The Ancients - The Origins of Buddhism

Episode Date: February 23, 2023

One of the oldest religions in the world, Buddhism is practiced by over 400 million people today, but where did it originate from? Pioneered by the Buddha - a wandering ascetic - it emerged in northern India in the fifth century BC as a new path that challenged the elitist structures of Indian Vedic culture. But what sparked the Buddha’s journey to enlightenment, and why did his teachings spread so far and so quickly?In today’s episode of The Ancients, Tristan is joined by Dr Mary Storm - an expert on Indian ancient history - to unravel the origins of Buddhism. Together, they take a deep-dive into a world shaped by the Four Noble Truths, and the Eight-Fold Path, and explore who the legendary Buddha really was.The Senior Producer was Elena Guthrie.The Assistant Producer was Annie Coloe.Edited by Joseph Knight.For more Ancients content, subscribe to our Ancients newsletter here. If you'd like to learn even more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - enter promo code ANCIENTS for a free trial, plus 50% off your first three months' subscription.To download, go to Android > or Apple store >

Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and in today's episode, while we're going far away from the Mediterranean, we're finally returning to ancient India, to the Indian subcontinent. Now on the ancients in the past, we have talked about India in passing, we've talked about Indian war elephants, we've talked about some Greek and Roman interactions with the Indian subcontinent, but I don't think yet we've really taken a real deep delve into

India's ancient history. We want to correct that. And in today's episode, we're going back to around about the 5th century BC to talk all about the emergence of Buddhism. What's the context? What's happening in India at that time, particularly in northern India? What are the basic teachings of Buddhism? And of course, the big, big question, teachings of Buddhism, and of course, the big, big question. Who was the Buddha? What do we know about his life and how he helps create this new path in this very tumultuous, changing time that was 5th century BC, Northern India? Well, to explain all, I was delighted to get on the podcast, dialing in from Sri Lanka, Dr. Mary Storm. Now, a few things about Mary. One, she's an expert on so much of India's ancient history,

from the origins of Buddhism, as you're going to hear, but all the way down to medieval Indian sculpture. And two, thank you so much to Annie Woodman in the office. She's a great friend and a co-worker of mine at History Hit HQ and her partner Alec who are good friends with Mary and who recommended Mary as the guest for this episode today. And Mary, she did not disappoint. She is brilliant. So without further ado, to talk all about the origins of Buddhism, here's Mary. Origins of Buddhism is Mary.

Mary, it is wonderful to have you on the podcast today. Well, thank you. It's fun to be here. It's very fun to have you on. You're dialing in from Sri Lanka today. And first of all, I just want to say, good luck. You're a fountain of knowledge, but the origins of Buddhism, one of the most popular religions today. So to therefore talk about the origins of knowledge, but the origins of Buddhism, one of the most popular religions today. So to therefore talk about the origins of it, it feels like, Mary, this must be an absolutely massive topic. Yes. People have written a lot of books about this, many university courses, and yeah. Well, no such thing as a silly question to start it all off. Mary, what exactly is Buddhism? It started off as one of several other heretical pushbacks to Vedic culture in the 5th century. Vedic culture meaning the four Vedas, the Upanishads, the Brahmanas, the various texts

that we associate with that whole rubric Vedism. It was a pushback. So I think there's a common assumption that everybody sort of went along with the Vedas and there were never any questions. And it was like the Brahmins sort of ran the show and they were able to dictate what people did, which was based on sacrifice. And they were the ritualists who controlled sacrifice. But there were always people who were questioning, especially the control of the Brahmins, this powerful elite who directed the sacrifices. And in the fifth century, there's a lot of uproar in the world in general. The first pandemics turned up, like the plague in Athens and other places. The urban centers were forming. People

were, for the first time, really having to deal with large urban issues. All the stuff that's still a problem today, you know, infrastructure and roads and laws and all the rest of it. And in North India, in the area which is now called Bihar, it's interesting why it's called Bihar, but that's a story for another day. This area was called Magadha in history. And in this area of Magadha, there were several, you can say, philosophers who started to push back against this control of the Brahmin priests. And there was the Buddha, Siddhartha Gautam, Shakyamuni, has all these different names. And he spoke up with this philosophy that eventually became the religion of Buddhism. There was Mahavira, who was a contemporary, who was the founder of Jainism.

