The Ariel Helwani Show - Charles Oliveira coming back too soon? Khamzat-DDP heating up, Artem Lobov is back, more | The Craic

Episode Date: August 8, 2025

The Craic is back! Petesy Carroll is joined by Craic regulars Chuck Mindenhall and Ben Fowlkes to break down the week’s biggest headlines.First up, Charles Oliveira’s return against Rafael Fiziev. The crew debates whether it’s too quick a turnaround for Oliveira after his KO loss to Ilia Topuria just three months ago (6:12).One fight fast approaching is Driccus du Plessis vs. Khamzat Chimaev. With UFC 319 just a week away, the boys gauge excitement levels and share insights from DDP’s recent interview with Ariel earlier in the week (19:04).Next, the trio reacts to news of Artem “The Russian Hammer” Lobov’s return, and assess his chances heading into his bout against Zubaira Tukhugov on PFL Dubai (40:05).Petesy and the guys then shift to the recent news surrounding the TKO Ali Act amendments. They weigh in on the TKO’s statement addressing the controversial changes (54:19).To close the show, they look ahead to this weekend’s combat sports events, and answer your Super Chats (1:09:31).

Welcome back to the crack everybody. It is Friday, crackheads. It's your favorite time of the week. We are back, baby. We've got a lot to talk about. Charlie Olives. Fighting for Zayev. I mean, a bit of a quick old turnaround there.

I don't know if you saw the thumbnail, but that will be a big subject. We'll be attacking on today's crack. We'll be talking about the looming middleweight title fight between Drickus Duplessi and Hamzat Shemoev. We'll be talking about the return of the Russian hammer, Artem Loboff, who delivered a fantastic interview with Ariel Hohani last week. We'll be talking about TKO and some misconceptions they attempted to clear up earlier this week with regard to their amendment of the Ali Act. We'll also be talking a bit more about the tabology rankings

because a certain man who's returning to the show today probably knows a bit more than we did when we talked about it during the week and may have panned it a bit too hard, but listen, I can only tell the truth to you people, crackheads? Okay, when I see a crackhead, I tell them the truth. That's the promise I make to you, that's a promise I make to myself. We'll also be taking a look at this weekend's action. Another tremendous apex card on the way to you.

We also have PFL Africa and a bit. big old outdoor event from Octagon, who are taking the European scene by storm. Now I tease it a little bit up front. Me and the man of the hat have been waiting for the return of the prodigal sun. You might know him as the man with the handsomest face and the biggest arms and the loveliest t-shirts, as Jordan says, it is Ben, folks. Welcome back, sir. How are you?

I'm great. It's good to be back. I feel rested, refreshed. And, uh, damn it, I missed you. I missed you guys. I missed the crack as my Friday routine. It's just Fridays aren't the same without this show. Ben,

I like that you just take those compliments that Pizzi lobbed at you and just like, I know, I know. It's good to be back, boys, you know, that sort of thing. Listen,

when you're the man, you don't go around shouting about how you're the man. You let, you let other people tell you. That's true. And they did, Ben. They fucking did tell us.

They told me too much. This is the point where I got really sticking with you, man. I mean, it was a joke. It was like, they just saw a Beyonce concert when I came on one day. They were like, Ben was here.

And I was like, Roy, Jesus, like, did anyone? Did anyone do this while we were there? So can you remember any excitement whatsoever? The thing that they were saying after I was there was like, was Chuck here? That's what they said. The trick is, they forgot immediately. The thing, the mistake you guys made was you went there and you stuck around and like did the show and all that kind of stuff. And so, you know, you got to be like Andre the Giant, like back in the territory's days where it's like, you see the giant every night.

It loses some of its novelty. If he only comes through once every three months, you know, he really maintains some of the appeal. I was there for like 20, 30 minutes, and then I was out on my way to the Mets game, just there long enough to make an impression and there to leave on a high note before everybody got sick of my bullshit. That's the way you got to do it. With the Misfits font, too.

That was a damn cool shirt. See, I'm glad somebody appreciated the Misfits font on the Metsch because it is kind of subtle. It's not exactly, like you got a no to know. And I felt like when I was at the actual Mets game, no one around me seemed to appreciate my misfits. I've seen that fan base, man. To be honest, it was the first thing on Aaron Jordan said to me. Like, in fairness, Ariel had talked about the strength, as did G.C.

I think Rick said something about you being so handsome. And then at the tail end of that, Jordan was like, and his t-shirt, my God, it was a misfits, Mets T-shirt. And I was like, all right. Everyone had already said my compliments, so I had to throw on the shirt. Well, and you know what? They were right. I was like going to a Mets game in the middle of the afternoon on a Wednesday,

and I was like, it's surprisingly even happening. They're like going to be a lot of camps. A lot of kids in camps. Sure enough, they start panning that camera around the stadium. And, you know, how they will put the kids in like the same bright neon green shirt so they don't lose them. There was a lot of that going on. But cheered the Mets to victory. Pete Alonzo hit one out.

I like to think I was close enough to the field to play a small role in the Angels manager getting thrown out while arguing balls and strikes late in the game because I was I was only a few rows back from the field and close enough to tell the umpire you don't need this this guy's disrespecting you don't you don't have to put up with this and then gone great day at the ballpark love it do they ration do they cop you off on how many beers you can have like I've heard this a few times about American sports events and intimidate me if there's a limit I didn't find it And I was trying. I don't think so, man. They do stop serving, though, I think, what is it, mid-seventh? Something like that, mid-seventh, I think. I think that the rule changed on that after they instituted the pitch clock. I don't know exactly what they changed it, too. But for a while, the rule was one thing, especially, I think it ought to be different at some stadiums and others because it's like, you know, some, if you're going to Dodger Stadium, you're driving out of there because it's L.A.

If you're going to see the Mets, you're going to see the Mets, you're probably taking the subway. out of there so it's a little safer but the baseball teams did fine when they instituted the pitch clock these games are getting over much faster we're not making as much money at the concession stand from all the beers so let us push it a little bit so we can keep selling the beers I'll tell you who's a drunk crowd

I was just in the I was in Boston at a game and we hung around afterwards just kind of get some pictures of the green monster and all that walking out of there under certain seats there was piles of like 12 beers I mean these people were like putting them away for nine and that was a fast game like two and a half total you know and uh dude it was a drunk crowd that was a fun time you had nice seats as well yeah those are nice right like you yeah it was beautiful they play sweet caroline for you buddy

they played sweet caroline yeah you did i did see a sweet caroline the actual moment right um lads better talk about mima that's what we're here to do um charlie olives a bit of a shock announcement there he is back on october 11 in rio the main event against uh fazoyev A man who has turned his fortunes around very recently, Ben wrote about this. Ben, I got the impression reading your piece that a little bit of surprise about the old timeline here. I don't know if I would say surprise because he did make it clear pretty quickly after the lost Ilya to Poria that this is what he wanted, that he wanted to fight again sometime this year. And for the UFC to go down to Rio, that seems like a natural fit for him. It's been a few

years since he's fought in Brazil also the last time he fought at that that card that was in i want to say it was in brazilia but it was somewhere down in brazil where it was the last one before the pandemic uh strictures really took effect and it was an empty arena but it was not planned that way it was they were going to have a normal like a fight night event but then by the time the event we rolled around Brazil was like no you can't have 20 000 people in here while this thing is jumping off. And so he fought in front of that empty arena and it was both the last time he fought in Brazil and the last time he fought on a non-paper view card. And so I can understand why if he wanted to fight sometime before the years out, they thought this is a pretty good

fit. It is like, I do still think it's probably a bad idea, though, because how many times have we seen fighters, how many times have we seen fighters do it where they're Ilya Toporia is involved, where you get knocked out and you want to turn around and fight again. We saw Alexander Volcanowski go through something similar, and I understand the impulse, you had that bad taste in your mouth, you lost, you want to get back in there. That's the only thing that kind of erases it for them. But it also seems like around three months after a bad knockout loss, which he said, the only time he felt like he'd been really knocked out, out, where he didn't have any

memory of it and people had to tell him what happened in the fight, he said he'd never gone through that, to go through that for the first time, to go through it in your mid-30s, where I can tell you, as a guy who's had a few concussions, your brain doesn't come back as easily from it the older you get. You struggle with it a little more. And then try to turn around and fight like three months later, that seems like a bad idea for me, not just for like brain health terms, but in terms of like wins and losses. Because right now, you look at Chuck Yollos' record, he's only losing to really, really good fighters. If you try to come back too soon and you're not really there.

