The Ancients - The Tomb of Tutankhamun

Episode Date: November 10, 2022

In November of 1922, British archaeologist Howard Carter, thanks to benefactor Lord Carnarvon, discovered the untouched tomb of Tutankhamun. Otherwise erased from history, the tomb of this 18th Dynasty Pharaoh would go on to change the world. Undoubtedly cited as one of the greatest archaeological finds in human history, do we really know what happened in November 1922? Or is there more to the story?In the second episode of our Tutankhamun series, Tristan is joined by Egyptologist and author Bob Brier a.k.a. “Mr Mummy”. Together they tell us the details of this groundbreaking discovery, and help illuminate the missing characters. How did Howard Carter stumble across a world changing archaeological find - and was it worth the breakdown in diplomatic relations that followed?Content Warning: This episode contains references to miscarriages that some listeners may find upsetting.For more Ancients content, subscribe to our Ancients newsletter here. If you'd like to learn even more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today!

Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. It's the ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and in today's podcast, well, we are continuing our special November mini-series all about Tutankhamen, ancient Egypt, the Valley of the Kings, and so much more. We're talking today about the discovery of Tutankhamen's tomb a hundred years ago in the Valley of the Kings.

We're going to be talking about important figures such as Howard Carter, such as Lord Carnarvon and many other figures besides them because although they're very important, although those are two names very much aligned, associated with the discovery of Tutankhamun's tomb, there were so many other figures important to this story. We're going to be taking you through the discovery itself and also what happened next because it took years for archaeologists to record and then to remove, to take out all of the treasures discovered within the tomb of Tutankhamen and to talk through this brilliant story of one of the greatest archaeological discoveries in the whole of human history I was delighted to sit down and chat to a few weeks back via zoom because he's the other side of the Atlantic Ocean to myself the American Egyptologist

also known as Mr Mummy Bob Breyer. Bob he is an absolutely fantastic speaker this man has been doing it for decades. He knows the story of Tutankhamun's tomb's discovery and its aftermath inside out and he explains brilliantly in this podcast why this tomb discovery is so significant and how it did change the world, how it changed the shape of the 20th century and the legacy of which we can still see around us today. So without further ado, to talk all about the discovery of Tutankhamun's tomb and what happened next, here's Bob. Bob, Mr Mummy, it is great to have you on the podcast today.

Good to be here. Now, you're here, of course, Tutankhamun, big year for Tutankhamun, as you are very much well aware. I'm going to steal part of the title of your book on this, but the discovery of his tomb, this was a discovery that changed the world. Yes, it's not really just hype. In titles, often people claim all kinds of things to draw the reader's attention, but I don't think it's hype. I think Tutankhamen really did change the world in three ways, and it's kind of interesting. One is the archaeological world. I think Carter's excavation of the tomb, his meticulousness, his care in assembling an all-star team, and he also had this idea that he was going to photograph everything

in situ. Don't move anything until it's photographed, so that you can almost reconstruct the tomb as it was when it was sealed. He really put in things that other excavators didn't use. So I think that's something that really has changed the archaeological world. So it's quite important. There's also political ramifications, which is surprising. Carter and Carnarvon lived in a strange time. Egypt was under colonial rule for the British, and there was a point at which the Egyptians didn't like this, naturally. And as they're excavating, Carter and Carnarvon have this feeling almost that they own the tomb, and they're doing things, they're making very bad decisions, very bad decisions. For example, they were besieged by journalists wanting the story,

of course, worldwide. Everybody wanted the story. And Carnarvon made the decision that to calm things down, to give them some peace and quiet, he sold the exclusive rights to the story to the London Times. Now, this is an Egyptian tomb in Egypt. Egyptian journalists can't get access to the story. And people are furious, absolutely furious. So this raises the consciousness of whose tomb is it? Is it the Brits? Is it ours? So the Egyptians have this sense of nationality now. This is our heritage. And Tutankhamen becomes the poster boy for nationalism. And he's going to be a rallying cry for we want independence. So it's going to take him a long time. It's going to take till the 1950s till they finally throw off foreign rule.