And then there were communities like the Ajivakas, who were sort of skeptics. And then other communities like the Charvakas, that we don't really know too much about, but they were also atheist and skeptical and rejected materialism. So it was in this atmosphere of questioning that was going on in other places, too. Of course, it was going on in Greece at that time. The fifth century was the time of a lot of debate and philosophical development, the age of Pericles. And, you know, it was a very exciting time to be alive. Not always good exciting, but it was certainly an interesting time to be alive. A lot of this

was going on in China as well. You know, the formation of cities and none of this was written down during the Buddha's lifetime. But very quickly after his lifetime, there was the first council, the first meeting of his disciples and those who were patrons and so forth. And they start writing down what he had to say. And a lot of his sutras, his commentary, his sermons, talk about life as if it's a disease. You feel dis-ease in this world of tension and disappointment and anxiety and all the stuff that people are worried about today. Same stuff. So he often couches his teachings as a physician. He never claims to be a god, never claims to be a prophet. He never had anybody divinely tell him

what was going on. No angels appeared to him. You know, one of the things that makes his teachings appealing, I think today, to many people is that he said, look, I'm a human being. I figured it out. You can too. It's possible to break out of this disease. Well, Mary, it is such an interesting story. So I'm so glad we got you on the podcast to really delve into it. You mentioned a few names there like the Vedas, the Brahmins, and I'd love to kind of delve into that a bit more as we explore the context behind the origins of Buddhism. You mentioned 5th century, so 5th century BC. You've mentioned the Vedas and the Vedic culture. As we see the emergence of Buddhism, or maybe let's say just before this time, can you elaborate on the Vedas and the Vedic culture and the geopolitical situation in

northern India at that time? The Vedas really can be traced back to about 1750 BC, and it's based on compositions, I'm not going to say texts because they were not written down for many hundreds of years, a collection of teachings or divine revelations that were given to a group of rishis or sages. And then those sages disseminated this information to a select group of people who could interpret it and perform the rituals, the Brahmins, right? So it was very ritualistic. It was predicated on sacrifice. Human sacrifice sometimes, very, very rarely, but usually animal sacrifice.

And it had to be performed exactly as it was spoken. The reason why the Vedas were not written down for so long is that people had to memorize them. And there were all kinds of very complex mnemonic devices that were used to memorize these very long compositions. The problem that arose as society was developing

and you had not just ritualists and farmers and kings, you also had merchants and you had bankers and you had administrators and architects and, you know, all kinds of different people, you know, military geniuses and so on and so forth. You have this very complex society that was being established. So there was this pushback, especially from the rising merchant class. They were the moneymakers of society and they had been pushed to the side by the ritualists. And so Buddhism often appealed to this other segment of society that wanted to have access to a religious life. So the Vedas are, you know, this group of highly ritualistic texts. Then the Brahmanas came in, which were a group of texts that really deal with how you perform these rituals. And then the Upanishads

came along. They're much more philosophical. They question the specificity of ritual and the specificity of sacrifice. They develop the idea of karma. They develop the ideas of rebirth. And all of this is kind of percolating in the Magadha area, in the northern Gangetic plain. And there's influence coming from other places. Ideas of kingship coming in from Persia. The Achaemenids had annexed part of northwest India. And then eventually, even Alexander made it to the edge of India in the next century. The ancient global world was more connected than we think it