You could really end up losing this one to Raphael Faziv. It's just not to say he sucks or anything, but that's when people are going to start to look at you and be like, that's a man on the way down. So I think it's risky. And Fiziv is obviously a striker. You know, I think that if you're looking at it from like a sense of foreboding, I guess, or something like that, you think they could have, you know, if they're going to do that, they might have booked him against somebody who might have been a little less of a threat

that way to just knock him out again. But I think that that was maybe the bigger surprise. Other than maybe some of us might thought that the Holloway fight might have been around the corner for Olivera, something like that. So other than that, that was the big surprise to me. But I have to say, like you touched on it, the quick turnaround, especially in your mid-30s, I would love to see a stat to know if this pans out for fighters. I feel like most of the time when we're having this kind of discussion, it happens again. It's one of those situations where you're like, oh, man, that was too soon. he shouldn't have done that. It feels like we've had that kind of conversation more than like,

hey, man, look, he came back from three months being knocked out and look at him. You look great. It's so rare that you see a guy bounce back from something that's kind of that traumatic, you know, on your brain. And especially in Olivera's case where he's had a lot of battles, man. And like you said, he got knocked out worse than this one than he's ever been. That's a lot, man. It strikes me as a red flag. I hope it pans out, but that's a, that's a tough matchup. It's a tough draw against the guy, I think, who feels reborn again, and the division is getting a huge shot to kind of like leapfrog and put himself right back in there.

And it's going to be a, I don't think I'm going to quite be watching through my hands like we always talk about Pizzi, but it has a feel to it that's a little bit like, ooh, I don't know, man. Yeah, it's, well, here's the thing. I was thinking, like, it seems to suit everyone more than it suits Charles, as in it suits the UFC to have this guy headlining event in Brazil it suits Vizoya

like it's a massive opportunity for him and you know a huge huge opportunity in which Ben noted in his article like this is this is like the biggest opportunity biggest name he's probably ever fought gaichi being after that but what do you think his management said about this joke

like do you think like this comes across the table for Charlie and they're immediately like get on this one mate this is a huge opportunity you know you gotta go over there and fight this this guy coming up or do you think it's Oliver just saying like I want to kill these guys I'm still in the mix and sometimes in MMA it's just like man the handlers are the last you know the last line of reason right but I feel like sometimes in MMA especially they're just kind of like where's the money you know or what's the what's the best option right now and they kind of roll with that and I really don't know what they told them but you know if I'm in his camp and it's easy for me to say sitting here but if I'm in his camp I'm probably saying we need to think twice about this my guess is that he wanted to to fight in Brazil. The timing is, you know, what it ends up being. And that's the opponent that's being offered. And they just said, you know, you weigh that out and you're like, I think we

should do it. I feel fine, you know. And obviously that's not, evidence has not showed that that's how it should work. But I really believe in boxing specifically, I know there's been bad boxing decisions too all through the course of history. But in boxing specifically, I feel like there's a little bit more of a, you know, care for your fighter's longevity, you know, or like just like examining tomorrow more than you would just the quick payday that sort of thing

but I really don't know if they told him Charles must have been very made a very convincing argument that he should be on that card right like I feel like he wants to do it and probably they cave into that point

yeah I also think though part of the question right is where are you trying to go realistically in your career at this point as Charles Oliver because is the goal to get back to the top and get another

lightweight title fight because they gotta tell you as long as ilia toporia is the champion with as one-sided as that fight was that seems unlikely right that it seems especially because you just have so many talented fighters at lightweight so it seems tough to get back there and make a convincing case for another title shot when it's still the same champion and if it's not going to be ilia toporia i think a lot of us would think hey the guy who stands a good chance of coming back and getting the belt back would be islam mahachev who he also has lost to. And so I guess what I would want to know is, what do we see as the realistic options? What are we trying to do here? Because if we're trying to just sort of stay in the mix,

stay as a capital G guy in the USC's lightweight division, then, okay, I guess it makes sense to fight somebody like Javs, but otherwise it's like, are we trying to tell ourselves, hey, you get back in there quickly while people are still thinking about you, you win one big one on a fight card that you have to yourself where you get to be the main event, even if it's a fight night. And boom, we're right back in there. Because I don't really see that realistically as being possible. And you know, you hate to keep bringing up the 35 and over curse in the delighter weight classes. But that is kind of a real thing. He's crested that hill at this point. And so I think that the conversation needs to be like, what are we actually trying to

accomplish. And in 35, but in fight years, like he's been fighting, what, since he was what, 20, 21, like he's been in there forever. The whole, uh, Dustin Porier thing going way back in the day. Like, he's been in there for so many, held so many different records. It's a little different too when you're talking about a guy like that than a guy who has maybe, you know, 15 pro fights when he's, you know, got into the game late. Um, so he's taking a lot of damage over the years. And we keep, I know Pizzi, I know we've talked about this before. Like, with him, I think specifically, you're waiting almost like you do with a Justin Gaichi or one of those type of guys where you're like when is that moment where you're like oh man it's over and and did it happen already right

or did it happen already that's kind of the thing and i think that this would only real this would almost reiterate that point if nothing else you know what i mean like if you went in there and got smashed in this fight it would be like okay well the olivera thing is probably it's probably done yeah yeah this is just like as you guys are talking about like we talk about miles on the clock more than we do, what age are these guys. This is 46 professional fight. That's fucking, that is some serious innings right there for Charles.

And honestly, I think the fact that fans and media were kind of having those conversations about Max Holloway and kind of setting them up for one of those Dustin Porre fights, like these are two guys that we really have so much respect for. And I know Max is chasing the title. Like he wants this rematch with Ilya at 155,

even though he's been killed by him as well. but I think we're kind of setting ourselves up for as a feel good fight I know that sounds strange when two guys are bludgeoning each other but like you know we had that feeling when Porriet fought Max Holloway like we were talking about afterwards Chuck

we were watching these guys fight just going like Jesus I love these guys you know both of them fighting beating the piss out here but like ah this rules you know kind of wanted one of them but it does feel like Ben I don't know it feels like a massive opportunity

for Raphael here like this like I don't know how he's getting such a great opportunity, like other than fighting in Brazil, it does feel like a striker finding a guy coming off such a nasty CO. This is a massive, massive deal for him, right? Yeah, and you just look at like the, the opportunities he's gotten so far. Because I do think he's one of those guys where he was putting together a really good run. And then we stopped and we kind of went, hey, man, he lost three fights in a row, man. Usually losing three fights in a row in the UFC means you're just about done.

But then when you actually look at the fights themselves, you know, two close ones against Justin Gaetje and the one against Mateus Gamrott where he hurt his knee. And so it's like, it looks bad on paper, but it's not as bad as all that in reality. And so he very well could come in here, well, Charles Olivera still very, very popular.

People love Charles Oliverer with good reason, you know. He's a fun fighter to watch, has a fun personality. I still think he does not get enough credit for the just absolute style he will show up at a press conference, man. You look at Charles Olivera's outfits through the years, and man, it's... Yeah, especially with a lot of these other guys,

they're showing up in sweats, you know, they're showing up and like some of them are showing up in the fight kit with their name on it and everything. Like, they look like somebody told them while they were sitting in the room watching, you know, real housewives on the hotel TV, and somebody was like, hey, that press conference starts in 15 minutes. And I'm like, oh, let me get down there.

And Charles looks like he is going to see a film premiere that he is starring in. And I appreciate the hell out of it. You know, so like he's got a lot of that stuff, like a lot of personality and style that people love. And so if you roll in there in Brazil and you beat that guy, especially if you're able to knock that guy out. And, you know, we're hungry for some, some fresh faces up there at lightweight. Big moments like that can really propel you up into the conversation. And people start to go, well, all right. Like, here's a guy who presents a little something different

that we haven't seen the champion deal with yet, maybe. I feel like the UFC really likes Raphael, too. Like, even with the three losses. And remember, on the last one, he fills in, fairly late notice for Dan Hooker. And that's kind of a big buzz saw to jump in front of, even though you wanted to avenge that Gaichi loss. But to just jump in there and take that fight was kind of ballsy, man.

But like you said, there were close fights. He had the knee injury. But they then tailor basically a fight card to him out in Azerbaijan, you know, where he's basically, he is the kind of cult hero of the area. Like he goes into this situation. And he did work. I will say that he looked very good in that fight against Bahamandes. But now he, you know, he gets this kind of situation.

