The Ariel Helwani Show - Ali Revival Act Senate heating fallout, Alex Pereira's GOAT potential, more | The Craic

Episode Date: April 24, 2026

The Craic is back! This time, Petesy Carroll, Chuck Mindenhall, and Ben Fowlkes are joined by special guest John S. Nash. First up, Nash sheds light on the latest regarding the Ali Revival Act after the Senate hearing debating its merits (1:10). Then, the lads turn to RAF’s recent momentum, following the news of Khamzat Chimaev’s signing (40:27). With the White House card looming, does Alex Pereira becoming the promotion’s first three-division champion put him in the GOAT conversation (50:02)? UFC returns to the Apex this weekend. Petesy and the boys preview Aljamain Sterling vs. Youssef Zalal (1:19:00) and close the show with some classic Craic banter.

The crack is back, ladies and gentlemen, and my God, we nearly thought we weren't going to make it here today with technical updates to laptops and what have you. But we're here. Shout out, Andy. She got it all done. We have a working computer. I'm from a different angle slightly today because I'm using a different computer. And you can see I've got a glow to me today. That's because I got sunburned while I was walking my dog.

That is not important, though, because this is a combat sports show. And if you didn't know, there was a big Senate here. hearing on Wednesday. We had Nico Ali Walsh. We had Oscar Delahoea. We had Nick Khan. Ted Cruz. Everybody weighing in on the Ali Reform Act. Now, you know that I have two of the greatest journalists in the history of combat sports on this show. But when I suggested adding someone about a bit more expertise to this conversation, well, the boys bit my hand off because it is a man that has been on this show before. You might know him from those episodes.

You might know him from the Hay Not the Face substack, which is absolutely amazing. He is an authority on all things. Combat Sports litigation, and he'll be joining us all today. Let's bring in the four pack. It is Chuck Maddenhall, Ben, folks, and John S. Nash.

John S. Nash. My God, welcome, sir. We are very, very happy to have you here. Sorry for the reclining pose. I got, let me, if you can see, I don't even know if you can see. I got my cat on my lap, right? So my hands are doing this.

It's, this is really unfortunate that my camera, I can't tilt even lower because right now, this is just not going to look good the whole show of me doing that. So, but just let you know, I just want the audience to know that is, that is my cat. My cat is actually right there. Look at this amazing setup, John. He looks so relaxed. I know. He's got to like the, the mic that comes in, like he's Howard Stern or something.

There's a man holding that mic. They're like holding it over. Yeah, there is. I got the boom mic. I got the boom mic operator. I got, uh, heading a cat on his lap like he's a bond villain. I was thinking more of Don Corleone,

but it's a little pathetic over here to be Don. There's, you know, but still, I'm just, I just saw your audience on the video would like to know that I am not stroking myself. There is a cat, right? You're on the right show for it. Yeah. If you get the information. It's allowed if you need to, you know, whatever you need to do.

Really. First time. I'm hearing of this. Yeah. John, uh, we are so happy to have you here because, uh, we need to, get onto this Senate hearing. A lot of people have come away from this, and the discussion I'm seeing and the discourse

kind of vibes with a lot what you've been saying before, where this is almost a foregone conclusion at this point. I mean, a lot of people feel like this is just a matter of time. Tell me what your key takeaways were from Wednesday's hearing. Well, I think some people think it's more of a foregone conclusion than me. I've always said the odds are it's very likely that this gets passed and signed into legislation. that the bills pass, both chambers goes to Donald Trump's desk.

I think that's very likely. But I don't think it's 100% guaranteed, like some people seem to say, only because if you'll pay attention to the news, there's a lot of shit that's going on. And like this bill itself is really late. They had plans for it to be signed and in place by the beginning of this year when they rolled out ZUFA boxing. But because the shutdown last fall, you know,

the original hearing was delayed like five, six weeks. And so they ran in a lot of problems. That, you know, you got a war on Iran. You got the Epstein file still floating out there. You got members of the House dropping out repeatedly. It's possible still that something could happen. But based on the performance, based on how it went yesterday, you have to say that for Zufa, they have to be feeling very confident that this will eventually, I shouldn't say eventually very rapidly get to a vote in the Senate and likely pass.

Because as people in Congress have told me, I've spoken to disclosure, I've spoken to members of the committees, their staff. The one thing they've noted is there is not as large of organized resistance as there are typically for bills. Usually you have any sort of labor bill, the unions show up and their connections show up or an association or someone shows up to counter it. And here, because it's boxing, it's very disorganized, very hodgepodge. and the people that are trying to resist it, you know, God bless them, are a very small group of people. Yeah, it's interesting to say that.

And I watched Chuck's colleague, Luke Thomas, speak about this from Morning Combat today where he was discussing senators, Cruz and Rosen, and, you know, them kind of having been, they've been endorsed by TKO holdings over the years, which might make it feel a bit incestuous. But to speak about the lack of organization with in boxing, they did have some notable detractors of this reform act, one of which was

Muhammad Ali's grandson. And just to give people a flavor of what he said, I believe we have a synopsis of comments he made in his opening five minutes here. Fighters are labeled independent contractors. As a result, people say fighters will have options that we can just go elsewhere. But when the same company controls who you fight, how you're promoted and whether fans ever see you, it's not much of a choice. When one system controls access, choice becomes theoretical, not real. The Ali Act was built on a simple principle. The people controlling fighters should not also control the entire marketplace those fighters depend on. That separation exists to prevent conflicts of interest and exploitation.

The new Muhammad Ali Boxing Revival Act would undermine that principle. By allowing one entity to operate across promotion, management, and matchmaking, it removes independence. When that happens, you fight who you're told to fight or you don't fight at all. At that point, real choice disappears and so does negotiation. This type of centralized system is already seen in mixed martial arts, particularly in the UFC, where a single organization controls promotion, matchmaking, and fighter contracts. In that model, fighters typically receive under 20% of the revenue compared to boxing where fighters can earn up to 80%. The newly proposed Revival Act pushes that centralized model onto boxing, behind the claim that boxing is broken.

Boxing is not broken. If it were, UFC champions at the height of their careers would not be active, targeting boxing fights because of the fair pay. That movement is rarely seen in reverse due to the UFC's centralized pay structure. Boxing has never been perfect, but one of its strengths has always been competition. Multiple promoters competing for fighters creates leverage and fair market value. When that competition is consolidated to one system, leverage disappears. Protection should be strengthened, especially around health and safety, but not used as justification to restructure the sport in a way that removes power from fighters. If this bill is passed

in its current form, it should not have my grandfather's name on it, as it would betray the principles that his act was created to protect. He fought for dignity outside the ring. This is about dignity inside it. Fighters should not have to choose between their careers and their rights. Welsh who I taught really conducted himself really, really well at the hearing yesterday. And I've heard a lot of complaints about Oscar Delahoea. I was listening to Insider Boxing earlier, speaking about his involvement yesterday. And maybe we can speak about that later. But I guess, John, the question for me is, you've kind of mentioned this lack of unity among the boxing people, like creating just a wall against this reform act.

And as we know, there are people within the boxing world that have endorsed a job. two, is this more of a conversation, do you believe, for the MMA community rather than the boxing community right now? Well, I mean, the conversation that there's a lack of unity, that that part, because No, sorry, the conversation about the Reform Act and the boxing kind of taking into this UFC model, so to speak. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is.

