The Ancients - The Sahara: Traders and Travellers

Episode Date: October 26, 2023

Stretching across from the Atlantic Ocean to the Red Sea, Northern Africa is dominated by the Sahara Desert. The largest hot desert in the world, it's an indomitable force. So how did Ancient Communities manage to traverse it, and who were the people organising and participating in such a feat?In this episode, Tristan welcomes Sir Barry Cunliffe to the podcast, to talk about his new work on the history of the Sahara and those who lived there. Looking at how different communities and cultures tackled the sandy dunes, from Carthaginians and Egyptians, through to the seafaring travellers recorded by ancient authors - what do we know about the Sahara, and what can learn from the ancient civilisations who used to live there?Discover the past with exclusive history documentaries and ad-free podcasts presented by world-renowned historians from History Hit. Watch them on your smart TV or on the go with your mobile device. Get 50% off your first 3 months with code ANCIENTS sign up now for your 14-day free trial here.You can take part in our listener survey here.

Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and in today's episode we're talking about that expansive sea of sand that is the Sahara Desert and looking at how much of a barrier it really was for communities that lived along the Mediterranean coastline thousands of years ago. We're going to be talking about traders and travellers who ventured deeper into Africa, varying from Egyptians to Carthaginians to Greeks and Romans. We're going to be looking at stories of people

circumnavigating the desert via ship, but also we're going to explore the overland routes, the people who lived in the Sahara Desert, such as the Garamantes, and how they helped facilitate trade over this expansive sea of sand for communities both in sub-Saharan Africa and along the southern Mediterranean coastline. Now to talk through all of this, I was delighted a couple of months ago to head up to Oxford to interview the one and only Sir Barry Cunliffe. Now Barry is a legend in the field of British archaeology. He has written countless books and his most recent one

is all about the history of the Sahara Desert. I really do hope you enjoy and here's Barry. Barry, it is wonderful to have you back on the podcast. It's great to be back. Now, last time we talked to you all about Brittany both during the Roman period and before that extraordinary part of northwest France. We're going a bit further south today the story of the Sahara but also exploration these traders and travelers who established these incredible connections between the land north of the Sahara and south

of the Sahara more than 2,000 years ago. It's mind-boggling. Yes, we tend to think of the Sahara as the big divide. And when people write about Africa, they really write about either North Africa and the Mediterranean or Africa south of the Sahara. But the really interesting thing, I think, is just this connection across the Sahara, not only across the Sahara, but also around the edges of the Sahara, down the Nile or down the Red Sea or along the Atlantic coast. But essentially what the evidence shows us is that the Sahara was not at all a barrier. I call it the Sea of Sound, as indeed people did in the past. And it's like a sea. It encourages connectivity rather than stops connectivity. We'll delve into that, both the maritime connections and those overland routes too. But first off, this was something I found

really interesting. If we go deep into the prehistory, the background. The Sahara, we think of it now today as this inhospitable desert. However, it wasn't always a desert. No, that is something that I think people don't realize, and they should, that it's only been a desert for the last 3,000 odd years. And before that, it was a very pleasant place with rivers and wild animals. We know about this from archaeological scientific evidence, also from rock paintings. People living at that time painted in the most obscure parts of what are now the most obscure parts of the desert, painted or carved animals like hippopotami and animals of that sort who could only have lived in very mild conditions. And it's been climate change, a rapid climate change, and then this sort of plateau of a climate that we're in at the moment, which has created the desert. But before that, most certainly not.