You wonder if the UFC feels it owes him a little something or if there's something in play there for him to end up in the situation. or if they just they just think that he got a raw deal ultimately in the end so they're not looking at those losses the same as, you know, Wikipedia does, you know, just the pink. It's like I feel like they kind of favor him a little bit by putting him in this matchup. Absolutely. A man who was favored in a matchup that will be taking place in Chicago next week is Hamzat Shemoyev.

A lot of people thought that DDP, you know, might be reluctant to take this fight. We're going to have a little video here to give us an insight into how the champ is feeling. about the task that's in front of him in the shape of the undefeated Chechen fighter next week in Chicago. My request was, I asked the UFC, and I begged them, actually. I want to fight him, either in Abu Dhabi, fight him in his neck of the woods, like I have been doing, with so many other opponents. And, you know, I've grown quite fond of that. So that's what I want to do.

I wanted to fight Abu Dhabi, Saudi, or any of that region, anywhere in that region, fighting there in front of his own crowd, his people. And they said they want to do Chicago. They let me know a couple of weeks later, okay, they're going to do Chicago. And I thought, well, great. It's a place I haven't seen. It's great. And, you know, for me, it really makes no difference where the fight is, to be honest.

well i mean talking about bad motherfuckers yeah ddp he's he's gearing up to make this man crow already isn't he chuk he just wanted to do it in front of his people that's all i can appreciate it and maybe we overblow this like when we um when we talk about guys like shemaiah of like i feel like sometimes in media mine and also in like just the general fans like you look you build up this boogeyman right like you know like nobody wants to face this guy man he's going to go through everybody and you kind of discount the competitor that's in some of these some of these guys and I feel like when I see a guy like DDP basically saying I want to fight him not I didn't want to just fight him I wanted to fight him in his own backyard you know

it's that Rocky 4 vibe right like where he's like I'll go fight drago out in Russia Christmas Day you know what I mean like he's gonna go face him I love that sort of setup it always tells me something about the the size of the competitor I think it was Dupless he was talking about too being just like a big Michael Jordan fan right wasn't this and he was like reading he said he reads his books about his mindset i mean this is a problem when we were talking about john jones recently i was like we were calling him the john we were calling him the michael jordan of the sport for a long time yet he didn't really have a mindset like michael jordan did with this guy we don't give him the proper like respect in some ways

as being a champion even though he just keeps going in there and doing work and yet he does have that mindset and i can appreciate it man with each time he shows up for these fight cards i feel like I get a better appreciation of that guy. Yeah, I see. And I thought when he said that how he just wanted to see Chicago, I was thinking he wanted to go to the Art Institute. That's very nice. I've been there. He heard, yeah, he heard they got them Van Gogh's up in the Art Institute. And I thought that's why he wanted to go.

But now the Michael Jordan thing makes a little sense. I mean, honestly, think about where he'll be. If he goes out there and he beats Hamsachmaia, especially for a guy, we've been looking at DDP for the last two, three years and going, okay. You won the last one, but surely you will lose the next one. I know. Like, we refuse to believe that he's any good. He looks awkward.

He looks stiff at times. We look at this guy and we keep being like, how do you keep winning fights? Because we feel deep down in our bones that you are not very good. And yet he keeps doing it. And, like, he will have, especially if he beats Tom's out here, he will have beaten in the course of like one year's time, John Strickland, Israel Adasanya, and Hamza Tchmaev. And then if you go back even further, you add the win over Robert Whitaker. He'll basically have beaten anyone who got their hands on the UFC middleweight title at any point over the last, like, several years.

You know, basically everyone since Anderson Silva pretty much, that's incredible, especially for a guy who we keep acting like we always think the next one is where he's going to be finally exposed. And we're doing it again here. You know we are. Like everybody's looking at this one and being like, all right. Hamz not going to smash you. Like he stylistically, he's a bad matchup for you. Like this is the one where the DDP train finally gets derailed. Is it though?

Yeah. You know what's funny is he is one of those dudes that you look at him and you see the opponent. Like you think about it in retrospect, yeah, with the opponent. So it's like with Sean Strickland, well, Sean Strickland sucks, man. He should have never even been there, you know, when he fought Whitaker. Well, you know, Whitaker is just long in the tooth now. Like he's always, you know, and then same with Izzy, right? Like, it was just kind of always about the narrative being that he's catching these dudes and whatever.

And, you know, it would probably happen here because you'd be like, oh, he got exposed. Homsai got exposed. I mean, you know, it's one of those fighters for whatever reason that you like to, the narrative tends to go to the other guy, either being too old, wash, never was, or, you know, over. rated. But I'm with you 100%. I think the real eye-opener was that Whitaker fight because he was a pretty big underdog, if I remember going into that fight. And just seeing him, you know, go through Whitaker who nobody had really done, you know, like in that kind of fashion, it told me like, okay, I'm under, I've been underrating this guy. And so I feel like with each time, you get a bigger appreciation, but you also just see that he's a much harder route than we understood, you know,

Because I think a lot of us, I used to say this a lot. Like, he looked to me, was it the Brunson fight? Like, there was a fight where he just, he goes forward. I said he was on like toddler legs going downhill. Like, he's just, it looks like he's, uh, he has no control. Like, yeah, he, like, he doesn't even have full control of his bodily motion sometimes. But somehow it packages, you know, into like, uh, into like something very hard to deal with. And like, he's getting it done regardless.

He's kind of like sharpened those tools. He no longer seems as reckless to me. which could be good or bad it has to play out but man I just think that he's just perpetually unsung it's very strange but I hope if he does go through this one to me this would be fairly legendary in my mind like that's a big one because we've we've had this guy Hamzot forever right like he felt inevitable for like the last four or five years so for him to go through a guy like that man I I'm not gonna I'm not sleeping on DDP anymore yeah it's uh it's interesting talking about one's

song. You know, we have to refer to President Donald Trump getting Hamzachimae into the US. First time in three years, Ben. I mean, this must figure out with right. That was song. This is amazing. We thought we would see the political arm of the UFC flexed. We have, and we have seen it once again. It's crazy. Three years it took since that the fight against Holland. The one that went crazy. The Diaz, Ferguson situation and all that. That's the last time we had him here. He's coming

back. He doesn't seem completely clear on what's happening. I believe we have a quote here, don't we on our Jordan? From the grey hands edge. Everyone knows I didn't have the visa to the US. That's why I fought only once in Abu Dhabi. So now

Donald Trump is here. We go for fights. That is as much of a clarification as I believe we will get on this. But yeah, interesting times. for the UFC having such a strong political leaning these days that they can make things happen like this

in the blink of an eye. Yeah, I also think that it was interesting. He also noted one of those quotes. I'll read this one where they were asking him like if he would maybe be one of the options to fight at this proposed White House event where he said, look at my face. I don't think so.

They would deport me to an immigrant camp or whatever. I'm an athlete as far as when all my life I've been trained. You know, some people put me in a position like political shit and break my visa down. And I don't know why. I'm just doing for my family, fighting training. Athletes don't have to be with politics. I'm not connected.

And, you know, I... It's probably the mispolitical guy going right now. I have some sympathy for this, especially for, like, guys like the Chechen fighters. Because I remember doing an interview with a fighter some years back where he was also, held up as a guy where Hamzaan Kadirov would be out there posting pictures of him with this guy gifting him and yeah like giving him

stuff you posting him on social media and clearly Kadirov you can see was using the MMA team as a recruitment tool for his own sort of like private roaming militia to do all sorts of heinous stuff and so we could very easily look at it and be like this is bad this is a bad guy why do you want to paled up with this guy. And I was asking him some questions about, like, hey, do you actually

like this guy and support his politics or what? And his responses were very tepid, I feel like, like, he was not critical, but he was not super, uh, enthusiastic about it. And then after we got off the phone, his manager, he didn't want to get offed. Exactly. Well, like, he called me separately after we got off the phone and was like, hey, look, this is sensitive. Uh, not only just because it's like, he's out of Chechnya, but his. family isn't. And if he is even seen as being insufficiently pro Kadeirov in something like this, this is the kind of thing that could put his family at risk. So be careful how you handle this. And I was just like, you know what, fair enough. I do, they're in a different situation.

