden, there's got to be some sort of power gap in that area. And it seems that the Edomites start slowly moving up north. Now, we can also, not too much later, of course, we've got Nebonidas who shows up and we've got his inscription. And he is the next Babylonian ruler after Nebuchadnezzar.

Exactly. And so he has his campaigns into the area as well, takes over Sela, leaves a massive inscription there. So it's this really incredible inscription to see. But of course, at the same time, this is why I say, like some people say, oh yeah, Nebuchadnezzar just displaced the Edomites. Well, no, he couldn't have displaced them

if Nebonidas then comes later on and conquers their castle. Or is he just like walking in and says, I'll have that. But, you know, what seems to be clear is that there is this transition and people are slowly moving up further north. Because when we do think about, by the time we get to King Herod, he's known as an Edomite, but he's really coming from Judea. He's not coming that far south anymore. from Judea. He's not coming that far south anymore. And at the same time, so if the Edomites are now moving out of this area, that now is opening up space for the Nabataeans to be starting to establish themselves. Because of course, we know by 300 BCE, the Nabataeans are there. They're in Petra. We've got tales of the conquests from the Macedonians coming in and attacking.

Taking us to one idea. tales of the conquests from the Macedonians coming in and attacking. Antigonus I, yeah. Exactly, in 313, if I recall correctly, something like that. But anyway, 300 BC, so not that much longer, and Petra is now established to the point that it's a kingdom that could be attacked by another kingdom. So what's happening there must have to do with this transition of power as the Edomites are slowly leaving that area. Can you talk to us a bit more about the whole Nabonidus inscription?

Because you said it's an amazing thing to see. So can you describe it a bit more and what it says about this Babylonian king who also, I believe he has a great sojourn into Arabia and Tamar too. So he's an interesting figure, Nabonidus. And this is right at the end of that Babylonian imperial Tamar too. So he's an interesting figure, Nabonidus. And this is right at the end of that Babylonian imperial period almost too. So Nabonidus, if we just start with him straight away, like he's a controversial character

in the Babylonian world because he goes off script. You know, everyone else is worshiping Marduk, the main god of the Babylonian pantheon. And he switches it up and he decides, no, no, no, I'm going to worship the moon god. Because, you know, he's his own man. Like, you know, Nabonidus wants to do Nabonidus and he's going to roll with it.

But this inscription, again, like, so you can, the only way to access this inscription today is basically rappelling down and getting to it. So this inscription has been fairly inaccessible for a very long time. So is it the bottom of a canyon or something? How should we imagine this? It's on top of a mountain.

Oh, top of a mountain. Yeah, but so you have to kind of get up. And again, so you think about in his day, he put that thing up so high and so far out of reach that no one could go and deface it, you know, without risk of personal death. Yeah, so unfortunately, the inscription itself, it's not that it's entirely

intact. It's not perfectly preserved. So we can't get everything out of it, but it primarily is talking about Nabonidus' conquest of the region of Edom, his capture of the city of Sela. So again, this is my whole thing. Like Nebuchadnezzar couldn't have displaced them all. Otherwise Nabonidus, what is he going to be even talking about? Right. But it talks about how he took control of a strategically important location. So he already recognizes for what it's worth. And of course, that is this difficult terrain and it's a fortified nature around there. But then it's also reflecting his religious devotion. And it's offering again, his prayers and offerings to this moon god, the god Sin. And he believed, of course, that this god is the one who's giving him all the victories

in these military campaigns. So, yeah, it's a fascinating inscription, beautifully decorated. And, you know, hopefully in coming years, we'll continue to be able to get more and more information from that piece. So Nabonidus, that's the 6th century BC. And as you've already mentioned, by the 4th century BC, it seems like the Nabataeans are dominant in this area of the world. Is it really now archaeology that is starting to piece together, albeit I'm guessing pretty slowly, get more of a sense as to how this transition occurs in this area of the world from the kingdom of Edom and

the Edomites mentioned and not loved in the Old Testament into the flourishing Nabataeans who build one of these great wonders of the world in Petra? Absolutely. And this is where we have to start looking to archaeology to be able to answer these questions. And I know people are working diligently to try and figure this out because we still don't really know the origins of the Nabataeans. I mean, they're often referred to as these Arabian tribes who come into the area, but do we really know that yet? Again, we don't have DNA that can say where are these people really coming from. So hopefully, you know, through DNA studies or isotope analyses,