No, I mean, the thing is that it is very related. People try to always make this argument that boxing and Mbamere is completely separate sports, completely different. But their markets are very similar. Their structures are technically very similar. It's two guys fighting in a ring or a cage presented for an audience where you sell tickets, you broadcast it, you have sponsorship, and they're fighting eventually to win a championship. The difference is is what we permit in one sport and what we don't permit in the other. So for MMA, because we permit them to operate like pro wrestling, they're allowed to have their own titles. They're allowed to thus say that just fight for this.

title you have to be signed to our promotional entity exclusively where that doesn't work in boxing because the titles are separate from the promoters. And so fighters are who are, you know, that they're competing to get these titles. Promoters in turn are competing for the fighters, where the reverse, as Carlos Newton will say, happens in MMA, where the fighters are competing to get the promoter that will give them access to the title. And so it's a completely different structure. So it's just the flip side of the same coin of where the problems are. Now, I thought Ollie Walsh did an amazing job there because he kind of laid it out perfectly in his opening statement. And he was the highlight for those that are opposing the bill.

And it was disappointing that members of Senate, maybe he didn't pick up on what he said and ask questions. But I guess that goes hand in hand with only being a select few members of the Senate there. And, you know, I don't think Ted Cruz, as much as he came across his fair and balance, he did, you know, it looked like he had a, he threw a soft ball right over the middle of the plate. for Nick Con at one point. So obviously there's situation where he's, yeah, the middleweight's like, yeah, you know, it's amazing that Nick Con knew all the middleways because no one does, even fans of boxing.

And he had people spotted it, had a list on his table right there when he did it. So, and then you have Jackie Rosen who's from Nevada, who, you know, all things said, if you're in Nevada, TKO is a massive enterprise there. You were not going to go against him. But I thought his explanation was great. And it kind of boils down with the problem. is. And, you know, and it's pretty simple. The Allie Act was put in place for multiple reasons, but namely to protect Boxers financial interest. And the way they did that is we want to create

competition. Well, competition is the number one way to raise athletes pay. I've had James Quinn. People are not familiar with James Quinn. I have the, I've had the attorney James Quinn on my show to discuss this. James Quinn is the attorney that represented all the major sticking ball sports when they negotiated their collective bargaining agreements. He's the guy that worked with him when they came up with you. He was there in the NBA when Oscar Robinson filed an antitrust suit against the NBA. He was there when they came up the idea for the, for the NBA to possibly decertify and sue the league to get concessions instead of strike.

He was there when the NFL took this strategy. So he is very familiar with the subject. And he will tell you, the number one thing that drives athletes' wages is not. a union, a union is there to protect the right to get to protect the right of a free agency. So there's more competition and then and then negotiate away that right to free agency for concessions. But the number one way pay goes up is competition. And if you have the structure that you have an MMA, it's specifically designed to prevent

competition because you own the title. You do not have to compete with other promoters for that champion. On top of that, you engage in a practice called course of contracts, which the Ali Act specifically prohibited where you say the only way you can compete for to fight this fighter or compete for this title is you sign a long-term exclusive contract with me. Well, that's illegal under the Alley Act. You cannot force people to sign long-term exclusive contracts just for the right to meet one boxer, specifically someone for a title.

In fact, they have something called mandatories in boxing where if you become the number one challenger, you get the right to compete for that title, win that title without giving away any contractual obligations in the future. And if you win that title, you get to walk away with the belt. So in some ways, that's why you see the situation in boxing where there's constant co-promotion, where there's constant movement of a big-name fighters moving from promotion to promotion like Canelo Alvarez, like Devin Haney, like Shakira Stevens, all these guys moving around with their titles in place.

They do not strip, first of they do not have to go through a long process of years and years and multiple fights to finally get out of their contract, although that happens to. There's long-term contract. There's all those problems. But usually when you get to the very top of the sport, usually a lot of those guys, if you know it was Bud Crawford and Kennell, they're signing short contracts,

and they have the right to leave with the titles and rankings as they do so, so other promoters can compete for those. John, one of the things that I remember hearing a lot early on in this process was people being kind of surprised, like, hey, where are the boxing promoters pushing back on this attempted, you know, TKO sort of takeover on boxing, especially when you have Dana White out there, more or less saying, we plan to take over.

We plan to like, you know, we're beating up babies. We plan to take over this sport. And with this sort of legislative push, I saw a lot of people going, what is it with these guys? Have they not woken up to the reality of what this would mean for them? Did they not realize how close it is to actually becoming a reality? Why do you think it is that we haven't seen more boxing? Do you think that they're starting to wake up to it now?

Or do you think that they just, they have seemed kind of absent. from this discussion, at least in any substantial way. Well, I think there's a couple of things at play here. One is, well, we have noticed lately, I mean, the last few months, Oscar de La Jolla, who was there at the Senate was, has been talking about it. Eddie Hearn has. You had Bob Arum and Top Rink have brought it up. The kind of surprisingly quiet people are the people at PBC.

They've been quiet about this and they're a major player. They haven't said anything. And so there has been some talk about in boxing, but the other problem is, is I think part of it too is they are still very strongly connected to a chic turkey uh turkey uh turkey ale sheik uh and so they do not want to upset him right they want to still collect those paychecks uh payments whatever that he's been doing with his reaids season and but as this moves along i think they're starting to realize that maybe the saudi money's drying up and also maybe this is not in their best interest uh the other issue is i'm i'm sure a lot of them underestimate tkio i think

think if you listen to the comments like a lot of promoters, they have this view that Dana White runs Zufa boxing, and it's just like it's another promotion that's trying to get into space. And for a long time, they didn't quite understand. No, it's more than just another promotion because, yes, it's Zufa Boxing with Dana White, and they put on shows like everybody else. But this is a piece of an entity called TKO that has a monopoly that runs MMA and the UFC, a $20 billion enterprise, the WWE, which is pretty close.

could make a strong argument that has monopoly of market overwhelming market share of pro wrestling at a $20 billion valuation, staff by elite executives that are connected to Endeavor that has its hands in multiple entertainment industry businesses, including podcasts and communications and stuff, so get the message out and then now tied in with the Saudis, which so any money they want to give is probably going to go to the Zupa boxing. So this is an entity that is much bigger, much stronger than any traditional boxing entity. And on top of that, they have strong relations to the White House. And it's the fact that this bill has been moving so rapidly, just so insanely rapidly through Congress, I think, is finally woken people up.

This is different than what we've seen before. And maybe some of the concerns that people have voiced from MMA that are more actually familiar with this idea of how you take over combat sports markets. Maybe they're correct and we should be concerned about what the future holds if ZUFA boxing gets what they want. Hey John, you know, Oscar de Aloha, like I know a lot of people are talking about him, but does he, like, you watch something like this, he's got the platform, he has the chance to kind of counter and to point out the things that we're talking about. Does it, did he do more harm than good in this situation? I felt like he was up there and rather, you know, just by basically saying that boxing's in a good place and that it's functional and that it's healthy or whatever. Like that seemed to me the wrong approach here. That was a terrible approach.

The introduction to the bill by Ted Cruz is we all admit that boxing has troubles and we're here to talk about how to fix it. He said, you know, paraphrasing. And then Oscar, boxing is perfect. There's no problems. Well, we've been laying out everybody who's a fan, everybody that falls boxing knows. And that's been the history of boxing since it's founding, you know, since, I mean, not even founding since it became popular. You can go back and read like 1880s, 1890s newspapers articles, boxing's dying. Boxing's not going to last for a generation.

