The Ariel Helwani Show - Brian Gewirtz

Episode Date: August 11, 2022

The former Head Writer at WWE and current SVP of Development at Seven Bucks Productions joins Ariel to talk about his time working alongside the biggest names in WWE, which he covers in-depth in his new book, There's Just One Problem...: True Tales from the Former, One-Time, 7th Most Powerful Person in WWE. The guys discuss: Why the pandemic was the perfect time for Gewirtz to write such an important book about WWE history (9:47) What it was like challenging Vince McMahon at the height of his powers (24:08) His reaction to McMahon's retirement and where Gewirtz thinks WWE will go from here (27:40) Memories from WCW Invasion in 2001 (35:44) The art of the promo (54:10) His close working relationship with Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson and what makes The Rock so different from other stars (1:01:45) Plus, Gewirtz and Ariel share memories from Syracuse and thoughts on the current state of professional wrestling.The book hits shelves on August 16. You can pre-order a copy of the book here.If you want to support our show, simply give "The Ariel Helwani Show" a 5-star rating on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. 

Hey everyone, I hope you're doing well. It's your old friend Ariel Helwani. Welcome back, of course, to a brand new edition of The Ariel Helwani Show. It is Thursday, August 11th, 2022. I am so excited about today's episode. This is another one of those guests that I've wanted to talk to for quite some time, and I'm finally getting the opportunity to do so. And the timing is great because he has a new book out. His name is Brian Gewirtz. At one time, he was the head writer for World Wrestling Entertainment.

If you are a fan of WWE, you have certainly heard of him. He was there for quite a while. He started in November of 1999. And he went all the way up to the end of the summer of 2015 and for a good chunk of time there he was the head man a former Syracuse guy like myself a big Bills fan a big Knicks fan we have a lot in common and it was just so exciting to pick his brain about his career working with the McMahon family working with the Rock he has an incredible relationship with the McMahon family, working with The Rock. He has an incredible relationship with The Rock. In fact, right now he is the Senior Vice President of Development at the Seven Bucks Productions Company that is owned by The Rock

and Danny Garcia, The Rock, of course, being Dwayne Johnson. He has had an amazing career and he has had an amazing impact on the wrestling business. And he's got stories for days. And he has a new book out right now called There's Just One Problem, True Tales from the Former One-Time Seventh Most Powerful Person in WWE. It's a really great read. It's out right now for pre-order,

and it's available to the public on August 16th. I can't recommend it enough. I couldn't get enough of it. It was like eating candy. If you're a longtime fan of the sport, of the business, you'll love it. Even if you're not, it's just a really interesting look and a rare look at what it means to be a writer for WWE during a really interesting time in the company's history. So we had an opportunity to talk to him about his career, about those stories, about Vince McMahon retiring and leaving the company and whether he ever

thought he'd see that day. And so there was just a lot to discuss with Brian Gowertz. I could have talked to this guy for three hours. Alas, here's an hour and maybe we'll do it again soon. I loved every second of it and I think you will as well. All right, without further ado, here's my with Brian Gortz. Enjoy. This is a very exciting one for me. I have wanted to talk to this man for quite some time. I've been in a room with him once, many, many moons ago, almost two decades ago. I have admired his work from afar for two decades plus. He's a man that most hardcore pro wrestling fans have heard of, probably don't know what he looks like. And he has been involved in some of the biggest stories in the history of pro wrestling. He's a very influential guy. He would say at one time he was the seventh most important person in pro wrestling. And he has a new book that is out right now that I cannot

recommend enough. It is out August 16th. It's available right now to pre-order Amazon, all the places where you get your books. It's called There's Just One Problem. Here it is right over there. It's written by the great Brian Gowertz, who at one time was the head writer for WWE. He started with the company back in 1999, went all the way up until 2015. Now, of course, I believe senior vice president of development, if I got that correctly, for the Seven Bucks Production Company, led by the great Dwayne Johnson. He's a man of many talents. It's a great honor to say hello to him here on the program. Brian, thank you for doing this.

Ariel, thank you so much. What an introduction. My God, I've never experienced anything like that before. That was amazing. I think we should just wrap it up. I mean, I don't know if we can get- You said the same thing to Peter Rosenberg like a day ago, just for the record.

So I do appreciate it. Is that true? No, I'm kidding. I'm just joking. Oh, okay. I don't remember that introduction being as grandiose and all-encompassing. Well, it comes from the heart.

It is the truth. And in fact, I think I told you this privately, but I'll say it for the sake of this conversation as well i went to new house as well we actually have a lot in common i feel like we're somewhat kindred spirits you're a hardcore uh bills fan as am i lifelong bills fan you're a hardcore nicks fan as am i and i know no one listening or watching this wants to hear us talk about the bills or the nicks but i feel like we could do six hours just on those two teams unfortunately Unfortunately, I'm not a Mets fan like you, Expos fan, now Blue Jays fan, but love pro wrestling as well. And you went to Syracuse, you went to Newhouse, I went to Newhouse, and I'll

never forget, it's either 03 or 04, and you may remember better than I, I saw a poster on the wall at Newhouse saying that Brian Gewirtz was going to come talk to the students, and I couldn't have been more excited. I had gone to see Sean McDonough, Mike Tirico, Bob Costas. I was way more excited to go talk to the writer from WWE who was a Newhouse grad. And I was sitting there among maybe like 40 or 50 kids. And I didn't want it to end. Do you remember going to Newhouse there talking to the students? Oh, yeah. That's amazing. I didn't even realize that. You didn't know that I was there? No. Oh, wow. I thought I told you. Yeah. I was, I was one of those kids. I went. Oh wow. No, I don't know if you did, but, but either way, that's amazing. Yeah. I was there

not on behalf of the university, on behalf of the student TV station. You know, it was, I think when I was there, it was UU TV. It became Citrus TV. Right. I was, it's funny. I was there, my friend, John Beck, who I graduated with, who's a writer out in Hollywood, has written on many shows, creator of Live and Maddie. We had actually something planned. We were going to do it. He was going to attack me with a steel chair. It's something he really wanted to do in the middle of the presentation. And then like we just were reading the room as I was talking and we just kind of made eye contact. And there was this, this, you know, the benefit of knowing someone for so long since college, we just like, all we had to do was just give one look

without even any other facial movements. And we just called it off with our eyes because we realized for whatever reason that would not have gone over very well in that setting. So we scrapped the plan run and Trish Stratus called me in the middle of talking. I remember that and answering the phone in the middle of the, in the middle of the, whatever the Q and A presentation that's been so far. And hopefully this will change. That's literally the only time I've been back to Syracuse at one time in 2004, since I graduated in 95. Wow. That is actually another thing we have in common. I actually hated my time at Syracuse so

much so that when I left, I said, I will never come back here unless I'm one of those guys like Brian that they asked to come back. I thought Newhouse asked you to come back or like Acostas or someone. And then in 2014, they asked me to come back. And that's the only time they asked me to come speak to the students. And it was the only time that I've ever been back. So I too, I graduated in 04. So that same year, but that's the only time that I've ever been back as well. I believe your experience there was a lot more positive than mine. You loved it, right? Yeah, yeah, I had a really good time there. It's you know, in the, you know, our football team was good back then.

