The Ariel Helwani Show - Billy Corgan

Episode Date: August 18, 2022

The lead singer of the iconic rock band The Smashing Pumpkins and owner of the legendary pro wrestling organization NWA joins Ariel for a wide-ranging conversation about the business of professional wrestling. The guys discuss: When he first fell in love with pro wrestling (6:14) His messy fallout with TNA Impact in 2016 (16:20) Why he decided to buy NWA in 2017 (22:50) The difference between MMA and pro wrestling fans (31:00) Why NWA doesn't script promos (37:45) Plans for NWA 74 on August 27/28 (51:53) And much more!If you want to support our show, simply give "The Ariel Helwani Show" a 5-star rating on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. We are presented by NordVPN.  Grab the NordVPN deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/ariel Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee!

Hello everyone, hope you're doing well. Welcome back to a brand new edition of the Helwani Show. I, of course, am Ariel Helwani. It is Thursday, August 18, 2022. Love today's guest. Love today's show. Today's guest is an absolute legend. One of the greatest rock stars of all time. In the 90s, this man was on top of the world. He was the front man, the lead vocalist, the singer-songwriter for the iconic band, the Smashing Pumpkins. Everyone loves the Smashing Pumpkins, right? Especially if you grew up when I grew up back in the day,

90s. Today is the greatest day I've ever known. Billy Corgan, what a legend. This guy's an absolute megastar, and he's a massive pro wrestling fan. Yes, did you know that Billy Corgan is a huge, huge pro wrestling fan? In fact, he's in the pro wrestling business right now. He owns and promotes the National Wrestling Alliance, the NWA, iconic promotion that has been around for 74 years. In fact, August 26th and 27th, they have their 74th anniversary show, NWA 74 in St. Louis. And so we talked about his love of pro wrestling, how he got into pro wrestling, his early dealings with the likes of Paul Heyman back in the day in ECW, going backstage, Attitude Era, Raw, his not-so-great dealings with Impact Wrestling back in the day, and then buying NWA in 2017 and mixing the old school with the new school, his business dealings with Tony Khan and AEW, and even a little chatter about his appearances on the Howard Stern Show, SNL, Tonight Show.

I mean, this guy has seen it all. He has done it all. And I very much respect what he is doing in the world of pro wrestling. I think it's a fascinating story. And I'm really curious to see where he takes this. Five years running now with NWA, big anniversary show. He's doing things differently. He's open for business, wanting to work with other promoters. Really interesting stuff. Fascinating conversation with an absolute legend from the world of music, rock and roll, and becoming a legend in the world of music, rock and roll, and becoming a legend in the world of pro wrestling. And so without further ado, here is my conversation

with the one and only Billy Corgan. Enjoy. I've been doing interviews now for, I would say, about 16 or so years professionally. Never before, by the way, has my wife taken interest in anyone that I've spoken to, either before or after. She has never been more excited about the fact that I'm talking to Billie Corgan today because she is a massive Smashing Pumpkins fan. In fact, Billie, the song in our video, our wedding video is a Smashing Pumpkins song. Like that's how big of a fan she was. So when I told her that you were going to be on my program today to talk about pro wrestling she was a little confused at first but supremely excited so thank you very much for the time i appreciate it blessings to your wife thank you for that beautiful introduction it is great to have you here we have

a lot to discuss i'm a big pro wrestling fan love covering the sport sport, the business, all that stuff and more, and love what you're doing with it as well. And so, of course, everyone knows you, you know, the larger public knows you as, you know, the man from the Smashing Pumpkins for all these years. But us wrestling fans know you as the guy who has been fronting, owning, promoting NWA for the last five or so years. Before we get into all of that i do want to ask you you are a proud resident of highland park you put on an amazing uh benefit concert you and your partner just a few weeks ago i believe you raised over 250 000 i'm just curious by the way congratulations on that that's an incredible achievement could you just tell us after the shooting on july 4th what is the mood like in the neighborhood obviously it takes a while to get over

something like this but uh you know almost two months, not even, a month and a half later, what is it like these days? Well, take one step back. That day, I was here at my home, and my family was on an international flight, or we would have been at the parade. So, I texted my partner on the plane and said, is our tea house open today? Because I'm hungry. And she said, no, we're closed today for the holiday. So I probably would have been down there too. And, uh, so suddenly, you know, the reports start to come in, there's this mass shooting. Of course, there's all this crazy news shooters on the loose. I live about a mile away from where it happened. My tea house is a block away. So that whole day I was expecting someone to come up to drive and, you know, um, who knows what, you know, you're, you've got a million things go through your head.

So since then, we've dealt with the sort of the aftermath, you know, people murdered, tons of people in hospital ailing. Some people are back at work with shrapnel still in their bodies. So the community sort of rallied around something that would be sort of a positive message coming out of so much horrible negativity. And so we were able to put on a charity concert at my tea house and the community outpouring from the community since we did that has just been unbelievable. So, so touched. And, you know, when the 70 year old grandmother pulls you aside on the street and says, thank you for what you did for our community.

And thank you for changing the message a little bit. And thank you for showing the world that Highland Park is more than just what happened here. It's pretty heavy because I've lived here for 20 years and it's a beautiful community. And of course, people come out of the city, which is about 20 miles south to get away from things like that. And so when it visits your doorstep, it's very, very difficult to navigate. And this is a community that's very focused on those issues, a very liberal, progressive community. So it's almost like a double whammy of that something like that would visit this community when this is a community that's focused on those issues for what's going on, particularly

on the south side of Chicago. So it's been a very, very strange and crazy thing to navigate. But at the end of the day, we're safe. And so we've tried to focus that energy on trying to help others. Well, again, kudos on the concert and all the money you've raised and my best to the community as well. Switching gears, never easy to do that, but switching gears to your love of pro wrestling. Could I ask, you know, I've heard interviews where you've talked about growing up a wrestling

fan and whatnot. Do you remember when you first started to take an interest in this? Because as you know, there's like this, you know, it's like a niche thing. And sometimes you find out that people are longtime pro wrestling fans who you never would imagine are pros. You're like, wow, that's cool. Now we have some sort of connection. I think some people feel the same way with you because we maybe didn't know this. When did you first started, you know, taking interest, watching it, loving it? Sure. Four years old, I was living with my grandfather, who was about 60 years old and a Belgian immigrant great-grandmother

who was in her 80s and they liked pro wrestling and so at four years old I've got Dick the Bruiser and you know Vern Gagne and you know gosh Ray Stevens and all these great legends you know sort of yelling down my television and it just was so larger than life and that's all I really remember was like who are these people they came across as stars to me, but they came across as stars that were different than other stars. They weren't polished. It was the complete opposite. It was the raw edge. It was the intensity. It was the passion. And as somebody like yourself, who's covered UFC so much, I've said for years that one of the great things that UFC did is they took that old style of intensity and heat and brought that over into MMA. But that's what I grew up on, that kind of heat, that raw power heat.

