The Ancients - The Kings of Rome

Episode Date: January 12, 2023

This episode contains references to sexual assault and suicide.When you think of Ancient Rome, you don't often associate it with the idea of a Monarchy. But long before the likes of Julius Caesar, Augustus, or even Nero - Kings ruled over the land. Specifically - seven of them. But what happened to these Kings of Rome, and why aren't they immortalised in history the same way as their Emperor successors?In this episode of The Ancients, Tristan is joined by fellow Podcast hosts and authors Dr Peta Greenfield and Dr Fiona Radford, to take us through this mysterious part of Ancient History. Looking at the key figures and myths who defined this period of Ancient Rome - what really happened to the Kings of Rome?For more Ancients content, subscribe to our Ancients newsletter here. If you'd like to learn even more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today!

Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and, well, we're going back hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years deep into Rome's distant past,

into the ancient history of Rome, because we're going back pre-Roman Empire, we're going back pre-Republican Rome, we're going back to the quite mysterious, quite murky regal period of ancient Rome, a time of seven kings traditionally, although as you're going to hear in today's episode you might be able to throw one or two more names to that traditional king list of Roman monarchs. Now to talk through this incredible part of Rome's distant past, I was delighted to interview just just before Christmas, two complete legends who dialed in from down under. I am of course talking about Dr Peter Greenfield and Dr Fiona Radford, the hosts of the Partial Historians Ancient History podcast. Those names may well ring

a bell. Both Fiona and Peter appeared on the Ancients podcast in its very early stages. I interviewed both of them in 2020. Peter on the Vestal Virgins, Fiona on Spartacus. And yes, the latter's episode we did re-release just after Christmas 2022. And so in today's episode, Peter and Fiona, they're back to talk through their much-loved topic, that is, the ancient history. And I think it's fair to say also some of the more fantastical stories associated with these figures from Rome's really, really ancient past.

So sit down, relax. Here's Fiona and here's Peter. Peter, Fiona, it is great to have you both back on the podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having us. You're more than welcome because it has been too long. Peter, yourself on the Vestal Virgins, Fiona on Spartacus. And it's wonderful to be back in contact with you guys down under about your latest escapade alongside your brilliant podcast, The Partial Historians. The Kings of Rome, I mean, the regal period, you guys have dedicated so much time to this period

of Roman history. And is it fair to say, first of all, whichever you want to answer this, go wild. This period in Roman history goes so far back. Does it feel overshadowed compared to the other periods of Roman history? I think so, definitely. Most people that I talk to that haven't got a background in ancient history, they're sometimes unaware that Rome even had a period where they had kings. Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it? Because when you say kings, people immediately are like, oh, you mean the emperors? And you're like, no, no, no.

No, I don't. You'd be surprised how much I don't mean the emperors right now. They're like, what do you mean? And you're like, there's this whole other thing. And their touchstones in popular understanding are really like Julius Caesar and the Julio Claudians after them. And maybe if they're keen, they're kind of like, you know, Vespasian was all right. You know, something happened there. And you're like, cool. They're like Trajan. And you're like, yes, yes. But none of them were kings. There we go. Vespasian was right. I think we'll

have to quote you on that straight away. Just to set the scene in time regards time period in ancient Roman history, huge time period. This is hundreds of years, the topic today, before the likes of Julius Caesar were even a thing. Yeah, we're talking about 753 BCE, if we're going to use the official dating, to about 509 BCE. Very precise. You know, a bit suspicious at how precise it is. But yeah, that's officially when we're talking about. We suspect it probably goes back a lot earlier than that even.

But yeah, it gives you some rough idea about when we're talking about. And Peter, so what sorts of sources do we have available to try and learn more about this distant period in Roman history to tell this story? Yeah, it's really interesting for the Romans and the Greeks because both end up being quite interested in this period. And the Greeks in particular end up being super interested in the Romans because eventually they're like, these people are everywhere and it's a bit of a problem for us and we need to understand them. And so you've got people like Dionysius of Halicarnassus, who's writing in the first century BCE, and he's super interested and he goes right back to the Kings. He's like, let's go back to the beginning of Rome. It's the Kings. Everyone's like, but also likewise, you've got people like Plutarch later on, late first, early second century CE, and he's sort of leveraging off Roman writers and Greek writers.

But then you've got Latin writers as well. So we've got Livy, who's kind of writing about the same time as Dionysius of Halicarnassus, and they seem to share similar source material. Also, Cicero ends up being quite a useful sort of insight into that early period as well. He's interested in like, what does good governance look like in Rome? And for him, that means looking back. And there are a few other writers in there, but like, they're probably the main ones that really help us out, I would say. really help us out, I would say. Do we know, therefore, who these late Republican, early Roman imperial writers were using as their own sources to go this far back in history?