We were like, it was right before McNabb. But it was, yeah, it was fun. It was kind of cold, but it was good. My other connection to you, and then we'll get into the meat and potatoes, but I do feel the need to bring this up. In 06, so I got into TV production when I graduated in 04. And I worked for a bunch of different places. And then I ended up working for a production company that was doing work for Spike TV. And this is when TNA Impact was just launching. And so they sent me down to Orlando a couple times to work on a couple of shows, like a pre-show for an Impact event, headlined by Kurt

Angle and Samoa Joe and some other stuff. And for whatever reason, I ended up really, I don't know, striking this amazing relationship with Kurt Angle. And I would be the guy who would pick him up from the hotel, bring him to the shoot, bring him back. He would call me. We would stay on the phone for two, three hours. This is like 06, 07, so post-WWE. And I will never forget one time in the car, he said that I reminded him of you. And I think it was like the Syracuse thing, the Jewish thing, the sense of humor thing. And I couldn't believe that someone would say like, because to me, like you were this fictitious, like, who's this Brian Gowertz that I keep reading about in the Observer on the internet. And I just thought that that was an amazing, you know, compliment. Come

to find out in the book, you had an incredible relationship with Kurt as well. So I thought that you would appreciate that, that he had said that to me all those years. Oh, yeah, no, that's, that's really cool. Yeah. Kurt was the best. I mean, we basically, you know, couldn't come from two more different backgrounds. Um, you know, I, as, as I didn't want to brag in the book, I mean, I'll say it here. I was on the high school bowling team for half a season, my senior year before I got hurt, which is true. I somehow tore ligaments in my thumb. I don't think it was bowling. I think I was playing basketball, but it affected

the bowling. He was, I don't know, an Olympic gold medalist or something. So we both have athletic backgrounds, but very, very different ones. And he debuted Survivor Series 99, which was my third week in the company. So even you know, even though he had, you know, been training and doing dark matches and, and, you know, been in the business for a little bit, we really came up together in WWE, you know, uh, November of 99 that year. So we grew, we grew really close. Um, and it's really cool that he said that. Um, so again, I love the book that, that does it for my, uh, Chris Farley, you know, like with Paul McCartney. Remember that time you were in the Beatles? That was great.

I think fans have wanted to get a book like this, wanted you to write a book like this for so many years. Obviously, when you're working for the company, it's tough. Why did you feel like now is the right time? And for those that don't know, I have the luxury of reading the book already. This isn't like one of those books where it's like you for the first three chapters are talking about growing up on Long Island. Like you get right into it. The first chapter is you right in the thick of things,

wrestler court, all that stuff. So you give us the good stuff from beginning to end. Why did you feel like this was the right time to do this? Thanks. Well, yeah, I mean, well, first of all, yeah, I don't have the benefit of like people being patient enough to sit through the early formative years. You know, it's kind of like writing a TV show. You need to, you need to have a hot start and really, you know, draw people in and then hopefully they'll continue to read it. You know, I don't know if people even browse in bookstores anymore, but, you know, either way, I still wanted to have, you know, I didn't want to

bore people with this origin story. I'll bore them later in chapter two or three, but at least for chapter one, you know, really set bore them later in chapter two or three, but at least for chapter one, you know, really set the stage and do something, you know, tell an exciting story. You know, I just felt, you know, for the longest time, you know, the WWE policy is for writers to be, it's not even seen or not, neither seen nor heard, just basically do your job and do your job in the trenches and do your job in the trenches and do your job in the company. And it's not about you, which I wholeheartedly agree with. I, you know, it never was, I never considered doing anything like this, whether it's writing a book,

doing an interview, a podcast, whatever, while I was in WWE, first of all, we had too much work to do. And secondly, unless it was WWE who set it up, it's not something they encourage nor want. So when it was all over, that's when I started like dipping my toe in a little bit into the space of like, well, I have this like reserve of 16 years of stories. And if you don't have enough material for a book with 16 years of stories you know at wwe then you know what are you even doing so i first you know chris jericho approached me about being on a talk as jericho um back in whatever it was 2014 15 i was like uh should i uh okay and then i did that and then i did like an edging christian but i was doing it with all my friends people who

i knew and knew for years and you know what it was It was okay. It didn't, it didn't like, it's like, oh, that was actually kind of fun, surprisingly fun. And then next thing you know, like WWE is calling not to say, what are you doing going on podcasts, but saying, hey, those were good podcasts. Do you mind coming in and being a talking head on the Ruthless Aggression series? So I was like, OK, that's another thing I could do. Sure. And I did that. And then, you know, at one point, this was like during the pandemic, I was talking to some people at WWE Network and they were talking about like, oh, maybe is there like a Zoom series that you and Bruce Prichard can do together to that, that era from like 2000 to 2010 and beyond. And I was like, you know, that could be fun, but it's not really me. And I was talking to Dwayne and Danny Garcia about it too. It's like, it's not, it's not like really my bag. I'm much

more comfortable just writing than, you know, like doing something so, you know, regular permanent as like, you know, going on, to bruce and that kind of thing so i approached them with the idea of like what if and again this is like in in march of 2020 where you know there was you know sports on tv you know everyone was basically staying home anyway um especially like on the weekends and stuff like that so it seemed like an opportune time like what if i tried this? What the hell, what do I have to lose? And they were very supportive Dwayne and Danny were. And that's, you know,

like anything, if you want something to be successful, you just really, truly, no matter how hard it gets, just have to commit to it. So, you know, I made the commitment of like, this is going to be, we're making a chapter a week for whatever it is, 18, 20 weeks. I don't care how terrible it is. I don't care. I'm going to go off on the assumption that nobody is ever going to see this and no one's ever going to read it except myself.

So I could just go out there, say whatever I want. I'll obviously go back to it and do a lot of rewrites. And when the time is right, you know, present it and hopefully someone will want to publish it. But that was kind of the mindset. And it also helped, you know, take your mind off of what was going on in the world in March and April of 2020. So much, you know, with the pandemic and everything, I had family members affected by it. It was just good to, you know, I'm just going to sit down with this computer and just kind of relive all these crazy tales from my WWE experience. So it was fortuitous in terms of being able to have the time to do that.

The only thing fortuitous about that period of time, but it all worked out. Again, very rare to get a book like this and to get this type of insight. What was the toughest story to tell? Like one that you were like, i don't know about this one this might and one thing i appreciated uh you weren't like throwing mud i mean you you were honest but it's not like you're telling the deep dark secrets of your time with the mcmahon family like it was all at least from my perspective you're not talking about me but it seemed very respectful you told the good the bad and the ugly but it wasn't you know salacious or disrespectful that said, I'm certain that there are things happening that maybe initially you thought you would never tell anyone.