You know, basically the old school fashion, the old fashioned version of I'm going to kick your ass. So that's what I remember. That's that sort of seals in my mind, sort of like that's what pro wrestling is. It's that intensity. Did you used to go to shows as a kid? No, I was from an essentially poor family and I never got to go to concerts and I never got to go to wrestling matches. So the things that I love, which was music and wrestling, it existed completely in my mind as something I saw on television.

And which promotion? Because so when you're growing up back then, it's more the territorial days. There's no like dominant WWWF in the 70s and then early 80s. Which promotion were you the biggest fan of? Well, here's the thing. In Chicago, we had this odd mix of AWA out of Minnesota. We had Bob Loose Wrestling in Chicago, which was actually sort of a weird combination of Bruiser's promotion, WWA out of Indiana and the AWA. We got Georgia Championship Wrestling coming up out of Georgia. So for me, we would see these weird things where people would be a bad guy one week on somebody's territory television, the next week be a good guy. It was so strange. It was hard to follow. All I knew was it was crazy. And but yeah, predominantly, I would say AWA was the biggest thing in Chicago at that time.

And do you recall the first show you ever went to? First wrestling show you ever went to later in life? Yes, I actually, funny enough, I was watching somewhere in the late 90s. I was watching WWF's Raw and, you know, there's Stone Cold and Mick Foley and all these guys. And I thought, oh, they're coming to Chicago. Oh, I'm a celebrity. I can go to a show. So next thing I know, I'm backstage talking to Triple H and China and The Rock.

And that's my first experience of actually going to a pro wrestling show. And Stone Cold pulling me aside and saying, I love Chicago. This is the best wrestling town in the world. So my first experience was so positive and welcoming and wow, these people are awesome. And, and of course, through the years, I've gotten to know people like Mick Foley. And it's just so cool because the brotherhood behind the scenes is so different than what is presented on, of course, on television. So I had this beautiful, positive experience. So next thing you know, I'm going to ECW shows and all sorts of other things. And chaos ensues from there.

And you made a couple of appearances on ECW famously, you know, trying to sing the national anthem. And there's a story that Heyman reached out to you about potentially buying it, at least a percentage of it in its dying days. Is that accurate? Yes. The backstory is I was friendly with a lot of the wrestlers, so I knew how much money Heyman owed the wrestlers. So somebody who was my go-between between Heyman and I said, he wants to have dinner with you. He took me out to a deli in New York, and I got full vintage Paul Heyman cutting promos

to little old Billy Corgan at the deli counter, basically saying, how would you like to be an investor in ECW? And I, you know, he, he lathered it up as only Paul Heyman can. And okay. I said, how much, you know, and he said, well, a million dollars. And I said, okay, what do I get for my million dollars? He said, 10%. And I said, Paul, I can do math. And I know these, I know ECW is not worth $10 million. So I, of course I didn't tell him how much debt I knew he was in. Um, so the only thing that sort of, I look back on that story on, uh, funnily enough is it wasn't too long after that, the DCW went out of business and the commands took it over. So it would have been funny if I had actually bought 10% because I would have been a position to negotiate with

the McMahon's at that point. That's the only sort of other little asterisk on the story, but otherwise I love DCW. It was such a great environment. And, um, I'm so glad I got to see so many shows and of course got to have relationships with so many of the talents of the years. In fact, Bully Ray, uh, is on, is on the pay-per-view, uh, against another person who was an ECW at some point, Mike Knox and the tables met, you know, it's like, it's crazy to me that, you know, I went from being a fan to being in the business to now I'm putting on, uh, you know, matches myself. It's, to me that I went from being a fan to being in the business to now I'm putting on matches myself. It's been a wild ride. And just curious, did you ever consider countering him and buying the whole thing?

It was never approached to me like that. I think at the end of the day, it just became a foregone conclusion that the most money he was going to get was from WWF or E, whatever it was. I do look back and wish I'd gotten a little more involved in the WCW sale. Because if you remember, I think the McMahons bought it for something like $4 million. I think it was less, by the way. I think it was 2.5. Yeah. So I mean, imagine, you know, I know I would have lost in any bidding war against the McMahons, of course, but I would have been very interested in that if it was for sale for that cheap. I just didn't realize it was that cheap for sale. Did that ever cross your desk? Did you even know? No, no, I heard about it. I had a lot of inside knowledge at that point. People were telling me,

I wouldn't have known who to call. Hey, I want to buy WCW. I do think it's a bit of a crime, and I say this gently, that WCW has never been revived or they've never had a bit of a crime and i say this so gently that that wcw has never been revived or they've never had a sort of a revival or anything like that it it's obviously uh vince mcmahon didn't want it to happen or it would have happened but i think it's a shame for people who are wcw fans that they never got to have that sort of that other moment all right i do i do regret that because i was a fan of that product as well and you you know, when your life is crazy in the nineties, two thousands smashing pumpkins, touring the world, uh, you guys are on fire. Are you still watching every week? Like, are you following it as much? Are you reading about it and all that stuff? Or did your interest wane a bit? Uh, no, I got to the point where I was having

people send me tapes in, in, uh, in Europe and stuff like that. It's a, it's a slightly embarrassing, but look, I think, I think going back to your question about when I fell in love with wrestling, rekindling my love of wrestling in the late 90s and early 2000s and finding something that wasn't music to enjoy, to lean into, to get into the gossip, to know people, to have a sort of a youthful experience with the business, that has everything to do with the fact that i ended up buying the nwa i brought that enthusiasm to say i think i could revive this brand so i think you have to have that and i think if you look at it uh two of the biggest

promoters of wrestling in the world right now basically are fans who turned into wrestling promoters and you know we know who the other person of that is so um yeah i don't think there's anything wrong with it you can't get a bad rap and wrestling for being too much of a fan. They do look, they do look askance at you, or as we say in the business, they look at you as a money mark, which of course goes back to Heyman. You know, I was just a walking dollar sign at that point. Um, they try to translate your love of the business into some sort of economic thing. Um, I try not to do that myself in the business, but I, but I get it now that I'm on the other side of the curtain. The other person, by the way,

that you were referencing, in case people don't know, is Tony Khan of AEW. I'm curious, what similarities, if any, and I'm building up, by the way, to obviously NWA, NWA 74, coming up in a couple of weekends in St. Louis. We shall talk about that.

Don't worry. I will scratch the promoter edge. You're a professional. I am in your hands. No, no, all good. But I want to build up to how cool this is that you're now the man in NWA, which is an iconic promotion and brand. But the similarities in terms of fan bases, I mean, you serve a hardcore fan base in music and then a hardcore wrestling fan base. And then the businesses, the industries, even, you know, like the traveling circus, if you will, are there a lot of similarities between the two industries? And if so, where does that similarity most lie? I would say the thing that does sort of cross over at this point is understanding that,

and you see it very much in the WWE business model model in that your weekly fan, your fan who's very invested in what you're doing on a week to week basis. They become your driver in social media and they become part of your economic driver. Those businesses between music and wrestling have sort of merged because social media has changed the way everybody operates these days. You know, your ability to be an independent broadcaster the way that you want, be it your own brand. You know, I know who you are. I knew who you were when you were working for other people. Now I know who you are because in many ways you work for yourself. So that's my point is I think the internet has shifted the focus where different people can come in the business and sort of voice their vision on the world because if they have the acumen and they have the resources, they can do it and they don't have to ask for permission diy culture and music in the in the late 80s going

into the 90s was very much you know going starting with nirvana and the pixies and things like that the pumpkins too we were able to build brands being totally against the systems that existed and i think you see it now in wrestling there are there are companies that come along a game changer wrestling is one that comes to mind where they basically say, we're going to do it our way. We don't need to ask permission. We're going to have our own rules and our own universe. And we don't need the blessing of somebody way up there to say, we can do this.