we can really begin to nail down the origins of the people. But certainly it's enough for us to know that, yeah, by the fourth century, we now have a kingdom established. And again, like I said, a kingdom established enough to then be attacked and, you know, to be seen as at least a threat or whatever. And they're attacking Petra. So now it's finding the evidence for what does that transition look like? You know, when do we really see the end of some of these Edomite cities? But, you know, it's going to be years of work still till we can really clarify all of those kind of more minute details. Is there any other sorts of Edomite archaeology that is right at the forefront? So we've talked about, of course, the copper mines,

the copper archaeology, the cities, but do they have distinct style of pottery? Or are there other key artifacts that you usually associate with the Edomites if you're excavating a settlement, you notice something on a particular layer and you say, ah, that is the Edomites if you're excavating a settlement, you notice something on a particular layer and you say, ah, that is likely Edomite. Yeah, I mean, for me, again, it's anything associated with copper mining. These are the masters of it, right? And so in some recent excavations

that I was involved with, I found this pile of copper slag. And I'm still trying to figure out what in the world is this doing here? You know, my immediate thing is like, the Edomites were here. But we're talking about an area in a context that's much later. So again, it's the sort of question is they're certainly not smelting it there. And there's no technological material that relates to it there.

So are they literally going down into Wadi Atiba and saying, well, this slag looks cool and bring it back up and setting it in front of a tomb? Like, I don't know yet. But, you know, that certainly is one of the iconic things. And, yeah, there are distinct Edomite styles of pottery, things like that, that we could certainly help identify. And there's enough of a difference, of course, between sort of Edomite script, Nabataean script. We would be able to tell that. And, of course, by the time you get to the Nabataean pottery, it's very fineware, you know, looks a lot more like the sort of Roman pottery that we would see. So we should be able to find it in the archaeological record.

So although the kingdom of Edom seems to fade, does it seem like, as you mentioned earlier, that Herod the Great, ancestry Edomite, linked to the Edomites, does the whole name of the Edomites, does that endure for a long time? It certainly seems to. I mean, again, you know, if we've got this sort of royal family who appears established as a kingdom, I mean, it's Herod's dad who really kind of sets this thing in motion. They're not at that point in time in disfavor anymore, which again makes us wonder, were they really hated or are these just simply part of these historical texts and narratives that we get, you know, enough so to the point that if you can have a man ruling that area of the world at that point in time when King Herod is ruling, and yet he is an Edomite, and of course his mother is Nabataean. So let's start putting

all those pieces together. I remember when we were in Jordan, at least when we were in Amman, in that area as well, we're talking about the Ammonites. And I immediately think of a dinosaur with the Ammonites or the sea creature, the Ammonites. And then of course, the Moabites. And I think of the Stella of King Mesha and the Moabites.

So those are two names of other peoples in the area who are also known from the Hebrew Bible, from the Old Testament. It's almost as if they come in a three. You think Ammonites, Moabites, and Edomites. Is that too simplistic for getting a sense of this area of the world in, let's say, in the early first millennium BC? It's not too simplistic, but of course, there's a lot more nuance to it. Now, I've had the privilege now of excavating in all three of those kingdoms, and I'm a huge fan of the Moabites, not going to lie.

There's some incredible things to see out there. I've had the privilege of working at a site called Khirbet al-Balua, right on the Wadi Mujib. So it's on a wadi that feeds into the Mujib. This massive site entirely made out of basalt. So you get out there and it's just black rock everywhere. And, you know, there are still Iron Age houses intact up through the first story, but it's still,

there's another story to tell there. And, you know, unfortunately we have yet to really understand the Moabites. You know, we of course have Mesha, who, as you mentioned in the stele, but he comes from the other side of the Wadi. And his site is really quite small compared to Balua. And so it's like for me to for Misha to be bragging about all of his prowess. And yet I'm looking at this massive city to the south of the Wadi there. I'm like, how do these things all mesh up? I don't know yet. And the same thing, the Ammonites. I mean, what an incredible place that they live. I mean, the north of Jordan is so much more lush compared to the south.