So it's been perpetual dying. And it's had tons of problems throughout its entire history. But then here's Oscar saying everything's perfect. It just, it was a terrible performance by him. I think one problem might have been the fact that they've created this alliance to defend the Ali Act, which is, it's great in some ways. Like finally a group of people in boxing are getting together to defend the Ali Act.

I thought one of their smartest things they did is they put Nico Ali Walsh in the forefront because now only can he speak well on the subject, which we proved, he has the Ali name so we can counter Lonnie Walsh, Lonnie Ali, I mean, that they rolled out at the house hearing. So that was, that was very clever of them. But then they, they picked Oscar. And I think the problem is twofold. One is they in this alliance are the sanctioning organizations. Well, they're the problem. And, you know, you can say that this, and this is my argument, this Ali Act, this, their proposed my TKO is a terribly designed bill, designed. Designed, specifically to benefit them at the expense of everybody else.

But that doesn't say it mean that boxing doesn't need some improvements, that the regulations don't need revisiting and that the sanctioning organizations have failed in their duty. And Oscar seemed unwilling to say that. And he also seemed unwilling to basically say anything because he wants the status quo preserve because he's a promoter. And that's the sad part of these hearings is if you go back to the 90s hearings, they didn't have just as a small group of people. They brought in a huge number of stakeholders to testify as well as not even in Congress. They did written reports.

So they were bringing in matchmakers. They were bringing in trainers. They were bringing in boxers. They were bringing in members of the media to discuss it to give just a wide breadth of options and opinions. And here it's a very narrow focus on those for it and those against it. And that's, I mean, it's obviously it's designed not to produce the best bill possible. Well, we're speaking about Oscar Delahoya and Chuck. and John have spoke about some of the criticism you got here.

Here is his opening gambit. And again, we've cut it down just so you get the best bits. This principle change of the proposed amendment allows a promoter to create an entity that serves as both promoter and governing body, a so-called unified boxing organization. This mirrors the existing MMA model and creates a closed system controlling rankings, titles, and access to opportunity. Under this structure, as long as the UBO complies with its own internal rules, it would not violate the Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform Act. Meanwhile, traditional promoters like myself would still be required to comply with full financial disclosures.

In other words, one system operates under transparency and accountability while the UBOs do not. This is a fundamental shift in power that if change would put corporate profits first, fighters second. We should be clear about who benefits from this. These changes align directly with what Zufa boxing and its leadership at TKO Group Holdings have already said they intend to build in boxing, a model similar to the UFC. And we all know what that model looks like and it does not work for the fighters. The UFC and its parent company agreed to $75 million anti-trust settlement after fighters accused them of suppressing wages and restricting competition. At the same time, Zufa boxing is fully funded by the Saudis. We've already seen how that kind of funding reshaped another sport through live golf.

We should be honest about what is happening here. That was sports washing, a clear effort to use sports to reshape reputation. In current ZUFA contracts, fighters are lucked into rigid earning structures with little to no ability to negotiate. The promoter controls all major revenue streams, including media rights, ticket sales, and sponsorships. fighters are limited to guaranteed purses and discretionary bonuses with only narrow participation and upside revenue as an independent contractor fighters

won't have leverage when one system controls all opportunities under current law fighters already have the right to see the financials behind every event they headline given them a fair opportunity to negotiate their compensation I also want to address safety the proposed changes suggest improved protections but boxing already has strong safeguards in place and existing protections, including health insurance for injuries and life insurance for fighters' families. Commissions and promoters ensure fighters are medically cleared and covered and cover related costs. If this proposal is truly about protecting fighters, why are

MMA athletes not included at all? And there was Oscar Elahoya, and of course we did speak about his kind of stance where nothing's wrong with boxing, which hasn't really gone well but most people I've heard speaking about this afterwards. His opponent, I guess, John, was Nick Cann. And he is so good at speaking to these people. I feel like I was listening to this. And I was disagreeing with nearly everything he said. But I was like, it just feels like it's playing so well.

He's so smooth. Like he, at one point, at several points, he was bringing up amateur boxing and the Olympics. And I was like, what the fuck has this got to do with this act? Like, amateur boxing, I don't know how they're making the argument. that somehow this UBO being founded will somehow help boxing in 2028 at the Olympics and we can have another Oscar Delahoeia.

He mentioned at one point, like, nobody in the world, like he had the middleweight thing where he said, who is the middleweight champion, and Nick Khan had all the answers there. Ted Cruz asked him, Nick Khan had the answer. He also said another point, like, nobody knows who the heavyweight champion of boxing is. Who's sick?

Nobody knows who this guy is? I feel like he is speaking to the people that matter, you know, in terms of, this Congress, these people in the Senate, they can't think of these things off the top of their head, but how valuable of an asset is Khan in all of this, given his legal background? I mean, he's tremendously valuable.

In fact, if you know it is for the two hearings they've done in the House and the Senate, who didn't make an appearance, who was not there to argue on behalf of Zipovoxing, even though he's supposedly the front person of Zippo Boxing. They had Lawrence Epstein did a tremendous job, incredibly skilled at this at the first House hearing, and then they have Nick Kahn for the first. the Senate hearing.

So they're keeping, Dana White's job is not to speak about this. When they do interviews, too, do you know when it comes to time for an important boy, who was out doing all the interviews about Zippo Boxing at the time? It was Epstein and Nick Kahn. So they're very, very important assets to have for this. They're very well spoken on it.

You look at the comments, Oscar said, first of all, I'll go up for Oscars opening statement, which actually was pretty good for the most part. he did an excellent job of comparing it, like, what they're trying to do to the UFC and then laying out the problems with the UFC, the complaints that maybe the Senate wasn't aware of. And then he closed the strong statement, like, if these protections of this bill so great, why doesn't include MMA fighters? But then he had to insert a little thing in the middle, which I don't have any idea why he inserted this. I don't know who told him to put this in there about how current medical protections are great for boxers. because yes, you know, you could say we have gone along, we've come a long way from where we used to be.

Look what the 1996 Health and Safety acted for the boxing. It improved it tremendously. We've gone, we were doing a much better job than we ever did in the past, but we're talking about the health and safety of fighters. We can always do more. Let's investigate and see what is more we can do. What can we accomplish more that is possible without putting out of business, tons of club shows, which potentially this bill could have done if they would have left a previous provision in.

So that would have been an argument, but his argument like, oh, health and safety is perfect. Well, I think that's, I mean, that just, you know, it just seems tone death on the subject. Even if you were going to do a hearing about MMA, I wouldn't recommend Zufo boxing or, I mean, the UFC, if they're going to do an MMA hearing in the Senate to say, oh, the health and safety standards are perfect in MMA.

We could never improve them. You know, you wouldn't, that would be pointless by them. They could brag about how good a job they've done than everybody else, but you think they would be smart enough to say, we can always do better, help us come up with even a better system for everybody. And I don't know why Oscar couldn't do that. He just has to defend the status quo, which is just an absurd thing for him to do. Now to Nick Kahn in his statements, it's, it was impressive what he said, but there is, you

know, and this I give him credit is no one's going to question them, no one's going to fact, do any, uh, fact finding on it and see, oh, is he telling the truth or not. We do not have a pants on fire meter going with him. Uh, because he brought up that there was only one champion when, uh, Marvin Hagler was champion. And that's true. Marvin Hagler was the man. But it still was a three belt era. He had, he was the one guy because he had unified the belts. Uh, I mean, it's a little, it was also a little different at the time because the IBF had just appeared. But still, the fact is he's complaining there's too many titles. And, Yet, your example, Marvin Hagler held three titles, not, and that's excluding the Ring Magazine title yield.