Was there something in particular that you really struggled about and then ultimately decided to put in? Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you for that. And second, yeah, I never had any intention of writing like a, ha-ha, now I'm going to nail him type of book because that just wasn't my experience. I had a, you know, pretty much a positive experience overall. There were plenty of times. I literally one time I got off a conference call and made a hole in my apartment wall, throwing something in anger and frustration and stuff like that. There were plenty of times where, you know, on both sides

of the fence, it was like, we're reaching a tipping point here, but we bent, we never broke. So I wanted to, you know, tell a book because we've seen books like that. We've seen books where people are just like either airing dirty laundry or just retelling a negative experience. And I'm not like condemning books like that. It's like everyone has their own tale to tell and own experience. But my experience was mainly positive. But like you said, there were ups and downs. So for me, it was probably... Some of these stories I had told in some respects on those aforementioned podcasts years and years ago, I had never told the story of, you know, the, basically the, the low point, the nadir of my relationship with Vince, when we got into a big argument stemming from, uh, stemming from, uh, as I call it in the chapter, the Dwayne Wade episode,

um, incident incident, right. Yeah. Where I had like written a kind of a cheap heat line for the Miz, uh, for him being a Cleveland guy, and they were in Miami for Survivor Series. And Vince didn't know who Dwayne Wade was. And he blew up at me in the production meeting. And it was just a really, really, you know, for that period of time be truthful, you know, in terms of the book to leave this out. This is kind of a major part of what led to me, you know, ultimately rec, different, not necessarily accurate ways in which that transition had been actually how that went down. So I'm like, you know what, why not just like set the record straight? Because in the end, it all came back and it all worked out, you know, absence makes the heart grow fonder. And, you know, as I write, even though we had hit a low point, including a particularly tense exchange that I'm sure, you know, as I write, even though we had hit a low point, including a particularly tense exchange that I'm sure, you know, you may recall from the book, you know,

ultimately, we stuck it, we stuck it out. And ultimately, it was like, God, you know, I kind of appreciate there was a mutual appreciation for each other to the point where when we finally when I finally left my last day, you know, it was a big, big hug and really a feel good moment. Whereas if I had left the company after that episode in 2012, um, you know, it would have been, I had left a much, much more sour taste in my mouth. Could you possibly describe, so you start with the company in November of 99. Um, as you tell in the book, you did a few, and I remember these SummerSlam specials for MTV

back when the company was super hot. You're kind of floundering as a TV writer in Hollywood. Your sister's an intern for MTV. She tells, hey, you're a wrestling fan, why don't you come do this? And you hit it off with the likes of The Rock and Mick Foley, and

then you get this opportunity. I'm not trying to give away everything here, but they offer you the WWE.com job. You say thanks but no thanks and then when Vince Russo leaves, you get the opportunity. And this is the height, Vince Russo and Ed Ferrer, of course. I mean, this is the height of the Attitude Era. This is 99.

The company is on fire and you're a fan, right? You grew up a fan. I mean, you went to a bunch of WrestleManias. You're sitting in the last row. Do and you're a fan right you grew up a fan um i mean you went to a bunch of wrestlemania's you're sitting in the last row do you ever have a moment you're riding around with the man families do you recall the moment where you're like i can't because i feel like i've had these moments throughout my life now you know i'm 40 years old where i'm like i can't but like if you would have told me when i was 12 that i'd be doing x y and z i never would have believed that did you recall having those moments when you're riding around in their limo and you're backstage when you're going over stuff with these like large

in the life icons? How did you deal with that? Well, first of all, yeah. I mean, basically immediately because, you know, my first night in the company, you know, it was a raw, it was a raw in Washington, DC. And afterwards it was smackdown you know smackdown was not live back then we would drive from you know wherever we were on raw in this case dc and then we drive down to philadelphia and i had no idea like how we get there or what what is the process and it would be much much different now first of all there's a corporate jet secondly you know i don't think the writers would be writing with the McMahon family, but that literally that first night after that first raw, I'm asking Stephanie, who was kind of like my liaison to, you know, asking any

question, just, just ask her. Um, and she's like, oh yeah, um, you were driving to Philly, Vincent writing shotgun, Shane driving me and Steph and the other writer at the time, Tommy Blacha, all in the backseat for however long it takes to get from Washington to Philly. So that's really when it hit me because I literally left my apartment that had an inflatable WWF beach chair as well a, like a stone cold bop bag, like boxing thing as I was like all hip 26 year olds living in LA at the time had. Um, and all of a sudden, like I'm sitting in the back of a SUV with just, you know, one other regular quote unquote person and the three McMahons, um, you know, and that's kind of like right off the bat where it hit me, like what the hell is happening? I literally dressed up as mankind for Halloween two weeks earlier. Uh, now I'm driving with the McMahons on the way

to Philly to do SmackDown. Um, that night, it's just kind of crazy. What I always heard was they didn't want marks they didn't want fans and yet you just you paint a picture of being like an uber fan so was that not true well first i mean first of all again so many different circumstances um like at the time like when when vince russo and ed ferrara left they literally had no writers right and smackdown had just started so you're looking at five and Sunday Night Heat still existed. So you're looking at five to eight hours of TV a week with nobody to write it. And it's not even so much writing the shows.

That's a major part of it. But it's also, you know, producing the backstage, you know, what you see, you know, the stuff that goes on backstage and the in-ring promos um it was so basic back then tommy and i would just walk around with big yellow notepads and just walk up to various wrestlers and like you need help on a promo no you're good okay or oh you want me to work on something okay what do you think of this like there was it was so you know version 1.0 back then. You know, they really, you know, it wasn't like they had like, well, we'll look over your resume and get back to you. I mean, they needed people right away, A. And B, you know, I had worked, you know, so I'd worked in Hollywood for four and a half years.

I'd written on three shows. I had been, you know, in the, in the trenches on sets and everything. So I think there's, you know, how to handle yourself in a certain way. So even though like internally, I'm like, Holy crap, I'm writing with the McMahons and I have inflatable furniture of WWF origin in my apartment. I'm not freaking out. You got to handle yourself like a professional. And they actually, when Stephanie

first gave me the tour backstage and I said something like, I don't remember exactly what I said. I said something like, Hey, I'm just glad you're not sacrificed to the undertaker or something like that. Something incredibly dumb, but she smiled and was like, Oh, you're a fan. Oh, good. Thank goodness. Because you could be one of the best television writers in the business. If you're going into that machine with no knowledge at all of the characters, of the wrestlers, of the history, of the product, you've really got an uphill battle. It's not impossible, but it's really, really difficult.

So I'm obviously, I'm like a big fan, but it was never my dream to write at WWE. It was always to write for sitcoms and stuff. So I'm not like freaking out or anything like that. I'm not like, oh my God, can I get an autograph in case this gig doesn't work out? It's like, you gotta treat the job with a certain level of professionalism and everything.

So yeah, it was a little dichotomy of like being a huge fan, but also not treating it as such while you're there. It's fascinating to read you write about Vince McMahon because he's obviously one of the most successful promoters in the history of entertainment combat sports. A very intimidating, imposing figure right from afar. And you're, from the get-go, sparring with him sometimes. You're challenging him. He's challenging you.