And it's really interesting, isn't it? Because the Sahara, it's now becoming a really interesting and exciting area of the world for people, let's say, studying human evolution and looking for fossils from hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions of years ago. But as you've highlighted there, we can also actually look at this area for that period just before the desertification to have a look at those prehistoric, Neolithic, maybe Mesolithic communities who would have also been living there within the last 10,000 years. Yes, yes, indeed. And we can trace the movement, the advance of domesticated animals through the Sahara, coming from the north into the Sahara and through the Sahara to the south in this period. And we can trace also the domesticated grains that we get, wheat and barley essentially

from the north coming down, but also the spread of grains that are cultivated in the Sahara, south of the Sahara, moving north. So through the archaeological evidence, it's possible to see these connectivities very early on, coming in both directions. And quickly explain this whole process of desertification when we get past 3000 BC. If I'm correct, it's not the same process everywhere. Does it happen quicker in some areas and slower in others? Yes, it is not the same process. It's a very complicated process. But essentially what happens is that the horizontal, if you like, bands of vegetation move north or south, depending on the change of climate. So at some stages, the desert bit was

very, very narrow and very simple to cross. But gradually, the desert band has widened. But in the south, it's been a much more complicated process in the edge of the Sahel, much more complicated. And you've got periods of desertification and then periods of more humid atmospheres and so on. This is all based on the movement of the wind systems and so on coming from the Atlantic. So when do we start to see connections being created through this desert area of the world after 3000 BC? I think probably, the evidence isn't very good, but probably sort of fairly early on that people were making trips into the desert and learning the desert and learning to use the desert. The question is, when do they start coalescing movements from the south, particularly from the Niger Valley moving north,

or from the North African coastal strip moving south. Herodotus, writing around 450 BC, that sort of time, describes this tribe Nassimones in the north of Africa, somewhere sort of Libya way, some young men there deciding to go south. And he lays out their journey. And it's quite clear they get down to a great river that is flowing from west to east. It's got crocodiles and things in it. And they get very excited about this. And this is the River Niger, most certainly. They're getting to the Niger Bend. Then there's speculation about whether this is, in fact, the upper reaches of the Nile, because it's got the same fauna in it. So there's a lot of speculation about that going on. And this is, so these people were doing it, what, about 5th century BC or something of that sort. So a deliberate attempt to find out what's in the

south, move south. This is normal, I think, everywhere in the world. There are people who want to know what's beyond, what's beyond, what's beyond, and are prepared to either get on a ship and sail out to find out if there is anything in the ocean, or to go into the desert to find out if there is anything on the other side of the desert. And so to learn about these early examples of exploration, is literature our main source of evidence? And what types of literature do we have surviving for it? Literature gives us places and people, and that helps. Archaeology gives us distributions of pot shards which are more difficult to interpret. But I think literature really sets us going. And one of the, this is edge of Africa, admittedly, but one of the very interesting peoples are the Phoenicians who emerge as a naval power, start to emerge about 1100, just a little bit before BC. They live

on the coast of the Levant, which is now more or less Lebanon, with a bit north and south. They're interesting because there are major towns of the Bronze Age there. They face the sea and they're backed by the mountains of Lebanon. So they've got very little hinterland. So their natural world is out there in the sea. And we know that they were working with the Israelites in the 10th century BC because the Bible tells us so. Hiram, the king of Tyre, one of these Phoenician cities, working with Solomon, the king of the Israelites. And they plan major expeditions overseas. This comes from the Bible and other sources. Major expeditions. One major expedition is down the Red Sea to Ophir, wherever that is. Some people think it's India.

It's more likely to be the end of the Red Sea, Yemen and Somalia, that sort of area. And they were bringing back spices and incense and things from the incense coast. And at the same time, they're sending ships across the Mediterranean and out through the Straits of Gibraltar to contact the Tartessians, who occupied essentially southern Spain, a very metal-rich area, and metals were very important at this time. And we've got this from the Bible. And recently, in the last five years or so, wonderful archaeological evidence under the city, modern city of Huelva, where the presence of Phoenicians is absolutely obvious. You've got Phoenician pottery of the same kind as in Tyre and so on.

