The Ariel Helwani Show - Derrick Lewis, Mark Kriegel (in studio) on Mike Tyson book, former NFL star Shawne Merriman, more

Episode Date: June 3, 2025

Ariel Helwani and the Boys in the Back kick off the show with another angle on the conversation about the UFC being "washed" (06:26).Shawne Merriman, former NFL star, joins the show to talk about his MMA promotion, Lights Out Xtreme Fighting. He outlines his start in combat sports, competing with the UFC’s control of the industry, hosting athlete vs. athlete superfights, talks with WWE, and more (31:06).Mark Kriegel — legendary analyst, journalist, and author — joins Ariel in-studio to discuss his new book, "Baddest Man: The Making of Mike Tyson." He breaks down his start in sportswriting, his rocky relationship with Tyson, the evolution of his career, what he has learned from boxing, and dives into many more stories from his life (1:01:35).Derrick Lewis calls in as the last guest of the program leading up to his UFC main event in Nashville and talks about his decline at heavyweight, his reasons for choosing MMA instead of boxing, his fight cancellation in November, what he wants next, and more (1:58:50).Ariel and the guys wrap up by answering your Super Chats (2:44:05).

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Err-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r- 2000 and 25 hello again everyone I sure hope you're doing well It is great to be back on a lovely lovely Tuesday in New York City for some reason My microphone seems a little hotter than usual Frank. I'm not sure what it is, but it sort of startled me there Maybe I came in a little too hot. I don't know maybe it's because it's hot outside But does it seem louder to you than usual? Am I crazy? You're not crazy. Okay. But maybe just turn down the headphones a little bit. Yeah, maybe I should just do that. June 3rd is a date that is etched in my brain.

It was nine years ago today that the great Muhammad Ali passed away. I remember exactly where I was when I found out. I was at a Los Angeles Dodgers game, Chavez Ravine, first time visiting that beautiful stadium Dodger Stadium there for UFC 199 fight week and I was with my friend Zeus who I worked with for many years at Fox and we got the word that Muhammad Ali had passed away which sort of you know kind of sends shivers down your spine obviously he wasn't in the best of health, but an American icon, the likes of which we may never see again. A sporting icon, someone who transcended the sport

of boxing, obviously one of the most famous Americans of the past century, known worldwide. Earlier in that day I got to be on the Rich Eisen show in studio. That was very memorable. I got to catch up with my good friend Skyler Aston. I was reliving all these memories. And then of course, UFC 199 the next day. All of this will be chronicled in the forthcoming book, Sweet 16, which really chronicles one of the most memorable years of not just MMA's life, the UFC's life, but my life as well. And so when I see that date, there are certain dates

as I've talked about on this program, that when I see them, when I say them, I'm taken back, I can't believe it has been nine years. Yesterday was a really fun day on the program, a lot of great chatter, some great guests, enjoyed having Elena Black, AKA Cora Jaden Studio, some great feedback pertaining to that interview. If you haven't watched it yet, do check it out. Erin Blanchfield coming on to talk about everything

that transpired this past weekend. Unfortunately in Las Vegas, her fight falling through at the 11 and a half hour. Jersena Rosenstreich. On and on it goes today on the program. Very excited about today's show. These are the shows that I live for these shows because we have a legend from the world of sports writing,

newspaper writing, newspaper writing, sports broadcasting. Mark Kriegel is prolific. He's one of the greatest of all time. And you know, I love these chats. I said yesterday, just like the Sean Grandy chat, I know they may not be household names to all of you, but trust me on these. When it comes to storytelling, when it comes to journalism, when it comes to

understanding what it means to be a great sports writer and sports journalist, this is a multiple time Boxing Writers of America winner. He won the Nate Fleischer Award for excellence, Fleischer, excuse me, for excellence in boxing journalism in 2021. He has worked for the New York Post, He's a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, a great writer, other great books on the likes of Pete Maravich, Ray Boom Boom Mancini, Joe Namath. This is a great great book right here and look it's thick and it takes you up until 1988 the Michael Spinks fight. That's incredible reporting right there. Look at that. Baddest Man the Making of Mike Tyson by Mark Kriegel. It's a great book. We'll have him in studio at 2 o'clock to talk about this. Shawn Merriman has a huge milestone coming up on June 14th. You may be familiar with Shawn

Merriman from his San Diego Chargers days, his Buffalo Bills days. He is now a fight promoter and he has his 25th event coming up on June 14th. So that's a very exciting thing to celebrate. And the name of the promotion is lights out extreme fighting. He's got number 25 coming up June 14th. Like I said, in Long beach, California, that is. And so we'll talk to the three time pro bowler, the 2005 NFL defensive rookie of the year, the big man, Sean Merriman will join us to talk about getting into the world of combat sports. He's been at it for the past six years.

And that's a pretty big deal. 25 events, six years, tough business, good on him. And then for the first time in three and a half years, three and a half years, the Black Beast, Derrick Lewis will join us. He has not been on my show since January of 2022. And so it has been a long time. He's returning to action in July. Can't wait to talk to Derrick Lewis. All that and more right here on the program. We play two on Tuesdays on the Dzone show All that and more right here on the program. We play two on Tuesdays on the Dazon show at 5 o'clock. Justice Hooney who headlines Portman Road, Ipswich Towns own Fabio Wardley going up against Justice Hooney

this Saturday on Dazon. We'll talk to the big Australian, also Richardson Hitchens, who defends his title next Saturday right here in New York City at the theater attached to Madison Square Garden against George Camposus. The two of them will join us at five o'clock. So a lot to get to on this busy Tuesday. Let us get into some news and notes though. We did find out this morning that the UFC is in fact returning to Paris on September 6th and so this has become a yearly stop for them. September 6th and so this has become a yearly stop for them. And I love the fact that On Air Jordan picked up this very authentic picture.

La UFC revient à Paris, samedi le 6 septembre, manifester votre intérêt, meaning your interest. And... Returning to the sporting capital of Europe. Fuckin' hell. Yeah, thank you, Oban. Appreciate that. UFC Paris arrives at the Accor Arena on September 6th for the fourth time. Sign up on UFC.com slash Paris. I think PT went to the Accor Arena, right? We even got the pretentiousness.

Oh yeah. I love it. It's a great venue, PT. I'm just ignoring what Mike said. Let me tell you, what a place. It's like a triangle and they've got some grass on the side of it. A grass verge, if you will, a verge.

I don't know what it is. Is it a verge? Oh, rude to bear. See was absolutely illuminated when I was there. I already let me tell you the fans and the refrain for the great Cedric Doom Bay, course, up and down, rude to bear. See, and whatever happened, but at the time it was, I mean, he kind of believe he's still alive, still, still a fighter. And I think he's found God, right? Haven't we all? Yeah, haven't we all? I haven't, yeah, I know, it's a good point.

Anyway, good to see you, PT. I like the beard. We letting it grow or what? No, I just didn't shave. The lads were telling me that I was a disgrace showing up with facial hair like this. No, I think it's a good look. I want to see. Lads? Yeah.

I'm pretty sure that was just Frank. No, it was you as well, Jordan It was Andy you all chorus just like the people on root of rc ahead of the doombay fight They were saying peet see you're an ugly prick. How dare you show up like this. You're a horrible mess It was really disgust. I don't I don't want to go any further all was said because I couldn't say to riot but Very upset I'm getting over it though, so happy to speak to you now Ariel, picking up my spirits now. No it's great, it's great to have you here and obviously we have a lot to get into so no time for these shenanigans. By the way did you happen to see this PT? I wake up this

morning and one of the first things that I like to do is check out YouTube, see what's going on over there. It is the hub of all things, uncrowned, if you will. You know, yesterday we were talking about Tom, of course, every day we have to talk about Tom, John, Chael comes on, plugs his show, no problem, interview, John's retired, all that stuff. Did you happen to see this? Look at the UFC YouTube channel posting this. I'm the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world, good guy, bad guy, he's retired. And first I thought, wait a second, by the way, who made this little thing here?

This is fantastic, well done to whoever did this. Who was this? Was that Connor, was that Jordan? It'd be On Air Jordan. Well done, I like that. Can we see one more time? I speak French, I do a little editing. I wanna see this, I wanna see this again,

how it came up like that, that was nice. Look at this. P.T., I thought this was very significant because here's the UFC and I thought it was one of those like fake UFC YouTube channels, just like repurposing things. They're pushing the retired gimmick. They're pushing the undisputed gimmick. Like that doesn't happen often. This might be a sign finally from the heavens.

Well, what is the sign? If you don't want me to ask it, like, are they trying to put pressure on Jones here with this kind of stuff? Like, look, we're on, we're on Tom's side. Like surely if things were changing, something would have happened. Right? So I just feel like we're now in a situation where the UFC are more publicly aligned, but Tom Aspillin saying, come on, John.

But really like we went through those weeks where we're like, this is on John, but that was only going to last so long. Like it was always going to come back to the UFC, have to make a move. That's where I am now. Like, what are we going to do here? We need to do something. If you're just going to let John kind of twiddle his thumbs and enjoy himself in Thailand, he's going to continue to do that.

