The Ancients - The Fall of Mark Antony: From Caesar to Cleopatra

Episode Date: June 2, 2024

After the death of his patron Julius Caesar, the Roman world was Mark Antony’s for the taking. His triumph over Caesar’s assassins at Phillipi in 42 BC only served to cement his legendary status as Rome’s most feared commander. But then came Octavian and Cleopatra…In this episode of The Ancients - the second, and final part of our special series on the life of Mark Antony - Tristan is once again joined by Professor Jeff Tatum to discuss how Antony filled the power vacuum left by Caesar’s assassination. They then retell and assess his fight for power with Rome’s latest young upstart, Octavian and the fateful events that led to his demise at the court of Cleopatra.This episode was produced by Joseph Knight and edited by Peter Dennis. Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Get a subscription for £1 per month for 3 months with code ANCIENTS - sign up here.You can take part in our listener survey here. 

Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. In the evening of the 15th of March, 44 BC, Julius Caesar's corpse lay punctured with more than 20 stab wounds, lying lifeless in the Senate meeting room. His assassins, calling themselves the Liberators, had fled, seeking refuge atop the Capitoline Hill, one of the great hills of ancient Rome. There they waited to see how Caesar's powerful right-hand man would react to their bloody deed. It's the ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and welcome to the second

and final episode in our small mini-series all about the notorious Roman statesman and general Marcus Antonius, Marc Antony. In the last episode we explored this man's early life and how he rose to become Julius Caesar's right hand man. We left Marc Antony's story at one of the most seismic events of his lifetime, the Ides of March, 15 March 44 BC, when Julius Caesar, dictator of Rome, was assassinated. For Mark Antony, the killing of his ally Caesar would prove one of the most important moments of his life, propelling him right to the forefront of Roman politics, ultimately leading him

to fight the likes of Brutus and Cassius, to contend with a new rising player in the young Gaius Octavius, the later Augustus, and of course, to begin his legendary love affair with the one and only Queen of Egypt, Cleopatra. We're going to cover all this and more over the next 45 minutes, from Caesar to Cleopatra and from Rome to Alexandria. Our guest is once again Professor Geoff Tatum, Mark Antony's very own 21st century biographer. I really do hope you enjoy, and here's Geoff. Jeff, wonderful to have you back on the podcast. Good to be here.

Now, we've done part one already. Mark Antony, a titanic figure. We've gone from his beginning, his birth in early years, all the way to him rising to prominence under Julius Caesar and the assassination of Julius Caesar. So let's kick off from where we ended with a brief recap from you, Geoff. So it's just after the assassination of Julius Caesar. How is Mark Antony reacting to the death of this very close ally of his? Yeah, well, as we said before, Antony, in partnership with Cicero, forged this amnesty, which in principle should bring all parties together. And in a sense, it does. There are

no trials or executions. But immediately thereafter, Antony begins pushing the importance of Julius Caesar's legacy. He does this in the funeral oration and emphasizing the treachery of those who assassinated Caesar, who, after all, were his friends, and had sworn an oath to protect him. So stirring this up, it creates, at every social level, a powerful sense that the assassins were wrong in their treatment of Caesar. There's a slice of senatorial life that approve of the assassins, but there's a bigger slice that feel that Caesar's death was unfortunate for everyone. And then as Roman consul, his first steps are to ensure that all of Caesar's laws are preserved, that Caesar's plans and designs are executed,

laws are preserved, the Caesar's plans and designs are executed. But then he begins to shift toward new plans and designs, which are his. He begins crafting a sort of Antonian policy for his own political future, his next steps. You mentioned there the name Cicero, who of course we covered a lot in part one, this very well-known orator, the most famous orator of ancient Rome, who, as you mentioned, early on in his career seems to be a friend of Mark Antony, but that definitely disappears by this time and it becomes more enemies. So Cicero, as this prominent statesman, he's seen the civil war and Julius Caesar's rise and fall, and now he's seeing Mark Antony trying to implement his own policies and rise to the top. How does he react? Does he decide to try and be the person who stops Mark Antony in his tracks?

