The Ariel Helwani Show - Dawn of the Paramount Era, Dana White on the White House card, more | The Craic

Episode Date: January 16, 2026

The Craic is back with its dynamic trio. Petesy Carroll, Chuck Mindenhall and Ben Fowlkes reunite, kicking things off with a deep dive into how the UFC’s Paramount era will shape up (2:47).Then, the guys react to Kayla Harrison dropping out of UFC 324 (28:13), how it impacts the quality of the UFC’s debut on Paramount, and whether UFC 325 shapes up as the stronger event (36:49).With Dana White at the helm of the UFC’s new deal, the trio break down his recent media appearances and how a lack of promotional push is impacting the hype around upcoming events (46:01).While the UFC prepares for its Paramount debut next week, attention turns to KSW, where rising prospect Salahdine Parnasse is set to face Marcin Held. Petesy breaks down the matchup for the lads (56:32).To round out the show, the chaps flex their dramatic muscles by re-enacting an interaction between a UFC matchmaker and a manager (1:04:05), then answer your Super Chats (1:22:21).

Welcome to the Crack, everybody. How are you all doing? It may be a UFC free weekend, but fear not, we are still here to entertain you and bring you through the wonderful world of MMA for the next hour, and maybe a little bit after that too. I am your host, Pizzie Carroll. You know and love me, of course. But, of course, I've got my friends with me today as well, Mr. Benfokes and Chuck Menonthol,

and we are going to get excited about the paramounted. era that is beginning with two numbered events next week, baby, UFC 324. You better believe it. We're going to be all over it here on Uncrowned, but, you know, we just couldn't wait till next week. We're just too excited. You know Ben and Chuck. Those boys cannot move for some MMA action. Look at these two guys. They're practically vibrating with energy ahead of the Paramount era. And of course, we should say, Chuck, thanks so much to big time Ben folks being here. I'm not join us last week, but my God, we got him today. There were strict negotiations for many days.

2200 quid's not bad to get Ben. I will say that. Pretty good. A knockdown rate. We should respect the knockdown rate. Ben, welcome back, sir. Yeah, it helps that. I don't have any idea what a quid is.

Don't know what it is. Don't know what it's worth. It just sounds fun. I like to say it. So, yeah, I'm excited. Excited to be back. Excited to be with you guys. I've been preparing for the parents.

Mount Era, um, going in there watching a lot of episodes of land man, a lot of land man, a little bit of Tulsa King. Trying. I'm trying with Tulsa King, man. People keep trying to tell me that it's good. And I'm like, how do, how do I suspend enough disbelief that I'm not constantly going? So how did this dude who's been in prison for 25 years get so much cosmetic surgery on his face during that? I'm supposed to ignore that Sylvester Stallone's hairline has dropped down three inches.

and that he can no longer convey human emotions with his face because there's too much filler in there. Sure, that looks like a hardened mobster who just got out of federal prison or whatever. Well, I haven't seen it, but you've made a compelling case for me to check this out. He obviously got scalded with some hot water in there in prison or something. And that's what happened to his face, Ben. I mean, he's excited for Paramount, though clearly excited, Chuck. You must be excited, mate. Like, this is a huge monumental moment for the sport.

I can't tell if you're being facetious or not but like this it is a moment in the sport um we've seen this kind of thing before you want to just launch right in um I think that it's uh I think that it's like you know it feels

different to me and you guys can jump in on this too it feels different from from the other eras when we jumped into them like when it went to Fox for instance there was still like this chase to legitimacy like I felt like people are still like, you know, if it gets on like national broadcast TV, can you imagine? We've made it, you know, and that was everybody. That was everybody involved with the sport that had been abdicating for the sport, all that sort of thing.

Even if most of it ended up on, you know, Fox's satellite, you know, channels or whatever, it still felt like that. When it got to ESPN, it was kind of like that realization that you now had entered into the general realm of sports. because even like, you know, I remember talking to Dana White back at UFC 134 in Brazil. Ben, you were there at that show. And I asked him like, what do you think of ESPN's coverage? Because they were doing a lot more. I was there for ESPN. And he's like, why can't we just get UFC on the little bar where it says like NFL MLB and you just click on it? It gives you like, that was his big concern. Suddenly now you have so much of dedication from the ESPN side of ESPN.com, everything like where they had UFC. So it still felt like it was this. huge moment in time where they've made it to the flagship, they've made it to sports pinnacle. And this time, it feels like they're just continuing, right? They're continuing on and they've got to deal with Paramount Plus, but it still feels to me a little bit more like rather than being some kind of flagship for the streaming service that they are a product being brought in, you know, like more so they're just extra content. Their content, it's a big

deal, they're going to blow it up. They better blow it up as big as they can for the price they paid. But it still feels like we're just acquiring content. This is what we're going to do. We've got to stay up with the Joneses at Netflix and all the other things. And that's how it feels. So it feels more like it's a paramount thing. Honestly, more than a UFC thing. I've always looked at it the opposite way where it always was a UFC thing. You're looking at through their lens. This one feels slightly different in that way to me. Yeah, it's interesting in that regard because you're writing that the ESP. thing felt like, even though I'm in Ireland, we don't have ESPN here, it felt like the mainstream

moment. This is finally a mainstream sport. And Ben, do you think there's going to be consequences for leaving ESPN? Like, we mentioned it being on the screen all the time. The UFC news popping up. We've already seen shows will not be there because they're a part of the broadcast package with ESPN. Like, is there a real consequence to that? Or is MMA UFC simply mainstream now? And it doesn't need that recognition from ESPN. Well, I think part of it is that the media landscape has just changed, even since 2019, since pre-pandemic kind of stuff. It just feels like we're living in a different era for a lot of that stuff. Everything is so much more fragmented now.

We thought it was fragmented back then. But it's not the same as it used to be where ESPN was your plug into the entire sports world. There's a lot of different other ways to get into it now. There's a lot of other options for anybody trying to find sports online. And it also felt like, you know, you got onto ESPN. That meant something. In a way, it meant almost more that you gave ESPN an incentive to want to treat you like they treat all the other major sports. Because that I think is the big thing that the UFC will lose going from ESPN to Paramount is how much will ESPN still even notice?

And will you still have that ability to look up at a sports bar, at a TV just just happens to be on? It's probably on ESPN and see that they might be talking about MMA. They might be talking about the UFC. And that just was like a sort of seat at the table that MMA wanted for so long and couldn't get. And ESPN, we've seen this the way it deals with other sports when they have a vested interest, when they have some broadcast rights somewhere in there. They get a lot more interested in showing your sports. times I know as a hockey fan where when ESPN didn't have any ties to hockey, it's not like

they would completely ignore it, but they didn't go out of their way to tell you anything about what was going on in hockey. And it could be the same for MMA here. I do wonder how that plays out, but it also feels like the UFC, as far as its own internal mindset, has for a while now shifted away from, we need to get this in front of as many people as possible and try to convert as many new fans as possible and more toward, hey, we're doing pretty good. We're making a ton of money off this thing. What are the little tweaks we could make to get more of the revenue stream that flows into this sport to flow directly into our pockets?

They're way more focused on monetization and just like maximizing the profit margin than they are on let's try to create as many new fans of this sport and this brand as we can. I think it's a great point, by the way, about ESPN, because that is like, That's kind of the subtext of this whole thing. It's like once you get into January, we were so used to seeing UFC updates even on the ticker, you know, like ESB and ESPN2. Like you would just see things popping up on there.

You could, I still remember, and it still caught me all the way through. Like you'd walk into a bar, you're at an airport or whatever, and they're playing some UFC content like where there's a desk and they're talking about the fights coming up. And you're like,

man, dude, this is just such a different world than the one we were trying to get into before. How much of that? Like, what happens with, ESPN's coverage. That is a big, big story within all of this. Yeah, I mean, because I agree with you, Chuck, especially guys who have been at it as long as we have when there were still moments I'd look up and they're like, are they showing a Charles Olivera fight? They're showing Charles Olivera highlights on ESPN? I know. I never thought I'd live to see that. I remember being in grad school, writing ESPN an email to be like, why don't you have any MMA on your programming? And they wrote me back and we're like, we have a ISCA kickboxing on and we have a board breaking demo on. They're at. 3.30 a.m. on Tuesday.

Dude, I know about this. And yeah, so it was just like to get from there to a spot where, hey, we're just showing it. Like it's NFL highlights. Like it's NBA highlights. That is crazy. I also, though, I do wonder, I don't know if it works. In public spaces, sports bars, stuff like that, sure, you lose something by not being

on ESPN, not being part of the conversation. But everybody, I feel like, has such freedom now to choose their media venues, to choose the media world they want to live in with news, sports, everything, that how many people out there were going, man, I almost am annoyed when it's on the main ESPN only because I don't have regular TV. I don't have a cable subscription anymore. I get all my content through streaming. So like you were almost creating a extra wall for people to get over by putting it on regular TV. They were like, where's the option for me to just like sign up for a streaming service? on my laptop, on my phone,

watch it that way. And in that sense, I don't know if you lose too much in terms of people who are actual viewers. Yeah, it's interesting that I'd never really thought about that, especially over here in terms of bars, they haven't cut onto the streaming thing. You know, if a fight's on the zone,

all the big fights are on the zone? And you go into a bar and you're like, are you showing the fight? And there's like a 70-year-old barman, just going, how do you make that on the TV? And you're like, okay. I went though for a few drinks with my friends Stay over to Christmas

and Manchester United was on the TV but he wanted to watch the darts and it's interesting that Ben's bringing up this people having their own screens on them all the time. You walked around that bar although Manchester United Match was on the TV everybody is watching the darts on their phones in the bar and you're like this is like

it's not a so it kind of takes away from the social element of being in a bar but you're writing that everybody is just doing their own thing. I even, like, you mentioned the mainstream spots with UFC. I still feel that way. I was watching the playoffs, the NFL playoffs last weekend, and they did a big advertiser for UFC 3,24. When you come from a time when the sport was kind of clawing

for every bit of mainstream recognition you can get, that shit is still crazy. Like, you're still like, wow, look at this massive advertisement. In 2011, like, to Ben's point, like in 2011, I was writing as, you know, like a, contracted entity at ESP. I was not a full timer, but I was on their page more than anybody else. You know, I was writing more and all that stuff.

