The Ancients - The Symposium: How To Party Like An Ancient Greek

Episode Date: April 3, 2022

In Ancient Greece, the symposium was no ordinary after-dinner drinking party, but one in which the Hellenic men of society got together to wine, recline and philosophise. They took various forms depending on the whim of the leader of the symposium - the symposiarch - but were exclusively male affairs (aside from the occasional courtesan or two).In this episode Tristan is joined by Michael Scott, Professor of Classics and Ancient History at the University of Warwick, to find out more about the soirée of booze, babes and slaves that was the Ancient Greek symposium.We mention a few different vessel types. Here are some visuals of the different vessels we mention:The kylix / kylikesThe kraterThe oinochoeThe psykterThe plateYou might also like: How to Party Like a RomanWarning: a couple of cases of mild language.For more Ancients content, subscribe to our Ancients newsletter here.If you'd like to learn even more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today! To download, go to Android or Apple store.

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There was normally lots of drinking involved. How much drinking depended on what kind of night the leader of the symposium, the symposiarch, wanted. Was it going to be a heavy night like those weekdays in Shoreditch that sometimes happen at history hit? Or was it going to be a lighter night with less drinking and more talk around other things such as philosophy? To talk through all of this, I was delighted a few weeks back to head up to the University of Warwick to interview Professor Michael Scott. Michael, he's a hero of mine. You may well know the name. He's appeared on several TV shows over the years and also on many podcasts. Never the Ancients podcast. This is a debut from Michael on, of course, the best ancient history podcast around. It was great to finally get him on the show.

It was a really fun chat and I hope you enjoy. So without further ado, to talk all about the Ancient Greek Symposium, here's Michael. Michael, it's great to have you on the podcast for the first time on the Ancients. It's been too long. It's a pleasure to be with you, Justin. Thank you for coming up to the University of Warwick and to our brand new antiquities room here. It is quite something to have the actual artefact around us and some replicas. Absolutely, yes. I think it's worth saying at the beginning, isn't it? Everything we're going to do is I chuck a vessel to you and you chuck it back to me. These

are all replicas. We're not doing anything with real ancient pieces today, but everything you see around you are all ancient originals that have come to us here at the university. Now, these are hinting at the topic today. The Greek symposium. How's a party like an ancient Greek? I mean, this seems to be one of the most iconic things that we can now associate with ancient Greek culture. Yeah, so the symposium, if you break down the Greek word, it just means to drink together. It's kind of one of the essentials of human culture, I think we might argue, right? It kind of has gone through time and space, and today we might do it in the pub over a beer or a glass of wine or something stronger, maybe if it's been a really tough day. And back in the ancient Greek world, this was, as you say, a really important moment when people came together,

normally in people's homes. So not out in the pubs or the cafes or the bars, but actually in people's homes and in a particular space within people's homes that was called in ancient Greek, the Andron, which translates as the man's space. And that pretty much tells you what you need to know about what the symposium was. It was an all-male affair. So only men could get in on this kind of drinking together action and having this drinking party together. And did these symposiums, obviously we think of the ancient Greek world stretching from the Black Sea to eastern Spain, did they occur all across the Greek world in antiquity? Yeah, wherever there was a community who really wanted to show themselves as being Greek, you know, and ascribing to Greek culture, then one of the clearest things you could do

would be to host a symposium to show off your Greekness. Now, I mean, in different parts of the wider Greek world spread around the Mediterranean, there might be slightly different rules. So, you know, if you went up into Macedon, for instance, the home of Alexander the Great and Philip of Macedon, there were slightly different rules about the age ranges that were allowed to take part in the symposium from, say, if you were in Athens, for instance. And we know it wasn't just the Greeks as well. So the Etruscans, those living in Italy before the Romans, had their own version of the symposium as well, which again was very different from a Greek symposium because both women and men were

allowed to take part in it. But it just goes to show that all of the cultures that were kind of dotted around the Mediterranean, living like frogs around a pond, all had a version of this kind of coming together, drinking together. And that's so interesting because we see, for instance, like in late Iron Age Britain, like just before the Romans arrived, there's already this big focus among the elite on drinking, on feasting. So is this perhaps an example of how variations of the symposium, shall we say, you know, differences certainly spread further than the Greek world in antiquity? It goes back to that point about it being a natural kind of evolution of how communities

come together and how they celebrate their togetherness and in fact, their identification as a community. I mean, one of the things, you know, we might talk about with the Greek Symposium is how very much there was a strongly defined line about who was allowed to attend, who was in the group, who was in the circle, who was in the gang, and then kind of how you were supposed to behave kind of when you were in the gang to really show off that you deserved to belong to this community. So they were a great way of ascribing and performing your identity as a member of a particular group. So in that respect, whatever the rules were, you know, and however it took place, that worked for Iron Age Britain, it might have worked for the Etrurians, it worked for the Greeks, it worked later for the Romans as well, and for many, many other cultures as well.