And you're talking about we're trying to bring some sort of unity to the sport. That's the other argument. At the same time, we're offering options, just options. Fighters can choose either system. Well, if the problem is there's too many titles and you're offering options for fighters and you're going to, you're introduced another title, aren't you just making more titles? Unless the goal is that there aren't options, and this is the only title. that matters. And so it's, no one's going to question that, though.

And so they're just going to, every seems to let those things pass. And so, but he is well versed in the subject. I think that's the big problem is Nick Conn and TKO knew they're going to introduce this bill. They knew they're going to have to appear in front of the Senate. I know, you know, we can, I don't know for fact, I'm not in Zupa's room, but I know pretty close to fact that he has probably had hours upon hours of meetings to discuss this. he has probably read hours and hours of reports and deck slides and presentations of what they're going to do.

They have probably done focus groups. In fact, I'm pretty sure they've done focus groups to go over the messaging. What's the strongest message they can do? And he has that on the side. On the other side is Oscar de La Hoya had a good written statement. But the subject is not something he has been debating, discussing for a long time. This is something that only in the last few weeks or days he's made the decision that he's going to go and fight.

And so when they ask him specifically. questions. It doesn't, it's not ingrained into his system to come out with the right answer. He is, you know, searching for answers and falls back in the defense and everything's fine, leave it alone. Hey, uh, or his clapback Thursday defenses. John, what, what's your sense on when the, I guess the appropriate time for WrestleMania to visit Cleveland. Would you prefer it in 2009 or 30? Can you believe that Ohio got rid of Sherrod Brown for what they got now, they let the cryptocurrency guys fucking spend an outrageous amount of money to get him out of office so we could have guys that blatantly ask for you know open bribe he kept going back to it too

like at first you're like that's funny and then he goes back to it like three times i would i think it would be amusing if oscar did say mr marano are you saying that your vote is dependent on if they bring him to ursumania to ohio is that what you're saying now that's a matter of fact i am because that would at least maybe got some attention in the news about that. And that's one thing that's kind of interesting, maybe sad, is that this story, and combat sports as a whole, has not been picked up by the greater news media world at all, because, you know, it has all these elements you would think that would draw interest

from mostly the, like, the left to center, but, you know, not all of them are left to center, but the labor news media groups, the antitrust groups, all these subject corporate cronyism, all these things are kind of tied into this subject right now as we're seeing it. And there's no one to seem to pick up on that outside of the combat sports bubble. And so we're getting no attention from, you know, the pundits that seem to follow this. And on top of that, even on the Democrat side, on the Republican side, I guess we're a long ways from John McCain, who was an actual fan that actually tried to do something. Because if there were any more John McCain's, you think they would dust off the bills McCain introduced to fix the problem. that never got voted on and were partly blocked by lobbying by Zufa,

that we're supposed to address these issues of the Al-IAC not being as effective as it was. But on the Democrat side, who've argued for a while, we've got to become this more populous, pro-labor, anti-corporate, anti-monopoly party is that you think it'd be ingrained in their nature just to suddenly start raising questions, and yet they did not. They seem to give a pass to a company that has the brother of Ram Omanual, money it.

John, my, sorry, go ahead. My question is, I guess I've been one of those people who's been a little fatalistic about any attempt to oppose this just because it seems like, especially right now in American government, when the big companies with a whole lot of money who also happen to be close personal friends with the president want something, they get it. And so you mentioned early in, in this show that you thought there were more, it wasn't just necessarily a given that this would go. through that there's a lot going on.

You know, that's obviously true. What do you think could reasonably stop it? What would that actually look like? Do you think it's just that distraction of what else is happening in American governments would be the thing that just stops us from bringing it to a vote and getting it to Trump's desk? Like, what would make this not just sail right through? Well, I think that'd be the major thing with something big pops up that just derails

all votes in the House, in the Congress, that they have. Bigger priority. I mean, they already have bigger priorities than this, obviously. But something so big that they, you know, they have to, all their attention goes to that. And this just is thrown to the curb. That's number one. That's possible. I mean, it's, it's kind of unlikely, but it's possible, especially in this climate that might happen. I think the, the biggest hurdles are going to face is one thing is interesting is, is Ted Cruz said that he's going to introduce a new version of the bill, which surprised me because I thought for sure he would introduce an identical.

version as the one that came out of the house. And the reason I thought he didn't interdental one, because if it passed with no changes, then the bill could go straight to the desk of Donald Trump to sign. Now, because it's going to be slightly different, if it passes the Senate, they have to reconcile the two bills. So they have to go back to the chambers to find out what they're going to do to get, you know, about the differences they have in the bill. And that would give an opportunity because remember Democrats said they were not satisfied

with the bill. They're hoping to get another stab at it. well, that would give them a chance to get another stam at it, create more problems. And the longer the process takes, the more likely something pops up that derails it, the more likely, you know, I mean, there's a possible, if something comes in derail along and up, what happens if we get to the end of the, of this session of Congress and it doesn't get passed because something got in the way and has to be reintroduced? Well, you think it'd immediately get voted on, but then what happens that the Democrats run both houses, right?

both chambers, I should say, the House and the Senate. Well, then the bill might die because it's not a priority for the Democrats. It's a priority for the Republicans because someone from the White House called them and said, this is a priority. Let's push this bill through. So I think that's the best chance is that the process gets scraged out, which can happen. And it gets dragged out long enough that something else interced, interjects into the process to extend it even further to the point where it's after the elections.

And now it's too late because the, you know, if we go into next year, the new Senate and, and House of Representatives takes their seats and they might be Democratic control and they're not going to be interested in pushing this bill through. Well, John. But that's unlikely.

I should know if that's unlikely. Once again, we're so grateful to have you on here. You are unbelievable on this kind of terrain. We look forward to everything you're going to put up on hay, not the Faye substack. We love the podcast. Hopefully we'll even get something on Crown because I know you've done some

right for us, which has been very well received too. Thank you so much for joining us today, John. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me and the cat on. I'm glad. I hope you're relieved that they found Dana's phone too. Thanks, man. Oh, yeah.

I was very relieved. Yeah, that's about that. People aren't aware last week, this last thing before you guys kicked me off the show because I'm sure people are tired of the subject. But in the antitrust suit that's going on, people are not aware, is Oscar La Jolla and Nicco Ali Walsh brought up. The UFC is being sued again for anti-trust violations and potential class action. And part of the process is discovery that UFC was ordered by the court to preserve all evidence

and then handed over to the defendants to examine for potential information. And so the UFC since 2014 has been under an order to preserve all their cell phone communications. and just a long list of problems they've had on the UFC, the defendant's side is that they've lost phones, that they accidentally deleted or set phones to delete, that they did not alert the court that Endeavor executives were using the signal app, which came out during the Vince McMahon lawsuit with the UFC WWE merger. On that discovery, they found out that Ari Emanuel and Mark Shapiro had the signal app

and had been deleting their messages and didn't report that. just a long list of stuff. And one problem, too, is Dana White was missing a phone on top of having accidentally deleted apparently a bunch of material. And his missing phone, they thought that Ari Emanuel's nephew had stolen. And so that was the reason. The intern. Yes, the intern. And now, but they go, oh, that was a mistake.