So John Anick, I think, around this time left and he had that show MMA Live. They didn't have a show after that, and they weren't that interested. But a motorcycle company called up and said, hey, we would love to sponsor the show. And so they're like, well, I guess we could do another year of that. And this is how I ended up on MMA Live. Is they're like, who's around? That guy. Get him.

He's in Connecticut. He can be in the studio. So it was like, it was one of those things where just because a motorcycle company had come on, you end up in this big spot. But you were mentioning the middle of the night hours. I think most of those episodes aired at something like 2.30 a.m. on ESPN 2. So it was like, that's kind of the space you were operating in pre-UFC ESPN for a long time until it started really picking up in like 2016 before the deal and all that stuff. But, dude, it was tough sledding back in those days. Well, yeah, and if you're the UFC now and you're looking around at what you perceive as your reality, right, where you were going, look, we were on ESPN for a few years there, we maybe got what we were going to get out of that.

Paperview numbers are down. The era of being able to sell, you know, 500 to 700,000 as a baseline for every single payper view you do are clearly over. Those days are over and they're not coming back. And so you probably looked at the. that and you went, well, look, the portion of revenue you get from trying to sell these pay-per-views is getting smaller and smaller. These people over here will offer you a billion dollars a year just to put on the fights, whether a single person watches them or not. How do you say no to that? So you go over there, you also are looking around and you're going, look, when we go to different places, different countries, different cities, especially ones we haven't been to in a while, we don't even have to tell you who's on the card before we sell out a lot of these things. Now, recently we've seen some signs that in some places that that is starting to shift too

because the ticket prices have just gotten insane. But they're still going, hey, we don't even have to have a main event yet. We don't even have to have a full card yet. We just say, UFC is coming to your town on this date. Are you in? Are you out? And there are enough people who just say, I'm in. I just want to go see a UFC event.

So from their perspective on the inside, they probably go, look, we don't need the ESPN visibility anymore. What we need is that cold hard cash. What we need is a billy in the pocket every year just for putting on fights. What do we care if they're on Paramount? Some of them on CBS doesn't matter to us. I also think that you can't have a conversation about this move and how much Paramount is paying. And some would say overpaying for the UFC without talking about what seems to be going. on at the Paramount

parent company, the Skydance and everything. Just in general, there's something happening there. There's clear shift that's happening there. You see it on like the CBS news side. You see it on like 60 minutes. But you also see they went and paid a billion dollars a year. And they paid it to the UFC, which has kind of set itself up as we're the most vocally like pro-Trump right wing American sports brand.

and Paramount seems to be going after that as a market. And so there's the UFC and it seems like that's the one. If you want to send a signal to people that that's, you know, we're going to do the White House show. We're going to do walkouts for Trump and everything. Like that's who you pay for that. They will give you that. And I think that in that sense, the UFC probably is sitting back right now being like,

this was a smart move we made. We aligned ourselves in the right way and it paid off big time and broadcast rights, which is for years has always been the thing. count on that every time those rights come up for renewal, you're going to get a huge pay bump either to stay or from somebody trying to get you to go. And it has paid off for them every single time. Can you explain that then just for like people who are outside of the US in terms of like a switching focus from CBS? Like are you talking about like a switching like political affiliation nearly? Like it's it's changing. It's kind of framing of of their coverage. Yes. It is. It

is. And it clearly like the the skydance paramount merger was at first for a while there was a question about is is the Trump administration going to hold this up? Is this merger going to be allowed to go through? And then you started to see David Ellison and he's sitting there with all the TKO bigwigs at a UFC event. If you want an opportunity to sit there and talk to Donald Trump, Kate's side at a fight, the UFC can give you that opportunity. You go and you make a deal with the UFC. Your merger gets. approved, but there's also a broader shift clearly happening. I mean, people, like, for guys, the age of me and Chuck, where we grew up and you went CBS, ABC, NBC, these are the networks

that are all kind of interchangeable. Like, they have different shows, but as far as, like, the news products and stuff they put out, they're just playing it straight down the middle mainstream news. And right now, we can see very clearly in America that CBS is being like, we're going to try to do a different thing. We're going to sort of try to be. the Fox News of network TV and, you know, thinking that there's a, there's a market for that. Like, that's, that's at least a demographic that you know exists and that you can go after. The UFC seems like it is definitely a piece of that strategy. Is there any fair chuk as big as this is?

As Ben has just pointed out, there's a lot of people saying that paramount overpaid for this. It's a massive amount of money. It's a billion a year, over a billion a year for these events. And there is the drop off and pay-per-view numbers. There is maybe just a lack of stars that we've talked about a lot on the Ariolwani show and on this show over the last few months. Is there a fear for you, because I think I'm thinking about this a lot, that this is as big as it ever can be? Like, this is the biggest moment the sport can have. And where does it go from here, essentially?

Like, is the only way down after such a gargantuan deal with Paramount? Yes. I think that, you know, like having watched the sport, boom, and the way that it did. And I mean, it was so, it's been incredible and improbable, the way that everything is played up. So it's just, you get to this point where, okay, Ben was just kind of laying out a lot of the details in terms of like, at this point, you just take the bill, the, the billy a year and you're like, hey, we're good, you know, we'd, and I think that's the, that mentality is a lot different from, we're trying to conquer the world. We are trying to get into the mainstream consciousness of sports. We, you know, we're the fastest growing sport. you're no longer arguing those things. And that, unfortunately, is just a natural plateau of a sport.

Now, I'm not saying that it can't maintain, but there's definitely concerns. And I pointed these out time and again that you start to get lost a little bit more in the woodwork of all the streaming service and all that's going on. And pretty soon your product just isn't as seen. And this is one of the reasons, and I know we're going to talk about this later, that you're sort of like, hey, Dana, if you're going to be a promoter, this would be the time. You know, like you probably want to be promoting a little harder or maybe a new era of how you're going to promote it or something because it feels like you're kind of going into this shift where it could be lost more on people. I'm not sure it can go higher.

Like some of the boom periods that we went through, I don't know if you get bigger than that. And some of the way, some of the things that have happened and the way the UFC has reacted, like the pandemic being a great example, we all criticize them obviously because it's like, this is reckless. you guys are coming back so soon. Other sports have shut down. What are you doing? But what did they do? They created and flushed out, I think at the same time, like some old stodgy people within the sport and brought in a whole different, you know, a whole different generation of fans. Like, I feel like so many people got into it at that moment. So some of it has been luck. Some of it has been how they've dealt with things like that to kind of keep it going and keep the boom going. But I just don't know if you can. So I feel like at this point in time,

you probably are looking at the pinnacle of that. And what that looks like, I would be surprised. I mean, I don't want to like be Doomsday, but if they can make it true, is it seven years, right? Seven years deal. If they can come out of seven years and still feel like they're rising and the, you know, I would be surprised at that point. Yeah, I mean, kind of to your point, Chuck, like, I think the pandemic was a good example of the last big influx of new fans. And I still hear from people who are just like, I started really watching the sport during the pandemic because it was one of the only things on. And I do think like that really that gamble there really paid off.

I will also point out that when we were criticizing them, one of the things we were saying, and we said it many times was it might be possible to do this sport during the pandemic, but especially because it's an individual sport, you can keep everybody kind of sequestered away from each other until it's time to fight. And we, but we also went, how are you going to do it to make sure, like tell us what your plan is? And the UFC went, fuck you. We're not telling you anything. And we went, that seems weird. That seems like you should tell people what you're doing.

You're going to be on the next same video. But I go ahead. I mean, it was exactly what Dan White. He's like, I'm not telling the media anything. And it was just like, why not though? Because like we're ready to be convinced that this is entirely workable. I guess so. But that gamble worked.

They got a lot of new people in there. And you hear from people who kind of like even self-identify as pandemic UFC fans. The thing is right now. Is that our attitude area? Like the pandemic? It might be. Dude, I used to get, we used to get, I don't know about you, Ben was in it slightly before me. I know that.

Like, you were, you were already doing stuff in the space. But when I came in, man, man, it was even post, like where I started to really do it. It was even post tough. And so, like, they act like you're like, are you one of the tough crowd, man? Like, the guys who existed before in the sport, they were like these diehards who just didn't accept the people who came in through the tough, you know, entrance. They were like, no, sir. So the pandemic thing, it's like, it's like, yes, it's got to be like its own era at this. Yeah. And now, if you started watching with the first season of Tough, you've been a fan of this sport for 20 years.