And the sites there are these, you know, very interesting sites. A lot more work has been done there. But again, like we have yet to really clarify, you know, who are the Ammonites? What was their relation with the Moabites? What was their relation with the Edomites? You know, and unfortunately, I lost the keys to my time machine. So I can't quite tell you about that yet. But I mean, does it seem, at least from the outset, from the archaeology there,

that they're very distinct cultures, that you can see differences between these different peoples who lived in different parts of Jordan, but at the same time? Absolutely. And again, as you mentioned before, differences in pottery style. So there's at least enough of a difference in material culture, and we can see that evidenced there. So yeah, there are distinct things, but at the same time, we're probably looking at a blending of these cultures in many ways. As we often talk about in anthropology and archaeology, there's this idea of center and periphery. So what you have at the center is probably the most conservative of a cultural style. So your center of the Ammonites, Moabites, and Edomites, probably very distinct.

But then when you get to that periphery, that's where things start blending. And you probably have people who could easily be intermingling from these different societies and kind of meshing into one. Another thought came into my mind is you talked earlier about Aqaba, and of course on the coast of the Red Sea. And something we remember about the Nabataeans is that, yes, we think of them for land trade, but also sea trade is important as well. I remember doing an interview very recently about later Roman trade with India and the importance of maritime trade there. With the Edomites in that area of southern Jordan,

do we think they were also shipbuilders, that they had maritime trade there as well as the overland trade? Certainly it seems to be that case. And again, if we look at the Old Testament record, there's mentions of King Solomon building fleets out there. And we can imagine at the same time that the Edomites were probably also seafaring people, just as much as they were landfaring people. probably also seafaring people, just as much as they were landfaring people. You know, which also then we go back to the Nabataeans, and there's great, great pieces of information there, actually going back to the Greek text.

You know, the Nabataeans are essentially accused of being pirates, and just like looting ships and taking ships and killing all the shipwrecked people. So there's a long history of seafaring people in that part of the Red Sea coming from Aqaba that was a long-standing and really very important port. God, I love it. It's like Aqaba was a Bronze Age Tortuga or something like that. Absolutely. Quite cool, isn't it? Matt, this has been absolutely brilliant. We've covered so many different aspects of the Edomites. They're still very much shrouded in mystery, aren't they? But is there anything else that you want to highlight about the Edomites and what we should be thinking about

when someone next mentions the Edomites? Of course, you know, naturally in your chats down the pub, that topic will come up. As it does. You know, I think we've covered a lot of the really important things. But again, you know, I think what's really interesting for us to think about as we look at these ancient cultures is this was an organized society. And if we were there as a visitor, imagine we could understand the language and everything else. I think we'd probably see a lot of things that are very familiar to us. The way that people live, the way that they conduct themselves on a day-to-day basis. It would be absolutely incredible. There would be a lot that seems very familiar and a lot that would seem very, very foreign to us.

And may I also ask, in the most polite way possible, what were you doing over here in the UK? What are you doing over here in the UK? So, I mean, there's two things. I do have to admit, I came over for a wedding, but at the same time, part of that was taking advantage of the trip to personally deliver samples from our recent excavation. So these samples are light sensitive samples. So they're for optically stimulated luminescence, which we can use to date soil layers.

And it's the safest way to get them up there. And you think about the money that goes into an excavation. We can't risk just sending it by post. So, you know, it was personally making sure it got delivered to the people at St. Andrews who are now working through these samples. Wow. Archaeology, very cool indeed. Very cool stuff. Matt, this has been brilliant. Lastly, you work with the American Center of Research out in Jordan. Tell us a bit about what you do out there. So, my job is I'm actually the director of the National Inventory Project. So we're working on putting together a catalog of all of the movable

cultural heritage, which is cultural heritage speak for objects and artifacts. So everything you might see in a museum, we're putting into a database. We're doing this in collaboration with the Department of Antiquities. And it's from a very generous grant that we've got from the U.S. State Department that lets us work on this. And it'll be a first in the region. So a national database. And we hope that this helps in preventing illicit trafficking, but also really helps us move forward our understanding of Edomites, Nabateans, Ammonites, Moabites, and many other cultures. Well, Matt, we're very grateful for your time. And it just goes to me to say, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.

Tristan, always a pleasure. Well, there you go. There was Dr. Matthew Vincent talking all about the Edomites. It was great to interview Matthew whilst he was over here in Britain, and I really do hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you for listening to it. Please follow The Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free, and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. As a special gift, you can also

get 50% off your first three months when you use code ANCIENTS at checkout. That's enough from me, and I will see you in the next episode.