The Ancients - The Terracotta Army

Episode Date: February 24, 2022

Discovered by local farmers in 1974, the Terracotta Army is one of the most astounding archaeological finds on record. A piece of funerary art, dedicated to the First Emperor of China Qin Shi Huang, it contains over 8,000 figures of soldiers, chariots, and horses. This week Tristan is joined by Dr Xiuzhen Li, Honorary Senior Research Fellow at UCL, to discuss its origins, its possible Hellenistic influences, and what else we can learn from this incredible ancient wonder.If you'd like to learn more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hithttps://access.historyhit.com/?utm_source=audio&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=Podcast+Campaign&utm_id=PodcastTo download, go to Android or Apple store:https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.historyhit&hl=en_GB&gl=UShttps://apps.apple.com/gb/app/history-hit/id1303668247If you’re enjoying this podcast and looking for more fascinating Ancients content then subscribe to our Ancients newsletter. Follow the link here:https://www.historyhit.com/sign-up-to-history-hit/?utm_source=timelinenewsletter&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=Timeline+Podcast+Campaign

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So what do we know about the terracotta warriors? How were they constructed? Why? What was their purpose in the mausoleum? And could there potentially be an influence from the ancient Mediterranean, from the ancient Hellenistic world? Well, to answer all of these questions and so much more, I was delighted to get on the podcast a few weeks back to chat in person with Dr. Xu Jin Li. Xu Jin is an Honorary Senior Research Fellow at UCL, and she's also done a lot of work with the Museum for the Terracotta Army out in China. She is one of the leading experts all about the terracotta warriors, with a particular focus on their bronze weapons, about the terracotta warriors with a particular focus on their bronze weapons on the logistics behind how this huge monumental army was constructed now this is going to be a two-part

podcast in this first part we're going to be focusing in giving an overview shall we say of the terracotta army whilst the second part which we'll release in a few weeks time we're really going to delve into the details of the weapons themselves and what these bronze weapons placed among these warriors, what that can tell us about the time, the effort, the logistics behind creating this huge army more than 2,000 years ago. But without further ado, to talk all about the Terracotta Army, a fantastic overview. Here's Shujun. Shujun, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today. Now, I mean, the Terracotta Army, this is one of the greatest archaeological discoveries, one of the greatest archaeological sites in the whole of the world. You can't think of any site quite like it can you? It's so

unique. Yes, the terracotta wall is really unique in China and also in the world. So these life-size the terracotta wall is because like we're talking about other sculptures because they made a stone or made other materials but actually this life-size target of worries made of clay and also particularly this kind of clay only in the lowest plateau in china yeah so that can shape it and also can really sculptured so and then made like this kind of life-size Tarakata warriors. First of all, a bit of background. Let's set the scene for the Terracotta Army first of all.

When was the Terracotta Army constructed? When was it built? So the Tarakata warriors were constructed 2,000 years ago, more than 2,000 years ago, more than 2,000 years ago, because these are related to the first emperor. So the first emperor was born in 259 BC, and he unified China, we call it unified China, he established the first empire in China, the Qin Empire, in 221 BC.

So the Tarakans warriors definitely were buried for his afterlife, for himself, after he died, you know, so this was his afterlife. So that's kind of roughly about 210, the emperor died. So the terracotta warriors, we estimate terracotta warriors probably built roughly that time, a little bit earlier probably. So that's like prepare for his afterlife. And just to set the scene, so was this Terracotta Army, these soldiers, were they just one small fraction of the huge tomb that was to be built for this emperor of China? Yeah, you are right, because the first emperor actually pursued immortality that time, and he really liked to live longer. And also at the same time,

he also had his Muslim constructed. So that's kind of another way, alternative way of pursuing his immortality. So that's like when he became the king, so he was only 13 years old, so he started to plant this Moslem. So the Moslem cover about, we call tomb complex, 56 square kilometres. 56 square kilometres, it's absolutely huge.