But really, Tutankhamen helped set this ball rolling. So it's another way that he really did, I think, change the world. And there's other ways too. I mean, I can go on all day. I mean, even, for example, I think he changed the world of museums. You know, Tutankhamen is really the first blockbuster exhibit ever. You know, in the 1970s, when it comes to England, to the British Museum, for the 50th anniversary, there were 50 objects. And it was a great success. It was the first time you had a major Tutankhamen exhibit. And then director at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, Thomas Hoving, who was a bit of a huckster, P.T. Barnum type guy, but also a scholar, he got the idea, you can make a lot of money on this. That the idea was that

not only would people come to see it, they would pay. Now, the Met is an interesting museum. It doesn't charge admission because there's a charter with New York City. So it's a free museum. And Hoving couldn't charge admission, but his idea was the gift shop. He was going to have the exhibition and then people were going to have to exit through the gift shop. And he is the one who invents the expensive tchotchke that you can buy in a gift shop. So he sends a team to Egypt to make molds of statues and things and make fabulous reproductions. And he's selling Selkett reproductions for $1,500. And this is the first time you ever get a museum souvenir for $1,500. And he's got designer scarves and he's got Tutankhamen

watches and he's got all of this and he makes a fortune. So this is, in a sense, one of the legacies and one of the ways that Tutankhamen changed the world is by changing the economic model of museums. The blockbuster can make you a fortune. You remember Saturday Night Live had Steve Martin do this great song, King Tut, born in Babylonia, built a condo, made a stone of King Tut. Our American listeners will probably know that better than I do, my friend,

but I'm going to take your word for it. Absolutely. I mean, it's wonderful. But he's not just singing King Tut. He's singing about museum economics. There's a couple of lines in it which says, if I'd have known people would line up to see him, I'd have taken all my money and bought me a museum. So he's talking about the economics of it. So Tut really did change the

world in many ways. I mean, that's a fantastic roundup there, Bob, straight away. As you say, it's not just hype, that archaeological, national and museum economic importance of the discovery of this tomb. I mean, let's go back into the background, first of all, which I love doing, which is before the discovery of the tomb. I want to talk a bit about the place, first of all. I went there recently, the Valley of the Kings. It's such an eerie, incredible landscape. So set the scene, Bob. Where are we talking in Egypt? It's in the south of Egypt on the west bank of the Nile. The Egyptians always buried their dead on the west bank because they believe that when you died, you went west. It's where the sun dies every day. And so they are buried on the west. They live on the east bank. It's on the west bank of the city of Luxor, which is, of course, a great tourist destination. But it's in one of the

most desolate spots in the world. It's a place where the average humidity is something like 22 percent and the temperature can go as high as 120 degrees in the sun. So it's a very desolate place where nothing grows. And the idea was the pharaohs would be buried there because it's a valley which can be easily protected. There's no easy access. There's only one entrance, and that's it. So it's Mars.

It's the surface of Mars. So it's really quite something. I'm sure you had that feeling. I think you're quite right by saying it's something like Mars. And you have to go there to really experience it, don't you? Because all of the artifacts and everything, it's underground. I mean, in my mind, I've got notes like Triassic, dinosaur-like. Once again, it gives that different world feeling, doesn't it? Yes, prehistoric. There's no vegetation. It's unique. You were there when there's tourists during the tourist hours. Imagine when there's nobody there. I mean,

which is how they wanted the valley. There know, there weren't visitors to visit the king's tomb in touch time. This was a well-guarded secret place. So is that the reason, therefore, why Tutankhamun was buried there? Because our minds might instantly think when talking about ancient Egyptian burials, it might immediately think of pyramids or something like that. But has time moved on by the time of Tutankhamun? As you say, it's this new desire to almost conceal where the ruler was buried. Yes. The pyramids were big rob me signs. I mean, they were obvious. You can't hide them. And every pyramid had been robbed well before Tutankhamun's time. So people knew that this wasn't the way to go. This was not the way to do it for a permanent solution to how to be buried forever.

So the first pharaoh to have his tomb in the Valley of the Kings was Thutmose I, right? He's a couple hundred years before Thut, and we have his architect's description. He says, you know, I built for my pharaoh a tomb, no one seeing, no one hearing. Now we wonder, you know, how did he build a secret tomb? Was he using prisoners as the construction workers and then they're killed? But the idea is secrecy. No one's seeing, no one hearing. But then I think when you're going to add more tombs there, if you're going to use the same site over and over again, it's hard to say no one's seeing, no one hearing. So I think at some point it's known the pharaohs are buried in the Valley of the Kings, and then the mode is protected, have guards.