Somebody here where it's like they make the choice very much to align themselves politically. And we see, you know, for the UFC, it works out because obviously we all knew, I think, that the UFC, part of the benefit of turning your paper views into pro-Trump propaganda and just turning the volume up on that so much in recent months, the benefit to you should be that you could call up and be like, hey, we want to get this guy in the country and they just go, no problem, you know? And so it's not a surprise to me that it has worked out that way for Hamzot. I do think, though, Chuck, you and your column raised some good points about not only that aspect of it,

but just that he has not been the most reliable or active guy for other reasons as well. You just don't, if he's champion, how much will we actually get to see him? Yeah, that's the, like, to me, when I was thinking about it, and I don't know how you guys feel. I always feel like when they're talking, when you're talking about Hamzot, it started off like, oh, man, he's going to fight every other week. You know, this guy's going to be flying through everybody. But as time has gone on, it feels so hypothetical even when they book them. And I know there's some big spots, too. like that's what you're what you're mentioning is they put him in that first saudi arabia fight which obviously we've been talking about the saudi money and ufc finally getting involved and they they choose to put him on that card against robert whittaker he falls off of that card right and he gets he gets replaced by you know a very capable opponent but at the same time like a guy that nobody is talking about um and i think that that that was like a big blow and then you look at like his his task was obviously to do away with uh with nate diaz and i think that um

That drew a lot of, obviously, like, everybody knew what was going on there, and it had a lot of eyeballs, and then that situation plays out where he's egregiously not going to make the weight. He's at an emergency room, and he doesn't go there. And then you take into, like, you know, traditionally, it's just very difficult, like, when the guys are observing Ramadan and those types of things for timing to work out. And if you factor all of those types of things in, you're like, he may maintain one fight a year. I think that's just kind of the That's kind of the fuss factor He brings to the table He says he won't

Like I think he believes That he'll be able to fight Like a normal champion But that is something the UFC has to consider If this is truly the beginning You know next week If it's the beginning of the Hamzot era What does that look like

Are we going to bottleneck in that You know what I mean In that in that division Because he's not fighting enough It's a legit thing you have to think about Yeah Yeah No you're all raising great

points and I've had a bit of an experience with that as well with the the Kadirov stuff as well Ben like remember I interviewed a guy he's you know many many years ago and he had been photographed in such a way and he told me personally he's like so what do you think we just don't react to that and that's fine you know like do you think they you know send you all this stuff and you just don't do anything and everyone's okay with that you know like it's it's a very very difficult situation and even we had Artem Loboff on, well, Ariel had him on his show last week, and he was kind of explaining how when Zubaira Tugov shows up on Instagram with Ramzan Kadirov, and they're saying,

when are you coming to Grosny to fight? He's like, well, you don't really not reply to it. You can't just go like, ah, yeah, same old post, you know, you better get on there and you better acknowledge that this guy is talking to you. You know, it is. And you look at, like, there's parallels too in fight sports history, like, Mack Schmelling is kind of the classic example where the Nazis wanted to hold up Max Schmelling and be like, look, example of why the Aryan race is superior. He went over there. He knocked out Joe Lewis. This proves absolutely everything we were saying. And Schmelling had said, you know, for years afterwards and even like at the time was sending to friends like, I'm not down with this. I don't. I do not agree with what they're doing. And he had been invited to have dinner with Hitler and had said no. And then maybe it was. was after he beat Joe Lewis, the invitation came back a little stronger the next time. And he said later that, you know, somebody told him, somebody in his inner circle kind of told him, like, you can maybe refuse dinner with the fewer wants. You can't do it twice. And so we went. And like,

allowed himself to be used that way and, and, uh, regretted it later and, you know, after, uh, World War II was over. He moved to the United States and, uh, worked for one of the, the big car companies in Detroit for, uh, most of the rest of his life, but always regretted, uh, the way he had allowed himself to be used there, but also realized I'm in a tough position. Yeah. I mean, Bryce Mitchell would have welcomed this situation, Ben.

Like, he could have found a nice fishing hole somewhere. See, that's the difference. It's like, some people are out here being like, yes, please.

And other people are out here, you know, like the Simpsons meme smithers in the gun to the back where they're just gritting their teeth and going like, yeah, I'm happy to be here.

I mean, in some, what was it a few years ago? I guess it's been like 10 years ago when the Kidera, like there was American fighters. I forget who all it was, but they're all showed up. Remember this? Like, it was a big. It was Wydeningh. Yeah. Frank Mir was there.

I remember Justin Gaich made the classic mistake afterward where like people were criticizing him on Twitter for having gone there and he was saying when, when did I ever go? And they're like, bro, we saw you. We saw the pictures. And he said, show me. And they showed him. And that's

that's the mistake you make sometimes you tell the internet to show you. It'll sometimes show you. Jesus. It's, is it fair to say that, like, we're, we're pretty excited for 319, though. I feel like some, some pay-per-views have come and gone this year, and we're kind of like, well, that happened, you know, that definitely happened. But I do feel like Shemoyev, that this countdown, I was shocked, I was reading your column today, show, and I went down and I looked at his record, I'm shocked, 14 and 0 is all he is.

I know. And considering, like, when he came in there, as you mentioned, that, like, 10 days just destroying two dudes or whatever it was, like two weeks. It was like he's going to fight every two weeks. And we're stuck on kind of 14 and 0 now. I am excited to see this. Like there is a lot of reasons. Like, DDP, as you say, like this, there's a lot of guys tipping DDP. As we've said before, it's like fighting a wardrobe.

Like, it's going to be very difficult for Shemaya have to do some things he's done to other guys to DDP. Is it fair to say we've got a bit of a buzz on for this one, Chuck? Yeah, I think so, man. I mean, this is partially, maybe it is the scarcity of it. But like, the Shemaya of thing, you've been, we've been impending on this for a long time. Like, you just kind of wait to see for him, you know, to get his big shot. Well, this is it. And he does have a very crazy aura when it comes to the fight game.

I think he still carries that. We know it's, we know it's BS because we've been in the fight game forever. But like to a casual lot, like the broader audience, the sheen of invincibility where it's like, people think that he's indestructible if you're paying attention. And he has been largely. And so like the big suspicion, right, is, well, what happens? And Ben has talked about this. We even talked about it a lot in the last, when he was fighting.

Whittaker, you're like, well, Bobby Nichols gets through that first round, maybe first round and a half, it turns into his fight. And I think that that is still the suspicion. Obviously, Whitaker did not get through the first round, and his, you know, four of his teeth ended up in the back. But it's like... Famously. But yeah, so it's like, you're in a situation now

where you're like, okay, DDP, who's like this big momentum guy who I think is fairly strategic in this sort of thing, what happens if he does? And I think that that is a massive intrigue. Like, when you have some I guess truth, people are waiting to be exposed or to see if it's if it holds up uh that's definitely in play for this

fight so it's a good one man i think it was one of those ones when they when they first make it you just you know you put it away and then as you keep revisiting it there you're like fairly fascinating right like the more you think about the fight the more it becomes more fascinating yeah and it's a good card overall honestly which is something we have not been able to say like when you look at it i had the the kind of shock of looking at the fight card recently and go on wait a minute i know all these people i i know who they are like yeah like like even as you go down you go down the fight card normally what we would be looking at is like okay usually got a good man event uh often a good co-main event is the main card filled out with

fights between people we know where the stakes that we're familiar with and we kind of know what we're doing here and why these fights matters and this time you look down there and you go yeah i i can tell you what was going on with every fight in the main hard. What I'm not used to in this current age is being able to look down onto the prelims and start having the same kind of feeling. You look, everybody got a Wikipedia page on this one. You know, like, you look all the way down and you're just kind of like, yeah, like I get it. I get this feels like how it used to be, you know, eight, nine years ago. And so like that is a bit of a surprise here. There's been times you look at the name. It's not like you just don't even recognize the fighter,

but you're like, wait a minute, is that a country? Like you read where they're from me. Like, is that real? Is that a made-up place? Or how many times have you looked at some of the pairings and been like, we haven't done this three times already? That is true. It just feels like one of those fights in the division where you just kind of went like, yeah, all right. Like two veterans.

Like each other eventually, yeah. Two veterans on the tapology that are like 46th and like 55th, you know. Yeah, exactly. It was Benile Daryush and Hanato Moikano. I believe that you were talking about that one, right? Ben, you were like, these guys, this must be the quadrilogy. I felt that way when I saw Mike, Tiesa and Cort McGee were going to fight.

And I was just like, we haven't done this a bunch of times? You'd seen enough from both, though, at that point to be like, I know. You could have really easily got me to believe that, you know, or even honestly, you can feel somewhere where you see like Neil Magny and Easy Dos Santos fighting. I'm just like, if you told me that we were finally completing, you know, the, the, the trilogy between these guys, I would believe that. I mean, for Magnet, it's like completing the whole welterweight picture. like he's fought them all now at this point right like he's filled it like a bingo card but i i do think

that like having guys like erin pico like we we've talked about this before when they had pit bull like you get a guy like that who comes over especially at 28 years old um who we'd followed for so long as a kind of a blue chip prospect originally one of the faces like back then i remember how what a big deal that was when bellator signed him because they were kind of stockpiling these collegiate wrestlers these really decorated wrestlers and putting him in there like this is the smart way to go about business. He loses that first fight ever against at Madison Square Garden against Zach Freeman.