Like, I don't believe what John said before before where he was saying the UFC know this situation. This doesn't seem to me like the promotion that knows the situation. It feels like they're making it up as they go along. And honestly, I think people are just fed up. I think Tom is fed up. I think he's putting on a brave face. He's having fun with it. I saw a video he did today with Adam Cattrell for their show, you know, I'm making a big announcement, kind of taking the piss out

of that whole situation, but there's only so much more of this that we can take before we need to know what's going on. Oh, 100%. 100%. But I will say, I think it's significant that the UFC is pushing this. They don't usually take these interviews unless I've missed it. And so perhaps this is a sign to your point, what's the sign? Is the sign that they're trying to pressure him? I don't know. Is the sign that they're trying to tell us something? I don't know. I think we are going to find out soon.

I'm only bringing this up, not to have a whole discussion about like, should or get off the pot. I just thought it was significant that they actually reposted this and then went with the he's retired on the, like they don't usually, they don't get into this sort like the clickbaity youtube game you know they're the ufc they don't need to get into it and so i thought that that was significant also by the way yesterday we were talking about um and i don't know even if we have this i i threw it up in the chat yesterday but i forgot to bring it up as we were

going through things did you guys did you guys realize we were talking about embedded yesterday we were going through things. Did you guys realize we were talking about Embedded yesterday? And GC was talking about how he still watches Embedded. Fair play. And then all of a sudden Embedded pops up on my feed and it's just, did you notice this? It's Sean O'Malley with a newborn. Did you guys notice this?

Oh, the thumbnail. I did not notice. I'm looking at it right now. It's, the episode. I did not notice. I'm looking at it right now. The episode one of Embedded begins with Sean O'Malley and what has to be like a one week older, a two week older, at most a one month old, saying that he just had another kid. Wow, he's kept a tail.

Under a body. No one, did anyone know this? No, no clue. No idea. I mean, I guess this is what happens when you cut off social media. I was just gonna say, now that he's not running his own social and feeling like

he has to share these things, he's actually having a private life. It's an incredible thing. Is that a plus? Is that a plus going into the fight or is that a negative going into the fight? I mean, having a baby is... I don't know, with it being his second kid,

I feel like it's only gonna help, honestly. I was doing some quick research on the Tom Aspinal thing. It doesn't look like the UFC has ever posted a clip from Good Guy, Bad Guy. Wow. This is the first one ever. Wow, there's something there. I will say they're testing out this thumbnail though,

cause just a couple of days later, it's the same thing with Sean O'Malley, but instead of he's retired, like it says next to Tom, it says knockout incoming. Oh, this is the new look. I think they might just be testing something. Yeah. I can't now.

Wow. How do you write it? How do you write it, GC? Thumbnail. Oh, they're fine. They don't have to worry about thumbnail. It's very, very basic, but maybe the basic is good. 21 million subscribers.

Minimalist. It's Lex Friedman-esque. Try with a Lex Friedman. It's just black with some white text. Can't say I've ever seen a Lex thumbnail. Anyway, my point is, it's like, maybe we were wrong about Embedded. Maybe news is broken on Embedded.

We were talking about this yesterday, all of a sudden we find out that- Let's clear the air here. Yeah. Y'all were wrong about Embedded. I've been supporting- No, I'm not taking it, El, on that. Tell us, Dustin.

Tell us. No. No? I'm not taking it, El it out on this Dustin. Tell us no. No, I'm not taking it out Any of this you just brought it to me. I didn't have to watch embedded. That's how the system works Anything important and irrelevant from embedded? I'm gonna find on social or area How long he's gonna tell me and I don't need to look for it. I Was like now I know major life news That is crazy like to say that I have tried many times to forage an embedded segment into the podcast of Dumb with Ariel.

He just never had it. Remember that for a while I was doing it on the ringer? Yeah. You weren't a fan. I was trying. Like an embedded reaction? Yes. Oh God.

And Chuck and Ariel not having it one bit, but I thought it was vital. As you do, obviously, GC. Yeah, it is. it is for sure. We can chop that up. I said- We'll figure out a segment on the crack. By the way, I said, like, tell us, Dustin, it was like the who the fuck is we.

I was sort of- I was wondering where you were going with that. Yeah, like, because I said we. Who the fuck is we? No, it doesn't really work. Honestly, I was taking a really long road to get there. I was thinking Dustin Jacoby, number one fan here, Han Yack supporter, Rick. Wow, Jacoby. I thought I was gonna say what you're doing, yeah. I was thinking Dustin Jacoby, number one fan here, Han Yak supporter, Rick.

Wow. Jacoby. Yeah, I didn't know where you were. I just thought it was significant that here we are talking about embedded and countdown just being sort of like wallpaper and we find out that Charlie Malley is the father of two on the first episode of it.

Is it bad for him to spoil it on the thumbnail? I mean, let me figure it out. No, I clicked on it. I clicked on it. Okay, there's also an argument to make. You said on the thumbnail, no? I saw the thumbnail but it made me click so yeah I guess. And how many minutes did you last and embed it? How many minutes? Maybe like six, but once the once the O'Malley, by the way it's a really nice scene. It's only nine minutes long you know there's not that many minutes to make it through. Once the O'Malley kid thing was done I moved on.

Also this this argument that their wallpaper I, countdown 438,000 views, both the last embedded 356,000. Oh! It's doing better than all their other stuff right now. Apart from the Tom interview. It's certainly doing better than the Rami Brahimaj in Oxfam. That's a shocker. Speaking of revelations online,

we talked yesterday about whether or not the UFC is washed and our old friend, Ant Evans, is feeling himself right now because he had his first tweet that got more than six likes. And not only that, it went like 2,000 likes. Damn, that's a drop in the bucket. What do you mean? What do you mean? It's usually he's talking to the,

I've actually told Ant, if you have any hot takes takes just text them to me to get it out of your system because at least I'll be sort of like a you know But he actually does come from a very informed place because he's a former UFC PR head, head of the UK scene, head of the actual company PR head. He comes from a very, very informed place. This is the McGill that he wrote to the tweet in which we're talking about this, wholeheartedly disagree. UFC's falling off hard. Everyone can see it. You'll know better than anyone that traffic to UFC stories on sports sites is way down from three years. this wholeheartedly disagree. UFC's falling off hard. Everyone can see it.

You'll know better than anyone that traffic to UFC stories on sports sites is way down from three years ago. Again, I don't know what metrics we're comparing but over at Uncrowned doing pretty well these days. And look, Macy Barber falling off is a huge boost. Now is that an indication of it being off or on or something salacious? I don't know, but what metric are we using to distinguish these days? Also, you can't necessarily use the pandemic. Keep it up there, please. You can't necessarily use the pandemic as the gauge, as the gauge as to, you know, like

what everything was off during the pandemic. UFC was supremely high during the pandemic. YouTube was supremely high and everything has kind of leveled out. Anyway, we continue and everyone can see traffic to many UFC related YouTube channels including the UFC's own main channel that's down between 20 to 40% from just a few years ago. He would know because he's in this business so I'll take his word for it. TKO's record business is based on squeezing more and more out of fewer and fewer fans. All right, yes, the

gates are high, they celebrate this. I understand that. I don't think they're trying to necessarily do it maliciously, but yes, that is part of the business. Plus, the ads and all that stuff, people say it's soulless now. I get it, I get it. All right, we continue.

Almost every pay-per-view feels like a fascist pep rally or tea time in North Korea. I think what he's trying to imply is tea time in North Korea is the, uh, the apex scene, fascist pep rally is the politics, whatever. Again, I've said that we can look past it. Does it seem to be turning on more people than turning off? I would argue yes. He says it's gross.

Gross. Most of the people who are done for good are over this shit, I believe is what he's saying. Meanwhile, boxing and pro wrestling are expanding fan bases left and right. Well, pro wrestling, the biggest organization is owned by TKO, but to the point we made yesterday, the pro wrestling business, I think is in a very good place with the likes of AEW, TNA, New Japan, and other smaller promotions doing well. They're getting into the boxing business and, you know, God forbid we hear on the show say

boxing is doing well and everyone says that we're crazy or that we're like glazing boxing. Well he appears to be, you know, he appears to be agreeing with us. Although you would say like boxing is getting, as of this summer, there's a very good chance that for the first time ever, there will be no boxing available on linear TV. If top rank doesn't do a deal with a linear TV network, here in America, there will be no boxing entity on linear television. We continue. For the first time in UFC history, we're force-fed fights nobody wants and on the regular.

I don't know what that means necessarily. Like there's a lot, the schedule is more robust. There are more events. They're not making some very high profile fights, but what is force-fed fights nobody wants? Again, they're selling a lot of tickets and the promotion has never been more popular. With twice as many divisions, not true. I mean, when's the last time they added a division? The flyweights, the strawweights,

this is over 10 years ago, well over 10 years ago. Women's featherweight is coming gone. With twice as many divisions, not true. Endless last minute fill-insins that has long been a thing He knows that in fact I would actually argue if you if you look at the data ever since they introduced the PI There's probably less last-minute villains Interims and vacant titles

There's no way there was once a time where almost every division had an interim belt the vacant title stuff is a little bit funky right now But I don't think that that's a thing that they want to the point that Chael made yesterday. He knows very well that there was once a time where heavyweight, bantamweight, featherweight, welterweight, middleweight all had interim belts. Fighters getting title shots coming off of KO losses, that's long been a thing. I've talked about Gustafsson getting a title shot coming off of KO losses, that's long been a thing. I've talked about Gustafson getting a title shot coming off a KO loss, just one example. UFC championships mean less than ever. I disagree. Look at Jack Della.