So the Tarkid Waris, terracotta army, only small part, it's a very small part of the whole tomb complex. So how was this, first of all, the discovery of this? Do we know how this terracotta army, these soldiers, were first discovered? Yeah, actually, we're talking about officially discovered because in 1974, in March, in a very dry spring in that local area because these local farmers dug a well to get some water and then they found some pieces of terracotta figures and also they found some bronze weapons like bronze arrows and then they reported to local archaeological institute and then archaeologists came and find originally because when the

archaeologists came here they said oh yeah probably several terracotta figures or some piece of pottery or some piece of bronze but when they have archaeological survey and also excavation they were so surprised because these three pieces of terracotta warriors and also estimate about 8,000 warriors there. And so have we uncovered the whole of the terracotta warriors site or are there still those parts of the site which we haven't yet been able to excavate yet where there might be more of those warriors still to be? Yes, you know excavation is only a small part of the Tarquin Warriors because we have ongoing archaeology.

But actually originally in the 1970s we had partial excavation, we call it, just a small part, one fifth of page one, so the quite small section of Pit 1. And then we have ongoing archaeology on Pit 3, so there's quite small 68 terracotta valleys. And also we had partial excavation after archaeological survey in Pit 2. So that's all together Pit 1 and Pit 2 two, pit three, so the dragon warriors. We only have now still a little bit more than one-fifth excavation, but ongoing archaeology still continues. You mentioned weapons, and I promise we're going to get to the weapons very soon, those bronze weapons, but let's focus on the warriors themselves first of all.

You mentioned there are three pits that we'll talk about in a bit, but the design, the style of these warriors, what do we know? Are they very like, between each different figure, can you see differences? Can you see variation in their creation, in their design? Yes, the terracotta warriors, because we carry out many researches and studies on that, on the terracotta warriors, because regionally, so German historian, and also work on the terracotta worries, because originally, so German historian, and also worked on the terracotta worries in Chinese archaeology for a long time, yeah, Landros,

Professor Landros, but actually Professor Yuan, our former director, probably originally they suppose the terracotta worries probably we call mould and sculpture, mold first and then sculpture in detail. So that's the tarragon ovaries, the process of making the tarragon ovaries. Actually the detailed sculpture really, so these each tarragon ovaries were well sculptured individually. So they built each tarragon ovaries individually, you know, there's like from the bottom, the feet feet and to the top of the head. So that's really completely individually produced. Not really, some people probably in the website

you can see someone supposed to call modular production, that means different types of heads, different types of arms and they're assembled together. That's not the case. The case is that's really artistic work and they're well- that's not the case the case is that's really artistic work and the well-sculptured probably they they shape the clay in the first part and they build the target of worries just step by step from bottom to top and the sculpture in details so the every target of worries have their very unique characters. You know, the eyes, the ears, the facial features,

it's quite different from each other. That's amazing. It's so amazing when you consider just the sheer scale of it all. I mean, you mentioned, of course, that this is part of the mausoleum, you know, for this first emperor, but this particular part, these figures, this army, what function were they supposed to have within this huge mausoleum? What do they represent?

Yeah, the function is because they're part of the tomb complex, the big first emperor's Muslim complex. And that's also the part of the belief of the first emperor. He believed after life. Actually, he tried to pursue immortality, but at the same time, he believed after life. Actually, he tried to pursue immortality, but at the same time, he believed after life. He think he can, you know, to be immortal, and when he died in the other, in the underground empire,

so that's the tariqat of waris was built, supposed to protect him in his afterlife. So that's like quite close to his Moslem, to his coffin chamber. So they're located at the east part of the coffin chamber because the Emperor conquered the other six states in the east. So he worried about enemy coming from east, you know, all the enemies, all the spirits, all evil spirits. So that's the territory, the know, all the enemies, all the spirits, all the evil spirits. So that's the character of the warrior, he's located at the East and also facing the East and to protect him against the enemy coming from the East.