So there they were out into the Atlantic and down on the edge of the Indian Ocean by 900 BC. They are the great pioneers. And they're the ones who sort of take on the exploration of Africa. They are the ones. And as you say, they are the prime civilization when it comes to a topic like traversing the Sahara, but in the case you mentioned earlier, of not going overland across it, but circumnavigating it by going around via these maritime routes. That's absolutely right. We've got, again, Herodotus, a wonderful source. He says that the pharaoh of Egypt, Necho, who was around about 600 BC,

was interested in the shape of Africa. So he hired a group of Phoenician sailors in the Red Sea and said, circumnavigate Africa and come back through the Straits of Gibraltar and sail through the Mediterranean back to Egypt. And according to Herodotus, they did. I've actually got it here in front of me, the text of Herodotus. It tells us a lot. It's a fascinating one. He says that Necho sent to sea a number of ships manned by Phoenicians with orders to make for the Pillars of Hercules, that's the Straits of Gibraltar, and return to Egypt through them, and by the Mediterranean. The Phoenicians took their departure from Egypt by way of the Red Sea, and they sailed into the Southern Ocean, the Indian Ocean. When autumn came, they went ashore, wherever they might happen to be,

and having sown a tract of land with corn, they waited untilore, wherever they might happen to be, and having sown a tract of land with corn, they waited until the grain was fit to cut. Having reaped it, they again set sail. And thus it came to pass that two whole years went by, and it was not until the third year that they doubled the pillars of Hercules and made good their voyage home. And this is, I think, the crucial bit. He says, on their return, they declared, I, for my part, do not believe them, but perhaps others may, that in sailing around Libya, that's Africa, sailing around Libya, they

had the sun upon their right hand. In this way, the extent of Libya was discovered. Now, he says, they said they had the sun on their right hand. In this way, the extent of Libya was discovered. Now, he says, they said they had the sun on their right hand. I don't believe it. He doesn't believe the story. But this is Herodotus. But in fact, if you think of it, Herodotus thought of the world as flat. So he couldn't conceive of how the sun could have been on their right hand. He didn't understand it was a globe with an equator. It goes south of the equator, the sun is in a different position. So if they sailed around the south of Africa, the sun would be on their right hand. So by putting in that little statement that he didn't believe, he's more or less proved that they did sail around

the southern side of Africa. It's a very neat proof that, if you need a proof, that that journey probably did take place. And it's further testament, isn't it, to the great skill of these Venetian sailors, especially when you consider they would have passed if they did do it. A place is very difficult, a place to navigate, such as the Cape of Good Hope. Yes. All the way around. Yes.

Yes. All the way around. Lots of different peoples, lots of different climatic zones that they went through. But it's just a reminder, that's one of the stories we know about. How many stories are there we don't know about where these people were exploring? Exactly. Let's delve into another one of these Phoenician exploration stories that we also know about. And this is one that I know we've done a lot of work around. And this is the story of Hanno. Now, Barry, who was Hanno? Hanno is called King, but it probably means a member of the royal family. And he was a member

of the royal family of Carthage. Now, Carthage is, of course, a Phoenician settlement in the middle of the North African coast, very, very close to Tunis. And his date is about 500 BC. So a member of the aristocracy, and he decides to explore. We know about this because he explored the west coast of Africa. He came back and set up an inscription in the Temple of Baal in Carthage. That would have been in Phoenician. And that was transcribed into Greek. And that was transcribed and re-transcribed and re-transcribed until a document of the 14th century. So we don't have the original Greek. We don't have the original Phoenician. But we have this 14th century document. So in the re-transcriptions, there would have been losses and bits left out and mistakes made. So we don't have the exact words. We have some words that

reflect it. It's actually a very short document. It's only about 600 words long. And it describes how he set off. The first part of his journey was to found colonies along the Atlantic coast of what is now Morocco, essentially. And it's said that he took 60 pentacontours. Pentacontour is a large, sleek ship rowed by 50 people. So he took 60 of these ships and carrying it said 30,000 men and women plus all their grain and other supplies. Now, I mean, those figures must be wrong. You couldn't get 30,000 men into 60 Pentecost. The ships were only 35 meters or so long.