They rely on a variety of sources, we think. I mean, unfortunately, as you would know, it's not a usual practice for Roman and Greek historians at this time to necessarily cite their sources explicitly the whole way through. They'd be like, what's a footnote? I have no idea. But they do occasionally refer to these earlier writers. So there are earlier analysts who, unfortunately, we have very little of. There are fragments that are preserved here and there that we have. Some of them were writing actually not that much before Livy and Dionysius were writing. So we're talking about, you know, maybe 50 to 100 years, but some of them are writing a

couple of hundred years before they were writing. So they did have those sources to use, but they were probably also relying on things like the fasti, so the lists of consuls. They were probably relying on inscriptions on the basis of statues. And then, of course, my favorite source that they probably would have been using is the fact that Roman families, you know, it's very godfather-like in the way that they have to promote themselves and their reputation. And so they would have had records of their family history and they would have constantly been bragging about it whenever they could. So probably a combination of all these sorts of things were the types of sources that our historians were relying upon. And I think in

addition to that, we've got this strain, which is really difficult to trace, I think, in terms of the physicality, which is things like oral histories. So the family tradition comes into that most definitely. And you get those sort of overblown stories of being like, look at how all of my ancestors were and how fabulous they were. And obviously over time, those stories sort of take on a life of their own. But there seems to be an oral history component beyond those aristocratic stories as well. And it's obviously hard to pin down. There's not a lot of physical evidence for something like that. But the shape that stories tend to take over time when they're repeated over and over and the kind of themes that emerge from those kinds of stories as well start to hint towards a really strong oral tradition that eventually shifts into a written tradition, which is

where we see a lot of fascinating stories come through for the kings. Well, I mean, keeping on that, therefore, I'd love to get both your opinions on this. Given the evident biases of the literary sources that you no doubt have for looking at this period and, you know, that nature of different literary material, when approaching this topic, how difficult is it to sort facts from fiction about these kings of very ancient Rome? Practically impossible, I would say. We've kind of taken the point of view that we're running with the versions that we have,

like we'll flag stuff when we can and try and separate things out. But we also think that there's some value in looking at the fact that these stories have been preserved in this particular way and what that says about the Romans themselves you know what they think is important you know five six hundred years later this is what they're choosing to talk about with their earlier history so we're kind of running with it because we know that we can't really separate them out entirely. There's occasions where there's like, you know, a building that has some remains where you can be like,

oh my God, that building really did exist. But those sorts of moments seem to be rare. Yeah, you kind of want those moments where things a little bit have an overlap and it doesn't happen very often for this period. So there is archaeology from this early period, but we don't have a lot of it. As you can appreciate, it's pretty far down in the layers and Rome is a living city. So it's even harder to get to than the later imperial stuff. So we don't know as much about it as we would like, but when it's there, that's useful and good. And we certainly will bring that into the conversation.

Other things that we have sort of fragments of are like the fasti, which is like, you know, these consular lists and also things like the annales maximi, which are kept by the pontificates. And so they're recording some sort of landmark events as well. And when we have fragments of those, you might be able to bring that in as well. But it's all very tricky and hazy. And I think as a historian, we'd have to say we have a very low sense of confidence about what our source material is telling us. I'm glad we've set the base there because now we can delve into so many of these incredible stories that have become associated with these kings that evidently are important to these later Greco-Roman writers.

A theme that I think will be coming to time and time again through this episode is how prominent a role women played in many of these stories surrounding certain kings. Wasn't there, Fiona? Yeah, absolutely. It's kind of fascinating when we look at it because both of us, we special specialized in the late Republic and early empire. And so when we started looking at this period for the podcast, we actually weren't super familiar with all of the stories, but the more that we looked at it,

the more we realized, oh my God, of course, women are a bit more prominent in this time period because it's about families and it's about you know those people who are prominent as a family and so women are able to be a little bit more present at the forefront I suppose just like you get when you get to the Julia Claudians and that kind of thing and you see women like Livia and Julia and how they play a bit more of a prominent role and when you get to the Republic as we now, they do fade massively into the background. Like every now and then you get one who comes out, but generally speaking, yeah, women play a much more prominent role, whether it's as a mother, whether it's as a wife,

whether it's as a daughter, we see them springing up time and time again, all throughout this regal period, which is really fascinating to consider when you look at Livy and Dionysius and the fact that they're writing at this time when women are starting to become a bit more prominent again, as certain men are really taking center stage and taking more power, you know, than individual men have for some time. Going on a quick tangent there, from what you just said, Fiona, and to Peter as well, especially, you mentioned, of course, how you have your own podcast the partial historians and what I loved about that what I can relate to very much is the fact that you know you might have been focusing on other periods of ancient history

beforehand but during the podcast and focusing on these different areas it makes you discover these other figures in ancient history doesn't it and that sends you down another rabbit hole and then you find them fascinating and then you've written a book at the end of it it's one of the joys of 21st century history media is the podcast world isn't it because therefore i guess it's a stepping stone for research which then can culminate and you're just falling in love in this with another period from ancient roman history yeah i, I think so. I mean, basically, one of the things I've realized when looking at podcasts and looking at podcasting as a form of history is that when you start doing a podcast, particularly one like ours, where it's a narrative,

you don't always know where the story is going to end or like what twists and turns you're going to take along the way, because we've been doing the podcast for 10 years now. And we're not that far into Rome's history, you'd expect us to be a lot further. But certainly, because we've been doing the podcast for 10 years now, and we're not that far into Rome's history. You'd expect us to be a lot further. But certainly, because we don't specialise in this period, we don't really know what lies ahead at the moment. We're just telling the story in bits and pieces as we go. And so it's really nice to actually be able to pause and write a book on a period that we've covered, because it allows us to kind of stop, recap and reflect on what we've been talking about. And I think there's something to be said for the way that when you

study history formally, you end up having to specialise. And so nobody ends up being able to be a generalist. It gets more narrow and more focused the further you get into it. And so that means that even though you might have done some really broad sort of studies initially, eventually you're kind of honing in on something that's really minute. And it's like, my specialty is like a really like 150 year period, which is nowhere near the period that we're looking at when we're thinking about the Kings. And so to have the time and the space to actually sit with source material and thoroughly absorb it and really think about every paragraph before you get into a moment where you're like, let's break down that material. I feel like, you know, Dionysius of Halicarnassus and I are a little bit like good

friends now. And Fiona probably doesn't agree, probably thinks he's a little bit boring. But, you know, maybe he's the source for me. Livy is definitely number one. I mean, come on then, so who is Dionysius of Halicarnassus? He's this incredible figure. He's Greek, obviously, from Halicarnassus. But he becomes very interested in Rome, and he ends up spending some time there. And part of his interest is really, I think he embraces this idea of translation in a way. He wants to make Rome accessible to an educated Greek person. And he's willing to go the extra mile to put in all of the details.