He didn't steal it. We have now found the phone. It was in the back of an old BMW, Dano White had used a couple BMWs ago. But because it was in a black leather case on black leather seats, we couldn't find it. And now we found it. And the question is, I don't think they have the password for it so they can't open it. So they're handing it to the forensic expert. And he will see if there's anything on that phone.

You know, I know how that is. One of my daughters left a chicken strip in the little back, the seat, like a little pocket behind the seat. That thing been there. That was two summers ago. So it could happen. It can happen. I mean, all I could think it was Homer Simpson when he was asking for the speaker to yell at Bart. And then the only thing he could ask him was, where is the remote?

And it was in his back pocket. And that's what I like, all I could think of was that moment. Why, you know, it feels like that. Well, John, thank you once again. We really appreciate it. And hopefully we'll have you back on to spit some game in our ear about this current reform act or proposed reform. Anytime you guys want, anytime you want, anytime I can do it. And any time it works, I guess, there's a lot of, there's like, we don't want to have your people contact my people.

I will. I absolutely will. Thank you again, John. What a guy. Right, lads. I mean, it's just the three of us now. It's a bit weird. And look, Ben's in a bad mood because seconds before the show today, I sent him a message to say that the Saudis have pulled the support from the opera, the Metropolitan Opera.

Benny, okay, first of all, because we knew, look, we knew the Saudis been pulling money and the opera is something close to your heart. I just wanted, can I get a list of the things that the Saudis don't financially support? It's very short, the list. It feels like that would be a lot quick. It honestly starts to make me feel a little bit like how come the co-main event podcast that I co-hosts has never been approached by Saudis. Like how come, you know, we're over here at the University of Montana cutting our, you know, English master's program. The Saudis just couldn't dip in the pocketbook just a little bit. like they're funding everything else in America.

What the hell's going on? It's a good point. I mean, it is interesting though, right? This Saudi cutting all this money. Well, this is going on. And the figures, wasn't it? Like $200 million or something like that? $200 million.

I mean, it's not like it's insubstantial, you know. It's like that's a big number. It is. Like, I mean, it's billions. They're obviously investing in Formula One, live golf. We saw that collapse. And obviously, Saudis are a partner with TKO in this boxing venture. interestingly, I saw an interview with Eddie Herney tends to do them quite a bit.

He was speaking about Devin Haney and he was kind of saying, look, we don't have the money to pay this guy. He is not interested in traditional boxing bouts as we used to do with them. He wants the big ones. And next of all our report is out that they're talking about doing Haney and Shakurr Stevenson on a Zouva promotion on Netflix. And it's like, how is this, with all this money being put? hold and they're saying we can't invest in this, it's kind of feeling like, are you guys making money back on this boxing venture? Because I don't think it is actually possible that they could be making money off this. I just wonder why this seems to be their last stand, combat sports.

You know what I mean? I'm I missing something. I think in part because Turkey's, that's his enthusiasm, right? Like he likes boxing. I mean, I swear, I think it's just that simple sometimes that it's an area of interest more than the others, you know? I mean, that honestly is shockingly plausible like that. If it comes down to it, somebody looks at the books and says, we got to trim some of the fat here. What do you want to lose? And they go, we are spending an awful lot of money on boxing. And he goes, but I actually really enjoy that.

And they go, what about the Metropolitan Opera? And he goes, okay, that one. He's like, take that one. Golf, gone. Golf and much is golf. Went to see something at the Met was not nearly. as fun as I thought it was going to be boxing, that was a lot more fun.

Just get rid of it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, who knows, maybe you'll have an investment in RAF soon because Ben folks wrote a big old article about RAF, Chal son and a million dollar investment and a prospect by the name of Bo Bassett, I believe. And really, like, great article, by the way, and great quotes from, from Chale and Bo. But really, the thing that's jumping out to me from this article, Ben, is obviously we know

REF has rose to prominence but using a lot of the fighters from the UFC roster, namely Arm and Sarukin, who's become pretty much the poster boy of this situation. A lot of people believe that TKO UFC are allowing these fighters to work with REF to kind of stand alongside their arguments on the class action suits that John was just discussing. They've recently announced that Hamzaa Shemoev has joined the roster. Arm and Sarucyan appeared on Ariel's show on Wednesday and said, you know, they're getting money commensurate to what they're getting for UFC fights on RAF. You have this prospect, Bob Bassett who you spoke to.

He sounds like an extremely talented guy. You've listed off the opponents. He's beat. There has always been a conversation about after college, after the Olympics, what do you do as a wrestler? Is this becoming a viable option? Do you think for wrestlers to continue the careers beyond those Olympic and collegiate dreams? Well, I mean, for a guy like Bo Bassett was a viable option before even entering college.

He's obviously a rare case, but I do think there's something happening with RIF. If you've been around in this combat sports zone for a while, you've seen a few different people try to launch some sort of real wrestling promotion. And almost never does it work for any length of time. Like it's never worked. It's never been a going concern. It's always been just sort of here and gone. It's difficult to get people who aren't already super into wrestling into wrestling, because it's, It's a highly technical sport.

You've got to know a lot about it to begin with to even sort of enjoy what you're seeing for the most part. The rules, the scoring criteria, all that is not especially fan friendly if you're not already in it. And R.A.F has found a level of success that we haven't seen anybody else yet to. One of the ways they've done it is like they do, if you watch the broadcast, they do have a pretty fan friendly approach to it. It's a good looking broadcast. They move quickly from one match to the next. And they're roping in such an interesting cast of characters that we've heard of. And so they're kind of following a similar model that BKFC has done where they go,

hey, we'll get some of these interesting people into interesting matchups where you go, I do wonder how that would play out. Let me go over there. And they have the advantage. The complete opposite of BKFC is that they can go to somebody like Armand Sarukian or they can go to somebody like Uriah Fabor. be like, hey man, it's a wrestling match. It's kind of low stakes, low risk. I mean, at least if you stay on the mat and you don't run your opponent onto the concrete

on purpose, the risk of you getting hurt in, you know, three periods of wrestling is pretty low, especially if you know what you're doing. Maybe you win, maybe you lose, but you don't take too much of a hit. You don't get your face all beat up. You don't take brain trauma or anything. And you can make some decent money. Now, I don't know what kind of money they're making back. They have a deal with Fox Nation.

That's where you've got to sign up for an account to go watch it and everything. So they have pretty good crowds. It feels like a real event. I don't know if they're turning a profit. I would say almost likely they are not turning a profit paying these guys that kind of money this early on in a thing. But then that's probably the case for BKFC still too. I do think that one of the things, it was interesting talking to Shale about it because he, you see him on these broadcasts and you can tell.

Shale really loves wrestling and has loved it since he was a kid coming up in wrestling all through high school and went to college, went to BYU just to wrestle. It was not at all interested in the religious aspect of BYU the way he put it to me one day. Shockey. Yeah, they'd come and talk to you about it,

but he said, I'm a Catholic and I'm a Catholic on purpose. They're not going to convince me of it. And BYU cut their wrestling program and Shale said he was looking for places to transfer the next day, transferred University of Oregon back home and went back there and wrestled. And he still has this love for wrestling, very evident how excited he is on these broadcasts, but also he's been around it long enough that he referred to it as a road to nowhere. And he was talking about somebody he knew where he's like, I know this guy is a state champ in high school.

