The Ancients - The Nazca Lines

Episode Date: February 2, 2023

Carved into the Peruvian landscape over a millennia ago, the Nazca lines are some of the most famed, and ancient, geoglyphs in the world. When viewed from above they create astonishing, detailed images of animals that were sacred to the Nazca people. But despite being some of the most well known images of the ancient world, they're still shrouded in mystery. How were these immense images created, and more importantly, why?In this episode Tristan is joined by Dr Sara Morrisset, an archaeologist and historian, who specialises in these momentous creations. A fountain of knowledge on all things Nazca and Nasca, what can Sara tell us about the Lines? Looking at the hummingbird, spider, and monkey to name a few - just who is responsible for the Nazca lines, and why were they created?For more Ancients content, subscribe to our Ancients newsletter here. If you'd like to learn even more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today!

Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. It's The Entrance on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and in today's podcast, there's an absolute belter of an episode today and one I've been very much looking forward

to sharing with you all because we're going to South America to talk about, I think it's fair to say, the most famous, the most awesome set of ancient geoglyphs in the whole world. You might have heard the name because we are of course talking about the legendary, the mysterious Nazca Lines. I've never been in person to see the Nazca Lines in the desert, but just from seeing them on the internet alone and the various designs, they're stunning.

The hummingbird, the spider, the monkey, the killer whale, and so many other designs too. They are absolutely remarkable. I'm sure seeing them in person must be a completely different experience entirely seeing them from the air because they are just that next level. If you haven't seen them look them up now you won't be disappointed. A nice visual guide too for the episode today all about them what do we know about them who built them when why were they built and so on and so forth to explain all about this i was delighted to interview just over a month or so ago dr sarah morrisette sarah is an expert on the art of the ancient andes she's done a lot of work in peru particularly on the nearby Ica Valley but she also knows a lot about the

Nazca culture and the Nazca lines so it was such a pleasure to interview Sarah on this. What's also so fascinating about these lines is that you can see similarities between the designs the things that these people depicted on the lines and their pottery, their ceramics. For instance, you have an example of a killer whale being depicted as one of the Nazca lines, and you also have that killer whale being depicted in amazing pottery too. Why? Why a killer whale? Well, you're going to find out about the theories in today's episode. You're going to absolutely love it. So without further ado, to talk all about the Nazca Lines, here's Sarah. Sarah, wonderful to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for having me.

You're more than welcome. Dining in from sunny California on this cold, wintry evening over in London. I am slightly jealous. We are staying in the Americas for the topic today. One of the most incredible topics, I think, from the ancient world, the Nazca Lines. I mean, I'm completely 100% behind what I just said there. Because when you look at the Nazca Lines, these geoglyphs, just online, like just by typing them up, they're insane, the different patterns. I can only imagine how incredible it is to see them in person.

Absolutely. They're incredible. And I highly recommend seeing them in person if you can someday. Well, let's get into it. Background, first of all. So the Nazca, the Nazca culture, whereabouts in the Americas are we talking? Yes. So we're discussing modern day Peruvian South Coast, which is essentially the northern part of the Atacama Desert. And the Nazca themselves, they lived across what is now called the Ica River Valley and the Nazca drainage, which had eight river valleys within it. And I've been conducting excavations in the lower Ica Valley.

And my research focuses on the Ica society who are the direct descendants of the Nazca. And here's a good point to mention that Nazca with an S refers to the culture, while Nazca with a Z or a Zed often refers to the geographical region. I know sometimes that can be confusing, but there you go. That's the trick. Right. So it's not as if like one spelling is right and one spelling is wrong. They're both used for different purposes. Yes. Essentially, in a lot of research, you follow the S for the ancient culture and Z for different purposes. Yes, essentially in a lot of research you follow the S for the ancient culture and Z for the region. There we go, there we go, learning more all the time. Well

you mentioned your work on the Ica and we will get to that no doubt but with the Nazca culture when about are we talking with this culture? Yes, so the Nazca, we date to around 100 BCE to 650 CE. And kind of describe the Nazca culture, what the geography, what the topography looks like in southern Peru at that time. Are river valleys, are they right at the heart of this ancient culture? Yes. So river valleys are crucial to this culture. They lived along the river valleys. However, this is a very interesting part of the world because this area in the southern region of the drainage, especially the rivers, actually have low levels of above ground water flow. And instead, the Nazca largely relied on plentiful underground

sources of water. And the high levels of subsurface flow are due to the porous nature of the volcanic soils, as well as the topography of the region. So specifically, the rivers are blocked by a geological formation called the Tablazo de Ica, so that a natural dam develops and the rivers lose little water to the sea, resulting in large amounts underground. And so the water were crucial to the Nazca, who depended on agriculture in this region. So they developed this advanced irrigation strategy of vertical shafts and essentially unique forms of aqueducts called pukios to bring this water to the surface, which is just, you know, absolutely amazing in

this extremely arid environment. So they were able to produce very, very rich harvests, even in this desert environment. The underground water systems, parts of it still depended on rainfall from the highlands, though. And we know that periods of increased aridity and drought caused major issues for the Nazca. And you'll see that as a theme in their religious practices and rituals of the importance of water and, you know, appeasing to the natural forces to bring water and to maintain water for them. I mean, just to reiterate, because that is such a fascinating point that you've highlighted there, Sarah, this arid desert, dry environment, and yet the incredible sophistication, the technology of these ancient people to develop