But he does have a bit of an ego. There is no doubt about that. Because any time he has the opportunity to incorporate a little bit of rhetoric and a bit of rhetorical flourish into one of the characters that he's bringing to the page, he leans in and he leans in hard because he wants you to understand that he understands the rhetorical arts. And he's actually quite good if you're paying attention. There you go. I'm glad we've set the scene. Some great background there, I think it's now time to delve into the kings themselves. I mean, Fiona, to set the scene with the whole regal period, how many kings do we know

of and who are these figures quickly? Officially, I think most people would tell you that there are seven kings of Rome, but I know Dr. G is going to roll her eyes and say that there are eight. So I'll say eight. No, no, I'm going to go even further. I'm going to say that there are eight. So I'll say eight. No, no, I'm going to go even further. I'm going to say that there are nine kings of Rome, at least. Oh, okay. I'm glad you're bringing this on me now, right before the book release. I've had a revelation. I think Remus also counts as a king. Right. Okay. Okay. Interesting. Interesting. Well, Fiona, okay, you tell us the seven traditional ones, and then Peter, tell us these two extra ones, Remus included, which also make the list. Okay, well, probably everybody's heard of the first king of Rome, the first official

one, and that is, of course, Romulus. Even if you're not aware that Rome had kings, most people have heard of Romulus before from the famous Romulus and Remus myth. And then we have Numa, one of Dr. G's favorites because he has a lot to do with the vessels. And I'm sure we'll get to that in a second. Then we have Tullus Hostilius, who is as aggressive as his name sounds. It's not an accident. Then we have Ancus Marcius. Then we have Lucius Priscus. And then we have Servius, who's one of my special favorites. And then, of course, we've got Superbus to finish it all off with.

Those are the seven traditional ones. Peter, who are these extra two? You've mentioned one, but who's the other then figure who you would add to the list? So I don't think we can have a full list of kings without Titus Tatius, and he gets overlooked all the time poor man but he is strictly speaking a co-ruler of Rome with Romulus so Romulus does some terrible terrible things in his time I don't want to gloss over the fact that Romulus is born of a Vestal Virgin. So there is that. But he also goes to found the city of Rome with his twin brother Remus.

And they're right there. They're both doing their thing. They're like, we can do this together. And it's the moment where they decide like where they're actually going to have that foundation moment, pivotively, geographically, that they disagree fundamentally.

And the signs are working in remus's favor some accounts suggest that romulus lies about the sign that he sees so that he beats remus in that and ultimately remus ends up dead because the brothers fight and it does not go well but you could suggest that in this pivotal moment of foundation, the disagreement between the two brothers, there is a foundation that happens with each of them. And that that's a co, I see Fiona is smirking, be like, I disagree. Let me have my theory. Wait for it. You know, there is that instant moment of foundation where they're both kings. And realistically, Remus might be the legitimate king and Romulus the illegitimate king.

But Romulus wins the fight. So come on, Fiona. Refute it. Refute it. Look, I mean, Dr. G, where do I begin? I mean, first of all, we know that there are so many different versions of the story of Romulus and Remus, and it doesn't always go the way that you have just told it I don't know I kind of see the kingship as being something that Romulus introduces once he has managed to kill off his

rival and he's actually you know setting up this city according to his evil plan but but hey that's just me i love it i love it i'm glad we agree that he's evil though yeah phew let's keep on romulus and you also mentioned that other figure titus tatius so i think we can do a few stories about romulus let's talk about the story of titus tatius first of all because i never heard of this guy before but from from what you're saying, he co-rules Rome at some point, according to the story. So what is this story of how he also takes charge of Rome? So to understand where Titus Tatius comes into this, we need to think about how Rome is kind of set up initially under Romulus's rule. And he sets up this place of asylum. So he says to people of the area, if you've been outcast, if you don't have a place to be, this is a place that will accept you and nourish you,

and you can make a new home here. And this leads to a lot of sort of disaffected young men winding up in Rome. So it's a bit of a boys club initially, and Romulus is the head boy, if you like. And this means that there's a point where they're like how are we gonna leave a real legacy of this place we need to think about that and they were like it's a shame that there's no women around here but it's a bit of a boys club so maybe that explains it but the way that they go about sort of trying to attract some women to the city really falls flat because they basically send out some emissaries to their neighbors being like maybe if you bring some

of your women over we'll give you some of our men in return and it'll be a great exchange for everybody and the neighbors are kind of like but you've just got the guys that we didn't want in our cities in your city why would we want them back and also trade our daughters for them? That seems like a bit of a dud deal. So they refuse that, fair enough. And the Romans aren't happy. And they're like, well, what do we do now? And they set up a set of games where they're like, we'll invite you all. And games are really important because they're to celebrate gods. They're a special occasion and rules of hospitality are really important. You welcome people in, you give them food, you do ceremony together and everybody

is supposed to return home safe. But the Romans' plan is to abduct some women. And they do that. And it's bad. And it works. And this means that all of their neighbors now really hate them, works. And this means that all of their neighbors now really hate them, including the Sabines. And the Sabines are led by Titus Tatius. So he is the king of the Sabines in according apocryphally. And eventually he is the only neighbor that is quite successful in open combat with the Romans about this issue. And it gets into such a sort of frenzied state that the Sabine women who have been captured and are now living in Rome get together and they stand in the battlefield between their brothers and their new husbands. And they're like, just kill us, make this stop. It's not worth it. And all of the men realize that they need to get their acts together. And a peace is made. And this peace involves Titus Tatius coming in to co-rule with Romulus.