No college programs were interested in him. There aren't that many big time college programs left. the you know basically you go to somewhere where it's a club sport essentially not even an NCAA sport but none of the big time programs were interested and so it was just like hey congratulations on your state high school wrestling championship it's over your wrestling career is over 17 18 and it's just over and he's like you know that is still the reality in wrestling and I go back and forth between hoping that it could you RAF something could give you an opportunity to do it beyond that but he said everybody eventually

leaves that sport with a broken heart and a bad back. And as much as he was excited about Bo Bassett felt, you know, his offer, he explained, he was like, I was basically offering, I'll give you a million dollars to sign you to an NIL deal because I think I'll be able to turn around and sell you as a marketable commodity, other places, in a way that will bring me more than a million dollars. And I'm going to keep everything I make back, but I guarantee you the million dollars and just wasn't able to pull it off. But it also, it just seems like the, the,

The market is still so small. The question is, can you either grow that audience base for wrestling? Or you would have to get better at getting absolutely every single human being who is at all interested in wrestling to watch this. Or you just have to get better at monetizing it somehow. Like right now, I don't know if we, we have seen yet whether this is going to work. But I will say it is working better than anything we've ever seen anybody else try up to now. You know, Uriah Faber said he had a bad back, but that out of bounds thing actually fixed his back. You can't convince me Armin's not doing that stuff on purpose, man.

He's just misunderstood, Ben. He's just misunderstood, okay? He dig drives him like 50 feet off the. Yeah, like, and especially, and did it at a point in the match where the match was essentially over. You were going to win. You didn't have to do all that. You're doing too much. And, but yet there's no way, like,

If you're RAF, you've got to be pretty happy with the return on investment you're getting from Armand Sarukian. Because if you're paying him that much to him and wrestle for you, he's wrestling for you like every month. And every single time pretty much he does it, he does something that makes people go, all right, what does this guy's deal? He does something where the video circulates on social media. It drifts around all over the place online and people are reminded that this thing exists and that some interesting stuff is happening there. And so he's doing you a huge favor by doing stuff that creates these viral moments. It's just also kind of a dick move from other people because he's doing it at somebody else's expense pretty much every time. I mean, he's a godsend.

It's almost like a, and for them, he's probably more popular. I wrote about this at one point. Like he's probably more popular right now with RAF than he was as a UFC fighter. If you just strictly like divide them, which is a crazy thing because you're like what you just said. Nobody pays attention to it otherwise. You know, it's very difficult. If you're trying to, like you mentioned, BKFC, like a lot of times it's like, let's take these MMA brand names and put them in our ring and see what they do. People will peek in on that.

But it's tough to get an MMA, you know, a person who watches MMA to pay attention to something more specific. We're used to a wider range of things that you're watching within a fight, a little more danger zones, all that stuff. So to go to wrestling specifically Like, you know, real wrestling It is, you know, it's like going from like an action movie That you've watched for, you know, into like some kind of weird think piece

That you're like, we're not used to watching this kind of thing It's been the way they've navigated that I mean, Armum plays a huge role in it But the way they've navigated that has been very good I would say that that is one of the more positive things I remember you remember like MetaMorris and some of the jujitsu They would start those up And I thought that that might have the effect

They tried they put them to money in to it. They were paying their competitors fairly well. But it just didn't have any traction. But I feel like this right now has traction. And they've kept the kind of overhead lower by just, you know, going to college hotbeds, you know, college wrestling hotbeds and smaller venues and, you know, affordable production. I know they're probably not turning a profit yet. But given the exposure that it's gotten, I bet the tradeoff right now is still worth it, right?

Because people are paying attention to it. Yeah. It's, it's, I feel like the way they've used Armand, they're nearly in that situation that the UFC were in with Chuck Liddell, when everyone was like, yeah, well, what are they going to do when this guy goes away? And of course, the UFC did a great job, obviously on a smaller scale.

They aren't quite there. Like, I mean, they're not on the cover of magazines, big magazine, Sports Illustrated, all that kind of stuff. But I would be interested to see if they can get a draw akin to Arman. So it's just not so heavily on his shoulders right now, certainly for the casual audience. I'd say

it absolutely is. Casual audience in mind, a big fight coming up with The White House, don't know if you guys heard about it. White House is where your president lives, I believe. The UFC. Part of the time. Part of the time. Yeah.

The UFC, big, big fighting company. They're doing an event there. There's lots of talk about the structure, building and blah, blah, blah. One thing we do know is Alex Pereira is going to fight on that card. Chuck Bendon Hall has wrote an article this very week about the goat status that he could somehow capture. Should he win against Cyril Gann? And it's a very well done article because, Chuck, you've broken down everything. Like all of the candidates there, your GSP's, your John Jones, your Anderson Silvas,

even Habibner Magam Adolf makes an appearance. I mean, when you lay it out, right? When I was reading the thing at the start, it was kind of like, come on, it's an interim title fight. But when you lay it out, the fact that this guy has defended the middleweight title, the fact that he has defended the Lloyd Heavyweight title, has won back to Lloyd Heavyweight Title after losing it to Anke Lyef. Where do you stand? Are you beginning to convince yourself with those beautiful words you put down on paper? Well, it was Michael Kiesa who actually said this first, right?

That was like, it got me to thinking. And I was like, I should actually look at this. Because he said if Pereira goes and wins a third division title, that he's the goat. And at first I'm like, that's ridiculous. That's not true. We've seen him lose. But then you start thinking about him like, wait a minute. What's the criteria of determining this?

Like, how do you get, how do you, like, defend it if you really believe that? Like, how would you defend the guys against him who haven't done that? For instance, Habib, he was on, I brought him into it because he barely lost around during his career, you know? And like, that has to be considered through this process. But ultimately when I was doing this, I was like, no, not really. Because what you start to think about is the circumstances surrounding each step, you know? And like, and so, you know, he wins. And I mean, still to this day, the biggest accomplishment was him beating Izzy in that first time, right?

And like kind of pounding home the past story and saying like, hey, check it out. I can beat him in MMA 2. Now I've got his title. But then he loses it. And I thought that, you know, kind of order was restored. And he goes to 205 pounds more out of like, you know what, I don't want to make the weight cut. And I don't really want the, you know, I'm just going to go and try this other. I don't really think that we were all looking at him as like he's going to challenge immediately for a title.

but he ends up doing that. His run there is very good, but circumstantially, we've talked about the heavyweight mess that's been going on for so long, the belts, the interims and everything, and people like stepping aside

and vacating and everything that's gone on. For him to fight Cyril Gahn, who has already lost to a series of the great names in the division, even if it is an interim third title, like it's a third title, I would probably need to see him win that and then unify that,

before I would have that real discussion with Alex Pereira. I mean, I'd love to hear you guys' thoughts on this, because to me, I'm like, okay, I guess you could start to put him in that picture, but that's what he would have to do, I think, for me to be like, okay, now there's serious consideration for this. Yeah, I think that it's the kind of thing that if you beat Cyril Gaon, you add another, a version of another UFC title and another way class. And certainly it's a great accomplishment.

It looks good on paper. but as you know the goat conversation is always at least a little bit of a vibes conversation yes it is you know it's it's not it's never just about like the accomplishment we're going on like how we see you how we perceive you and if you go in there and you beat cyril gone who at this point kind of has developed a reputation of the ufc are going to keep giving him title shots when no one else is available or willing you know and so it's like it's still meaningful to beat cyril gone and heavyweight still impressive to keep going up and wait, to start out at middleweight and end up at heavyweight knocking people out. And it would be a huge stage to do it on. Alex Pereira seems like one of those guys where the more people get a chance to see him, the more people go, this guy seems interesting. What's he going to do next? So like it is a good opportunity for him to gain a lot of fan-based stuff. But for those of us in the hardcore MMA world, having those goat conversations, you do need to beat somebody like a Tom Aspinall or even a John Jones would have done it.