So you're right, it's an evolution from pyramids to solving a problem, pyramid robbing, to Valley of the Kings. And in more recent history then, let's say in the 19th century, before Carter and the discovery of Tutankhamun's tomb, has many people ventured to this part of Egypt to try their luck? Was the knowledge still there that they would try and find ancient Egyptian remnants there? Yes. In the 19th century, there were quite a few tombs that were open. You could actually just walk in, see paintings on the wall, no artifacts in there. They'd all been looted. But for the most part, you could see a dozen tombs if you went there in, say, 1870 or something like that. And then archaeologists got the idea of

maybe there's some hidden tombs, some more. So in the late 18th century, Victor Lorette does some excavations in the Valley of the Kings, and he finds tombs that nobody had seen. They've been plundered, but still some artifacts are there. So we're getting more and more tombs now. We're getting up to tomb 34, tomb 35, and Titus 62. So we've got half the tombs now. And from the late 19th century, we're going to get another 30 tombs, all plundered. Tut is the only one found intact with the pharaoh in his sarcophagus. I mean, it's extraordinary how far it does go back. Sorry, I'm going very far back here, but I find that really, really interesting because the late 18th century, so that's, I'm guessing that's the time of Napoleon and his expedition into Egypt.

And then following that, you have the likes of William Banks and Belzoni in that area of the world, too. So these are the people who've been there before and the Seti, the first tomb and all of that. That's already come to light much, much earlier on before Tutankhamun and the stories of today. Absolutely. Absolutely. The valley is well known as the burial place of the pharaohs. And we know even some of the pharaohs, because some of the tombs are open. Like you mentioned Belzoni, the Italian strongman who goes to the Valley of the Kings and finds the tomb of Seti I with his alabaster sarcophagus there, which is in London today. He drags it out, tries to sell it to the British Museum. They don't buy it. And then it's bought. So it's a fabulous sarcophagus. But that's the kind of thing that was left behind, things too heavy to loot. So they're looking for treasures to sell. That's the purpose of excavation in the valley in the 19th century, you know,

getting money. So focusing on these antiquities, therefore, at the time of, just prior to Tutankhamun's discovery, how were antiquities from places such as the Valley of Kings, do we know how they were displayed, how they were sourced, where they were put? For instance, in nearby Luxor at that time, did they have on display artifacts supposedly that people had uncovered earlier from the Valley of the Kings? 1860s, 1870s, there's no museum in Luxor. There's nothing like that. It's the Wild West. Any artifacts from the Valley of the Kings at this time are going to appear on the antiquities market and wealthy travelers are going to buy them and bring them back to whatever country they're from. So there is no museum or anything like that. As a

matter of fact, in the 19th century, nobody knew who Tutankhamen was, for example. His tomb hadn't been found. He was a minor pharaoh. His name has been erased from history. Nobody knew who Tut was. Well, in that case then, Bob, let's go on to Tut and let's go on to the excavation itself He was a minor pharaoh. His name has been erased from history. Nobody knew who Tut was. Well, in that case then, Bob, let's go on to Tut and let's go on to the excavation itself. And you mentioned his name earlier. So set the scene with this figure. Who was Howard Carter? Carter is a wonderful story. You know, I did this book, Tutankhamen and the Tomb that Changed the World, and the book didn't go as I planned. I thought for the 100th anniversary of Tutte's discovery, I would do a kind of survey of research done on Tutankhamen in the past 100 years. Everybody thinks that Howard Carter discovers the tomb, the objects are moved to the Egyptian

Museum in Cairo, they're put in glass cases, end of story. But the story doesn't end there at all. So I thought I'd do a survey of the research and that'd be worthwhile doing and it'd be interesting. People would find new things and stuff like that. But it really didn't go the way I thought it would. The only thing that went the way I thought it would is the story of the discovery. And that's still the same. And it's a kind of story that's made for the movies. It's Howard Carter, a down-on-his-luck archaeologist, really impoverished, scrambling to survive, and the wealthy Lord Carnarvon, who is an amateur archaeologist and thought it would be good to excavate in Egypt. And they team