And he does this for quite a few years, as far as the narrative sources seem to suggest. And spoiler, Titus Tatius is eventually bumped off. But there is a period of co-rule in this very early period of Rome's foundation. Romulus doesn't play well with others. Evidently not. We've just learned this. This guy's got some terrible issues in the legendary sources. But that's so interesting because you always think there are seven legendary kings of Rome.

And yet this guy, he seems from all the sources, he's overlooked, he's glossed over, even though it seems like it's definitely mentioned that for a considerable period of time he did rule rome yeah and all of our narrative sources that we've got for this period do mention him so it's not like he's a secret and it's interesting that he gets left off the list i don't know when that list was created that sort of gives us that seven as the magic number but titus tatius should be on it for sure well there you go i mean before we go on to numa and then fiona's favorites that some of these later kings i'd just like to ask one more question about one particular woman who you corrected me about before we started recording about who this person was because i wasn't exactly sure but she does seem to relate

to this story and this is the figure of tarpeia, who seems very, very interesting. Who among you, go wild, would like to explain the story of Tarpeia? I would love to explain the story of Tarpeia. So Tarpeia, she comes up in Romulus's rule. And the stories differ and depends on which source you look at. Her background differs depending. Some sources position her as the daughter of a Sabine commander, others as the daughter of a Roman commander. Some, Propertius claims that she might be a Vestal Virgin. So that creates another sort of link for me personally. But Tarpeia is apparently involved in this like sort of pivotal moment where the sabines and the romans are facing off with each other prior to titus tatius coming in as co-ruler so

it's this really tense moment between the sabines and the romans and it's not clear who's going to come out on top here and tarpeia sees titus tatius and is apparently like oh that man doesn't have his shirt on he's quite attractive actually women i'm just telling you what the sources tell me and she sees the sabines and the story seems to be either that she's inviting them in because she finds titus tatius quite attractive and she's willing to put everything on the line to have an opportunity with him. Or it's part of a ploy to get the Romans or the Sabines in the wrong position in relation to the citadel where she resides, which is we're not sure which hill. But she comes down the hill and she invites them in. we're not sure which hill but she comes down the hill and she invites them in and she sort of says I'm really interested in you know your shields and your bucklers and your jewelry and all of this

kind of thing hoping that they will put down their defenses and enter into the citadel hopefully so that they can be slaughtered instead they accept her invitation and then crush her to death as they commence with their invasion. So Tarpeia doesn't end up in a good position in all of this. And she's seen as either somebody who's trying to betray Rome and fails or somebody who's been quite strategic but also fails. And we're really not quite sure. It depends on which source. It's really hard to say what that story might actually be about.

There you go. You kind of hinted like it would Greek myths, you know, or it depends on which source. It's really hard to say what that story might actually be about. Wow. There you go. You kind of hinted like it would greet most, you know, the multiple different versions of some stories and how they differ. I mean, quick tangent, if I'm completely wrong, I'm completely wrong. Does she have the incredible legacy of having a rock named after her? There's actually a Tarpeian rock, I believe, in the Blue Mountains in New South wales as well so special connection

for us too some would suggest so better have an image of that in the book there we go let's keep moving on i think i have to keep on you peter because of course numa regards the second king this is your favorite first of all peter explain who was numa why do you find this king of all, Peter, explain, who was Numa? Why do you find this king of all the kings so fascinating? What's the connection for you? For me, I think it's partly because we get a sense that the way that Rome does monarchy is quite unusual. Like we tend to think of monarchy as a hereditary thing, really well established through one particular family line.

The Romans don't do monarchy this way at all. They get to the end of Romulus's life and they're not sure what to do. They're like, right, who's next? It turns out that Romulus doesn't have an heir. So the idea of having a dynasty is immediately off the table. And so they're starting to look around for like, who would be the best candidate? Who would be the best person to do the job? And they're really quite unsure. They spend a lot of time thinking about this and not coming to any decision. And ultimately they decide upon Numa. And one of the things that's super unusual about him is that he's not from Rome. And we don't necessarily expect everybody to be from Rome at this period because it's quite small. It's just

started. But he is a Sabine, which almost is like a bit of a slap in the face considering relations so far between these two peoples. And yet he's considered the best candidate. And it might be that he is married to Titus Tatius's daughter. That might be the connection, but it also might be a more apocryphal kind of story because Romulus is set up as a very sort of militaristic macho figure. It's like, it's the boys club. It's the asylum thing. It's going out and doing battle. And Numa is really positioned as a philosopher king, a deep thinker, somebody who's very interested in making sure that the relationship with the gods is in the right sort of fashion. And so he forms a really nice sort of, if we're thinking about oral history,

is a really nice sort of balancing counterpart to the work that Romulus has done to make the city exist. And now they have to have, you know, a reason to be that's not just about sort of fighting and getting into scrapes and things like that. And that's something that Numa really brings to the table, a deep-thinking, philosophical, divine outlook. And who is this supposed great influence on Numa and his deep-thinking, philosophical outlook?