So the figures are wrong. But essentially, he took a lot of ships with a lot of people and supplies, and then hops around the coast of Morocco, the Atlantic coast of Morocco, founding or more likely refounding cities that existed. So taking new supplies, taking new settlers and so on, founding some new cities. So here is a deliberate attempt to colonize a bit of Morocco. And then the whole mood changes to one of exploration. Now, I just wonder whether what we've got here are two trips conflated, that he was first just commissioned to do this recolonization. Then he thought it was a good idea to go a bit further and find out what is there. So we might have two stories sort of stuck together. And then

it is very confusing, but there is enough in what survives to give some sort of geography of his trip south down the coast of Africa. First of all, he comes to this river Lyxos, which is almost certainly the Dra River in Morocco, which is the one that's, as it were, south of the Atlas Mountains and before you get to the desert. So the southernmost river of North Africa, as it were, coming into the Atlantic. And he describes the Nixiti and the people there, how they were pleasant pastoralists and so on. But beyond them, he doesn't say in which direction, there were the Ethiopians. And that's a general term that they use for black people. So he was aware of some black populations of inland from this area. He takes on board some of these Nexiti as people who know a bit of the coast and can translate for it. Then he sails

south. And we're given the numbers of days sailing, but they're probably wrong anyway, because it's easy to get figures wrong when you're transliterating. So they sail south, and it does say in one source two days. It might be a mistake for nine days, or some people think it's a mistake for 12 days. But south for 12 days, past a desert, and then they come to this big river. Oh, they come to an island called Kierne. Now, where that is, is very difficult to say. I'm beginning to think that it probably is most likely Anguin Island, which is off the coast of Mauritania now. It describes it as an island in a bay. And Anguin Island is an island in a bay very well protected by rocky promontories and so on. And in fact, it was used by the Portuguese when they were doing this trip 2,000 years or later. So it's an obvious stopping place. Anyway, he talks about

Kearney as the island. And then he sails south again from there. And this is where it gets really confusing. Comes up against some big rivers, and it looks as though he might have gone back to Kierne and then gone back south again. But it's all very tightly written, and you can interpret it in lots of ways. But one of the big rivers he comes to has hippopotami and crocodiles in it and so on, the usual sort of thing. And that is almost certainly the Senegal River.

I think most people will accept that. And he talks about two rivers. The other one might be the Gambia River, which is south of the Senegal River. So he's essentially hopped over the desert bit, and he's now in the bit south of the desert where the vegetation is quite different and he explores these he comes across people who throw stones at him and so on and then they sail on now how far they sail on is anyone's guess but they describe things that you can't really relate to reality. And they describe islands where he hears music, flutes, and cymbals and so on being played. Then another part where the smell of incense is blowing off

the land. It's this sort of thing. And then he gets to what is a great mountain, essentially a volcano. He describes it. He calls it the chariot of fire. And where this chariot of fire, where this volcano is, is in debate, but it might well be Mount Cameron. So he's sailed right around the south side of the projection of Africa before the coast turns south. And the last thing he does is to go onto an island where he sees a lot of wild, hairy humans, and he chases some of them. Most of them are women. And he chases some of them, and they bite and scratch him, or his men. And he captures and kills three of them, and skins them, and brings the skins eventually back to Carthage, where they were still known to be by the time the Romans captured Carthage in 146. And he calls them

gorillas. Now, were they humans, or were they actually what we would now call a gorilla? The word was used in, I think it was 1847, when people exploring Gabon found what we now call a gorilla. And they knew of Hanno's description of these hairy things that look rather like humans. So they used Hanno's word gorilla to describe the animal we now call gorilla. That's quite a nice story, isn't it? Whether Hanno was seeing what we call gorillas, or whether he was seeing chimpanzees or one of the others, or whether they were hairy humans, we don't know, but that's how we got our word gorilla. And having done that, then it

suddenly breaks off. He says, run out of supplies, so he turned around and went home. And that's it. So it's a very interesting document, very short, as I say, that you can interpret in various ways. And some people think that he did actually get to Cameroon, and I think that's probably the simplest explanation. Or others think he didn't get quite so far along the coast. But he certainly got down beyond Senegal by virtue of his description of those rivers. You can ask so many questions from it, can't you? And before we see what perhaps were the consequences of that great exploration by Hanno from what has survived, also what must have preceded it with the Carthaginians and the Phoenicians? You mentioned near the start,