Well, you mentioned it just there. So who was allowed to attend these synagogues? If we were basing ourselves in Athens, right, in classical Athens, then we're talking about all men. And we're talking about people who are recognized as adult males are the ones who get to come. And of course, we're talking about citizen males. So we're certainly not talking about foreigners coming in to live in Athens, or the many and large populations of resident foreigners that were in Athens, they wouldn't be getting in on the symposium. This was about, you know, are you a Greek citizen? Are you an Athenian citizen of adult age? If so, you were allowed to come and be

part of a symposium. And crucially, if you were an adult male Greek citizen, Athenian citizen, you could then recline on the couch. And it was the reclining, being allowed to recline, that was the ultimate symbol that you were part of the gang and the group. If you were a not yet old enough male, but on the verge, you were starting your training, if you like, your symposium training, you could come to a symposium, but you would have to sit up. You wouldn't be allowed to recline. So that kind of distinguished the men from the boys, quite literally, within the group. And then it would be up to the owner of the house, the person who was hosting the symposium to pick their special

guests, those people they wanted to attend. These were not massive affairs. The Andron rooms that we have from excavated Greek houses, we're talking about couches put around three of the walls and then obviously the entrance kind of on the fourth, maybe something along the lines of seven to nine couches, maybe a few more, two people per couch. So we're not talking more than somewhere mid-teens to mid-twenties in terms of the number of people at a symposium. It's quite an elite, exclusive affair. I mean, it's so interesting to what you said there. So the iconic reclining that we do normally associate with the Greek symposium and the later Roman dinner party, I guess. This isn't just for comfort. There is this idea of status very much behind it, is there? I mean, I think, you know, we get students here at the University of Warwick to kind of

assume the position of the symposium and we use these replica vases we've got today to kind of actually recreate it. And of course, today we find it really uncomfortable, you know, leaning on your left arm and sort of having to do everything then with one arm. And as a result, your entire body is on display, you know, kind of low tables and couches, your entire body is on display. And you feel physically more on view than you are in the pub, like kind of where everything up to, you know, kind of mid chest is hidden and you're sitting up straight and you've got your drink in hand. So it is for us a very uncomfortable position. But I think we have to imagine it for the ancient Greeks as being, particularly for those adult citizens that are used to going to symposia, an absolute natural position to assume. And while they're not quite,

you know, in those images we have the sort of grapes dangling and sort of, you know, eating that, they are kind of relaxing in that position and spending quite a considerable amount of time drinking, but also crucially talking, discussing with one another. And I think one of the interesting things that we find, particularly when we get the students to kind of get into that position and they're all exposed to one another, they're all on the same level with one another. Height differential doesn't make a difference. Everyone's lying out flat on the same level of couch. So suddenly there's an equality between the group and everyone's equally on display with one another. And equally, the way you're positioned, you know, you're all leaning on your left arm and you might have someone else on your couch, but they'll be leaning the opposite way to you.

Actually, it becomes much easier to have conversations as a group in the square because you're all in a square room looking at one another. So it encourages you to have kind of bigger group conversations than it does to have little one-on-one private conversations that tend to occur in the way we sit today. So it was a really interesting setup, deceptively simple in a way, but which actually encouraged people to relax, to open up and be part of a group and a part of a group conversation, to feel on the level and equal with one another, but at the same time, crucially, be on display to one another. And you mentioned the host earlier. I'm guessing that he was the figure who would decide what would happen during this symposium. Yes, he's called the symposiarch,