Ah, a goddess, as it happens. Numa is reported to be wandering in the forests by night, taking advice from a woman, divine goddess, figure, nymph, Egeria. And is this a device to just legitimize his ways of doing things? Being like, it came to me from the gods. Or, you know, is he somehow a little bit touched in the head? Being like, yeah, you know, he somehow a little bit touched in the head i mean like yeah you know i've got friends we're not really sure but it's kind of a beautiful sort of connection to the divine

that this story brings where it's like it's not just about numa being philosophical himself he actually does have genuine relationships with divine beings that inform his practice and the way that he does things. And although you've mentioned, you know, potential Vestal Virgins in the legendary reign of Romulus beforehand, what's this link between Numa and the Vestal Virgins? Yeah, it's interesting. And this is where, like everything with the real period, everything's hazy as well, because we know that cults to Vesta existed prior to the foundation of Rome, for instance, and there's a good connection with the Greek Hestia. And yet Romulus is apparently born of

a Vestal virgin, but doesn't necessarily seem to be credited with setting up a cult to Vesta in Rome, which would be weird. And then we've got Numa and he apparently does set one up. And so it's kind of like trying to harmonize like these sort of foundational things. It's almost like Romulus and Numa have to be one king altogether, the two of them, in order to produce a Rome that really truly functions. Right. Okay. So Romulus is portrayed legendarily as this more militaristic person,

neomophilosophical. Them combined is almost like the ultimate Roman leader, which is envisaged later on. So that's so interesting. Hi there, I'm Don Wildman, the host of the brand new podcast, American History Hit. Join me twice a week as I explore the past to help us understand the United States today. You'll hear how codebreakers uncovered secret Japanese plans for the Battle of Midway, visit Chief Poetin as he prepares for war with the British, see Walt Disney accuse his former colleagues of being communists, and uncover the hidden history that lies beneath Central Park.

From pre-colonial America to independence, slavery to civil rights, the gold rush to the space race, I'll be speaking to leading experts to delve into America's past. New episodes dropping every Monday and Thursday. So join me on American History Hit, a podcast by History Hit. How do we go from Numa to your big man, big dog, the one, the only, the legendary Lucius Priscus? Oh, actually, I would go to Tullus Hostilius quickly first. To bounce off what Dr. G has been explaining, I think you can round off what she's saying about how Romulus is really warlike. And then we've got Numa being quite philosophical because the Romans

then apparently go back to someone who's really aggressive and warlike with Tullus Hostilius, as the name would suggest. And so you can kind of see that, particularly with these early kings, they're probably the more mythical characters. As we go further down the track, it's possible that they become actually a bit more based on historical reality. But during this early period, it seems like they are somewhat crafting the characters as we go. And so with Tullus Vestilius,

we just go back to someone who's really known for waging war and conquest and that sort of thing. I thought I'd just add him in there because yeah, he's a good way of coming back to that idea that Dr. G was explaining. Brilliant. Okay, so he seems to go on a rampage to this Vestilius and back to that kind of Romulus model.

I mean, who therefore follows him Fiona when do we get to your favorites well actually there's a couple of kings so Tullus Faustilius and Ancus Marcius they very rarely get much airtime because they are these kings that we have ridiculously brief records for there doesn't seem to be quite the big showpiece moments in their reigns as there are for some of the other kings like they have their things they have the things that set them apart like Tullus Astelius is really known for this particularly epic battle between two sets of triplets which happens. Sounds like a kindergarten fight or something like that. Yeah I know I know what are the odds right it's fantastic the way it's described it's literally that you know there's a war going on between the Romans and the

Albans and rather than you know decimate each war going on between the Romans and the Albans and rather than you know decimate each other they end up deciding that they're going to have one set of triplets from the Romans and one set of triplets from the Albans who may or may not be related to each other it depends which version you go with they might be related who knows but they're going to you know fight on behalf of their cities and as it plays out one by one they're killed off until finally there's only one Roman standing and you'd think this would be a moment of incredible victory for him but unfortunately for him as he is going back you know cloaked in glory and I mean quite, because he has stolen stuff from the people that he's killed. So he's literally wearing his victory. His sister is waiting to see

what had happened and how it all turned out. And it turns out she was engaged to one of the guys that he has killed. And so she starts performing her grief. So, you know, probably rending her garments, you know, tearing at her hair, that kind of thing. And he is appalled that she could behave in such a way. And so he kills her right on the spot. And he says, so perish every woman who should mourn an enemy of Rome. And then instead of being able to enjoy this incredible moment of triumph, he has to stand trial for the murder of, well, it's not really for the murder of his sister. It's a little bit more complicated than that.