Look at what it did for the likes of Islam. Look at what it did for the likes of Drikas. On and on it goes. Murab. Champs barely fight. Again, I don't think that's true. This is going to be... Murab fought in September, he fought in January, he fought in, he's fighting this weekend. John is a weird anomaly. Pereira was as active as it gets.

Dricus, I think, is pretty active. He fought in February prior to that, August, and then again in August. So there'll be three fights in the span of 365 days. On and on it goes. We have, okay, now he gets into like this Soviet style, like, in August so there'll be three fights in the span of 365 days. On and on it goes. We have, okay now he gets into like this Soviet thing, all right whatever, we have too many ex-soviet growing grinders and a plague of boring betting bros, that's just part of the culture. By the way, this is all a byproduct of the success of the

company, that there are betting bros that want to get into it and all that stuff. In fact, the sheer amount of talk about betting is a tactic admission that without literally having money on the line, there's very little interesting to see here. We have reached an inflection point. This is the cliff's edge. Things must change now or we'll see a massive pledge in fan interest. Do you guys remember back in December, everyone was saying the NBA is dead, the NBA is dead, the NBA is dead, the NBA is dead the NBA is dead the NBA is dead the NBA is dead. Oh my god They killed themselves. Well, this is according to sports media watch Dot-com the six-game Pacers Knicks series that just concluded the Eastern Conference final Averaged six point nine six million viewers up ten percent from the four game Celtics Pacers on ESPN and ABC last year

six point three one and Paces on ESPN and ABC last year, 6.31, and compared to last year's TNT conference final because Nick's Pacers was on TNT here in America, Mavericks Timberwolves did 6.74, so up 3%. In fact, Pacers-Nicks ranks as the most watched Eastern Conference finals since 2014 that did not go seven games. It went six. So my point is five months ago we were saying the NBA is dead and then the Knicks make the Eastern Conference final and they're getting you know more viewers than they have in ten years. Why do I bring this up? Right now it's a little down. Next month something's gonna happen or the month after that's gonna happen and everyone's

gonna forget about this and and in the next month, two months, three months, four months, five months, max, they're about to sign a multi-billion dollar TV deal for America alone. Not Europe, not Brazil, not Canada, not Japan, just for the United States alone, the biggest one. Multi-billion dollar deal. Is a washed company selling, or excuse me,

signing a multi-billion dollar TV slash streaming deal? No, they're not. They're just not. So you all sound very silly and you sound like you're prisoners at the moment when you're doing this thing where you're going online and saying, oh, the product sucks right now. Trust me, I'm the one who sits here every single week

and says the apex is soulless, you know, there are too many fights, all that stuff, but the business is booming. You can't, you can't say otherwise. So when you're talking about it being washed, what are you talking about? You're talking about you're not really interested in the product. Okay. That may be because you've been watching MMA for 30 years and you liked it better 10 years ago, but the business has never been hotter, the business of the UFC. And it's about to get even greater because they're about to sign their biggest deal ever. If they were having this shitty down year,

they would not sign their biggest deal ever. And so just remember a few months ago when people were saying that the NBA was done and now look at what the NBA is doing. It's not, and I expect a little different. I know clickbait, all that stuff, you know, engagement, but people who are in the business, who have studied the business, who are

knowledgeable, the business should know better in my opinion. Agree or disagree guys? I hope you're right. I'll tell you that much. Um. We'll only truly know the effects of this PT in 10 or so years. Yeah, have they done a reporable harm? We'll, we'll, you that much. We'll only truly know the effects of this PT in 10 or so years.

Yeah, absolutely. Have they done a reporable harm? We'll know. I'm betting not, but as far as like the immediate, they're about to score a massive, massive deal with no end in sight. How could they be watched? No, I believe that that's all correct. I think the reason why the product is waning as far as we're concerned is because they're

doing so well. They don't have to extend themselves, essentially. I do think that some of the points he made have some merit. As in, I think, we spoke about the Tates, et cetera, with Dana White. I got a lot of people talking to me about that. Like people who are casual fans as a casual sports fans, as opposed to UFC fans, like I think it has a knock on effect on broader, the broader perception of what the sport is when this stuff happens.

But I agree with you that if you're on X every day, it seems like it's going great. Um, I do think that's so there's merit to some of the things he said. Um, I do feel like some of the cards that we were talking yesterday are soulless. A lot of these cards are just, it feels like they're thrown together. It doesn't feel like there are massive stakes involved. And I know we've talked about the tier system, what these events are, but, um, I hope you're writing what you're saying. Like, I know what this sport is at its best and it's fantastic.

It can't be beat the live experience, everything about it. Some of the most magical moments I've ever witnessed in my life happened at UFC events in terms of sport. It's unbelievable. I feel like we've gotten away from that a bit this year, but this is only this year. Let's hope we bounce back and look, we are all invested in this. We all want to see the OEC do well. Maybe that's why we talk about a lot.

Maybe it's because we're concerned about what's happening. But I hope that this broadcast deal is signed and that gives them incentives to show their new partners, look, this is what we can do. And I agree with you on that, and I look forward to seeing what that is. There are many flaws to all of this, by the way. Like, this is not all rose-colored glasses and everything. It breaks my heart truly

that they're gonna sign a multi-billion dollar deal and the fighters are gonna get 0% of this. Like, it is a very flawed thing from our perspective. They're killing it. It's the greatest business in sports because they don't have to share any of the revenue. I mean, it's minimal. It's less than any other sports entity in their position

or even somewhat comparable. But I'm looking at this from the perspective of the UFC and the owners, and they're killing it right now And they're killing it about the fun. Well the fan the fan perspective is an interesting one because in Our little bubble here in our echo chamber. Yeah, we're longing for the days of 2016 by the way, I joked with that yesterday I mean like this dude was was was was hawking, you know yesterday I mean like this dude was was was was hawking you know Okami versus Marquardt in Germany when he was head of PR like let's not talk about like the

good old days some of those fight nights back in the day those European events were a class come on UFC 120 what was it? 123? like these weren't exactly can't miss shows so from the fan perspective it's like yeah in the echo chamber on social media or on YouTube, you may be feeling like, man, this isn't too interesting these days. Well, guess what? It's never been more popular. And yes, they may be squeezing,

they may be overpricing and all this stuff, but people are buying these tickets. I think we just have to be careful that popularity is not necessarily the only metric, right? Like McDonald's, right? There might be... I don't think anybody loves McDonald's. Maybe there are, maybe I'm speaking out of turn. Yeah, I was gonna say I do love McDonald's. People would prefer a gourmet hamburger, right? People would prefer a steak. People would prefer to have something that's a little higher quality. But it is more popular because it's easily accessible and that is what the UFC is at this point. They have been commercialized to the point of being accessible to everybody and maybe for for Pizzi, for myself, for the fans who do

remember what that era looked like before and feel like the quality was higher then, there's a ton of new fans and there's a ton of fans that only predate us or predate this moment by five, six years who don't know what that's like and still enjoy the UFC to a high degree. As they've commercialized this, as they've popularized this further, it has just become a different product. It is no longer the same product.

It cannot be viewed from the same lens that we viewed it from back then. It's just a different thing, and that's okay, but it's a very, very, very popular thing to Ariel's point, and the business of the UFC has never been better. Okay, I'd actually make... It's certainly lucrative. I'd make an argument that I'm one of those fans that's only been here for five or six years and it feels down right now to me. It feels like it is at one of its most uninteresting points. Not to say that it's not going to get better. I obviously, I actually agree with you Ariel on the point that all it takes is a few good fight nights, a new star to be born, to get momentum back,

but right now at the current moment, it does feel like it is down in terms of interest. Yeah, it's, look, I understand where the fans are coming from, I understand that it's easy to be nostalgic and say, oh, back in the day, but there were flaws back in the day as well, and to me, the measuring stick as to whether or not the company's successful is the business

that they are generating. And they've never generated more business. Again, we'll only truly know the effects of some of these decisions in I think 10 or so years, but it's undeniable that they're killing it right now. And I get it, the fan at home with their wings and their beer and their draft kings doesn't care about that they just want fights.

Well guess what this is what you all wanted. You all wanted one dominant organization. Every time we talked about the strike forces and the Bellator and the other organizations out there you said no we want them all together. This is what you all wanted. You all wanted one dominant league and so this is what you're getting. You're getting one dominant league with no competition that has completely swallowed up everything, and they're doing big business as a result.

Let's go to our first guest of the day, someone who is very much in the combat sports business, and it's a great success story. On June 14th, he'll be celebrating his 25th show, six years plus in the business. That's an incredible feat. And you know, you don't hear enough about these success stories. And it's time that we highlight some of them. Three-time Pro Bowler, Defensive Rookie of the Year back in 2005, played for the San Diego Chargers, but who cares about that?

