The Ancients - The White Huns

Episode Date: August 17, 2025

The Huns weren’t just Attila’s warriors in Europe — in Central Asia, the White Huns built the most powerful Hunnic empire, ruling for a century and dominating the ancient Silk Roads.While the European Huns fought Rome, the White Huns commanded trade routes, overthrew kingdoms, and waged relentless campaigns across Central and South Asia. Their influence reached from Persia to India, transforming politics, warfare, and culture. In today's episode of The Ancients, Tristan Hughes is joined by Professor Hyun Jin Kim to uncover the origins, rise, and legacy of this formidable yet often overlooked empire.MOREAttila the Hun: Scourge of God:https://open.spotify.com/episode/7y5w7yyVOqwYxvqHAAfthi?si=0a9aaff5b64b4d36Attila the Hun: Terror of Rome:https://open.spotify.com/episode/5f12sJEHRH8KPrQCopenrG?si=1bb6c6b6b8164deaPresented by Tristan Hughes. Audio editor is Aidan Lonergan and the producer is Joseph Knight. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff.All music courtesy of Epidemic SoundsThe Ancients is a History Hit podcast.LIVE SHOW: Buy tickets for The Ancients at the London Podcast Festival here: https://www.kingsplace.co.uk/whats-on/words/the-ancients-2/Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener survey here: https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on

Hey guys, Tristan here, and I have an exciting announcement. The Ancients will be returning to the London Podcast Festival. Now, last year tickets, they sold out at record speed. So this time, we've been upgraded. We've got a bigger room. And you, you can be there too on Friday the 5th of September at 7pm at King's Place. Now, I've invited Friend of the podcast, the fabulous Dr. Eve MacDonald, to join me on stage, where we will be exploring the gripping story.

of ancient Carthage. Carthage, the Phoenician city that became a superpower, an empire that rivaled Rome for control in the Western Mediterranean, and ultimately had a terrible traumatic demise. Of course, the ancients is nothing without you, so we want you to be there in the audience taking part and asking us your burning questions. Tickets for the festival are always so fast.

So book yourself a seat now at www. dot UK forward slash what's on. We'll click the link in the show notes of this episode. The team and I cannot wait to see you there. Hello guys. Welcome to this latest episode of the ancients and we are going to Central Asia to talk through the story of a group of Huns not very well known here in the West. And yet they forged one of the largest empires in ancient history. They dominated the Persians and so much more. They are the white hunts. And to tell their story today is Professor Hyunjin Kim, who dialed in from Melbourne in Australia. I am so happy that we are now covering this story on the ancients. It's a brilliant one. I hope you guys enjoy. Let's go.

Say the Hunts, and you'll probably think of rows upon rows of horse archers descending on the Roman empires and wrecking havoc, led by their immortalized leader Attila, the scourge of God. But that was just the western fringe of the Huns' great story. These people left their mark across the length of Eurasia, including in Central Asia, where the most powerful Hunnic State ever forged Rose and Reign Supreme for a century. We know them today as the White Hunts. So what do we know about their story? And just how powerful did this empire become? This is the story of the White Hunts, with our guest, Professor Xun Jin Kim. Jhin, it is such a pleasure to have you back on the podcast. Thank you for inviting me again. It's great to

see you. You're more than welcome. It's been a couple of years since we recorded those two bumper episodes on Attila the Hun. But the story of the Hunts, it's so much more than just Attila and this westward expansion into Europe, isn't it? And that feels to be defined by this other great Hunnic empire, if not superpower, that emerges in Central Asia, the White Huns. Yes, indeed. The White Huns may be unfamiliar to many in the West, but they had an enormous impact on historical developments in the Iranian world, in Central Asia, and of course also in India as well. And so certainly it is a topic worth talking about. So when and where are we talking about with the story of the Whitehans? How many centuries are we going to be covering?

We will be covering roughly. It depends on how far we want to go. So their history begins in the fourth century, in the middle of the fourth century, and later Heftelais or Weishun remnants. They are still around until the middle of the 9th century. Now, I don't think we'll get as far as the 9th century, but certainly we can cover the imperial period, which goes up to the middle of the 6th century AD. It's just such an amazing story, because as you highlighted here in the West, we don't know the name White Hunts. If you've heard about it, it's a very enigmatic story, but an extraordinary one. My first question is, why do we call them white hunts? Why are they given a color. Yes, it's because the Huns identified cardinal directions by colors. And so in

Inner Asia, imperial states usually identify, they divide their empires into constituent parts. And usually those parts would be associated with a cardinal direction, and that cardinal direction is then equated with a particular color. East is identified with the color blue, and the north with the color black, west with white, and red with south. And so white hens designate the western hans. So there are these four principal components, but black and blue is combined to form the eastern half of the imperial stage in the honey context, and white and red also formed the western half.