It's a whole bunch of things, but he has to obviously go through a criminal process to deal with the fact that he's just randomly murdered his sister. And so that tends to be the moment that most people know about from the reign of Tullus Hostilia. So it's not a huge amount to do with Tullus himself,

but other people but once again this seems like a theme that we will continue to go to throughout this chat what we got left of it family members female family members infamous stories related to them especially as we get later and later and later on does this very much also take center stage when we get past Ancus Marcius and past Servius Vestilius and we get to Lucius Priscus? Yes, definitely. So Lucius Priscus is definitely associated with a particularly fascinating woman, and that is Tanaquil. But I'm going to let Dr. G do a bit of the background. She does the early life of Tanaquil. I do the later. Okay. Peter, so tell us about early Tanaquil. Early Tanaquil. Well, I think to start, we need to sort of place Lucius and Fiona has held off

on the Tarquinius here, but this is going to be important. His full name is Lucius Tarquinius Priscus, and that has been Latinized. This guy is actually from Tarquinii, which is an Etruscan city. So his real name is Lucamo, which I love, and I love to call him Lucamo. And there is a theory that Lucamo also has a Greek background as well as being a little bit Etruscan. And he marries Tanaquil, and she is of an elite Etruscan family, which is great. But it's not enough to get Lucamo across the line to be involved in Etruscan politics himself. They consider him to be a little bit too foreign for their tastes. And even though he's quite wealthy, and he's inherited a lot of cash accidentally,

you'd have to read the book to find out why that's so weird, but he's quite rich and he's trying to buy his way into Etruscan politics and they just won't let him in. And Tanaquil, she is quite ambitious and so is he. And they're like, we need to get out of here. We need to go somewhere where we can actually fulfill our ambitions and live the lives that we deserve to live. And it's not going to happen here. We're just going to be stifled if we stay in Tarquiniae. And they're like, Rome's the place to go. You know, that's

the place for ambitious people who want to get their gear going on. And, you know, they're welcoming of anybody. It's a place of asylum let's do it and so they head there and lucamo is so rich that he's already more wealthy than he's legally allowed in rome and so this means that he gets to meet the king quite quickly but before that moment happens they're on the brink of entering the city and they're there on the Janiculum Hill and they're kind of like this is the moment where they can look out over the city they've still got to cross the river they're nearly there and all of a sudden this eagle comes out of the sky swoops down grabs Lucamo's hat off his head and flies away and everyone's like and, and Tanukul is like, oh my God. And then

before you can even go any further, the eagle flies back down, swoops back down and deposits his cap back on his head. And everyone's like, oh boy, this is really interesting. Like what has just happened here? And it turns out that Tanukul as an Etruscan woman has been trained in the arts of reading the signs. So she is able to see this for what it is. This is a huge sign, the sense of the eagle, the idea of the cat being taken off and then replaced. She's like, you are going to be a king. All you need to do is do your best to build connections, set everything up so people see you as kind, benevolent, you know, work your charisma as much as possible. You have amazing things ahead of you. And so Tanukul and Lukamo together are kind of like this sort of like power couple that

read the signs and do the things and are ambitious together. And it's like, this is a match that is really well made for them it's like they really complement each other and that's going to continue on once they get into rome and lucamo changes his name to lucius and goes from there lucamo lucamo lucamo where art thou lucamo there you go wow and i guess also the fact that a tannicle is an etruscan woman i love that etruscan link and you always get those stereotypes associated with the Etruscans from the Romans. So that being able to read the signs seems another one of those and more as we'll get into, no doubt. As Priscus's reign develops, therefore, with Taniquil by his side, let's go to late Taniquil

now then, Fiona. She still remains incredibly prominent and important. She does. It seems like Priscus, Lucamo, whatever you want to call him, really takes her advice. You know, he continues to value, I think, her input. And as you say, there are certain stereotypes about the Etruscans. There's this popular idea that obviously women were somehow more prominent or on more of an equal footing in Etruscan society than you see in most ancient civilizations. And there's maybe some truth to that, you know, based on the limited evidence that we have, it is possible that there was a little bit more of that happening. But yes, it seems interesting that that is a detail that has been preserved all the way down into the time that people like Livia and Dionysius are writing, that they've chosen to preserve her special relationship with her husband, you know, once he becomes king and that sort of thing.

So that, I think, is an interesting detail, especially if we consider Augustus and Livia and the way that they're a power couple, which I know Dr. G loves. So I'm just going to throw that in there because Augustus is her favorite problematic favorite yeah problematic favorite yeah but certainly Tanaquil really comes to the fore again I think most notably upon the death of her husband which is obviously sad for her but absolutely fascinating for us so basically Priscus has an interesting end, to say the least. He cops an axe to the head by some people who felt like they've been done out of their fair deal. So Ancus Marcius, the king before Priscus. Priscus and he had become very close, but Priscus had been the one that became king after Ancus Marcius. Now, as Dr. G has said, there is no set rule that sons automatically inherit

in Rome. So just because Ancus Marcius was king doesn't mean that his sons would also be king one day. But they seem to have felt that that should have been what happened. And so they managed to orchestrate an assassination of Priscus through an axe to the head. to orchestrate an assassination of Priscus through an axe to the head. So it's pretty damaging, but Tanaquil is really quick on her feet. And she has Priscus taken inside the royal residence and sort of hidden away from view. And when people are like, oh my God, how is Priscus feeling? Like, how's your head? She's like, haven't had any complaints. It's fine. Like, oh good guys, he's going to recover.