Played for the Buffalo Bills as well. He's Mr. Lights Out himself, Mr. Sean Merriman joining us on the program. Hello Sean, how are you? Great to have you on. What's up man, how you doing? I'm doing great. Really appreciate you coming on and congratulations on all the success of your organization Lights Out Extreme Fighting 25th show on June 14th. So next Saturday, you started this in May of 2019. Can we go back to that point? Why would someone who had a great career in the NFL, who seemed to have it all said, you could ride off into the sunset,

enjoy the fruits of your labor, why get into the fight game? You know, outside of me have been a little crazy. I've always been around combat sports. So my uncles were professional boxers. And so I got introduced to this sport, actually by, uh, my friend, you know, Jay Glazer, Red Fox Sports. Um, and he introduced me to Randy Couture. And so I started training with Randy Couture, uh, back in 2005, man, Max, my first UFC fight was back in 2005, Randy toward, uh, Juggler deal. Wow. And so I started training with all these guys, Tito Ortiz, everybody like doing the off-seasons

So when I retired man, it was it was a natural thing with my TV background being at NFL Network and Fox Sports ESPN The launch of WWE Network, you know, I hosted the WrestleMania is there so my TV background plus my love and passion for the sport Man, I was like shit I can do this and that's what really caused me to launch and do what I'm doing now And so what was the initial goal like put on a couple events a year? I was like, shit, I can do this. And that's what really caused me to launch and do what I'm doing now. And so what was the initial goal? Like put on a couple of events a year, what were you trying to do?

And where are you in that process now six years later? So what people don't really know is I was, I had a two year ambassador to do a Bellator. So I was working with Scott Coker and then that whole team over in Bellator and Viacom. So even before I launched Lights Out Extreme Fighting, I was already working with a big organization, you know, learning how to negotiate venue deals and how production works, building a team.

In fact, a good amount of the staff and team that I have now is from Bellator. And so look, I know the landscape of this business. I've been around. There were some things I used to recommend when I was working with Bellator, when I was working with Viacom, that just kind of went on deaf ears. And some things I wanted to, what I thought that they could be better in

and just elevating just the MMA product in general. And so when I launched Lights Out Extreme Fight, and I was already like full steam ahead, it's just kind of people didn't know about it. They didn't, they were hearing about it later on. And you know, get an opportunity to come on and talk about just my experience and being't know about it. They were hearing about it later on and get an opportunity to come on and talk about just my experience and being around all of them.

I've been around this thing for almost 20 years. It's just, I get a chance to do it on my own now. Can I ask about some of those ideas that you had that you say fell on deaf ears? What were some of those things? Well, I mean, there's no question. Bellator was the most known MMA organization behind the USC for years.

And they were the most solid one. And I thought that they were should be other vertical, like reality show. What made the UFC is the branding, the build up, the video content, the content surrounding the actual fight. It's what made them who they are. It's not like they had, I mean, they had the biggest fights, but it was all the content that showed the program that was built around them. And so I would go to them and try to recommend some things. It would just fall on deaf ears. And I'd say, you know

what, if no one wants to listen or kind of at least be open to create some of these ideas, then I'll give you a prime example. I had, when I started working with Bellator, I did a sit down with Tito Ortiz. We had a sparring session. We were working out, doing stuff. I said, this needs to be more created like that. You guys are owned by Viacom, this big conglomerate. There should be content, verticals, reality shows all the time.

It just wasn't. I don't know if it was Viacom who just didn't know what to do with Bellator or wasn't an important property it is. But that's why I ended up launching Lights Out, Extreme Fighting Man, I was ready to go. I just didn't want to sit back there and start pitching these ideas that no one would listen to anymore.

How expensive is something like this? Because you always hear like, guys come in, they blow a bunch of cash, do a couple of events, and then they kind of disappear. 25 events, like I said, that's a huge success story. Did this end up being more expensive than you thought? Where are you at in terms of expense? See, you know, the funny part area,

like I've been around it so long and I started seeing, and I'm not trying to throw organizations like GFL and these other people under the bus, because I know Darren, I know Don Davis, and I know Peter Mary over at PFL. You can't jump out and have these big events and don't happen. You can't have these big names. They didn't have a lot of stuff together before they even launched.

And that's when I see people doing this, it almost ruined the sport. It almost set it back because from the outside, just being a... I'm still a fan of the sport. I've still got friends all over it. Some of my friends were fighting on that car with GFL, but when you come out and don't know what the hell you're doing and then you try to make it too big, you don't get off the ground. It just sours the whole damn sport and, and, and it kills a lot of the regional promotions, it kills a lot of the other ones that could possibly be that number

two behind the UFC is you guys just talking about before I came on. So I told him, I said, you can't jump out the gate and do these things. You got to build organically. You got to start locally. You got to start regionally and getting your name out there to brand and be consistent with fights and not try to jump out the gate. So companies like GFL, again, I'm not trying to take a shot at GFL, but it's the truth. When you jump out and you have these glitz and glamour that doesn't happen, it hurts

the sport overall and it hurts the business. So you know, we were just talking about this, you would be a great person to ask this question. How do you feel about the current state of MMA? Like UFC is obviously this multi-billion dollar industry, they're about to score a big TV deal, but then there's the other organizations, which you're a part of as well. I have said in the past that I think that the MMA business is in in a recession because the UFC is so hot But there's no number two three four here in the united states. How do you feel about the state of things here? Now you're right. You're right. And I think the biggest thing for one

UFC is going to get the the first first and foremost There are a lot of sponsors and people that and companies are not spending money right now on regional promotions the way they should because UFC is going to get the bulk of that. So a lot of these sponsors and people you're working with, they're like, okay, if you're not the UFC and get these eyeballs, we don't want to touch you. Now, you can build, but you'll never get there because the money is being spent with UFC. That's one.

Two, a lot of the regional promotions are suffering for that reason, for the lack of sponsorship. The big TV deals and streaming deals are not giving out like they used to anymore. It is a recession. I've talked to a few. There's like three regional promotions in this country, in a country that I think that really has a chance, if they got the right backing, if they were going in the right direction, they could be a number two behind the UFC. And PFL failed.

PFL failed to be that number two for a lot of different reasons. And I only don't know if we got enough time on the show to start with the reasons why PFL failed in being that strong number two, but they had a chance. They had the financial backing, they had the glitz, they had the glamor, they had the names,

and they just didn't execute. They didn't penetrate the market enough to be a solid number two behind the UFC. And that, again, just like the GFL, it hurts the sport, it hurts the business when you're trying to grow and stuff like we're doing. Yeah, so there was once a time where StrikeForce was just a quote-unquote regional promotion and then they they made the right moves, grow, grow, grow. And then you know there was a

time here in America where they were number two and eventually got bought out by Zufa. Is that your goal? Do you want to be considered number two? UFC is so far ahead of everyone it's not even realistic to compete with them but to offer some sort of alternative. Is that the goal of lights out extreme fighting? Yeah, I mean look we we you know, we just had the fight before we have the one June 14 We had like Tyrell fortune on that car. We got on Curtis Melinda on this car, you know, we got a renowned Oh on this car on this call, both former Bellator UFC guys, we have every fight that we have now,

we have guys that are one or two fights away from UFC. Every single fight we've had, our co-main event, our main event, there's probably one or two fights away from going to the UFC. But the truth is, there's never gonna be a competition with the UFC because of their branding. Like just how they branded themselves.

I'll go back home, I'm from Maryland, DC branded themselves. I'll go back home. I'm from Maryland and D.C. And so I'll go back home. Even my own family will be like, hey, I'm watching that UFC thing you got the other day. Right? That's how well my own family say how well they branded themselves. So it's hard to ever compete.

And I don't think it's smart to, but you can do some stuff that UFC is not doing, right? Because they're so big and they can't move him and pivot and maneuver just like a smaller company like us. We're putting chips in the gloves through Shotrack. We got a Shotrack technology that's in the NBA and they work with a bunch of other leagues that you can measure speed, power, punch, G-force. So that's coming in 90 days. We got an AI sponsorship company

that the sponsors change on a mat where everybody's watching per country, per state, all the way down to the zip code. So we got stuff coming and other verticals of athletes transformed. I got a show coming athletes call out after the game athletes transforming from one sport to two, two, two lights out, extreme fighting. There's other ways to be big and successful in this sport, but you can't spin your weight to the top because you're going to go out of business. That's ultimately happening with PFL.

Their purses, they weren't selling tickets. They weren't doing a lot of things correct. Again, it hurts the business when you could be a number two, a strong number two, and you just didn't execute. That is a problem. You're right, man. It's tough right now for regional promotions because a lot of the companies aren't spinning and regional promotions direction.

Where can people watch your events? Lights out, lights out sports TV where you can download, you can download any smart TV. So I launched my own network to free ads, report at all sports streaming platform. We got like swerve combat on this, Fight TV. We got 320 sports movies and documentaries, 17 different live sports. But we are still on Fubo like a week later. We're on Fubo. We're working something out now with UFC Fight Pass. Being sports, we got a ton of distribution when it comes to redistribution. We're about to announce some big partnerships too that's coming up, more distribution. Again, you have to build this thing correctly.