I mean, that's amazing. So how can we gather that information that the reason that they're placed where they are looking East is to protect against potential enemies from the East? Do we have literature like to affirm this or is this mainly from the archaeology? Based on the history and the literature because like the ancient documents recorded we have that time you know historical period and we have some written documents and also mentioned because that time how the location of the Qin Kingdom and also originally expanded into the Qin Empire so that time you know we call warring state era in China so the seven states in central eastern part of China and the

the Qin Kingdom located at a west relatively west but we still call central nowadays and so the other six states are in the east part. And also they saw that the Qin emperor, the Qin first emperor, so conquered the other six states. So that kind of established the Qin first empire. And also he called himself first emperor. And also the archaeological discoveries also show because like this is kind of location of the Qing kingdom and the Qing empire so that's quite close modern day Xi'an so the Terracotta Bar is buried in Lintong and then the other six states also we find other archaeological we have other archaeological discoveries in other six states as well.

I mean, that's absolutely brilliant. I love that mixture of archaeology and literature when it comes together like that. If we go on from that and talking about the terracotta army, now we talked about the warriors and how they differ in their designs, but it's not just warriors that are depicted, there are also animals too, aren't there? Because this is quite interesting part in the Qin first emperor's Muslim complex. So we also find, you know, because of the big large quantity of stables, because Qin empire, Qin kingdom, originally we call Qin clan, there's a small group located at the western border of that time called Zhou period and they raised horses for the Zhou dynasty, so the early dynasty

before Qing dynasty, so that's for the Zhou king, so they raised horses because at the western part they have pastures for the horse raising, So that's kind of, they have large quantities of stables that time. And also one of the reasons for Qin conquered the other states because the cavalry, they have a cavalry because they have horses and also they have powerful crossbows. So that's kind of part of his history. And also when the emperor died, emperor tried to bring everything to his afterlife. And horses is very important part for the emperor's life, for the Qin Empire.

So we find the stable horses. Horses, we found the terracotta horses, you know, in the terracotta army. So they have chariot horses and also they have cavalry horses. And at the same time, we also find lots of horse skeletons. Real horses were buried in the Muslim, in the whole Muslim complex. That is so interesting when you compare it to other ancient cultures, like we did one a few weeks, a few months ago about the Sarka culture in Kazakhstan eastern Kazakhstan and their horse burrows along with their elite figures

and it seems like this is as you say a similar thing we have the horses depicted in the terracotta army but as you say there are real life horses buried there too is this very much an elite status symbol heralding back to the Chin heritage, shall we say, their close association with cavalry? Yes, we're talking about this. It's a big story because like the Qin Empire, so they rise the Qin Empire. Because Qin is located at the west, they have connections with the surrounding Eurasian steppe, you know, the nomads, so the people, they raise horses. And also, Qin is linked with that time, the Huns, Xiongnu, we call, and they are expertise on horses. And also, another that's like a kind of nomadic group. So that's why Qin have their very good calvaries. And also in the eastern parts, so we're talking about

the horses in the other six states, because the environmental reasons, because they don't have enough pastures, because the agriculture in the center part, in the eastern part, farming land, so they cannot have good horses for them and the chin that's located West they have a pastry but apart from farming land they also have a pastures and they also have a grassy spur horses so that make the chin getting stronger with the cavalry with the cherries on the wall fairs you know so that kinds of strong military power, so conquer the other states, yeah.

It's so interesting, that heritage, as you said, they bring it forwards. So if we talk a bit more about the terracotta army before delving into the weapons themselves, one thing I'd love to ask about, you mentioned that there were three pits and these various styles of warriors, so let's go through them. If you wouldn't mind giving us an overview of what sorts of figures were in each pit. So if we start with Pit 1, what sorts of figures can we find in Pit 1? In Pit 1, there's mainly infantry. So we find Pit 1, that is the biggest in the other three pits, and also that's early discovered in 1970s so and they start to excavate it and find

so because they have 11 quarry we call 11 corridors that's 11 you know lines in the each corridor but each corridor have a four lines in the in the group so and this is mainly infantry and also with a chariot in the middle of the infantry. But in the front row have three rows of crossbowmen. So that's three rows facing to the east. So these all have these figures have crossbows. You know, we find crossbow triggers there and also the arrows. So that's crossbowmen but in the middle part so that's that's all infantry and the chariots so that kind of battle formation so

we're talking about in chin time so the the military array and also how the military strategy that time so we're talking about this infantry that's a main part for this military troop, and with the chariot, with the crossbowmen in front, at the back, in front and also at the back, and also the side, the two sides. And that's like a surrounding, so that's like a square surrounding infantry, so with all these crossbowmen. So that kind of when the troops, they come a little bit far distance and the crossbowmen release the arrows to the enemy.