was. I think there's a real anachronistic belief in contemporary society that ancient people didn't travel around, but I think people did travel and ideas certainly traveled. This idea that somehow Buddhism was never affected by other traditions, I think probably isn't true. I think new ideas did come in and certainly in political life, new ideas came in from all parts of the world, certainly from Persia, certainly from Greece. Well, thanks for highlighting all of that. It sounds as if, therefore, as we get to the beginning of the 5th century in northern India, the Magadha, the Gangetic plain area, as you say, there are these great challenges being posed to the Vedic culture. It's not appealing to everyone,

these new classes and people are moving around the place. We often underestimate how connected these people were. If we therefore focus on the emergence of Buddhism, I think we've got to focus on the figure right at the centre of it, or the Buddha. The big question of who was the Buddha, do we know from where in the Indian subcontinent he comes from? He came from Magadha. And he was a member of the Shakya family, which was an important family. His father was a king, a small king, but a king.

And when his mother was pregnant, he was the first child. And so traditionally, the mother goes to her family home to give birth to the first child. And she was on her way to giving birth in her family home when the birth pang started and in Lumbini, which is now technically in Nepal, but of course, Nepal and India per se didn't exist at this time. So, you know, holding on to the branch of a sacred tree, she gave birth and the Buddha emerged from her right side and immediately took numerous steps onto sort of golden lily pads, you know, these wonderful stories that come about how he was this miraculous child. And we know at Lumbini, Lumbini is the only place in the Indic world where there's an actual inscription that states that this was the birthplace

of the Buddha. Queen Maya sadly died not too long after the birth, and he was raised by his aunt and his father. And his father consulted these wise men, these rishis, and said, you know, this is a very unusual child, tell me more. And they said, well, he's either going to be a great king, a chakravartin, meaning somebody who sort of turns the wheel of fate, a really important concept in kingship, or he'll be a spiritual teacher. And so his father thought, well, I'll protect him from the vicissitudes of life and he'll have this wonderful life in the palace. And he'll never want to be a spiritual teacher because he won't see any of these sorrows that send people off to search meaning in asceticism. And all was well. When he was 16, he married his cousin, this beautiful girl named Yashoda,

which means she who holds glory. They had a child, Rahula, which means a fetter or encumbrance. And years pass, but he's unhappy. And so one day he goes out with his charioteer and he sees the four sites. He sees old age, sickness, death, and finally an aesthetic. And he questions his charioteer and he says, you know, what is all this about? And the charioteer represents this person who sort of has common sense. And, you know, he's the person who performs the catalytic push. The snap of the fingers, the click, the recognizing kind of thing, the steering the ship almost, yeah.

Yeah, we're all going to die, including you in your palace, you know. So this goes on for a while, this questioning. And finally, when he's 29, Gautama decides that he's got to find some answers. And so he leaves the palace and he goes out with Chana again and his horse, whom he loves very much and the horse loves him. As he leaves the palace, it's very difficult. He sees his wife and child sleeping and he tries several times to leave. And I think so many of these stories are so freighted with mythology and legend and so on. It's sometimes really hard to dig down and find the human being.

But I think that part of the story where we are told that it was painful for him to leave his child and his wife. So it has this element of truth to it that we can relate to, that we can feel that this man, yes, he was privileged, but yes, he also felt the pain of separation and thought it was worth it to do this. So he goes out with his beloved horse and he takes off his jewels. He has these elongated earlobes because he took out his huge, heavy jewelry. He took off his necklaces and his turban, another symbol of royalty. He gives all this to his man

and sends the two of them, the horse and the man back and the horse dies of a broken heart. He then spends the next six years trying to find these various communities that we mentioned earlier. These ascetic communities are trying to figure out what's going on. They're all pretty much agnostic or atheistic. So he meets with these different communities and has to decide, is this extreme asceticism okay? Is this extreme materialism? The Jivakas are very fatalistic. The Jains are into all this bodily mortification and so on. And then one day he's meditating and he's pushed himself and pushed himself. He's tried all these extreme ascetic practices and nothing has really helped him break through. And there's a girl who sees him sitting under a tree and she thinks he is one of these yaksas,