these really advanced irrigation systems to live and to thrive. You see examples like in the Sahara Desert with the Garamantes who do something similar. So it's fascinating. You see in places across the world, don't you? We sometimes underestimate their sophistication, their ability to live and thrive in these more dry, arid areas of the world. Yes. And what's interesting about this part of the world is the alluvial sediments along the river are very fertile and the year-round sunshine allows for two to four harvests per year in the Ica Valley, for example. And large-scale agro-industry can be found all along the Ica Valley today. So if you look closely at your produce, your fruits and vegetables may come all the way from the Peruvian south coast

where the Nazca people used to live. But yet still, the Atacama desert is commonly called the driest desert in the world. And the arid condition has lasted for 10 to 15 million years. So it's a core desert. It's been dry for a very long time. It's a fascinating area. Absolutely. How mad indeed. Well, having set that topography background, therefore, and you've already highlighted the importance of agriculture and rivers to this ancient society. Do we know anything about how Nazca society was structured? Yes, yes. Before I move on, I should put a plug in for a very good friend of mine, David Beresford-Jones. He did research on the riparian woodlands. So there actually used to be parts, but there used to be woodlands that existed along the rivers as well in parts.

And it's a very interesting case study where actually we think the Nazca over-harvested a major keystone species tree in that area, and other complex factors led to deforestation and desertification in the river ecosystem, which began in the early part of the Middle Horizon around 600 CE. So that's another thing to consider is that there were some forests along these rivers, but now we don't see them today. But moving on to how the Nazca society was structured. So the social political structure of the early Nazca society has been highly debated for decades. So one of the foremost interpretations is that the Nazca society is a middle range society, was a middle range society, a type of chiefdom or confederacy organization, potentially coordinated by Coakie's pilgrimage sphere of influence,

which we'll talk about Coakie later, I'm sure, and rather than a state-level organization, is more of this middle-range society. And those that emphasize that the Nazca was a middle-range society stress that the settlements were mainly villages with little differentiation in terms of status and economic activities, and that Kowatchee was primarily a pilgrimage center rather than an urban center. However, new arguments propose that the Nazca may have been state-level, with a greater degree of centralization and social stratification, as well as settlement hierarchy than previously suspected. And by settlement hierarchy, I mean the presence of hamlets, villages, larger centers, and then also regional capital. And some even refer to the socio-political organization of the Nazca as a theocracy, since the Nazca people certainly shared numerous cultural traditions, including these repeated pilgrimage journeys to Kauachi with a

specific religious cult. So highly debated. But yes, there's been a lot of academic work on trying to figure out what exactly the Nazca society was like in terms of structure. Okay, Sarah, that's interesting. So there's still this huge debate going on. And you did mention the name a few times, Kauachi. You said we were going to go back and talk more about this. You are completely right, because take it away, what is Kauachi? So Kauachi is seen by many as a theocratic capital of the Nazca, especially by the archaeologist Orfici, who's been working there. And scholars have argued that Kauachi was an empty ceremonial center that was periodically inhabited during ritual pilgrimages to the site of Nazca people all across the Nazca drainage and even

Ika Valley. And there's definitely evidence of repeated ceremonial activity at Kawachi in terms of archaeological evidence, including feasting, large caches, ritual internment of the dead. And these ceremonies may have been orchestrated by socio-political elite or religious leaders. And new research by Bakir and others have suggested that there may have been year-round habitation, though. So, again, this debate continues. Some argue that perhaps the elite lived there alongside, you know, retainers year-round. And others have noted that centralization and decentralization can coexist in political systems.

So the debate continues. But Kauachi is a fascinating site with many temple mounds and ritual spaces that was definitely visited by many of the Nazca people on pilgrimage. So from the archaeology that's been done so far, does it seem that the urban layers of Kauachi is one where there does seem to be temples left, right and center? Is that the general idea at the moment? is one where there does seem to be temples left, right, and center. Is that the general idea at the moment? Yes. So the primary areas in Kauachi include the Great Temple, there's the Great Pyramid, there's a couple other larger structures, and around these structures are many plazas, multiple platforms. And beyond that, there's also at least 40 mounds associated with plazas

themselves that some have argued were constructed specifically by different social groups who came to pilgrimage on the site then built this mound and would revisit the specific mound. So it does seem to be a capital that has a focus on ritual and has a focus on these large ceremonial spaces. However, as mentioned though, there have been excavations that suggest there may be some areas of habitation that may have been there longer term in terms of people living there year round. We will get onto the lines, but I think it is important to do this background first with Karachi and the Nazca to really set the context, isn't it? Because

it's absolutely crucial. And if we focus in a bit more on Karachi, because I've got in my notes, I'm going to absolutely butcher the pronunciation of this particular site. You know what I'm going to be saying next. Estaqueria. Estaqueria. What? This is another interesting site. It's located 2.4 miles or 4 kilometers west of Kauachi.