So the Western Huns would have precedence in the Hunic imperial structure over the red Huns, and the blue Huns would have precedence over the black Huns. And the East would usually outrank the West as well in the Imperial Confederation. So that is why the White Huns are referred to as the White Huns. And unfortunately, Procopius, our Roman source, in the 6th century, heard this and thought, oh, that must mean the white hans are, you know, very fair and they're white skin and are not swarthy or reddish like the European hans that supposedly were. But of course, the name Weishan has nothing to do with skin color and has everything to do with their position in the

wider honic world. They were the Western Huns. But it's interesting that you stress Western Huns there, because at the end of the day, you do also have Attila and Huns even further the West going into Europe. So were they seen as almost beyond the colour scale? If in that mindset, they already see the white hunts in Central Asia as being in the West? Well, I think the European Huns would have been seen as Northern Huns. So I think there is some evidence to suggest that they were the Black Huns. And so the White Huns are Western when you look at it from the perspective of the Blue Huns who stay in the East. And so from the perspective of the Blue Huns, the White Hans who are in the West, the White Hans who in

invade Central Asia and Persia are to their west, whereas the European Huns are, of course, to their northwest. So they are the northern huns. And of course, after a while, originally, of course, they formed part of a single political entity. They most probably formed part of a single political entity. The Chinese sources definitely say that, but by the fifth century, we're not looking at a unified political entity. The European Huns, Attila's Huns are a different political entity from, say, the Weish Huns. And in fact, Chinese sources tell us that. They tell us that you shouldn't confuse the two groups. They're both Huns, but they're ruled by different rulers, indicating that political division had taken place by then. Those

empires were too massive by that stage to be a single ruler. So the political unity of the Hanuk world had broken down, certainly by the 5th century. You mentioned their Chinese sources, and also earlier this figure of Procopius. So, Hienjin, can you let us know what types of source material we have for learning about the White Huns and their story in Central Asia? So in terms of source material, the majority of our sources are Chinese, and the most important source is the Wei Shi.

The Wei Shi is the dynastic history, the annals of the Northern Wei dynasty of China. Now, the Northern Wei were not a native Chinese dynasty. They were a Mongolic people who conquered northern China, so we call them the Toba Shembe in Mandarin, but in early Middle Chinese, their name was probably pronounced something like Pokbal Serbi. Now, these people, of course, being Mongolic and having originated in the steps, they knew the steps very well. They knew inner Asia very well. They were contemporaneous with the Weishans.

They had diplomatic relations with the Weishans, exchanged their ambassadors, so they knew the Weishans very well. And so the Weishu is the most critically important source because they provide us with the most accurate information about the Weishanic Empire. The other source that is important for our purposes is to Liangshu. This is another Chinese historical source that is roughly contemporaneous with the Weishan. Well, it is actually contemporaneous with the Weishans, but it is preserved, a lot of it is preserved in a later source. And so in that sense, because of issues associated with preservation, etc. Not all of it can be seen as contemporaneous, but it does provide us with very important information about the White Han state as well. That source comes

from southern China, so from Chinese China, ethnically Chinese China. The Wei Luea, which is an even earlier source from the third century, is also important because it helps us to geographically identify the Hanuk state before it splinters into the blackhams, the white hans, etc. So, Those are the Eastern sources. And we also have inscriptions and numismatic evidence from Central Asia and India. These are in a variety of languages. The Whitehans themselves are used to all kinds of languages for the purposes of administration. So they would strike coins or issue administrative documents in Sogdian, which is Central Asian

language, Bactrian. Yes, it's in Uzbekistan today, yes. And then, of course, Bakfyan, which was a language spoken in northern Afghanistan, Middle Persian, which is the language of the Iranian-Sasanian Empire, which was conquered by the Weishans. The Brahmi script, of course, this is the script of northern India, and the Gundara script, which was a script which gradually disappeared, but was used in what is now northern Pakistan. So the Weishans used all of these scripts, as well as, of course, their native language. They refer to themselves as hans, but they also take on a variety of identities in order to rule these disparate regions. So there are many inscriptions and

coins that give us some information about the white hans coming from Central Asia in particular and also from northern India. And then we, of course, have the Greco-Roman sources from the 6th century, which also do provide us with some tidbits of information. Priscus, who is a historian writing in the 5th century, is actually the best of these sources, but unfortunately he only survives in fragments. So he does tell us something about the Kidderites, who we will talk about, I think, Leisha, the first dynasty to rule the White Hunnic Empire, and then Procopius later, tells us, well, gives us tit and bits of information about the Hephaelites,

who are the second imperial dynasty to ruled the White Hanuk state. It is such an amazing part of the world that the white huns will ultimately rule over. As you mentioned, all those different cultures, Sogdian, Bactrian, Persian, Gandhara, the Guptas in India as well, and this amazing kind of meshing together, as had happened, and as we've done in a previous podcast episode on the Kushan Empire. Once again, you get that amazing mix of cultures, and we'll explore that as time goes on. We've got inscriptions, we've got numismatic evidence in coinage. Has there been much archaeological work done in Central Asia that has revealed remains from the White Huns or DNA evidence on particular burials? Yes, not so much in terms of DNA evidence. I wish more research could be done in Central Asia,

but obviously given the political instability of the region. And unfortunately, the political center of the Whitehuanic state was Bactria, which, as you know, lies in northern Afghanistan, which is current North Afghanistan. And of course, archaeological research there is, extremely difficult, given the unfortunate modern political circumstances of the region. And so, yes, the archaeological research has been done in the past, but it is limited. But we do have a ton of numismatic evidence, which helps us to identify the Weishans and also find out about the names of some of their kings. But of course, the main problem is that a narrative history for the Weishans is largely

lacking. We're almost entirely dependent upon records left by. the enemies of the Weishans. That is their enduring misfortune, that their dynastic chronicles did not survive. And so we're dependent on what the Sassadian, Persians tell us about them, and what the Romans tell us about them. And of course, what the Chinese tell us about them. The Chinese sources tend to be more neutral. And so they are, for the most part, a bit more reliable. You mentioned there the Kidderites. Let's start exploring what we know about the Huns, beginning with the Kiddurites and the forming of this white hun state in Central Asia.