one of these nature spirits. And so she's in awe of him. He looks so haggard. She thinks he must be sort of superhuman and a forest spirit. And so she offers him a bowl of milk and rice porridge and he eats it. He feels better. He makes this breakthrough. And so this is part of the story of sort of moderation. You don't have to starve yourself. You don't have to stand on your head in the sun, you know, you have to use the talents that you have to find your truth. So he continues to meditate,

and he's tormented by this demon, Mara, meaning death. And Mara sends all kinds of demonic creatures and arrows and swords and all kinds of awful, destructive stuff. But as those things touch him, they turn into flowers. And then finally, in desperation, Mara says, I'm going to send my three daughters who will seduce you. One's beautiful, one's ugly, one's old, and they don't manage to seduce him. So the Buddha, as he's now known, he is now enlightened. He is now the Buddha. He calls upon the earth goddess to witness his right to enlightenment. So in previous births, he struggled and he made many libations to Bhudevi, to the earth goddess. And so in honor of that,

the goddess appears and she has long hair that is wet from having received all these libations. She wrings out her hair and lustrates the earth and says, this man is entitled to his enlightenment. So he then decides, I have figured out a lot here and I want to share it. And so he starts teaching to the men he had been with, the community of different ascetics that he had sheltered with. So he shares his teachings with them. Then we get into the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path and all that stuff. Yes, well, let's delve into that stuff to kind of highlight those basic teachings in a second. I mean, it's absolutely fascinating, though, that whole story, which you narrated so brilliantly there, Mary. I find it fascinating that the Buddha reaching enlightenment, it's such a humble story surrounding it. It's almost actually

kind of like Archimedes supposedly in the bath and then shouting Eureka, finding the solution, when he's very much relaxed at that time. He's not completely stressed trying to find it. It's at a time of relaxed state of mind that breakthrough is ultimately made. I find the parallel fascinating, and I find just that part of the story of the origins of Buddhism absolutely fascinating. And I think it follows certain archetypical paths, the labors of Heracles, the temptations of Christ, the same patterns that the hero has to follow. He follows those symbolic steps along the way. And that's why I was saying, you know, the story of his wife and his child, it's one of those moments where you

sort of see the human person in there. And there are other times in the sutras where you see him be impatient with people's stupid questions, or he's delighted with something. He's very human. Now I live in this very Buddhist country, but has so formalized the Buddha. He's been turned into a deity for all intents and purposes. And I think that's too bad in a way, because this example of a real person is very appealing, just as I think the paintings, images of Christ in Gethsemane, you know that that agony, the depression, the feeling of abandonment, the loneliness, you know that that agony, the depression, the feeling of abandonment, the loneliness is something that everyone goes through.

Over on the Warfare podcast by History Hit, we bring you brand new military histories from around the world. Each week, twice a week, we release new episodes with world-leading historians, expert policymakers, and the veterans who served from the greatest tanks of the Second World War. And so what are you actually trying to get out of your tank? You're trying to get maneuverability, and you're trying to get a really big gun. Your Tiger and your Panther are there to dominate the battlefield, primarily on the Eastern Front and in North Africa and all that sort of stuff.

But by the time they're actually coming in in decent numbers, that moment has already passed. Through to new histories that help us understand current conflicts. Any invader, any attacker, any adversary will exploit gaps within society. It was true then, it's true today. But the Finns signalled that they were united and I think that's what the Ukrainians should signal today too. Subscribe to Warfare from History Hit wherever you get your podcasts

and join us on the front lines of military history. Okay, before we go on to those basic teachings, we will get there as hinted at. But I guess I've also got to do a slight tangent and therefore ask, for this original story of the Buddha and that more human side of this figure, what sorts of sources do you have available for this story? I mean, when do we have it in the literature, the story of the Buddha and his path to creating this idea of Buddhism. He spoke in Magadhi. And as a member of the upper classes, he probably also knew Sanskrit. But no one was sitting at his side writing things down. But as I said, within a very short time after his death, the first council was called. And his disciple Ananda said, thus I have heard and recited all these sermons.