You can't jump in here and try to, somebody gonna dump a hundred million onto you, you just gonna blow it. You can't, that's not the way to ever compete in any longevity in this business. If you want to be around, you gotta build it the right way. You spin your way to the top and you'll go out of business like the rest of these guys will.

How are ticket sales for you? And is that one of your biggest revenue generators? Because again, if you have a great local scene, you could do some good business. It's great, it's great. And so right now our tickets are great, especially because we do a lot of local fighters. Our undercards will be filled out with state amateur champions.

They can sell 150, 200 tickets on their own because they have already built a fan base. Then when you start getting up into the main card, then the main event and the co-main event, these guys are former UFC, they're former Bellator, former PFL. The names that I think everyone would know. That's our motto. We want to keep organically growing, but this tech and these things that we got coming

is going to change the game. By the way, once we get this tech right, we're going to license it out to other combat sports. We don't want the MMA scene to go dead. We create, we don't compete. We're not worried about competing with anybody. We organically are going to grow and be big. We're not going nowhere.

So, but I think as you said, on the top of the show, is that the recession right now in the MMA business is tough because all the money and eyeballs, even the media, you know, is all going to the UFC. So it's hard for a lot of the regional organizations to grow like we should. Do you just focus on California? Yeah, we're actually going to Texas, San Antonio,

we're lining something up this year. Okay. Working on Arizona and then working on Florida. So we can get to those three states by the year's time, we'll make it happen. Okay, and by the way, have you ever considered fighting for your promotion? Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, for sure, I mean, you Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I still spar once a week. I'll go over there with Eric and the guys over the Xtreme Gator. I'll go down to Body Shop in Long Beach with Antonio McKee and AJ McKee and those guys, get some work in a black house down in the alley.

I'll bounce around, they'll tell you, man. I'll jump in and if there's open mat on sparring day, I'll get in there and mix it up a little bit. But this is my thing, man, I'll jump in and I'll, you know, if there's open mat on sparring day, I'll get in there and mix it up a little bit. But this is my thing, man. You can't do both. I, you can't be in a former athlete. Like you, you cannot play fighting.

If you, if you're not planning on doing this and you're training every single day, even if I go in there and I can handle my own against a lot of these pros and let these guys being around it's different than a real fight. So my, my idea and the whole thing was if I ever was going to fight that I had to step away from doing what I'm doing almost completely and just train if I was really going to do a boy. Yeah, there's guys I've called out before that, you know, kind of talk on the internet or talk on social media and I'll reach out behind the scenes. I'll offer a real contract in the crickets. Wow.

Like who? Like who, like who? James Harrison is going back and forth with Chad Ocho-Sinco right now. I would definitely fight another former NFL guy. I'll fight a former WWE guy or another athlete from another sport. That was the only one I would consider to make sense. Yeah. That I think that people are really tuned into.

They got a combat sports, even Muay Thai boxing or Jiu-Jitsu, some kind of background where they've had some exhibition fights or whatever, like I would love to go do that. And put on a show for a lot of people and to have it on Lights Out Sports TV and doing a Lights Out Extreme fighting. But again, nobody's really kind of stepped up to the plate.

And I'm not gonna waste my time like to keep calling people out on the internet and then not and nothing happened. Sure. And to be clear, Harrison or Ochoa Cinco interests you more? James Harrison, man, like, you know, Debo. I think that people would love for me and Debo to get after. I think that people would line up to pay to see that.

And I think it'll be a big deal, you know? He's a monster, truthfully. He really is a monster. And I think that everybody would tune in to watch. MMA or boxing? He can get it however, like honestly, any way that he was looking at doing it, I would do it in a second,

because I think it would be so big. And I would, look, I will go to the commission and see if we can do some kind of rules and just make it one night and still have it. Lights out, extreme fighting, obviously. I would put a hell of a undercard together. Some guys we're looking to try to build up and some former UFC guys and I'll make it a whole damn,

you know, have some other form, lay down bail, I'll call up, I'll call Pac-Man, Pac-Man Jones wanna fight Antonio Brown. Look, I'll stack the whole damn card up that night if people are willing to do it. But again, there's a lot of talk, man, and I'm too busy to chase people that don't wanna fight. Back when you retired, there was some talk of you

maybe fighting for a Japanese MMA organization. Was that ever a real thing? I was supposed to have a fight with Bellator. I was in talks with Bellator and Scott Coker and then Mike Coker, all the guys over there to have a fight. This is the thing, back when I tried to have a fight with them, the money I was asking for, I was too early.

Does that make any sense? I was too early because now if I was asked for the money after retiring from the NFL, they would pull up to my house and drop it off in the bag. When I asked for it, it was almost like it was too much. It was way too much. And that was just ahead of the curve on former athletes or any kind of influence or getting into a cage or a ring. I was already training for it.

They don't want to didn't counter my offer, but I was ready to go. And then, you know, I signed to do the bare knuckle, the bear. I think you're talking about the bare knuckle, um, league that I was going to, I signed a contract for that too and a lot of those guys not end up getting paid and I chased a guy for money and he's actually in jail right now He got he's locked up because a lot of a lot of guys fought on that card and didn't get paid and I pulled Out because I realized it wasn't smart. It wasn't a good situation. What about WWE you were talking to them too, right?

Yeah, what happened? What about WWE? You were talking to them too, right? Yeah. What happened? Yeah. It was two things actually. So I still talk to the WWE and I was actually just, you know, do a lot of work with TNA wrestling right now. Yeah.

I saw you clothesline Joe Hendry. Yeah, that was great. I mean, that was, I was waiting to do that. Look at you, look at you here. I mean, this is a beautiful clothesline right here. You know, so AJ Francis who played, oh, look at that. Boom. Look at you here. I mean, this is a beautiful clothesline right here. You know, so AJ Francis who played, oh, look at that, boom. AJ Francis right now he played at the University of Maryland,

played football at the University of Maryland. So he was the one that kind of came up with some ideas. And then the TNA wrestling guys who I'm known for a long time, they say, yeah, we can do it. In fact, we're talking about stuff right now, doing more. I just hosted the other day. They had Unbreakable, I think it was. And I hosted a couple of matches there.

So it's not off the table, man. I still train, I'm still, you know, I'm a 14 hour, 16 hour day guy when I'm just going. And, but I'm really focused on Lights Out Extreme Fighting because I do think that there needs to be a strong, there needs to be a strong number two. And there's some other good promotions out here, like LFA and there's some other really,

really good promotions out here. But I think we got that opportunity to be a real strong number two. You have your own platform and that's part of the, I would guess the business plan is to grow that as well. But do you need some sort of TV deal or streaming deal in order to be successful? Or is it okay the way you have it set up now? This is good how we have it set up. But again, I'm not as far as a live content

This is why I took all the live content I put it back on lights out lights out sports TV unless you're willing to pay for and I know that we got great content We have a three and a half four hour plus show every four weeks on a consistent basis So unless someone's really serious about paying for the content to take it off the platform, then I will. Other than that, we're fine working with Fubo and some of these other guys. But if you want the live content, you want to have to pay for it. Again, to your point about the MMA and game being in a recession, there used to be big contracts paid out for this type of stuff. And people are not paying anymore. So I say, you know what, fine, I'll do some kind of replays on a week or two basis later.

But as far as live content, you got to pay for it. If you think it's viable, which it is, you got to, you know, you got to come to the table. By the way, when you were playing in the NFL, were you a big fight fan as well? Like, were you following it or because you were so locked in, I know you said in 2005, you went to the UFC event Couture L'Odel, but like, were you following, were you following it or because you were so locked in you didn't i know you said in 20 2005 you went to the ufc event couture ladel but like were you following were you thinking about all this or did it really all come to fruition afterwards i was my plan after the nfl was going to go to the wwe sign a contract there and then fight also wow wow that that was a plan um and nobody was going to convince me different. And with the WWE, I think it was more of, you know, I own the name and rights to Lights Out, the trademark. And they have

a situation where they create, they build their superstars, they build their talent, they own that name. For me, I just wasn't willing to budge when it came to that. But it was a total respectful situation where they understood what I was building and what I had going, that I've already built up to the point where I can request and ask for different things. So it wasn't a negative part ways type of deal at all. It was a really, really good understanding on both sides.

And so for me, like, yeah, I was going to fight for Bellator before I launched Lights Out Extreme Fighting, and I was going to sign a contract with WWE. That was what I was gonna do as soon as I retired. And this idea of maybe having a main card of NFL guys fighting each other, you just listed like three, four fights there. I think that could be a nice little one-off.

I think that could be something. Any chance you feel good? Do you think it could happen, or do you think it's just a bunch of guys talking for the internet? It depends, man. It's so, you've been around this thing for a long time. And so you'll kind of, look, I've told people,

I fly out with contracts and checks, right? And I've told them, I said, let me know and I'll make it happen. Pac-Man called out Antonio Brown. I think that that could happen. You know, obviously I would, I would try to be on that card, but Le'Veon Bell is another one that called out several. So again, I would do it in a second, but I don't have the time if guys not really want to do it. I just have too much going on with lights out. And, but yeah, who wouldn't, you know what I

mean? Like get, get a couple of former WWE guys to train and stack that card up, man, and just have a hell of a night. I think it'd be great, you know? How many events do you average a year? Anywhere between 10 and 12. Oh, wow, okay. And so in 2025, how many events do you think you'll do? We'll probably do 12.