Certainly, the tensions between them increase. Well, for one thing, Cicero hated Julius Caesar, and he was entirely supportive of Caesar's assassination. And as Antony's consulship proceeds, and he sees that Antony and Dolabella, who's the other consul, are completely Caesarian in their approach, hostile to Brutus and Cassius. Cicero turns against them because he takes the side of Brutus and Cassius. So these tensions increase more and more. Cicero's famous for saying the tyrant is dead, but the tyranny lives on until he makes himself Antony's enemy by delivering a series of blistering speeches. The most blistering of all was never delivered. The second Philippic, it was a pamphlet. But he delivers these blistering speeches attacking

Antony and Antony's policies. And by the end of 44, Antony and Cicero are bitter enemies. They could not be more hostile to one another in every respect. And so how does this affect Antony to have such a prominent enemy really going for him in the Senate? Does it force him to move out of Rome? I mean, what's the next steps for him? It's difficult because Cicero is one of the most distinguished senators alive. Now, he's a great man. He has all of the cultural cachet of being a great man. But Antony is the consul, and he has power. What affects this dynamic in different ways is the appearance of Caesar's heir, the young Octavian, who, when he arrives on the scene, cunningly begins to cultivate Cicero. And Cicero begins to see, and others who dislike Antony, but especially Cicero, begins to see in young Octavian the perfect agent for elbowing Antony out of the way. Because young Octavian, he's Caesar's heir, he's perfectly Caesarian, he in some ways is outside of the senatorial politics because he's younger. So young Octavian, from Cicero's perspective, is the tool he can use to dislodge

Antony. Of course, Octavian has ideas of his own, but his presence affects the dynamics. Even other Caesareans now have a choice. If you don't like Antony, but Antony is the only game in town, the presence of Octavian gives you another route to being a good Caesarean without being under Antony's thumb. So does that work in weakening Antony's power straight away? I mean, how does he react to this? Are they therefore straight back onto a war footing and civil war could be on the cards again? Well, for the most part, it seems to me that Antony doesn't take Octavian all that seriously.

He's more worried about some of the other figures in the Senate whom he knows, especially the men who will be consuls in the year 43 BC, Herdeus and Ponsa, good Caesareans, but they don't like Antony very much. So he begins making his own plans. He arranges for the province of Gaul to become his pro-magisterial province, as it was for Caesar, so they'd have a safe and secure place, not too far from Rome, you know, close enough to matter, but far enough to secure his own independence. He's making all of these plans. He passes legislations that people will like and that veterans will like. But what begins to stir things up, even when he's consul, is that the young Octavian, who's being

bankrolled by many of Antony's enemies, goes to the colonies and begins to recruit a private army, which he plans to use to assert himself in politics. And even some of Antony's legions he manages to lure away by giving them incredibly generous don'ts. Now, this is treason, but Cicero masks it as a kind of political initiative designed to preserve Libertas. He comes up with a rhetoric and a theory that young Octavian is acting in this way because you have to step outside the rules to preserve Rome from Antony the tyrant, even though he's Antony the consul of Rome. So by the end of the year, there's a very real danger of civil war in that there are illicit soldiers marching around in

Italy. of civil war in that there are illicit soldiers marching around in Italy. Illicit soldiers marching around in Italy. And for Antony, as a military man, I mean, I can't imagine, well, I can never imagine being in Antony's shoes, let's be honest. But for him, you know, as we mentioned in the first part, these soldiers who adored him, that charisma, very similar to Caesar, to then seeing the young Octavian almost ripping them away from him for this potential rival of the faction. I mean, that must have been, especially with Octavian's young age, must have been enraging for Mark Antony. How does he react to that? Well, certainly enraging and perplexing. I mean, Octavian has the advantage of,

he's now using the name Caesar and he's Caesar's heir. He describes himself as Caesar's son. And so the soldiers find that attractive too. So there's competing charisma, and he gets willing to spend a lot more money. I think Antony's initial plan was to find a way to suppress Octavian as the traitor that he could be described as. But Cicero and others, because they provide this moral and eventually kind of legal cover for him, they leave Antony flummoxed in Italy. And so he simply takes his legions and he heads towards his province, working on the assumption that from there, he can sort things out in security and working on the assumption that Octavian's activities will eventually alienate.