How do the white hans end up in what is today Uzbekistan and Afghanistan and start forming a state there? Yes. So the Wei Lue, which is the source that we mentioned earlier, the earliest source that is important for a consideration, that source tells us that the Shungnu, after they had been expelled from their native homeland in Mongolia, settled in the Altai region. So this is Western Mongolia, eastern Kazakhstan, that area. And from there,

and the Wailu tells us that the Huns were situated there until the middle of the 3rd century. Then thereafter, the Wei Shue, that other source from northern China, which was the dynastic chronicle of the Tohba, Shenbei,

Northern Wei dynasty, that source tells us that the weaker segment of the Huns were, left behind in that region, and eventually conquered much of eastern Kazakhstan and became the Yuebun Shungu, or the Yueban Huns. So these presumably were the blue Huns, the people who stayed in the East, but they were visibly weaker when the Northern Way compared them with the other Hanuk states further

west. And so the Chronicles of the Northern Way tell us that these more westerly hans, who broke off from the Blue Huns, or the Yueban Huns, were much more powerful. So they are referred to as the strong Huns. And by the middle of the 4th century, the way Shu tells us, these Huns conquered Sogir. So they conquer the Kangju kingdom that used to rule over what is now Uzbekistan. That is about 350 AD. And then just 10 years later, they conquer much of Afghanistan from the Sasanian Persians. The Sasanian Persians, at this time ruled by Shapur II, ruled over Afghanistan via a collateral branch of their dynasty, the so-called Kushan Shars. So these are Sasanian royals

who, after the Sasan conquest of the Kushan Empire, assume the rulership of the Kushans. So they are Persians ruling over the Kushans in former Kushan territories in Afghanistan, and And the hans, the white hans come over and they conquer northern Afghanistan from these Sasanians and end the Sasanian Kushansha's. But then these hans, the Kitterites, so then after they take over, assume the title Kushan Shah, which then throws off a whole generation of scholars who then thought, oh, these Kitterites must then be not Hans, but Iranian Kushans who had a revival of sorts. So there was a lot of confusion around this.

And a very famous Indo-Asian scholar of Japanese extraction, Professor Enoki fell for this, unfortunately, and he thought that the Huns were an Iranian people, a native Iranian people, who reconstituted the Kushan Empire. But, of course, more recent numismatic evidence that was studied by scholars has shown conclusively that that is definitely not the case. the language that was spoken by the incoming Weishans was most likely a Turkic language. After they had settled in these regions, of course they used all these other languages as well

for administrative purposes, but their original language, the names of their early kings, are almost definitely Turkish. So the reason why the early Weishans are referred to as the Kidderites is because of coins that refer to one of their early kings. The name is Kidara. Now, that is almost certainly not his personal name, because Kidara is probably just a local corruption of the old Turkic word Kidirati, which means West.

So, Waichung, the color signifies West. Kediriti or Kidara just means the Western king. And so that's why in Byzantine sources, for example, Eastern Roman sources, they're also referred to as the Kiddharites, the Westerners, in other words, these Kittorites settle in Sogdiya, and there is a certain king called Ularg, who is mentioned ruling in Sogdhurya, and he calls himself Ularg, the king of the Huns, and Kushan Shah. So he immediately assumes their title, and because the Huns assumed the role of Kushan kings,

even the Chinese became a bit confused. So the Chinese relation would provide two origin myths. about the kitterites and the haptelites, the whiteshans. And they would say that, oh, according to one version, they share the same ancestors as the Gauche, these Turks in, or Turkic-speaking peoples in modern Kazakhstan and in Mongolia. And of course, yes, that's the correct version. And the early Weishans definitely spoke a Turkic language.

But then they say, oh, they're also descended from the Kushans, or the Yueji, because in their diplomatic correspondences with the Chinese, the Weishans did exactly the same thing. They said, oh, we are Weishans, but we are also Kushansha's. And so that threw off, not just people in the West, but in the East, in other words, they adopted multiple identities simultaneously in order to facilitate conquests and to rule their territories more effectively. Obviously, I think what they were trying to do was appeal to the native Kushanized population of Afghanistan, who obviously would have felt hostile towards the Persians who had conquered them earlier. And so you can imagine this scenario of the