up, and for years they excavate together. Not in the Valley of the Kings, they're not allowed yet, but they excavate together. But Cart is smart. He knows that the name Tutankhamen has been written on some objects. He knows that something has been found in the Valley of the Kings, a cup with the name of Tutankhamen on it. And he knows that Tutankhamen is missing. He knows the tomb has not been found. So Carnarvon and Carter are biding their time, waiting till late and get the concession to excavate in the Valley of the Kings. The Egyptian antiquity service has to give you a permit. And at that point, someone else had the permit, so they couldn't excavate. So this person who has the permit to give you a permit. And at that point, someone else had the permit, so they couldn't excavate. So this person who has the permit eventually gives up the permit,

and then Carter and Carnarvon jump on it. They take the permit, and they're looking for Tutankhamen's tomb, and eventually they find it. So it's one of these made-for-television or made-for-the-movies stories with a happy ending, so to speak. They discover the treasures, everything's wonderful, but you even have a curse. Lord Carnarvon dies soon after the discovery from an infected mosquito bot and I had a curse, but we have a curse. We have a successful treasure hunt. It's got all the elements of a movie, but that is the story that's always told and it's right. It's accurate. That never changed. So Carter is this archaeologist down on his luck. Carnarvon's the wealthy benefactor and they find it. Before he receives permission to excavate in the Valley of the Kings, did Carter have much experience in the Valley of the Kings before then? What do we know about his time as an archaeologist before that point?

uneducated. And what I mean by that is, as far as I know, he never even went to school. He came from a family of artists and he had real talent. And he was sent out at the age of 17 to be an artist on an excavation. So that's how he starts. Not much education and he's never going to get any more formal education. So he goes out, becomes an artist, and he's doing quite well for the first couple of years. He's a teenager on excavations, and then people realize he's got other skills. He's bright, he's industrious, and he learns how to excavate. He eventually becomes an excavator, and even better, he becomes an inspector in the antiquity service. He rises up to be an official within the service des antiquités, as it's called then, run by the French. He becomes an inspector, and he is chief inspector of the Luxor area, Upper Egypt. So he knows the area.

He knows the area very well. And he's been watching other people excavate in the Valley of the Kings. And he is probably the most knowledgeable person about the Valley of the Kings alive. So he's the right guy to look for Tut. Certainly the right guy to look for Tut. So therefore, Bob, take it away with your brilliant storytelling. Take it away about how the excavations begin. What do we know about once Carnarvon and Carter,

they get permission to excavate in the Valley of the Kings, what happens next? They get permission and it's several years of searching for the tomb with no luck. And then after a few years, they meet at Highclere Castle, which is where Carnarvon lives. And Carnarvon says, I think we've done enough. We're not going to find it. We've been going for years. That's it. Carter does this wonderful gesture. I mean,

I don't think he could follow through, but he says to Carnarvon, give me one more year and we're going to find him and I'll pay for that year. Carnarvon has the permit. Of course, Carter can't afford it. But Carnarvon is a good man. He says, all right, one more year, I'll pay for it. And they find it, this step leading down to a tomb. And Carnarvon at the time of the first discovery is in England. And Carter telegrams him and says, have made wonderful discovery. Await your arrival. So he waits for Carter for the great discovery. They clear this descending passageway. They find a blocked wall and they make a hole in the wall. Carter holds up a candle, you know, peers through this little hole and Carnarvon's anxious. He says, what do you see? What do you see? And Carter says, wonderful things, fabulous treasures. But one thing about

Carter, as I say, he's meticulous. He's smart, he understands, he knows he's over his head. This is such a major discovery that he's going to need a team. This isn't the kind of thing one archaeologist, you know, and a couple of workers can do. So he forms an all-star team before he does anything, and he knows he's going to need it. So for example, he needs a great photographer. He wants a photographer to photograph everything. The Metropolitan Museum of Art loans Carter their master photographer, Harry Burton, and he will spend 10 years photographing the tomb. It's going to take 10 years to clear this tomb. There's so much treasure in it, and they're going to do it slowly, and they're going to do it properly. And you have these beautiful, beautiful Burton photographs, black and white mostly. So Carter forms this team. You

have Burton as a photographer. He also knows the objects are going to be fragile. So you need a conservator. So he gets the best conservator around. Alfred Lucas, who's a chemist who specializes in antiquities with the antiquity service. And he's got the services of Lucas. And he's putting together engineers to move heavy objects in case they have to be moved. He's got this team together and he knows what he's doing. It's going to take them 10 years to clear this tomb in case they have to be moved. He's got this team together and he knows what he's doing. It's going to take them 10 years to clear this tomb, but it's going to be done right with a fabulous record of it in Burton's photographs. And I'm guessing all of this stuff, as it's being taken out from what you highlighted at the beginning too, those key parts of