Arcair, the leader of the symposium. Basically, he was hosting. So he got to decide who was invited, crucially. He also got to decide what kind of symposium where would be used. And, you know, hopefully we'll come on to talk about some of the vessels that got used. But it would be his family's kind of heirloom set, or it could be a new set he'd been out to buy in the, if we're in Athens, in the Kerameikos, the potter's quarter that day. So there's a lot of active choice, you know, in terms of the images that are on these vessels as to what the symposiarch wanted to show off and talk about or make the centre of discussion. And then crucially also, the other thing the symposiarch has to do is decide how strong

the wine is going to be. Because Greek wine is not like we drink it today, sort of ready to go the moment you pop the cork on the bottle. Greek wine was made in a very, very strong form that you had to water down to make it drinkable, at least to drink it as a civilized individual. Kind of uncivilized barbarian monsters would drink their Greek wine neat, but civilized people would water it down. And the symposiarch would be the person who decided how many parts wine to how many parts water at a particular symposium, i.e. how strong the wine was going to be. The vessel that the symposiarch would use for mixing the Greek wine was called a krater. Now, this was the biggest and the main vessel of the symposium. And it was here during our chat that Michael brought out a replica crater,

life-size replica crater. It was a really big vessel. As we go back to the interview we're going to be talking about several different symposium vessel types from here on in but don't worry we'll put links to pictures of these different vessels in the episode description. Anyway that's enough from me, back to Michael and the interview. We seem to have all of this information about the Greek symposium and just before we go on to the Anyway, that's enough from me. Back to Michael and the interview. Because it conjures up for us today this idea that people have got flowers in them and they're sitting on mantelpieces. Vessels are a much better word. These are the drinking cups and jugs and vessels that made the symposium possible. And these things have survived to us in large, large numbers because people often chose to be buried with them. Chosen to be buried with your favourite beer mug or wine glass or whatever it might be.

But it just tells you how precious these things were for a family or community and how they could be handed down as heirlooms between generations. And particularly the Greeks that lived in Southern Italy and Sicily, and also their Etrurian counterparts absolutely loved this stuff. And so 80 or 90% of the symposium vessels that we have surviving have actually come out of graves in Southern Italy and Sicily. So that's how the material culture has survived to us. And we can then piece back together the drinking ware. But we also have some literary sources. And I've referred to Ebulus, obviously, so a comedy, fragments of comedy surviving.

And then crucially, we have two much more kind of serious, weighty texts. Plato. Plato wrote a text called The Symposium that's an account of an actual symposium. And you won't be too surprised to realise that although there are some fairly inebriated characters in Plato's symposium, the goal and point of Plato's symposium is to talk about philosophy and weighty issues like that. And then Xenophon, who's another writer of the 4th century BC, also wrote a text called the Symposium as well. And then we have a couple of kind of poetic surviving pieces as well, kind of eulogies and elegies by different writers that talk about the Symposium. So putting it all together, we can get this picture of a real spectrum of an event.

So a symposium could be at one end of the spectrum. So a symposium could be at one end of the spectrum, it could be a light drinking, very intellectual, very philosophical discussion forum, treating on weighty, serious issues. absolute catastrophe of a night where in which heavy drinking was encouraged there was no deep and meaningful discussion and in which added in as a bonus was a whole bunch of entertainment in the form of slaves playing musical instruments courtesans so high-end prostitutes and all sorts of fun and games that kind of get it more into the Roman orgy end of things. But crucially, the symposium could be anything along that spectrum. And different symposia from different weeks and different households would find their place along it. I mean, you mentioned all these vessels and of course, we've got so many today.

And just looking at, for instance, this one right here, you can understand why they were so valuable to the people who own them. Like the detail on some of them. And I'm sure this is the same for so many. It's just absolutely astonishing how much detail survives on so many that do survive. So these become an art form in their own right. And there are myriads of these surviving that are created by, we tend to call them artists or painters. So there would both be a potter who threw the vessel. and that is hard enough as it is. I mean, when we weren't getting these replicas made, we actually went to a modern potter who created them using kind of the traditional techniques and actually going through that process, particularly with these massive craters, they realised quite how much technical skill

was required to throw a pot of that size and shape and complexity and for it not to collapse. So amazing skill to create the pot in the first place and then amazing skill to then paint it as well as you say with such detail and one of the famous scholars of the 1920s century john beasley started to identify different painters by their particular signature techniques of how they do a foot or how they do hands or how they did beards and things like that and gave them all names and attributed all the different surviving vessels to all of these painters. So we can actually talk about individual painters and some of them became so famous that they were famous names that you would pay a good deal of