And when they close enough, so all the crossbowmen will go move away and the infantry, they will have a close combat so that's the warfare at time. So interesting so and no doubt we're going to get back to this once again when we get to the weapons but it's almost as if this is very much they are deployed from pit one and we'll probably see in the other pits as well as if they're in battle formation. Yeah, that's a real battle formation. So that's kind of, you know, they arranged, you know, like really in the war, in the battlefield, how these troops moving forward

and how these two, you know, two troops, they fighting together. So they have a long distance arrows, you know, triggers and release the arrows to the enemy and also when they come close how they have a close combat. And also they have different weapons equipped for the different function. We'll get to those weapons in a bit as mentioned but Pit 2, Pit 2, Shujin, what is in Pit 2? Yeah, Pit 2 is combination. So in Pit 2, so that's have a chariot, you know, the eight rows of chariots,

and also each row have eight chariots. So that's like 64 chariots. So big, we call chariots formation. So that kinds of also military array in the Qin dynasty. And the chariots, so also quite important part for their war fears.. And also they have a cavalry, so cavalry is a very important part for the Qin troops. And they're well trained because from the historical records, because the chariots and also the cavalry, they both need to both well trained. And also they have kind of crossbowmen and also archers, they kind of section. So this section in the right corner, you know, in the front corner, and also the same as the first military array, P1, so they also the same long distance release arrows to the enemy. And then after that, the crossbowmen moving to the back, so they also the same long distance release arrows to the enemy.

And then after that the crossbowmen moving to the back and they have cavalry and chariots moving. They mixed these cavalry, chariots and also small part of infantry because they will rotate it like that and to change to the cavalry and the chariots. So that kind of mainly focus on the P1 infantry, mainly infantry, and P2 chariots and the cavalry. But they both have a crossbowman. So when the enemy coming closer, because from the long distance, they will start to release the arrows to the enemy,

and then they have a close combat. Different strategy. Different strategy indeed. I mean, we've talked about chariots before on the podcast, focusing in on the Egyptians and Hittites, Roman, Iron Age. We did a little bit on Chinese chariots, but is it with Chinese chariots? And could you see from the Terracotta Army, are they the ones which have these huge wheels

which make them able to go on various types of terrain? No, not huge wheels. So that seems quite different. We're talking about, originally talking about Chariots probably really with the horses, they coming from the Eurasia steppe because it is to central China. And also in central China, central China from probably Shang dynasties like roughly about 1500 BC so that's kind of we start to have chariots and horses but and then to the Qing dynasty So that's like this 200 BC so and these times 300 BC and this time so the chariot revolutionized the Qing's you know, to fit in the central China, how the wall fares.

So they have their own design, kind of, for the chariots, because it roughly have four horses and have a wooden chariot back. But the wheel is not too big, but we have a single shaft, single, big single shaft, and with four horses in front. So that's normally in the chariot have three target figures. One is charioteer, and the other two that's called left and right. So there are two warriors, and they can fight in all the different directions.

OK, so a three-man team, it were for each chariot yeah sometimes have a four sometimes four because one is like official officials you know like kind of generals on the top of the chariot I mean actually I guess talking about officials generals and commanders do we see that is the king or Emperor himself portrayed in the terracotta army or is he not at all? Is it more just his army and his subordinates? We don't think that, yeah, the emperor like I know in other empires. So it seems different because I think the Qin first emperor not really involved in charity or the cavalry. Yeah, but probably he really writes on the horses,

but actually not involved in this, you know, targeted army. But actually his tomb, his coffin chamber, quite close, but definitely he was the real commander, yeah. Quite right. I could ask so many questions, but let's keep going on to Pit 3. Pit 3, what is in Pit 3? Yeah, pit three we call headquarter. So pit three is quite smaller, the smallest one in these three pits. Pit three, so they only have 68 character worries, but pit three was seriously damaged because due to probably quite deep and also probably shortly after the