is it the Lyxetai? Yes. South of the Atlas Mountains and you mentioned how Hanno obtained a translator, someone who could speak the local language but also Phoenician that surely emphasizes therefore that they already had those links there and in the founding of the colony so before Hanno's time they knew at least quite a bit about this area of Africa bordering the Atlantic Ocean perhaps certainly north of the Sahara and perhaps a little bit south of the Sahara and And then it's almost, as you've highlighted, Hanno then decides to go a step further, take the next step and then say, OK, we know this much so far.

We've got these trade contacts already. Let's see how far we can go. Let's see how much else there is. We may all have all of these stories of our ancestors who once upon a time circumnavigated this continent too. So they have a rich heritage that Hanno and the lot are then taking to the next level almost. That's absolutely right. We underestimate, I think, how much knowledge there was. And it is most likely that Hanno knew about the circumnavigation, the story of the circumnavigation.

We know from the archaeological evidence that the Phoenician settlements before Hanno had got down to the island of Mogadour, which is just off the coast of Essuaria, that lovely, lovely seaside Moroccan town now. And there is this island where Phoenician remains have been found, including that of a lion, which they must have captured, presumably for its skin or for trade or something, and ivory and so on, which they must have captured, presumably for its skin or for trade or something, and ivory and so on. So from the archaeological evidence, there was this regular trading centre on the island of Mogador, and probably trading centres all the way down the coast that far. And those traders on that island will have had contacts with the people inland.

I think one of the things we underestimate, and strangely it isn't mentioned by Hanno, is the gold trade, because there was a major supply of gold in the Sahara, more or less Bali now. And that gold, we know, was going across the desert to the Mediterranean ports and being traded. So Hanno, okay, there is the challenge of what lies south, but there's also the challenge of can I get that gold before it gets to the coast? Is there another way in which I can tap into the gold? Now, he doesn't mention gold at all, but some people have suggested, and I think it's a very sensible suggestion, that when he wrote this description, sensible suggestion that when he wrote this description, the original description, which was either engraved on papyri or something in the Temple of Baal in Carthage, he edited it so as

to keep all the crucial bits out of it so no one could easily follow. He kept it done. He didn't say there were these riches to be had. He sort of kept it for his own people. It's an interesting possibility, but this is how these things work. And the Portuguese in the 15th century are really reproducing this because there they are stuck in Portugal, in the Algarve and that sort of area, Cape Sagarish. And they're sort of boxed in a bit by the Spaniards and they're not really looking to the Mediterranean, they're looking out to the Atlantic and if you sat on Cape Sagres and looked south, it would be right along the African coast. That would be your natural way to go

and that was the way that the Portuguese explorers began to go when they wanted to get right around Africa into the Indian Ocean to get at all the spices and the goodies of the Indian Ocean. So they were drawn south along the coast of Portugal. They did go to Anguin Island. That was the obvious place to stop. And they were interested, first of all, in tapping into the gold trade. So it's history repeating itself is a silly phrase, but it's geography forcing people or encouraging people to think in the same way at different times. We'll definitely go to those overland trade routes in a bit, but very quickly. I know it is

very much speculation and there's nothing for certain yet. But if, as with the Portuguese, they're looking that way and that's the natural way. Could Phoenicians potentially have therefore also seen in the distance or heard of those islands off that Atlantic coastline of Africa, such as the Canary Islands or perhaps the Azores? I think they could indeed. They would have almost certainly have seen the Canary Islands and been drawn to look at them. The Azores is an interesting one. There is on the island of Corvo, I think it is, one of the Azores, a hoard of what was said to be Carthaginian coins dating to the 3rd century BC, was said to have been found in the 18th century and has disappeared. A good numismatist looked at it and recorded them. If that is genuine, then it is evidence of Carthaginian presence by the 3rd century B.C. And there is some evidence just beginning to come out

to suggest that there may well have been settlement on the Azores before the Portuguese got there. there may well have been settlement on the Azores before the Portuguese got there. So that's a very interesting open question. How far did they get out into the Atlantic? With that maritime getting around the Sahara now, we focus a lot on the Phoenicians. But what you also highlighted earlier there, Barry, was that, of course, by this time too, there have been these extraordinary overland routes established across the Sahara. And if I'm correct, have they been facilitated by these extraordinary local groups of people who lived in that area of the Sahara?