I know. It's crazy. And I think, though, that, like, it's natural. The fight business in all sports, boxing, MMA, has always been this sense it's so individually driven. It's so driven by individual stars and personalities. There's always been ebbs and flows in where you get some figures who come in. They get a lot of people excited. They get maybe a new type of fan. And they're. Certainly Ron DeRousey did that. I think you say Brock Lesnar did that. Maybe George St. Pierre and Anderson Silva helped do that. And so I think the UFC kind of assumes, and Dainoa has said on many occasions, like, hey, we don't worry about stars aging out or anything like that. New ones will appear. They will just sort of appear and they don't seem like they think that they have to really do anything for that. And I think the biggest shift has been over the last five to ten years, I'm going, maybe we don't even need to worry about.

those individual stars at all. They show up or they don't, but the brand needs to be the star. The brand is the one thing that is going to remain constant that we can count on. I think that that's one of the things that's tough right now is to shine a light on individual fighters and to get us interested and to keep us interested between fights when they don't have anything coming up, when they don't have anything booked. Because so many of the guys right now, you see them athletically. They're better than anybody we've ever had in prior generations of this.

They're incredible fighters. They can do incredible things. And then they show up the fight and then they go home and it's like they are invisible. It's like they completely disappear. And like I think that is the thing you're missing right now. Especially we've talked about it when we were looking ahead to big events like UFC 300 or now when we're looking ahead to the White House card and we're going, who do you have? Who do you have on the roster right now that you can put on this card? And just by them showing up at the thing, it's a capital E. event. It is a big time deal just because they are present. And right now it feels like the UFC doesn't have a whole bunch of those people and is also really unconcerned about it. We've seen, you know, being part of the media here in this in this sport and particularly folks on the UFC, we've criticized them for not making a big deal of when they go to a different place. It just feels the same. Every event kind of looks the same. You know, they have a system. It works really well and as far as they're concerned, why change it? This is obviously a new thing completely with Paramount.

We've heard that Kate Scott is coming in, a celebrated presenter from the UK who works on CBS's Champions League show. You know, she is beloved. People love her. She has great rapport with all of her colleagues on the Champions League show, particularly. She is a brilliant football presenter. She's been around for a very long time. That is the latest edition we've heard to the broadcast team for the Paramount deal.

But do you think that's where it stops, guys? Or, you know, Ben, do you think we're going to see a lot different, like a lot of differences compared to the ESPN product as there is with the Paramount one? You know, one thing that has remained very consistent with the USC as they moved from Spike TV to ESPN is they control their own production so tightly that there doesn't seem to be a big difference. And it also, you know, you mentioned the uniform. of a lot of the events. The plus side to that is that it's a well-oiled machine. And you know, you know how it is.

You watch a go watch like a boxing event, watch one of these Netflix boxing events, watch some other promotion that just doesn't have the same exhaustive history of putting on these events. And it's a lot, feels sloppier. It feels like maybe not as great a use of time. It doesn't feel as efficient. And then it gives you an appreciation like,

okay, the UFC might be turning out like McDonald's burgers, but there is a certain. level of dependable quality there that you get and you know what to expect and they're not going to mess it up because they've done so many of these before. I expect it to look largely the same. I think that they might throw a little wrinkle or two in here just to sort of signal like we're in a different era. We want to put a little bit of like a distinctive stamp on it for Paramount. But I think mostly what you're going to get is what the UFC has been delivering. That's why it kind of surprised me when I saw like a report. I think it was from the New York

posts where they're like big shakeups at ESPN. All these MMA personnel on-air personalities are out over a idiot. And then when I saw who they were talking about it, went, well, yeah, that's all the UFC's people. They, we knew that. They, they worked for ESPN. Their checks set ESPN on them. But we knew those are the UFC's people that they've routed through ESPN.

Of course they're going to take them with them. Of course, ESPN is going to keep those people around afterwards. You know, that's just like the UFC's people are their people. It's how they maintain such a tight control over their. broadcast. That's how the UFC has an ability that the NFL NBA doesn't have, which is to tell their commentators, don't talk about this. Stay away from this topic. Focus instead on that. And they do. No other sports property really outside of like professional wrestling really has that. You guys just real quick is like we're talking about kind of going into this new era and

like how it looks, how it's going to play out all that sort of thing. Do you remember the first card, official card for ESPN and like kind of the controversy surrounding the, It was a it was a Suhudo, right? It was a Suhudo main event. But they had Greg Hardy in the co-main event finding Alan Crowder. And they had Rachel, yes, they had Ray Jossovich on the same card. And we were like, how tone deaf. I remember having this whole conversation about how tone deaf, you're going on DSPN and you're putting on this card.

Like just, you know, that you would never, you would never want these two people to be associated. And honestly, why you even had Greg Hardy in your co-main event? It's kind of crazy to look back on that. That was the way they unveiled the first ESPN card was with that. It's pretty nutty to remember that. Yeah, it is crazy. That was a massive controversy at the time, really. Yeah.

And you consider where Hardy went then, we had the inhaler incident, all that shit. Like, it was an absolute circus with that dude. It really was. Like, in the end, it was just a countdown to everyone watching him getting K.O. Let's be honest. Like, that's, that sort of felt like the world just wanted to see Craig Hardy being Kowed. But as you said, they were adamant. They were adamant about him being on.

They really backed to. him. They gave him lots of opportunities. I think he's in, I think he's bare knuckle boxing in Russia now or something. Really? I think that's what happened to his career. As we said at the top, UFC 324 is next week, but unfortunately, we have

a massive loss to the card with Kayla Harrison. We won't get into the video. The lads played at yesterday boys in the back. Very emotional, Kayla Harrison went out to the world and basically apologized for having to have neck surgery, which takes her out of that fight with Amanda Nunes, of course, yesterday on boys in the

back Ariel Hualani dated us saying that the plan is now for Amanda Nunes and Kayla Harrison to fight on the White House card. But of course, there's a long road to that fight for Kayla Harrison if she's just had neck surgery. There was a lot of suggestions being thrown around in terms of what could possibly happen to Amanda Nunes after this. New York Rick, who's on the ones and twos on this show today, batted down Ariel Hwani's suggestions. that Amanda Nunes should still fight. I was with Rick on this. Now we know she wasn't, but who

really imagined Amanda Serrano coming out with a World War Care choke? That was absolutely crazy. I mean, strategic, right? Like, there's no way in hell that she's going to get to fight. Oh, you think it was the chale sudden? You think she was pulling a chale? Wow.

I like that. Like, come on. They couldn't sanction that, could they? Because she just jump in there and do that? I don't know. Saying it's a non-offer? It's a nother. It's just kind of like, hey, I'll do it.

You kind of get the pat on the back. wow, look at that, you know. But no, that was never, that was never going to happen. Who could have, though? I mean, who could have done it on that short of notice? Unless somebody like Giuliana Pena or somebody who was just, you know, where it makes sense and she had been staying in shape or fight shape to get in there and do it. There's really nobody, right?

You explored this in the mailbag, right? Ben, you were looking at the options for a caroless card. Like, did anything actually stick out to you? I was from, I was with Rick. I just thought, let's put this on the back burner. There's no reason for Amanda Noon as to going back if she's not fighting Kayla Harris. Yeah, there's just not a whole lot else going on in that division right now. And one of the things that you run into, especially if you're going, okay, with Kayla out,

if we still wanted Amanda to fight, here's the people she has available to fight. It is at least large part the people that were there to fight who she already thought when she was on top few years back. And that's the downside of having somebody who, was such a dominant champion return a few years later. She was just going like, she already did this. This is part of the reason that we were so okay with seeing her walk away when she did. It's because she was like, all right, you beat everybody there is to be.

Nothing else to do. Go home and enjoy your retirement. And then Kayla Harrison emerges and comes into the UFC and becomes champion. And then we go, all right, now there's somebody who we think would be a legitimate challenger for her in an interesting, fresh test. So it makes sense to come back. I think this fight, Kayla Harrison and Manon-Nunes is good enough and big enough that it's worth waiting for, especially if you can get it done at some point in the first six to nine months of the year. I think if it's past that, then maybe you think about different ideas.

But, you know, Kayla Harrison, from my understanding, seemed like she was going to go in and sounded like it was disc replacement. You know, neck disc stuff as somebody who suffers from it from a grappling damage to my neck, it can be tricky. and especially I'm sure she's been dealing with this for a long time and is just trying to push through it and just being like, all right, I can manage it, I can get through it. And you're going to get to a point. Everybody gets to a point. I was talking with Big John McCarthy about this. It happened to him too. Everybody gets to a point with that where you go, okay, I've crossed a new threshold. It's bad. I can't just manage it the way I was with yoga and massage and whatever else. And so, and injections and things like that. It's not only very painful, but what, what you're really get to, so fighters, they can push through the pain and they can deal with that, but it causes nerve damage at a certain point, especially like in your arms, in like your, your muscles, down your hand into your fingers to where you'll just lose strength in one of your arms. And when that starts to happen, then that's really going to affect you as a fighter. I heard from a bunch of people when I worked on a story about this. And Rick's story,

which I'm sure you guys remember from his time in the USC, he told me, you know, he went to the UFC basically saying like here's what I'm dealing with and they were immediately just like go see this doctor this is the guy who take care of it and they didn't tell him what that doctor does and he went to him and the doctor was like I do disc replacements that's what I do and there are other options you know you can get the fusion you can try other other types of surgery but they were just like this is the one and so he went he got his disc replace and he said four months later he was able to walk out onto a mat and shoot a double leg and with no pain and that it was better than, you know, it had been for the last few years. Now, that's also, though, after the time leading up to that four-month period after the surgery,

he had to do absolutely nothing. They were just like, don't run. Don't do anything that's going to, like, jostle your body while you're adjusting to this. Then you can start. And so it's not like, hey, she could get the surgery. Four months, she's good to train. A month after that, she can fight. She's going to be out of shape.