So it's quite close to Kauachi. Some consider it to be linked to Kauachi and even included as an additional complex. But the key thing is that there are substantial remains of the early Nazca. So it was utilized at the same time as Kauachi as a ceremonial space. And even by the Paracas, which we'll talk more about later, they're the ancestors to the Nazca. But what's interesting about this site is that it took on a dominant role during the late Nazca phases. So around 500 CE to 650 CE, it became the new major ceremonial center.

So Kauachi was actually abandoned. There were still cemeteries and ritual internments, but in large scale, it was abandoned by the people and instead people visited this site. So that is what's interesting about this site. And as with Kowatchi, there are lots of plazas, adobe platforms, etc. And so people think that Kowatchi was abandoned likely due to a restructuring of the Nazca society. Some scholars contend that there was a shift to an emphasis on local lords vying for power and territory, and a shift away from the religious elite. So we're still looking into that period, but that's what people essentially think was going on with this power shift.

And just help us get a real clear image of this in our minds, Sarah. When talking words like plaza and platforms, are we supposed to be thinking of things similar to, let's say, Mesoamerican places like Teotihuacan? Or is it slightly different in ancient Peru? Are we supposed to be thinking of things similar to, let's say, Mesoamerican places like Teotihuacan? Or is it slightly different in ancient Peru? Specifically for the Nazca, obviously there are so many other cultures in ancient Peru. But specifically for the Nazca, some of them aren't as well preserved. But thinking of kind of the Great Temple area in Coahuachí, they are essentially adobe-based, stepped pyramid kind of mounds with these multi-level platforms going down. So yes, it is kind of this stepped, an emphasis on height and gaining height. And we think that a lot of them were built by adjusting existing mounds that were already in the area, hillsides. So some of

them are kind of built into the hillside. Others are adobe freestanding structures that are essentially a variation of a stepped pyramid. Well, thank you for explaining and highlighting that, Sarah. Now, let's therefore move on to the lines. But let's say we are at Kauachi or Astakia area. Definitely got that wrong again, but no shame, no shame whatsoever. Let's say we're stationed there. How far do we have to go roughly before we start seeing these legendary lines? So they're very close to Kauachi. These lines are located in clusters above and below on a map of Kauachi. So in the Pampa or desert plain north and south, there are clusters of geoglyphs in these areas. So, yes, there's definitely been work linking these geoglyphs to this famous ritual site.

Interesting. Actually, to go back to the archaeology and the discovery of these lines, because they are incredible to look at today, but it looks like you need to see them from the air to really appreciate them. Do we know when these lines were first discovered? Yes. And so, of course, here I use discovered in air quotes, you know, since they've been there for a long time, since the time of the Nazca, but they were first widely reported to the rest of the world in the early 20th century. But there is actually evidence that some early Spaniards in the area thought the large linear geoglyphs were ancient roads, such as Cieza de Leon around 1576, So they haven't gone completely unnoticed.

Right. How interesting. How interesting. And when we started to realize that these weren't roads, these were lines, these were parts of these incredible geoglyphs. So roughly how many of these lines of these designs do we know of so far? So there are over 2,000 geoglyphs across the Peruvian south coast. And it's a large area of about 290 miles of coastline, 470 kilometers. But yes, 2,000 across the region. And we're still finding new ones as time continues. And do we find them always on plains or do they kind of cut over hills and

stuff like that? What's the general topography for the laying out of these lines? So some are along hillsides, but the majority are on these flat desert plains called the Pampa. And that is where the majority of geoglyphs would be found, especially by the Nazca. And Sarah, talk us through, how do we think these lines were made? What do they consist of materials wise? So the majority are made by moving away the darker rocky surface of this desert plain to reveal lighter soil underneath. So this is called a subtractive technique and in many places of the desert plain the surface is darker in color due to high levels of iron oxide

causing this reddish color. So the surface is this reddish color and when you move the rocks it's much lighter and that contrast is what we see with these geoglyphs. So it's actually quite easy to make in terms of just moving this soil away. Of course, creating the large complex figures more difficult, but the method itself is quite simple. And that's one of the most striking things, if not the most striking things about these lines, isn't it, Sarah, as we're going to get into now.

It's the great complex variety of artistic designs that these people create. They are extraordinary and there is such a huge variety, isn't there? Yes, there is a large variety. There's obviously the famous animal images and there are many different types of animals. So a monkey, it's quite famous one, killer whale, dog, spider, hummingbird, condor, pelican, lizard, whale, dog, spider, hummingbird, condor, pelican, lizard, other avian species. And then there's also actual lines, as well as large trapezoidal figures, and then other geometric forms, spirals, rectangles, triangles. But then also, we mentioned animals, but there's also trees and plant forms, even just hands. So a huge variety of figures in these geoglyphs.