And we think, oh, well, how did he remember all that? He remembered all that probably because he had been taught to memorize vast amounts of material. When we look at the life of the Buddha, there are these three, what they call the Tripitaka in Sanskrit. It's a basket of three things. So there's the monastic rules, they're very important. And then there are the sutras, which are the sermons of the Buddha. And then

there's this thing called the Abhidhamma, which is the systemic philosophy, the exegetical material. So these three things are considered the big basket of Buddhist information. Well, thank you for clarifying that. I mean, because the story is the wealth of information for this topic is just so vast and so, so interesting. So I definitely wanted to go quickly down that tangent. But let's therefore go back to the story. So you've got the Buddha, you've got his fellow ascetics there. I'm presuming they become his disciples, but take it away, Mary. Massive question, I know. What are the Buddha's basic teachings?

The basic teaching is really, we are suffering. Human beings are suffering from lack of knowledge, from ignorance. Ignorance is the big problem. suffering, from lack of knowledge, from ignorance. Ignorance is the big problem. And amazingly enough, it still is. Just people do stupid stuff, right? And they're still doing stupid stuff. We haven't really moved forward much in many ways. So ignorance leads to behavior that affects our karma. And our karma affects our chances for rebirth and this endless cycle of life after life until we can figure it out. But within the Buddha's lifetime, there was a feeling that through following the Eightfold Path, acknowledging the Four Noble Truths, it would be possible

to break out in this lifetime. So he breaks it into the four noble truths. Life is suffering. Suffering is caused by dis-ease, dissatisfaction, the inevitable loss of every pleasure and those we love. And this is caused by our cravings, by our desire. We want pleasure. We want to avoid pain. And we can break out of this cycle by eradicating desire, learning how to break out, breaking these chains. And this can be done by following the Eightfold Path. So the Eightfold Path is divided into three major sections, discernment, ethics, and practice. The first part, discernment, is how we see the world. You have to clearly see what is going on. Self-awareness. You have to look at why you're

dissatisfied, why you're restless, why you feel enemy, alienation, etc. The next step of discernment is you have to decide to do something about it. That's hard. I mean, we're not just at stage two. is you have to decide to do something about it. And that's hard. I mean, we're not just at stage two. And it's really hard to do something about it. We'd much rather complain than actually do something about it. You have to have a true desire for liberation.

Okay, now we get into the next step. You have to behave ethically. So the next three parts of the Eightfold Path are about ethics. So you have to speak truthfully and compassionately. You can't just lay it out in blunt truth and hurt someone. You have to say it passionately, and that's hard too. And you have to be thoughtful. And you have to conduct yourself, act in a way that you

recognize the need for change. So no killing, no stealing, no lying, no unchastity or sexual misconduct, and no intoxicants. And then you have livelihood. And this is where your job must not conflict with the goal of a changed life. Think of the jobs that, you know, yeah, I'll just work for this big corporation for a while that sells contaminated baby formula. That's okay, because I need to make money. That sort of thing, that is not Buddhist. Or I'll work for this arms dealer, make lots of money, and I'll give it to charity. Well, you're screwing up your karma in the process, that sort of thing. You have to choose work that

brings people into a better state. It's very important to be altruistic. You know, we think of altruism as something that was invented really in the 19th century, Auguste Comte and all that stuff. The Buddha's talking about altruism. And then concentration, this is the last bit. You have to keep to the staying speed. It's like gardening. You can't just garden when you feel like it because the weeds will take over, the snails will eat your begonias. You have to stick with it every day. I have cows, can't go on a two-week vacation. Gotta milk the cows.