archaeological practice, everything is going to be recorded as it was in situ and everything is going to be written down, preserved so that people can look at these records in the years ahead. Yes, one of the wonderful things we have, because Carter's an artist, we have Burton's photographs, but Carter's also doing these fabulous drawings of things that might be lost in photographs. For example, wonderful beadwork necklaces that are on the mummy, which may not be taken off because they're so fragile. Carter's doing these drawings on these index cards that are fabulous, and he gives each one a number. So everything is recorded with Carter. I mean, he's very, very meticulous,

and it's a great record in many ways. Hi there, I'm Don Wildman, the host of the brand new podcast, American History Hit. Join me twice a week as I explore the past to help us understand the United States today. You'll hear how codebreakers uncovered secret Japanese plans for the Battle of Midway, visit Chief Poetin as he prepares for war with the British, see Walt Disney accuse his former colleagues of being communists, and uncover the hidden history that lies beneath Central Park. From pre-colonial America to independence, slavery to civil rights, the gold rush to the space race,

I'll be speaking to leading experts to delve into America's past. New episodes dropping every Monday and Thursday. So join me on American History Hit, a podcast by History Hit. One thing I'd like to ask is how did the Egyptians react to the discovery of Tutankhamen's tomb with all of the objects still there? Because if I remember correctly from a recent chat, it's a water boy who discovers that first step when he's putting one of those amphora in the ground. So when news gets out, what is the reaction in Egypt straight away? The first reaction is wonderful. They've got a new tomb, there are treasures,

we've got a new pharaoh. This is great. Now, remember, Tutankhamen is unknown virtually. When Carter first discovers the tomb, there are songs coming out about Tut. People are writing songs to cash in. And it's 1923. Now, they haven't gotten to the burial chamber yet. So they haven't opened the coffin. They don't know that Tutankhamen is a boy king. They don't know that he's a teenager. So the songs are all about old King Tut. And they show this old pharaoh on the cover with a cigar in his mouth, that kind of thing. So very little is known about Tut, but everybody's ecstatic until it all goes pear-shaped, until Carter and Carnarvon make some really bad decisions with Carnarvon giving the rights to the London Times. Also, what's terrible is they open the tomb, they see the treasures, and Carter invites

the wives of his team to visit the tomb, a special showing, which is great. So you have Alfred Lucas's wife, you have Sir Alan Gardner's wife, you have all these people, but he doesn't invite the wives of the Egyptian officials who are also involved. And this creates really, really bad feelings. And not only that, when the Egyptians say, can you invite our wives, you know, the officials want their wives to see it. Carter says, no, he's acting as if this is his tomb. And eventually there is such a clash between the Egyptian antiquity service and Carter because of these bad decisions, that Carter is locked out of the tomb. He says he's not going to let anybody in. They lock him out. And he's locked out for a year. He cannot excavate for a year. It is sealed. At first,

it's great, wonderful discovery. But then they make these very bad decisions and it all goes bad. Now, Carter's locked out and he's fuming, still thinks it's his tomb. And he publishes a booklet on his own called The Statement, which is his view of how things have gone. He has a real contentious attitude in this statement. What he says is basically, you know, I would be happy to have other people visit the tomb if it was for the benefit of the tomb, but it's not, this is all about publicity, this, that. He also claims, in a sense, that he owns the objects in the tomb, he and Carnarvon. It's a very, very difficult situation that Carter has gotten himself into. The contract for the excavation in the Valley of the Kings explicitly stated that if an intact

tomb is found, everything stays in Egypt, because you want the collection complete. This is so important. So everybody knew if an intact tomb is found, it stays in Egypt. No division of the finds. In Carter's day, you would divide the finds. The excavator would take half and the Egyptian antiquity service takes half. Nope. Intact tomb, antiquity service gets everything. But there is evidence, and it's real evidence, that the tomb was robbed in antiquity. Probably the robbers were caught as they were doing it because there's very little damage. There are some evidences of things being thrown around a bit, but it looks like the robbers were caught as they were in the act. So now, is it an intact tomb or is it a robbed tomb? And of course, Carnarvon and Carnarvon are going to say, well, it's not intact. So anyway, Carter is claiming that these objects, half of them are going to be his.