Well, let's delve into the animals first, because I think these are so, so, so interesting. You mentioned those different types of animals depicted there. Are there any particular favourite Nazca animal designs that you'd like to highlight here? Well, I'm partial to the monkey and hummingbird are quite, you know, just they're so impressive. And the monkey has this distinctive large spiral tail. Let's go deep into the detail of the monkey first, and then we'll go to the hummingbird then. Okay, sure. So the monkey is around 300 feet long, about 91 meters. You can find it on Google Earth and measure it yourself. But yeah, the monkey has this distinctive large

spiral tail. And actually, I was going to bring this up later, but one of my favorite facts about the geoglyphs is that the monkey has nine fingers, if you look closely. And we think this was deliberate. In ancient times in Peru, the monkey first was associated with water, as we will see with other figures, because it lived in areas with plentiful supplies. So usually sort of more rainforest,

climbs that had more rainfall, certainly, than the desert. Now, the fact that the monkey has been drawn with nine fingers, we do not think it's a sign of technical inaccuracy, but a way to refer to the monkey as a divine animal. For example, Reinhard argues that at the time of the Inca, it was a widely held belief to consider people or animals born with birth defects as sons or daughters of the lightning and the thunder, which were associated, of course, with rain and

water. So we think that is why the monkey, as you can see for a geoglyph, if you look up the figure, has nine fingers. Wow, I'm just going to look that up now. I'm sorry, I'm going to, monkey, we're going back to the idea of agriculture, aren't we? The importance of agriculture and kind of seeing, I mean, I'm just looking, I know this is not a visual podcast, but everyone listening in, you can just easily Google monkey Nazca lines and you get that spiral tail in itself is incredible. It's almost the size of the very thin line that wears the monkey's body, isn't it? Absolutely. I highly recommend looking up the figure for all those listening. And once again, that links back to why the monkey, it's that link to agriculture,

the importance of the river valleys, the importance of water and farming in this otherwise very hot, very arid, very dry landscape, is it? Absolutely. And actually, I would love to just talk about Nazca religion really quick before we get into more detail about the geoglyphs. So in terms of Nazca religion, what we know about it is based on ceramic and textile imagery, as well as geoglyphs, the imagery on geoglyphs. And from what we understand, it's a focus on the worship of supernatural beings linked to natural forces. So powerful creatures of the sky, earth, ocean, mountain deities. They likely had shamans as intermediaries with the spirit world. We know they took hallucinogenics such as San Pedro cactus, likely for religious rituals. And as you mentioned,

water and fertility are core focus of ritual activities in order to support agricultural production and life. And it's important to remember in this part of the world, they were at the mercy of earthquakes. It's definitely an earthquake zone, as well as flooding and drought. And so the rituals were also attempts to appease nature. And ancestor worship was also important. So this is something to keep in mind when we're talking about the geoglyphs, these aspects of Nazca religion. Aspects of Nazca religion, indeed. That's fascinating. Well, come on then, we've kind of scratched the surface now. We've got to talk about the hummingbirds because this one just seems incredible of all of them they all look amazing but for me there's something about the hummingbird which just takes it to another level so why the hummingbird and take it away

with the details of it sure sure so the hummingbird again is around 300 feet long depending on how you measure including the long beak etc but what's beautiful about the hummingbird is quite detailed wings, long beak, very impressive. Highly recommend looking that up on Google Earth or online for those listening. And the hummingbird, what's interesting is that hummingbirds were associated as messengers of the gods in many ancient Peruvian societies. And they were, again, associated with water. And hummingbirds in particular for the highlands above the Nazca drainage were associated with water. And you see them a lot in Nazca iconography. And something that we should keep in mind as we delve deeper

for the geoglyphs is that the people themselves, these images appeared, they were very common on ceramics. The monkey with the spiral tail and the hummingbird, even in this position on flight, were very common on ceramics, especially. And so the people would have been very familiar with these figures, with this imagery. So even though they might have not been able to see it physically by being on the ground, they would be familiar with what the figure would need to look like, would have looked like, because it was a common image, almost a symbol on their art. I was going to ask that next. Now, if they are unable to kind of see it as they're making it, they don't have that aerial view. So maybe they will never actually really appreciate

how incredible it looks. Do we know how they were able to kind of keep the pattern, to keep the drawing looking correct as they were making it? Well, we don't know for certain, of course, but there are some ideas as to how these geoglyphs were made. So as mentioned, it's a subtractive technique, removing the soil surface. Straight lines were probably laid out by siding through along wooden posts and pulling cotton string along sight lines to delineate a geoglyph edge for straight lines and large figures this is fascinating could have been amplified from textile based warp and weft grids staked on the ground so imagine a large grid system it's very

important to understand to you that the Nazca society textiles were vital and were a very important aspect of their art. So they would have been very familiar with having a grid based design. And so they could have amplified the size from small to large with a large grid pattern. Spirals and curved portions of figures also may have been achieved by running a string around a wood stake and essentially a compass to create arc segments, you know, using a standardized unit of measure. And actually, there have been several experiments by archaeologists and others that prove that small groups using these methods can create a large design like this in a week,

following these techniques. So it is very feasible. We've got the spider up as well. And the symmetry of the spider is incredible. And you mentioned also the killer whale. I love that killer whale given like the arid desert environment that they're in. It is close to the ocean which is important to note as well. It is on the south coast and so they could have reached the ocean. We know that they didn't necessarily for the Nazca that is depend on marine resources as much as they did agricultural, but they would have been familiar with marine species as well.

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New episodes dropping every Monday and Thursday. So join me on American History Hit, a podcast by History Hit. Okay, let's move on from the animal lines, fascinating as they are, because they're not the only types of lines, are they? We also have actual lines too, don't we? Yes, these long lines that, again, some of the Spaniards thought were ancient roads, and they go on for many miles. Some of them are up to 30 miles long. They look a bit like runways.