Yes, exactly right. There were people living in bits of the Sahara. We think of the Sahara as just sand, but it isn't. There are areas of mountains and so on, and there's areas of higher precipitation where you could work a living even under the desert conditions. And these various tribes and the Tureg are a modern version of what was going on, descendants of people living there a long, long time ago. And people of this kind would have had a nomadic way of life based on oasis sources and so on. And it's by stringing these oases together that you get a trade route. There is a trade route described by Herodotus that takes you from the Nile to the Siwa oasis, and then to a whole series of other oases in a big arc right the way down to well into the Sahara

and probably as far as the Niger Bend. This is where names such as the Nassimones and the Garamantes come into their own, don't they? These extraordinary and actually really sophisticated civilizations that managed to live in this quite difficult area of the world. Yes. The ones we know about most are the Garimantes, who lived way south of the Libyan coast, right in the desert, where they were able to manipulate the supplies of water underground by very complicated systems of channeling and so on. complicated systems of channeling and so on. They dug wells right down to the aquifer. So they were able to get water and live there. And they were essentially the traders through whom all kinds of people were passing. When we get into the Roman period, the Garamantes were very important in the Roman period. They were the main people linking the Roman north in the Mediterranean to

sub-Saharan Africa. And that was the route along which many, many slaves were coming into the Roman world from Africa. I forget the numbers now, but you can work them out roughly. It was a lot of slaves a year passing through the territory of the Garamantes. And there are traveler's tales of Garamantes going slave hunting down into Ethiopia, which is Black Africa. So there were these groups who had honed their way of life to this particular ecological niche, and it was all working well for them. They were the ones that made this connectivity possible because of their own movements, north and south and west. Let's say that one of these trade routes starts at Niger River or perhaps Lake Chad.

It's facilitated overland through these oases, through these settlements, either Garamantes and Nassimones. Before the time of the Romans, so if we still focus on, let's say, 2,500 years ago, what were these prime cities on the coast that they would go to? So you've got Carthage, but you've also got Greek cities as well. Yes. Yes. Carthage, which is founded probably about 800. Traditionally, it's founded just before 800. Archaeologically, it looks like that 800 BC is about the date. So Carthage is a major site in the Bay of Tunis. It was important for the Phoenicians because it was essentially halfway home for them, coming along the North African coast from the Atlantic back to Phoenicia.

And it was a good stopping point. Also, that part of the coast, Tunisia, was really a very attractive place to live. It was highly productive of corn and other fruits, and a number of other products were coming through it. So you've got Carthage there. The Greeks, there's that wonderful story of the people from the island of Thera, Santorini now. Thera suffered from a series of very bad harvests and it couldn't support its population. So the Greeks on Thera drew lots and said, you've lost, get on a boat and go and found a colony in Africa. And they set out for the coast of what is now Cyrenaica in Libya and founded a colony on an

island and it didn't work and then quite complex but then the locals said well if you come inland you know we'll show you a good place and they did and they founded Cyrene which was a very flourishing Greek town in Cyrenaica which was one of the fertile and more congenial parts of the North African coast. It is one of those overlooked jewels of the ancient Mediterranean isn't it Cyrene at its height this was one of the prime cities in the ancient world. Yes, and it's a wonderful monument now, a brilliant city. And you can see how it sits in the landscape, what a congenial landscape it was for them. And of course, it can control all this fertile part of Cyrenaica,