money to own a drinking cup that had been painted by Exekias, for instance, who was a great 5th century Athenian vessel painter. And so these people made real names for themselves through the images they created. But again, I think we need to remember there's a spectrum here. If you couldn't afford an Execias, and lots of people couldn't, you could have a slightly less skilled painter doing a bit more of a rudimentary image, or you could have vessels that were just thrown with no images on them whatsoever, which would be at the bottom of the pile. But even above an execias, or the most expensive painted vessel you could find, you would then have vessels that were made not in clay like this, but in precious metals, golds and silvers. Now, they have not

survived for us in anywhere near the same number because obviously that's precious metal and it gets melted down and gets reused and people are less likely to kind of bury it in graves and let it be left there. So, they're not as prevalent for us today. But we have to imagine, again, that spectrum that if you were able to put on a symposium with a whole bunch of execias where you were doing well, but your next door neighbour could well be doing it in gold and silver and doing it even better. Well let's keep on this for the moment. So what type of vessel are we talking about with this one? So this is called an oinokoe, a wine jug, and this is what we would put the wine into when it had been mixed so that your slaves that would be attending you while you were lying on your

couches because it was far too much for you to get up and pour your own drink, would bring this around and pour it then into your individual drinking cups. Lovingly decorated with really interesting images and materials. So we've got heroes at rest here, a scene from the Iliad of kind of playing dice, kind of taking a bit of a break, and again, a similar kind of thing on the other side. So all of the images often speak to the kinds of subjects that you would expect to be talking about in the symposium amongst a group of men. You know, heroic behavior. What is it to be a hero or equally a sporting hero?

There's another one you've got over there, which has got running events on from the Olympics, one can imagine, kind of running races. And on the other side, I think it's the goddess Athena, isn't it, doing her thing. So events, images that are supposed to inspire, either in terms of your actions or your conversation about myth, about literary stories that were told about great feats that were accomplished in your lifetime and by people around you. Those are the kind of images that we might expect to see kind of on these vessels. So these could also be great conversation starters. You know, if the conversation is getting a bit low, then it's just like we can talk about what's on the vial. Yeah, I think, and they're supposed to be. I mean, don't forget every one of these images in a particular symposium is an active choice by the symposiarch who's decided to

have these particular vessels at his party. So you can imagine, yeah, along with those decisions about how strong the wine's going to be, how many craters, who he's inviting, it's all setting a tone for a kind of evening with a kind of set of topics of conversation. A very, very orchestrated, actually designed event. So I think we do have to get away from this idea that symposium is a free-for-all piss-up, right? And actually think about it as quite a carefully orchestrated, designed event to fit onto the spectrum of what a symposium could be, but then orchestrated and set up to follow a very particular path. You mentioned earlier that this is to get the wine to the cup.

So what's the next stage? There you go. Have a glass. Have a glass. With one hand, right? With one hand. So, you know, your left hand, you'd be leaning on your left hand. So it's very much a right hand job. These are individuals,

they're called kyliks. So one kyliks or two kylikes. And this is perhaps the most puzzling part of the ancient Greek symposium because the Greeks were pretty skilled at throwing pots right they could design a wine glass in any shape they wanted to and yet they choose to design one like this

and you only need to hold it for a little while imagine you know you're on leaning on one arm you've only got one hand to hold this now imagine this has got a decent amount of wine hand to hold this. Now imagine this has got a decent amount of wine swilling around in it. And it's a very shallow vessel, which means the moment you start to tip it, the wine comes rushing towards one side, spilling. And also this really kind of wide, shallow brim. It means that when you actually do fill it, and we do fill it with some Ribena for the students here, like kind of, you try to drink it and immediately it's flowing over the top and can very easily spill down you. So what they've actually done is at this symposium drinking party where you're supposed to be relaxing and drinking and chatting and they've purposefully given you a drinking cup and designed a drinking cup that makes it

difficult to drink. And this is where the test bit comes into the symposium, where it goes from being a carefully designed and orchestrated event to actually going one step further and becoming a chance for you to perform your citizenship, your right to be part of this group, your identity, by showing you know how to behave and how to deal with things like this. The barbarian, the uncivilized individual, the person who doesn't belong at a symposium is going to spill wine all over themselves because they don't know how to handle a vessel like this. The people who are supposed to be in the gang and do belong do know how to handle this. So the Greeks have purposefully put a test into their

hands to allow people who are at the symposium to actually demonstrate to themselves and to the group that they belong it's so interesting as well i guess when you consider these greek men they would have well dressed you can imagine for the symposium they've made sure they've come they've put some effort in so as you say it's a test and you don't normally associate that with going to the pub or whatever you're there to relax you're there to have fun obviously you're still there to relax, have fun in ancient Greece. But at the same time, they're watching you. Are you worthy?