And I would, if we could, if we got into a situation with the right partners and things like that, I would like to have 18 and 24 events a year. That's a lot, no? Isn't that a lot? Yeah, it's a lot, man. got into a situation with the right partners and things like that, I would like to have 18 and 24 events a year. That's a lot, no? Isn't that a lot? Yeah, it's a lot, man. But again, it depends on location. You know, we have so many fighters reaching out all over the country now because of the visibility and our growth over the

last like, really, the 18, 24 months. And like, we're getting so many people reach out. Now we're getting people to reach out from other countries. That's Fault in Bellator, the Fault in PFL, Fault for USC. A lot of Brazilian gyms down at Black House, we work with a lot of guys down there, and they're trying to, so our growth, man, it's almost like, first of all, I gotta hire some more people. One, and then two, it's really about having the right TV partner.

Once that happens, I think it'll allow us to really take that next step. By the way, I got a bullet to pick. I see two Chargers paintings or pictures behind you. Where's the Bills love? Are you not proud? OK, there's a jersey, but I want a picture of you in action. Where's the that is not bad.

Who signed that? Is that the whole squad? Yeah, that's the whole team. Damn. What year? I think that was in 2011, 2012, or something like that. So I got like Mario Williams on here, Fitton Patrick, yeah, I got all the boys on this. Which franchise did you like playing for more? Well, we won more games with the Chargers.

Yeah, you did. So, you know, I'm always gonna be a Charger for Life Man, but I'll tell you this, you know, at first, going to be a charger for like man, but I'll tell you this. Um, you know, at first when I went out there to Buffalo, cause I was, I was basically waived by the charges. I was scratching and screaming. I did not want to go. Really? Man, I'm not trying to go to Buffalo and not because of Buffalo.

They were like on six in October, middle of season. Um, and I didn't want to go for that reason. Buddy Nicks, who was a general manager at the time and called me and said, Sean, you're going to love it. I was like, buddy, I don't care what you say. And I basically hung up to go for that reason buddy nicks who was a general manager at the time and called me said Sean You're gonna love it. I like buddy. I don't care what you say and I basically hung up the phone on them They put my contract anyway to the NFL. I got out there man, and I'll tell you it's the best experience I've ever had and like as an as an athlete in my life Wow Those fans man, it felt like you're playing for cousins and

And those fans, man, it felt like you're playing for cousins and second cousins and uncles and nephews. Like you feel like family out there and you don't have that experience in anywhere in the country. It's just a different, it's a different place. I wish every athlete got a chance to experience just playing for a year or two out there, man, because it's a different beast.

It's a different ball game. Man, preaching to the choir. One day those people will be rewarded, right? They've got to win one. Those guys, they're like the most loyal fan base in the NFL. And I know there's a lot of great ones, but the Packers have won all these.

The Bills, the Mafia has to win one. They've got to win one. They've put in the time. They got to get over the hump. The problem with what happens when you don't get over the hump fast enough is the, everybody else in the division gets better. And like Drake May and all those guys, the Patriots Patriots the Jets gonna be a better team probably this

year because they got a new coach and staff and they're gonna be better. So the gap is closed a little bit more. Not saying they couldn't do it. I still think they can, but it's going to be a little bit tougher role because now you got to get out of your division first, right? You might get beat up a little bit in your division depending on how that how the rest of the teams play this year. I know you were doing stuff, NFL Network ESPN, you alluded to that earlier. Are you doing any analyst work now,

or are you just focused on the business? Just focused on the business with Lights Out Extreme fighting in the network. We want more combat sports. We got the Ultimate Fan Zone. We got a tailgate show coming up that'll be in some of the NFL market's parking lots this year called the Ultimate Fan Zone. It's going to be a mega monster. We got like seven, 16 teams that we're doing

this year. We're going to simulcast all the tailgating two out for kickoff, three former players. We got three former players to every team as hosts. And I partnered with game day hospitality, which is a, you know, one of the biggest, not the biggest tailgating company in the country. So we're going to, we're going to we're gonna make a show out of the pregame, man. This is gonna be something that's never been done before. It'll be on Lights Out Sports TV. But we got three former guys locked into every team, which is pretty crazy.

I love it. So again, Lights Out Extreme Fighting 25, June 14th, your 25th event. There it is. Thunder Studios in Long Beach, California You got the likes of Kurt Curtis Millinder Facing Hinnatto Vellante in the main event lights out sports TV. You can watch it. You could buy tickets on purple pass calm and You guys are doing big things and putting on more events that I get it all right there as far as the places to go

Yeah, yeah lights outoutexcept.com. So if you're gonna soak out, well, we got some more announcements coming up. We're trying to get Tyrell Fortune, Jake Babian, Babian is back on this card as well. Well, not in this card, but in the next card. He's another one that I think probably two or three fights away from USC.

So we got like 10 guys, I think in a pipeline who got a real shot in the next couple fights, man. So check us out June 14th, Saturday in Long Beach, California at Thunder Studios. Great to have you on Sean. All the best to you. All the best to your son as well. I believe you're doing big things in the world of football and we'll probably be hearing

a lot more from him over the coming years. So congratulations on all the success and congrats to 25 events and hopefully you guys get 2,500 more down the line. It's great to see. Appreciate it, thanks man. Alright there he is, Sean Merriman the founder, the CEO of Lights Out brand and you've got Lights Out Extreme Fighting 25 on June 14th. I do think it is important to highlight some of these organizations that are working on the regional circuit, if you will. This is the heartbeat of the fight game.

And here I am talking about, you know, UFC doing well, but MMA is in a recession. Well, the lights-outs, the octagons, the KSWs, the cage furies, the cage warriors. It's important to talk about these guys. Obviously the Ryzens as well, one championship doing their thing. I'm proud of the fact that we try our best while obviously giving the majority of our attention to the UFC. We try our best to highlight everything going on in the world of MMA and in the world of fighting. Uncrowned.com, killing it these days. There's a great piece up right now.

Elliot Wurso, who I think is one of the best writers in all of combat. I think pound for pound between Elliot, Chuck, Ben, P.T., John Nash, the great John Nash, who does amazing work regarding the business side of MMA, has a piece up right now, his first piece for us about the UFC's latest antitrust threat, if you will. Elliot Wurzel has a great piece on Manny Pacquiao, Manny Pacquiao and the trouble with growing old in a young man's game. Drake Riggs has been killing it. My guy Darshan is the pride and joy of the site in my opinion because we found him. He's a youngster

and he is absolutely crushing it as our lead boxing writer. We have added others like Jake Donovan. Who else have we added? Lewis Watson recently and many others. I'm forgetting names, I apologize. I'm so proud of the site and all the credit goes to Shaheen Alshadi, editor-in-chief extraordinaire who is leading the charge. So something truly for everyone. It's the best combat sports site on the internet and there's no doubt about it. And, and, and, and, I would like to just say,

beholden to no one. No ties to promoters, no ties to networks. We are truly independent. And yeah, yeah, that's right, Oban. You want the truth? You come to us and I see some people saying like, oh, Ariel, you're trying to get into the good graces of the UFC. No, I don't give a crap.

Have you not? Like, I know, I know it's fun to troll, but like we do our thing, we speak our truth. And when it's bad, when it's shit, when it's bad when it's shit when it's when it's the when it's the product at the at the apex that is soulless that is that is stainless steel if you will there's no heart there's no nothing there's no there's no panache to it we'll say that but we can't get caught up in that the business is booming and ultimately that's the greatest indicator of where you're at as a business you want to know if you're washed or not? Look at the finances.

If the finances are at an all-time high and more to come, you ain't washed. You're not cooked. You're undercooked. There's more cooking to come. Anyway, in about an hour's time, we're going to be joined by Derek Lewis, who I have not talked to in about three and a half years. In a matter of seconds, okay, in a matter of moments, we are going to be joined by the great Mark Kriegel. This book comes out today. Mark Kriegel, one of the greatest sports writers of our lifetime, of the past century.

And he didn't even get into all of this covering sports. He was a crime guy. He was a police guy. 2021 awarded the Nate Fleischer Award for excellence in boxing journalism. Multiple time boxing writer of America award winner. Multiple time Emmy winner. He's worked for the NFL Network, Showtime has written books on Pete Maravich, Pistol, The Life of Pete Maravich, Namath, a biography about Joe Namath, The Good Son, The Life of Ray Boom Boom Mancini, which later was turned into a doc, Bless Me Father, a novel, has worked for the Miami Herald, Esquire, the New York Daily News, the New York Post, like I said, NFL Network, Fox Sports Showtime, and ESPN.