She's going to have to get back into training camp shape and then go through the training camp. You're looking at, I think probably the earliest you could possibly think about is six months. Even that might be pushing it a little bit. That's right at that White House date pretty much, right? That's what Ariel was saying, right? He thinks that's what they're going to try and do. I mean, that would be asking kind of a lot of her. But like it does seem like it could be doable.

And it seems like she would be motivated to want to show up for that one if they could, if they were going to put her on that one. otherwise because especially so far it feels like every time we hear any update about who might be on the White House card all we're hearing is who's not going to be on it just just shooting down ideas left and right don't you dare bring it up yet okay we need to get through this and then we'll go there okay I sent you a document it was well written okay I will say but it's hard it's hard sledding for Kayla Harrison right now because you know that that weight cut that she has to do to get down oh yeah it's hilarious and she's in the middle of that whole thing like trying to get it to stay there and then to be going through this, that's a very tough time for her. How bad is the last joke of Kayla Harrison and Amanda Nunes? Like a fight that's being considered this is for the goat status.

So I know we've done that quite a few times. You only did it a couple months ago. I mean, that's why I think you've got to hold on to it, right? Like at least your back pocketing and say that will come up eventually. Manda Nunes, I just don't think she has a reason to return unless there's a Kayla Harris. Like Ben was pointing out, like this is her reason for returning

and Kayla was only still. sticking around the division because of this. So it's kind of like, okay, they're both here for each other. It makes no sense to do anything other than that. But it is a loss for this card. I think that Ariel had pointed this out many times that if it's really the women's goat fight, right? Like, this should probably be the main event. Not wrong in that because I went through and as you're thinking there are bigger fights in terms of like hoopla, right?

But there were no bigger fights in terms of that status where you're actually fighting for something like that. So I think that it loses something, but it does help, you know, underneath the Gaichi fight. Like, you've still got Sean O'Malley on the card. You've got, it's a pretty stacked card. I mean, it's Laird, yeah. It's pretty stacked. I mean, the Arnold Allen, like, that kind of fight to me is always like, you can't miss it. If that was just its own, like, at the meta apex or whatever it was, if that was just a fight with Jean Silva and Arnold Allen, I'd be tuning in.

And some of those are you want to skip, right? But that's the kind of fight that you tune in anyway. Like, there's a few of those, I think, on this one. Yeah. I really like the card too. I do, of course, think that's a great loss to it. But as you said, like even Umar and a Magamadoff there on the undercard, like there's so many little pearls. Davis and Figuero, um, um, um, Tiba Gutier. It's not even on the main card. It's absolutely crazy. Um, Chuck, does it matter if you're on the main card anymore if it's all going to be kind of, that's it. Yeah, has that changed? I don't know. Is it now? Like, especially the pay-per-view portion, right? Like, now's just one big. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it does matter in terms of sometimes it's the difference between you're fighting at 2 o'clock in the afternoon or you're fighting at like prime time. And, you know, there's been plenty of times where I might have wanted to see one of the very early prelim fights. And I didn't even realize the fights had started. I know.

I looked at social media and people were talking about it or I started to get those emails from the UFC and I was like, oh, shit, we've started already. I've done this the whole time. That could affect you. But otherwise, yeah, it doesn't seem like there's going to be a huge difference. Then two numbered events to start off. 324, we kind of talked about that. 325 is in New South Wales, Sydney, sorry, Australia. I've kind of an Australian-centric card, to be fair.

Is it fair to say like it's taking a step down in stackedness, if that is a word, I don't think it is? It is now. Yeah, it is now. Is it kind of a drop off a cliff outside of the top two fights with Volcanowski and Lopez and now Hooker and Benoit Sandinib? Obviously, Hooker massively in the headlines due to his, you know, pretty heated back and forth with Buddy Pimble, to say the least over the last few days. Yeah, I mean, it is a drop off in quality, especially because the main event for that one is not one that people had exactly been begging for right now.

We already saw that fight. You know, we felt like... Ben, if you don't want to watch it, don't watch. I mean, this is, I believe we do have a clip of the Great Day in a way, because we wanted to. ask you, Chuck, because you wrote a column about this, but I think, yeah, maybe we set the table by playing the clip of Dana. You know, we put this guy right back in his

box who claimed that people have a problem with this main event, Volcanosciv-Lopez. Ben was just about to do it there. Maybe we got that one there in New York, Rick, do we? Got Volk Lopez, too. Some people, I guess, maybe were questioning why there was a rematch when the first fight felt a little decisive on Volk's behalf.

Yeah. If you don't like it, don't watch it. What's the process going into like this needs to be a rematch or this shouldn't be? I don't know if the process was there needs to be a rematch. It was just the fight that made sense. We get in that room and we start putting shit together and, you know, should be a good fight. Jesus. There you go, Ben. Right back in the box, mate.

Can't be bothered. You're so old, baby. I'm rubbed up now. Let's go. Let's go. I mean, here's the thing. If it's just a fight that makes. sense, then explain the sense.

I know. Talk us through the rationale. Tell us what the conversation was. I think he means sense. C-E-N-T-S. Yeah. I mean, that's what you're kind of saying. And especially it just seems like that part,

that part of the Dana White playbook hasn't changed in 15 years. If you don't like it, don't watch. He even, at least 10 years ago, he would have some vitriol about it. He can't even get it. angry enough anymore because he doesn't even like it just seems so disinterested he seems I've never seen anybody look as bored of running a like a multi-billion dollar sports organization especially since it seems like that was if you think about where he started and where he got to you should be more excited about it it almost seems at times when you you seem kind of like dragging

himself through some of these appearances or through some of these fight announcements and it's like is Dana White the boy who got everything he ever wanted and it destroyed him Or it disappointed him? I don't know because it just seems like this thing where people are saying like, hey, you're the promoter. Make the case for this fight. Sell it to us. And he's just like, look, buy it or don't. I don't care.

Makes sense. You know, watch it or go. We get in that room. We make sense. That's one. Yeah. And it's just sort of like, all right, man. And it's not like, hey, there's one or two internet fans out there who were disappointed with this.

Like, this was fairly unanimous from the fan base when they announced this one where everybody he just went, what? Why are you doing this far more? Yeah. And I mean, the old Dana would have been at least, you know, he would know what's going on in the conversation, even if he wouldn't bring it up himself. But he would know the cries for Lorone. He would know the cries for Mosar. Like, he would know that that's going on.

So if he's addressing it, he's addressing it to those people, right? And it's just can't be bothered to even, like, it can't be bothered to fill in any kind of context as to why it made sense or, you know, why those guys were over a little, you know, why they weren't one of those guys wasn't booked in. It's just no addressing anything, you know? I think it's like you're dead right in what you're saying. And I think it's shocking because it's the lead up to this launch, right? Like it's like if there's one time to be excited, as we said earlier, like this is it. You wrote a great column about this joke with a fantastic headline.

We need to get Dana White a little more interested in his own product again. But I mean, it's like this is, every promoter in the world understands the importance of opening week with a new partner. Not just for us, right? Not just for like, not for the hardcore fans, for the casual fans, but also for your new partners. Like, let them see the dude. Like, we've bought Dana White one of the greatest promoters in the world, a guy who we all weren't of, um, you know, 15 years ago when he was, when he was really doing this shit. Like, he was incredible. He's the same way as we kind of look at Eddie Heron when he's in his pomp now. And you're like, holy shit. Like, he makes everyone else look bad because he's so good. Like, that's what Dana White was. Um,

are you shocked to see this? Like again, like we talk about the shock of seeing MMA go so mainstream, like so big. Is this as shocking to see Dana Hoy just going to be like, you know, whatever? I mean, only in the sense of been, I mean, like, only in the sense that like I feel like he's been this way for a little while now, you know, just kind of losing steam. And I think that you kind of, then you start to see the red flags of maybe spreading himself too thin. You see with fighters sometimes who get involved in too much, they're all of a sudden they're fighting declines. I always think of Uriah Faber who had like these businesses and all that stuff. And it seemed like once all that was rolling, the fighting declined, you know, like his actual competing.

It could be that. But the red flags of just kind of promoting power slap and like trying to put energy into other like the Zufa boxing or whatever else it is. And not just that, man. There's other things like he's got he's got all kinds of things he's been dealing with. He's on a NASCAR truck show. I mean, he's got tons of shit like that, right? And at some point, that'll take it out of you. Yeah, it will.

I mean, he's been kind of. of, he's been kind of superhuman in that way over the course of time because he's always been able to just keep it going. I would have been exhausted by like going in his timeline back in like 2006, you know? It would have been like, man, I can't keep this up. But he's done a tremendous job and he's held his own bar so high through that process of being a promoter that when you see a glaring diminishing of that return, like you, you kind of, you notice it. And I think that what you're getting back to your point, like he's kind of been like that for the last year or two in just his Biden announcements and not knowing the context of certain things that are going on,

I thought that you would see kind of a, you know, I thought you would see him kind of turn it on again at this moment. And I guess the fact that you're not seeing that is what bothers you. You're like, okay, he can't even be bothered on a $7 billion partnership. He can't even be bothered on that level. That's telling to me. Yeah. It's a strange one.