Qing empire, because the Qing empire is quite short, only 15 years. And then after that the farmers rebelling so came into the Muslim complex and probably that time so the target warriors were damaged. So when we excavated P3, it shows that all P3s, so the target figures, they all wear armours, so that's kind of armour, well protected. But we couldn't find the heads, many of the missing heads. Yeah, so when we excavated, but actually they have one chariot, 68 warriors, one chariot. But also in this section, so these warriors are probably officials

because they stand face to face, not really facing to the east, but they stand like a circle to talking, to discuss how they carry out this military, you know. Strategies, some kind of strategy. We're talking about this real headquarter. And also we found the animal bones, so that's the deer horn in that pit. So normally, because before the warfare in China, they have a kind of superstition,

they need to worship the god, you know, or ancestors, you know, with animals, with animal head or animal bones, and to protect them to win the battle, to win the warfare. So that kind of normally in this happened in the headquarters. So that means this really headquarters for discussion, the military strategy, and also at the same time to worship the God, to protect them, to win the war. As you listen to this, me and Team History Hit are on our way down to the Weddell Sea, joining the expedition mounted by the Falklands Maritime Heritage Trust to the place where we believe the endurance lies on the seafloor. If we find it, it'll be the greatest underwater discovery since the Titanic. So get ready.

Dan Snow's History Hit podcast is the exclusive place to follow in real time the search for the lost Endurance shipwreck in Antarctica, with regular episodes and updates dropping in the feed throughout the month. Is that all those important, yeah, those high up in the army duties which were needed before, like the council of war, the sacrifice? I don't know if it was sacrifices or not. Sacrifices, making sure that the gods were on your side if you were going to war against that particular people. That's also interesting with pit one, two and three.

So thank you for explaining all of that. A couple more questions before we really move on. The first is of course, armour. Now, the armour of these figures, what do we know about the armour? How are they depicted with armour, these terracotta warriors? Yeah, the terracotta warriors, because in the Qing Dynasty, so they mainly used the functional armour that was leather, because they produced, you know, they made of leather. We have the historical records, you know, in the written history, so talking about because they collected all these different kinds of leathers and how they produced armours to

cut into pieces, how they linked them together with kind of linen threads, you know, to link the armour together. And at the same time, so in the Qin Dynasty, they started to have iron armour, but actually not too popular because leather armour was quite popular at that time, and also we have, we find a large quantity of what are called bamboo sleeves. Bamboo sleeves, they have all the Qin characters, written characters on top. And also they mention sometimes kind of punishment, you know, people like they have some guilty or they made some mistakes and then the government will force

them to make armor to contribute to the military troop. So that kind of Qing society, how they managed. So that means the functional armour, that mainly they use the armour made of leather. And they have, sometimes have iron armour. Because we have one general find in the Char Ket Army. The general, because the armour is quite different from other warriors and other officials, because the armour, quite different from other warriors and other officials because the armour is quite small scale, they're fixed together and also they have

top, have decorations so it shows probably the iron armour, so they picked iron armour. But for the common soldiers, for the common warriors, so they wear leather armour. It's so interesting and I love bringing up these parallels of like ancient Greece and ancient Rome at the time. In ancient Greece especially, where you have so many soldiers who weren't wearing metal armour, they're also wearing leather such as the linothorax, or just not much armour at all. It's so interesting, you see the parallels, the high echelons,

they have more metal, shall we say. I mean, I guess the other thing I'd love to ask, keeping on that ancient Greece-Rome link, is that we're quite at pains today to highlight how, you know, these fascinating statues that you see of ancient Greece and Rome, they would have been painted, the statues, the altars, and everything there would have been painted. There would have been colours everywhere.

Can we imagine the same with the terracotta army? Would there have been colours everywhere with these warriors? Yes, you know, all these Terracotta warriors originally all well-painted, very colourful, because they are all very bright red, bright blue, green, purple. So that's quite, you know, when I work in P3 and P2, mainly P3, so that's 1990s. So when we excavate P3, because this buried quite deep and some colours well protected, well preserved because they need moisture and temperature.