Are you worthy? I mean, can you imagine going to the pub and having a glass of this with your beer and your glass of wine? You know, there's pubs that are making it difficult to drink from. And I remember doing a kind of design masterclass with some business school students. And, you know, we were looking at this because when in the world do you ever design something to make things harder for people rather than easier for people?

And it really is the kind of key marker of the symposium that lots of this stuff is about reminding you that you are on display, that you are performing an identity and showing constantly through whether you can drink from this, whether you can offer good and interesting conversation, whether you really are part of the gang and deserve to belong. And if there was anything that needed to remind us of that, if you just pick up your mug again, again, apologies to the podcasters here, but we're trying to describe what's about to happen. It is heavy. And if you just go to have a drink from it one of the things that happens if you now look on the outside of your vessel yeah what's the image on the outside i see i've got two huge athena like owl eyes looking at me and you can even see the nose in between as

well you've got these two eyes just looking straight at you it's the same on the other side so when you put that up to drink those eyes cover cover your face. And as I'm your fellow drinker sitting kind of on another couch around, I suddenly see those massive eyes looking at me. And if I needed a reminder that I was on display and I was being watched as I kind of tried to drink my wine without spilling it, those eyes are right there to remind you that this is a space in which you are being watched. You know, you are performing to your group, to your peers. And so it's a little unsettling, isn't it? I mean, again, think about if we're down the pub and your beer mug or your wine glass had a massive eye kind of on the front of it. It would be really disconcerting. And again, you know, it's there specifically. These are all active choice. Austin Poziak has decided to have this.

And potters and painters aren't going to be making these things unless people want them. You know, it's a commercial market in which you're buying this stuff. So people wanted this stuff. And these eyes are not uncommon. We find them frequently across tons and tons and tons of different drinking cups. So, yeah, it's quite an off-putting reminder that this relaxed get-together was actually quite a challenge. Did Edison really take credit for things he didn't invent? Were treadmills originally a form of corporal punishment?

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I guess I can't not mention the elephant in the room, as it were, if we're talking about art decoration on this cup, which, of course, we've got decoration on the outside, but also on the inside, too. This seems a bit unusual. Yeah, I mean, on this one, for instance, we don't have it, you know, and there were lots that didn't, but some that did. And this is, in fact, a replica of that great artist, Exegias. The top of the top. You'd do anything to have an Exegias in your household.

And it's a very famous vessel in which it is our god Dionysus, the god of wine himself, in his boat, sailing in the sea, dolphin, you can see the vines and the dolphin, the grapes kind of coming out of the thing. Now, you're quite right to say this is a bit unusual, because obviously you should be filling this with wine, right? And then you wouldn't see the image because of the opaque nature of the wine. But as you drunk your wine, as you tilted the cup, you'd see a bit of the image as the wine sort of came down. As you finished off your wine,

you'd see more and more of the image as it sort of emerged through the wine at you. And of course, an image like this is perfect because look, it's a boat on the sea with dolphins. So if the wine at you. And of course, an image like this is perfect because look, it's a boat on the sea with dolphins. So if the wine becomes the sea, then actually you've got a boat riding on the sea and dolphins leaping up out of the waves. And you've got Dionysus, the god of wine himself, kind of coming through the wine at you. It all kind of starts to work together. But sometimes the images on the insides of these vessels are not quite so poetic, we might call it, right? And interactive and mythological, or sometimes they're really quite base. And there's a number of vessels that at the bottom, they just have a very small image

at the bottom, which you would really only see when you downed your entire cup of a man puking his guts out. You know, the cup in some ways, and thus the symposiarch who chose this particular piece, are kind of having a bit of a joke at you. That's, you know, be careful, watch out, remember, this is a bit of a test. And if you drink too much of this stuff, that's how your night's going to end. Depending on what kind of symposium you were at, how strong the wine was, how many craters of wine there was going to be, how we might interpret that kind of image would change dramatically. If we were at a symposium where it was strong wine and we were going for 10 craters, that image of a man puking his guts out might be seen as an encouragement for where we're all supposed to be going, right?