But I mean, as much as like we're kind of saying, like he isn't showing and kind of zeal, Ben, I don't feel like we're anywhere near an era of the UFC without Dana White. Like, I just feel like he's like Bob Aram. Like, he's going to be around forever. Like, are you getting any other kind of feeling than that? Like, does this make you feel like maybe maybe he's looking at the exit? No, I mean, I think that Bob Aram is actually a really good comparison. And I think that it might shock Dana White to if he was able to step back and see the extent to which he is very slowly becoming Bob. He's becoming the Bob Aram of M.A. where it just like he seems crankier and and and but also just sort of like ensconced and is never going to leave as long as he's upright and alive. So yeah, I don't know. It seems to me like yeah, nobody at the at the UFC around it is really at this point trying to even envision what a future without Dana White would look like. And it just seems I can't tell sometimes when you talk about all the other projects he's doing spreading himself too thin.

It seems to me that he wants to do those because he can get more interested in that. Like the whole thing with the power slap, the whole appeal of that, you're never going to convince me that Dana White is just like, look, I just love this sport of, you know, bar bouncer slapping each other in the face. Like, just over and over again. It's the sport of kings and I love it so much. I have a deep passion for it. No, he doesn't. He doesn't really like it that much either. I think he just saw, here's an opportunity to corner the market on a different combat sport, to own the entire sport, essentially, which has been a big part of their success with the UFC, to do it again, to be young and excited again the way he was about the USC.

I think that that's the whole appeal of this thing. I don't think that it's, oh, I have to go do that and therefore it's leaving me with less energy. I think he's like, I will find energy in doing that because the UFC seems like a conquered territory. where it's just, it's not that interesting to him anymore. A long time ago, we used to do these shows. And there's this funny thing that used to happen. We wouldn't talk about the White House. This unfortunately will not be one of those shows.

Because as Ben discussed earlier, we're talking big E events. White House is the piesta resistance of 2026 for the UFC. It's been dangled in front of us like a little carrot now for many, many months. It feels like years. It feels like fucking years. But, you know, we talked about what could they possibly do to make this exciting? You know, obviously the McGregor talk is out there.

Obviously, John Jones talk is out there. Well, lads, from this same interview, based on the clothing he's wearing and based on the host that's there, we've got some updates and they don't sound too good. Let's kick it off, New York, Rick, with the Connemar McGregor and Chandler update that Dana White gave us. January 23rd is Zufa boxing. 24th is the first UFC and then after that card we'll start working on the White House fight. I know there's all the talk of Michael Chandler and Connor. Do you see like that as like a realistic thing happening?

No, I mean, that was a couple years ago. Yeah, so that's nothing you'd entertain for the White House. No. It's cool to see Keith Jardine doing interviews like that. Keith Jardine has a film career now. I know, man. He's in movies. wouldn't lower himself the complex.

He wasn't breaking bad. He wasn't breaking bad, yeah. Oh, my God. So that's gone. And two years ago, old news. When did we start doing that? Like, when? He is, that is a sharp.

He's been teasing the return of Conover Greger for what feels like half my natural life. I don't, and now suddenly it's like, what are you guys still talking about Conner? Like, man, we've been saying, like, this is the year. This is the year. This is the year comes back. Michael Chandler. Oh, no, that's your way.

We're not even considering you anymore. I hope they've at least told him. He didn't find out through that interview, I hope. Chandler at home watching it. He just gets him from the table. Like, where are you going, honey? Just out the bag on. Chuck,

I would almost guarantee you he found out through that interview. Oh, my God. That poor guy, man. Jesus. Man, what happened? Like, Connor, like, text Dana or something. Something fucking crazy happened there. There is not, like, something weird's gone on that has shifted this because

I don't know if you guys read about it, but Connor has had a lot of trouble over the last couple of years. I haven't seen it. To think, like, now this is, that don't worry about it, not the big. But, like, the fact that this is now the turning point is very, very interesting. But don't worry.

Yeah, maybe Connor McGregor and Chandler add on there, but guess who could be back? That's right. Oh, it? John Jones, baby. Let's see what you have to say about that. I thought recently, too, that Joe Rogan was saying that you should just have Alex fight John Jones at the White House.

Is that something you feel like? At 205? I mean, yeah, I, yeah. guess or yeah I mean that that would be a fight but can I count on John Jones yeah can't have John Jones doing something bad or pulling out of the fucking White House fights just seems like he's not sedatives man I mean but I mean what the fuck are they going to do with this event like what is going to happen where they're relying on Kayla Harrison to recover from a neck surgery in five months so she's ready to fight at this thing Conor Gregor and Michael Chandler aren't

on it he can't rely on John Jones how do they make this a big event this just don't have be every title on the line like what are they going to do well you've already taken a few off the table right like if you just think about what titles you're you're starting with it doesn't sound like you're going to get ilia teporia back in time for something like that so like you might be able to do like an interim lightweight fight you know but like then paddy what would you yeah what would you do i mean you're already you're talking like you still don't want to get back into trusting arman sarucyan with uh the the the the title shot. So that's a good point. You're skipping past number one contender again,

if that's the case. He's got to work his way back. He'll get there eventually. Or you've got a hobilya Teporia comes back in time to fight whoever wins the Patty Pimlet, Justin Gachy interim fight. That's a bit of a gamble right there, just everything we've heard from Ilya. You're taking light heavyweight kind of that title off the table. Heavyweight, I don't know if Tom Aspinall's eye would be ready for something like that. that any update we've heard doesn't sound encouraging. It sounds like there's still a big question mark. It's an ongoing process.

Up there. What else? What else? Yeah. You're so right, actually. Like, he is, he is so many kind of like, we can't trust this though. We can't trust this guy. The rest of them have issues or can't fight.

Surely you need a fucking American at the top of this card, no? Well, he's already said that he's not trying to turn this card into America versus the world, which I can understand one reasons why is that if you look at how the, the UFC championships are spread out right now. It doesn't look like America's doing great. Like, there's a lot of champions from elsewhere. I mean, you can go down to middleweight. You got Hamza.

Hamza can come in there and fight somebody. He should. He can only fight in the States because of 47 anyway, right? So that makes sense. If you ask Hamzot about it, he's like, I don't know if they want me around the White House, man. And, you know, he has kind of a sense of humor about it. Good friend with Ramzan Katov, Hamzaa,

Hamzach, Shumai. And here is. Headliner for the White House car. You know, at Welter, You got Islam Makashv. You're on the other side of Ramadan for that. So that one might actually be a realistic possibility where he would be kind of ready to return in time for something like that. You know, featherweight, you got the title going up for grabs here, or just in a couple weeks.

So you'd be hoping for a somewhat quick turnaround there. You just start going down the list and you're like, I don't see how you make it to seven or eight title fights just on the math unless you start creating. new titles or you have, you know, four of these titles are interim belts or something. It just, and it also, though, is making us wonder, I think we're already kind of looking at what's announced for the schedule so far in 2026 and we're going, does it feel light because you're saving stuff for the White House card? I mean, that's what Trump seems to be under the impression of. It's what he's telling people is like, oh, they're holding back fights, which, man, if I were Dana White, I would be like, don't tell people that. Like, even if we're doing it,

Don't say that we're doing it. I would insinuate that he cares about that. I guess so. But it also just seems like you're just sort of looking around and you're going like, where are the bullets in the gun? You know, what are we going to use for this thing that is really going to take it to the next level? Or are we just relying on novelty factor, the fact that like this is weird and different? That would be, I mean, the way that it's being hyped, that would seem anticlimatic.

Would it? Like all of a sudden you have like a card where just none of the expected. players are on it. That's why I think you know, as much as they're downplaying the John Jones thing it's got to be him, right? It would have to be. If he's going to come back, it has to be him. That's the only

one that would make complete sense. He's an American who's actually ahead of the field and what he's doing and all that stuff. I just, if it's not him I just, I really don't know. Like you just I've thought about this abstractly. You just kind of detailed it in a better way. I mean, there just aren't a ton of options. We haven't heard someone spell out like Ben just did there

and it's actually harrowing. like, well, like, you've made such a massive deal of this. What's it going to be? Like, it has to be. Like, you can't, you can't put a mediocre card on there. You know, this is a massive, massive moment. Like, this is, this is the culmination of this whole political leaning that the UFC have done. Like, this has to be it.

Like, this is the crowning moment for that whole situation. Crazy to think about that. I think Rhonda comes back, Brock. I think they need to take, Chuck, the Iceman, Liddell. You think he's going to come back for this card? That would make sense. Right. Him VT-O-7.

What is that? Ice. Ice there. Yeah. I think the whole John Jones, how can I trust him thing? Dana White is overblowing it a little bit at this point. Just because I think, you know, sure, John Jones is going to be John Jones. We all know that.

I think he's going directly at John Jones with those comments. I think he's trying to put. Yeah. I think that it's a strategy maybe is just, and for one thing, it is also going to work financially in the UFC's favor. Because, yeah, you walked away from Deonté Wilder money that the Saudis were going to put up to help make the Tom Aspinall fight. And then you turned right around a year later in a situation where you're begging. Instead of you being the guy they are trying to convince the fight, you're trying to convince them to give you a fight. And I think that you're probably looking at, like, realistically, John Jones versus a heavyweight, somebody like that we can get.