So they are incredibly long. But alongside just those straight ones, are there shapes too? Are there geometric shapes? So not figuratively. We have geometric shapes too, don't we? Yes, yes. So there's these extended trapezoids that go on, again, up to miles. And then rectangles, so large rectangles, triangle-shaped, and spirals, and zigzag lines as well. Wow. Well, there we go. There we go indeed. Well, those are the main types of lines, are there? So we haven't missed any with those different categories.

any with those different categories? No, I think that's pretty much covered. Again, there are some kind of plant forms, trees, even just hands. So there are many different figures for these geoglyphs. Some really bizarre ones indeed. Well, I guess I've got to ask therefore next, why we know for certain, or it's very, very likely that the ancient prehistoric people that made these lines were the Nazca culture and not another culture. How do we know that? Yes, going into how to date, how do we know that these lines were made by the Nazca? So we do know that geoglyphs were also created by the Paracas, which we mentioned earlier. The Paracas people are the ancestors to the Nazca, and they lived in the region 800 to 100 BCE. So we do know that some geoglyphs were made by the Paracas. And indeed, geoglyphs continue to be made long after the Nazca for the next 700 years by people in the region. However, most

scholars do agree that the apogee was with the Nazca people, that most geoglyphs in the region were made by the Nazca. Now, how do we know? How do we date the lines? Well, one of the primary ways is to look at the imagery and the images are strikingly similar to those found on Nazca ceramics and textiles, which we mentioned earlier. You know, again, with the Paracas, that can be the case where the imagery more so matches what the Paracas people created on their ceramics earlier. So you can date these lines based on looking at other material culture, other art created by the society. So again, the hummingbird,

the monkey, very much distinctively Nazca in the way that they're drawn and made. And there are also, so in terms of the archaeology, we find Nazca ceramics nearby the lines, often broken as offerings, what we think we're offering smashed and left there. So another way to date lines is to look at are there any ceramics located nearby archaeologically? Can we find any on the surface, perhaps digging a bit that we can date as Nazca or later or Paracas. And then next radiocarbon dates. So we can date structures found near geoglyphs. Now this isn't guaranteed that they're associated with the geoglyph, but oftentimes if there's a structure nearby and that provides some organic material, we can radiocarbon date.

And then the analysis of the spatial relationship between the geoglyphs and Nazca sites or other sites in the region. Again, with Kawachi, the fact that there are many clustered around Kawachi also secures that it was likely made by the Nazca rather than when you know they were associated with earlier or later sites so spatial relationship radiocarbon dates ceramics and then imagery are the major ways to date the Nazca lines or geoglyphs in general well I think that's a nice segue to talk about the ceramics and the arts before we go back to like what was the purpose of these because I think actually this is really nice to do before that so let's talk about these other things that the Nazca are remembered for but seem to very much align with the lines because talk to me about themes about styles of art that we do see

depicted on these ceramics absolutely so the Nazca are famous for their polychrome slip painted ceramics they are absolutely stunning and very sophisticated, very beautiful, and they're also known, as I mentioned, for their detailed textile art production. Now, talking about, you know, what does this art depict, especially for the ceramics in the early to mid-NASCA phases, so 100 BCE to 500 CE, there's an emphasis on agriculture. Perhaps unsurprising, again, I'm talking about how important agriculture is. Agriculture, fertility, plants, animals, the riverine environment, so this river ecosystem that they lived in. And Vaughan, this is, again, linking to political.

Vaughan and others have suggested that Kowatchee may have actually played a central role in ceramic production and distribution of these ceramics. So these ceramics were very important to rituals, to life itself, and is a crucial way to understand and look at Nazca societies, what they painted on their ceramics. You talked about themes. Another, for example, a prominent figure in Nazca art is what's called the anthropomorphic mythical being, AMB for short, in the literature. These are long humanoid creatures with these distinctive masks of gold, almost feline-like, these masks.

And these exact masks have been found in Nazca graves, suggesting that people may have dressed up as these creatures or that the imagery reflects that these individuals played this role and it's depicting these individuals in rituals. Most think that these mythical beings were linked to water. Again, you see a theme here. So that's an example of a theme in Nazca art. What's interesting though is late Nazca, so around 500 to 650 CE, there's a shift to more militaristic themes and a focus more on the individual rather than these animals and other figures, suggesting an increase in conflict,

which we'll discuss later. But there are variations throughout the time of the Nazca in themes. But for the case of the geoglyphs, they also match these figures, these plants, animals, and in general, the flora and fauna of the surrounding area for the Nazca. So let's say the animal images of the Nazca lions, let's say a killer whale or a spider or hummingbird or a monkey, do we see depictions of those animals again, therefore, on Nazca ceramics that have been uncovered? Yes.