Like, it's going to be fine. She's covering, she's covering. She's madly trying to get a succession plan into place. Because, and this is where we meet our next king. There's so many kings happening in this story. She really wants Servius to become the next king of Rome. He is her choice. And she wants to make sure that he's going to be the one, so she's trying to put him into place. Now, he's an unusual choice,

because as far as we can tell, Servius seems to have been a slave in his youth. We're not entirely sure how this plays out, because it seems like our writers may have tried to elevate his background to make it sound like oh yeah look he was totally from like an elite family and they just happened to be unlucky enough to be captured during war you know them's the breaks and so they try and give him this pedigree but he certainly was a slave of sorts at some point so he's an unusual person for her to kind of maneuver into power but once again she had witnessed when he was a slave of sorts at some point so he's an unusual person for her to kind of maneuver into power but once again she had witnessed when he was a boy he'd been brought into the palace along with his mother because apparently they had this you know rarefied

background when they were captured or something like that and when he was a boy there were signs that he was going to be something special and Tanaquil is sometimes associated with those stories as well. So there's a story of the sleeping boy, Servius, totally conked out somewhere. And as he is sleeping, like a ring of fire suddenly appears around his head. And people as they're walking by, so like there's something unusual, you don't generally see a slave with his head on fire whilst he's having a nap. And so again, this is sort of seen as a sign that he's destined for something. So Tanukul wants to make sure that he is maneuvered into power, and she's successful in doing this. He does indeed become the next king of Rome. So it's really fascinating to see her playing that sort of a role. And you kind of see the way that the

story has been constructed, at least in our later sources. There are some odd similarities between how Tanakul behaves and how people like Livia and Agrippina the Younger behave when they are orchestrating successions. So there are some interesting parallels in the way that they are all constructed as playing these particular roles at these moments of crisis. How interesting. We don't want to talk about every story because you have all of these stories in your book anyway, and so many more. We're just scratching the surface. But Servius Tullius becomes king,

murdered by his daughter, who then drives over his father's corpse. That's mad. And one of you go wild as to how the kings of Rome come to an end. And Fiona, I think this is one for you, but kind of explain this whole story, maybe also on this Servius Tullius murder. Yes, absolutely. So basically we have a bit of an

interesting sitcom situation happening where we have Servius's daughter, Seria, just to be really confusing, married to the guy who's going to be the last king of Rome, okay, Tullius Superbus. Now that sort of relationship came about in a really weird way where basically originally she had been married to his brother who was like quite a shy retiring type and he'd been married to her sister who was also kind of like a shy retiring very proper type they didn't really like their partners they preferred each other so they bumped them off and they get married and then together they can start scheming to take power from her own father and Superbus does this when Servius is quite old because he rules for

quite a long time he's one of the more significant kings of Rome in that sense when he's quite an elderly man Superbus essentially stages a coup has his little cabal around him and you know takes control of things and when Servius comes in to confront him he physically lifts him up apparently and throws him down the steps of the building that they are meeting in so it's not great and tells him to you know go home so Servius is like injured he's like limping home and then assassins of course are sent to finish off the job. Servia is obviously a key player in all of this she comes across as a really horrible person she can't just sit at home while all this stuff is happening. So she decides she's going to take her carriage out for a spin. And while she is out driving and hailing her husband and being

like, hey, hubby, looking good, new king of Rome. I love it. This is exactly what we planned for. On her way home, this is apparently where she encounters the mangled body of her father. And when the carriage driver pauses and it's like hey isn't that your dad lying in the gutter there she's like drive on and they drive over his body and so the blood of her murdered father is on the wheels of her vehicle it's a pretty horrific scene oh rome what can you say what a place to be. Okay, Tarquinius Superbus on the throne. You mentioned he's the last king of Rome. So how does the regal period of Rome come tumbling down according to the legendary story? Well, look, Superbus doesn't have a great reputation for

many reasons. I won't go into all of them. Really, the catalyst for his end is the famous story of Lucretia. So Lucretia is an elite aristocratic woman. And what ends up happening is that whilst there's a campaign waging, because Superbus is quite into the warfare and that sort of thing, one of his sons, unfortunately, maybe named Sextus, happens to conceive a bit of a thing for Lucretia when he meets her. And she's married to somebody else at this point in time. So she's definitely well off limits. But unfortunately, he conceives this thing for her. And so once he's seen her, decided he must have her, he waits until he can just sort of drop back. And it's just him and her and the slaves in the house, essentially, because her husband's away

campaigning and that sort of thing. And he waits till it's nighttime and everybody's asleep and he sneaks into her room and he's going to rape her. So this is a really horrible moment. But Lucretia is going to become one of the most famous Roman women of all time because of her incredible virtue. And so she doesn't submit. She says, no, absolutely not. Hands off. This is just for my husband. Thank you very much. And he says, well, I don't think you get the situation just for my husband. Thank you very much. And he says, well, I don't think you get the situation here. I'm in the position of power. If you refuse me, fine, I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to kill you. I'm going to kill a male slave. I'm going to put you in bed together. And because of the Roman standards of the day,

and the fact that these two are actually technically related, he said, I'll be a hero because I will have found you in bed with a male slave and I will have killed you for that. And you know, that's what we're supposed to do. You know, police your behavior. You weren't behaving correctly. So she reluctantly submits to having sex with Sextus. So she is raped and he thinks deed's done. He goes on his merry way thinking that he's got what he wanted. Okay. He's obviously just as horrible as his father. Anyway, Lucretia is not going to take this lying down. And so she summons her father, her husband, and they also bring along a friend, Brutus. And she makes this big declaration before them where she tells them exactly what happened. And they're all horrified.

And then she says, okay, I just wanted you to know what happened. Glad you believe me. But now I must take my own life. And they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. There's no need for that. You did not actually do anything wrong. Like mentally you were resisting the whole time just because your body's been violated. Doesn't mean that your mind has, you do not have to do this. And she says, no, I really do. Adultery is a really serious thing. I don't want any woman to use me as an excuse. And so she kills herself. Her menfolk are, of course, distraught. Brutus, however, who everyone thought was an idiot up until this point, because he'd been acting like a fool so that he wouldn't attract the attention of Superbus, because Brutus is, of course, part of this family group as well. It's all very incestuous.