So he marches his legions north. How long, however, I mean, Cicero, he's not going to give up. He thinks Octavian's his pawn. How long before they go after Antony and try to, well, try to get rid of this man once and for all? It's just months later. Once the new consuls come in, Octavian is given an irregular appointment. So now he possesses Imperium. He's an officer. He's part of the establishment. and he, at first one and then eventually both consuls, march north to confront Antony around the city of Mutina, where Antony has the problem that the current governor of Gaul won't go, and so he's besieging the current governor of Gaul in the city of Mutina. And very, very soon, two armies from Italy come marching into

Gaul as well. All these armies come and collide. You would think that that could potentially have been the end for Mark Antony. But how does he go from this time where it looks like his time is up and he's got all these other armies against him, to him actually reviving and becoming part of something that we'll explore a bit later, the second triumvirate. What are these steps? Much of it has to do with his preparations in the past, the kind of aristocratic networking that we talked about in the first part. In the north, there are provincial governors in command of troops, people like Asinius Polio, There are provincial governors in command of troops, people like Asinius Palio, Lepidus, the future triumvir, Munatius Plancus.

These were Caesar's men. They become Antonian friends and allies. And he, in 44, has promoted their careers and put them in these positions of authority in the north. After the various battles of Mutina, when Antony is defeated and must flee, he goes north to link up with these figures. And had they turned their backs on Antony, that would have been the end of Antony. But they don't turn their backs on Antony. They embrace him, in fact, accept him as their leader.

So Antony then can come back to Italy in command of a massive force against which Octavian simply couldn't defend himself. The two consuls of 43 both perish in the events at Mutina. And so it's young Octavian with his own soldiers. In fact, he seized Rome and made himself consul, but he doesn't have the resources to deal with this powerful army coming from the north. So Antony saves himself in 43 largely by way of his earlier networking, by way of friends, his cultivation of talented people. These non-martial elements give him the resources he needs in order to return to Italy. So rather than then going and getting revenge and crushing Octavian and also then crushing Cicero too, what leads Antony to take the next move, which is one of the most interesting, well-known parts of this post-Caesar world? Why does he then decide to

meet with Octavian and then form their own alliance? It seems pretty clear that once Octavian knows that Antony has established himself in the north, that his allies are remaining loyal, that he immediately begins to communicate with Antony to back down, in a sense, that he's willing to concede Antony's seniority. He's willing to emphasize their common relationship with Caesar. One of the things Octavian was very good at was he knew when to yield and when not to yield. And to point out that it's not to the advantage of Antony to march back to Rome and do harm to Caesar's heir, you know, someone who's named Caesar, whom the people regard as Caesar's heir and son, the soldiers regard as Caesar's heir and son. And they work out, again,

another negotiated relationship, whereby it's just in their advantage to work together. And as you say, as they do, Octavian and Antony and Lepidus form what we tend to call the second triumvirate, the great triumvirate, which will manage Roman affairs. Ascennius Palio, Muncius Plancus, these guys, they don't get to make it into this trio, which is interesting in its own way. But these three come to an agreement that means that there won't be civil war in Italy, but there definitely will be civil war in the East, where Cassius and Brutus are. Ah, there's those chief conspirators in the assassination of Julius Caesar. Interesting

mention Lepidus there. So he's another prominent figure at this time who kind of gets brought in alongside Antony and Octavian at this point, is he? Yeah, he's the triumvir that most people forget about. But he's the most nobly born of them all. His family is ancient, successful in every generation. And he too was very, very close to Caesar and much admired by Caesar. That's why he's in the position. He's older than both Octavian and Antony, and social cachet, wealth, and a big army of his own. So he's brought in to the triumvirate. We know less about him than we would like to know, mainly because he falls out fairly early. But he is clearly one of the three. The kind of power he had is greater than we can detect. Otherwise, he wouldn't be one of the three. The kind of power he had is greater than we can

detect. Otherwise, he wouldn't be one of the Triumvirs. So you've got this kind of new line in the sand drawn, like these new allies of Octavian and Mark Antony and Lepidus. And Mark Antony is this very prominent figure in that. It's almost like, as you say, going against the likes of Cicero, Brutus, Cassius, those who were very happy when Caesar had been assassinated. With the figures that they've got at their disposal, Jeff and the money and everything, how do they go about dealing with their enemies? How do we envisage the second triumvirate with Mark Antony going onto the front foot and embracing that war footing once again? The triumvirs make their way to Rome. A tribune of the people passes a law

which establishes the triumvirate as the government of Rome. These three men have absolute power, and it's irresponsible power. They can't be prosecuted when the triumvirate comes to an end. The Roman people, in theory in any case, invest in the three of them this enormous power for a period of five years. And their responsibility is to restore the Republic. And it's understood that part of restoring the Republic is avenging the death of Caesar. The amnesty is forgotten, and the first order of business for the triumvirs is to punish the enemies of Caesar, something they define pretty broadly because one of the first things they define pretty broadly, because one of the first things they do is institute a purge called the prescriptions, in which they post lists of