This is the goal, lads, of the evening. If we were at a symposium where there was only less strong wine and only three carates being drunk, then we might interpret that image at the bottom as a bit of a warning of where not to go. So, Michael, would it also be like looking at these designs now inside the kylix, the cup? also be like looking at these designs now inside the kydex the cup is it also an incentive for the person to want to finish his cup finish his wine because of how opaque the wine would have been basically you know as you drink more more of the image is revealed to you yeah i think it is it's part of the again those conversation starters isn't it so you know we might have images on our crater that are always on display the onokore images that would come on display as

the vessel was moved around to fill up people's cups. And again, I think this is where kind of actually handling this stuff helps so much because normally you see these images as kind of 2D images in books and you get to see the whole image all at once and you can sit there and you can study it as much as you like. But actually, in reality, they were seen much more as kind of snapshots. Yeah, the crata is always on display in the room. Fine. So we'll see that image. But an aqua is moving around. It's in slaves' hands. It's being turned upside down to pour stuff. You would only see bits of the image at a time, helping you kind of spark renewed conversation across the evening because you suddenly see a new detail or

something new to talk about. Equally with your wine cup, you know, you're there and I'm here. So when you put it to your lips to drink, I see this side, but the person sitting over there in the room will see a different side to the cup and the person over there a different side again. So again, everyone will be seeing something slightly different to spark off different topics of conversation. And equally with the image inside, as you say, as you drink it, you've got more to talk about. And the kind of different conversations then arise between the different people and what they've got inside their drinking cups. And so the evening goes on. Well, Michael, as we mentioned, the shapes of all of these vessels are astonishing, especially looking at them from the 21st century.

But I think of all of them, the one which looks most like what we might associate with a dinner party today is the one in front, and it's expertly perched on 21st century. Century, close, yeah. The plate, I mean, you know, it's a plate. So sometimes they didn't make things more difficult than they had to. And in fact, there's a great range of different kinds of plates. This is a fairly standard, modern looking one, but they have sort of really nice ones that are in the shape of a fish sometimes as well, with the image of a fish underneath it that would then be obviously for, does what it says on the tin, kind of for fish as well. So, you know, lots of different vessels. And yeah, there would be things to nibble obviously as well, although the symposium is supposed to come and happen after

you've had your main meal. So most of it is about drinking with a few nibbles on the side and then entertainment. So the Aulos, which is a kind of like few nibbles on the side and then entertainment. So the aulos, which is a kind of like ancient kind of clarinet. There we go. Yeah, playing the aulos in that for it. Now, that's actually a scene of Olympic competition because that is a guy who's about to do the long jump. You can see the weights he's got in his hand. He's about to do the long jump, which you did in antiquity to the sound of the aulos that gave you a rhythm and a beat to be able to jump to. But that same instrument would be there perhaps as a bit of entertainment in the symposium, along with a number of other different kind of musical instruments. Then

potentially there might be actual professional entertainers there as well, again, as a subject to spark kind of conversation. If you're at that end of the spectrum, you might have some courtesans and some prostitutes there as well, but also drinking games. So kind of one of the things, if you got really skilled at kind of playing with your kylix, your drinking cup, there was a very famous and popular ancient drinking game at the symposium called Kotobos, which is where if you had some dregs of wine in your drinking cup, you sort of swirled them around and flicked them to try and hit a target, that kind of thing. So it's impossible to imagine the sort of skill you would have to have, particularly if you'd had a few of these caliques full of wine, and then you were attempting to kind

of hit a target with the dregs of your wine. But lots of different options and opportunities within the symposium, again, depending on what kind of event it was set up to be. And I guess, was there that freedom there? And it's so horrible to say, but I guess it's thing to say that, you know, all of this mess, which probably would have been created that you would have expected, whether it was throwing up, whether it was wine going everywhere, it was almost the host didn't really mind because the slaves would have to tidy up later. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is all on the basis that these are male citizens who would be coming with their slaves, leaving with their slaves. Some of the images we have are of slaves sort of supporting their masters who are pretty ill on the