Brutus ends up being like, right, that's family have gone too far we have to take them down this is just the last straw and so they end up taking Lucretia's body out into public view and using her body to incite the people to rebel against the Tarquin dynasty and they end up being successful in basically kicking them out and ousting them from power. So it was kind of all triggered by the rape of Lucretia. So again, we have a woman at the center of this moment of crisis and transition. Wow. Wow. Very well done there, Fiona. That was great storytelling. Take a breather. It's a very well-known, infamous story, isn't it? The taking down of the monarchy of very ancient

rome thank you we've gone through therefore we've gone through the seven eight or nine kings of rome today we talked about some brilliant stories these are just only a couple of stories you've talked about of course about so many more in your book and keeping on your book before we completely completely finish the interview i mean mean, having written the book, are there any key themes that either of you would like a reader to take away when reading about this very distant part of Rome's ancient history? I think there is a sense in which the Romans very much understand that power and the way that it manifests is really quite significant

for the way that society is structured and you can see the seeds of early republican Rome in all of this and it's like what are the values that the Romans are really going to hold on to and I think something like the story of Lucretia is really illuminating because it's setting up all of the kind of moral precepts that the Romans are really going to lean into when they think about how does their society look like in terms of acceptable behavior and that being a crisis point for them being like how far is one family allowed to go and it's really interesting that it does take them some time to figure out what a new social structure will look like. I mean, for people who are interested

in the Republican period of Rome, the early Republic, maybe just as hazy initially in the source material as the regal period, but also really revealing in terms of how they are trying to rethink who they might be. And obviously there's lots of problems with our source material in terms of how far back they are from that moment, looking into that past, trying to figure it out, but also really interesting in terms of thinking about what is power, how does it work, who's allowed to use it, how must it be distributed and how much could be condensed into the family structure and how much needs to be outside of it in order for society to work well as Rome grows? Yeah, I think definitely, as Dr. G has said, we're well aware of the problems of this period in terms of trying to separate out facts from

fiction. But what we realized is that the more that you actually just look at the stories and what they preserve, the more it can actually tell you about how Rome is using its history to think about its present and its future, which I think is what we all do with history. And that's why we kind of like it. It's a useful way to think, to think historically. And to look at the Romans doing this process, it's really nice. And it kind of highlights, I think, a lot about how we like to use history in many different realms and across many different topics. I mean, absolutely. And those parallels with later Roman history are absolutely fascinating that you mentioned during the interview. I mean, this has been absolutely

awesome. This has been brilliant. Last but certainly not least, tell me a bit about your book and then also tell me a bit about your decade long podcast. Oh, well, the book. I mean, if you're interested in more stories like this, oh boy, stay tuned because this book will be coming out and it can be all yours. 10 years of podcasting. Yeah, we're going to have to celebrate in a major way, I think. I think we've gotten better at reading the evidence over time. I mean, we were always professional historians, so that was never in question. But how you present information in a podcast, I think is very different to how you might present it in other formats. And so I always think that there's a real virtue in learning that presentation.

I think our podcasts, like our book, I mean, we kind of try to make the book something that was linked to our podcast in the sense that we've always tried to conceive of ourselves as people who have been trained as academics, but we don't work in the academic sphere. And we use our academic training to try and translate as much as we can into a popular medium that people will enjoy. And that's kind of what we try to do with the book. It's written as a popular history, but extensively footnoted. And we have done our research so that people, if they are interested in going into more depth about the issues that we're flagging as we go through these stories, they can. But if not, you can just enjoy the story and hopefully you enjoy the way that we tell it because we definitely try and keep it on a level that everyone can enjoy and hopefully have a bit of a laugh along

the way. That's the way that we do our podcast. Absolutely. We definitely got that sense in today's episode. And quickly, the book, do we have a title for the book or is it working title? The book is called at the moment? We do. It is called Rex. Short and sweet. Well, Fiona, Peter, this has been amazing, as mentioned. It just goes for me to say thank you so much to both of you coming back on the podcast today. Thank you so much. Thank you. A real pleasure. Well, there you go.

Well, there you go. There was Dr. Fiona Radford and Dr. Peter Greenfield talking through the mysterious but awesome, really cool regal period of ancient Rome, the kings of Rome, and those many other figures associated with the stories of these very ancient monarchs. I hope you enjoyed the episode as we kickstart 2023 on the ancients. This is only the beginning. We have got so many more episodes on topics that vary across the ancient world, from the Nazca Lines to the Great Serpent Mound, to, of course, much Mediterranean ancient history, to ancient Middle East and further afield, too.

Just you wait it's all coming to the ancients in the weeks and months ahead now last thing from me as i've said last year and i'm going to continue saying down into the new year if you're enjoying the podcast and want to help us out well you know what you can do you can leave us a lovely rating on apple podcast on spotify wherever you get your podcasts from we love to see them they are really really nice to see and also it helps us on our mission to share these incredible stories from our distant past and give the spotlight to these academics who've devoted so many years of their lives to researching these incredible parts of our ancient history where we can share their stories with as many people as possible. We can keep growing and growing the audience.

Your backing, your support really does help and make a difference with that. So if you're kind enough to leave us a rating, that would be much appreciated by us all. But that's enough from me and I will see you in the next episode.