their enemies. And they're absolutely blunt about this. You know, we're not forgiving any of these people. Here's a list of people that can be killed on site. In fact, they must be killed on site. And if you help us, we'll give you some of their property but they've got to go and at the top of the prescription list famously is cicero ah so mark anthony gets his man in the end i mean that's such a tragic story how as you say if they started as friends and then end as the most vicious of enemies and how you know one of cicero's works the philippics is so key in us having this very infamous opinion of Mark Antony today. It is such a tragic story. I know we look at Antony and Cleopatra, we focus on that

so much of the time. But the story of Mark Antony and Cicero, as I said, it's pretty sad. It's sad. And the way it's represented in our source is utterly vicious. Cicero's head is cut off, his hands are cut off, they're nailed to the rostra. Whether or not it's true, Antony's wife Fulvia mutilates Cicero's tongue with a hairpin, the tongue that delivered the speeches attacking her husband. It's painted in grotesque colours for us. Grotesque indeed. So five years, the triumvirate is in power, supposedly to restore the Republic, supposedly. Of course, you've still got those other villains that, well, in their eyes, those conspirators in Caesar's assassination to the east. I'm guessing Mark Antony doesn't waste much time given his military background. Is he out there with his legions very soon after? Is he going after Brutus and Cassius? Is he going back east? very soon after? Is he going after Brutus and Cassius? Is he going back east?

Absolutely. He and Octavian, Lepidus is left to run Rome. He and Octavian go east, and their task is formidable because Brutus and Cassius haven't been sitting on their hands. They've been squeezing every dime out of the eastern Mediterranean, often by sacking cities and plundering principalities. It's a pretty savage time for the eastern Mediterranean, the domination of Brutus and Cassius. So they've amassed a huge army. They have huge resources. They're better funded than Antony and Octavian are. And they hold the east. They are the masters of the east. So Antony and Octavian have a challenge when they go east to defeat these armies. But of course, they do. Okay, so they do a pitch battle, they manage to defeat the armies. How significant a moment is

that when it's almost like they've achieved their objective of defeating those conspirators of Caesar, who also then perish in the aftermath of those battles at Philippi? Now that they don't have those enemies alive anymore, they've kind of done this purge. I mean, Geoff, what is the situation for Mark Antony now? Is he just like, okay, this is great. Got this alliance going with these other figures as well. I can manage alongside these and I can now be one of, if not the most influential person in the running of the Roman Republic. Well, the Battle of Philippi, two battles of Philippi technically, but the Battle of Philippi is, in living memory, the most vicious and greatest in

terms of scale battle the Romans have seen. It is one of the, in terms of lethality, one of the major battles ever fought by Romans. And Antony emerges as the winner. Octavian doesn't get any credit for this, and he shouldn't get any credit for this. Terrible stories are told about him, but he was ill most of the time. Antony is now, in everyone's mind, the greatest general alive. He had so much mana from this victory that just by way of the victory, everyone is intimidated. He's now the top triumvir. But Antony and Octavian and Lepidus have a problem. They've got thousands and thousands of soldiers they need to retire. And these soldiers who are formidable because they fight civil wars, they need land, they need donatives. And so it's decided that

Octavian will sort this out in Italy. Dealing with the veterans will be his problem. And it's a real problem because it means throwing Italian peasants off their land because the Triumvirs don't have any money and a brutal, terrible time in Italy. But that's going to be Octavian's problem, not Antony's. Antony instead is going to go to the east and try to extract more money to help to pay for these things and to put the Roman government on a proper footing. So his job is over the next couple of years to go east and raise enough money to pay the Triumvir's bills. So this is his first time being sort of a master of the East. Master of the East. And I'm guessing, Geoff, this is the context in which we start getting into the story of him meeting the most well-known queen of ancient history.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, in addition to extracting money, Antony has to reorganize the politics of the East. Who will be king? Who will run this principality? Even city governments. And the richest kingdom in the East is Egypt. And Egypt owes money to prominent Romans. And Egypt is expected to pay its share of all of this.