way home from a symposium. Slaves holding the heads of their masters as they puke their guts out. Slaves having to do the clear up. Slaves having to do the clear up, slaves having to do the entertainment, slaves obviously having to pour all the wine out in the first place. We must never forget that even the fabled democracy of ancient Athens was a political system entirely based on slavery. Let's talk about a few other vessels before we finish wrapping up, because there is that one I see over there, which looks so strange. Both the design, well, the art and the design. Take it away. So this is something called a sphincter. And this is if you want your wine slightly chilled

as part of a particular symposium. So what they would do is put your wine in here and then you'd actually just bob this in top of, hang on a second, we can demonstrate. We'll kind of bring back our crater for sort of take two. Here would be our crater. And this, instead of filling this with the wine, we sort of take two. Here would be our crotter. And this, instead of filling this with the wine, we'd fill this with cold water. And then we take our sphincter, which is full of the actual wine that we want to chill. And we'd literally dump

it inside the sphincter so that it would bob in the cold water. But one of the things we did with this, when we actually tested this out, and we realised that what happens is that something to do with the fluid dynamics, and I am not a scientist, so please don't ask me for specifics. What happens is the sictus starts to turn, starts to spin kind of within the water. And that I think helps us make a lot more sense of the image that's on it. Because if you can imagine this just spinning slowly, actually, it's a continual image going around the it. Because if you can imagine this just spinning slowly, actually it's a continual image going around the entire vessel and you get more of the image as it's exposed to you, as it spins kind of naturally within the wine. So you would be seeing little bits of it. But of

course, crucially, it's bobbing in the water and it bobs to about here. So you'd actually only be seeing the top half of the image. And this is, again, where I think this particular image is playing a bit of a joke on us. So these are satyrs. These are kind of half-goat, half-men creatures that are on lots of symposium vessels. And basically, they do all the things you're not supposed to do as a civilized individual at a symposium. They drink their wine neat. They drink their wine standing upside down. They run around with very, very, very large erect penises.

Or on this particular image, they balance their wine cups on their penises. So they do all sorts of naughty things. But obviously, this wouldn't be on view to you always, because if this thing was bobbing in the crater, you'd be seeing a bunch of heads, bearded heads, and you'd be able to tell they were satyrs because you could see their weird ears. But you wouldn't be able to see what was happening on the lower half of the vessel, which is actually where the really dodgy stuff was happening, until this was brought out on occasion to pour a bit of the cold wine into the mixing crater to start. So you'd suddenly get an image where you'd go, oh, whoa, something's happening here that I really didn't expect was happening. And then it would be plonked back in the wine cooler and it would disappear from

view again. So a really interesting vessel that again, the choice of imagery and the way in which the imagery has been set up to decorate the vessel kind of responds to the way that the vessel is used and on view within the symposium to kind of play that delayed trick on you of, you think you know what this image is, don't you? Oh no, you don't. And now away it goes again. So I think kind of a huge amount of fun and imagine those painters sitting in the area of athens where they did all their pottery and painting called the keramikos who you know we're never going to necessarily get to be at one of these symposia themselves but they were having great fun thinking about how all these vessels were

going to be used and the point of them being used and designing their images to kind of respond to that set of circumstances. Yeah it is quite a shock and horror moment that isn't it? Okay let's move on to the last couple of vessel types. So this is a bit different as well isn't it? We talked about the yards earlier but I mean this also looks the shape wise a little different. Yeah so those wine jugs come in lots of different shapes and sizes so you've got another Inokua there as well which which actually has a lid to it as well. And then we've got another one over here, which is your magnum size kind of over here compared to your sort of standard bottle. So Inokua came in lots of different shapes and sizes depending on, and again, you'd maybe

make sure you had one of these if you had one of the largest in Pozzia perhaps so that the person didn't have to keep going back to the crater and refilling as it went around to fill up all the different glasses. So lots of different variety within the individual styles of vessel depending on what you wanted. You know it really was a kind of smorgasbord of choice which makes the choices, the active choices that people made about what to have at their particular symposium all the more interesting. I'll tell you what Michael, it's so so fascinating one of the things that has been most fascinating so far with this chat is how should we say choreographed the whole evening could be by the host depending on the art you know the types of vessels what he had planned for the night yeah absolutely so taking away that idea that the symposium is a kind of free-for-all piss up