Whitehans coming in and claiming to be the restorers of the Kushan Empire and pretending as if there's some kind of liberation. So it was a clever political strategy. What started the Civil War? What ended the conflict in Vietnam? Who was Paul Revere? And did the Vikings ever reach America? I'm Don Wildman, and on American History Hit, my expert guests and I are journeying across the nation and through the years

to uncover the stories that have made America. We'll visit the battlefields and debate floors where the nation was formed. Meet the characters who have altered it with their touch. and count the votes that have changed the direction of our laws and leadership. Find American History Hit twice a week, every week, wherever you get your podcasts. American History Hit, a podcast from History Hit. And it's something you see time and time again throughout history like Alexander the Great entering Egypt and portraying himself as a liberator of Egypt from the Persians. So interesting

how the White Huns adopt something similar with the Kiddurites. So the Kiddurites have taken over Sogdhya and Batria, so Afghanistan, Uzbekistan area. They've done this consolidation. But do we know if you've still got the Sasanian Persians to their west, of course you've got the Hindu Kush to their southeast as well. What do the Kiddharites do next? Do they just try and strengthen their hold over these core regions, or do they do more expansion? Well, they immediately start to expand. So they first consolidate their conquests in Central Asia, and then by the Laisha 380s thereabouts,

certainly by the end of the 4th century, they have already conquered Gandhara, so what is now northern Pakistan, and they're launching raids into Gupta, India. They also, of course, invade the Sassanian Empire. Sorry, Junjin, Gupta, India, that's the Gupta dynasty, Gupta Empire. That was the big power at the time in India. Yes, exactly. That was the dynasty. That was the power that was ruling over India at the time. These invasions would become more pronounced in the 5th century. In the first half of the 5th century, Gupta inscriptions left by Skanda Gupta, who was a ruler of the Gupta empire in the middle of the 5th century. He tells us that, in his instance,

Skan de Gupta tells us that his empire had been virtually destroyed. He had just managed to repel these invaders. And so he claims victory in the end, but he does tell us that prior to this so-called victory, his state had been almost completely destroyed. And the reason why the Qaedaite pressure on the Gupta has eased was because the Qaeda rites themselves during that time was being eliminated by the second imperial dynasty that took over, which was the Heptalites. And so the Kitterites invade India, they also invade Persia.

And so the Sassadian kings were forced to pay tribute to the Kitterites. And that tribute payment continued until the middle of the 5th century, when new waves of invaders from the east to suddenly put a stop to all of this. So there is an iteration empire in Mongolia that starts to form in the last few decades of the 4th century, this is the so-called Ruron-Kaganis. Ruron is the modern Chinese pronunciation of the name. And the Chinese glyphs that were used to write this name means wriggling worms. Wow.

Obviously, this is an acronym. The Ruron would not have called themselves wriggling worms. This is a derogatory name that was given to them by the Chinese dynasts who hated them. but their original name might have approximated Agwar, and so there is some speculation which would identify them with the laser avars, the so-called pseudo-a-vars, people claiming to the avars later turn up in Europe as well in the middle of the 6th century. So if we were to assume that the Rurun were the avars, that helps us to understand what happens next. There is a group of var, presumably A-Vars, who are subject to the main A-Vars, who then

migrate West as part of a vanguard. So the A-Vars decide to expand West, and a group of them intrude into the Whitehonic realm. And so these group of intruders, these Vars, are led by a new upcoming dynasty called the Hepthals, or the Yopda, and we call them the heptolites. So they come over, they conquer, but of course they constitute a tiny minority. And so what happens is a mixing of the original white honey caliph and these newcomers.

And so our sources tell us that the two aristocratic rulers of the Huns in Central Asia are the Huns and the Vars. So some of them are even called VAR huns, indicating the fusing of those two people. So there is a dynastic shift that occurs, but the whitonic stage remains largely intact. The quitterites obviously don't go down without a fight. They try to hold on, but their Sasanian vassals use this opportunity to launch an attack against them from the west as well. So Yazdegerd, the second, the Sasanian king, forms an alliance with the Hephthalites in the middle of the 5th century, and the Kitterites are, initially they prevail against the

Persians, but they're defeated militarily by the Hephthalites. And so after the Kitterites are expelled from Bactria, the Hephthalates and the Sassanians carve up what is left of the Kitterite possessions in Central Asia. But then Hephthalite kings decide that they're going to take all of it, not just half of it. So as soon as the Kitterites are expelled to India, The Hephthalites decide to turn the tables on the Sassanians, and so they swallow up the rest of Kitterite, what was formerly Kitterite territory in Afghanistan. And the Sassanians, of course, are not happy. And this leads to a war between the Sassanians and the Heptilites.