And the antiquity service is saying, no, no, it's virtually an intact tomb. It's really intact. It stays here. And Carter in the statement is saying, well, you know, you can't even tell me that this is all your stuff because we're going to own some of it. So that's another bone of contention, but I'll give you how bad it gets. In the statement, Carter objects that the Egyptian government plans on publishing a guidebook about the Tutankhamen objects. Carter says, we have the rights to publication. You can't publish a guidebook about Tutankhamen objects, and it's not clear that you're going to own all of them. So there's this real contentiousness in the statement. So there's real anger, and he doesn't make it easier. I mean,

Carter does not smooth things over ever. So Carter is locked out, and he sails off to North America on a lecture tour because he's got nothing else to do. So for a year, he is lecturing in America and Canada. And then I think what happens, fortunately for Carter and Carnarvon and the tomb, when Carter comes back to Egypt, everybody realizes that Carter is the man for the excavation. They really need his skills. He was doing a great job and they're trying to work it out. His friends are trying to work it out. They sort of keep Carter out of it because he's kind of a bull in a china shop.

He's not somebody who's very, very reconciliatory. So anyway, eventually they agree. Carter will continue the excavation, which he does for another eight years or so. And finally the tomb is emptied. And that's the story. You know, Carnarvon, of course, is dead by now. And Carter dies in 1939, pretty much a loner. It's such an interesting end to his story and also to hear because sometimes we focus on the discovery itself and never what happened next so it's lovely to actually focus on this story too i guess we can't really cover all of those 80 years now in the 10 minutes or so that we've got left but talk to me therefore so there are thousands of objects in the tomb takes a lot

of time with this incredible team to sort and to record these objects. And then the next big question is, how do they get all of these objects out of the tomb to where they're going to be going to next? Well, many of the objects are fragile. And Lucas the chemist is very good at moving fragile objects. What they did sometimes when things are very fragile, they would pour paraffin over it, wax, and it would cool, stabilize it. And then you can move the object and later you can heat it and the wax comes off. So it's a reversible procedure. So for the fragile objects, Lucas is conserving. They get thousands of yards of linen to bandage these things, and many of these crates are carried to the Nile from the tomb. And then they're put on

a steamer to go to Cairo, and they're going to the Egyptian Museum in Cairo. And as objects are brought out, they do another shipment. It's not all shipped at once by any means. For example, it's going to take a whole year to clear just one room. So it takes a long time, but it's all going to the Egyptian Museum in Cairo, registered in Cairo, but Carter has also registered it in his own log. So everything's registered twice. And as it's coming, it's being put on display. So as early as a year after the discovery, you have some objects on display. Then the next year, we'll put more in, and the next year, more and more, until you get the great Tutankhamen display that used to be in the old Egyptian Museum in Cairo. Before we go to the first year of actually on display in the museum, we've got to go back to

the archaeology point, something which you highlighted right at the start the significance of the tomb and the excavation for the field of archaeology but therefore please elaborate on how the methodology of the excavation and the photography how this all changes the course changes the shape of archaeology for the better from there going forwards i can give you an example a little more than 10 years before Howard Carter's discovery, an Italian excavator, Ernesto Schiaparelli, discovered an intact tomb in the Valley of the Queens. It was a tomb of an architect named Kai and his wife Merit. He was the royal architect, very high scale, and everything's intact. He excavated it. We don't have a single photo, not a single photo of that tomb, nothing. It's all in the Turin Museum now. It's in Turin, Italy, but there's no photos, none. Carter is really setting the standards. He's showing people how to do this, and it's going to be followed by people for generations after. You know, there are a lot of things that can be said about Carter, negative things about his personality, whatever, but nobody faults his excavation techniques. He's really doing things carefully,

and he wants to get it right. So, for example, sometimes there'll be a chest in which Tutankhamen's clothes were placed. Now, clothes are fragile. It's linen that can tear. So what you do is you have Harry Burton, the photographer, takes the picture. Alfred Lucas, the chemist, comes in,

pours his paraffin on it, lifts off that. Now you have another layer, and Burton comes in to photograph. Lucas comes in to conserve the next layer of clothes, lifts it off. Burton comes in, and this could take a week for a large chest of clothes. So it's meticulous, carefulist recording and preserving. It's something we're all indebted to Carter for. And Bob, I think that's something really to stress right there, isn't it? The amount of organic material that was uncovered in the tomb that was intact, if I'm correct. Was it sweet-smelling aromatics or something?