And then the seventh step on the path is right awareness, mindfulness. You have to think about this stuff all the time. Lots of people have talked about this. In some ways, this isn't new. And in some ways, it's transformative and amazing. Spinoza said, you know, we are the result of what we have thought, right? So people have been talking about this stuff along the way for centuries.

And somehow now Westerners are looking at Buddhism saying, oh, my God, nobody's ever said this before. Well, people have said it before. We just don't want to pay any attention to it. And the idea not to be driven by impulse or fear, to do things thoughtfully. And that seems to be a big problem right now in the world, doesn't it? Everybody's driven by the impulse, I'm going to lose my job or I'm going to go off and join a cult.

And then the last one, right concentration, contemplation with the deep mind, absorption and deep perception. You can see, therefore, Mary Konyu, how meditation, especially with the concentration and that don't be impulsive, focus, relax, peace of mind, how meditation comes into those basic teachings of what the Buddha taught to his disciples. Meditation takes many different forms in Buddhism. It's a misunderstanding that it's always shunyata, emptiness meditation. In Tibetan Buddhism, it's very visual. Other forms of early Buddhism, it can be physical forms of meditation. So I think for people who have a

hard time sitting down and don't really want to do three weeks of silence and trying to find truth, just try pulling the weeds. Go out and milk the cow. So we've got these basic teachings that the Buddha teaches to his fellow ascetics, to his disciples. Do we know anything about their wanderings or the Buddha's wanderings around the Gangetic Plain in northern India, him giving out these teachings to a larger and larger crowd. Yeah, he died when he was 80 or 81. So he spent many, many years wandering, walking, and he walked all over the area of Bihar, except during the rainy season. During the rainy season, the monks would find shelter. But the idea was that they were meant to be homeless and to be

unattached to home and family. The goal is nirvana, right? The extinction of the flame, the extinction of the passions. And so you have to sort of give up these passions. It's like you want to die with your karmic bank account empty. So our impulses, our anger, our frustration, our attachment, our attachment to friends and family, our children, our beloved, those things that generates attachment and to let go of that is hard. And so the first step was this idea, if you want to extinguish the flame and find the peace of nirvana, you're going to have to let go and be without a home. So yeah, he spent many, many years wandering. And finally, in his very old age, a man offered him a meal of probably pork. We're not sure. Some people have tried to argue that

it was truffles. And he had dysentery and he died from dysentery. With so many of these larger-than-life figures from ancient history, we have so many stories and legendary stories surrounding them. Does he have any supposed last words or famous last words that are applied to him? His disciple, Ananda, the one who remembered his words, said, well, what are we going to do when you're gone? And the Buddha said, well, he who sees me sees the Dharma. He who sees the Dharma sees me. It's not about me. It's not about me.

It's about the teaching. So if you take refuge, if you become a Buddhist, you take refuge in the community and you take refuge in the Buddha, his example, and you take refuge in the teachings. Well, there you go. There you go. Mary, this has been fascinating on the origins of Buddhism. We haven't really even got to Shokan and the real rise of this religion, this way of thinking in the following centuries. But as we are just focusing on the origins, we can certainly still kind of delve on the death of the Buddha, the immediate aftermath, and I guess also the latter stages of the Buddha's life and the spreading of his teachings with his disciples. It begs the question, do we know how popular Buddhism is during this early stage? And is it more popular with particular parts of society and less popular with others? I can imagine there's a clash with, let's say, the Brahmin priests. Yeah, I think there are instances of debates between Brahmins and the Buddha. But his teaching was very popular

with the merchant class. It was popular with kings. He let anybody come up to him and participate. He was reluctant to allow fully ordained nuns, but he did finally agree. So the Sangha is made up of monks and nuns. His teachings were very popular for people who had been sidelined by the Brahmins. And this idea that you don't have to have somebody interpret everything for you. You don't have to pay someone to do a sacrifice for you. You can actually work on all this stuff yourself. You can imagine what it was like during the Reformation, you know, when suddenly the Bible was translated out of Latin and people