Right now this book available on Amazon. It's already a best seller. But any location where you get your books, Barnes & Noble, Target, Walmart, Penguin, and a whole lot more. He's been everywhere, but this is the main event right here. Let us say hello to my good friend, inimitable the legend himself one of the greatest of all time the one and only mark kriegel what a great honor this is you're gonna be confused with someone else oh my god you bring this book it's great to see you my guy oh yeah look at you come

here i have seen you who's doing your pr mark because i have never seen a book at this kind of pr in the year 2025, 2024, 2023. You have been on every show. I was even noting you did like a 15 minute hit with Scott Van Pelt on Sports Center. Authors don't get 15 minutes. I know you're an ESPN guy, but the PR has been fantastic. That was Van Pelt.

Yeah, what did I say? Well, that was my boss. Nah, nah. I think McQuade. That's you, man. That's you. Nah, it wasn't me. Who's doing your PR?

You're everywhere. You're with Stephen A. You're on every single podcast, but is it not true? You said this was the main event for you, right? This was the one you were looking forward to the most? This is. Okay, thanks. From the time I was born.

Thank you, thank you. You look fantastic, by the way. But it's fatigue. Are you tired? But it's Penguin, and also I do got Fred Sternberg. Oh, the legend. Hall of Famer. Best PR guy, best boxing PR guy I've ever seen,

my lifetime. Are you tired of talking? I mean, because when I talk to you, you're a little bit like, hey, you know, I don't want to promote myself, I don't want to do the social media thing. Here you are, I see you on every show, talking about yourself, your career, obviously the book,

but does it get tiresome? Well, I have an imperative to be a bit of a whore right now, which I don't mean to be. I feel somewhat self-conscious about it, but if I don't sell it, no one else will. Is it fun? Except for Sternberg. Do you enjoy this, this part of it? Some of the interviews have been really extraordinary. I thought, you know, I mean, I was like, wow, really good questions.

I have great expectations for this one. Okay. We're locked in here for not. This is it. This is where all the young people went. Like this building. Oh, is that true? Yeah.

There's a lot of people out there. I can drink my coffee. Of course, do your thing. We want you to be comfortable. I gotta be caffeinated. I know you just You were just sort of exposed to what we're doing here at uncrowned and you're a huge fan of the crack You told me which I told the guys they were like you very much. Thank you

He said it was smart really it was a great compliment that you paid us. Thank you for that Let's go together. Yeah, no, I know Martin combat sports, you know, how's the mic? I'm good. Are you comfortable? Yeah Like I'm good when someone Mike, are you comfortable? Yeah, I just, I feel like I'm good. When someone's on my show, I like to listen to recent interviews that they've done to sort of get a temperature of where they're at. Do you listen to podcasts? Yes, I love podcasts. Because I don't, when do people have time?

Like, it's an hour and a half podcast. Muting, working out. You don't listen to music? Walking the dog, I like podcasts, I don't know. What do you do? No podcasts? I listen to music, man. I got my Spotify.

I got the stylistics, the Manhattans, the OJs, Ohio players. You're not dating yourself at all. I know I'm dated. I'm ossified. I wrote a book. This is not even a current thing. A book is an esoteric thing now. One thing that you keep saying in the interviews that no one's asking you some of the sometimes I listen to I love interviewing

So I'd listen to the interviews and I'm like well you gotta ask this the doors been open and they don't What did you want to ask that no one's asked you kept saying you owed the publisher money? Oh, you said they keep asking why are you writing a book about Tyson? And you said you owed the publisher money and you were trying to figure out what to do I'm like, what do you mean you owed the publisher money? I you signed trying to figure out what to do. And I'm like, what do you mean you owed the publisher money? You signed a deal with them? I signed a deal. Yeah?

I signed a deal for a book that didn't work out. What was the book? The first guy to ask this, and I've been trying to avoid it. Yeah, something in Dubai or something? No, that was something different. Okay, so what was the book? Pat Riley. Pat Riley?

And what happened? Whom I loved when I was a columnist covering the Knicks, but I'm less fond of right now. What happened, did he agree and then pull out? No, no, it wasn't, I never asked the permission of the subject, I'm gonna write what I'm gonna write. Book didn't work out for a couple reasons, and then I got the ESPN gig, and I was in an airplane all day.

So this is a while ago now. I signed this deal in 2016. Wow. Specifically for Riley? Yeah. OK. And I love Pat. He was like my favorite coach.

Tyson was the villain in my column. Yeah. Riley was the villain in my column. Yeah. Riley, Riley was the hero. And I took the position. No, I think it was more than a little justified that the Knicks letting him go. I know that in itself is a subject of some contention was why the fortunes of the franchise went down and look what he did in Miami. So I thought it was going to be a glowing

biography, but Pat didn't want to be written about. I think it was a matter of control. One of his guys called me and said he'd be in touch. And I never got the call from either his guy or Pat, but I got some other roundabout communication, which I was not particularly happy about. Did you need his approval? No, I don't need anyone's approval. So why not stick to the book?

I didn't have time. I didn't wanna like, I didn't wanna fuck around with that anymore. It was just like enough. I got a call from his, I got a call from his guy, and I had written like glowingly of Pat, okay? And I started doing this biography,

and I can't be in a position of asking for permission, because then what I think about the subject, it kind of goes away. So, I started doing this with Joan Amoth. And I had a story about Joan Amoth, and I had an idea about Joe Namath that made me fall in love with the subject and the idea of it.

And when I went to Joe, I think essentially he saw this as a licensing deal. I saw it as a biography, you know? And you can't do a proper biography. And I'm not writing an autobiography. I'm not writing an as told to. I'm writing a book by Mark Kriegel. And that's sacrosanct to me.

So, you know, I did it without Riley. I did it without Namath. Maravich was passed away. His family was very, very generous to me. Mancini cooperated in full. But I sent stuff to Pat. We talked briefly. And then I heard, it's funny because you're

the only one to ask this. I heard from one of his guys, Coach or me will be in touch with you by next week. Instead of anyone getting in touch with me, I heard from, I can't tell you how many people, like I just got a message saying, you may or may not be getting calls from a Mark Kriegel, do not cooperate with him.

So just about like every one of our plateformer coaches, and I thought that was like, that's fine to do, that's cool. But like, I treated you really well and I adored you, you know, Pat. I thought he was an extraordinary coach. What he built is extraordinary. And if you want to shut it down and tell everyone not to speak to me, that's cool too.

That's fine. But at least, like, come to me first and say I'm gonna shut it down. So I just, I didn't have time to like, fight with him and I got this ESPN gig and I was in an airplane all the time. So the publisher, I said, take the money back. No, no, no, we'll get you some,

we'll get you some to do. I said, no, take the money back, really. I love what I'm doing. I love the boxing gig with ESPN. And finally, five years later, we need the money back. Unless, would you consider doing Tyson? And my thought at that time was like, I'd rather drive a spike through certain parts of my body

than go, we live, Tyson. I was also like pretty medicated at the time. Okay. I'd just torn a hamstring. Oh gosh. So I was like, you know, not my right mind. I was sparring. You were sparring?

Not particularly well. No, Churchill. Okay. In Santa Monica. Did you spar often? I did for a while. Who's that, maybe it's particularly wild. No, Churchill. Okay. In Santa Monica. Did you spar often? I did for a while. Who's that? Maybe it's Pat Riley. No, it's not.

He's been watching. I can't tell you. Top secret boxing guy. Okay. What does he want to talk about? I don't know. Does he not know you're live on the program? Apparently not. Apparently, but everybody. So the funny thing about this story is you go from one guy...

I've told that story. Now I can't tell you how many times no one's asked me, like, what did you owe the publisher money for? There's a bunch of times where I'm listening where I'm like, why, this is an obvious follow-up. I'll tell you what though, I was kind of heartbroken for a little while because I thought I had something to say about Pat

and how he changed the game. And like to me, it was a layup. It was going to be a pretty, certainly a complimentary book. Because I admire the guy greatly. I just didn't like, if you could tell me you're gonna call me back, call me back. Don't let me get, don't let it come back through that type of channel.

I think it was cool. So here you are working in the New York scene, one of the best writers in the game, and you're... That's a matter of opinion, but I'll take it in the game, and you're... That's a matter of opinion, but... My opinion, and you're very positive towards Riley, he ends up kind of turning his back. This guy, Mike Tyson, you were not positive about, and you end up doing the juxtaposition there is wild.

What was the beef with Tyson? Because you tell a story of going up to him and saying, I probably wrote more shit about you, more negative stuff about you than anyone, and yet the guy still gave you time. It was the way that our careers intersected. So when I... I had no ambition to be a sports writer. Which is shocking to me because you've gone down now

as one of the greatest of all time. I don't know about that, but I... Were you not a sports fan? No, I was a big sports fan. I played a lot of basketball and was my entree into sports. But I wanted to be like a city side columnist like my hero was Pete Hammel. I was covering cops and courts. I was a general assignment reporter at the Daily News. My first Tyson assignment was, I guess, looking back, it was the summer of his kind of first

crack up in 88 after the Spinks fight. I get a call like, run up to Harlem. You just got into a fight with Mitch Green. I said, where? Like Dapper Dan's. You just got into a fight with Mitch Green. I said, where, like Dapper Dance. What's that, like a club? No, it's a clothing store. Go, get up, you know.