And there's some question over where Cleopatra's loyalties were during the Civil War. So Cleopatra has some questions to answer, and Antony wants to ask these questions, and he demands her presence at the city of Tarsus for an interview. And of course, Antony's met her before. He met her in Rome. He met her when she was younger and all of this. But it's not the first meeting, but it's the most important meeting between them, because Cleopatra decides to and all of this. But it's not the first meeting, but it's the most important meeting between them because Cleopatra decides to use all of the magistrate and flummery and showbiz technique that the Ptolemies used to present their powerful image in the world. And of course, no one's described this better than Shakespeare in describing Cleopatra's

appearance at Tarsus. And it's the beginning of a relationship that will become world-shaking in the context of the Mediterranean. Because it is interesting at this time, because you have already mentioned Antony's other wives who he's had already. And at that time, this formidable woman called Fulvia. I mean, can we kind of set that up a bit more so we have of course cleopatra emerging onto the stage at this time but with mark anthony's love life up to then alongside his courtesans and his other things when it comes to his wives what do we know about his other wives

before we get to the figure of cleopatra well it's sometimes alleged that anthony's first wife was a freed woman named fadi That seems not to be the case. It was an affair, but not a marriage. But there were children. Antonia, whom he divorces with some bitterness. Then Fulvia, who was herself a powerful, wealthy, formidable woman. Her previous husbands had been major players in Roman politics. And the partnership between Fulvia and Antony,

naturally Cicero describes it as horrible and abusive, but they are a real power couple in Roman society. And Fulvia seems willing to look past some of Antony's affairs in the East. You know, they don't count because they're foreigners, I guess. And she is his wife when he meets Cleopatra. But this meeting with Cleopatra, Plutarch represents it as the beginning of a great passion. Plutarch, in his Greek, basically says that Cleopatra was able to seduce him and carry him off to Alexandria. It's not quite the case, but that's what Plutarch and others like to begin this relationship. What seems to happen is

they do sleep together. There's no question about that. And Antony and Cleopatra work out Egypt's relationship with Rome. And then Antony goes to spend winter in Alexandria, which is the nicest city in the ancient world. And he does have a sexual relationship with Cleopatra. He leaves her pregnant. But there's no reason to think that Antony ever planned to come back again. And in fact, he won't see her again for several years because he has to go back and deal with problems in Italy. So the relationship in the first year in Alexandria looks, from an outsider's perspective, a lot more transactional than it looks romantic. You can see so many similarities with Julius Caesar, can't you? And then him returning to Rome. In fact, it had to even be a little frisson

for somebody like Mark Antony, that he's seducing the same woman Caesar famously seduced. I mean, you know, it's creepy to put it that way, but he can't not have known that Caesar had been in Alexandria too. Well, okay, so Antony's gone to the east, as you say, to try and gain more money, and then he's also had this sexual relationship with Cleopatra over the winter but he does head back to Italy to his wife Fulvia and to Octavian I mean obviously now this is a couple of years later since he left to go and do all of that stuff in the east I mean what is Octavian's reaction when Mark Antony comes back you know with this liaison with Cleopatra and time in the East, is this when we start to see relations between these two prominent figures starting really to fracture? Well, they've actually fractured while Antony is away. While Antony's in the East, Fulvia and Antony's younger brother,

Lucius Antonius, essentially organise a revolt against Octavian's authority, the so-called Perusine War. And for Octavian, it's very confusing. There are no communications with Antony, so he doesn't know if these two are mavericks or if this is Antony's policy, and historians still argue over which it is. But after Octavian is successful, Fulvia flees to the east. Octavian makes Lucius one of his officers in the west because he's all about forgiving Antony if there is a problem. But when Antony comes back after his time in Egypt, there's a real danger of another civil war. Italy's braced for these two to fight. But fortunately for the two of them, Fulvia gets sick and dies. And so all sides are able to blame it on Fulvia, which is why, I mean,

Fulvia's reputation is so terrible during the Perizzine War, largely because when she passed away, Octavian and Antony, neither of whom wanted to fight a civil war, found a scapegoat in poor Fulvia. So she becomes the person responsible for everything, and they can realign. And this is when Antony marries Octavia and sister Octavia, and they become brothers-in-law. Okay, so they've united. And always this comes as sort of a tangent, because obviously all these many women associated with Mark Antony, whether it's Fulvio, Octavia, or Cleopatra. But if we focus in on this marriage with Octavia, I mean, the products of this marriage and the offspring, how important does Mark Antony become in the whole story of what follows his death in the 1st century BC, 1st century AD, in the forming of that Roman Empire that is so iconic in our minds today? Well, their children will become absolutely central to the Julio-Claudian dynasty in such a way that Augustus and Antony, in some sense, share many of the Julio-Claudian emperors, certainly by way of legal connections. But,

you know, Caligula, Nero, maybe not the most ideal choices, but much of the Julio-Claudian family is Antony's family. He has this powerful legacy. And we know that figures like Caligula were keen to remind people that he descended from Mark Antony. Mark Antony didn't lose his glamour even after he became kind of persona non grata in terms of political discourse. That's one of the reasons somebody like Plutarch writes about it. He has both a genetic and kind of notional presence in the Julio-Claudian period. So it sounds like at this time, both Mark Antony and Octavian, they don't want a war between each other. They're trying to unite their families. And of course, Octavia and Mark Antony have offspring that leads to these really important figures in Roman history.