getting it into our heads that actually it's a very designed choreographed, it's a beautiful word to use, event that is supposed to walk quite a narrow line on a wide spectrum of possibility. But the symposium has decided where their symposium is going to lie and then they walk that line quite narrowly. And at the same time, you know, crucially, the symposium is not a totally relaxing moment for those taking part. It is continually a performance of identity and a series of tests that you have to meet to prove that you are worthy to be part of the gang. Therefore, a great microcosm, shall we say, through which to look at luxury in the ancient Greek world? Yeah, I mean, you know, luxury is a really interesting topic, particularly if we situate ourselves in Athens, democratic Athens, where it was all about between, you know, the male adult citizens, it was all about complete political equality. And so luxury and the possession of

luxuries was actually quite a thorny issue for ancient Athens. Because if people had luxuries, that meant there were people who were more wealthy and people who were less wealthy. And that meant there was a bunch of financial inequality alongside this supposed political equality. And Athens felt quite uncomfortable about it. And many times in many areas, they actually stepped in and said, no, we won't allow you to display a level of luxury above a certain amount because we don't want this kind of ostentatious display on display. Gravestones, for instance, in the graveyards of ancient Athens, there are actually rules put in place at certain times that you can't have a grave marker that took more than a certain number of men, a certain number of days to build, and thus couldn't be more ornate and luxurious than lots of others. The symposium seems to be a bit of a space where people were allowed to display a bit of luxury. And if you could afford your exegias, you could afford your exegias and you could show off in that way. But again, there were lines. So

if you did turn up with your silver and gold vessels in Athens, you'd probably be looked on a bit suspiciously as being not really properly, fully Athenian. Whereas if we were in Macedon in Northern Greece, if you didn't have your silver and gold vessels, you were no one, right? So a little bit of a variety there in terms of how luxury was viewed and interpreted and accepted or not as part of it. And that wasn't just about the vessels, it came also down to the food that people ate. Now, obviously, not tons of food on display at the symposium, but even the choices of which fish went on that special fish plate were thought to say something about you and your political allegiances. So we have these texts surviving that talk about,

you know, watch out for people in the marketplace and in the fish market, because if they're buying this type of fish, it means secretly they are not a Democrat. They're an oligarchic supporter because they are a lover of luxurious fish, whereas they should be buying a good standard wholehearty democratic mediocre fish to ascribe their political allegiance at the same time so everything about you was a statement in one form or another well michael this has been an amazing chat i mean it's just fascinating i'm going to go to the hellenistic world here but it's fascinating to think if there could have been variations of a symposium happening as far east as the greco batrian kingdom or the indo-greek kingdoms or even further east as well it really emphasizes you know perhaps at that time later on how connected the world became and how far and how

widespread versions of the symposium became yeah i mean we see versions of the symposium we can. Yeah, I mean, we see versions of this stuff traveling quite far and being made in different ways. And even in fact, we know that in Athens, in that Keramikos area where they were throwing and painting the pots for your Athenian symposium, there was also an active export market. They knew in Athens, where else in the wider Mediterranean really loved this stuff. And one of the markets that really loved this stuff was Etruria. So civilization, not Greek, but they liked their banquets and they developed a real love for Greek symposium ware. And so the Athenians had a specific export market

where they were making stuff with particular images on it that they knew that the Etrurians absolutely loved, just like the dynamics of global trade in many ways today. Well, Michael, this has been awesome. Thanks so much for bringing out all these replica vases as well, and replica vessels, I should say. And it only goes to me to say thank you so much for coming back on History Hit. Pleasure. Thanks, Tristan. Well, there you go. There was the legend that is Professor Michael Scott explaining all about the ancient Greek symposium. I do realise that in that podcast

there was a lot of explaining of different vessels and how they looked. If you want to see the video of that interview, well don't worry because we're going to be releasing that on YouTube and on History Hit in due course so you can see the artwork of these various vessels, their shape and so much more. I do hope you enjoyed that episode. It was great fun to record. Now, last but certainly not least from me, you know what I'm going to say. If you want more ancient history content in the meantime, well, you can subscribe to our weekly newsletter via a link in the description below. Every week, I write a little blurb for that news. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era,

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