It probably won't be any of our first choices or anything. but I do think that it's kind of meant to make John Jones a little more compliant. He keeps hearing this same stuff and it's just his attitude about it seems to be, please just give me one more chance. And I do think that maybe I can change. Yeah. Well, and I think that as long as John Jones is focused, if you can give him something and get him to focus on that,

he can hold it together for short periods of time. I think you could tell him in March or April or something like, okay, you get to be on this White House card. And he could keep himself from crashing any cars or doing anything for that long. I believe that. I think when he finds himself getting into trouble, both like when he does have fights lined up and when he doesn't have anything, it's a sort of like idle hands as the devil's play thing situation. I think like, you know, that's when he'd be like, all right, I got a title fight coming up, but I'm not that worried about it. I can still be out here partying.

You know, he was doing that while he was the champion. but especially when he doesn't have anything on the books, he seems to kind of unravel. I think if you gave him, you were said, okay, we'll give you this big fight on the White House car, we'll give you what you want, you'll get a lot less money to do it,

but you still get to be there and be part of the party and maybe be the main event. I think he could hold it together for that long. Yeah. Well, here's the hoping because I need something. As we said at the top of the show, it is a UFC-less weekend. There is no real, um,

PFL cards or anything like that. Ariel was speaking, earlier in the week, I believe it is LFA's voice TV debut, LFA 224. Elsewhere, KSW 114 is happening. Saladin Parnas is in action again. One of the biggest stars in European

MMA. I got to speak to him earlier in the week. I have not spoke to Saladin since 2019. And what an interesting duty is. This guy was one of the bright prospects in the sports when he was just a kid basically. He looked like a young Anderson Silva. He went to KSW.

MMA wasn't even legal in France. when he went to KSW and I think by the time he was 23 or 24 he was a double champion a lightweight champion and a featherweight champion picking up where Gamra had left off he hit a he hit a free agency period in 2024 and he was a free agent alongside Paul Hughes and both of them were considered like two of the biggest free agents in European MMA history I can remember I went to the Akkar arena to watch Cedric Dune Bay fight and he was there and the rumor mill was like he is about to sign for these guys. He didn't in the end. He's re-signed for KSW. And the reports of the time, get this, lads. The reports of the time were saying he was offered big money from PFL. He spoke to the

UFC and his coach, Stefan Aitch, said in the end that the contract he signed with KSW was worth 20 to 30 times what the UFC offered him. Wow. Then it later came out that people believed he was on up to 600,000 euros. So I went around and I was like, this could be BS. We hear this sometimes. I spoke to industry insiders for the last two days about like how realistic is this contract for KSW, how realistic is for someone like Saladin Parnasse. All of them said this is completely realistic.

Somewhere like maybe it's 500,000. And I'm like, what an interesting situation this guy's put himself in. A lot of American fans may not have heard of him, even UK fans. He is a massive, massive star in front. France, a massive star in Poland. If you're interested and you need an MMA fix this weekend, that's my recommendation. He is a brilliant, brilliant fighter, really, really marketable. Like, he is becoming a household name in France in the same way that in Ganoo, Cyril Ghan, Cedric Dumbay, like, he is in that mix. I was speaking to someone who went over to an event

recently in France. I believe it was a PFL event in Leon, and this guy can speak French. He was asking taxi drivers, like, what MMA fighters do you know? That's what he was telling him. Cyril Gans, Saladin, Farnasse, Ced. Dune Bay. We all love where French MMA is at the moment. This event is in Poland. This is first time competing in Poland since 2003, but really, really interesting

situation. I was just wondering, lads. Chuck, are you surprised to hear that lads are coming on those kind of paychecks in KSubbla. And you'll remember Kaladoff turning down the UFC because he was saying he was getting so much money.

I think Parnas is in that spot now. He is the franchise guy for them. But do you think a lot of MMA fans would be surprised to hear how which money of these dudes are getting paid? Well, not really. I mean, you've been to some of these events, especially the ones in France, right?

Like, you've been to some of these. Have you ever went to an event in Poland? Because some of those shows, man, they're huge. I mean, the gates on them are huge. Like, tons of people and the enthusiasm is as big as it is. I still feel like that is a thriving market, you know, in terms of one that hasn't probably reached its zenith yet. Like, there's so much more that they can do in Europe.

So in that way, no. I mean, you kind of want to keep the stars intact. I think that they can afford it just given how those shows are coming off. Yeah, the TV deals they have are insane apparently. That's my place for the production and stuff like that. But I think, look, Ben, when we hear about what some UFC champions are getting paid and you hear this KSW guy is getting this kind of money,

a fair play to him because that is a hell of a negotiation him and his team went through, it does kind of bring you back to like, there is options out there, you know, like a lot of people, like Gamrod took a pay cut from KSW to go to the UFC. but Jesus, there is, as we saw with Paul Hughes, there is a lot of options out there. Like, it hurts me and, I'll tell you what I think when I see this, Ben,

it's like Hughes and Parnasse. Imagine how much fans would love to see them in the UFC. Imagine how much they'd add to a lightweight or featherweight division, wherever where they go. It's just, there is so much more out there other than the UFC. I am not trying to say that they are as good as UFC. UFC are prolific, are the biggest brand of the world. Absolutely, there leaps above all of these things.

but there is a lot of shit going on out there. It's basically what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I think we also get used to when we start talking, you know, fighter purse numbers. We get used to the UFC setting the industry standard and we forget. Yeah, I mean, they'll pay some of these guys 40 and 40, but it doesn't mean that's the most they could possibly pay them. It means that's what they've gotten everybody to believe is what you should expect.

And so somebody else comes out and they're making six figures. and you're going like that seems way off compared to where this person would fit in the UFC's pecking order. And you're going like, yeah, I mean, the UFC has done that on purpose. They've suppressed the fighter pay. They went to court over it, still going to court over it in other cases, bragged to their shareholders about it when they were going through a sale like, hey, don't worry, we're going to continue suppressing fighter wages. So it's not that surprising when you see somebody else is just like,

hey, this is what we have to pay to get these fighters of this caliber and to hold on to them. It just makes you wish that I think when there's more competition for fighters, there's more competition to put on good shows. It benefits everybody in the sport. It benefits fighters because they have people to negotiate for their services. It benefits the fans because it has these promoters, each trying to put on a really good product to fight for some share of the market. And it benefits the promoters. It makes them the best possible version of themselves. if they know that they're up against somebody. So, like, that's, we should, I guess, just hope that there could be a possibility for more of those kinds of, like, competing organizations.

By the way, Ben, I heard you say that you ran across a kid in an affliction shirt and it had me thinking about those old afflictions. Can you imagine somebody doing that these days? They paid, remember they paid Barnett something? I forget. It was like $3 or $400,000 for his fight on the first card. And it was more than he'd made in, I don't know how many UFC fights that he'd had. before then combined they're paying guys like Orlovsky 1.5 million. Can you imagine?

Like I was thinking about that. Those were different types of days that we were in back then. I think, I mean, I'm just going off memory here, but I think the disclosed pay for Tim Sylvia to fight Fador on that first affliction. So yes, 800,000. See, this is what is the fact that information like that is still in our brains, Chuck. What is it, what's being crowded out? Like, is this why I can't remember my children's social security numbers?

Because instead, I have Tim Sylvia made $800,000 to fight Fador in the first affliction show. It's funny that you mentioned it because the UFC, remember he had to get out of his UFC entanglement and he was supposed to get like 100 and 100. And he was like, Monte Cox was a part of that whole thing was like, we can get 800,000 over here. Like everybody condemned him for it, but he was like, dude, you might want to go take this money. Yeah. Well, it was also, we could get 800,000 over here, but we got to get it now because it is not going to be. be here for very long. This is not going to be a going concern.

Let's get in there and cash that check quickly. I can remember I was going out with a girl back when the Affliction T-shirts were out and there was a shop in Dublin selling them. And I was doing a bit of train at the time. And we went to the town and I went past this shop and I see the Affliction shirts and I'm like, I'm going to get one of the, I need to go in and get one of these T-shirts. And she was like, oh, yeah, cool.

Go in looking at the T-shirts and suddenly she kind of joins me in the shop. She's like, oh, did you get the T-shirt? And she looked down. she saw it and she was like, if you wear that, I would sew it. I'm not going to a fifth time I'm sorry. That's hilarious. You make a choice. It was a different aesthetic back then, too. And those shirts were going like 50 bucks.

Oh, yeah. They're like 60, 80 bucks. That's how you're making enough money to pay Tim Sylvia. Yeah. I got one still because me and Chad Dundas for one of our CME watch party things. I think we went back and I don't know if we watched the second affliction event or the first one,

but we did sort of a rewatch of it and we made it into like a real kind of like 2009-ish kind of evening. We both bought affliction shirts. We were drinking like monster energy drinks. You know, we're sprayed up with axe body spray. Like all that kind of shit. One used dressed is like sky scrape from tap out like checking in on his rivals.