Incredible. Exactly. You can do a quick search you know monkey ceramic pottery or especially hummingbird there's quite a few famous hummingbird nazca ceramic if you type that in you'll see examples there's quite a famous killer whale it's a 3d ceramic so it's a molded ceramic and the shape itself of that ceramic is a killer whale so it's's quite a famous one. Oh, yes, with the teeth. Yes, with the teeth as well. How amazing. So it's a reflection. It's once again showing how there's so much more to the Nazca than just the lines. It's like with the Olmec, there's so much more to the Olmec than

just the heads. And things like that, like that ceramic, it shows how those lines were intertwined with so many other parts of the Nazca culture, arts, religion. Exactly. It's crucial to have that background before looking at these lines and doing analysis intertwined with so many other parts of the Nazca culture, arts, religion. Exactly. It's crucial to have that background before looking at these lines and doing analysis of them. Yes. Well, let's go back to the lines. Now, you mentioned how they are, you know, we see predecessors of the Nazca making geoglyphs too. So are we able with the dating of these lines, do we get any sense that there is an evolution in these lines over time? Do they get more and more detailed? I mean, do we know anything about that? So we know they weren't all made at the same time, but there is again this apogee with the Nazca. So a couple things. Rheindel and

Eisler argue that the geoglyphs likely have origins from abundant petroglyphs in the Upper Palpa Valley. So they think there may have been a development from this shift in media from petroglyphs as in drawing on rock surfaces into drawing then on the desert floor. And as mentioned, the earliest geoglyphs are by the Paracas. So you can see this shift in iconography or imagery. Silverman argues that a small number of geoglyphs made by an additive technique, which is adding rocks to the surface to make piles and lines she argues that these are associated with the paracas versus the subtractive is more so for the nazca geoglyphs so you can track changes and development over time that geoglyphs began with the paracas perhaps also before that or during with petroglyphs and then it reached its height during the Nazca and

then continued to be made in the region for the next 700 years you can trace the development through time. Oh interesting I love that indeed so as you mentioned not all made at the same time it's that evolution in itself over many many centuries go on then Sarah we've talked about all of these different angles so the big big, big question, why, for what purpose do we think the Nazca lines were made? Yes. So before we get into it, an important thing to remember is just because we can see the lines best from a modern airplane does not necessarily mean they were made to be viewed from the sky. I think that's a very important thing to keep in mind throughout this discussion that many people argue, but they're made to be viewed from the sky.

Well, not necessarily, but even so from an angle of the heritage in art studies of the individual needing to view the object and know what it is and identify the object. This is a different artistic tradition. This is a different aesthetic. And it wasn't necessarily important to see the image for the Nazca people. Again, I mentioned earlier, even if the Nazca could not see the whole entire hummingbird, they knew what it would look like based on ceramics. So the core of it is most scholars agree that the Nazca lines were meant to be walked along or danced along in procession, and they were places where religious rituals were practiced.

Some aspects to support this are most figured geoglyphs are open-ended so if you look closely it's almost like a maze. They're maze-like. They have a beginning and end point. So this is support of why many people believe that they were walked or danced. Perhaps an analogy can be drawn to a spiral labyrinth garden. Have you seen these that emulate pilgrimage journeys and Christian traditions in Europe? So these spiral designs on the earth were not meant to be viewed from above. They were made to be walked. So that's an important shift when thinking about these geoglyphs.

And archaeologists think that the Nazca rituals associated with the geoglyphs primarily had to do with water and agricultural fertility, as we're learning are crucial things for the Nazca. Water was everything to them, and they were highly dependent on it. And many geoglyphs are associated with small platforms with offerings of ceramics, spondylous shell, and there's offerings at the end of these lines, almost as they processed through the entire line and then made a large offering as a group afterwards at the end of the line. Spondylus shell, which was a major offering, are specifically linked to bringing water and agricultural fertility, and they were highly valuable material. They were obtained off

the warm waters of Ecuador, which are very far from this part of Peru. There's also evidence of broken pan pipes and different musical instruments. So people likely played music while walking these lines. And these lines, these figures, which we'll discuss now, are almost all associated with water in themselves within the religious and cultural ideology. And some have argued that when these lines were walked, it enlivened the figures. It made them real. It made them alive. It called to those, you know, these forces of nature. So many of these birds are linked to mountains and water. So we talked about hummingbirds. Cormorants are linked to water and the sea. The condor, which is another famous one, is a symbol of rain, thought to be a sign of coming rain in the

mountains. Spider, which you mentioned, is a sign of rain. Tarantulas are actually symbols of fertility in southern Peru. Monkeys, again, associated with rain. The geometric interpretations have to do with water, we think as well. Spirals, perhaps seashells. Zigzags is perhaps rivers or lightning or irrigation channels. The other association with water is that many of the Nazca Limes seem to intersect filtration galleries underground that the Nazca have built or underground sources of water. So we think that there is a correlation to where these lines are and sources of water underground or in the mountains. So that agriculture link right there is there right again.

So, I mean, that's incredible. I don't know really what else to say that because I'm also, my eyes are just glued to all of these images, Nazca lines, including one which seems to just be two hands and what looks like a stomach. So is it kind of like a take your child to work day example where they didn't quite finish it? But that's fascinating. once again, as we've stressed several times during this podcast, it is so linked to the livelihoods of these people, this kind of almost marking potentially where these underground water locations were. Exactly. And a couple key points here is Reinhard, so another scholar who works in the area, proposes that geoglyphs are part of this mountain water fertility cult. And interesting examples that in

other places in the highlands, in the Andean highlands, straight lines were constructed and used as sacred paths to reach the mountains and water as sources to worship. So there's other parts in Peru where lines created on the ground were used in rituals and in worship associated with water. So not even necessarily just in this region. Others have argued that some lines might not even point to a geographic area, but lead to places where rituals were performed. And another interesting fact to link it to aridity or lack thereof, wanting water. During the Middle Nazca, there was an intensification in the use of geoglyphs.