Or was it flowers or something on the sarcophagus itself? Which sometimes that part of the story is overlooked. But as you've mentioned, thanks to photography, thanks to the records, the detailed records that survived this excavation, we know all of this stuff. We know even things that perhaps don't survivevation. We know all of this stuff. We know even things that perhaps don't survive today, we know were there. That's right. No, no, no. It's a great gift that we have from Carter. And you know, part of the problem, of course, is there are so many objects in the tomb that people don't know about some of the fascinating ones. I mean,

there was great stuff in that tomb. That's why I originally intended to write the book just about the things, you know, the research done, but it became more of a story than that. Let's move on, therefore. You mentioned how they go to Cairo, into the museum there. Talk to me about the reception of this exhibition. It's in the first year that it opens. What do we know about its popularity? The popularity continues for the next 10 years, because it's not just one week of discovery. It's going to go on for 10 years, and you're going to find great things. You know, after a year of excavating, they finally get into the burial chamber and they're going to see Tutankhamen. You know, you don't see the fabulous gold mask for another year. You know,

they find the tomb, but you don't have the gold mask yet. So there's new discoveries every year. Just think about it. Looking on the face of Tutankhamen, you're staring at the face of a pharaoh. It's incredible. And you have the solid gold coffin. He's buried in a solid gold coffin that weighs 320 pounds. Nothing like that has ever been seen. So we've got the mummy. We've got the gold coffin. We've got religious texts written on shrines. We've got all kinds of things. And every year, there's something new, something just as good. Next year, we get Tutankhamen's chariots. He's buried with six chariots. That's incredible.

Next year, we get this. So it's constantly being rediscovered every year, and the newspapers are playing it up. You, in England, have the Illustrated London News, which is wonderful, and they're featuring Harry Burton's photographs. So everybody gets this weekly, and you're seeing the latest news on Tutte. In France, they had the counterpart, the Illustration, another weekly newspaper, which is illustrated. So everybody's following this thing, and it increases tourism incredibly. What tourists are doing, they can't go into the tomb. They're excavating. What they do is they

wait outside for hours in the sun, waiting to see what Carter brings up. They want to see the next object that comes up and they've all got their little brownie cameras and they're trying to take their pictures. So tourists are waiting to see what Tuts has to offer. It's absolutely incredible. I'm guessing at the same time, getting all those people to see it, I've got to talk about inspiration in Egypt and I'm presuming outside of Egypt too. Does this discovery and the showing of these objects and then having them on display, that whole story, does it inspire a lot more, well, a new almost generation of archaeologists maybe wanting to excavate in the Valley of the Kings,

but more to find out more about ancient Egypt in general? It certainly created what I call tutmania. You know, we have a broader class called Egyptomania. All these things that are indications of the fascination with ancient Egypt. So we do get lots of objects, decorative objects for the home that are made in the style of ancient Egypt or Tutankhamen, things like that. Even just simple things like cigarette cases with Tutankhamen on them or, you know, things like that. But I think it did indeed inspire people to become archaeologists. People realized it's not just for the treasure. It becomes clear that we're learning a lot about the boy king. We're learning about ancient Egypt. So I think it did help in many, many ways. It helped tourism. It helped archaeology. It helped finances of museums. It helped all kinds of things. It's a win-win situation. It really is. Absolutely a win-win situation. From what you're saying, with Tasmania, does it continue down even until the outbreak of World War II, so more than 15 years

later after the actual discovery of the tomb? Oh, I think it's still with us today. Well, very true. Yes, indeed. I mean, think about it. I think the most famous artifact from the ancient world is the gold mask. I don't think there's anything more recognizable than Tutankhamen's gold mask. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals.

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got to be King Tut. So I think he is the most famous. And I think there's a combination. It's partly So I think he is the most famous. And I think there's a combination. It's partly the treasure. They are beautiful artifacts crafted for a king. So they have the royal workshops because they can do the best possible work. But I think it's also the story. You know, he dies as a teenager. He's married to Anka Sinaman, his half-sister, who's also about 18, 19, you know. I was very fortunate. My specialty is mummies. Most Egyptologists have specialties. Mine is mummies. And I was very fortunate. My specialty is mummies. Most Egyptologists have specialties.