I think just before we go into that, because there are some interesting names that we've covered there, and almost just a recap of what you've said there, Hingin, because it's a fascinating end to the Kiderites, this first dynasty of the White Huns. you know, within the space of a century they formed this new kingdom in Central Asia in Uzbekistan and Afghanistan gained some successes against the Sasanians and almost like subjugated them in the West

taken over Gandhara, northern Pakistan as well almost completely destroyed the Guptas and then all of a sudden like I guess one of the big problems of having a, you know, a kingdom in that part of the world is you get a new threat from the East coming in Persia revives and allies itself with this new threat,

And then the Gupta's, I guess, revive as well. So all of a sudden, the Kidderites have been looking so successful and expanding. And then ultimately, they fall because of the amount of external pressures on them. So it's really interesting how we do get to that main dynasty we think of, or which seems to be central to the story of the White Huns, the Hephalites. It actually comes after a fantastic rise and then a brutal fall of the preceding dynasty, the Kitterites. Yes, yes. And I think the heftalites were very opportunistic as well. And the Kitterites, it takes decades for the Kitterites to be phased out. So the Kitterites in India, they survive until the 470s. And it's only towards the end of the 5th century that the

haptilites managed to completely conquer them. And so Kitterite ambassadors visit the Chinese course in order to presumably form an alliance against the Hept, nothing comes of that effort and in the end they are swallowed up by the Hephthalites and there is another

interesting group called the Alcones these are the Redhans Alfa Scarlet or Red and Kahn of course Hun and so these are the southern hans

and so the Kitterites of course ruled over the region covered by the alhons in India but then it is highly likely that they were

removed and replaced and by rulers imposed by the Hephthalites. So our Chinese sources tell us that the later Alcon rulers, or the Hunic rulers in India, were vassals of the Weishans and had to obey the Weishans in every way. And so there is that dynastic shift that happens there as well. But that only occurs in the final decades of the 5th century. So yes, it was a spectacular fall,

but they struggled for nearly 50 years. Oh, maybe slightly less than that. It was a losing effort, but at least they didn't go out as spectacularly as the Hephthalites. I mean, the Hephthalates, of course, they survive for hundreds of years. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Don't get too far ahead there, Hingin. We don't want to reveal the end just yet.

But if we continue the story, right, the Kidorites are now out of the way. The Hephthalites have taken over, and I need to make sure I don't say Heptathlites. I keep thinking Hephthalm, but Hephthalites is how we say it. an uneasy alliance between the Hephaelites and the Sasanian Persians to get rid of the Kidderites. But as you were saying, that doesn't last for long. It's not long before they start looking westwards to Persia and the lands they control. Yes, yes, definitely. So the Hephthalites, they seize former Heptorite territory in Afghanistan, and this leads to war with the Sasanians.

And the Persian king Peros, so yesterday you got the second dice, Rose becomes the new king, and he launches a series of attacks against the Hephthalites in order to recover Bactria from them, and in all cases it ends in disaster. So the first two attempts end in him being captured and having to be ransomed and having to agree to pay tribute to the Hephthalites as the Sasanians did before to the Kitterites. But Sir Peros just refused to give up. So he made a third attempt to topple the Hephthalites in Bactria, and unfortunately, the Hephthalates had run out of her patients with him.

And so in that third battle, he was killed together with his entire army. And then Perosa's successor, Kavad, is literally placed on the throne of Sassanian-Persia by a Heftalite army that invades and takes over. And so from that point onwards, until the downfall of the Hephthalates, the Sassanian's have to pay tribute decades for literally more than half a century. And an enormous quantity of Sasanian coins are, as a result, present in Heftelai territory. These very elaborate Sasanian coins that are then overstamped with the heftalite Tamga to indicate that these were submitted as tribute to the Heftalai king.

And this creates a huge problem for the Shah-an Shah, the king, the king of the king of of kings of Iran, because the Sasanians justified their usurpation of rule over Iran from the preceding Arsacid dynasty by pointing out that, unlike the Arsacids, they were more effective in combating Iran's external enemies. And now we're in the situation where we're in a worse situation than the Parthians. At least the Parthians managed to push the Romans back. In this case, it was complete conquest and subjugation. And so the Sassanians start to develop this national myth.

They start to change some of the traditional tales associated with the foundation of Iran. And so the legendary house of the Cyanians, who supposedly were these mythical kings who founded Iran, their stories are altered to accommodate this mysterious group called Turan, the Turanians. who are, of course, the Huns. And according to the mythology that is created here, coexistence with them is necessary for the time being. But then ultimately, Iran is liberated by the Cyanian kings and the Turanians are expelled after a brief phase of terranian invasion and domination.

And so by sort of changing the story that were associated, the stories that were associated with the Cyanians, and telling the Iranian people that even the holy Cyanian kings of the past had been conquered by these raiders from the east. So the fact that we've lost to the Huns is not so shameful after all. And like the Cyanian kings, we will be liberated in the future. That kind of retic has to be specific creation in order to basically skirm around some very uncomfortable questions. It shows, doesn't it, how sometimes once again in the way,

we think of the Romans and the Sassanians being the two great enemies fighting each other. And yet for the Sassanians, it sounds like the White Huns were an even bigger problem on their doorstep. And also how the Sassanians, they did not escape. They did not evade the wrath of the Huns, as it were. But Hungen, you also mentioned in passing there how the white Huns, they stamped their Sassanian coins or something like that with a particular mark. What was this mark? Yes, this is the Tamgas. The Tamgas.