And this coincided with increased aridity in the region. So we think that more and more geoglyphs were made in order to, again, appease these forces trying to bring water to promote agricultural fertility. There's so much to talk about these lines, but another interesting aspect is that many of the lines appear to be aligned with the sunset and sunrise in winter and summer solstices and spring and autumn equinox which marked the end of the beginning of seasons especially agricultural seasons suggesting that also the Nazca perhaps conducted ceremonies linked to a calendar and specifically linked to different phases in agriculture another really important aspect of geoglyphs to discuss is in their construction,

it emphasizes social solidarity. It emphasizes collective action and the group. And others have argued that this is a key aspect of looking at geoglyphs, that actually it is important how you made it, and the act of making it itself was the reason why they made it in the first place. So that the process of making is as important as the final product. And that is a key theme referred to as factor. The importance of factor in a lot of Andean ideology is that the making may have been the most important aspect of looking at these geoglyphs.

that the making may have been the most important aspect of looking at these geoglyphs. And some evidence of that is that some new figures of these geoglyphs cross over old ones. There's this crisscross pattern where older ones are actually somewhat covered and in our eyes, quote, ruined by others. But again, that supports that maybe it was the act of making it and processing along it and walking along it that was the act of making it and processing along it and walking along it that was the important part not necessarily preserving the final project in its beginning stages in its original form another example that i think is fascinating that shows this emphasis on making is late nazca tassels so again similar time period made by the nazca are these very

interesting textile creations, just like a normal tassel, what you'd think, you know, on a curtain or something. But imagine that these tassels have incredibly complex internal structures that are not visible in the final product. So there's some interesting articles that analyze how these tassels were made, where some of the most complicated parts you can't even see as the final product. So again, this different way of thinking

that in part is the process of making that was as important as the aesthetics of the final product. I love that. It's so interesting to highlight that. It's like making a stone circle on Orkney or making an outreach in Polynesian society. How there is that force. Again, the process of making something more important than its final purpose

I think your good friend Dr Alexei Vranic also mentioned something similar with Tuwanaku as well the whole building of that place also in South America so that's incredible and also from what you were saying there this idea of some lines being built on top of others I've got a picture of the whale up now and I can just see this massive straight line that kind of cuts it in two which is fascinating one of those like ancient what the spanish believed were roads i could talk to you about this all day this is brilliant sarah but i mean you hinted it there but let's kind of delve into this a bit more just before we completely wrap up geoglyphs southern peru this area of the nazca but geoglyphs, southern Peru, this area of the Nazca. But geoglyphs as a thing by ancient societies, they're not just consigned to this area of the continent, are they?

Correct. They're definitely in other parts of the world. And before I get into that, I should mention that some geoglyphs are covered with lines that are roads. And sometimes it's due to modern destruction, because sometimes also people don't realize they're there. So that is also an aspect of looking at the Nazca Lines. Unfortunately, there was a famous actually event where Greenpeace put a sign up near, I believe it was the Hummingbird Geoglyph. Something about, I don't think it was quite global warming, but something to do with the Earth and protecting the Earth. But they actually destroyed part of the hummingbird glyph. So that was quite a famous act to destroy them, which is very frustrating.

So sometimes there are modern issues there. But linking to this global approach to geoglyphs that you mentioned, before I completely leave the Nazca plain, I also want to mention that Daryl Wilkinson, a good friend from Cambridge, he also made a recent interpretation, 2020 article, looking at, he argues, geoglyphs in general, but looking at the Nazca Lines as well, serve as an uncontrollable ritual space, and geoglyphs as a counterbalance to Kowachi and its more controlled ritual, and the idea that geoglyphs emphasize group and collective action. And geoglyphs can therefore be seen as a way to balance, rebalance, and redistribute ceremonial power by Nazca groups. And he also talks about other examples in the world. And he argues that geoglyphs are essentially associated with

middle range societies and could be seen as a way to emphasize collective action and rebalance power, which I think is really fascinating. And you mentioned, are there geoglyphs in other parts of the world? Yes. So there's the famous Uffington white horse in the chalk hills of england and there's the blithe geoglyphs in california step geoglyphs of kazakhstan mound builders of midwestern us clearly an additive technique there although it is interesting to note that figurative geoglyphs are much more limited yet are prominent in south america and specifically with the nasca i'm just looking at the blive geoglyphs now i've never heard of that in california anyway going down a rabbit hole there as we no doubt will continue to if we keep going

distracting me with all these incredible examples from elsewhere in the world sarah i'm not going to go down the rabbit hole of also this other figure, the astronaut figure, this man that's shown in one of the lines there. I mean, go on then. Yes, also referred to as the owl figure, I believe. And I believe that one is associated with the Paracas. And you can see the difference there in its iconography and the way it's made and the imagery. Absolutely. It looks like he's waving. Interesting. Let's wrap it up. We talked about the purpose of the Nazca lines, this incredible ancient culture in southern Peru. The big question is, therefore, what ultimately happens to the Nazca? So the Nazca. So what happens is that in the late Nazca period, so the end of what we call the early intermediate period,