Mine is mummies. And I was very fortunate to be allowed to examine the fetuses in the tomb. There were two miscarriages that Ankesen Amin had. One at about five months and one at about eight months. And these little fetuses were mummified and put in little tiny coffins. And they'd been unwrapped and I wanted to examine them. So I got permission to look at them. And it was rather sad looking at these two little girls who never got to be people. But there's lots of aspects of the tomb that are really quite fascinating. And I think it's going to continue. We're going to learn more about Tutankhamen. The whole story hasn't been written. And that is incredible how there is still so much more. And you mentioned how before we started

chatting, you know, you've been approached by all of these different publications to write at the time of this centenary of Tutankhamun's discovery. But one thing I really noticed where you mentioned there before we started talking was, let's say, there's some objects that are linked to a meteorite west of the river Naur, which are absolutely incredible, isn't it? That's another great story. Yeah, yeah, that's a fun thing. You know, in my book, I have a chapter which, just to bother the ancient alien people, it's called It Came From Outer Space. And I'm sure when they see what it's about, they'll be terribly disappointed. There are five or so items that were found in Tutankhamun's tomb that were made of iron. Now the real mystery there is

where did the iron come from? The Egyptians did not have iron. Iron is very difficult to get out of the stone. So for example, they had copper, they had bronze, but no iron. But Tutankhamen was buried with an iron dagger. And recent studies have shown it's meteoritic. It comes from a meteorite. So the Egyptians knew about this, by the way, because they had a word for iron. One of it is iron from the sky. The way they said it in ancient Egypt was bia mpet. Bia is iron, m is in, and pet was sky. Bia mpet, iron from the sky. So they must have seen a meteor come down and hammered this thing out of the iron, you know, because meteors are mainly iron and nickel. So this thing's a beautiful object, a blade, but it's just a fabulous thing

that they had this meteoritic iron in the tomb. I love that story. So I'm so glad we could mention that just before we start wrapping up. I mean, Bob, this has been an absolutely incredible chat about the discovery. And of course, we focused largely on Carter today. But I must ask this question also about unsung heroes in the story of the discovery of King Tut's tomb. Alongside Carter, when you're doing your research and in your book, I mean, are there any other figures who you really think are unsung heroes in this story? I think almost all the members of the team. You get Burton, of course, doing the photography. And, you know, he was so interested in this story? I think almost all the members of the team. You get Burton, of course, doing the photography. And, you know, he was so interested in this thing that they

actually sent him to Hollywood to learn to use a movie camera so he could take some movie clips of the research going on. So Burton is great. I think Lucas, the chemist, he saved many of these objects for us. We wouldn't have a lot of these objects if it weren't for his, you know, he set up in an empty tomb in the Valley of the King, a conservation laboratory, and he would work for hours and hours on these things. There were lots of people who were really part of this team and Carter gave them credit. He did. He was very good about sharing that credit. So there were loads of people that were on that team. I'm presuming the Egyptian workforce as well, which must have been so pivotal in the discovery and then helping getting all the objects out too. Absolutely. Well, Bob, this has been absolutely fantastic.

Last but certainly not least, you've hinted at it already, you've written a book for the centenary, which is called? It's called Tutankhamen and the Tomb that Changed the World. This has been an absolutely great chat, as mentioned, and it just goes to me to say, Bob, Mr. Mummy, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today. A pleasure. Thanks for having me. Well, there you go. There was Bob Ryer, Mr. Mummy, talking you through the story of how Tutankhamun's tomb was discovered 100 years ago. And then the fascinating afterlife, the story of what happened next. As Carter went through ups and downs and the many others involved in this excavation and recording of the treasures of Tutankhamun.

The many years that followed in the whole archaeological process that ensued following the discovery of the tomb itself. I hope you enjoyed the episode with Bob today. Now, last things from me. Well, you know what I'm going to say. If you'd be kind enough to leave us a lovely rating on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts from, we, the whole team, we greatly appreciate it as we continue to share these incredible stories from our distant past with you. Tut Thursdays is continuing, but don't you worry.

We've talked about Tutankhamen, we've talked about his tomb, but we've got a lot of things to talk about now in our next couple of Thursdays. We've talked briefly about the Valley of the Kings, we're going to go and do a deep delve into that next week with the brilliant friend of the podcast, the brilliant Egyptologist, Dr. Chris Naunton. So stay tuned for that. But that's enough rambling on from me, and I'll see you in the next episode. Thank you.