But actually when we excavate it, temperature and moisture change. So the colour will quickly fade or peel off. So I feel a little bit regret because when we excavated, when we left the target worries, we were so surprised that time. I was so surprised because see, the very bright colour, some of the bright colours still on the target body, but some of the colour, they stick to the soil because these pigments is after 2,000 years they're getting old you know the peeling off from the terracotta body because the terracotta worries are when they

baked after fire they painted they need some bonding agent we call bonding agent so put a layer of lacquer that's kind of sticky and then pigment so after 2,000 years the lacquer became old so they easily to shrink to peeling off from the target body so that's the color because when 1970s we excavate it one so the colour was not well preserved even pit 1 also was burned, was fired before so that kind of some of the and also the damage because they buried for a long time when P3 excavated really

the colour we find very bright colour but actually some faded quickly after exposed the temperature and moisture change. We worked with Germany for 20 years' cooperation, trying to find a solution to preserve the colour on the target surface. So we really have achievement, but now we have kind of, you know, some of the really well-preserved storage and put some still well-preserved colourful terracotta worries in that and with temperature and moisture control. So that we still can see, but in that small storage, we still can see some colourful terracotta worries.

That's brilliant. It's really nice to hear that. Did you say lacquer? Was lacquer one of the key things? Because that's one thing we sometimes don't really focus on, especially over here, the lacquerwares, and how important these things were in ancient China, weren't they? And we sometimes see them in the Begram Hoards, but we rarely see them further west kind of thing. But should we also imagine like these lacquerwares, this style of pottery, can we imagine

that that would have been all around that area of the terracotta warriors, the mausoleum at that time too? Yeah, that's talking about lacquer, it's quite fascinating part of probably invention in early China. So the lacquer in Qin time, Qin dynasty, so Qin Kingdom, they start to use lacquer but the very, you know, good at to use lacquer at that time is the Chu state. The other state that's in southern part along Yangtze River. So that's cause they made a lot of lacquer wares. But after the Qin unification, actually Qin took their technology of using lacquer, lacquer wares, you know, because also shortly after Han Dynasty, Qin Dynasty and Han Dynasty, they have lots of lacquer wares. And they also have a kind of can be used as a bonding

agent because like the target worries they put lacquer there so that means bonding agent between the target body and also the pigment so there is kind of another not only for decoration that served as bonding agent the lacquerquer, definitely they use lacquerware sometimes as well, so that's like they painted on the surface of wood, the well preserve the wood, you know, because the wood or bamboo they color with this lacquer and also they can mix different color of lacquer so that's quite decorative, but they use this for the target worries that's quite decorative. But they use this for the Terracotta Warriors, that's mainly for they are quite sticky and for they are bonding the pigment on the Terracotta body.

I love that, love that. But, okay, enough about lacquer and our tangent on lacquer. Let's go back to Terracotta Warriors then, and I'd love to talk a bit now about the influence, the inspiration for the Terracotta Warriors, because what could well have influenced the construction of the Terracotta Warriors? Because what could well have influenced the construction of the Terracotta Army in the way that it is? Yeah, we're talking about Terracotta Warriors, so that's originally we, you mentioned also,

I mentioned as well, because the Terracotta Warriors, how unique the Terracotta Warriors, because this is unique in China and also unique in the world. So when we're talking about influence, because we're talking about the Silk Road, and also we're talking about pre-Silk Road, because the Silk Road, we're talking about the Han Dynasty with Rome, so because they have long distance trade route, and also the Silk will run to the west and also the kind of communication. But before that, they still probably have some communications between East and the West also because particularly Central Asia and also particularly China, that time China with

the Eurasia step. So what I'd like to talk about because China, we're talking about central China, so they are not isolated. They were not isolated before, you know, because they have lots of communications with surrounding group, nomadic group or surrounding other group. Like what I mentioned, Xiongnu, other group in Central Asia we have record or some no record because for the archeologists, archeological perspective, so we're talking about you know millet and barley, how they originally between the two, between the Eurasia continent, how they influence from east west and also talking about animals, horses, and also the target of worry themselves. But actually, we're talking about the, you know, probably have some communications