Very interesting relationship, and it culminates with a great moment, as you alluded to, when you left the company, which was really, really nice. I'm not going to spoil it, but a really interesting look at him. Could you even begin to describe, I mean, 15 years working for Vince McMahon,

how would you describe it? How would you put it into words? Yeah, it was very, very never boring, obviously. Sometimes intense, sometimes a lot of fun, sometimes frustrating. You know, you really run the gamut of emotions, you know, when working there because Vince expects you to be, you know, on call. You know, I didn't get many three o'clock in the morning calls or anything like that, but I get calls on the weekends a lot. You know, wanting, you know,

wanting to go over the show or talking about a specific angle, especially in the beginning as later on, especially as like you started having grandchildren and everything else that kind of receded a bit and we just do it the day of, but yeah, it's it was a really, you know, there's nobody like him obviously. And there's a lot of like, you know, alpha qualities to him that, you know, he treats every day. Like it's a, you know, it's like the biggest, you know, it's a challenge and how am i going to conquer this day this this show this promo segment this board meeting you know whatever it is you know and there's there's a especially for someone like me that is not gregarious and is not very bombastic and would

rather just you know recede into the shadows rather than strut out with the Mr. McMahon walk. It was a lot of learning and, and, you know, kind of taking it all in and trying to apply the, the positive life lessons, you know, of Ben's to everyday life because he's, you know, one of those guys where like, if there's a goal to be had, you know, he doesn't, he doesn't fear it. He like fear. It does not really enter his vocabulary. Even if, even if he secretly does, he's not going to outwardly show it.

So it's like start a football league that could potentially flop and go down in history as epically terrible. I don't care. Yeah, let's do it. I, you know, as he said in interviews before, like if I fail and brush myself off and try it again, you know, whatever it is. And there's a lot of like admirable stuff to that. There's also a lot of like impulsiveness and like, well, you know, maybe we should wait three weeks and map out this angle. It's like, no, let's do it tonight or we're never going to do it. OK, let's see. I mean, that's as I get in the book, that's kind of how Katie Vick and that, you know, to take a the bad version of that mindset could be.

It's like, all right, we're going to end the show and Triple H is going to accuse Kane of being a murderer. Like, oh, wow. OK, so what do you have in mind for that? How the hell should I know? You guys are the writers. you guys figure it out. And we're starting it this Monday. Okay. So yeah, like I said, it never, never boring. But there was a lot to, you know, a lot to absorb, a lot to take in, a lot to parse. And, you know, it was unforgettable. If I may, I just wanted to read like two lines from the book to you and get your reaction to them if I could. This is from chapter 10 entitled Vince Life Lessons and Survival Tips. And you write, quote, there is no one more passionate about WWE than Vince McMahon.

It would be quite easy for him to have passed the baton by now and called it a career, but he's not going to do that. Not now, not ever. That's obviously an incredible line to read given the current state of things. And so I'm wondering twofold, could you tell me what your reaction was when you found out that he was, quote unquote, retiring? obviously, to be entrenched so deep into a company and a culture and individuals. And then all of a sudden, you're just not there anymore. And believe it or not, it feels like I just left Washington, D.C. Washington, D.C. was my first show, and it was also my last show in July of 2015. But now we're talking like seven years have gone by, which is a lot, is a long time. So it definitely is kind of like, you know, you're taking almost a step out of out of body experience. And it doesn't really, it seems very surreal to read and see that happen. And obviously, I can't speak to anyone's experience other than my own, but it was surprising. But it also was, you know, for me, from just the creative writer mindset of the WWE creative team, I was like, this is going to be really, really interesting now in terms of, you know, where the shows go from here and the direction the the idea of certain things that were you know verboten or not really allowed

or what have you in the past seeing those things maybe come to light now or seeing uh you know a different style and a different way of storytelling because sometimes you get so in the bubble and so tunnel vision in one specific way of doing things that when a new, you know, essentially head writer, head of creative is installed, it can't help but be interesting. And the key is to sustain it. But as I've always said, you know, WWE and Vince himself has kind of instilled this sense of if someone goes down, no person is basically no person is greater than the company. So when Austin, you know, had to have surgery in 1999, that was like my first month in the company. It was like next man up. Like we, obviously Steve's the greatest of all time and we are hoping and praying and fingers crossed that he

comes back. But in the case he doesn't, someone's got to step up to the table. And then several people did back then, you know, same thing with me when Russo and Ferrara left, it's got to step up to the table. And then several people did back then, you know, same thing with me when Russo and Ferrara left, it's like, okay, trial by fire, you've got to step up and you've got to come to with goods and be able to deliver. Otherwise we'll find someone else. And it's like that with any, you know, any talent, any backstage person, anyone in the corporate boardroom, it's like WWE doesn't really wallow in self-pity and rest on its laurels and say, well, we're going to go through a growth period and there'll be ups and downs. And, um, but look at how good we were back in, you know, 2000,

whatever. It's like, no, we have a show, the most important show it's cliche, but the most important show is this week show. And we've got to step up and come to the plate and i think so far based on what i've seen that's exactly what's happening um the shows do have an air of like oh there's like a fresh car smell to this and it certainly helps you know triple h being the head of creative as far as the nxt talent that you know no matter how much you know as a uh how much, you know, as a, you know, if you're ahead of creative and you don't know what they've done in NXT, it's just going to be hard to really write to their strengths unless you have the patience to go watch it or explain it.

But otherwise, if you're just saying, well, that was NXT. Now we're going to start from scratch. You know, that's been met with different varying levels of success or in some cases lack of success. So the fact that Triple H is so familiar with a lot of the NXT talent and knows their strengths and knows how to present them, that's really a boon to, I think, Raw and SmackDown when you see these talents debut. And I'm kind of excited to see how it goes forward because there's definitely something different going on. So just curious, from a book perspective, did you consider editing anything, changing anything once that news came out or was it too late? Well, I think it was too late, but also it really wouldn't have mattered anyway, I don't think. Because like I said, I can only speak to my experience and my experience, you know,

essentially officially ended in 2015 with, you know, occasional pop-ins like when the rock pops in, I'll be there with them or going to do, you know, an interview for Ruthless Aggression or stopping by backstage, you know, if, if the show is at the garden or in Brooklyn or something like that. And I'm around, you know, and it's, you know, it's, Hey, how are you? Boy, you guys look stressed out. Anyways, I'll be in the back. So, you know, because the book is speaking to my experience and my experience, you know, has a finite amount of time in terms of my employment there. It really wasn't, you know, as far as, you know, the very narrow scope vision of how this all relates to this particular book, it didn't really affect it at all.