I think because that that was why that was such a huge missed opportunity for the UFC. Because if you could have made that fight, if you could have made Alex Pereira versus John Jones, we would have all gotten so excited about that matchup that we, for the moment, ignored the fact that the real heavyweight champion is at home letting his eyes heal. And instead, you put Cyril Gunn in there and we go, first of all, it seems like the guy who gouged the dude's eyes is being rewarded for it in a way. but also that no one was looking at Cyril Gahn as this is the best heavyweight in the world at the time that you booked this fight. So I think it would take at least one more.

Yeah. Well, I really enjoyed a joke because I found myself having an internal debate as right. You know what I mean? I've always been a GSP guy, you know? Well, that's always my been my default is like with GSP. But then you kind of break down and, you know, we're talking about kind of opportunities or circumstances in which you kind of make good on something. Obviously, coming back from 2013 to 2017. He comes back after four years and he fights the one guy who's like, yeah, you know what? I could go in there and beat Michael Bisping, you know, it's got one eye and I, you know, he's like, he's like, at the time he was something like 38.

I don't even know. So, I mean, even him, like, you can start to be like, well, how do you discount these things? How do you properly discount these things? Like even Habib, you're like, well, he's 29 and 0, but just kind of look at his conquest list and you're like that's not as good as some of these other guys and then you get John Jones who it's like

it should be an obvious answer but he's popped hot for I mean some people that's an automatic exclusion right like they don't even entertain John Jones just given that he's he's been busted for steroids right like I and then you know that kind of puts Anderson Silva into a weird spot there too

so it just it really depends on how you want to how you want to kind of score it in the end like you said it is a vibes conversation because you could make the argument for all these guys. You could also argue yourself out of all of these guys. You know, you mentioned the GSP Michael Bisping fight about, you know, GSP definitely seizing that moment to be like,

now I am interested in middleweight. I know. When I see who the champion is after all those years, yeah. There was Michael Bispin once told me when I wrote a story and he was talking about that fight and how, you know, he had been successfully fooling people about how bad his eye was for a while by that point, but that he thought GSP in his camp had a sense that

there's some blind spots for Michael Bisping. And he said that when they did the thing, you know, they're at Madison Square Garden for that fight and they exchanged corners so that, you know, your corner can come into my locker room, watch them wrap my hands to make sure I'm not, you know, putting any plaster or anything in there. There's nothing nefarious.

That time-honored tradition is sort of like exchanging seconds so that they can make sure everything is on the level and he said as I was sitting there getting my hands wrapped and GSP had Freddie Roach as his corner man and he said Freddie was standing there and he's not looking at all at them wrapping my hands. He starts, he's staring at the side of my face and he starts kind of moving further to the side as if he's trying to see where does this guy's field of vision lose me? Like where does it end? And he was like, shit. Like he kind of, they're on to me a little bit and he said he was very uncomfortable by how Freddy's just looking at him and

like sort of just like he's like they they know they know that my vision is not as good as I've been pretending it is and then sure enough GFC kind of gets on that side and clips him left hook yeah really yeah incredible that's an incredible uh tip it there by the way has he ever like taken out his eye thing for you like because the one time I was sitting with Michael Bisping in Houston I was doing like an interview with him and I don't think he'd ever done this and he's like you just pops out the eye thing and I was like oh my god it was like it was wild then I'm like okay wait a minute you got to tell me then how did you convince the commissions you know like to basically fight you know like to fight under then he's like never you mind you know and he's like he got kind of

you got a magician doesn't reveal his tricks you know I think he got into it in his documentaries yeah and he had he had some kind of code with one of his coaches who would somehow give him He'd be in the realm as a doctor was asked something. Sanyamount will be feeding of the information. The whole thing, that whole thing, more than any other stories we've heard, just completely gives the lie to the idea that these pre-fight medical examinations are there to make sure that everybody is fit and ready to fight. They don't want to find anything. Everybody has a vested interest in making sure that these fights go on as scheduled.

The medical exams are essentially a cover your ass tool. so that you can say we did it in case something terrible happens to somebody you can be like, well, we did our due diligence to try to make sure that they were good. And it also makes it so that if they try to come back afterwards and say, hey, I was fighting hurt. I had an injury into this. Then at times, and they have done this. They've done it to M.M.A fighters and they did it to Jake LaMada, you know, 80 years ago, they'll turn back and say, you put down on this medical form that you were fine. So you lied to us. And like, if anything, it's the fighter who's the only one who stands to get in trouble from that.

It's also been like the ultimate retort from the guys who think that Tom Aspel has elaborately choreographed this injury. Look, well, with Michael Bisping fought with one eye. You're like, don't, that's not recommended. You know, like that's a great idea. Yeah. You know what I mean? Who was like, yes, because this man crazyly fought with one eye,

what are you complaining about Aspinall? Absolute insanity. Love the sport, of course. And, you know, boys, big old character. this weekend and we're back at the world's favorite venue. It is the meta apex. It's not the apex. It's the,

they paid good money for it to be called the meta apex. It's the meta apex. I think a meta just laid off a bunch of people. I just saw a headline or something. So enjoy that name while it's still there, you know. I hope we got that cash up front for the naming rights on that. Fun, Zuckerberg popping up at UFC events makes me cringe. to the point that I want to disappear with my own asshole.

I'm not going to, like, you know, he has created, he has created those gifts for us all through the years and the passing of the things. I mean, I just, I don't know, gives me the willies, as they say. Yeah. I know what excited for this card this weekend? Who's on it? Al Jermaine Sterling is on it, Joe.

Yeah. See, somebody was asking me about this in my mailbag where they're asked, you know, Aljo's here in the main event and they're just like, okay, you know, he's coming off, I went over Brian Ortega. is there enough time left? Can he make a run at 145? And my answer was no. That's the short answer.

And not because he's not a good fighter. Like clearly he can still do a lot of the stuff that he does. He still has, he still can beat a lot of those 145ers. He also, though, he's, I believe, 36. Body has been through the ringer in, you know, from wrestling to MMA. There's, he's, he's got some physical damage that he's, He's working around and through.

But also, I honestly think still the biggest impediment to him having a real run and making a run at a 145 titles is going to be how the UFC sees him. They have never really liked him. They've never been eager to give him anything. He would imagine how many wins he'd have to reel off at 145 or how many other people would have to be unavailable before they reached down and be like, okay, Al Jermain, especially if they thought he might win. they did not seem to love it when he was bantamweight champion. They kind of rushed him into that Sean O'Malley fight before he really wanted to. They didn't seem eager to do anything with him there. He went to featherweight in part because of that to get a fresh start.

It's hard to see what would he have to do, especially they put him in this fight, which I think he's absolutely got a chance to win this one, but you can just look at the ages of each guy in it and know what the UFC is likely thinking here, right? well then luckily for us the UFC is about the best fighting the best so all he needs to do is clean playing the rankings and he'd be given a deserved opportunity he's right ben as they will he's right he's right that's why you're at the meta apex uh you know who's also the meta apex the proving grounds known as the meta apex mrs apex herself norma dumont will be appearing your favorite yeah you know chuk was at the the fame dumont v lad i was her was

At what point do we start referring to the meta-apex as the house that Norma built? I like that a lot better. I tell you what, it's fucking depressing watching these events at 5 o'clock in the morning and Blanchet Sound. Not a whisper outside. And you're like, why have I done this again? I made a deal on myself a long time ago that I won't do this. There's not a whisper outside or inside. I mean, it's just, yeah.