could read it and sort of interpret it for themselves. It caused a revolution in society. And so I think in the same way, this must have been very threatening to people in power. Absolutely, Mary. And as you hinted at there, so we see Buddhism, it evolves, it really rises over the following centuries. But you can really see, therefore, in the story of the Buddha, can't you, and emerging out of these challenges that were being posted of Vedic culture at that time, that although there is this pushback, it emerges out of pushback, and no doubt there'll be pushback to it. But what the Buddha does, and his teachings, and what also his disciples do. Can we say this lays the foundations, this is the basis, this is the brickwork for the rapid spread of Buddhism, not just across the Indian subcontinent,

but also across the world in the following centuries? Yeah, I think it broke down a lot of barriers for people. And it was kinder and gentler than Vedic traditions. It was more open than some of the ascetic traditions. So when the Buddha was dying, his disciples kept saying as he was dying, what should we do? They were concerned about how his body should be treated, how his death should be dealt with. And he said, treat me as if you would treat a Chakravartin, a king, a wheel turner. So he comes full circle in his own life to say, all right, I was not a king, but I was a wheel turner. I changed perceptions. So in that sense, that began the whole cult of the stupa. And in forms of Buddhism that are primarily an iconic,

and Buddhism was really an iconic until the second century AD, there was the cult of the stupa and the stupa represented the body of the Buddha, his teachings. And it also referenced back to the idea of the sacred tree, the axis, the notion of circumambulation around a central point, all those things were brought together in the cremation mound after his cremation. And then his ashes were divided up. They were given to a number of North Indian kings. And eventually, the ashes were divided, the relics were divided up and spread all over the Buddhist world. And so here in Sri Lanka, for example, the great shrine at Kandy is said to have a truth of the Buddha. So although in Hinduism, of course, anything to do with the body is defiled,

it's inauspicious. But this was another way that Buddhism broke away from Hinduism and this emphasis on purity and impurity and so on. This idea that even in death, the Buddha's bodily relics have value and his teachings have value. Well, Mary, that was absolutely fascinating, an incredible deep delve into the origins of Buddhism. I'd love to see in the future about what follows next. We've hinted at the name of Ashoka a few times already and how he has a significant influence in the rise of Buddhism over the following centuries. But for now, it just goes to me to say, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today. Well, thank you for the opportunity. It was a

wonderful experience. Well, there you go. There was Dr. Mary Storm on the podcast for today's episode, all about the origins of Buddhism. I hope you enjoyed the episode. We've never really done an origins of a particular religion before, so it'd be great to get your feedback, to hear what you thought about this episode, and also our newest venture to ancient India,

to the Indian subcontinent. We must return and do more on ancient India in the near future. But I hope you enjoyed the episode today. Now, last things for me, you know what I'm going to say. If you're still here now, then you know what I'm going to say and you love me saying it. And that is once again, if you love the ancients, if you've been enjoying the ancients podcast episodes and you want to help us out you want to help us as we continue our mission to share these incredible stories from our distance past with you with as many people as possible well you know what you can do you can leave us a lovely rating on apple podcast on spotify wherever you get your podcast

from and you know let us know your thoughts let us know your thoughts good thoughts are more appreciated but if you've got bad thoughts as well we love hearing about them that's how we get better that's how i get better you know i look at back at myself three or four years ago when starting the podcast episodes and how much of a different kind of person i was less experienced and i think let's fair to say a bit more raw too it's a fascinating journey for myself as well as for everyone else involved. I digress. If you want to help us out just leave us a lovely rating

on Apple Podcasts on Spotify wherever you get your podcasts from. It greatly helps us as we continue to spread these incredible stories

with you and as many people as possible. But that's enough rambling on from me and I'll see you in the next episode.