Okay, fair enough. Just curious. Can I ask you about a few things over time that you were a part of that just as a longtime viewer, I was always curious about? I was in attendance in Albany with my friends. We did a road trip, No Mercy 2000. We loved Kurt Angle. It was Kurt Angle versus Rock, and we wanted to see Kurt Angle finally win the WWF Championship. One of the big angles on that card was

Rikishi being revealed as the guy who hit Stone Cold. Was that always the plan, or was that something that happened over time? Because it always kind of felt a little flat if I do say so myself that Rikishi, and it didn't really feel like a real thing because he wasn't really that big of a deal back when it happened. You know what I'm saying um let's see how do I put this

the the the amount of people who were gonna freaking run over Stone Cold Steve Austin at some point um you know you could you could fill a jury with them um have alternates. It was a lot, a lot of people. And it kept switching. It was kind of hot potato. I remember at one point Vince looked at me, I forget what, whatever, what day it was. And he just looked at me and was like, Taz, you know, like at one point it was going to be Taz. Okay, great. Let's make it Taz. And then, you know, for whatever reason, the next week, it's someone different. But yeah, I mean, it was it was a it was a Yeah, I wouldn't call that

necessarily a success or Kishi is, you know, a Hall of Fame performer, but he's just likable and a natural baby face and people want to like him. So I think it was sometimes you just don't know until you try. And then ultimately, it was like was rakishi but triple h was behind it all along and you know it went back to the natural order of things i remember that show specifically no mercy 2000 because i'm running around i think i was doing i think correct me if i'm wrong it was like there was edging christian as the conquistadors against the hardys and i'm producing all these backstage things with edge and Christian in these outfits. And then the Brooklyn brawler who, you know, worked backstage runs up to me and goes, Brian, you won't believe it. Clemens just threw a bat at Piazza. This was there in the 2000 world that I'm just like, no, Steve Clemens did not throw a bat at Piazza. I'm telling you. And then

I was like, okay, excuse me, Edge, Chris, one sec. And I ran into the TV production room where the game was on and was like, oh, my God. Guys, we need to get this vignette done now. I've got to watch this. But, yeah, it was really cool to see Kurt win. And it was not so cool to see that who ran over Stone Cold Angle play out. March 20, 2001, Invasion, WCW. It was so exciting when Vince cuts the promo, Panama City, he's on Nitro. The possibilities are endless, right?

There's a million different possibilities. Why did it fail? I went to WWF New York to watch Invasion. That's how big of a loser I was. I went by myself. My family was on vacation. And I'm like, I got to watch this. This is incredible.

All these people. Ultimately, why did this never work out? Why did the Invasion angle not work out? Yeah, the whole thing. Yeah. Why? What did you do? No, no.

No, I just wanted to restate. Oh, yes. Yeah. Maybe my lack of success with the opposite sex in 2001. No, I meant Invasion. Invasion. Why did it fail? Well, first of all, first of all, let me let me state the positives from that. The positives were, well, that show in and of itself is kind of a time capsule show that is, you know, pretty amazing when you watch it back and being a part of it, too.

And the first pay-per-view, the invasion pay-per-view did massive, massive numbers. Okay. That's the positive and we're done. So the, the negatives, um, is I think really simple as far as, um, well, it's, it's twofold. The number one thing in my my opinion, was you didn't get what you were expecting and hoping for because WCW folds and WWE buys it. And initially, all these people who would eventually come, you know, from a fan standpoint, you wanted them to come in 2001. You wanted to see Hogan and Goldberg and Flair and Bischoff and Nash and Hall and Steiner, you know, and Sting. And like so many, like if you had that play set, you know, at your disposal to be able to book these dream matches, that's what everybody wanted, you know, and it's well-documented.

They had guaranteed contracts. Vince would either have to buy them out and then set up new contracts or whatever it was. There was really no financial incentive for, oh, and Hogan, obviously, for them to, like, I could come or I could just collect a gigantic paycheck without working and then come eventually on my terms. You know, that's a simplified version of it, but that was what we had. So, you know, we had some great talents, obviously, in Booker T, DDP, and some others, but none of the heavy hitters that people had come expected to. So there was a sense, and I remember, you know, there was a lot of meetings about it. And, you know, there's this idea that like well vince can't possibly have wcw guys beat wwe guys

because you know it would make the company look bad i think it was you know at the time you know and you could cite faulty logic and hindsight or you know the old axiom would they would have believed it if they saw it but i I think there was a sense of like, if we're having a quote-unquote mid-card WCW talent all of a sudden become a world beater and beat The Rock and Stone Cold and that kind of thing, people will think, oh, you're forcing it and it's not very believable.

It's sort of a no-win proposition because you do that, okay, maybe some people might think that. I don't know. Maybe they would believe it. Maybe very believable. It's sort of a no-win proposition because you do that. Okay. So maybe some people might think that, I don't know, maybe they would believe it. Maybe they wouldn't. If you go the opposite route and WWE is just steamrolling over the WCW talents, then what are you really accomplishing? And that's ultimately, you know, the lesser of many evils, I guess, how it rolled, but not before, you know, the, the, the thought was, well, look, nobody is going to buy like, you know, the, the, the thought was, well, look, nobody is going to buy like, you know, these, and I'm not going to single anybody out because there's nothing to do

with the talents, just the way they were positioned and coming in, you know, who were the top stars and who weren't, um, this WCW dominance over WWE and in these current forms, again, if you had all the players, it would be completely different. Um, so we've got to do something. And that led to kind of a watering down of the invasion out of necessity with steve turning heel steve austin then leading the invasion which never felt right um and combining with ecw so you had ecw and then ultimately you know wwe guys who were firmly entrenched as wwe guys but had some of them had ties to wcw or ec, like the Dudleys. I believe Christian was in the Alliance at one point for some reason. There was like all of this, you know,

it got to the point now in order to kind of quote unquote, make the sides balanced. And even then it still wasn't balanced. Where as a fan, you're watching it and going, what is this? This is like the quote unquote B squad versus WWE. And it's not particularly good. It's getting repetitive. It's like getting, you know, and I don't remember, you know, this was like 22 years ago. So I don't remember every show. I'm sure there were some like positive, cool, holy shit moments.

If I'm allowed to say that. But, you know, as a positive, cool, holy shit moments, if I'm allowed to say that. But, you know, as a whole, like, yeah, we you mean, your question is, why did it fail? I don't think anyone is hearing that question going, Oh, wait a second, I personally liked it. You know, there might be a handful of people who liked individual moments, or individual matches or promos or something like that. But it was, you know, in hindsight, it's easy to say in hindsight, but in hindsight, it was kind of doomed from the start. It's like you took the, what was in front of you, which is we can get a huge, huge pay-per-view buy

with some sort of invasion angle, WCW and ECW versus WWE. You know, again, and obviously, and Rob Van Dam too on the ECW side, he was a star that emerged and it was, you know, that part of it was great. And his interaction with Stone Cold was great. Steve was doing everything in his power to make it work

and make it work as the heel leader. You know, and I don't know, I think I wrote about it in the book, but, you know, I threw out the Kurt Angle spraying him with milk. I mean, that's a cool moment that worked and Kurt was awesome in it. But as a whole, yes.