And I think that's where the worlds have sort of merged. Your first entry from a business standpoint into the wrestling business, correct me if I'm wrong, was with Resistance Pro Wrestling, correct? Yeah yeah i got in business with a couple guys out of chicago they sort of sold me on the idea that i could be involved with this independent promotion um and uh i had fun with it it was interesting it you know it went good and bad and all that stuff at one point i had a reality show that was being made for amc um and then the whole thing kind of went this way and i thought okay i'm done with the business and then lo and behold i get this call one day from dixie carter

of tna hey i've been looking for you for months i want you to come in and work for tna and start the money mark fan cycle all over again and next thing i went in the middle of a very strange pile ticket tna yeah and uh that's really i remember reading about resistance pro i believe in the wrestling observer but then obviously on tna and you're, you know, on camera and we start to hear about the stuff going on backstage. All of what's out there in terms of like why it fizzled out, is the whole story out there or is there more to the story? Because to me, it seemed like a great partnership. And then all of a sudden, as almost as fast as it came together, it was starting to fizzle. So, what exactly led to this horrible breakup? I would say only about 20% of the stories in the public. It'd make a great book someday if you want to write it. Tell us some about it. Sure. I've made peace with everybody involved. So, I'm not in a hurry to kind of re-dig up the bodies, but, um, it got, it got heated because in essence, uh, I was brought in with the idea, which I found out later. I didn't realize that at the time I was

brought into the booking and the production side of things with the idea that I could help them maybe land a new TV deal, or if possible also be an investor in the company. So that process inverted, we were enabled, we were not able to land the TV deal we would have liked in the company. So that process inverted. We were not able to land the TV deal we would have liked as a company. They started turning me for money to keep the company afloat. Of course, I have very good lawyers, as one would after 30 years in the entertainment business. And my lawyers created a framework of a deal that basically said, if T&A as a company was insolvent, that I would basically take over the company. At some point, the company was proven to be insolvent by me and by my representatives.

I moved to take over the company and sort of a leveraged buyout type of thing. I don't know what you call it. And then that's when the legal fur started to fly. Other people came in and it got real crazy there. But like I said, everything's sort of peaceful now. We're back working with Impact Wrestling. The NWA is. I'm very happy to. But yeah, it would make a killer book someday. The rise and fall of TNA is sort of an interesting story wholly on to wrestling. Oh my God. I mean, I too, I've heard you say this. I too used to order those Wednesday

pay-per-views when they first launched back in the day in the early 2000s. And I thought it was a really interesting thing when you came on board. And I'm wondering, considering what happened with your first entry with the Resistance Pro and then the AMC deal and then this, at that point, like that's almost like three strikes. I'm out. Yeah. Why did you stick around? Like, especially if the Impact deal was so sour by the end, What possibly led you to stick around? Well, the one little breadcrumb that led out of TNA was I did at one point, very briefly, sort of have control of the product or have a lot of leverage on the control of the product. And I started to see where the audience was responding to my particular vision.

I kept being told internally, your vision's too weird, your vision's too bad. I heard it in music too. So you can imagine if I heard it in music and I made it work at some point, if I've heard enough in wrestling, I start thinking, no, I actually see evidence. For example, just to give some of your audience a little bit of illustration, there was a tag team faction that I had a lot to do with, which was Decay. You know, I got them a song from a, from a artist, you know, uh, and took something that is very alternative and brought into wrestling. And it was super over right away. Um, I was involved in the Hardy deletion stuff, where it was my idea to actually start filming stuff off grid out of universal studios, which

led to shooting stuff at the Hardee's farm. Uh, and it was involved in the booking of all that. And that thing just blew up and took off, uh off like a rocket. And it was probably the most exciting thing that TNA had done in years, massive ratings. And the next day, Dixie Carter tried to kill it. So I'd had experiences of seeing my ideas actually go into the mainstream culture and actually work. So that was sort of the breadcrumb like, well, hey, by the way, the NWA is for sale. Hmm. What if I took over this historic brand, spent the money I was just about to spend on TNA and see if I could rebuild the NWA in my vision. And then I started thinking about the formative years of AWA and growing up with that style and thinking, maybe I can put these

two pieces together. So here here we are and one last thing on on tna um and this is to give you props i read correct me if i'm wrong that you were not a fan of the tna name neither was i always thought it was cheap and that you had an idea of matt hardy being on a boat and throwing the belt into the river and then that would kind of lead to the end of that brand and then a new belt will be introduced. Is that true? Cause if so, I love that idea.

That was great. The angle is booked. It actually never, sorry, the angle is booked and it never ended up happening because I left the company before it was to be done. Was there was going to be a seat. They were going to do something wrestling,

wrestling, wrestling, and then the, you know, everything would go black and then it would be the next morning. It would be Matt just rowing in, in the uh by himself and uh and then you know we did you know sun would be coming up and then he would you he'd look down and look up and i'm getting chills because this would have been such a great angle it's great it would have been the tna belt and he would have looked at it

and kind of looked at the sun and whatever, and just thrown the belt in the water. And that would have been the end of TNA. And then we would come back in the new year, because I think it was right at the end of the year, we would come back in the new year as impact. I mean, I was in these meetings and I begged whoever was in charge there, depending on the day, I'd say, look, this name's killing us. You can't get any corporate sponsors. You can't get, you know what I mean? We need ad money. You guys are coming to me for cash. Just change the name. You know, it's like, we can't, we can't, we can't, we can't impact TNA impact. I was like, oh my God. So I actually finally convinced everybody, okay, we're going to do it. It's

going to be this angle. It's going to be a deletion thing. And Matt will be the person who actually kills TNA and, and rechristens it starting in the new year when he walks through the curtain with whatever the new belt is. And it just didn't happen. Would have been great. We mentioned earlier, McMahon's bought WCW for 2.5 million. The Fertitta brothers bought the UFC back in 2000 for about 2 million. And the story is that people laughed at them. They said, you're just buying three letters. What the hell are you buying? And I think the same was said to you when you bought nwa however you didn't even get correct me from wrong any library or anything at least they did how much did you buy nwa for i can't tell you that okay why not why

why is everyone else allowed to say and and you can't i'll try i'll tell you what i'll make your promise when this company is successful as i want it to be i will tell you you'll be the first person to find out what about this less or more than what Fertitta's bought UFC for? Oh, definitely less. Okay. I did, though, it is important to say that part of the deal is in order to get the NWA from what was the sole owner at the time, I had to purchase the exploitation rights of what is called the NWA Houston Library. So I actually control that library. I have not yet exploited it beyond leasing out clips to TV shows.