And from that point on, I feel like he's kind of lost some of the, you know, that whatever it was that he came in there with. But he's persevered and he's won a lot of fights and he was on a good role. I think you put him on a like a fight card like this. It would have been a lot of fun to see in the Evalov fight. But I think that

Lorone Murphy, given where he's at, is very similar. A guy that isn't, you know, they're not quite lifting up to the title, but they're kind of making it hard for him get there and they put Aaron Pico in there. That's a fun fight. You know what I mean? So you get that. I think that's a good co-main event. And then, you know, you know, guys like Paige and others like that. I just feel like there's good bang for your buck on the pay-per-view. Absolutely. No, without a doubt, um, on the latest episode of retirements that we didn't see being

reversed. And we got Artem Loboff stepping out guys after a long time on the sidelines. He was on Ariel's show this week. And I do know Artem very well. I've covered him since he, a very early on in his pro career. Honestly, he said to me that he was coming back and I was like, I don't know if that's a good idea, buddy. And he was like, well, I've already started the contract. That's a very Russian hammer thing to say. I got to say, the big takeaway from me from this interview is like,

you know, he still got that personality. Like, I mean, obviously Artem is not going to be celebrated for his record. You know, people aren't going to be like, well, like, look at this. Like, he has always brought something to the fight game, though, and the amount of phone calls I got the day after this interview was pretty crazy. But it's interesting that when this legal thing started with Connor, Connor was obviously, he was in his voice memo on X era at the time. Oh, no. He was given a lot of, yeah, he was saying a lot of things about Artem and it felt like it was a lot of losses, like, you know, public perception losses for Artem back to back to back. man, he went on Ariel's show

and as he's saying this stuff I'm kind of like, I don't know how Artem's legal team are going to feel about him telling him every aspect of this situation. But looking through the comments and looking at the live chat, I feel like he's really turned people around here. Like I felt

like as I was watching it, a lot of people were suddenly like Jesus, it sounds like Arthames had a rough old time with this situation. He's also he is going to fight Zubyro took hug off the person we were referring to earlier with the Ramzan Kadirov. Instagram posts on October 3rd, that is about seven years after we're initially meant

to fight. It also seems to be, as far as Habib has said, as far as Artem said in the interview, it seems that there is a very strong possibility that we will be finally getting the Paul Hughes rematch against champion Usman and Magamatov. It has not been confirmed yet, but seems like a good old card. And I was just wondering, like, were you? shocked by this at all chuk like the return of the hammer seemingly out of nowhere not shocked i mean like most these guys you know yeah there would only be a couple guys that would actually

shocked me i thought abe himself was like okay i'm coming back i'd be a little shocked just because of we we've talked about how principled he is and his decision and all this um but not really i think that you know what is artem's like 30 he's in his late 30s he's not like he's some of these what is he 39 something like that so i mean i mean that's obviously i mean that's obviously obviously an upper age there, but like some guys do this and they're in their 40s and like Pacquiao just did and you're like, man, are you sure you want to do this? I feel like he probably is okay to go in here. You mentioned him being kind of, you know, turning the sentiment. How much of that, though, is like just McGregor going the opposite way? Because I think when this stuff

was first happening, it was, McGregor was still, you know, still held, I think, 75, 80, 85% in a positive of light. Like most people still were seeing him as Connor McGregor. I don't think that you know, so like all the things that have happened subsequently, like just within that string time, like have just been such a, you know, a disaster for Conne McGregor that I feel like the sentiment would, it almost has to switch, doesn't it? Yeah. No, that's, that's what I was thinking too, because it's like, if you're on the opposite side of Connor McGregor, at a certain point, we go, that must mean that you're okay. It's true. I call it to Paul, use effect. I call it the Paul use effect.

Exactly, though. It's true. You actually have a column up about retirement was this week's mailbag, Ben. But I'm wondering, as far as Chuck has referenced, Habib, you had said, I believe, a couple of weeks

ago that you'd put Porre in the same league as Habib in terms of retirements, like how much you believe them to be true. Is this, is this still the feeling you have? About Porier? Yeah, I mean, I do think, I think we were talking about on the spectrum where you have Habib on one end and you have John Jones on the other. That's right.

Who's retired? That is literally both. That is the extreme of both sides, yes. And I do think that Porre is still way more on the Habib and the spectrum than the John Jones. Just because I think that it's, for me, when you see people where fighting has become so much of their identity and it's all they really have. have. I mean, financial concerns will obviously make some people think twice about it. But for the people who, that's not the thing that's going to get them back in the cage, I do think one of the things that does get them back in the cage sometimes is they don't have anything else

in their life. And they don't know who they are without this. And I've heard so many fighters, I've talked to so many fighters over the years who have dealt with the difficult parts of retirement, both those who did stay retired and those who didn't, where they talk about how you go through an identity crisis because you used to be known as so-and-so the fighter. And it's not the same to be known as so-and-so who used to be a fighter. People don't treat you the same. And, you know, Chil Sona and I remember talking about how the hardest part for him was he realized how much of his social life was the gym, going down there, the gym, being with the guys,

you know, not just the training and the working out, but that, you know, you train, you work out, and then you stand around on the mats and you bullshit for 20, 30 minutes before you get in the car and go home. And then you don't realize at the time you take that for granted. This is time with your friends. This is like a necessary social outlet that you have. And it's not like you can't go to the gym and train afterwards. But I also remember talking to Julie Kedzy about this, where she was saying right after she retired, she's still at the gym. She was working still at Greg Jackson's gym. And it was training with everybody. But she said you kind of looked over on the mats one day and saw all the women who were on the fight team and they're all sitting in a circle after practice talking

with each other, you know, talking about what they'd just been doing and practice and sparring and whatnot. And it kind of hit her like, I'm still here, but I'm on the outside of that. And she felt that very clearly. And it was like, okay, here's a moment where it really hits home. And I think that for a lot of people, if they can't find something else, if they can't figure out who they are without that, they're way more likely to come back just because it feels like such a void that they never learn how to fill. I don't feel like Dustin Poy is one of those guys who's going to have that problem. He seems like a pretty fully developed human being just in general.

And so that's what makes me think that. And plus, he's smart. He's smart enough and been in this game long enough to know if you come back, what would they do with you? What would the USC think you were good for? And do you want to be that for them? And I think he would realize the answer is no. Yeah, I mean, he was always like, do I have to start again?

Like he kind of understood, you know, like almost Sisyphus type thing. we were like, I've already pushed it up there and it keeps wrong. I can't do it again. I'm not going to do all that. And I think that it's one of those, like he also just seems like such a non-bullshit type of guy. Like, if he's out of, he's out of, he's has other things going on. You were talking about that though, man.

And I was like, that is so true, like the social lives. But you think about like the old boxers. Because before there was MMA and I know Ben, you like the old boxing history. A lot of those dudes, like, they were just so associated to their towns and to their, you know, to their gyms. And they became like these staples. So what did they do? They ended up like opening bars

Where they did something They had to just be with their name But it was such a shift even for them Or they'd be rolled out at every little pageant Or whatever it is they would get they would get People would get you know Here's Joe Lewis or whatever it is For every single event around the area

And I think Those days are kind of gone Like I don't really think MMA has that same kind of appeal I think there's too many fighters It's too ubiquitous people have too many social Like the social handles And the social media changes

so much of the mystique of what happens in the game and all that stuff. So you hear it all the time, man. Like guys just, they're so regimented. They go to the gym and they do all this stuff. And once you stop that, you're like, what am I? Like a little time goes by and you're like, what am I doing? I need to do something.

I'm not doing what I was doing. They lose that, that sense of identity goes away. It's a strong argument for fighters open in restaurants like Jack Dempsey did. I mean, because that was something where, like, people would talk about that later where it was just like part of the appeal of Jack Dempsey's restaurant in Manhattan was that you could go there and Jack Dempsey

probably going to be there. I know. You know, like he at stories. Yeah, at some point he's going to show up, he's going to walk through the crowd, he's going to shake hands, he's going to go around and so it's like that was something, you know, and other boxers who I read would even sort of like look down on that a little bit. They're like they're putting them in the window like, you know, like

a mannequin to kind of like beckon you over. But like there is something like he still gets to be Jack Dempsey that way and it still holds an appeal. Maybe this is what we need is like. You used to hear stories about people Yeah Well I mean you should

But like you used to have stories about Sugar Ray Robinson Like you know driving by his place in Harlem If the pink Cadillac was out there man You knew business was booming over there at that moment He was there Remember like even I think Lewis ended up being like a professional greeter At one of the casinos in Los Angeles

That's not It's I heard There's a much sadder story by the way of Jake Lamato Turning out to be a bouncer at a strip club And him Kind of fulfilling the same sort of role And he was one of those guys, though, that looked down. He was like, oh, Jack Dempsey, look at what they're selling.