or interactions or inspirations. That's what I mentioned before, because we're talking about Qing Dynasty, the first emperor. So he went to the west to meet 12 giant people. But these people definitely for us, that's probably quite exotic, you know, because from probably Central Asia, Eurasia, or probably a little bit further because that's the Hellenistic period, you know, after ancient Greece. But we're talking about influence, they probably really, that's what I talk, have some inspirations, probably really link to the Hellenistic world. But we're talking about the Tarik and the Wuris, that quite local, that's quite unique, because the clay is local clay. And also all the Tarik and the Worries, they have some people we call artisans or artist names on the back of the Tarik and the Worries, because they normally,

when people produce, you know, create these Tarik and the Worries, they mark their names there, and also which pottery, which workshop they belong. And also the sculptures, the detailed sculptures, and they're also carved on the surface. It's quite unique, created with local earth soil, you know, that's from the earth plateau. We're talking the unique because only this large plateau, because in ancient China or in China now, because this large plateau, we can create the room because if you cut through the earth, you can create it. So the room, people can live inside. The houses they build, so because they have typical, very special clay, that clay can shape it and also can be sculptured.

Because if the soil with too much sand is quite loose, so you cannot create such kind of tactile worries, you know, with also this quite smooth body and also detailed facial features. So we're talking about possible inspirations, that's quite smooth body and also detail facial features. So we're talking about possible inspirations, but actually this quite local produced. The resources is local, the soil is local, and also this local concept because the afterlife.

The Qing emperor thinking about pursuit immortality and at the same time he believed afterlife. And also that the Chinese artisans or artists create terracotta worries with local clay and also fit in the Chinese traditional concepts. So that's unique of Chinese terracotta worries, but actually possible inspiration, but this made totally locally. I mean, absolutely, that local, this local creation, as you say, I love that possible influence, Hellenistic influence as well. And it's quite interesting to think, isn't

it, as you say, at this time period where you do have in modern day Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, you have a Greco-Bakhtarian kingdom, you have these little Hellenistic hallmarks in northwestern India, Pakistan as well. So you can understand, can't you, that these statues that might have been gotten to Afghanistan by that point, then it could have been passed on, some of that, you know, people could have seen them and then travelled further further east to China so it is wonderful to think about you know that potential influence but as you say combined with a very unique local creation it's a wonderful idea the mix of the local and the influence from

the other end of the continent you know some, some 2,000 years ago, I mean, it blows your mind, doesn't it? Yes, thinking about probably that time, the communication between the Central Asia and China, so really beyond what we imagined. We think about, because it's very much natural barriers, because of desert, the mountains. They're really difficult thinking about that time, no airplane, you know, not traffic like today's we have cars, trains. So probably that's really difficult but they still have a possibilities. We have so many archaeologists or researchers

like we have Chinese called Duan Qingbo and he researched the connections between ancient Persia and also the Qing Empire. So there's kind of connections, possible connections and also I think Lucas Nicholl published a paper about this link. But actually for us we nowadays we're talking this but we really find some sculptures in modern day Xinjiang so that's the the possible and also the coins of that's called it hollanda coins that time and in in Xinjiang part so it's possibility and also some possible inspiration and also but this creation really, really unique in China. It absolutely is. I mean, this has been brilliant, a great overview of the

terracotta army so far. But one question I've now got to ask, considering how huge this mausoleum complex is, I mean, how much more do we still have to learn about the terracotta army in general? And then I guess also its position within the huge mausoleum? Yeah, terracotta warriors really, I think they still have rich information, probably need archaeologists and historians to extract from them, you know, because this is fitting in the big Muslim complex. And also I'm thinking about another book in Chinese, like kind of real battle formation, because you're thinking about ancient warfares, ancient, you know, military strategies, but cannot survive a real battle formation there, because with the target warriors and also weapons.