Geoff, the next question, if we go moving on as we get towards Antony and Cleopatra proper, what causes this all to start falling down and Mark Antony to think, my place is not in Rome, it's in Alexandria in the east. It's in some ways the fundamental question of the Triumval Period. Why don't they restore the Republic? Why does it fall apart? Because none of this was inevitable. It's easy for us to be so cynical as to think that once three people are in charge,

eventually there would be one person in charge, and that this was just a matter of delay. And sometimes the triumvirate period is seen that way, sort of halftime. There were moments when Octavian and Antony could have handed the republic back and each would have been one of the most formidable people in the world within a republican context. within a republican context. My own view is that Octavian, once the triumviral period was underway, never had any intentions of restoring the republic. Whatever one thinks of Augustus, this is a figure who just thinks and feels differently from other Roman nobles. I mean, sometimes in dark ways, he's treacherous and conniving, but also in big ways. He had a vision for what Rome should be, which is the age of Augustus and these sorts of things. My own view is that Antony did not have a big vision for what Rome should be. He still thought

as a traditional Roman, and he didn't like cunning and these sorts of things. But my instinct is that Antony's endgame was that the Republic would come back and he would simply be the richest, most distinguished person in it, and he could do whatever he wanted. But in terms of the way the relationship frays, we see this in bits and pieces. They actually cooperate far longer than one might have expected, even when there are tensions between them. It's not till the very end that it must have become clear to both of them that a clash was imminent. And so far as I can tell, it's Antony who makes the first move. He begins organizing troops and putting them together and shifting them toward

the West before Octavian does anything that's similar. Octavian seems to be reactive to me in all of this. But the relationship frays the way, I guess all relationships fray in bits and pieces without one great moment. The great moment when it happens, the relationship was already over anyway. The divorce between Octavian and Antony and declaring Antony an enemy of the state, that all happens after the relationship has dissolved. Well, as we kind of get to that, and you know, that final big clash at Actium between the two, with Antony, although yes, he is married to Octavia and that divorce does come, but he goes

east to Egypt and he's then settled in Alexandria and he's living with Cleopatra, although officially married to Octavia. You have to ask about the mindset of Cleopatra. Obviously, it's portrayed always as this kind of great love match between the two. But do you think that there was more of a diplomatic idea behind it, particularly from Cleopatra, that she's using Antony for her own ends? It's a perplexing kind of problem, isn't it? own ends. It's a perplexing kind of problem, isn't it? I have no doubt that Antony's relationship with Cleopatra began in what we might call transactional terms, but eventually became genuinely affectionate. I think we can trace how over time during the 30s, Antony becomes needier just as a person and is increasingly brought into Cleopatra's world for his own psychological benefit.

On the other side, it's difficult for me to decide whether Cleopatra shared these kinds of feelings or performed sharing these kinds of feelings because Antony was so essential to the resurgence of Ptolemaic Egypt. Ptolemaic Egypt does brilliantly when Antony's in charge. I mean, Antony recognized Cleopatra as a good leader, a serious thinker, and all of these things, but also their personal relationship is a part of it. So already our ancient sources suggest that Cleopatra's intentions were always perhaps as much rooted in diplomacy as in romance. And I think most historians probably draw that same conclusion. I'm more a kind of non-liquid person.

I don't know. There's no moment or gesture that suggests to me, this is someone who is not using this relationship. Because I can't see that doesn't mean it isn't there. not using this relationship. Because I can't see that doesn't mean it isn't there. And it's hard to evade all of the bad press that Cleopatra gets in our sources. But who knows? I mean, in any relationship, you never really know what's going on once the doors are closed. Absolutely. When Mark Antony has decided that he doesn't want to be in Italy any longer, and he migrates and he moves to Alexandria.