There was the HBO show, I think, on Andre the Giant or Hulk Hogan or something. It's like stuff like that. And, you know, Dark Side of the Ring occasionally, stuff like that. But no, we have not exploited that library but i'm sitting on hundreds of hours of classic nwa matches but i don't own the own the things it's very complicated but that was part of the deal why ultimately did you decide in 2017 that this was worth it for whatever the price tag was as opposed to just starting your own thing smashing pumpkins wrestling billy corgan's wrestling whatever the name is,

why did you feel like it was important to buy this and it was a good deal for you? To me, that's the perfect question. Because when I reached that sort of moment where I was dealing with somebody trying to get this historic brand and legal complications and everything, even at one point, he put out a warrant for my arrest, which is a whole other story. What? Who did? The former owner of the nwa the houston attorney guy i don't want to say his name but he did put a warrant out for my arrest but why legit work or shoot that's all that's a that's that's a shoot that's all part

of the deal oh golly all right but put a active warrant out for my arrest in the state of Texas. So my point is, is in dealing with this junk to try to get the NWA, you know, you sit there and think, hey, I could just start Billy Corgan wrestling or Smashing Pumpkins wrestling or, you know, aerial wrestling or whatever, you know. At the end of the day, the key thing for me was I didn't want this company to be about me. And to add a little color to that is I've had a whole musical life where it's been about me. Even when I don't want it to be about me, it's about me. I love being in wrestling when it's not about me. I love when it's about Trevor Murdoch and Tyrus and Nick Aldis and Camille and Tyvel. I love it because I get to have all that same enjoyment without sort of always taking the heat.

You know, when you've been named like I have and publicly humiliated, like I have, you know what I mean? On the musical side, to be in wrestling, to be respected for bringing back something that's very important in the business, to put people to work, to put on your own vision of wrestling. It's very satisfying. And I would point to somebody like Tony Khan. Tony Khan comes from a very wealthy family. They own a national football league team. They own an EPL team. Why does Tony want to be in wrestling? Because he loves it. And so that's why I didn't want it to be about me. everything right but what you're doing now with power and what you did last year with you know empower and and i want to ask you about that in a moment but you've got this anniversary show 74 coming up 26 and 27 in uh st louis two-day event the deal that you have with flight like what you are doing right now how close are you to the vision that you had when you bought it in 2017 25 oh wow okay what was your vision when you bought it? What was your ultimate goal

for this? I want to bring back the NWA to international prominence and have it be a competitor of the top wrestling promotions in the world. I don't want to be the little guy or the niche thing or the thing on the side. In wrestling, if you want to blow money, you can kind of buy your way in, but you will never compete at the highest levels if you're not willing to do the work that we're doing. Um, and UFC is a very, you know, cause I was UFC fan when they were doing those crazy matches with like the boxer against the karate guy. We used to watch those on the bus with the pumpkins back in the nineties, believe it or not. We had the video. Um, so we were fans of the product back then so i i paid attention

to that transition in the into the fortita era and watched it grow and you know uh iceman and all that stuff that sort of vector straight up so i paid close attention as a fan watching how they were able to take something which everybody thought was completely worthless and rebuild it into this powerhouse four billion dollars later and counting. God knows what it's worth now. So I know it can be done. I know it's there to be had. And what I like to say to people, and I'll be quick about it, is I think the WWE is an institutional brand now. They have every reason to sort of be, they can be edgy again, but they have to be conservative to a certain degree because they have so much corporate tie up and so many sponsors.

And I get it. WrestleMania is this massive event. It's the circus. It is what it is. Tony Khan is coming to the market and sort of been a disruptor in a good way. But his product is very specific to a very specific audience. And for two plus years now, he hasn't shown much derivation on that. It's his vision. He gets criticized or applauded for it, but it's his vision. He's going to stick to it.

To me, the middle of professional wrestling is wide open. I grew up on wrestling where grandma watched it and a little kid like me watched it. I started this, this, this interview with you talking about being four years old, sitting with an 80 year old woman watching wrestling. So to me, if you're not appealing to the four year sitting with an 80 year old woman watching wrestling. So to me, if you're not appealing to the four year old and the 80 year old, you're kind of missing the core arc of America. And the numbers do indicate that wrestling over the last 10 years to 20 has become more and more niche.

They've asked more, less people for more money. So to me, the general audience, the heart of America, somebody, for example, like your wife, right? Not a wrestling fan per se, would she give it a chance if she watches one show and goes, ah, this is kind of cool. I enjoy it. That's the kind of fan that I'm after it. I don't.

And by the way, let me say one thing. All the people were very niche in wrestling. They all watch rock, right? They complain and they talk and they this and this dream match between this guy from japan and this guy from you know the you know jews not jews uh mars i was gonna say jupiter and mars uh dream matchups all this stuff at the end of the day they still want to see what the mainstream product is and i believe that there's a mainstream product there to be had by the NWA and I will get there. If it wasn't for the pandemic, how much further along do you think you would be? Actually, I think the pandemic in a weird way turned out to be a good thing because I had to stop the company down for a while and I had to

really decide, okay, am I really committed to this thing? And my partner, who's the mother of my two children would ask me every other day, are you sure you want to do this? Are you sure you want to deal with the headache? You have a great life. You've got kids, you've got a successful career. Do you really, really want it? And after nine months, I woke up one day and I was like, not only do I want to do this, I'm going to go at it. I'm going to double down and go even harder. So something about that time off made me kind of grow up a little bit and say, okay, you got to be really serious about this. This cannot be sort of a hobby or this other thing that you do. You have to be all in on it. So I'm, you know, I'm easily 60 hours a week on the NWA and music's anywhere to 80 to 100, depending on the week. So I'm all in. So I was actually gonna ask you, like, if this was

one of those, you know, pie charts, how would you break up your your work right now it sounds like music is still what is taking up most of your time but music is what pays music is what pays for the end right right let's not forget that so we're about 60 40 okay well wow that's pretty damn close though i i noticed though like i see on your social media i almost feel like do you okay now let's talk about another thing, a Venn diagram, right? How big is that part in the middle between the Smashing Pumpkins fans, your fans, Billy Corgan fans, and the wrestling fans? Because it couldn't be.

Yeah. Is that frustrating? No. I think in the beginning I was a bit naive thinking more fans would come along for the ride because it was another sort of act of my creativity. It just hasn't translated like that. And over time, I think the nice part about it is the average Smashing Pumpkins fans that knows about my life in wrestling is very respectful now of it because they see that I've taken seriously and they see that I brought something back that

they actually think is kind of cool. So even if they're not fans and not watching, they're sort of positive about it and they no longer kind of get these things like, why don't you just stick to music? And they're like, yeah, I get it. You have multiple dreams and you're living your dream and you should, you've been successful. So that has definitely turned and that feels nice. And what's cool is I think like something like NWA 74

becomes the perfect vehicle where you can say to somebody, hey, if you're going to give me one chance a year, this is the perfect time to do it. You're going to see the product presented in its best possible light. I'm happy to hear that because I have to say, anytime I post about pro wrestling, I get a ton of hate. Get this off my feet. Can you explain that to me real quick?