That's amazing. That is amazing. That's great though. Look, I don't want to, I don't want to, um, surprise, like, I don't want to bury this, but we do, we're going to hear later, like, in a few. minutes, Ben's going to reveal to us why he was on the show last week. But before then, we wanted to try something a bit new on the show today. So basically, our good friend John Nash, who's been on the show before, who was the best legal coverage, he was the best legal coverage in MMA. For me, anyway, in the whole sport. He does a great podcast. His Twitter handle is

Hay, not the face. So this, this, sorry, it was last week just after we finished the show, he put out a post on Twitter, on X, as we should say, that 40 pages of correspondence between MMA manager, Marcello Brigadero, and UFC matchmaker Mick Maynard were disclosed as part of a civil case and he revealed some of them. So what I decided might be a good idea was that if, you know, because it's just a body of text and, you know, it's a lot to get through on a podcast, I've figured like what is a good way to present this to the crackheads? Like what way would they like to hear this? And I figured wouldn't it be good if we had a live action situation where, you know,

Ben could play McManard and Shook could play Marcello Brigadero. So we're going to try this out. I was made for this role. No, we don't know. You know, we haven't done this before. I'm trying to get the script up here because I've prepared it earlier. So basically I just wanted to make sure We're going to do this now

This is a correspondence via text message From Mick Maynard Breathe, let it through To Marcelo Piggadero Ben folks will be playing the role of Mick Maynard Chook will be playing Marcelo Brigadero Can I just say, lads, are you ready Oh well, beautiful joke?

Are we ready to do this? I just got to get in my character I got to think about my motivations I am picking up the mantle from Joe Silva I know that everybody has told me the key is browbeating these managers until they are groveling to accept my offers. That's exactly what I'm looking on. Ruthlessness, viciousness, just merciless negotiating tactics all over text message. Okay, I'm ready.

I'm ready. And action. Can Sue fight Zeruk Adishev, Gen 20. That's pretty good, Ben. I think so. Let me confirm, brother. Awesome. This is going to really be the poise?

All right, all right. Let's do it, brother. You can confirm? Awesome. Great. I'm going to give you a little fist bump. New four-fight deal, 23 and 23, up by threes. Let me speak to him, but I am happy with that.

All right, just so that's out there. Is the fight confirmed? Yes. Beautiful, exclamation. Some time passes. Mick, is there room for any improvement with these numbers? Look at this. I wouldn't do it, but Sue is friends with Song Yadong.

And he found out his renewed contract after, that's still cracked you up. He found out after his new contract, his third fight was for 45 and 45, and is pushing me for something better than 23 and 23. You can understand. He can fight it out, it's fine. Song is also ranked 14.

Look at whose song has fought. Yeah, but he means that he also renegotiated for those numbers after his third fight. He's also one and two and didn't fight anywhere near the same caliber. All good. They're not currently near the same level. You know, I really like that Mick is this theatrical, I got to say, man. I agree with you. Don't get me wrong here, all right?

I agree with you. And I am not crazy enough to ask for the same terms of song you don't. Come what do I look like? Just checking if it would be possible for an increase is all. I would not ask for 45 and 45 for Sue at this stage. Come on. Chuck is adding some ad lips. Chuck is taking some liberties.

The Cohen brothers wouldn't let you get away with this. They're going to say, read the lines. Spicing it up. I love it, Chuck. His two wins are over one person that is no longer in the UFC and one has yet to win a fight in the UFC. His loss was against someone I cut. It should be 20 and 20, but I was trying to be nice. He has one win against a flyweight, who is 0 and 2.

You are nice, okay? You're nice. Let's forget this matchup. Make a different matchup. He can fight it out. See how it plays out. Now you're not being so nice. Where was I?

No, we want this fight. He's about to fight a guy that's three and two. Let's see how he does against him. someone tougher and then revisit. I prefer to convince him to get the 23 and 23. Let's not go crazy. Just give me a few minutes. I am using a Chinese translator here.

Because up to this point, he's not faced anyone to warrant comparisons to song. Agreed. I got it. I was just checking. Doesn't mean I agree with him. I think he's crazy. He is in a division with 20 people but has not faced a single ranked guy.

Agreed. Agreed. I am talking to him. to a Chinese gentleman who is translating now. Okay? After this fight, I will put him versus a ranked opponent. If he wins, he will only have two fights left on that contract. If he wins this one, of course.

Perfect. I like the idea of a ranked opponent after this fight. Cool. Let me know if he wants this new deal or prefers to fight it out. Right now, he has faced the lower level of the division. One person in the division, in fact, that is 0 and 2. Might have mentioned that already. He will take it.

Just bringing him down to Earth is all. The fact that I need to use a Chinese translator to do it delays the process, but in a few minutes, we should have it all sorted. It's all good. Okay, thank you. Thank you, brother. Done, exclamation mark. You can send us the new agreement, brother.

Thanks for that. Next time we meet, I will buy you a beer and show you a very top secret, Lutte Libre footlock Let's go And see And cut Beautiful boys

That was absolutely stunning McManorid is a son of a bitch man Just talking home like that I was like takes a lot out of you I tell you It is amazing right Like because it's like The thing that sets off from this interaction

To go from just very cordial to tense It's him being like Hey could we maybe get a little more money And it's just like no I will make you beg to get the offer that I was initialing offering, you know. Oh, man. Reminds me of me pursuing women when I was a teenager, to be honest with you. You know what I mean?

It's fine. It's fine. Listen, whatever you need. You know what I'm just here. Of course I know I'm not on the level of that guy. I know that. Yeah, of course. He's a, he's beautiful.

Imagine if that was your manager, if you were a fighter and that was your manager and they're negotiating for, he probably comes back and tells you like, oh, You know, did the best I could for you. And then you're reading the text exchanges and you're like, how did he have you offering to buy him a beer at the end of this? How did that happen? His Chinese translator right now is really upsetting him by reading him this, what the actual, the way of this went down, right? He's ringing Sue McGarry and he's like, he's about to fucking could you? It's crazy, dude.

Is it, is it a shock? I mean, is it a shock that it goes down like this? Like, I don't think so. Like, you know, after the Joe Silva documents. released. I think we had a good idea how things go, right? Well, and I think that that's probably what Mick learned when he took that job as came in

to replace Joe essentially and was the UFC matchmaker and they were kind of like, look, this is how we do it. This is what works on these guys. You know, keep them down here, keep them groveling for whatever crumbs fall off the table and keep them scared to where they then feel grateful

to get the contract that they thought was too low initially. Joe Sova was always like one of those guys who, if you, you probably talk to him too, Ben, like, if you talk to him in, like, a bar setting at one of the events or something and he would just start talking about shit, he, he knew that there was a line and you didn't, you didn't go past it. He knew that the nice guy, whatever nice guy is in, it doesn't work in that matchmaking thing. So, like, they know exactly what they're doing. They hear this from a lot of people. This is, it's a great example, though, to kind of show what they go through. Um, but that's, I think that the way Mick was handling it was. like the same delicate way and also the way that he starts to basically say like hey why don't we just give him a different put it out you know put it on there's put it on that side and uh and put the pressure on the other way you know what i mean that's just they've done this a million times general mass society when o dog gets locked up and the police officer just keeps going you know he

don't fucked up right you know okay first of all that that that's that's that's cane who is uh going through that interrogation that's that's that's not that's not o dog uh they don't they don't don't ever get O'Dog in the box. I can't go, eh, you know what happened was? He's doing all that, yeah. Yeah, I got to see this again. It's been a while. Amazing.

But boys, that was breathtaking. I saw Almighty Supreme last week. That was far better. Last week, speaking of last week, Ben, where were you last week? There was a reason you weren't here. It wasn't that you just couldn't be bothered. I want to say for the record.

Yes. I was in Las Vegas to attend the 2026 Combat Sports Officials Summit. And it was illuminating. I have a couple articles on, and one of which should be going up at some point today. But it was a lot, it was a couple days of boxing and MMA, uh, refing and judging talk. And it was with a lot of the people,

recognizable refs, judges, heads of various state athletic commissions. They were all there kind of going over some of this stuff. And the main reason I wanted to go and check it out is I wanted to see what are they saying to each other behind closed doors? What, what questions are they asked? What are the conversations that they're having?

Are they concerned with the same things that we as like fans and media are concerned with? And one of the big takeaways for me, and this is going to sound like almost naive that I needed to go and see this for myself, they're trying. You know, they are really, really trying. And I think it's easy for those of us on the other side of it to kind of look at this and be like, here we go, another year of I pokes and nothing's being done and we're just continuing to screw up this sport. and nobody cares. And they are trying.

They are trying to address this stuff. At one point, John McCarthy, who was leading a lot of this, referred to eye pokes as the single biggest issue that we have in the sport of MMA right now. And the thing that needed to be addressed. And he really put it on the referees.

It was like, it's on you guys. It's your fault that this has become such an issue. We need to be doing more about it before people are even poked in the eye. We need to be penalizing the extended fingers. We need to be having these conversations in the locker room, we need to set the expectations and actually enforce it.

Because one thing that he pointed out was that consistency across the referee's actions is what can cause a change in the sport. If one guy goes out and starts punishing, like starts taking a point away when he sees somebody with extended fingers and he's the only guy doing that, people are just going to look at him and be like, this guy is a little trigger happy with the point deductions. But if everybody starts doing it, then the fighters will adjust. And so there was a lot of those kinds of talks, a lot of those kinds of times. talks across refereeing, officiating, judging.

One of the most telling moments for me, we're talking about boxing judging at one point. People are arguing about a 10-9 round. What's a 10-9? What's a 10-8? What's a 10-8? Without a knock-down, all that kind of stuff. And Andy Foster from the California State Athletic Commission stood up and he said,

look, let's not make boxing judging like MMA judging, because MMA judging is hard. The implication being boxing judging a lot easier. You know, a lot simpler, a lot more straightforward. And we get into the MMA judging portion, like, the next day. And you're like, I see what he's talking about. You know, we're watching like several of these fights trying to decide, you know, especially, you know, we'd watch something like the round one from Hamza and Dreykus 2 Plus C,

where it's just like total control for the entire round, but very little damage. All right, 10-9 or 10-8. Everybody put your score down, write your name on it. And, you know, then you would be called to account the same way you would have. real judging where you'd just be like, all right, Chris Lieben, you said it was a 10-8, explain your thinking. And, you know, we'd go from there. And it was really interesting to be around and to hear those conversations. And one of the things I think to come out of it that you can probably look for the next time the ABC revises some of the unified rules is it sounds like they're going to go back in

and look at taking out the language of intentional versus unintentional fouls. Because as we're seeing, that just doesn't really seem to matter much. Like it seems like useless language because how any intentional fouls do you really see? And if you're poked in the eye, what does it matter? If the guy really meant to poke you in the eye or if it just sort of happened by accident. I mean, your vision is compromised. So it's still a big deal.

Yeah, absolutely. So wait, the first piece is up today, you said? Or is it? It should be. I don't know if it's up yet, but it'll be up at some point today or that is my understanding. Yeah. It sounds heartening.

And to, to your point, Ben, like, I know referees like Mark Goddard, no judges like Ben Cartlidge and they have given their life to this shit. Like, it is. not like it's something they take lightly it is their life they they they approach it like a virtuoso jazz musician really like they are just they they are so strung out on it like it's all they think about like their brains are just completely locked into to it at all times and i understand that when we have to talk about this and we are critical of of refereeing or officiating decisions that it hurts them because it is it is a massive part of who they are so it's it's a it's a bad

situation for everyone to be in but i never don't believe that they're trying i know these incidents can happen. And I'm really looking forward to that. Everyone check that out on oncrowned.com. It's a quiet weekend. What else are you going to do? Get over and read Ben, folks, new article. How many, how many pieces are coming out?

Two or three. Let's say that. Oh, well, okay. That's where we're out with this. I thought you were in Italy. You were posting pictures. It looked like you and your girl in Italy. That was Caesar's Palace.

That's almost the same thing. Same thing. We ate at an Italian restaurant in Caesar's Palace. Can I be, like, do you guys enjoy? Vegas like socially because I've only ever gone for work. I've only ever gone like I'm only missing out like I don't I don't enjoy Vegas at all it's it's not my kind

of thing I mean if you like to gamble which I know you do Pizzi I mean it could be I mean but that's really the I mean I guess some people really enjoy like the pools but it's they're always so like over everything's so overcrowded and a lot of day drinking and people you know it's just it's like a 24 7

New Year's Eve out there yeah it's overcrowded overpriced, all that kind of stuff. I will say, though, when you do go to cover fights there, it is kind of the most convenient possible environment for that because it's just like short ride from the airport to the hotel. Everything is walkable from like, you know, the venue is just, it's right there on the strip at T-Mobile Arena.

The media day is going to be somewhere in the hotel nearby. You know, the workouts are going to be like, you don't ever need to even think about retina. a car and you probably don't even need to take a taxi cab the entire time you're there until it's time to go back to the airport. Right. So it's a lot more. The MGM grand days were great because then you was on premises.

You would never even leave. I would just show up. You'd go into the hotel and everything was there. And then you would go back to the airport when it was all done. It's a historic place. One of my favorite things was when you'd come out of the MGM grant, you're in that, the garden arena inside the MGM grand and fights are over. You're sitting through the press conferences.

you're filing your story. You come out of there. It's past midnight. It's 1 o'clock in the morning, 2 o'clock in the morning. And you forget, because you've just put in like a day of work inside this arena. It was the afternoon. It was 2 o'clock in the afternoon when you went in there. And you walk out and you've finally forgotten that you're in Las Vegas.

And you come out into the casino and the MGM grant. And you're looking around and you're like, oh, feels like I am four hours late to the messiest party that ever happened. And, you know, there's just like girls walking around holding. their shoes, guys with their shirts all unbuttoned. You see all these various couples wandering around. It seems like they've broken up two or three times tonight. You know, like you're looking around and it's chaos.

And you're just like, I would like to maybe get a bite to eat, get two hours of sleep and jump on a plane. Maybe rip four cigarettes right now. Chook, before we go, there's a massive game tomorrow. Sanver Broncos versus Buffalo Bills. Ariel Hajjorn. Oh, there it is. Oh, there it is. Now we know where the legions is fall here.

Okay. New York, Rick is. He's not messing around here. Rick, hit us with the superchats. What's happening here? Yeah. There were none. He just wanted to interrupt.

Oh, here we go. After a tough week, I can read. Grateful for finishing the week by listening to you guys. I really love the way you break down each subject, clearly talking to me. Thank you, Sammy. I really respect that. the guys are working on it and they're going to improve every week. The more we have them on,

these two young rap scallions, I think they'll one day make some good points too. But of course, and the 10,000 hours you're supposed to get, you know, I'm somewhere around 600. So I've got a long ways to go. That's what else we got there.

Chuck, didn't know you were a Denver fan. I'm a diehard. You in the Denver area? You talking smack to Hawaii this weekend? Sorry. Dude. He's talking smack to me.

I will say that. He's coming at me. You both turn on me today. I was telling Rick about this earlier. They bring me into this group and I was counting down. I said to Elaine, I'm in this group with Chuck and Ariel. Their teams are playing each other. How long before they bow turn on me?

Wasn't long. Wasn't it. It was today they insinuated that I was a woman. I know it was a strong suggestion, but. It's a free path. Tell Ariel, tell us how you really feel. You couldn't do it. He was there.

Just tell us how you really fucking feel about this. I have to tread lightly on this one because I know, I know what it means to him, you know, and I'm like, if this team, you know, I don't know, do you even pay attention to football anymore, Ben? Yeah. Okay, so because Buffalo, what they've gone through. And I understand, dude, like, he's been following for a long time. I understand the desperation, but it's the incompetence of the football team is supposed to be, you know, he wants it to end and it's my team's job to keep him incompetence. So I'm sort of like, what are you going to do?

Like, I'm not going to not root for the, for the Denver Broncos here. And I feel like he's putting a lot of guilt on me and, you know, all that good stuff. The thing I like about the Denver Broncos and the way NFL fans at this point this season seem to perceive them and have perceived them all season long is it's almost like a little bit of like a Patty Pimlet situation where they kept winning. But people kept being like, but we don't believe you're good. I know. Just because just because you won doesn't mean that anybody's going to believe that you can keep winning. And so that part will be interesting to say. And also like with the bills where you just keep looking at them and you're like,

when I see who you have on your team, you should win. You should win all these games. And yet I can't shake the feeling that you're going to find a way to screw it up in a big moment. You know, when you get deep into the playoffs. I will say at least the bills are coming in with a clean bill of health. So that's good. I mean, no, injuries is crazy. Yeah.

So. But to answer this question, no, I'm not in Denver anymore. I grew up in Denver. So your heart stays in Denver on those ways. And I still have a lot of family. friends out in Denver. I would love to visit. It looks like a beautiful, beautiful place. It's a poor man's,

uh, Missoula. It's, that's what I'd call. I'll do, I'm gonna do the Chuck and Ben trip at some say. Is Costa being killed off? Moving to light heavyweight and your first fight being Azamat, don't see how it ends well for New York, Rick's Barber. I told them that he's going to get splattered and, you know, someone made a clip of this and they put it on the internet. I was thinking, how badly will Paolo Costa fuck me up if he sees this? And, you know, the likelihood is very badly.

You know, really disfigure me quite severely. But I do feel that Asimad is going to splatter him. I stand by that. He's a little tank. He's a little fire hydrant. And even though Costa will look decent, that lowy heavyweight, like he's a big dude, I think that's a horrific matchup. And let's be honest, apologies to New York Rick,

who cannot contractually talk on this show due to his contract with boys in the back. He made me say that at some point during the show. Your barber is in hell here, buddy. I don't know what to tell you. I hope he's good at cutting hair because it ain't going to go well for him beyond Azamat. It will be a very severe text coming our way from the group chat here. There will, yeah. Fuck you, peat.

Anyone think he's actually going to beat Azamat? No, I'm amazed that Paula Costa has managed to stay relevant just because we all enjoy his presence for as long as he has, you know, because it's just sort of like, it kind of fell off a little bit there, but we were all just like, ah, Paulo is a fun guy to have a round. looks good getting off the bus going to go out there and throw those things and he's a silly little guy so we all like having him Rick just sent a message to the group saying we still believe

all caps Fair play Do we have anything else Rick? That's a no well listen this is a bump This has been a bumper episode of the crack I mean nearly 90 minutes of absolute magic

You had your first ever live crack table read Ben in the role of Maynard I'm going to hear that voice in Mick. Every time I see Mick now, I'm going to be like, I hear him in that voice. It took a lot out of me. I feel kind of like Heath Ledger after he did The Joker, where I'm just like, I'm haunted by the character.

You deserve all the flowers, boys. It was absolutely beautiful. Crackheads, we love you. We're back next week. It is going to be our big fucking show. UFC 3, 24? No Kayla Harrison. It's still a massive, massive card.

And we're going to give it to you straight down the Gullet. Next Friday. So please join us. Hopefully Ben can be there. Who knows what's going to pop up next week? Oh, if you can climb a mountain, you know what I mean, shirtless, show everyone my abs, you know, or whatever it is.

He does, sexy band. Anyway, we love you very much. Talk to you next week. May the forest be with you. I don't know what's say. Goodbye. I love you. M-ma.