So you can go through from the target warriors so to see that one perspective, the military strategy. But thinking about the target warriors stand there, that's life size, and also that's kind of realistic sculptures, and you also can from there to talking about because the dresses in the qin dynasty and also the armors like what i mentioned and the weapons also from their back we can talking about because the clay because the pottery that time, how they made ceramic, and behind is the ceramic production, you know, because the Qing society, and also talking about bronze weapons and resources

of the Qing society. So there's lots of information to cover different perspectives, different aspects from the Qing society. So they're really we're talking about this from terracotta buries we can see through to see the society, the people, the craftsman's behavior, the administrators behavior and also like the people involved, other people, laborers involved in this you know from the transportation from the workshop to the pace, and how the people's behaviour. Thinking about the quite vivid, the scenery, the scenario of this construction. The logistics behind creating such a monumental thing, isn't it? Which I guess must have taken

years, if not decades, to complete. I mean, how long do we think it actually took to complete the... Well, I guess on the one hand, the terracotta army, and on the other hand, the years if not decades to complete? I mean how long do we think it actually took to complete the, well I guess on the one hand the terracotta army and on the other hand the mausoleum as a whole? Yeah so the mausoleum you know if based on the historical historical records we mentioned it took roughly about 40 years because the emperor when emperor went to the throne when he was 13 because the emperor, when emperor went to the throne, when he was 13, and he started to build his mosque, and also probably that time he planned, and with the minister, we called minister Li Bo Wei that time, the early minister.

But actually, we probably, after the Ming construction, the Ming construction, probably after the mainly construction, the main construction, probably after the unification. Because we found some Muslim builders' tombs, the cemetery of the Muslim builders. So some of the Muslim builders, they have a piece of, we call epitaph, you know, the kind of small piece of pottery, and with the person's name and where come from and why come from here so like the reason that is the kind of small biography you know because the kind of yeah yeah the small bell and also they have kind of talking about the person where come from and why because like

some of them so like on government debt and came here to join the big project, the construction, and instead paying off the debt to the government. So that kind of information. And also mentioned the people coming from the East, you know, the other six states. So that means the Muslim construction probably mainly after unification. Because this not only the laborers coming from the Qin state, they coming from the empire.

Empire is the unified, after unified six states. So that means probably Ming construction, so after unification, probably within 10 years after 221 unification, and the emperor died 210, probably mainly between this time period. So many more questions I could ask about this. But you mentioned the craftspeople and the logistics behind that. We're going to be talking about the weapons, but we're going to wrap up this episode and we're going to save that for part two.

So what I'm going to say now, Shu Jin, is thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today. Oh, thank you. Thank you. My pleasure. Well, there you go. There was Dr Shu Jin Li giving a fantastic overview of the Terracotta Army, the Terracotta Warriors. If you want to learn more, then don't worry, because as mentioned at the end of that episode, we're going to be releasing a second part of Shu Jin in due course,

where we focus in on the bronze weapons that these warriors were holding, the various types of weapons and what that can tell us about on the one hand ancient Qin armies and how they were deployed but also about the logistics about the huge scale operation you know the various workshops required to construct such a huge archaeological wonder as a small part of the monumental the ginormous mausoleum for this first Chinese emperor. That's all still to come, so don't you worry coming in the weeks ahead. Now, if you want more ancients content in the meantime, you can of course subscribe to our weekly ancients newsletter via a link in the description below. Every week I write a little blurb for that newsletter now, giving you little insights into what we've been doing at ancient history hit that week who

we've been interviewing what things have happened in ancient history for instance the discovery of something that's been labeled the most important piece of prehistoric art found in the uk in the past 100 years that was discovered this week of course we talk about that but if you want other stuff as well little hints as to what we're going to be covering next then that newsletter is the thing for you alongside that if you'd be kind enough to leave us a lovely rating on either Spotify or Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts from, that would be greatly appreciated as it helps us grow the ancients' audience, spread the ancient history love even further. P.S. my book is still newly released. is recently out if the wars of alexander's successors are of

interest to you then why not give that a browse why not consider buying that for someone's birthday coming up you know to fulfill that essential wars of the successors early hellenistic period ancient history itch that you probably didn't know you have but you will have soon. That's enough rambling from me. I will see you in the next episode.