Here I know what we're selling. We're selling tits. Fair play. Jake never goes out of demand either, you know. Another classic quote from the Raging Bull. I was saying that, like, I heard, I know it's a different thing. It's not a, it's not a combat sport. But I heard Peter Schmichel, a famous Danish goalkeeper, a real stoic guy.

And I didn't really expect him to say something really profound about retirement. And he said, as an athlete, you'd die twice. And I was like, oh, shit. And he was like, I had to, like, my, the athlete version of Peter Schmichael died. And I had to make peace with that over a number of years before I could become Peter Schmichael the human again. And I was like, what the fuck? Makes sense, though. But it's, it's very profound, I thought.

Like, to hear this very stoic, doesn't say a lot of things, this guy just coming out with this piece of poetry in the middle of this interview. I was like, whoa, that is fucking, I wasn't. ready for that one Pete. I also think that part of it for a lot of people is, and I've heard so many fighters say this, is they're like, while you're fighting, you don't have to ever ask yourself, what am I doing? You know what you're doing. Like, you're waking up every day and you're trying to be a better fighter. And when you have a fight sign, you're waking up every day and you're going, the goal of today is to take one step further in the project of beating this guy on, you know, August 19th or whatever it is. Yeah, there's always an

anchored date that you're going towards. And you get to live your life in these kind of manageable chunks. And at the end of that, there's going to be a past, fail test where it hurts a lot to lose, feels great to win. But either way, you're going to kind of get a finality and an answer. And then you're going to get to start with the next one. And life in general does not offer us that much those kinds of situations. It does not give you these like easy like yes or no. You did it or you didn't. Try again. Like it's just kind of ongoing and open ended. And that's a tougher thing to deal with, especially if you have to wake up and be like, so what am I doing today? What am I doing with the next 10 years? That, I think, is a tougher adjustment for a lot of people

because even when you felt like training camp was terrible and you didn't want to get up and go to the gym and you're beating yourself down, at least you knew what I'm doing. Like, that question is answered for you. And when you take that away, a lot of people kind of get unmoored and it's understandable. I remember even, like, a number of fighters have said this to me, just on on that point what you're saying when you have something you're gearing your life towards guys can win a fight and be morbidly depressed on the aftermath of it because they don't

have that guiding light in their life so it's a remember Volcanowski that was like the when he was like yeah he he kind of pointed this out as an active fighter like and this is why he was saying he was saying like saying yes and staying active is because he didn't want those idle

moments creeped into his life he didn't want to have those contemplations which is that tells you a lot right and I think that there are more Volkanovsky's out there than we realize. It also says maybe not like, I don't know how long you can just run from it. Like how long you just fill the hours. But I don't know. I'm sure you guys can relate to this too.

You ever have like a story you're working on that takes a long time that you're tracking down sources, you're tracking down information, you're really working on it for a long time. And you get really into it. You get really engrossing it. And it's stressful, like trying to finish it by the deadline, trying to get it out. You get it out. You publish it. people say, good job or you suck or whatever.

But then you feel a little bit of an emptiness because you were like, oh, I didn't realize how much like this was a thing that I had that I was looking forward to. And now it's over. And I got to find another one. And there's sort of like an emptiness after that. And especially if it's like your entire identity is tied up in that thing. And that's how other people know you. And sometimes it feels like they're, are they being nice to you because they like you?

Are they being nice to you because they want to be friends with the fighter who's on TV? and you take all that away kind of suddenly and that could be a big adjustment. That's true of authors a lot. You hear that, you know, where they're writing a book for years, like it takes them a long time. And then once it's finally done,

you know, there's this feeling of bereft like what now, you know, because they've been carrying it. And I also think that like there's something about putting yourself through hell, you know, that you emerge on the other side that makes you, it gives you that euphoria on the other end where you're like, I did it though. I did this whole thing. And I think that that's just a common.

cycle, you know, a cycle for fighters to go through it. A lot of times they're happy even in losses because they went through it. You know what I mean? Like they gave it their all or whatever. They still get that reward at the end. Yeah. We had John S. Nashon last week, well, you were off gallivanting back.

And he was speaking about the amendment that TKO boxing, I believe Luke Thomas is called a bespoke piece of legislation that TKO boxing are trying to Oshirt. through for their new UBO, baby, the Unified Boxing Organization. But listen, maybe we got things wrong because TKO have come out and they've smoothed over some misconceptions.

Oh, yeah, what they say, see, too. Here we go. The Fox shouldn't be allowed in the hen house, says Fox. What we are proposing is adding some additional language that is legislation that will allow for what I'll call UFC-style unified organizations for the promotion of boxing events. So there you go, it's York, okay? Count the fuck down. Everything's okay.

We haven't heard from you, folks. Tell us how you feel about this whole misadventure. I mean, to quote one of my favorite movies of the last, like, 10 or 15 years, Bridge of Spies, which one of those movies. Damn, I thought it was going to be showgirls. Terrible title, great movie. He would say that if it were true and also if it were not. That's what he's going to say there. But also, like, especially he, the framing that he's trying to add is like, hey, we're not undercutting this legislation.

We're not taking away anything of it. We're just adding to it. But what you are adding to it is something that allows you to do something that you couldn't previously do. So it's like you're trying to act like we're not, we're diminishing this at all, except that you are. Like, you're adding language that say you specifically can do the exact thing you want to do that this legislation would have stopped you. from doing before. And I understand why they want to do it. I also think that it's a little bit,

the time tells you where we are just generally because they just came out of this antitrust lawsuit, right? Where you're accused of trying to own an entire sport and make it so that nobody else can enter and compete. You settled that lawsuit. You come right out of it. And then you kind of are looking around going, what other sport could we do this to?

Like what other sport could we go and do this in? and you're looking at boxing as an example. It's like, maybe we could take over that one next. Like, that's obviously what they would like to do. And sure, they're going to say this stuff about, like, the legislation, but, you know, hey, it's not as bad as you guys think. But it's also like the same thing. I asked when they kept talking, sort of dipping their toe in the water earlier

and saying, oh, might have to do something about the Ali Act. And it's just like, what does it say about what you want to do if the legislation put in place to protect fighters? stops you from getting involved in the sport. Like that that seems obvious to me that what they're doing is they're just being like all this like all these years were

MMA fighters wanted to go to boxing. Boxers didn't want to come to MMA. You know? And it's there's a reason. And the reason was just like they and boxers enjoy a lot more freedom. The money at the top is so, so much better. You know, you go to some of those championship boxers and be like, hey, would you like to sign

on for six fights with the U.S. see they get to veto anything else you do uh and they also keep almost all of the money like no that's a bad deal compared to what they were getting and now they want to bring that to boxing so yeah you're going to say all this stuff like oh no it's fine you know the the sheep uh the wolf and sheep's clothing is this going to just here to graze like the rest of you don't know nothing to see here but it's obvious like what they're doing i think i thought that the boxers didn't want come over because of jujitsu yeah That was what I heard.

Here they were afraid. I mean, hey, if you were going to pay them $25 million to come over here and have to deal with a triangle choke, they're putting on that ghee, man. Like, that wasn't the issue. It's interesting just watching the discourse around this because it feels like boxing isn't bracing itself in the way that MMA feels it should. You know, I'm reading a lot of reports where it's like the MMA Foreers Association, those guys are coming through and they're going to be in, like, Like, you need to get ready for, like, this is not a joke. Like, this is going to change everything about your sport. They're going to try and monopolize boxing.