And he very much lives with Cleopatra. And they rule together. Do we know much about Antony's time there and his ruling? I mean, is this a time, thanks to Antony's support and his military muscle, that Alexandria enjoys like a golden age and the Ptolemaic kingdom in Egypt enjoys a golden age, and the Ptolemaic kingdom in Egypt enjoys a golden age, and that Antony is, in fact, the ruler of a very, very powerful nation in the eastern Mediterranean. Well, during Antony's time as triumvir, Egypt does very, very well. It regains possessions in the Near East that the kingdom hasn't enjoyed for centuries. And Antony's

patronage of the city as a guest is certainly to the advantage of Alexandria. But it's important to observe that Antony always treats Egypt as the ally that it is. He doesn't hold offices in Alexandria. He has no position in Alexandria. So far as we can tell, typically when he comes to Alexandria, he doesn't come with a large army in tow or anything along those lines. It's choreographed always so that Cleopatra is queen of Egypt and Antony is the Roman ally who is a guest when he's in Egypt. Now, at a social level, we know that Antony receives divine honors in Alexandria and these sorts of things, but a Roman ally could get those in any client kingdom. So they work very, very well to maintain this distinction so that Cleopatra remains the ruler and her son Caesarian the likely successor.

Well, okay. There's so much we could talk about with Mark Antony's story, but I think we've covered enough. Let's get to the final act of Mark Antony and Cleopatra, I guess, too. He's had a very event-filled 15 years or so since Julius Caesar's assassination, if we get to roughly 30, 31 BC. Geoff, how does it all come crashing down for Mark Antony? When Antony makes the decision that he's going to fight a civil war with Octavian, he assumed, and any observer would assume, that he would win. He was the victor at Philippi, he has infinitely more wealth, lots more soldiers, and he has absolute control over an Eastern Mediterranean that knows how to behave. Octavian has other problems. The first snag for him, though, is that when it's time to begin the campaign,

the first question is, what do we do about Cleopatra? And many of Antony's advisors felt she should remain in Egypt to manage, and like other allies, she should be in Egypt, and she can look after Eastern affairs because she's competent, trustworthy, formidable. But others felt we really do want her advice in the war. And Antony, after a long, painful process, elected to bring Cleopatra along as an advisor, along with his generals. And that turns out to have been a bad idea. Maybe he didn't know it at the time, but it turns out not to have been a good idea. Then they all simply move to the east. You know, winter has come. Antony puts his armies and his navies in place. You know, people start wars in the spring when the weather's good.

So he and Cleopatra and all of his forces simply expect to enjoy the winter. And then when spring comes, they'll begin fighting. And Antony, as I say, had no doubt that he would win, as I'm sure many people on Octavian's side worried that Antony would win. But what ought to have happened or what one expected to happen doesn't because of Octavian's brilliant general, Marcus Agrippa, who decides that even though it's still winter, he's going to launch some surprise attacks on Antony's forces. He does so successfully, and this throws things into such a helter-skelter on Antony's side that he's never able, when spring comes, to get a solid footing. And that's how they all find themselves

at Actium, where much of Antony's fleet is. Octavian has a superior, well-watered camp. Where much of Antony's fleet is, Octavian has a superior, well-watered camp. Antony's forces find themselves in a kind of not very nice camp where they can't sustain themselves. But Octavian won't fight a pitch battle because he knows he doesn't need to. And people in the east, once Antony's invincibility is less obvious, begin to rethink their loyalties. So we have this standoff in which Antony's situation is eroding. And so what they decide to do is to fight a sea battle to get the navy out and to send the treasury, which is with them, back to Egypt. And then the infantry forces will march back into Greece and everybody will wait and they'll fight again next year. And that was a

good plan. And had they followed it correctly, Mark Antony might have been victorious. But he makes his second big mistake. And that is he goes with Cleopatra to Egypt. He puts his most trusted marshal in charge of the infantry, tells him where to go. We'll meet you there in the new year to fight. And he with Cleopatra, they fight the Battle of Actium, which is simply an escape route for the fleet. And that clearly was his great mistake.