but it can also tap into the resources coming from the south. It's quite possible that it tapped into the gold sources sometime in the fourth century BC, because they started issuing coins in gold at that stage. And before that, the supply of gold was very minimal. So that suggestion that they were beginning to get gold coming from south of the Sahara through the Sahara to Cyrene, about 400 BC, that again speaks of the connectivities between the Sahara and the North African coast. And we know that the Cyreneans, they had contact with the Nassimone. And the other, let's also mention, there are those other Greek city-states that are

ultimately founded right next to us, like Barca and New Hesperides and so on. And they also dig in to that connectivity south of the Sahara. So we've got gold. There are infamously slaves on this overland trade. Do we know of any other early commodities at this time? Ivory was one. And coming from the Atlantic coast were ostrich egg shells, which were prized. We find them in archaeological context as well. Coming from the coast, again, the Atlantic coast was purple dye from the Murex shell, which was very valuable indeed for dyeing clothing into this deep reddish purple colour. So all those commodities were flowing. From the other end, the eastern side, coming into the Red Sea was African

wood, all kinds of high quality wood, because Egypt was depleted of wood. So wood coming from Africa to places like Adullis, that's on the coast of Eritrea now, on the Red Sea coast, a major town which was able to tap into Red Sea trade and overland trade coming up from Ethiopia, essentially what is real Ethiopia now. And getting wood coming in, these quality woods are mentioned several times. There you go. We don't have time to really delve deep into the story of the Romans next, but it sounds actually we've really covered the arguably most fascinating part of this ancient connection to North and South of the Sahara. Because by the time the Romans come, I'm sure that they add more to it. But it sounds like by that time, these trade connections, both overland and via the sea, have already been established and are thriving. And it's that which the Romans are able to take really great advantage

of. Yes, absolutely right. But what is, I think, surprising to me is how little advantage they take of it. They use the Garamantes and they use the Red Sea, but always through second hand, through other people. They're not very adventurous themselves. There are two or three attempts early on in the Roman period to explore, or generals take some people down south and turn around and come back. The only really interesting one, I think, is under Nero. And it's not very well known, but it does sound as though Nero was trying to find a way down into Africa by sending a group of explorers down the Nile to get right down to the end of the Nile to see what lies beyond. Nothing seems to have come of that. But the Romans really were more content

to stay in the congenial fringes of the Mediterranean and to let other people do the dirty work of trade for them. There we go, therefore. You've covered the Romans right there and then by right at the end. This has been brilliant. And it is such an extraordinary topic to explore, the Sahara and how, as you say, we envisage it, as you mentioned at the start, we envisage it as this barrier. But no, and sometimes we underestimate these ancient societies. But more than 2,000 years ago, Phoenicians and Greeks and other peoples too, they are making those journeys, either from south of the Sahara to North Africa, or from North Africa to South Sahara. It really makes you take another step back, doesn't it? It does. I think our cognitive geographies are limited. We've got to open

our minds. And the best way to do it is to look at the past and see how people in the past had a bigger vision in many ways of the world than some of us have now. Absolutely right. Barry, this has been an absolute pleasure. Last but certainly not least, your book covering all of this and so much more is called? It's called Facing the Sea of Sand. Fantastic. Always a pleasure. And it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast. Thank you for inviting me. Well, there you go. There was the one and only Sir Barry Cunliffe talking you through tales of traders and travellers who ventured either around or through the Sahara Desert in antiquity.

I hope you enjoyed the episode. It's always wonderful getting the legend that is Sir Barry Cunliffe on the show. Now, last things from me, you know what I'm going to say, but if you have enjoyed this episode and you are enjoying the ancients generally and you want to help us out, well, you know what I'm going to say but if you have enjoyed this episode and you are enjoying the ancients generally and you want to help us out well you know what you can do you can leave us a lovely rating on apple podcast on spotify wherever you get your podcast from it really helps us as we continue to grow the ancients and take it to even greater heights to share these amazing stories from our distance past with you and with as many people as possible.

But that's enough from me, and I will see you in the next episode.