You guys have it a pretty good situation here. I can't remember where, I think Eric McGracken was talking about, who does great work on this, the legal kind of stuff around MMA. I think he was talking about, like, the mic being wrestled off people who are trying to speak about this at a conference recently. Like, I mean, I don't know. Like, it's, it feels like everybody in this sport kind of knows what they're trying. to do but boxing is kind of embracing it um not embracing it but allowing it and i remember when

this first came out that turkey ala sheik was joining forces with dana white and they were going to take over boxing and i was like there's no way it's going to be this easy like hern warren all these guys are going to stand up and look they are saying things but is it what's crazy to me is it seems like even though they're saying things it still feels as though they're going to be allowed to be walk right through this door and at least have an attempt at taking over this sport completely. I'm I'm out being a complete catastrophes or failing this right joke? I don't know, man, but do you sometimes think that like, like, are we talking about like sometimes fans, perceptions too about like you don't know what's coming your way, you don't understand? Like,

I feel like we've been, we've been more intertwined, I guess, with the UFC's politics and the way they've handled business than boxing fans are to their sport. It's very sure. strange and I don't know if it's just because the barrier of entry is just very different for boxing. Obviously the different sanctioning bodies like the ALEC does complicate it because now you have a lot of, you have four

major titles or you have different weight classes and sometimes I feel like it's within that chaos of the way, you know, just the structure or the lack thereof, the people are like, well, it might simplify things. You know what I mean? Like I feel like sometimes they just look at it as simple as that.

Like, well, it could make it, you know, UFC is kind of easier to follow in this sense. You know what I mean? Or you get the fights you want because of this. I wonder if that plays a factor in this. But in some point, I think that just the general chaos that people are used to dealing in boxing does play a role in all of that.

If you could only shop at the company store, that would also simplify things, wouldn't it? It would. Yeah. It's going to be interesting to see a play out. It feels a bit messy at the moment, and I think it will continue to be. and before we move on to talk

about this week's action we had a bit of a conversation about topology's new ranking system on the Ariel Loani show Ben folks feverishly trying to get in the mix Didn't have a hotline to call That's it.

You need a call in number So I could be like We're going to Ben from Missoula Who has something to say Shut the fuck up, Pizzi, shut the fuck up That's how you used to call in all the time Like didn't you on the MMA hour

Back in the day? I felt like you did I remember one time We were like in a tunnel. I'm on a tunnel. I'm in a... You remember that? I remember that too, yeah.

Tell us, Ben, were we too harsh on Topology's new attempt? We didn't quite like the 205 rankings. We really didn't like the well-to-weight rankings. And well, we really got pissed off about the lightweight rankings given that Islam Makashchev wasn't ranked number one. Please, please correct the course. Well, I mean, for one thing, some of the stuff that I found out in talking to Gregory

sacks from typology about just like how they're doing it. I do appreciate that they just do champion of the division as number one. Like the way the UFC does

where it's just like you get the C at the top for like the champion. And then somebody else can say I'm the number one guy in the division but you're not the champion. So how does that supposed to work? And I understand why they like to do it that way because one thing gives you 16 people in the top 15.

But also that it allows you to bump everybody's numbers up and put a number one next. to somebody's name when they're fighting for the title makes it really look like it's whether it really is or not, you know, number one versus number two in the division. But it's interesting to me, I appreciate what they're trying to do in terms of just sort of taken vibes out of the equation because we've seen, we're highly susceptible to vibes in this sport.

We go out there, you win a fight, you look really good doing it. We get very excited about you by Monday and we're like, this guy's all right. rocket ship to the top. Is it the greatest ever? Yeah. Whatever we saw last, it really sticks with us. And I appreciate an effort to kind of take that out of it and to make it into an automated system.

The problem or like the challenge, I guess, is when you're trying to make an automated system for a sport like this where there's only so many actual inputs, like data inputs you can have in terms of just like wins, losses, what round you want in, what your method of victory was. who you beat, who they beat, you're trying to sort of like get a picture based on that. And one thing he said to me that I felt was important to know, because I was asking, hey, what about some of these fights we've seen where guy loses, but he was in a tough fight that we didn't expect it.

We expected him to get blown out. He didn't get blown out. He went to a decision. He looked good. He had some moments. We even felt like, hey, if there were two more rounds, maybe he would have won. Can the, the computer, can the automated system, the algorithm account for that? And he was basically like, no, the computer or the algorithm doesn't watch the fights.

It can't really do that. And so there are going to be those kinds of problems in it. Like where do you put the weight? What means what? And I think a good example of how this could affect things is where you saw, you know, Tattoo Retaira's fight where he was essentially put in a fight where no matter what he did, the algorithm was not going to move him up, you know. And you can argue about that, like, is that right or not?

because he's fighting a short notice opponent who's ranked way down and he looked really good on the U.S.C. Right? But like, it doesn't matter what you do. If you're in that situation, you go out there if you levitate across the cage, kick him in his head and his head explodes.

Yeah, like the algorithm doesn't see that. So it's just going to be like, at the nuance, yeah. You beat the guy you were supposed to beat and you were supposed to beat him easily and you did. There was no way for you to move up in that system. And so, like, I do think that. that that's going to be a challenge

for something. And like one of the reasons they talked about the model that they use for chess and tennis and stuff. And one of the reasons that it works for that is because there's so many more competitions. There's so much more data to use. And MMA fighters, you know, you have five

fights in the UFC. That could be your entire career in the UFC. And often it's not even that many. So it's like you have to find a way to try to do this without having as much to draw from. And I do think that that's Always going to be tricky. To me, the most interesting thing about it is not just looking at the top 10.

You're right. You can look at the top 10 of some of those divisions and be like, what's going on here? And the only way to know that your algorithm is working properly is to look at what it spits out and go, does this seem right? Based on our preconceived idea of what the ranking should be. But to me, the most interesting part is that it ranks every single fighter in the UFC. Because there's some of those guys right now where all they know is that they're not in the top 15. Right. This is the thing is.

Yeah, like they know they're out there somewhere. Yeah, and they probably think they're around 20. Right. Yeah. Everyone thinks they're around 20. I'm sure, like, especially in a division where you look at like lightweight or something where there's, you know, like 70, 80 people or whatever, maybe like 90 something people. It also shows you how many fighters there are in some divisions and how few there are. There's like 28 women's bantam weights or something.

But there are probably 30 people at lightweight who think, I'm somewhere between 16 and 25. And one or two wins, one or two wins, and I'm right there. And I do think it'll be interesting to see how some of those guys, once they can see it, and especially the UFC comes to you and be like, we want you to fight this guy. Neither one of you are ranked. You both lost your last fight. What do you think? And they might before have looked at it and been like, yeah, sure, that makes sense.

And now if you look at it. Right. And you're 29th. And he's 45th in the topology, like automated rankings. You go, no way. That's, I got nothing to gave in this. And, I mean, again, I'd love to be a fly on the wall. Unless you're Chris Duncan.

Did it last week, baby. Come on, Chris. If you're a fly on the wall for the UFC negotiations where somebody says, hey, we want you to take this fight, and somebody tries to reference the tapology automated rankings for a reason why they won't take it, man, Sean Shelby is going to reach through the phone and strangle you. So, like, that's not going to be going to happen. You know.

Yeah. But you pointed out like Jeremy Stevens. I forget what number he was like 83rd or something like that. And you're like, oh, my God, what a slap in the face that must. of him. And yet, he's somebody where, like, Chad, Chad Dundas pointed this out to me when we were doing the co-main event this week where he was like, the UFC just seems to like him. Dana seems to like him. So it's like, for the UFC's perception, if he went out there and knocked a couple of people out, they'd be like, all right, Jeremy Stevens. He's, he's great trained from hell.

And even though the rankings wouldn't tell you that. And so, like, I also think it could be interesting for fans, especially with some of these absolute dog poop fight night events at the apex where you're looking at some of these fights and you're going, what even are we doing? Why would I want? And like, if they give you something where they say, hey, this one is number 41 versus

number 43, we're seeing who could break into the 30s here, you guys. Like, at least that's something. At least it gives you some kind of context to like understand what we're even doing. I will say that in my, in my defense from a large paning of the

topology situation, isn't that what rankings are four. Isn't it for us all to sit around and be like, this is fucking, that is, that is the beauty of a ranking system. So topology, I was just christening the new rankings with some with some derogatory noises directed at the situation. I did say, I think it's great. It's an innovation. I think that is what we want to see as media members, as fans, as people who consume the sport. Innovation is the key. So topology, I think it's great. One of the things I asked him was, I was like, are you concerned that, because you're right, people, that's what rankings are for us. We want to argue about them. That's why MMA websites love them, because it's good engagement bait. And people love to argue about it. Yeah. And they love to get mad at you for, for if your rankings are wrong, according to them.