His legions would have followed him anywhere, but they want to follow him. Instead, he leaves them behind, taking them for granted. And suddenly, Octavian and others are there to shower them with donatives, praise, point out that Antony has failed in the fundamental duty of a Roman general, which is to stay with his army. But that mistake, you know, it's not something that happened in the clash of battle. It's not two cosmic forces coming together the way it's represented in Augustan poetry. It's the decision to go to Alexandria when he should have spent the rest of that year with his legions that causes everyone then to go to the other side. His legions just melt away. What a catastrophic decision. And especially, as you said, if his legions,

they really still love the man to see him desert them at this time of great need, it really emphasises the massive misjudgment he made there. I mean, he's lost his whole army, Geoff, when he's back in Alexandria. Do you think he knows that he's on borrowed time, that there is a reckoning and it's coming soon and quickly for him? Well, he eventually does. I mean, he and Cleopatra get back and it's only later, not that much later, but later that they learn the legions are gone. So they then begin exerting themselves with all the talent that they have to see what resources they can find. Can we get armies here? We can get forces there. And it's always pointless because everyone realizes the situation that they're in. They come up with ideas for getting away. None of these work out.

that they're in. They come up with ideas for getting away. None of these work out. And so Antony creates a kind of fortress Egypt, the purpose for which is not immediately clear. We're told that he negotiates with Octavian to suggest, just as Lepidus went into internal exile in Italy, why don't you let me go to Athens and I'll become a private citizen there? That was never going to happen. Lepidus is one thing. Antony is another. Perhaps he hoped that if they could rebuff a certain number of attacks, it would be worth it to Octavian to leave them in Egypt, but that was never going to happen either. So there's a lot of energy devoted toward defense and preservation, but it's just hard to see how any of these plans was really going to work. Historians argue a lot about what Octavian

ultimately wanted from Cleopatra, but it's clear that what he really wanted from Antony was a suicide. And he knows that Antony's a Roman noble whose self-image, his notion of prestige, Antony's a Roman noble whose self-image, his notion of prestige, his concept of dignity means that ultimately he will. Antony is not going to let himself be taken prisoner. So there's a creepy waiting game that's going on in which perhaps Antony hopes against hope that something will go his way. But even he had to know that there was no dignified escape for him. And as a Roman noble, he doesn't have many options. So he falls on his own sword or something like that. And that is another part, isn't it, of that well-known Shakespearean play and Implutarch and everything. That is the sad

end of Mark Antony, that he dies with his lover Cleopatra very close by. Yes. In Shakespeare, he dies a Roman, vanquished by a Roman. And as always, in these death scenes, we get multiple versions of it. You know, Antony injures himself, but he dies slowly and painfully. In Shakespeare's play, he has to be lifted on a hoist so that he can say goodbye to Cleopatra. But however it happened in terms of conversation between Antony and Cleopatra, his death is the end of it in terms of the Civil War. Once Antony's gone, Octavian is the master of the universe. He still has a Cleopatra problem, but that's a small problem. It's a small problem, and that's a story for another day. I mean, Geoff, this has been absolutely fascinating and fantastic. Now, perhaps, as you mentioned right at the start of our first

episode, Mark Antony is a name that we all know and have opinions of. Thanks to Shakespeare and Plutarch and others, perhaps he's best known for his affair with Cleopatra. But on a last note, are there any other key legacies of this man that you'd really like to highlight that we should remember this figure for alongside his affair with Cleopatra? from Antony is the way in which he embodies many of the strengths and virtues of the Roman Republic. There are many things about the Roman Republic that I admire. I admire the courage and the devotion, the confidence, the ambition, and Antony embodies those. But he also embodies many of the failures of the Roman Republic, the arrogance, the contempt for constitutional process, the willingness to be fierce rather than cooperative. And these are many of the things I think brought this political system, which lasted a long time, to an end. Antony, perhaps because we see so much of him, I think conveys these very different kinds of cultural dynamics in one guy.

Jeff, this has been awesome. Last but certainly not least, you have written a book talking through the life and times of Mark Antony, and it is called? It's called A Noble Roman, Mark Antony, Civil War, and the Collapse of the Roman Republic. It's a very long title. It is kind of a long book. Long title and a long book for a long life indeed. So huge sigh of relief.

We've made it to the end of this mega podcast episode. Geoff, it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast. Thank you for talking with me. Well, there you go. There was Professor Jeff Tatum talking through the rest of the story of Mark Antony. I hope you've enjoyed this special two-parter of episodes with Jeff exploring the life of Marcus Antonius and why he is one of the most extraordinary Roman statesmen and generals from antiquity. Last thing from me, wherever you're listening to the podcast, whether that be on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify or elsewhere,

make sure that you are subscribed, that you are following The Ancient so that you don't miss out when we release new episodes twice every week. But that's enough from me and I will see you in the next episode.