Because I'm just curious because you're in a unique position. MMA fans, which is crazy, right? Because I believe strongly, the reason I like MMA, love MMA, is because I grew up a pro wrestling fan, right? MMA was born out of pro wrestling. The roots of MMA are in pro wrestling. Everything that is great about MMA comes from pro wrestling. The only difference is the fights aren't scripted. But every great MMA star, right, has elements of Conor McGregor, Iceman. They're all pro wrestlers in a sense. So I feel like there's a great connection. However, MMA fans are very insecure and they get a

little uncomfortable, hot under the collar when you start to make that connection and present it to them. So even though someone who's able to take a step back and understand the history and the lineage can say like, look, this is all born out of this. They get very upset. No, no, no. Don't talk to me about the fake stuff. Why would you talk about, you know, scripted stuff? They're not athletes. Do you talk the same way about, you know, Harry Potter and this and that? And it's all nonsensical if you ask me, but they get really mad. They don't want the real journalist guy to be talking about the fake stuff, even though I don't consider it fake. It's incredibly athletic and tough on the body. We know everything. I don't need to tell you. They get very uncomfortable. That's the word that comes to mind, uncomfortable,

when the guy who covers the real stuff starts giving that same type of respect to the quote-unquote fake stuff. Drives me nuts, but I've just learned to ignore it. I find that funny because I know from my years in professional wrestling that there's a mad amount of respect in the professional wrestling community for MMA fighters. Yes, it's crazy. By the way, the fighters respect the wrestlers they all grew up wrestling fans it's the fans oh okay so protective and i think you can understand this a little bit it's almost like to a degree when the band becomes big time like they don't want anyone else so it's like no this is our little thing we don't want anything else we don't want any type of connection to

anything especially not the fake stuff like we can live with boxing and they're weird towards boxing too but the fake quote-unquote stuff they get super defensive about that's strange because i know there's nothing but love in the professional wrestling community for the mma fans and the mma fighters um i i literally never hear a cross word it's crazy and and you know as we say in wrestling, the boys, which is all the time, male and female, the boys love to watch UFC events because it is the spectacle. It is that larger than life moment. And, of course, it's the McGregors and people like that who draw the biggest flies, as we would say, because, you know, they have that ability to walk and talk. Of course. Yeah.

Well, I have to say, you know, I've grown up loving pro wrestling. I still watch it and enjoy it. I don't have as much time, three kids, the dub, everything like that. But the first time that I saw your product, Power, and the way it looked, and I didn't grow up, I grew up, I was born in 82. So I'm a little bit past studio wrestling days. But of course, I've seen every documentary and watched every clip and all that stuff. I thought it was so brilliant that you were bringing that back with the flags, with even the graphics, with the interview off to the side. I think it's brilliant because there's so much wrestling on TV now. There's so much WWE stop right there, but now there's AEW and Impact and

New Japan. How do you differentiate yourself? And you have like scratched this nostalgic itch, but you've given it like this 2022, you know, kind of coat of paint on it. Brilliant. Where did that idea come from? Like to go back and shoot it exactly like it was shot back in Portland or Memphis back in the day? Well, I actually pitched it to Dixie Carter at TNA.

We had an extra content show, I think it was called Explosion or something. And I said, and nobody would watch it. It was just a bunch of extra matches. And I said, let me make this show fun so people will actually watch it. And it won't cost any more money. And, well, how will you do it? I want to do a studio format show. Because the economics to a studio show are very favorable to putting on a lot of content for not a lot of money.

So that was obviously rejected. So, of course, when I bought the NWA, I thought, okay, where am I going to start? I'm going to start from this very simple thing. The positive side is people really enjoy power and it's become kind of our flagship show. I think the downside is that it's branded as a sort of throwback thing. And people do not understand. And I'm certainly putting this message out now. If you think that's the NWA, you don't you don't know me you know what i mean um when i was playing clubs in 1988 or 89 i mean we had no production we had no pyro nothing you know i mean so what was it that got a band over at that level well it was moxie and and power just raw power and so nwa power is sort of our moxie and our power. You get to see the brightest stars in a very intimate setting.

And you kind of can't turn your head away because there's something sort of strange about it. And in that way, it's very 21st century. I've always wondered, why the multiple R's? I think there's three or four R's. Power. Okay, it's a lot of power. It's a lot of force. It's not just power.

Okay. It's power. All right. But you pronounce it the same or you just have to like... Of course, yeah. It's a gag like everything else in my world. I'm glad you noticed because I, of course, when I'm typing people in the company, I just write power, P-O-W-E-R. I don't have the extra R's. But when we named it, I debated power, power. And I eventually came to the conclusion there was something sort of fun about power.

By the way, if you're looking for like a slick, sort of obnoxious, smarmy Jewish heel manager, I know this guy Heel Wani. That's my alter ego. I feel like I could cut a promo. You're welcome to come on NWA Power anytime you want. I could cut a mean promo on the business. I want to cut a promo on everyone in the business.

As you might know, uh, we do not script our promos, so you can literally. You don't believe in it. No. So you just, you, but you're not live though,

right? Well, we are. I mean, live to tape. Yeah, but we, I mean,

when we cut promos live on a pay-per-view, it's live. Got it. So you, and you trust the guys implicitly? Like you say, hey, you got three minutes, go ahead. I still cross my fingers. Okay.

You know what I mean? No, listen, a quick story. Ric Flair appeared last year on NWA 73. And I was talking to Ric before the thing. We were talking about all these incredible matches that he had had in the Chase Hotel back in the day. Harley Race, you know, Bruiser Brody, all this crazy. Right. And he says, uh, so, uh, what do you, what do you want me to say? And I go, whatever the fuck you want. I go, you're a Ric Flair. He goes, he goes, really? And I go, you can say whatever you want just here's the microphone and I gave him a live mic and he

said whatever the hell he wanted wow was there because because again real quick that's what I like about UFC right you know what I mean it's like if you see a guy cutting a promo even if he's working and some of course some guys girls are working sometimes but it's still got some heat okay that's what I want to see that's the part that i love that's the thing that i grew up on so i don't want i don't want a wrestler to stand there and say a bunch of stuff that's coming out of my mouth i want them to say what their character would say in their own way um was there any sort of talk of okay like when rick flair had his last match stuff it would have been a great story to have him have his last match on nwa nwa 74 coming up in just,

you know, 10 days from when we're shooting this and you talk of it happening there. It didn't happen there, but was there any talk of that? We were, we were asked to be involved. We ended up not being involved. There were a lot of cooks in that kitchen,

which is fine. Look, it was a big deal. You know, when you got ESPN covering something like Ric Flair's last match, everybody puts in quotations because no one's quite sure yet. It seems like it's his last match. There were a lot of cooks in that kitchen.