Like without that balance, like you can't have a success. The fans will see through it and they did. And then the irony of course, is that ultimately everybody eventually came over anyway. But if you waited, and I know this was talked about too,

if you waited for like, with no guarantees that anyone was going to come because it still needed to be negotiated, that eventually we'll get Goldberg and eventually we'll get the NWO and we'll get Flair and Bischoff and everyone else, and then we'll do it right. Well, then two years would have passed since the purchase, and it's kind of like the moment is gone. So there are a lot of things stacked up against it. And yeah, I would say it was not a success, even though there were individual parts that were, you know, very memorable. The best stories, as you know, are the ones that feel real, right? That like you watch them and you're like, oh, is this a work? Is this a shoot?

The chapter on Rock and Sina from the book is just absolutely amazing like incredibly riveting and uh very appreciative that you took us in and honestly i didn't realize how real it was and so i would urge everyone to read to the end because it's maybe one of the best chapters in the book um but i was always wondering you don't really touch on this in the book so i'll ask it here uh could you tell me about june June of 2011 in Las Vegas, the pipe bomb promo, the CM Punk pipe bomb promo? Because to me, that felt very real, right? Like he breaks the fourth wall. He says hi to Cole Cabana. I know that was towards the end of your time there. They cut off the microphone. How much of that, like, what kind of, was that all just a work?

Was it all just, you know, a good time? Or how much tension? Because the story was his contract was coming up. He was going to leave. I'm'm not like 100 foolish and thinking that the whole thing was a shoot but it did feel very real was there any elements of that to it well i mean the real elements of that was you know cm punk's contract was coming up and there were you know backstage tensions you know in terms of performer and management and you you know, not knowing whether Punk was going to resign or not resign. But in terms of the actual segment itself, you know, that was, you know, whether you want to call it a worked shoot or what have you, you know, that was something obviously, you know, Vince and the company knew that we had it scheduled in segment 11 for coming from punk's heart and and his brain um

but at the same time too i know that they i know going into it there wasn't anything he said or was gonna say that was you know unless he improvised some of it on the spot but i know like vince and everyone had a version of it you know in front of them and knew what was knew when to cut the mic knew when to you know cut the scene in the ring selling um and it was yeah it was you know it was part of a television show to be sure but to your point there were real life overtones to it and real life passion into it it wasn't like you know punk cut the promo the mic went out and then he's giving hugs everybody backstage going oh oh, this is great. I can't wait till next year.

No, there was, it was palpable, the tension and the realness. And it's, you know, testament to Punk to pull that off so well and have people questioning to this day, like, what the hell was going on? And it's a testament to Vince, too, to say, yeah, say it. I don't care. Do what you gotta do uh call me an imbecile you know whatever um and i'm sure there were plenty of lines within that that punk you know kind of improvised on the spot but at the same time we knew going in like this is what it was going to be and it was going to get people talking so it really that was a great example

of something just coming together um and it couldn't have been executed any better i'm putting putting you on the spot here. But does anything come to mind in terms of the story that you fought for an angle, a storyline that you fought for, that for whatever reason didn't come to fruition that you felt in your heart, this would be a huge, huge deal. And you fought for it. You threw your phone against the wall. And you ultimately got, you know, vetoed. Is there anyone that like a hill that you were dying on that ultimately never saw the light of day? Oh, man. You know, first of all, like there was some feeling like that basically every week. Okay.

So it's hard to pinpoint, you know, a lot of I'm trying to think. You know, there are various degrees. I was lucky. A lot of the stuff that I wanted to happen did happen. I always felt like Rock and Hogan should have went last at WrestleMania 18. I felt like title matches happen every WrestleMania, every title. And going in, we knew like this iteration of Jericho Triple H with Steph in Jericho's corner. Yes, it's the title match, but we just knew going in it did not have the same electricity and heat. So I know like pushing for that match to to end WrestleMania 18 was something I was advocating.

But it's you know, it's the little things you remember. You know, I remember wanting to take characters from the gimmick battle Royal of WrestleMania 17 and putting them on the show in some capacity the next day and fighting with Paul Heyman. I had this idea for like, you know, those on the way to the ring shots of people walking. I want to, I just, the kid in me, the nostalgia in me wanted like a chic and volkoff on the way to the ring with the raw music playing and for whatever reason paul was like so adamantly against that you know whatever we're taking a step backwards not forwards i'm like it's nostalgia you know

and coming to blows over the stupidest stuff um but it was yeah i was like and we ended up not doing it i don't think we ended up doing it um, I got, it was so much fun to like work with, you know, Regal and Kamala and like all this type of stuff in the WrestleMania 17, you know, within the pay-per-view, uh, that gimmick battle Royal as a fan, um, was so much fun. I just, you know, the nostalgia elements, the pangs, it really hit me. I wanted to have more of it. Um, and I know this isn't the, like I wanted to me i wanted to have more of it um and i know this isn't the like i wanted to make so and so champion and almost did it in 2002 you know i'll

think of that probably as soon as this interview is done um but yeah it is i definitely um and again this was when when the idea of roddy you know who hero, Roddy Piper, who I have all chapter on, and the debate whether or not for him to do the run-in in WrestleMania 19. I never advocated so strongly for something, I don't think, in my life. Just from the pure, like, oh my God, sitting in the crowd watching that match between Mr. McMahon and Hogan. If Roddy did a run run in that nobody knew about, that would be the most incredible thing I'd ever seen in my life. And there were a lot of people, you know, who were against it. Like, no, the focus spotlight should be on McMahon and Hogan.

He'd take away from that, you know, again, not like screw Roddy. We don't want him, but just like for telling of the story, I was like, it doesn't matter. Yeah, it will enhance it. Believe it or not, it will make it even better. I remember advocating, you know, I doesn't matter. Yeah. It will enhance it. Believe it or not. It will make it even better. Um, I remember advocating, you know, very strongly for that. Was John Cena ever close to turning heel? Yeah. You know, it's, that's been asked. Um, the answer is yes. I would say like, all right, let me, let me backtrack. Yes. And no. Okay.

And what I mean by that is you know when half the crowd is booing them anyway um and you know i got into trouble on twitter once as far as explaining you know the reasons why the crowd is booing cena i was trying to be glib um and have a uh cousin sal like um a sarcastic retort uh i said because he was you know this he, this, he was, I don't know, kind to children and didn't think twice of it. And one of the reasons I wrote that is because the original tweet I wanted to say was about the time he wrote JBL is poopy on the side of JBL's limo. And somehow I got heat for it online, but the tweet was too long. So I didn't think twice of it. And then, yeah, their reaction to that. It's like, why are you rewriting history?

What is wrong with you? You suck. I'm'm like it was a joke i don't know um the the you know cena was being booed and he was being booed i think you know the real reason i think was more symbolic of the fact that he was you know in a time where vince and wwe WWE was turning PG and trying to be more kid friendly, he was the face of the company, which meant he was going over. He was the new Hogan as far as like being somewhat argue shoved down people's throats and being like, oh, my God, can we please have some variety here? It's the same thing. John gets his ass kicked. John makes the comeback. Super Cena wins. It's like we've especially lapsed and attitude era fans wanting to see something new and edgy it was kind of the antithesis um even further when you consider that cena started as a heel and was you know very edgy with his raps um and and was like oh that's

a really cool character i can get into and now it's like you know never give up never quit is like the 2006 equivalent of say your prayers and eat your vitamins um and yeah it's like you know never give up never quit is like the 2006 equivalent of say your prayers and eat your vitamins um and yeah it's it's a bit much it was like you know you could argue about his work great you could argue about his um you know the repetitive as matches or what have you i thought he was a great worker and evolved into a great worker and nobody worked harder than john to get better um but yeah i think he was kind of symbolic of, you know, the, the WWE going soft, going PG and being kind of like the only option on the menu when you're craving more options. So yeah, as writers, you get tired of writing for that and you want to have something new. And the idea

of, you know, we're citing the Hogan heel turn from the NWO as a reason, you know, that it could be successful. Um, and then you start getting into the weeds of it and start getting into the, okay, well, who replaces them as the top baby face? And will this person who is the top baby face now be as accessible in, you know, going on interviews and the today show and that type of thing, uh, stuff that, you know, fans don't really think about, nor really care about, nor should they. But it's part of the mindset of covering all the bases if you're going to do something that huge. And who replaces him as the babyface?

Who does he work with? How many matches do you get out of it? What about his merchandise? What about all the things that he does off screen as a babyface? And John is always open to anything. If you he was not like, No, you can't, I got t shirts to sell. He was like, you tell me what you want to do. You want me to do and I am going to blow it out of the water as far as you know, putting all my energy and all my focus into it. But I think ultimately it was like, you know, Vince didn't, Vince just did not feel confident that we would have the necessary parts to adjust to that, uh, and didn't want to pull the trigger. And I think he considers it to be one of the smartest decisions he ever made. Um, you know, and that could be debated, but to the detriment where the same thing later happened with Roman Reigns, where Roman was being positioned as the top babyface and the guy and the smiling, suffering, succotash, you know, humble, but smiling babyface.

And the crowd was, you know, just as vociferous, if not more, in terms of not liking that. And then thankfully, you know, it wasn't just the, no, I stuck to my guns with Sina. I'm going to stick to my guns with Roman, for whatever reason. And the heel turn happened, you know, after I had left, but for whatever reason they committed to turning Roman and man, did Roman just run with that once you could tell he's so much more comfortable, the, the matches were, you know, unbelievable. And then what he's been able to do with the Usos and with Paul, you know, unbelievable. And then what he's been able to do with the Usos and with Paul, you know, and just establishing this, this legacy and, and, and group and everything.

It's really, you know, it just goes to prove that there's no one mindset that applies to all, you know, you got to take every character individually and, you know, treat it as such and not like, well, we didn't turn Sina and that works. So therefore we can't do that with Roman. I think that might've been the mindset at the beginning, but ultimately, thankfully that didn't last. Uh, I had a Daniel Bryan, AKA Brian Danielson on my show a few months ago. And I was asking about the difference between AEW and WWE. And he said that on his first day, like he couldn't believe that they just wanted him to do a promo and there was no script. And he was just so used to the WWE model. And I bring that up because obviously you were a big part of this, right?

You know, writing scripts for guys, the promos. And this has been a hot topic, very maligned by the online community, right? Don't script. Wrestlers have talked about it. The old school guys don't like it, et cetera. And I know this might be weird to ask someone who was a part of that process, but would you like to see less scripted promos? Do you think that at this point, the business should evolve to the point where, and I know certain guys are given that leeway, aka Roman, Paul Hey I never enjoyed handing someone a piece of paper and saying, let me know if you have any questions. I'll be in the back. I always, you know, the experience that I had working with Rock and working with Jericho and John Cena too and Edge and, you know, and Trish and Mickey and a number of people were always a collaborative effort with the writer and with the talent and it was always kind of like a um you know like use me use me if you want to if you want to dictate something to me and want me to like you know

work out the kinks as far as like you know making it you know cleaner or whatever if you're repeating yourself or if you're saying something that someone else is saying later. Use me if you're looking for ideas and want, well, what's my input? How would I tackle this? That type of thing. And we could sound off on each other and with each other.

I've never, like you said, some people can go out there. Steve Austin being the perfect example. He didn't need a writer, didn't need something, even in bullet points handed to him. He could just do it with some direction. Obviously, it helps to have some direction and not just throwing someone out to the wolves.

There are some people like like Kurt when he started and Randy Orton when he started. Not so much anymore with both of them that were like, I have so much in my head to compartmentalize and I, I got to do this match. I have five backstage promos. I have to do this whole, like that would be a great help for me if you could just put the words down and I'll, you know, either say it in a version that is familiar or I don't care. I'll do it word for word. But for me, like the happy medium and a lot of that has to do in my opinion with time and, you know, how much time you have, you know, between when the script gets rewritten and before they have to go out there to be able to sit down with a talent, have them truly invested in what they're going to say and know what they're going to say.

And, you know, that's how I worked with Rock all the time. It was like I'd give him like, like oh here's a first salvo at something and he'd look at it and whatever you know some stuff he'd like some stuff he wouldn't like and then what if i did this instead and said what if we took out that whole part and i went like this way i'm like oh that would be awesome and you know furiously typing the rewrite of it how does this look great um this last two lines let's think of something else for that in fact i have an idea what about this you know like that process i think is the sweet spot where you can take someone that you trust and someone that you like and someone that you have confidence in and get in trouble afterwards for saying it and be that it's a part of you and part of what your character would say and how you feel strongly about it the there was an era you know I think in mid-2000s where you know Vince and the mindset

was like this is a television show just like you know Live. They're not going out and improv-ing or any sitcom or drama. They're professional performers. I am the showrunner. I should know exactly what they're going to say, especially if they say something that gets advertisers upset or something like that. I literally want to know everything that's going on word for word. And I think that in wrestling, that could be constricting and that could be, you know, a detriment. I understand it. Um, but thankfully, you know, it was like a wave where when I first started, there was a little very, very loose and some people were not, we're just going out and saying whatever they're going to say. Uh, then

it got very, you know, a 180, 180 degree to the opposite where everything needed to be approved of, whether we liked it or not, talent and writers for that matter. And now I think what you're seeing is like a happy medium, hopefully a happy medium. It certainly was trending that way, you know, when I left in 2015, where you could work with the individual performer and come to a place where everybody's happy. I know you alluded to the current product, Triple H, Headed Creative, and the Usos and Roman Reigns. Could I just ask, what do you make of the product right now? Are you watching it?

Are you interested in it? Is there something in particular that you really like? I'd love to just get your take on what's going on right now. I think it's an exciting time right now. I don't always, I don't always watch it. I mean, for the past couple of years, you know, Raw and SmackDown, um, you know, while it's available Hulu and Peacock next day,

I was shooting young rock in Australia for five and a half months. So it wasn't, you know, at 8 PM. Eastern time is like 10 AM the next day, uh, in Australia where we're on the set and everything. So I consume the product a lot, like a lot of people do like scrolling a Twitter feed or watching YouTube highlights or not sitting down and watching the whole show. Um, and there were times where I was kind of bored with it and not really feeling particularly like, okay. And a lot of it, you know, to have to do, you know, pandemic era shows and the, and the Thunderdome and everything else, you know, they're making the best of a horrible situation.

And there are some times like where it's a, all right, it's a six man tag two segment match. That's going three segments. It's like, all right, I'm going to I'm going to check out better call Saul for a little bit and then check back in. But I think, you know, now it has like, you know, you could tell there's a new energy to it. People are, you know, maybe seeing this as a, like, this is my opportunity now, clean slate, whatever you want to call it. I don't have to have a little bit more leeway. There's a little bit of a unpredictability to it that, that didn't exist necessarily before.

And yeah, I, you know, yesterday as opposed to like, if there's like a Mets game on Monday night football game on, I'll be usually like, oh, all right, I'll, I'll scroll through Twitter and what have you yesterday's Mets game. I watched concurrently with raw on my iPad on my spectrum TV mobile app, you know, to watch both of them at the same time, because there was like really interesting stuff and, you know, wanting to see what happens. And, you know, I try to check out AEW on occasion too, you know, there's just so many hours in the day. That is mainly I watch through, you know, the social media and stuff like that. But, you know, there's some cool things too. You know, it's a fun time right now. I think it's, I think, you know, even putting aside the pandemic, just from a pure content

standpoint, I think, you know, the business itself, you know, is in a much cooler, exciting place than it was like three, four years ago. Competition, I think, leads to that, right? It just makes things a lot more interesting when guys are jumping around and everyone's, you know, striving to best the other. We always heard about you as being the rocks guy, the rocks guy. He's an icon.

He's an unbelievable talent. And when you start hearing about the people around him, you're like, wow, these people must be incredible as well. And now you're working for Seven Bucks Productions and the Young Rock Show is tremendous. My kids and I love it. It's incredible. I really do enjoy it.

And I wasn't really sure if I would enjoy it because sometimes when you try to like do pro wrestling in a sitcom way, it comes across as cheesy or corny, but it's really a great time. And now it's getting really interesting as we're starting to get closer to the stuff that we grew up with. And then just yesterday on Monday, you guys announced this incredible new series with the,

the dark side of the ring guys about the territories, which comes out in October, and I'm looking forward to that. Can I just end on this? Why do you think, I mean, you may disagree with me, but you are nothing like Dwayne Johnson, right? I mean, your background, your interests seem, I mean, obviously you're like wrestling, but like he's this workout guy, he's this larger than life superhero, and you're a Jew from Long Island. Why does it seem like you guys work so well and have had this incredible 20 plus year run together with, you know, greater things to come as well? Why do you think it has clicked so well between you and Dwayne

Johnson? You know, I think it stems from, you know, Dwayne's attitude of, you know, like when I first met him, which was like the very first day I met him at MTV and he's looking over, you know, what I had written, not prejudging anybody, not being like this guy, how could this guy possibly, you know, write for the freaking rock and saying, Hey, this is pretty good. Hey, let's do a vignette together, be on the telephone and I'll hit you with an, it doesn't matter. And then I'll hype the second coming up next and being like, okay. You know, I think that his willingness to kind of not see things on a surface level and getting to know somebody and being able to, you know, share in the successes and the adventures and the, the ups and downs and

everything else, you know, as a human being, that's just who he is. It's like, he's not one to say like this. What's this guy? Five, eight. There's no way this person can ever tap into the essence. That is the rock. See you next. You know, he always was very open minded. And, you know, and that's kind of what Young Rock kind of explores is the fact that. His life turned around really, really quickly, you know, from failure after failure, after failure, you know, between, you know,

getting hurt at the university of Miami playing football and getting cut from the CFL and being despised for all the wrong reasons at WWE when he first started that, you know, he's humble and he knows like, you know, it's not all like flashy, great, you know, everything's cool type of, you know, work and environment. You know, I'm trying to, the deep down answer is, I don't know. We just hit it off. But, you know, in the end it was, yeah, there's like a, he is very, very much willing to give people a chance to prove themselves and if you do success begets more success and yeah there's a very there's a very cool uh dynamic of you know

two very very opposite people both in personality and physicality and everything else um just clicking mentally and being able to sustain that for you know over two decades now and i'm very very appreciative of it well this has been so fun. I could talk to you for another two hours, but I'm going to let you go. You've been very gracious with your time. I urge everyone to check it out. It comes out August 16th, pre-order right now. It's an amazing read, especially since like you haven't been doing a podcast for five years, telling us all your stories. Like I listened to the Jericho one again. I've heard you on Edge and Christian, but there's just a couple of places to get stuff with you in it.

So this was like candy. I couldn't get enough of it. It was really a lot of fun to read, and congratulations. It's an amazing, amazing read. I can't say that enough. I want to wish the best to your Mets. Good luck to you guys. The best to our Bills and the best to our Knicks this coming season. I'm a little more confident in the Bills than the

Knicks. Maybe one of these days we'll have a championship that we can celebrate. First of all, thank you so much for those kind words. I really appreciate it. Secondly, as you know, as a sports fan, the Mets and Bills are never good at the same time. I don't know what's happening. I don't know

what to do with myself. I feel like I take one wrong step and it could all just go away. So I'm just going to like, you know, ride this wave and hopefully it brings good things in October and in February. Appreciate it, Brian. All the best to you. Thank you so much for doing this and good luck with the book. Great. Thank you. Thank you so much, Ariel. Appreciate it. All right. So there you have it. How fun was that? Brian Gewirtz, great guests, amazing stories, stories for days.

And if you like those stories, highly recommend once again, you check out his new book that comes out August 16th, available to pre-order right now. It's called There's Just One Problem. And if you just type in his name on Amazon, Brian gowertz you'll see you know on this feed in the title how to spell his name uh it's just a great read couldn't recommend it enough i read it in just a few days and loved every minute of it i wanted to ask him so many more questions about his time at wwe but there's the taste right there and i appreciate him doing this very much i hope you've been enjoying your summer and you know we took a bit of a hiatus we're going to

come back for a couple more episodes and maybe go, you know, we're just kind of figuring this thing out. But more to come in the next few weeks. So have no fear. Of course, we've got a litany of interviews on the feed, different interesting people, and they're all kind of evergreen. They're not really time sensitive. That was by design. So you can enjoy them whenever you want. And also, if you want to watch this conversation, go check it out right now on our YouTube channel, youtube.com slash Ariel Helwani. Thank you very much to Brian Gowartz.

Once again, thanks to all of you. If you want to rate, download, subscribe, review, I wouldn't hate you. I would appreciate it very much. Thank you to the production team. Thank you for your support. I hope you enjoyed this episode. I'll talk to you next week.

Have a great weekend. Thank you.