It's a of insignia that are used by inner Asian stage entities. So the quitterites, so these are like, I'm almost tempted to sort of compare them to European coat of arms that are used by aristocratic houses. And so every aristocratic and royal dynasty during this time in Inner Asia has their own Tamga. And so in all of their coins, the Hephthalites, the Alcones, the Qitterites, they imprint their Tamgas to indicate that this is coin issued by them, and that is how we can identify which coin is Kitterite, which coin is Hephthalates, etc. And these Sasanian coins, which are

obviously not minted or produced by the Hephthalites, have these Tangus stamped on them, indicating that they were meant for the Hephthalites' course as tribute. The Hephthalites, they subdue the Sasanian Persians, they've secured their western flank, But their military conquest don't stop there, if I'm correct. Where else do they look to expand? Yes. So I mentioned earlier that the Hephthalites were originally vassals of the Ruron Kaganesh or the Avar Kaganesh in Mongolia and Turkestan. The Wrigley Worms, yes. The worm people, according to the Chinese. These horrifyingly dirty people, at least according to the Chinese anyway. But the Ruron Kaganes started to weaken shortly after the Hathelite conquest.

of the Weishans. And so once the haptolites become the ruling elite and the ruling dynasts of the Weishanic Empire, they actually start to expand into former Ava territory. So they conquer the Tarram Basin and expand as far east as Wurmchi, which is of course the current capital of Chinese Xinjiang, the western province of Xinjiang and modern day China. And so that puts them in almost direct contact with the Northern Wei, these Mongolic peoples who are ruling over northern China, and so there is frequent embassies going to and fro between the Whitehontac court and the Northern Wei court. And the haptolites do not put all their eggs in one basket. So they communicate with these northern sort of dynasts in northern China with

the Shenbei, but they also communicate with these the southern native Chinese dynasts as well in order to play one off against the other. And so they expect, expand in that direction. They also expand south, obviously. So these Alcon or Redhannic kings in India who were vassals of the Hephthalites, they continue the Hanak expansion into India, which had been halted because of the fall of the Kitarites. So kings like Toramana and his son Mihira Kula, these are vassal kings ruling over the Redhans or the Alcons. They conquer much of northern India. So the Gupta capital is sacked by them. Indian sources tell us there are these sort of local sort of minor statelets in the Deccan region and also in northern India, which have left us with some inscriptions.

So there are inscriptions left by the Honey Kings who say, oh, we were victorious and we conquered everybody. And then there are these other Indian sort of inscriptions that say, well, we vanquished them and push them out and wipe them out and so and so forth. Who is correct? I think given what happens next, I think it's reasonable to assume that the Huns were not wiped out. They do remain in India for a long, long time. And in fact, certain segments of the hafdalites who have basically gone native and have adopted local Indian identities as the Gujarra Pratiharas, they end up ruling northern India until the 11th century when they are displaced by the Turkic Ghaznabids, these new Islamic invaders who then take over.

So they're around for a long time. They weren't wiped out. So they do this expansion eastwards as well. You mentioned like Arumchi and also into India. So that by the time we get to, I guess the mid-sixth century AD, is the White Hunnic Empire? Is it the superpower of the time? Is it the largest empire in the world at that moment? Oh yes, absolutely. It is the largest territorial station. Wow, because you don't know that? Yes, nobody knows that. You don't hear about that in the West, do you?

Yes, they are the largest empire in the world at the time. And this is an empire that stretches from Western China to the borders of the Eastern Roman Empire, from Kazakhstan to Central India. It is a massive place. And so this is probably the largest empire. Well, probably the old Shomun Empire in Central Asia was possibly as large or slightly larger, but certainly one of the largest empires to have ever existed until that time. That's absolutely amazing.

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formed, meet the characters who have altered it with their touch, and count the votes that have changed the direction of our laws and leadership. Find American History Hit twice a week, every week, wherever you get your podcasts. American History Hit, a podcast from HistoryHit. If we now explore how this empire functioned for a bit, I must start with the military component, given how much land they conquer. Do we have any idea how the White Hunnic army functioned? Should we be imagining just lots and lots and lots of horse arches, or more complex than that? Well, much more complex than that.

So the white ones were, well, according to Procopius and also Chinese sources, incredibly sophisticated and civilized in their eyes, in the sense that the military backbone of the Heptilite state obviously were the pastoralist populations that provided the state with much of its military manpower. But there were numerous urban centers, in fact, irrigation canals in Central Asia in places like Sogdeo and other infrastructure that is needed for the production of surplus foodstuffs. That potential is, they reach their maximum potential during the rule of the Hephthalites. So the Hephthalites were very, very effective in using local resources. Those resources, of course, were also used to augment their military power.

So the cavalry, which form the, as usual, forms the backbone of their armies. Yes, they did have mounted arches, but if you look at mural paintings and depictions of hephalite troops, these are not simple barbarians, you know, clad and fur. They have the most recent up-to-date military equipment. Their armor is incredibly sophisticated. Lammler armor, which could effectively deflect arrows. They are literally medieval knights covered from head to toe in armor, and their horses are armored as well.

So they had heavy cavalry, they had light cavalry, they had infantry as well, of course. And every military, sort of, everything that is conducive to maintaining a well-functioning military, you would see that in the Waitonic Army. So lamella there, is that kind of a heavy leather idea, is it? Or something more than that? No, no, no, it's iron plates. Oh, my apologies. These are small sort of iron plates that are then soon together.