And there's some backstory stuff that I don't totally understand. But a lot of things were happening with WWE's blessing, including his daughter being at ringside and stuff like that. So there were WWE cooks in the kitchen, however far away they were. And there were other people involved. And so I just didn't want to get in the middle of like that. So there were WWE cooks in the kitchen, however far away they were, and there were other people involved. And so I just didn't want to get in the middle of all that. So at the end of the day, we chose not to be a part of it, but we certainly appreciate everybody involved. Conrad Thompson, who's the son-in-law of Ric Flair

and sort of runs that side of things and is a very successful podcaster in wrestling, probably the most successful podcaster in wrestling. That was sort of his deal. And so we look forward to working with Conrad in the future. It's, it's, it's all good. It's just, I'm used to kind of my own world running its own way. And as I said, recently in interviewing, it got a little bit of traction is like, I'm not, I'm not in the position in my mind to go beg anybody for anything. I think what I built or rebuilt with the NWA stands for itself. If you

want to be in business with me, great. If you don't want to be in business with me, that's fine. I'm going to keep doing what I'm going to do. How would you describe your business relationship with WWE right now? You know, it was very good. Um, when Triple H was in power before he lost power and came back now, um, he and I had a lot of discussions about the Houston library. He's a particular fan of that promotion, uh, which was the Paul Bosch promotion. Um, and, uh, and we just never were able to put together the deal for me to transfer that library over to him. And then for a while, we had discussions about being on the network when they had the network on their own, not on Peacock. And we talked extensively and I talked to, you know, I don't want, I guess, mid-level manager, but very smart, very bright people about being part of the

WWE starship. That also just didn't happen. But they were very respectful. I've never had anything but less than a positive interaction with WWE on every level. As a fan, as a celebrity, as a professional person, always total class with me. Nothing to say but good things. Just curious, do you see a difference in the product now that Vince is gone and Triple H is headed creative and all that?

Sure. I think you had a good sense of what Triple H's vision was for wrestling, not only through his in-ring career, but the way he was running NXT for a while, and now Shawnels is running it who's also brilliant and one of the great superstars of all time um the thing i would say and i think i i get why everybody want to run wants to run to the exit towards like what's it going to be like um and i'll use my own example real quick um the pumpkins is an institutional

thing even though i wrote the songs and it's my idea and I named the band, it's an institutional thing. And when you grapple with an institutional thing, it's a little hard to pivot a battleship. It doesn't just happen quickly. So I think we won't really know Triple H's vision with the WWE for a couple of years because you just can't go in and just start pressing a bunch of buttons. You got to kind of press a few buttons, see what happens. You have to see who's loyal to you. You have to see who's really going to, who's really on your side of the street and who's pretending they're on your side of the street. So I don't, I don't see changes happening relatively quickly, but I think you can already

get a sense, particularly who's come back. A lot of talented people have come back. Somebody was just working with us in Sam Shaw, Dexter Loomis in the WWE world. He's gone back. Killer Kross has gone back. Top Dollar has gone back. I think you see that some of the people that maybe Vince wasn't focused on have come back. So I think that's a very early indication of where he's going. How would you describe your relationship with Tony Khan? Because one thing that I like to say sometimes when I'm giving, like this is part of the character that I play, giving myself the old Barry Horowitz. Excuse me, you know, Barry Horowitz, right? Pat yourself on the back when you're trying to be like, oh, yeah, I did this, but you're really trying to pat.

I thought he was giving himself the old Barry Horowitz when he was tweeting about the all-female show that you had last year, where I guess that, you know, they let some AEW talent appear on your pay-per-view. And I saw or I heard an interview that you did with Sean Ross Sapp recently where you said there's a little bit more to that story. He put it out there and you kind of wish that he didn't put it out there, or at least the way in which he put it out there, and you chose to take the high road. Felt to me like you were kind of biting your tongue a little bit, if I may, in that moment. How would you describe your relationship with Tony after he put that tweet out? I think it's one of those things where he has his version, I have my version,

but everything's kind of cool. I don't think we need to legislate it in public. There's no real heat. I think Tony is in a very unique position. And there's things I've told Tony in private that are now starting to come true. And I would hope that he would remember some of those things that I told him because I'm sort of a transparent and honest broker in the wrestling business. I want Tony Khan to succeed. Tony Khan's actually good for NWA business. He's charting paths and opening up doors that I can't open. He's proving that WWE doesn't run the entire wrestling business when you're dealing with,

and you know these people behind the scenes from all your MMA world. When you're the UFC, yeah, there's a lot of other things, but the corporations and they tend to focus on, it all kind of starts there. So for 20 years, all that corporate money and all that television money has been very focused on one company alone in a very diverse world of professional wrestling. So Tony Khan has sort of wedged those doors back open and he's making a case that the world is ready for more and alternate forms of professional wrestling again, which is fantastic. So I have no bone to pick for Tony. And like I said, in the, in the interview, there's just stuff there So I have no bone to pick for Tony. Uh, and like I said, in the, in the interview, uh, there's just stuff there that I sort of had to kind of like react to,

but it started with somebody cutting a promo on me that they should have never cut. So I cut enough of a promo back to say, Hey, look, you know, let's just kind of leave this be it's kind of kicked back up again a little bit because of the interview that I did with Sean, uh, because of some of the stuff that he approached. I just don't think that stuff is really for the public consumption. I get that there's a wrestling ecosystem now that thrives just as much on gossip and sort of chatter. If me and Tony were in a room right now, we wouldn't talk about the issue. If we text each other right now, we wouldn't even talk about the issue.

It's not an issue. It's really only an issue because I sort of talked about it a bit. There's always great excitement when promotions come together. We saw that with AEW and New Japan recently. Even in the MMA world, we talk about, oh, this guy going here. Will we see more of that? And I feel like you're the kind of guy who is open to that. And I think it would certainly behoove NWA.

And I know that some guys pop in and out. And that's kind of the old model, but like an NWA AEW pay-per-view or an NWA versus impact pay-per-view. Is that something that you want to explore? Absolutely. I'm open for business. The only thing I'll say, and this is maybe part of the thing that came out of the interview that we were talking about in regards to Tony is, and this is for everybody, this isn't sort of pointed at Tony. I have a unique position in professional wrestling in that I'm a bona fide celebrity outside of professional wrestling. I can get a meeting with anybody at any company at any time. Right? So my ability to operate in wrestling is very different than just about anybody else's ability. So when we're doing these kind of

internal negotiations about working with other promotions, my position isn't like, hey, I'm a big celebrity, you should sort of do what I want to do. My position is, I know exactly where the NWA is. And I want to work with you. And I want to make sure that you feel good about it. When I feel that people are leaning on me a bit too hard, you know what I mean? And it does go back to that sort of what Tony talked about. And when I feel like people are leaning on me a bit too hard you know what i mean and and it does go back to that sort of what tony talked about and when i feel like people are leaning me on me a bit hard that's where i sort of like okay i'm not i'm not doing that because that's where that puts me in a weird position where now i have to make a choice between billy corgan the wrestling promoter or billy corgan the celebrity okay right you said i'm saying sure now now we're outside the bounds of

just like a wrestling world gossip now we're're talking about like, am I going to get a call from Rolling Stone about something silly? Right. So so that's the sort of my point. And that's why I didn't like what Tony had done at that time, because those are things that should be kept off grid because Tony's part of an NFL franchise. I'm a quote-unquote legendary rock star. You put those two names together, they transcend the normal boundaries of wrestling gossip. So now we're taking a wrestling gossip thing and we're spilling it across into other things. I don't play those games and I don't want to play those games. I really do want to be in business with Tony Khan, Scott D'Amore. I would love to talk to Triple H about business again now that he's fully in charge of the WWE universe. I think the NWA is open for business. And I think that I'm hopeful that the day will come where Tony Khan particularly

will wake up and realize that if he can put together a super show of every non WWE promotion, it will rival WrestleMania and draw and focus. That opportunity is sitting there today. You don't have to wait for it. It exists. And the NWA has proven that we can be a vital part of something like that in terms of the promotional level, including my ability to go out and talk to mainstream media. So, so yeah, that's just part of the game we're all in. So I hope it comes across. It's no heat. It's sort of like, I know who I am. I know what the NWA is. I know where we're going and I'm not getting on to get on my knees and beg to anybody in the business, anybody that includes anybody from the WWE on down. I'm not begging.