And I was like, do you think it'll be less fun for people to argue with an algorithm? And he was like, our experience running this website had said that there is never a shortage of people who want to. send you an angry email like that is not our concern that people will get to a point where they are they will stop being mad like that's the well spring of anger in our sport like we are so full yeah hey uh ben mentioned dog shit apex cards that's a dog poop is what i said excuse me i mean excuse me i didn't realize but at this weekend's card at the apex is the lids a be fluffy hernandez at the top of it and i believe you you spoke to Mr. Roman DeLidze.

Chuck, tell me, how did it go? He's a big, hairy man, and he scares the piss out of him. He's weird because he's like, he looks that way, but he's a super nice guy, you know, like he's very, very nice, almost too nice. Like, I pointed this out in the piece where I was like, you're probably too nice to, like, automatically, you know, climb up the rankings. I was a little bit surprised, honestly, that he's as big of an underdog as he is. I think he's almost like a three to one underdog in this fight with Fluffy, but,

it's kind of lost obviously because we're talking I mean I've got a homz out thing that ran today we're kind of jumping right through this this fight card and looking at UFC 319 it only makes sense but I do think that like you know these are two guys who should be like I know the the leads is 37 years old his his window is closing if he loses this fight it might just close but fluffy I mean like the dude is won a ton of fights and uh he should be kind of like climbing towards those guys that are fighting next week so I feel like it actually has Some stakes, they may not be as obvious, but you're probably talking top five, right? Like you're talking about kind of leaping into that space.

So at least the fight at the very top of this card is worthwhile, I think. Yeah, it is a decent card. We've also got, this weekend, it's not the busiest week. There's PFL's second event in Johannesburg is going down. I think that is a PFL Africa card, so region specific. They did the first one on the undercard of that Eblen B. Kostlovenstainas card. So they'll do another one of them. And Octagon, a lot of people absolutely freaking the fuck out about Octagon over here.

They're doing all those outdoor venues. They're basically, they're an Eastern European promotion, but they're kind of a rival of KSW, and they're doing very KSW shit. The production is really, really great. The events are huge. As I say, this one's an outdoor arena. So I guess my point is, if you're looking for an entry into Octagon, it might be this weekend as a good choice because there is a middleweight tournament taking place.

And there's also the women's bantamay title fight taking place. I think it's at some tennis court. There's going to be tens of thousands of people are there, I'd imagine. So maybe you guys want to check that out. But, yeah, that's pretty much all we've got this week, my friends. It has been lovely having the beautiful Ben folks back. I mean, his arms are intimidating me through the screen as we speak. He isn't wearing any, there's no graphic on his t-shirt whatsoever.

So at least he spared us this. I didn't want Jordan being like, oh, he dressed so cool. Oh, look how cool this guy is. He's stronger than you. He's better than you at everything, Beattie. Go and fuck yourself. But I'm so happy to have you back. That was vacation mode.

That was been in vacation mode, wandering the streets in New York covered in sunblock. So like now on that, this is. He hates summer, by the way. Don't get into it. Then, hey. He ate summer. You're sitting around in New York. It reminds me why I'm glad I don't live there anymore.

New York sucks in the summer. You're just sweating constantly. You need one of those busted fire hydrants. You can, you know. Run through a house kitchen. Where the fuck were they went over there? That was fucking crazy. I asked Chuck, man.

I was pissing, I was three t-shirts a day I was going through. I was just fucking covered. I just, I felt like I was back in the fucking Middle East, honestly, it was fucking crazy. Yeah.

But, lads, it's a pleasure to have you all back. Chuck is actually doing his yearly, and you know about this Ben, because you know, Chuck a long time, he does his half vacation next,

you know, when he goes and picks the hats for the next 12 months and, you know, he gets one for a place. Like some people have like, you know, fishing time on a,

all the letter. There's hats. There's like new lines of hats and I go pick them out this this coming week. Yeah. He looks at prototypes and whatnot. So it's just me and you next week. I think, Ben, if, if chook's not around, if you'd be so going to graces with your presence again, that is. I'm not going anywhere ever again. That's my plan. Come on. He says that. But we know how Ben is like all of a sudden he'd be like, ah, I'm going on, I'm heading out. Chad was talking about this, right? Like, they just kind of disappears without any notice. So I, I'll admit, I could do a better job to let people know in advance, because that's one of those things. where you book the tickets and then I kind of look up and I go, oh, shit, sorry, I'm leaving

tomorrow. It was so funny. I did the show at Chadman. It was so funny just getting me some ban intel, absolutely fantastic stuff and got a new cat as well. I really should have brought this up at the top of show. This was a, Mick is a new cat, right? Oh, no.

Mick's been down for a long time. Oh, I thought you were introducing Mick to the world there with posing McArle the dog. Oh, no. Mick now, he gets birthday cards from listeners of the co-main event podcast every year. So people appreciate him. It's a beautiful thing. Reggie's still dueling Jasper as we speak. He is staring him down from all different parts of the house.

It's quite a saga that's happening here. But listen, we hope you all have a lovely weekend. There it is. Yep. Every time. I thought we were out, boys. Oh, man. We're out.

Fucking hell. Jesse Aroscoe 98. Do you guys notice similarities between Zufa entering MMA v. entering boxing? Both times have influence with regulatory bodies. Both times having influence. That's a good point, actually, because it's like a lot of the youngsters don't remember how that Zufo was not the original owner of the UFC and that Lorenzo Furtita was on the Nevada State Athletic Commission.

And so it was just like they were in a position to do things to the old UFC ownership that would make them motivated sellers, let's say. And then could say like, oh, you decide to put this on the market. Well, don't mind if I do. And but also like you could point to like, you know, where Mark Ratner, who used to work for the Nevada State Athletic Commission and then decided like go over and work the other side of the street working for the UFC for many, many years. now so it's like they did there there was a very blurry line there between like regulator and promoter and so it does seem like there's a certain playbook that uh they have mind and it's doesn't seem like they ever want to show up and just be one of the players in a sport it seems like they want to show up and takeover and i guess i guess that's capitalism for you not here to

take part exactly they start with the programming they go to the back of the computer and fix all the settings and then what what was when was the john mccain thing was that early days yeah that was early days that was human cockfighting era yep one of my favorite time yeah next one what we got pc that's my name i'd like to submit a formal complaint that you aren't a part of the boys in the back show save all save the all day ginnis guzzlin for the weekend i mean i was telling on er jordan not a single beer I had since I returned to the Emeraldals. Is that right? It just broke me.

It just broke me. Unless I'm forgetting something. I don't think I am. I mean, my life's pretty shit at the moment. That's just why you drink. I mean, you know. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a wedding coming up on Tuesday.

I think I'm going to have to bust out some fucking serious drink and then. And then when they all start singing, I can cry. You have a lot of weddings, man. You're in that wheelhouse, I guess. Oh, man, it's a fucking, yeah, it's a big, one. This is going to be a cool one with my friend Tina. She is a yoga teacher. She is a hippie. It's going to be fantastic. So I'm going to really enjoy it. But I think I'll have about like 12 Guinness. And then when everyone says singing later about the whole country. I can say 30,000 calories worth of Guinness. I'll just fast for the next two days afterwards. I swear to God, I won't spend like 50 quid on various takeaways because I'm just wallowing in my shame. But yeah, I'm going to get off the bench again. You know, I think i proved i think i proved jordan that you know hadn't drank it a long time before new york either but when when it calls it's in me it's in me to put away a lot of fucking beer at the drop of a hat

and i'm very proud of that you're saying like john jones you think you still retain the ability to pop out and show them yeah exactly there's no fucking tom ass will come from me in america i'll tell you that much is that it what we go oh shit sammy perfect ending to a great week great show gents. I mean, I'm actually noticing that we're getting more super chats with fucking Ben here as well. And I'm getting offended by that as well. I mean, we had one last week, Chuck. You know what I mean? This is fucking bullshit. Yeah. Like, just because Ben's here flexing on the fucking camera. That's right. Thank you, Oscar Losef for that one. It would have been a lonely super chat section without

you, my friend. But fucking, Ben, we're selling you like the record company sold Britney Spears back in the day. This is bookend, Ben. Like, we bookended this with a praise of one side and this is great for you. You're welcome. Oops, he did it again. It's all I can say. I'll bring the audience with me. Yeah.

Let's close next week, sir. Thank you all so much for listening to the crack. Thank you to On Air Jordan. Thank you to Oscar Losef. Thank you to Chuck Menhall. And thank you to Ben, folks. Me and Ben will be back next week. So on Air Jordan, Oscar Losef.

We love you all very much. Enjoy the Apex event. Give up to Gunna Go on. Have a little go there. Have a great weekend. We love you. Mwaw. Thank you.