So if you have just a plage armor, then what happens is that the honeyc bow is so powerful that the plate would be immediately penetrated and that would lead to instant death. So if the arrow strikes you from a distance of about 100 meters, then it is almost certain death. And so those plage armor were useless. But the lamar armor was designed in such a way that it would usually deflect. most of these arrows and make them bounce off. Even if they did penetrate, there were other layers beneath which would minimize the damage that is caused by them. So this was top-notch military technology of the time. So let's talk about subjugated people of the white hunts. How did the

white huns treat the people that they conquered? Because you mentioned the T-word earlier, tribute. Yes. So this was a tributary empire. The haptolites, they of course governed directly, They're core territories, so that is Sogdia, Bactria, Gandhara, etc. But when it came to areas that were further away, especially if they came into contact with a larger political entity, like, for example, the Sasanians, what they usually did was not just replace the local rulers and then take over, but so they would co-opt these local rulers and try to rule through them, which of course was much easier. They just, in other words, co-opt the existing administrative apparations and govern these states of fire. existing administrative structures. But in the case of the local population, how they ruled them, the key to understanding Weishanic governance is to understand that they were a very typical In Eurasian Empire, in the sense that they allowed, as far as we can tell, religious liberty, all kinds of religions were tolerated by the Weishans, the Weishan kings themselves, sometimes patronized Buddhism, sometimes patronized Hinduism, wherever they were, they patronized

the local practices of the populations that they ruled over. And they also, in many cases, integrated the local aristocracy into the governing structure. What they created can this be described as a feudal empire. I really, really hesitate to use the term feudal because it can lead to all kinds of misunderstandings. but for want of a better term, it is feudal in the sense that, yes, there is the Hephthalite emperor who is ruling at the top, and then they would be senior kings and high-ranking aristocrats who derive from the whitehannic conquering elite, the Vars and the Huns, but then at the lower levels, the local rulers, for example, in India, the Rajas and the Maharajas,

they remained local dynasts, and so they would be incorporated into the White Hanuk political structure, and their local practices, customs, religions would be respected and would be left to function as they always did. All they had to do, of course, was pay taxes and contribute troops to the imperial army when they were called upon to do so. But it's interesting there, because we have covered the empire of Attila and his forebears in the past in the West, and you've mentioned in that chat the importance of tribute, the fact that you had the senior king, but then you also had local rulers and that kind of hierarchy of overlords. So it sounds like there are clear similarities between, let's say, Attila's

Hunnic Empire and that of the White Huns in Central Asia. Yes, the political structure of both empires are remarkably similar, and presumably because both entities derive from the old Hunic Empire of Inner Asia. And so the system through which the white ones govern their empire is almost identical to that of Attila's Hanuk Empire in Europe, although they use different titles, and of course local practices were also catered for in the White Hanuk administration. So there are officials with different sounding names,

but the overarching framework is the same, or very similar. You mentioned that embracing of local cultures, and being in that area of the world, of course you've got all those different religions that they're interacting with, Zoroastrianism in Persia. But of course, from India, you've got Buddhism and Hinduism. So do we know how the Hephalite leaders, the Hephalite, well, the White Hunnic Kingdom,

how they tolerated these different religions, how much patronage, how much they sponsored these religions in certain areas of their empire? Yes, so in India, for example, particular Alcon kings would patronize Shivaism, for example. They would build temples, not just Shivaism, every branch of. Hinduists was patronized, they would build temples all over the place. And when in Rome, do as the Romans do seems to be the Hanuk Moshe. So wherever they conquer, they are kings by profession. So once they become kings of a local area, what they would do is basically go native

and worship the gods that rule there. And so that is the overarching sort of punic approach. So in India, they tend to be more Hindu, but then, In Bactria and Sobdia, there is, of course, patronage of Jorastrianism as well. But that is more identified with the Persians. And so in Afghanistan and Sobdia, Bactria-led area, the haptolites patronized Buddhism. And so there were many Buddhist monasteries, of course, which were built during Wysonic rule. And we mentioned this earlier, but some of the largest Buddhist statues ever built in history were built under the patronage of Waitonic King.

The famous Bamian Buddhas being one of them. Of course, unfortunately, those Buddhas, which were the UNESCO heritage relics, they were blown up by the Taliban in Afghanistan, and so they're no longer with us. But, yes, they originally were a spectacular sight to behold. I wish I could ask you so many questions on this Hyunjin, but I presume that we've looked at the militaristic side, the patronage of certain religions. I can imagine that it's also quite a wealthy empire as well, with the Buddhist monks also having links to trade and merchants and that all these goods were flowing back and forth from the White Hunnic Empire. This isn't like the nomadic people living in Yurt's idea that sometimes you get of the Shong Nu or the Huns early on.

This is a very sophisticated, rich empire in Central Asia, you know, with lots of wealth coming in and presumably wonderful art too. Oh, yes. And we've been very lucky to discover some of the most beautiful mural paintings that were produced by the haptolites. Their ornamental art is also stylish in the sort of the urbane sense. And so, yes, and that is part of the reason why the Chinese would talk about them in these terms, that they were civilized, the most civilized people of the West, according to the Chinese. So from the Chinese perspective, these haptolites looked very much like themselves in the way that they sort of went about governing their empire, the ways in which they, you know, built urban settlements and practiced culture and practiced Buddhism, et cetera, that all looked very sophisticated and civilized to the Chinese. So the Chinese tell us that both the haptolite hans, who are the white hans who rule over Central Asia and India, they're civilized. They also think the Yuehban, you know, the weak hans who were left behind in eastern Kazakhstan are also highly civilized as well.