I'm on a trajectory. You want to work with me, work together. And that was part of what went on with the WWE is they kept saying, you're a really unique case because the things you're asking for, we can't say no, because normally we would say no. But because you're you, we understand you have different leverage and power in this world. And that's sort of my been my position is I'm sort of transparent about it. So don't try to knuckle me down and I won't try to knuckle you back. And we'll kind of try to find that balance. I know you've appeared on, on camera before, but do you have aspirations? And I also know that you just said like, you want it to be about the other guys and not yourself, but you as a character,

obviously feels like it could draw some money. Do you want to be a character? Is that part of the plan? I'll tell you what. Let's start here. Okay. The all-time angle that's right in our hands right now, or one of the all-time angles would be me and Dixie Carter,

either on the same side of the street or on opposing sides. I'm not sure Dixie wants to get back to the professional wrestling business, but that would be quite interesting. Have you pitched it to her? I haven't pitched it to her. Look, we just mended fences about a couple months ago, so we'll leave it there, but I'll throw it out there. That would be some red meat for people to chew on.

That would be a lot of fun. Because as you know, when you kind of got that sort of natural thing where it goes organic to your work shoot, there can be a lot of fun stuff that you can do there. Yeah, I'm okay with being a wrestling character under the right, uh, things. I did insert myself recently into the world title picture where I took a world, a number one contendership away from Nick Aldis and, uh, and, and said some heated things on busted open and, and he said some heated things and, and both of our phones start blowing up.

People are like, are you guys working or shooting? And that's the beauty of it, right? What are we doing? I love that. For someone that may not be familiar with the product right now, in a nutshell, could you describe what is the difference between your show, your product, your promotion, and the main ones, right? Namely, WWE and AEW. If I'm giving you an hour a week, two hours a week to watch your product, what is the difference? What am I getting that I'm not getting there? and 320. Wow. We've gone, we've, we've, we've invested in size, power, and just raw meanness. And it goes, it goes back a little bit to the, to the MMA world, right? It's like, when I look at what attracts me as an MA, MMA fan, it's like, I want to see the toughest people, whether they're featherweights or, you know, Ronda Rousey changed the world by proving that women

could be respected as main event draws because of the toughness. So if I would define the NWA in one word that separates us from anybody else, it's just, we're just tougher. What is NWA 74? Because when I see the number, I think of UFC, right? They number their events. So ultimately I'm like, oh, wow, this is cool. They're numbering events. Come to find out 74th anniversary of the, of the promotion. This is a big deal two night event so it's a la wrestlemania this kind of feels like your wrestlemania if you will you're going back to it is yeah already a historic you know market st louis um what why is it so special why should people order it and if you can like go old school promoter on us and tell us what is on

the card or cards i should say sure yeah let me start here. 74 years of continuous operation. I mean, that's just crazy. It is the, it is the longest and oldest thriving, you know, literal fight promotion in the world. So that says a lot. The chase ballroom, they didn't allow wrestling back in there for 37 years. They allowed us to come back in. So you have have the history not only where history was made we're making new history tyrus six seven 375 pounds challenges the champion trevor murdoch is probably six seven three thirty that's your main event on night two your main event on night one is camille who's a freak phenom former division one athlete against ty balkery who's a decorated champion just as big just as powerful might even be a little bit bigger. So they're right there, right?

Just raw power. That's the NWA. Nick Aldis will face Flip Gordon. Dash LaRoubellion versus Continental Connection. Harry Smith, you know, a famous father in Baby Boy. You know, it's just so much. It's hard to quantify all these matches. S versus jack stain for the national championship uh we have a 10 women gauntlet match to determine another number one contender and the winner of tie and camille faced that winner on night two uh we have

a 10 team battle tag battle royale damn try that one on for size so you have 20 men in the ring in a tag match over the top battle royale old school style to determine it we're bringing back the u.s championship the tag championship belts and are you head booker for all this oh yeah i book everything write everything golly that is and and how many people do you expect for you know both nights combined in terms of wrestling talent or no no fans i don't know you know st louis has been hit pretty hard so we've been navigating that economy you know i had massive floods and that seemed to really kind of put a crinkle in the promotional side so we're still working on that i mean

hopefully we you know we'll do over a thousand twelve hundred people over the two nights but you know in terms of wrestling talent you're looking at 80 people in the building easily wow when nwa goes somewhere we're probably up to about 120 people coming in the building. And how often are you shooting? We shoot, we do four pay-per-views annually at the moment. Two pay-per-views are double, Crockett Cup and the anniversary pay-per-view. We're moving to five pay-per-view cycles next year. So currently we shoot about every 11 to 12 weeks and next year we'll move to about every 10.

And we're going to add more live events as well. So we're expanding for next year already. Are you profitable? And if not, how long? Oh, don't make me laugh today. No? Listen, I compare what I've done to like a tech startup. You take something and you try to convince people of a dream. And as you're convincing them of the dream, you're trying to decide whether you want to bring equity partners, whether you, who you want to partner with and what you're going to give up. I am 100% owner of the NWA. So rather than take a bunch of money from the outside, which I could have done or taken a big loan against my, you know, my song royalties or something, I decided to build this thing back up culturally first using kind

of the UFC model. Like what are you actually trying to sell to people? Professional wrestling oftentimes makes the mistake of like, Hey, throw a bunch of money. Hey, check it out. Here's, here's what we have. I've actually tried to build something or rebuild something that when you look at the wrestling ecosystem, you will say, there's this, there's this, and there's the NWA. We will have clean air around us. There will be nobody like us in the business. We'll be more creative. We will be tougher, stronger, and hopefully faster. And I think I'll prove that out over time. I think I've done that as an artist, and I'll do that in the wrestling business. It just requires a certain level of patience,

including for me. There are times I wish I could just drop half a mil on the fire at the NWA, and I would get a return back in terms of intensity and heat. It just doesn't work like that as a business. And I know you have a deal with Fight TV, but do you feel like you need a TV deal or anything, you know, like, are you happy with that? Obviously, you don't want to crap on your partner. I get that. And they have a great product. I'm a fan. But do you feel like you need a weekly TV show on linear or on some kind of platform on some sort of streaming? Yeah, that's a great question. Currently, we're on twice a week on YouTube for free Fridays on with power and Saturdays for USA. So the audience has reach,

I think it gets down to the economics of how you want to run it. I definitely want to partner in the marketplace who's willing to put up real marketing and real money to have the NWA be part of sort of their journey. The question is what they will want in return. Up to now, I've resisted every overture because they wanted more than I was willing to give up. So it's like, like I said, it's like a brand building exercise

with like a tech thing. It's like, what's your burn rate against what you're willing to give up? And at this point, I don't want to give up anything. So it's NWA 74, August 26th and 27th. I would say to MMA fans out there, very quiet, rare, quiet weekend in MMA. In fact, no UFC that Saturday, one of the rare Saturdays on the calendar that there's no UFC. So if you're itching for some combat, go check out NWA 74 on Fight. And I think you'll enjoy it very much. My hero as far as broadcasting is concerned is Howard Stern.