there seems to be fragmentation, increased warfare. I hinted at that with the shift in iconography and imagery on the ceramics. We start to see this major shift in the political and social sphere of the Nazca. And then we start to see evidence of the Wari culture in the Nazca river valleys. And the Wari were a powerful state some argue an empire an expansionist state certainly which seems to have exerted a lot of influence of the nazca and many parts of the andes during the next period that we call the middle horizon which is around 650 to 1000 ce then the warri began to influence this area and we see that the Nazca and the Wari cultures seem to have intermingled and coexisted now in this region. Then after the collapse of the Wari, which was around 1000, evidence suggests

that the population of the Nazca river valleys fled and abandoned the region, perhaps due to drought, which again, we know the impact of drought in this area, or a collapse of infrastructure linked to water management. Perhaps the Wari introduced a new system or organization linked to water now that then collapsed when they collapsed. We're not quite certain, but it was abandoned for 200 years, from 1000 to 1200. Now what's interesting is this is not the case in the Ika Valley where I work. So again, the Nazca lived in the Ica Valley and the Nazca drainage. Ica Valley is just north of the Nazca drainage. And in the Ica Valley, people did not flee. They did not seem to have the same

shifts, the same issues. And instead, they began establishing new cities. And the Ica society rose to power in this time period with the political capital Ica Vieja. And so then moving back to the Nazca drainage, after some time, the Nazca drainage was re-inhabited around 1200. But it's interesting to note that based on genetic evidence, the Nazca drainage seems to have been repopulated by people not directly related to those that had lived in the Nazca drainage in the past. So not related to the people who built and made these Nazca lines. Now, in contrast, the Ica society were a continuous population.

They are the direct descendants of the Nazca culture. And the new society that developed in the Ica Valley, they flourished from the late intermediate period, 1000 to 1470 CE, and they continued for the next 600 years. Moving back to the Nazca drainage, they, as mentioned, were re-inhabited, that area was re-inhabited by 1200 CE, and the new society in the Nazca drainage was not based on cohesion through religious sites. So we see this shift, you know, away from the tradition of Kowatchee, Nazca lines, and instead, again, it was these local elites vying for power. So religion didn't seem to be a major source of cohesion like it was in the past.

Then the Inca arrive on the scene into Nazca drainage around 1476. They built two centers in the region. And their impact on local sites varies across the region. Some local elites seem to have remained in place in the late horizon, which is 1476 around 1532, which was a similar case in the Ica Valley in terms of the Inca Empire and its impact on the people. Wow. Well, we can't get into that now. Also, it's too modern for the ancients, I'm afraid, but we'll have to get you back on for either the medieval or not just the Judas with Susie or Matt to continue the story. It is an incredible topic. I've been waiting a long time to do the Nazca lines

and the Nazca culture in general, Sarah. It is amazing. And it also, although we seem to know quite a lot already from the archaeology that survives, it feels like there is still so much more to learn, not just about the lines, but the Nazca culture in general in the years ahead. Absolutely.

There is so much to still investigate in terms of the Nazca. As I mentioned, there's still debates as to its social and political organization. There's debates as to what exactly was that? Was it centralized? Was it decentralized? There's so much to still understand about its religion, ritual aspects of the culture. And we didn't talk about this as much, but we don't know that much about Nazca daily life. There's a saying that we know more about the Nazca in death than we do in life,

because there's a focus on looking at excavating their tombs where the beautiful ceramics and textiles are found, but it's notoriously difficult to excavate villages because they're made out of ephemeral material and are more difficult to find and excavate. So there's still much to learn about even just Nazca daily life, religion, politics, etc. It sounds so similar to so many other cultures, mystery cultures like the Etruscans and the Sumerians. We're not going to go down there today, but it's so interesting how you have that focus on tomb excavations of the elite and which things that they're buried with, how that shines again and again and again.

But Sarah, going to completely wrap up now. This has been incredible. And it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today. No problem. Thank you for inviting me. Well, there you go. There was Dr. Sarah Morissette talking you through the story, what we know about the fascinating geoglyphs that are the Nazca Lines and about the wider Nazca culture tube of prehistoric Peru. I really loved recording that episode. As mentioned at the

start, I've been wanting to do an episode on the Nazca Lines for some time now, and Sarah was the best guest for it. I hope you enjoyed the episode as much as I did recording it. Now, last thing from me, you know what I'm going to say. If you enjoyed the episode, if you're enjoying the Ancient's Full Stop, and you want to help ourselves on our infinite mission to share these amazing stories from our distant past with as many people as possible. Just log on to where you get your podcasts from. Find us, the ancients. Give us a lovely rating, a five star. I mean, that's amazing.

You get our eternal gratitude on the wider, more serious note. It does really help us as we continue to grow the podcast and share these amazing stories with you with as many people as possible and also give experts like Sarah the spotlight that they deserve for the incredible research that they do in these various topics from our distant past that they find understandably so so fascinating but that's enough from me and I will see you in the next episode.