So we tend to think that the Huns were these nomadic peoples who only practiced pastoralism and who did not have any urban centers, who did not have material culture to speak of. But that is a complete misconception. The Hans, when they were still in Central Asia, were a very sophisticated people, both culturally and militarily. And I think the evidence that comes out of Central Asia

is proving more by the day that what we're dealing with is a very powerful military state that is expanding its reach rather than a motley group of savage barbarians roaming aimlessly and then crashing somehow crashing into the Roman Empire. So Hyunjin, we've done a wonderful chat covering so much of the Heflinide story. I must ask to finish it. what ultimately happens to the White Harnik Empire? Yes, it all happens suddenly. The Ruran Kaganet, which had been in decline,

was finally overthrown by the Gurg Turks, the Turks. So they finally emerge in the annals of history at this time. Bumin Khagan of the Turks and Ishtami Yapku, his brother, they start conquering an enormous empire, even larger than the Hanik empires that preceded it. So in the middle of the 6th century, the Gurg Turks invade the Witanic Empire after they had overthrown the Huron or the Avars, and a massive battle takes place in Bukhara, close to Buhara in what was then Saqdya, modern-day Uzbekistan. That battle lasted eight days, so it was a colossal conflict.

And Afgharnish, the last Hephalite emperor, found himself at the the losing act of that encounter, unfortunately, and so his army was destroyed. And the same thing that happened when the Kitterites collapsed happened yet again. So the Hephthalites under King Cosrow, the first, they allied with the Turks and invaded at the most opportune time. Oh, you mean, not the Heffelah. So Cozra, that's the Sassanian king. You said Heffelag there, right, yes.

So the Sassanians and the Gok Turks ally against the Heffelah. Yes, yes. Exactly, exactly. And so, well, they agree to carve up the Hephthalides Empire, and the Turks successfully capture Central Asia from the Hephthalites, but the Sassanians were less successful in conquering Afghanistan. So Hephthalite principalities continue to hold on in Afghanistan long after the fall of the main Hephthalides Empire, and of course the Hephthalites in India last a lot longer than that.

The Turks, of course, after they conquer Central Asia, again have a change of heart, like the Hephthalites did when they overthrew the Kitterites, and they start invading the Persians. And the same thing happens all over again. Well, Persia. But there again, first of the Kiddurites, then the Heffalites, and then finally with the Gok Turks. I mean, so that's the end of the White Hunic Empire. Yes. But you mentioned this near the start, that the legacy of the White Huns, it endures for centuries after this point,

just not as strong as it had been before. Yes, so the haptolites, they hang on in Afghanistan and in northern India, and they, after the Persian Empire is conquered by the Arabs and Islamization of the Near East and Central Asia occurs shortly thereafter, what happens is that the white hans who hang on in Afghanistan and northern India form a bulwark that prevents the expansion of Islam into the Indian subcontinent for almost four centuries. That is probably one of the reasons why India is still largely Hindu today, because the the Whitehans stopped the early wave of Islamic conquest from penetrating all the way into Central India. So in that sense, they contributed a lot to the preservation of India's native culture. And in global history, I think that that was their most important contribution, that they did play their part in the preservation of Indian culture and civilization.

And in Afghanistan, what's interesting is that the Hephthalites later play a major role in the ethnogenesis of the so-called Kalaj people. The Kalaj people later morph into many of the major Pashtun clans or tribes, like the Gilgai Pashtuns and the Abdali Pashtuns. The Abdelis, their name literally means Hephthalite. So these are Hephthalite Pashtuns. And so the Afghan people are infused with a new warrior tradition that makes them virtually unconquerable.

Prior to the Hephthalite of white-hearted conquest, Afghanistan was not known for its martial peoples. They were being overrun time and again by invaders from the north or the northeast. But after the Hephthalate conquest, the mountains of Afghanistan become the graveyard of empires. So in the 19th century, these Gilgai Pashtuns, they of course defeat the British invasion of Afghanistan. In the 20th century, they stop the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and in the 21st century, they fought off the Americans. So, yes, the Weishans also played a significant role in the ethnogenesis of the Afghan people. Well, Hingin, I think that's a lovely way to end this

chat. Last but certainly not least, you have written a book on the whole story. of the Huns, which includes the tale of the white Huns, it is called. It is called The Huns, Rome and the Birth of Europe. That was published in 2013 by Cambridge University Press. There was another book called Just The Huns, which also deals with most of the same topics. Jin, it just goes to me to say, thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast today. It's a pleasure. Well, there you go.

There was Professor Hyunjin Kim returning to the show. to give you an overview, an introduction to the fascinating story of the White Huns in Central Asia. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Please follow The Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. If you also be kind enough to leave us a rating, well, we'd really appreciate that. Don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts add free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.

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