At least when they're in a big arena in Winnipeg, you can draw some energy from the crowd. I start the ultimate warrior. I'm just shaking my fucking. is some good fights on it. Davy Grant, my boy. I mean, Davy Grant, the most underappreciated

UK fighter of all time, still doing the fucking damn thing. Was he trying to be a shepherd as well or is he doing something else? No, no, just always on the MMA thing. You know what he was on tough

smashes, I think, back in the room? Was he really? He's still fighting. He had a three-year layoff because of a knee injury and he still goes on these runs and they keep on putting them

against these young guys who are like, oh, Davy Grant, what age is this dude? I'm going to, Fuck Davey Grant up. And then they eat a load of fucking elbows most of the time anyway. So I am looking forward to that.

But that's not a congested combat sports weekend. But I'm sure, you know, you'll think of things to do. Chuck, I couldn't help but see the result of the game last night. You know, first Ariel's team suffered one. And then I saw your boys, the Nuggets. And I looked at the stat line. My boy Yokic is still fucking wrecking people out there. 15 rebounds, what, 30 odd points?

Come on. Yeah. But it was a bad performance. It's like he he went out and shot the first like five shots. They were all off. Making Rudy Goberra look like a hero in this series right now. That's just disgusting, man. That was a bad one.

At what point do you pivot to being like, I'm just a Colorado avalanche guy? Because they're looking pretty good. I'm already in that process. I mean, I always am. I am a Colorado. I love that team too. They are looking good. But you know the problem is it's the team that they would face next.

The Minnesota Wild have beat them a couple of times in the playoffs. And the Dallas Star has absolutely owned them in the playoffs. that's where I'm like, yeah, we could beat the Kings, but I'm not sure what happens when we get to the second round. That's going to be the true hurdle, I think, for them. I mean, they are the favorites. Yeah, they are. There's their top betting favorite to win the Stanley Cup this year.

They are. I see, this is me trying to get you. I know that maybe you've dabbled a little bit trying to look up some hockey, trying to find how you can watch a hockey broadcast over there. Wow. Yeah. But I got to tell you, watching the NHL play. playoffs is a completely different experience than watching a regular season NHL game.

These guys are out there every night trying to take each other's damn heads off. Okay. It's crazy. The hitting goes up to another level. Seemingly after every whistle, every minor stoppage in play, we're punching each other in the face. The shit you can get away with doing to another human being during the NHL playoffs without even being sat down for a couple minutes in the penalty box is amazing. And what's really insane to me is if you pay attention to what is required of the NHL referee.

I saw you posted in the house. There's no way they're getting paid enough to do this. Because almost every single time they blow the whistle to stop to play, they got to get between a couple. It's like 500 pounds of professional hockey player on either side of them. And they got to throw their body in there, wrench these guys apart. There are fists flying that they're catching strays. All kinds of crazy shit is happening.

It's basically they, you ever try to break up a dog fight? You dog ever. They're basically doing that, you know, 16 to 20 times a night. It's insane, all of which is to say, highly recommend the NHL playoffs as a viewing experience. Which game? Which game should have watched this weekend? Any of them, Petsy. Yeah, absolutely.

No, tell me which one, and I'll find a way. The Minnesota Starz Series is good. Yeah. For she, well, Buffalo and Boston is a good one. Buffalo is an exciting one just because they have been. shit for a long time. Did they win last night? They did win last night.

Oh, nice. Two won in that series. Boston, not going to go down easily, though. And the other one for as long as it lasts, uh, watching Philadelphia and Pittsburgh natural enemies. And the intensity of those games has been really, really high, even if they haven't always been quite as competitive as maybe I would have liked. The last one I watched was America and Canada.

And I text you guys like halfway through going, these guys aren't funny. And they're like, oh, they're not going to fight. And the playoffs, too, generally speaking, they don't... In the Olympics, it's frowned upon. And the name was beside me and she was like, what's happening? And I was like, I have no idea. Nothing. I can't explain anything.

One, I know what a goal is other than that. Yeah. They try to fight less, right? Ben, in the playoffs, like they try to because they don't want to be suspended or like, you know, you don't want to get into a situation or hurt. The broadcast won't cut it though, right? Like, they will show me the way strong down. They will.

The referees make a much, much more. concerted effort to stop the fighting before. Because that's why it's such a hard job for the referees in the playoffs is that they are trying to break up all these scrums before it escalates into guys throwing off the gloves and fighting. And sometimes they succeed. Sometimes they don't. Normally when they fight in the playoffs is when the game is pretty much decided.

But what's incredible about the NHL playoffs is that normally during the season, you play a team once and then you move on, you play somebody else the next night. You might play them twice in a row. But that's kind of uncommon. And in the playoffs, you play a seven game series. First person to win for these games. And that is a long time to be lining up against the same guys each night. It's a plenty of opportunity for resentments to build.

Big time. And it also makes it so that part of the intense hitting of the game is because, hey, look, we might lose game two. But this series still got a ways to go. So if we can reduce somebody's physical output by putting the body on him in game two, you know if we can just if we can make them start worrying a little bit more about the violence coming their way in game two maybe it pays off in game five or six and so like it's just a the game completely changes in the playoffs because of the way these series were and you know the players inside and out by that point the greatest thing is you see like a seven game series goes to overtime there's all this tension it's a crazy sport that way and then they line up in a big line at the end and they all shake hands like gentlemen it's a that's a beautiful thing about they shake hands like gentlemen except some of the exchange hands like gentlemen except some of the exchange changes every once in a while. When the series is over is when they'll shake hands. And sometimes you can see in the handshake lineup,

there's a little bit of, I'm going to fucking kill you next year. You should retire in the off season, because if you come back next year, I'm going to fucking kill you. The Avalanche Red Wings used to have a bad, I mean, it was crazy. They'd fight the goalie would fight everything. But that's the kind of handshake line you would see with those guys. It was fun.

I'll be chewing in for it all, the handshakes and everything. And you know what? I'm sure Elaine is going to be ecstatic to say, oh, another American sport where you just stay up all night on at the most inconvenient times and then when I have a phone call at 2 p.m. You're like,

I'm trying to sleep here. Well, lads, that was a beautiful education. So much education, Dave. John S. Nash, check him out, hang out the face, substack. There's a great podcast with Steffey. It's really, really good.

He is the guy. He is the authority in all things, combat. I felt like he could have kept talking for another two hours, man. That's his wheelhouse, isn't it? He's so good. He's so fucking good.

And he has been for so, so long. There's nowhere else to go. Class action. This, obviously, this reform act, he is the man to speak to. And if there is any big developments, we will have him on again. But before we go, is there any super chats, Andy? Nothing today. Wow.

Wow. We don't even get to hear the music today. I mean, do you know what, Andy? This community has let us out. I didn't. Oh, at least you got the music. Yeah. Yeah.

Still nothing. Buskill. Thanks, guys. Love is very much. Thank you to Oscar Losef. Thank you to Andy. Stepping in for Jordan, who's on vacation for how long now? I mean, fuck it out.

Thank you to Chuck. Ben and all, thank you to Ben, folks. I don't know if I thanked Oscar Losef already. However, I love you all. We will see you next week. I'll watch ice hockey, and we'll talk about it then. Lots of love. Yeah.