I have watched and listened to him for far too many hours. And I think he's the greatest interviewer of my lifetime. You have had the honor of being on his show so many times. And when you're playing, when you're talking, it's just great. And the admiration that he has for you is really incredible to watch and listen to. And so I'm just curious, A, if I could ask just what it's like to be on Howard's show. I've never met him before. And B, when you were in the 90s doing your thing and appearing on SNL and Howard and every late show, which of those institutions for you was the coolest? Like you were like, damn, I can't believe we're on this. Was there one that stood out that

meant the most to you? Let me answer your questions in reverse. I think when we first played, you know, The Tonight Show and be on that same set that Johnny Carson shot on when I was a kid, that was late night. And then, of course, you know, being on the same stage that the Beatles played when they came to America at the Ed Sullivan theater, uh, with David Letterman. And even we did one time, David Letterman, where they closed down the street and let us play on the street. So amazing experiences. And, and, and so everybody was always very kind to have us on there. And, uh, I'm very proud of those accomplishments as far as Howard goes. It's very interesting because, uh, I used to be on Howard in the 90s when Howard was more like, you know, what they would call a shock jock. And he would ask you such crazy questions and you'd be asked these questions at like 7 a.m. And, you know, he'd be eight feet away and, you know, Robin's in the booth and you would kind of give pause to go on there because you never knew what Howard would say or do and put you in a position where you might look bad, particularly against such a loyal audience.

And so I wasn't on for years. And then they eventually asked me back on. I don't think I'd been on for at least 10 years. And in that time, he had shifted to what he is now, which he is the best interviewer in all of media. There is nobody that I can compare Howard to other than maybe Charlie Rose in his prime. As far as an interviewer that, you know, for somebody who's been interviewed thousands of times like I have, you can't believe the depth and the level of the questions and the way they're able to steer the conversation to keep it interesting, not let you talk too much, kind of talk about what you want to talk about, but give their audience. It's sort of this perfect balance. It's a form of mastery. So it's been interesting to watch the transition of Howard as a person, as an entertainer, and as a talent. And he's such a lovely person behind the scenes. I have nothing but great things to say about Howard. He's just treated me like gold these last

sort of 10 years. And honestly, probably nobody in all of media has been more faithful and kind to what I've tried to build on the music side than Howard, because I got into this kind of confrontational relationship with music media and media in general in the 90s. And when I wasn't as successful in the early 2000s, they just beat the shit out of me and just kind of turned me into kind of like an almost like an object of mockery and derision and really was howard standing up for me and saying no not only is this guy being treated wrong this is a world-class talent it deserves to be in the rock and roll hall of fame he kind of started to shift that conversation around me single-handedly um i'm very grateful to howard in that way um because he's told me both publicly and privately that he just doesn't think the way

I'm treated in the world is fair. And he, for whatever reason on his own, because it's nothing I asked for, he just put himself in a position as being someone who's a supporter and a defender. And I'm very grateful for that. And my family's very grateful for that because Howard really is one of those sort of legendary talents that when you come in contact with, whether it's an Ed Sullivan or a David Letterman, and now Howard, you know, you've got to step back and say, this is a way you gauge yourself historically. Because it used to be things like Rolling Stone. Now you wouldn't gauge yourself against that anymore because it's not what it once was, where Howard took new media to a different height and has given the long form interview, you know, what we now look at

podcasting at, Joe Rogan in particular, he's given it this kind of other level of finesse and art form that heretofore did not exist. Well, I'm happy to hear that he's as cool behind the scenes as I believe he is, you know, in front of the mic. Your appearances just absolutely legendary. I was watching one this morning from, I think, 1998. Just crazy stuff. So well done. I'm sure the memories are, you know, plentiful. I can't wait for the book where you tell us all these secrets. And I can't wait for when you tell me how much you bought NWA for, but we'll leave it at that for now. NWA 74, August 26th and 27th. I'm rooting for you, man. I really do enjoy the product. I really do like what you're doing. I love the old school meets new school. I love the power show. The way you shoot it is brilliant. Well done. And I wish you guys nothing but the best. And thank you so

much for giving me about an hour of your time. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Last thing I'll say, since we're promoting, if you're an MMA fan and you don't like the NWA, you don't like wrestling. You know what I mean? You just don't like wrestling because we're probably the closest thing to MMA that's out there. Well put. Thank you, Billy. All the best. Thank you, my friend.

All right. How great was that? Tremendous guest. Another guest that I could have talked to for well over an hour. Appreciate his time. Love the stuff at the end about Howard Stern. How cool was that? His appearances on Howard Stern, whether he was just a guest or actually playing music, appreciate his time love the stuff at the end about howard stern how cool was that his appearances

on howard stern whether he was just a guest or actually playing music legendary stuff and i am really interested in what he's doing with nwa their show nwa power is a really cool fun show i like it a lot and i think it could be a cool place for hielwani if i'm being honest cutting a few promos off to the side wearing sunglasses not a big sunglasses indoors guy but something you know a suit i could be that heel manager i think i could cut a promo or two on the biz anyway i wish them the best again august 26 27th on fight fight does a great job that's f-i-t-e they're a great pay-per-view provider platform online. They have a ton of stuff like BKFC and a ton of MMA promotions, some boxing as well, pro

wrestling, of course. They've been doing that for quite a while, and they're a great spot for someone like NWA. So I wish Billy and his whole entire team nothing but the best. I hope you enjoyed the interview as much as I did. And we keep this train rolling along. Thank you very much for all the support. Go check out our YouTube channel, youtube.com slash Ariel Helwani is where you can watch all of these interviews. Last week, we had the great Brian Gewirtz on. Hope you've picked up his book. It is out right now. So go

check it out. And many, many more to come. Now, thank you to you. Thank you to the listeners. Thank you to the followers. If you're rating, downloading, subscribing, reviewing, all that stuff and more, I appreciate you more than you know. Thank you to the lovely feathers for this great theme song. We appreciate them very much as well. And most importantly, thank you to Billy Corgan. I appreciate him. Good luck on August 26th and 27th.

Check out the product if you haven't. And I appreciate you checking us out as well. Have a great weekend. I'll talk to you soon. Woo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo