The Ariel Helwani Show - Charles Oakley

Episode Date: February 3, 2022

One of Ariel's childhood heroes joins the show for a wide-ranging discussion about his new book, The Last Enforcer, and many other topics, like Oakley's relationships with Michael Jordan and Patrick Ewing, memories of playing for the '90s Knicks, his trade to the Toronto Raptors, the infamous 2017 incident with James Dolan at Madison Square Garden, the current state of the Knicks, and who Oakley would like to fight in a celebrity boxing match!Charles Oakley played 19 seasons in the NBA, suiting up for the Knicks, Raptors, Wizards, Bulls, and Rockets during his illustrious career. He's most known for his 10 seasons in New York, where alongside Ewing, John Starks and, for a period, legendary coach Pat Riley, he helped the Knicks become one of the most popular teams in the league. He is also the founder of The Charles Oakley Foundation, which focuses on helping serve underprivileged communities.You can follow Oakley on Twitter @CharlesOakley34. His new book, The Last Enforcer, is available now.We're brought to you by BetterHelp. Join over 1 million people who have taken charge of their mental health and get 10% off your first month by visiting our link at BetterHelp.com/AHS.Today's episode is also brought to you by ExpressVPN. Visit ExpressVPN.com/HELWANI right now to arm yourself with an extra 3 months of ExpressVPN for free.For more episodes of The Ariel Helwani Show, please follow the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or on Ariel's YouTube channel.Theme music: "Frantic" by The Lovely Feathers

Hello friends, it's your old pal Ariel Hawani here, back with a very, very special episode of The Ariel Hawani Show. It is Thursday, February 3rd, 2022. I hope you're all doing well. Oh my, I can't wait for this one. First off, shout out to the lovely feathers for the great intro song. I mean, if you would have told 14, 15, 16 year old me that I'd be interviewing Charles Oakley, arguably, I mean, this man, Charles Oakley, the way I felt about him in my youth, in my adolescence, I can't even fully describe. Favorite athlete of all time, Patrick Ewing. Number two, Charles Oakley. And I actually tried to emulate Charles Oakley. Like everything I did on the court when I was playing basketball, basketball was a huge part of my upbringing, was always Oakley. It wasn't so much Ewing. I didn't play like Ewing. I wasn't

as tall as Ewing was, you know, comparatively. It was Oak diving, doing all kinds of crazy stuff, fighting, setting picks, rebounding, all that. I love this man. And I was heartbroken when he was traded in 1998 to the Toronto Raptors. I adored Charles Oakley. I can't even say that enough. And so this is a big week for Charles Oakley. His new book is out. It's entitled The Last Enforcer, written with the great Frank Izola, who's a previous guest on this show as well. And I just blew by this thing. I loved every second of it. I wish it was longer, to be honest. Great memories from his time in Chicago. He was traded to the Bulls on draft day after being drafted by the Cavs, then the trade to the Knicks, then the Raptors, had a cup of coffee with the Wizards, a couple games with the Rockets, but we all know Oakman is a Knick, and he's had

a somewhat up-and-down relationship with the Knicks brass over the last few years, a very unfortunate incident several years ago at MSG where he was dragged out. We talk about all of that, the 90s Knicks, memories, fighting, all that and more coming up in a matter of seconds. To say that I am excited to share this interview with all of you is a massive understatement. I love this man. I really do. And it is just such a huge honor for me to have him on the program. In a minute, we shall share that interview. First, let me tell you about my good friends over at ExpressVPN. As you know, I spend a lot of time on the road. I'm at boxing events, wrestling events, MMA events, all over the place. And when

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H-E-L-P.com slash AHS. All right. Support them because they support us. Now time for my interview with the last enforcer, Charles Oakley. Enjoy. I have one complaint about the book. I've read it. I got it three days ago. This is my one complaint. I wish it was longer. I was freaking loving that thing. It took me a day to read it. I flew by that thing. It was amazing. The stories, it sounds like you, it reads like you. I just wish it was longer. Can I ask though, though why now why did this feel like the right time to do this uh you know um it's a lot going on you know i had to make sure that you know the writer frank you know um had time and i made time because you know in the pandemic your time you know you got you have more time than regular days because what's going on you try to stay safe and stay out the way so i had more time than regular days because of what's going on. You try to stay safe and stay out of the way.

So I had more time to think about it. I had to wrote down a lot of notes over the years. And we brainstormed, we put it together. You can see it's a lot of work into the book. It ain't just a book to try to get someone, you know, finance to pay their money and forget about them. I want the people, when they read this book, you get your money worth out of this book. And then like what you said, it should have been longer.

Yes, because we plan on for a second one come out hopefully in the next couple of years. I love that. What I also love about it is it's so honest. It's very much you. It's authentic. You don't hold back. I'm curious though, were there a couple of times where you're like, man, I can't say that. I need to bite my tongue on that one. Like that one needs to stay in the vault. Well, you know, I think everybody bite their tongue sometime. But, you know, it's just me. I was holding back. But in this book, they still say it's a lot of stuff in this book.

And, you know, some people might be a little edgy, but I held back. So wait for the next book to come out. I like that. Promoting the next one already. Now, I want to get into a few things in the book. But, you know, one thing that kind of hit me while I was reading this was in media and especially in sports media, you have a lot of people who kiss a lot of ass, who don't tell it like it is because of relationships and whatnot. And I always wondered, why didn't oak ever get into tv you know i think you would have been great on one of those death shows and whatnot because you tell it like it is did that ever cross your mind

was that ever brought to your attention to do something like that yes i think i tell too much truth some people you know like i said they can watch the windows but they can't get in the house so i'm the guy who get in the house i'm'm going to tell you how it is at all time. And that's the only way I know. You know, I respect a lot of people. You know, I don't. Basically, you engage with me. The conversation will come out in this book.

And in this book, we'll tell you about a lot of different stories. A lot of things happen with me, with coaches. Not just people off the court and not you know on the court is basketball is basketball but engagement with different situations off the court and staying strong and you know and then this book would tell you a lot about that so um one of the things that i found right off the bat we'll get into it here that i thought was so interesting was you get drafted by your hometown team, the Cleveland Cavaliers. You say you were actually happy when you were traded

on draft night to the Bulls, not because Michael Jordan was on the Bulls, but because you thought it would be a little too much to play for your hometown team. Too many people would be coming at you. What did you mean by that? Because I would imagine most people would love to be drafted by their hometown team.

Yeah, they do. But my thing is, I know when I left Cleveland to go to college it was so much going on in the streets and i grew up in in the city and sometime when you grew up in the city you know i always you know i love cleveland i you know i always go home and but just you know going away and coming right back and you know i'm glad i was i had a chance to go somewhere else get a little established then i come back home and you know, I'm glad I was I had a chance to go somewhere else, get a little established. Then I come back home and, you know, I didn't have no problems, but I knew what was going on. It was there. You couldn't almost escape it.

I got out, left high school with the college. Like I only came back home one time in four years. Wow. Yeah. Because you just wanted to be away from it all. Just want to be away by coming in touch with the family. But it was it was, you know, a lot of my friends were getting in trouble. You know, a lot of guys I went, you know, just coming home the last five or six years, doing 18, 20 years. So I could have been one of them. When you got drafted, when you went to college, I should say, did you think that you would make it to the NBA?

You go to Virginia Union, not exactly, you know, a powerhouse as far as college. Like, was that the end goal for you? Or was it just, hey, let me play some basketball and have fun and see where this goes? That's what, exactly what you said. I went to college and, you know, hey, I didn't, I didn't know that I was even going to get a shot, not even get drafted, a shot to be at a point. People talk about me to get drafted. It just you know i just was being myself playing the game hard give it effort you know both ends and like i say you never know who watching you so somebody liked it what i was doing and it was jerry crowds and that's so interesting to me because you you actually defend j several times, especially coming off the last dance where it seems like his character was assassinated and the guy's not here to defend himself because he's no longer with us.

And I thought it's also interesting considering your relationship with Michael Jordan. And I know you're your own person with your own thoughts and own relationships, but you actually feel a lot of gratitude towards this man because he's the one that recognized your talent, right? Yes. Yes. a lot of gratitude towards this man because he's the one that recognized your talent right yes yes jerry kraus got a lot of credit for what you know especially me drafting me trading me brought me back but i still give him the most respect because he took a chance for me from historic black college and you never hear about athletes coming from historic black college getting drafted in the top 10 and i got drafted in the top 10. And I got drafted in the top 10. So he put a lot of trust in me. And I had to live up to it. I lived up to it.

You know, in the book, I talk about that. I went to his service in Chicago when he passed. And I said, rest in peace to Jerry and his family in my book, too. Do you feel like he was mistreated in the last dance unfairly? Who, me or Jerry? No, Jerry. You know, Jerry wasn't here to defend himself, like you said. There were some things said.

I know Jerry was, you know, he was a small man complex, but I think Jerry put a lot of work into it. When you win six championships, you don't get lucky to win six championships. It has to be some thoughts, some effort, some trade, some players, chef in and out to make everything work. So I give Jerry a lot of credit for putting it together. But like I said, he didn't score a bucket, but he gave opportunities to other guys to come on the team

and be a part of it. Like I said, Mike and Scotty was a face. They got six years. Boyce got three championships there. Dennis got three there. Paxton, I think Paxton got six. I think Curry got two or three. But they had, you know, B.J. Armstrong.

You know, the guys couldn't fit around Michael, spread the floor. I mean, it was a lot of, you know, three seven-footers, you know, who really hurt us because they checked Patrick in the playoffs. So you keep sending a guy, except for that, as your best player, you're going to weigh him down like a boxing match. You keep leaning on the guy, you know, smaller than you. Hopefully that 10th round, 12th round, he saw weakness, getting weak in the rain. But it was a good era of battle in Chicago and New York.

And everybody liked the 90 basketball. It was a special era of battle in Chicago, in New York. And everybody liked the 90s basketball. It was a special time in the NBA. Oh, yeah. I have a million questions about that. But I did want to ask you about your Bulls run. A lot of people forget about the Bulls run, early days with MJ. When you got to Chicago, could you tell that this man was going to be special? Because this is still 85.

He's not quite the MJ. Did you notice right away that this going to be special? Cause this is still 85. He's not quite the MJ who'd be like, did you notice right away that this guy has something special? Yeah. You can tell by practice. I mean, you see them practicing in a game. It easy when you practice harder, what he did, Michael and his book, we try to talk about some, I talk about some things that he just, he just always had that, that attitude and him have an attitude, have the edge that he holds, they said, against other people.

So that's just bringing more, make him more inside. Just want to boil over and just, I got to be this. I got to be that. But you can see it. You can see it. And you develop a great friendship. And I think this is where sort of the enforcer in you came out. You were like the protector of MJ because a lot of people were trying to rough him up.

Before getting, like as a Virginia Union player, were you also the enforcer there? Or were you more the star who other people were protecting? No, I was the leader and I was the enforcer. I would protect my teammates. And we had gotten a couple incidents in college. And my team against another team was like a little brawl, but it was crazy. But, you know, coach was telling everybody else to go to the locker room

and I seen like other kids, students from my school were getting into it. So I ran back out and got, you know, back into it with the fight with the other team on the court. And I was like, hey hey i'm free of minds and i see him in trouble i'm going to help him so there's a lot of crazy stuff happening in college speaking of fights one thing that i learned that i'm not going to give away too much in the book because i obviously want people to buy the last enforcer but i did learn oak that you found out that you were being traded from the bulls to the knicks while you were at the tyson spinks fight back in the day in 1988 now no cell phones back then so how did you actually find out like how

did word get all the way to you well it didn't get to me in this book i'll tell you it got to michael so michael knew some i don't sometime what he knew i'm like i don't know uh he might have somebody might have called him it was cell phones back then. I know he had one. But no, somebody called him. He's like, oh, no. He just told me. It was walking to the fight, matter of fact.

And in the book, I tell you some other things happened when he was walking to the fight. But yeah, he told me. I questioned him. I didn't hold no grudge because he didn't, you know, he didn't owe me no favor. He said they talked about it, but I just asked me. He said, being honest, he said, yeah, they did mention it, but they didn't say they was going to do it. So it happened. Was it awkward? You're sitting there with him and now you're no longer teammates.

I mean, yeah, basically us being so close. And I think in the book, you know, you can see how close we was. Right. But I did some things, you know things for his 40th birthday party. But it was just one of those things. I mean, I didn't hold no grudge. We didn't get no J. Krause, Mike, or no one. I figured I still had an opportunity.

I had a job. So that was the most important thing. They didn't cut me. They traded me. Right. Were you excited about joining the Knicks? Like you're leaving at that time this guy who clearly is going to become one of the greatest of all time. You could see it at that point in 88. Were you excited about the

opportunity to go to the Knicks? Yes, I was because they're going to trade me to a team that have no talent. You know, they had Patrick, some other guys and I feel like I'm the missing piece because most of the time a team trades for you, you're missing piece. So when I got to New York, I was just like, wow,

you know, life's brighter. The city they named twice, but we, it was, it was fun, you know, just coming here in New York. What was your relationship like with Patrick before you joined the Knicks leading up to that? We didn't have a relationship. I think when I came out of high school, I played him against this class in Akron, you know, all the high school. And then he went to Georgetown with the union, never played, you know, until I got to Chicago.

He was in New York. We didn't have any relationship. But, I mean, I can get on with anyone, you know, ain't about jealousy or this and that. So we played 10 years together in New York. We didn't win nothing. We went to Houston. We played Houston in the final of the 9-4.

We lost. But it was a lot of ups and downs. But, you know, we showed a team. You can break a team together and you get the right pieces. And we had a chance. We didn't ever get back to the finals, but we went there. So when you joined the Knicks, 89, 90, you know, it's a lot of transition, coaches, changes. But then when Pat Riley joins the team and he's hired as the coach,

it seems like everything starts to change and everything comes together in 91. Could I ask, what did you think at the time? Here comes Showtime Riley from L.A. Were you excited about this? Did you think it would work when he joined the team? I was really excited. I knew, you know, his record. He won championships in L.A.

I knew he had a good game plan. So, you know, because, like I said, he won several championships in L.A. I knew he had a good game plan. Like I said, he won several championships in L.A. Say that again. But no, in New York, this guy, like I said, he got a championship. He's sure he can win. So you have to give him the respect. And that's my whole game changed. Because he called me and said, oh, I want to talk to you.

We'll cut you a minute. I couldn't argue with him because I had to let him put a game plan. You never know until you've given someone a chance. So I gave him a chance to put a game plan in, to do what he had to do with every play on the team. And, you know, so I trusted him. Is it true early on that he took the clip of Jordan dunking over Ewing on the baseline in 91 and replayed it for you guys over and over again, like to make you watch it and tell you how disgusted he was by that?

Is that a true story? Not right off my recognition. But he did do a lot of film work, a lot of clips. And he definitely believed me. He tried to, you know, all all your mind at all time it's basketball it's it's the team you playing this and that but he kept you engaged that's one thing he didn't know how to do present and keep you engaged as a coach so this book i talk about in other ways that you know when he went to mi, he left New York, went to Miami. But I think that

he definitely know how to prepare you for the moment. The Knicks team that I fell in love with, like I truly stole my heart was the 91-92 team because you took the Bulls to seven games in the second round and no one gave you guys a chance right after how the 91 playoffs ended. Did you, in retrospect retrospect could i ask that seven game was a tough one for me man i'm 10 years old and unfortunately like it was pretty lopsided right you guys were never really in it was tough did you guys believe going into that seven game that you could beat them or was it almost like a moral victory that you pushed them to seven and you guys were okay with that no we felt um you know, 3-3. I mean, you put a lot of work in to make it 3-3, number one.

Right. Number two, I mean, most times they say whoever gets the better player always wins that next game. That's what it's been saying for many years. And, you know, we look at the stats, look at the paper, Patrick to Michael, Michael was the better player. And, you know, that seven game, you know, it's shown. But we went out fighting and sometimes when it ain't your day,

it ain't your day. And, I mean, you hate to go seven and don't play well. Right. At least like we did in the final with Houston. You know, we took it seven, went down to the last minute of the game in the finals. 93, you're up 2-0. Did you guys believe that it was a done deal?

Like, did you feel like this was the year that you were going to get them? Well, you know, you just take one game at a time. Because, like I say, you never know what can happen. You know, you look at Phoenix last year against Milwaukee. You can't get over happy. You're up 2-0. And still, you know, you got to win four games. And, you know, Phoenix didn't win no more games and we didn't win no more games.

So, yeah, you got to keep your cool at all times. One thing that I thought was super interesting in the book, everyone thinks of 93, they think of game five, Charles Smith. You didn't blame Charles. You say, you know, we missed free throws. We didn't do this and that. In the locker room, what was that like? Do you remember what it was like when you guys went to the locker room

after that game, after the miss last, losing at home? I mean, that game was like, wow, we couldn't believe it. We made a lot of mistakes. You know, I think, you know, when they stole the ball, you know, they think you know, when they stole the ball you know, they hit the ball and you look at the film, yes, he probably didn't get fouled, but you know, you're playing in Chicago

this is a championship team, they're not going to call no tic-tac-foul for, maybe for Michael or someone else, but not Charles Smith Charles Smith got good, but dunked the ball but, you know, We did do some things in the game that when you keep a game closed,

anything can happen. We were two points game or whatever. It was a bad loss for us as a team and the fans watching because we was right there. Did you feel after that kind of loss, game six, you guys were just done? No, we didn't feel we were done.

We was a fighter. We always could fight back. But, you know, I know I knew we still had a chance because when you can, like I said, play a close game, anything can happen. And, you know, it's just unfortunate we didn't get the call. We never got the call. We never made the big shot against the Bulls.

You know, they always seem like they need the shot. They make it. Hit a three in the corner. Michael, you know, dished a beer for the dunk in the game. It seemed like something always went right for them and nothing went right for us. During that period, when you guys are battling the Bulls,

they're your biggest rival. There's no internet. We don't know about relationships like we do now. Everything is out in the public. What was it like being, were you talking to Mike on the side? Because I thought, if you would have asked me, 13-year-old me,

I thought you hated those guys. You would have killed those guys. You come to find out you're friends, you know, and that's okay. That's normal. But like what was it like battling the guy that you considered a good friend? Were you – like did you stop talking during those playoff games or did it affect your relationship? I mean we talked. We know on the floor.

I didn't see him much on the floor. Like he didn't come to the rim a lot, this and that, running him down the court. But I mean it's always personal when you talk. on the floor. Like he didn't come to the room a lot, this and that running them down the court. But, uh, I mean, it's, it's always personal when you talk, it's always personal on the court of the court. I mean,

they talk mess, you know, I don't really talk a lot of mess anyway, so I never got into a job, but we don't really talk mess to one another. We don't really talk, you know, that make you want to, you know, we just went by.

He did his job. I did my job. You know, I think some players say, oh, they talk a lot back in the 80s and 90s. No, guys just play hard. Game was, it was real physical and tough in there. When you guys beat them in 94, of course, he's not there. He's playing baseball. Did you think, okay, smooth sailing here?

Did you feel like, okay, we got over the witch is dead we're done maybe we got to help you know we got a call from Hugh Hollins right at the Hubert Davis three but like hey it's all good we finally got one did you think that did you truly believe that was your year yes I did especially when we got there I mean so we got a call like I said, he would make the free throws when we went to the finals. I definitely, you know, basically it was the same team. Just, you know, like I said, Michael wasn't there,

but that wasn't our fault. Right. He chose to retire. But yes, it did give us a little window chance to get to the finals. But like I say, we didn't finish it off.

It was a great experience, but I think we needed that for the city,, we didn't finish it off. It was a great experience, but I think we needed that for the city, and we didn't. When Spike and Reggie are doing their thing, game five, nine, four, are you guys thinking like, Spike, can you shut up? Can you sit down? You're messing this up for us. What do you guys think? Because you could clearly see it going on

and that he's elevating Reggie's play by talking so much. I mean, we don't get into what the fans do with the other players because we are playing. No, we didn't. Spike was being Spike. I think that we just made mistakes. I mean, we can't blame Spike. I was on the bench.

I think about this a lot. Tell me. I don't know if I put it in the book, but the time when Charles Smith was on the floor in Chicago and then when the Reggie Miller scored the what, eight points in seven minutes, nine points? Oh yeah. Yeah.

Both of them plays, I was on the bench and I always wondered why. But that was where Pat Riley do things he wanted to do at the end of the game because sometimes you want a better free throw shooter in the game. He said he took me up in that Reggie Miller's case because he needed more ball handling. I said, that's why we got a point guard two guard. But we can go back and change a lot of things.

We could, but we can't. You make it to the finals, 94, Charles. You lose game one. You win game two. Sam Cassell, Sam Cassell hits the big three in game three, if you remember. You guys win four and five.

During five, are you aware of what's going on with OJ? Can you, like, are people talking about it? Well, we weren't really talking about it until, like, late. I mean, you know, everybody knew about it then. But no, we wasn't. But that was a tough loss game. You know, Akeem made the right play. He got double-teamed. He passed it out.

That was the one big thing with that series, that we didn't make the right plays. When we got double-teamed, we shot the ball. When they got double-teamed, they passed it out. And, you know, so in the book, I talked about that a little bit yes i've always wanted to ask someone on that team this question what was the play do you remember what the play was uh game six you guys are inbounding it ends up being starks takes the three and he gets partially blocked but ewing yeah ewing said he was open in the middle was the play for starks to take the

three or was it to go to ewing inside? Ewing always open. He always say open. But I think that it was a two man at the time out. It was a play for Patrick and John. But you never would have thought it was a pick and roll. John came on.

Akeem was just smart. Most pick and rolls with a score you fully trap him or if he stopped before fully contest the shot. See, we run the same play. Patrick stayed back. When they run the play, Akeem just more agile, you know, more quicker. And, you know, he more of a – he got a 6'10 body,

but he played like 6'5", 6'6", sometimes because, you know, he played soccer. So he can do more from side to side. So he got a hand on John's shot. I mean, he closed out. I mean, in the game, that's what you're supposed to do, put extra effort into what you're doing. I mean, if you can get there, I'm trying to, you know, make him shoot it

long, but he blocked, he tipped it a little, and just like, you know, just, you know, the ball never got to the rim. And, you know, John didn't have a great game. like, you know, just, you know, ball never got to the rim. And, you know, John didn't have a great game. Yeah, we know that. But a lot of guys wonder why Orlando Blackman didn't get in the game. Yes.

So I think in my book, I tell, you know, it was Pat Ryder's decision in the book. Crazy. Come on, man. It's game seven. The championship's on the line is because he wants to bring his wife on the trip he's a veteran why can't he bring his wife but he had his rules i mean he was a control freak and you know in the book i thought lando blackman's wife is the reason why the knicks didn't win the championship in 1994 that's crazy

well i ain't gonna say that's the reason why but i think when a guy scored 20 000 points and his game was like he was one of the best at setting people up and getting people in the air and jumping to him and going to the free throw line. So all we needed was basically a bucket from him, his smarts on the court at the time. When Starks is missing all those threes, is anyone saying something to him? Like, yo, man, can you chill a little bit? When you plan in the game, you know, go get a bucket? When you plan in the game,

you don't recognize what's really going on. But now you see most of the guys on the team, they got stat sheets during the game on the side. We didn't, you know, we didn't, they didn't let you look at stat sheets in our era. So you had to play the game and wait till just about when the game was over to see the numbers. And they may have your points on the board, but they don't have your field goal

per cent of how many shots you took. So I don't know. Could have been a different we had on the bench. Somebody else could have run more attention to the coach. That's what the assistant coach wanted to do. They get a stat sheet after every time out. So they knew what was going on. They could have made a decision uh putting

somebody else in they just didn't do it when you guys lose in 95 and of course the finger roll ends it against the miss finger roll against the pacers did you know that that was going to be it for riley and the knicks like could you tell that the end was coming no uh no i mean no i didn't because i didn't know that was that was management financial stuff going on behind, we didn't know. So in the book, you know, they talk a lot about, you know, he could have done it. I don't know what happened. He do have small hands.

That could have been a problem. The ball could have slipped out. I mean, you know, your teammates. So you try to not say nothing in a bad way because could have been me could have been anybody you know like the charles smith i mean we had to take out the team so i just had to take out the team so the thing the thing i always respected about you as a player was like again i'm telling you like i tried to emulate you diving picking because you were the enforcer like you had

everyone's back and i love that about you you're a fighter and and so you've sort of referenced it a couple of times in the interview and I've seen other stuff throughout the years. It feels like your relationship with Patrick isn't great. And that kind of, I have to say, it kind of breaks my heart because I know how loyal you are. And so it feels to me like you felt like you were betrayed by him. And that's why you're feeling this sort of way. Could you tell us what's the state of your relationship with Patrick? Because I think all Knicks fans want to see you guys friends again. I mean, it's just conversation. I mean, commentators and people who do broadcast games,

they talk about me. I don't take it personally. It's just part of the game. I mean, in his book, yeah, I might have said some things, but I mean, I played with him 10 years. I think I should know him more than a lot of other people. I just feel like he didn't trust the players in some situation, especially in the Houston series.

And he was having, he might've had one good game out of seven in the Houston series, but he kept shooting. And, you know, that's the thing back then, like superstars, you know, always keep shooting the ball and say, I'm going to get hot sooner or later. But sooner or later, I mean, you and the founders, they know later. It's now. But, you know, in the book, you know, yeah, I'll probably say some things about it.

But in every book, you know, Scotty talked about Michael Jordan. I mean, what can you say? Was he a good teammate? Was he a good leader in the locker room? He would always make those predictions. No, he made all these predictions. I remember the year he made, I'm going to get MVP instead of saying, we're going to get to the finals and try to win the championship.

I mean, he wasn't a good leader. I'm not saying he probably heard it before. Guys can go to him with a problem that he can try to solve or just, you know, give him encouragement. He didn't have that. A lot of guys on the team didn't respect him because it's things he did around the team. He didn't ever show – you know, like guys was like –

I was always a question about him. When you got to question six or seven things out of ten and you just leave it, that ain't good. So it's a lot of things that happened, but it kept in-house during the era. You know, it wasn't social media. It wasn't this and that. I mean, he was hard to deal with, hard to play with. But a lot of guys might not say that on the air, but they said behind his back.

He was just hard to play with. When's the last time you spoke to him? I haven't spoke to him, you know, especially after the incident happened in the garden. He didn't come to my rescue. He didn't he didn't reach out to you at all? No, nothing, not even a text. I got your back. I'm sorry. Nothing. Nope. Damn. You know, my thing is I play with him in his book is tell you 10 years, a whole decade.

I always had his back. You know, I think about six years ago, they offered him a daily job. I said, how can you off one, the second, probably the top two best player. I mean, one of the best top two player, but play for your organization, a daily job, but there's a lot of things went on with management him that a lot of people know, but haven't got out. But I mean, it is what it is. Um, I'm gonna still hold my head up high you know i know a lot of people say why i'm talking i'm not talking about it's just conversation

about commentator talking about me my skill level not just not there i don't take it person i mean but he said he was just a guy so he probably will if he called you up and said and says now like i'm sorry for not having you back. That was my bad. Did you accept it? Uh-uh. Why? Because, I mean, I could have been in, I could have not happened in the garden. And, you know, everybody was saying all this and that. He didn't, you know, he got Reggie Miller, Brad Doherty, all these guys. So I went to war with Brett Davis, calling me and, you know, oh, man, sorry.

We wish, you know, that wouldn't have happened. This and that. He didn't call and say that. Hmm. He didn't call and say that. He didn't call and say that. He said something about six months ago about it. Like, it's been five years almost, four years. I'm like, why are you bringing on? It's a situation that nobody wanted to see happen,

but I would have thought he would have been the first one. Michael Jordan calling me, and I played here for 10 years. I know we met Michael some more closer than me and him, but still. Because reporters told me, because he was in Charlotte then, coaching. And they know they asked him. He just said his favorite line, no comment. You know.

The guys who currently work for the Knicks, you know, like the Starks of the world, the LJs, did they have your back privately? They didn't have no power. You know, I have to go, like I said, he could have been our leader. You go to the head and work your way down. I think it was him and then me first, you know,

supposed to be our leader. I was the leader, but them guys didn't have no power, no sense. So, you know, it was just how he brung 16 or 17 guys to the game that sunday in you know trying to parade around the arena like nothing happened you know a lot of them guys i see him i i told bernard king he was wrong i pulled him to the side until you i said you was wrong he told me his wife want to come to the game i I said, they got a lot of home games. Why that game? So I really, you know, and then a lot of people said, well, I said, Bernard, you know better.

You had issues before. You had run-ins with people. You know, this man made you turn off your Twitter account because he said something about Carmelo Anthony. It's a lot of stuff going on. Right. Okay, now going back to the 90s if i can uh when riley when riley leaves via fax how do you feel about that i mean things happen you know people do things their way um you know i guess his contract was up right yeah but it was just like he kind of announced it via the facts and people, you know, Pat the Rat, they called him and all that stuff, you know?

Hey, like I said, this guy for being a leader, this and that, you never know what a person is going to do in life. Sure. But he's a control freak, so he probably wanted more parts. You know, they probably offered him a deal or something made him want to go to Miami. A better deal than the Knicks. You know, they probably offered him a deal or something made him want to go to Miami. A better deal than the Knicks. You know, he wanted to be

a part of ownership. He wanted a percentage of the franchise. They didn't do that. And Miami did. And he went to Miami and he built the same type of team

down in Miami. And then, a few years later, he adjusted what he didn't do in New York with us and won a championship. And then, he just again brought Le adjusted what he didn't do in New York with us and won a championship. And then he just again brought LeBron and Abashin, win two more championships.

And he went back to the finals about four years ago and got a chance of going back this year. So he he made adjustments, but he made them after he left New York. So I want you to makeets in that series with Houston, and we might have a championship. When they hire Don Nelson, it's clear that it's not going to work out, and then they go with this young assistant coach who doesn't look like an imposing presence at all, but it seemed like you guys love him, Jeff Van Gundy.

And I remember that game against Philly where you guys got blown out, and then that Sunday afternoon game against the Bulls where you smacked them down, the 72 in Bulls. Did you believe in Jeff? Like, were you in favor of him getting that shot over Don Nelson? I mean, I did, but I don't think Patrick liked Don Nelson because Don Nelson didn't go through with the offense. But Jeff was a hard worker. And you saw that, you know, with someone beside you for two or three, you know, years that you see him, how hard they work.

And you wanted the next man up, you know, who know you to come in and do the job to someone from the outside. But Jeff did a great job. He took the team to the finals, the lockout year, but they lost. But, you know, he got there.

So he proved a point. He was a guy who could coach a team into a get him to a championship a lot of people feel like the 97 team the one that was up 3-1 against the heat and then the ball derailed it had the better chance can i get your opinion on that 93 94 95 96 was kind of a rebuilding year 97 98 was down as well Which of those teams do you think had the best chance of winning? Do you think it was the 97 team that got derailed, or do you think one of those other teams were better? I mean, I think you got to go.

I mean, 97 was good. I mean, I left in 98. But, you know, it seemed like something always got in our way. You know, besides that one year, Michael wasn't there. So he wasn't in our way. You know, besides that one year, Michael went there so he wasn't in our way, but besides that seemed like something always happened to keep us out of there. So. Uh, in the book we talk a lot about these playoff game.

But like it was just we didn't have enough. We played hard and tough. We kept the score down. We gave ourselves a chance, but we never could make the big play. And basketball, baseball, you watch football

over the last two weeks, everything is about a big play. You know, we, we was more like Baker Mayfield could make the play. And the other team was like,

world for Cincinnati could make the play. Right, right, right. Where were you when you got the call that you were being traded to Toronto? I think we did a team meeting, and a week later, they called me and said they were trading me for camp. I think I was in New York, and I think that the next week, John Stocks had a golf tournament I went to,

and Ernie and David Check was there. And they told me – no, Ernie was there, and I was pissed at Ernie because I just had met with him, you know, the last game of the season. The day after, you go talk to him, like, what are we going to do next year to make the team better? Right. And next thing I know, I was out the door. And I thought it was so disrespectful. But, you know, I didn't cry about it in the paper.

But when I seen Ernie Gunfield, I told him about it. I was offended on your behalf. Like, I felt betrayed. How could they let Oak go? And then Camby was kind of, you know, a little bit. I mean, they said I was getting old. So, I mean, we all get old. We all can't, you know, you can't hold a grudge, but don't call me in.

You already know. I mean, they ain't changed. They ain't offer you an all-star for me. Like you already knew your plans was to move me before you even talked to me. So they get all the good stuff out of me and they traded me oh man you tell a great story in the book i i won't give it away here about your first trip to canada after getting traded getting stopped at the oh yeah yeah it's a great story um it was real crazy can i ask you though oak i mean you see that team in 99 make the the finals without you

how hard was that it wasn't hard i mean um you know we add pieces and you know like i said jeff was a good coach and you know you've been there and you still add something to the team and you get there i mean the playoff come easy when you do something over and over it should get easy to you i know know it's still going to be hard, but you should get familiar with it. Larry hit the big shot, right? Was that the year? Yeah, that was four-point play. I didn't know him. Allen played

decent. Did you follow them? Were you rooting for them? I'm a Knicks fan. I watched the game, but I came to some of the games, I think. I remember all the way back, but I don't know what was banned from the Garden there. But, yeah, I came to.

No, but they had a good run. I mean, you know, San Antonio, they took them game six. Avery hit the big shot. I was at the game, hit the shot in the corner from the left side of the basket in front of the bench. And, you know, Sweetwell was on that team. I mean, they had a good little team. I mean, you know, put together a team.

Like I said, they got there and had a chance. I think Patrick was hurt. Right? Yep. Achilles. I think the next year he got traded to Seattle, right? One more year, 2000, they beat the Heat in the second round and then lost in the conference finals to Indiana.

I mean, I could talk about this all day, but we don't have all day. I'm Canadian. So, you know, it was cool. I was like, all right, if he's going to go to one place, let him go to Canada. Let Oak go to Canada. We'll take care of him in Canada. But could I ask you, Oak, 2001, game seven, vince sanity decides to go to his graduation in the morning of the sixer game misses the last second shot as a veteran as the leader of that team and i know you were kind of looking after tracy and everything like did you think that was a good idea why are you going i mean it's a

graduation man why are you going in the morning of game seven? I mean, yeah, we talked about it, but, you know, he was young and he wanted to walk with his class from when he went to college. So, I mean, things like that, you got to let, you know, families, some with the family, you got to let guys be themselves. And like I said, management, it didn't say nothing, you know, nothing for me to say. Sometimes you got to let management do. And then you do.

But in that case, it was all on management. And it wasn't on the players. I mean, we knew he was coming back. But, you know, some people can do two things in one day. Fly somewhere and fly back. And, you know, he had a good game. We just, you know, went down to the last shot. And, you know, he took the shot and missed it.

It was a one-point game. I think some people think that if he doesn't go, you maybe win that game. We'll never know. It's one of those things. I remember when KD and Kyrie chose to sign with Brooklyn over the Knicks a couple years ago. I put out a tweet, you know, I'm still, you know, I still support the team, but it's been tough at times. And I said, anyone who says this is the darkest day in Knicks history is not a real Knicks fan.

The darkest day in Knicks history, without a shadow of a doubt, is when they dragged you out of that place like a piece of garbage. That to me was the one time where I thought, I don't know if I could do this anymore. I don't know if I can support these guys anymore. When Mr. Dolan went on the radio show with Michael Kay and was trying to slander you, I mean, I was tweeting at you. A lot of people had your back in New York. Nick Svens had your back. And that was hard, man. Because I think before that point, your jersey should have been retired already. You should have been treated like an absolute legend. And so can I ask you, do you think, like, you're going to be asked about it a lot on this tour. Right, yes.

And I'm sure you have to relive it over and over again. When you think about it, do you wish that you would have done something different? Do you wish it could have been avoided? Do you wish, you know, there was something could have changed? Or was that just like a combustible situation that was going to blow up regardless so in the book trying to explain but maybe i shouldn't have went to that game i was just trying to go because i know the clippers is in town and don't you know go see a good game but it was just sad what happened and um i know for the fans to see the family to see and you know playing it for a whole decade and get treated like that it's just

it's just bad so we're still in litigation right now and you know just i really don't like to talk about it a lot because it brings back memories and i know what happened the first month or two i'm going home to my wife and couldn't sleep at night thinking about somebody breaking the house trying to come in and beat me up or something it was. It's a state of my mind for a long time. Really? Really? I mean, those dudes, did they break your watch? No, they didn't break it.

I handed it to the guy. You know, I'm always thinking, you know, get a $75, $50, $75 watch on. You don't want to just, you know. But no, it was just, it was just sad, you know. Did you say something to him? No. Nothing. No words were exchanged no word i didn't get close enough to him to say nothing to him he tried to say i said something to him and how can i say something in front of 20 000 people and nobody look around to see who was

how you know he said i was howling at him he's been lying the whole time and everybody said he got a lot of money, he can do things. No, you just can't do that. I think that it should have been a riot the next day when he did that. Because he would have been a man who in power caused a riot in Madison Square Garden because he sent them guys over there. In the book, I was like, it's embarrassing. And they lead in punishment and all. No punishment for nothing.

Did you ever have a good relationship with him? Was there ever a time? I didn't even know him. So in the book, I tell you about some things happened in New Orleans, and he's shaking my hand. You think if he's not the owner of the Knicks that LeBron would have signed with them in either 2010 or you know a few years ago because in the book you referenced that as well you think you think he's the reason why LeBron never came to New York? One thousand percent. Damn. Yes he held back could have had KD, Kyrie I mean he holding back from getting a marquee play on this team as long as he's on the

team they're not coming. Guys call him. They call him more than ever right now. We really, with Hugo, what he did to you, you never know who he might do it to. So a lot of guys, I believe they respect me. So in the book, I talk about that. Right. When you had that meeting with him and Adam Silver

and Michael was on the phone, was it close to being resolved in that meeting? No, because it just happened. I mean, I gave him a conversation. I did try to go in there with an open mind, like hoping it could. But when he asked me that same day, invite me to a bowling party, we can walk in with him. Everybody can think we cool.

I'm sitting like, oh, you see, you see what just happened? My grandmother, grandfather turned when they grade, cause they raised me better than that. You're going to meet go to him. Then he came back with another solution. Well, two weeks we were playing Indiana and looked at the schedule.

Yeah. This, I think it was March of 11 or something. Maybe. Yeah. March something. We were playing the Pacers in the guard. But we're going to bring you back.

You're going to sit courtside with me again. I said, why are we with you? We'll retire your jersey, roll out everything, and everything. I know. It ain't that easy. He was trying. He was trying. He telling you right there he was wrong.

He telling you right there that he was wrong. He, he can, he tells you right there that he sent them guys over there because he'd taken up for what happened, trying to prove, you know, time to make me happy. He never tried to make me happy. He wouldn't, he wouldn't shake my hand.

Three years before that. Is there anything he could do or the Knicks could do now to fix this? Is there anything that like, I don't know. I was, whatever I would do, is there anything he could do or the Knicks could do now to fix this? Is there anything that, like, even if it's public? I don't know. Whatever I would do, I would put the fans in my thoughts because they was behind me. And in the book, they showed me so much love and people in the city.

So I'm willing to always talk, but he just, he don't want right. You know, it's been several other incidents. I think in this, when his book, I see him in Vegas about him. So there's always something about him. He keep doing the same thing and getting away with it. Would it bum you out if you never go inside MSG again? Like, do you feel like that will be something that will bother you? It would bother me for the fans because when I was going to the games,

they always come to me, take pictures, shake hands. I miss that from the fans. So I'm walking down the streets of New York, wherever I'm at. I mean, I take pictures with them, but being inside the guard with the fans, it's a different space. And I miss the fans because, you know, they know real stuff and they know, you know, over the years, watching people play basketball, they deserve better.

Just a couple more minutes here and then I'll let you go. And this is such an honor, such an honor for me, Charles. I can't even say it enough. Could I ask, I mean, I'm dying to know your thoughts on this current version of the Knicks. We got really excited last year, four seed, and now it seems like we're back to going to the lottery what's wrong with the Knicks right now in your opinion um you know I think I've been watching a few games and I don't know it's just I think they um they play hard but now you're playing hard you gotta play smart you gotta play together the chemistry you know, I think that they don't have a rotation and this late in the season you got to have a rotation.

I know guys have been hurt. The protocol, some guys had to sit out and miss games, but you still got to have the chemistry that's in there. I mean, I thought after the last year losing to Atlanta in five games, that everybody would come back.

You would see a difference. You know, I know they came out early in the season, you know, first five or six games, you know, but since then, they tell off. They win one, lose two. But they just got to get, you know, at the all-star break, hopefully they can just gel and get it back together. You know, fans looking for more, huh? Yeah, Julius, it doesn't seem like,

is he just not cut out for New York? Well, he did the wrong thing. He gave the fans a thumb down. I mean, that's going to be hard to live past in New York because the fans, you can't worry about what the fans do. The fans have been doing stuff, booing stuff. When I played and before I played, they're going to keep doing it.

You ain't playing? I mean, they're paying money. I mean, they come to see a good game. This is New York. They expect, I mean, at least play hard and play with effort. I mean, you can lose, but at least lose playing hard and trying. And they're not going for just laziness. You can't be lazy

and say, well, this is our night. No. When you step on the court, it's got to be your night. In your mind, you might not win. You can't be lazy and say, well, this is our night. No, when you step on the court, it's got to be your night. In your mind, you might not win. You can't win them all. So in the book, I talk about,

you know, we had the same situation. You know, we got booed a lot. But you can't let it get to you. I mean, you can't,

you know, they pay you a contract, they expect you to play hard and play well. Fair to say you think MJ's the greatest player of all time? Greatest player since I've been in the living. Fair. Yeah, him and LeBron are the top two.

What about MJ, the owner, MJ, the GM? Do you give him crap for that? I mean, it hasn't been the best run as an owner and GM. I mean, it's hard to get good playoffs in the draft. I mean, it's hard. I mean, he got the ball kid. He, you know, it might be the best player he had since he had the team, but it's just tough. I mean, a lot of teams going through, I mean, you're trying to get playoffs. You draft a player. He's great in college and this and that.

And coming in BA is different, you know? So it was a lot of number one draft picks. Can't average 25 and 5. They average 12 and 13. Or 12 and maybe 5 or 6. And you get number one. You want to come in and make a difference. And I keep where you at.

Let me tell you something. In the 90s? Yeah, no, I get that. And I'm trying to have some fun with him because he broke my heart so many times. But in the 90s when you guys would show up. He broke a lot of people's hearts. Yeah, that's for real. He was a freaking assassin.

I don't know. You know, it's just like in sports, if that one team can hold you from doing a lot of things in life. You know, he always said I was born at the wrong time. So he said, I couldn't control when you're born. So, but, hey, we still here talking about it. And, you know, it was some good days back in them days. And I hope the Knicks just get back on track for the fans. Got to do it for the fans.

For real. Can I just ask you before I let you go, when you guys would show up in the playoffs in the 90s with the shaved head, the black shoes, the black socks, I love that. It always, you know, Patrick was my guy. I got to admit, I love that. He wouldn't do it.

Why wouldn't he do it? Why wouldn't he do it? Come on. Everything, see, people always try to critique what I'm saying about Patrick, but they don't know. It's a lot of stuff we had to put up with Patrick. But we said, everybody, we're going to we had to put up with Patrick. We said, we're going to cut our hair and wear black shoes.

I ain't cutting my hair. I'm like, come on, man. You looked so damn cool with the shaved head. Now he don't have no hair, so what's the big deal? You looked so damn cool with that shaved head. I loved it. Hey, last question. I'm a fight guy, right? I cover MMA, boxing. I love fighting. That's why I loved you, because I'm a fight guy, right? I cover MMA, boxing.

I love fighting. That's why I loved you, because I loved fighting. If there's one guy you could choose to fight, like to legit fight in the ring, in the cage, throughout your career, who would it be? I feel like everyone would guess Barkley, because you had the stories. You had Jeff McInnes. You had Tyrone Hill. We know all the stories. But if you could pick one pay-per-view main event, Las Vegas,

all the lights on you, one of these big fights, who do you pick? Shaq. Shaq? Why? Yeah. Because he's been calling me out. I'm the number one guy he wants to get into the ring with, so I'm calling him out.

You would do it right now? You would do it now? Right now, yeah. You would fight Shaq? He might be 100 pounds ahead of me but i'm still getting a ring with him because you know celebrity boxing now everyone's you know jake paul this and that you would fight shack on one of these cars you want it you're calling them out jack uh lamar odell either one okay we'll make it happen i like to fight big guy i don't want

a little small guy jake paul it's too small for me. That's right. That's right. They're my homies, though. That's right. From Cleveland. No doubt. That's right. The Last Enforcer. I mean, honestly, I can't wait for part two. You're the man, Charles. Thank you for all the memories. Thank you for everything you did for us. Can I ask you one question? Yeah. On a scale of one to ten, what do you give me about the book?

What do you think about the book? One to ten. Honestly? Twelve. Twelve. Charles, let me tell you something. Frank is my neighbor. I love Frank, and I love you. What do you think about the book? One to 10. Honestly? 12. 12. Charles, let me tell you something. Frank is my neighbor. I love Frank. And I love you. I was trying to get my jersey.

It doesn't fit me anymore. I got a little bigger. I wanted to wear it. Charles, when I say I loved you, I loved you. I mean, ask my wife. I grew up with my wife. I'll tell your wife. Thanks for letting me read the book in one day.

Thank you. I tell you, I could ask you questions about Suge Knight, about Biggie. I read it. I'm not lying. You know, a lot of these interviews you're about to do today, they didn't read the book. Let's be honest. They didn't read the book. I read this freaking book.

Okay. And I loved it. I thought you were going to ask me one about Donald Trump. Well, save it for the book. Charles, you're the man. Thank you very much. Good luck to you. Thank you. And thank you for everything you did for us.

Appreciate it. Thanks. Oh, man. That was amazing. I could have asked Oak a thousand other questions, but I scratched the itch. I crossed off the bucket list item. I got to talk to number 34 for your New York Knickerbockers, the pride of Virginia Union, the pride of Cleveland, the man who fought, who bled,

who sweat for the Knicks, for the city of New York, for Knicks fans everywhere. What a thrill that was. Truly was a thrill. And honestly, the book is great. If you're an old school basketball fan, if you're an old school Knicks fan, Raptors fan, you're going to love this. You're really going to love this book. I can't say enough good things about it. I urge you all to check it out. He is a real one and sort of the last of a dying breed in sports. And it pains me to hear about the state of his relationship with Patrick Ewing. Pains me to hear about the state of his relationship with the Knicks. But I will always have Charles Oakley's back. I will always defend Oak. And I will always hold him in the highest of regards, and

he reminds me of my childhood. He's a special figure in my life, and I hope that came through. Hope you enjoyed the conversation. Thank you very much to Charles Oakley. Thank you to his team for setting this up. Thank you to Frank Izola as well, who helped write an amazing book. And again, go check it out wherever you get your books, Amazon, whatever. And thanks to all of you for continuing to listen, download, subscribe, review, all that stuff, follow. It means a whole lot. If you want to watch my interview and see me in a giddy state for about an hour with

the Oakman, please do check it out on our YouTube page, youtube.com slash Ariel Helwani. That's where you can find it. This one meant a lot to me. I think I have made that clear. And I'm loving doing this show. So thank you to our sponsors, ExpressVPN, BetterHelp. Thanks to everyone behind the scenes who helps me do this show. I appreciate you guys more than you know.

And I appreciate you fans, you listeners, you viewers more than you know as well. Last week, we had Mario Lopez on. We've had Dan Lebitard on this year. Blake Snell of the San Diego Padres. We've got some fun ones coming up as well. And of course, last year, we had some great ones with Pat McAfee and AJ Hawk and Michelle Beadle and Kelly Slater and Daniel Ricciardo. It's been a lot of fun. And I hope you're enjoying this as much as I did. And I do as well. I'm loving it. I'm loving every second. Okay, I'm

rambling now. I'm out of time. I love you all. I love Charles Oakley. I love this book. Thank you.