And it was a goof. And then a couple weeks later, I get a tip from... What do you mean it was a goof? It was a prank? No, no, it wasn't a, like, wow, this is cool. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah. Did you talk it was a goof? It was a prank? No, no, it wasn't a goof. Like, wow, this is cool. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah. Did you talk to him that night? I don't remember.

Probably more likely, no. Okay. Probably more likely talked to Mitch Green, who was hanging out in the streets, wouldn't let go. Because this became a moment for Mitch. Couple weeks later, I get a call, he like tore up a mansion in Bernardville through, and he's you know looking back he was a young guy cracking up and this is he was becoming famous in a way of a magnitude that can be fatal, certainly in American culture.

I spent a lot of time in the neighborhood he grew up in, Brownsville. I covered a homicide for probably the better part of a year in the Tilden Project. So I knew the neighborhood well, the 73, the 75. I covered a lot of cop stuff in Brooklyn North. My entree to sports was, I did a basketball piece. Like the Daily News had like a three on three tournament to promote.

I shit you not. Of course, I took it very seriously. And they just wanted some kind of promo piece because they had a Sunday magazine. I wound up doing a kind of, I didn't even know what the hell I was doing at the time, a reported essay about basketball in New York, the thesis of which was that basketball was like politics or crime. In New York, it's always a tale of ethnic succession. And the same way that Brownsville had been Italian,

Jewish, or Brownsville had been Jewish, East New York was Italian, and now it was black. I charted all the basketball through there. I remember there was a great player from Brownsville through one time now, led the nation in scoring Fly Williams. He was part of it. World Free was from Brownsville. He was in the piece. So I had all these like Brownsville guys He was part of it. World Free was from Brownsville.

He was in the piece. So I had all these Brownsville guys in the story. And somehow that led to me being a sports columnist. It was a finalist for a Pulitzer Prize, which obviously was an exceedingly weak year for Pulitzers. And later on, I was at the Daily News, the New York Post is buying out its sports writers because Murdoch had to leave.

Follow me for a second. And they had no money. So the sports writers were taking a buyout. We're sitting at the bar, me and friends of mine. And the editor at the Post says, what the hell am I going to do? I need a sports columnist. And my friend, Mike McIlary, who's a great, great big city columnist, says, well, let Kriegel do it.

Let Kriegel write the column. I said, nah, I don't wanna write the column. Guy says to me, like, listen, I don't really give a shit if you wanna write the column or not. He goes, all I want, I want them to turn over the paper and go, I fucking hate that kid. Oh! He wanted the red meat.

Yeah. I want him to be like a street poet or something, you know. But we also knew the Daily News was about to go on strike. So you know, two, three, four months into being out of work, you know, I took the gig as a columnist at the Post, gladly, but without any qualification. There was no excuse for me to be a goddamn sports columnist. I didn't know enough.

Of course, I thought I did. So that's 91. By that time, Tyson was into full-blown misbehavior, and he became my villain. You know, this is a bit of a departure, but I'm so fascinated by this stuff, so I hope you don't mind. I hope that wasn't boring. I love this stuff.

I was telling the guys, I was so looking forward to this chat because I can't get enough of sports media and the classic New York 90, you know, that's that's I was the 80s still sort of 80s early 90s But like when you talk about the Riley Nicks, but I just want to sure one of the things that does factor into this and I you go we could talk to whoever you but a Lot of the kids that I covered there weren kids, they were young men as I was,

in Brownsville when I was covering basically crack dealers, were contemporaries of Tyson, and they figure in the story. And I never, I loved basketball. I had a deep affection for basketball. I liked the Yankees. I was a Jets fan. The teams that I rooted for the most, I kind of hated on the most, except for the Yankees. But I didn't want to be a sports columnist. I wanted to be a big city columnist. But the only place I found was like,

oh wow, I'm home, was boxing. Really? And I remember going to Bo Holyfield 1, being ringside, and seeing the globules of sweat or Vaseline flying off of Vander's head. I don't know what, I know the 10th round was great, but I'm just sitting there going, holy shit, this is what it is, man.

This is, I love this. This was great. I don't, I'm not sure I really think of, boxing is a sport, yes, but to me it's more like, we're like show business meets organized crime. And I loved it, I always loved it, I still love it. Which Tyson fight did you cover in person? Which was the first one?

First one would be when we got out of jail, it was McNeely. Wow. Which was really like show business meets organized crime. Yeah. You had like, Don King was at his full power. And I remember like the bar at the Betty Boop with the MGM was just, was nuts. And I'm doing a pre-fight scene piece with this woman, Divine Brown, I think. She just got busted with Hugh Grant doing something in the opera.

She was there? Yes, she was like shaking me down for like, she wanted an extra cognac or something, a triple Hennessy and a souvenir goblet and I was like, I can't pay you for the interview but I can buy you a drink. Ha ha ha ha. Wow. I love these stories.

I love these stories. I know. You know, so that was pretty, that scene was pretty nuts. So you were at the ear biting fight? I was not at the ear biting. I was the first one. OK. I missed the ear biting fight for my honeymoon.

Oh wow. Good excuse. Not really. Were you sort of lamenting it, like we were like, damn, I should be there? Were you having FOMO in the moment? It's not like a holy shit. Yeah, especially after the fact, right?

Yeah, but I mean, the earbiting went down in history, my marriage, my first marriage. Sure, but you recently got married. Yes I did. Mazel tov. Thank you. That's amazing. Thank you.

Yeah, you tell a great story about linking up with Mike after I think you were sort of like on the outs with your new wife, you guys had, right? And he kind of, like this is the beauty of Mike Tyson. I'd say this is. Terrifying guy, but heart of gold. So. And by the way, talk into the microphone. Terrifying guy, but heart of gold. And by the way, talk into the microphone. I want to hear.

Okay, all right. So, can I make this? Yeah, do whatever you want. It's all you. So, we actually have the same agent. Okay. A guy named David Villiano. He did his autobiographies.

Two volumes. And by the way, they're really good. They're really good. And you can tell one of the things I hate about as told to is the level of bullshit and when the subject doesn't hold himself up to the strictest scrutiny, which is very, very difficult to do.

But Tyson doesn't, nor does his co-author, Ratso Sloan, pull any punches with himself. It's eviscerating. I think it's one of the least merciful self-analyses I've seen in print Certainly from a sports guy the others would be raging bull But I don't think that like Jake Lamar really thought it through and the other curiously enough is Joe Pepitone's autobiography, which is

He's merciless on himself. Anyway, so I decide I'm going to do Tyson. I talk myself into doing Tyson, which is a whole other thing. Because you have to love the subject. And how am I going to love, even if the subject hates you, you've got to love the subject to do a proper biography. So we get on the phone, and at that time, we split up for a while. I guess she couldn't take me with my hamstring

and bitching about this book. And perfectly reasonable position. And I said, yeah, man, I split up with my girl. He says to me, I think he was having a bowl of Cap'n Crunch or something. And he goes, hey man, hey man, don't blame yourself. It's not your fault, don't blame yourself. I'm thinking to myself, holy shit, what planet am I on?

But that is Mike Tyson, right? Yes. I was like, don't blame, well, it's Mike Tyson in this new millennium. Sure, sure. And I don't know of, I can't think of a guy who has evolved more in public. He's Uncle Mike now. And there was a time where he was America's most wanted. He was a pariah.

Yeah. He was a pariah. What was the turning point? Was it really the movie? No, I think the turning point was him getting married to Kiki, in my opinion. She's the brains behind it all. I just think she guards the palace gates.

She's probably the toughest. That's the best I can tell, his wife, his current wife, Kiki, I think that's actually the turning point. Trying to think what else. The hangover Is cool for young guys like you your generation or the moon, but but it's cosmetic It's not you know he could have gone off the deep end after that anyway, okay, but for whatever reason this marriage took and She did

the script for his one-man show. And I think that, first of all, that in itself begins to codify the myth or the legend, or at least his version of it. And once that happens, there's a road to public rehabilitation. And what I saw was before Spike Lee got a hold of it,

polished it, and went on to Broadway. That's all great. But what I saw was this real guy, and he was reading from essentially a script that he had written or his wife had written for him. And that's what I'm sitting in the MGM watching it in preview and all of a sudden this guy, I just like beat the shit out of him.

Not that that matters at all. I'm holding back tears and it's real and it's real because it was raw and I had never seen him like that. I guess he was like kind of newly sober. And then I went back, I've told this, you've probably heard me tell this story now a billion times because your reporting is really good. I went back and I told him about, you know, chasing around Mitch Green.

And he says to me, how did that make you feel? How did it make me feel? How did it make me feel? Yeah, how did it make you feel? It was like getting high. It was a drug. It was adrenaline. You were a young reporter. You were running around the streets. It was great.

It wasn't like Judge Menthol who was just kind of like, yeah. Where were we? Did you ever think back then, like, mid-90s, early 2000s, this guy would still be alive? Like, obviously you- No, nor did he. One of the things I asked him that day, I think he was 45, he was like newly sober, he was vegan, whatever. Like, did you ever see being this age?

He said, no, I couldn't have imagined it. And one of the things about covering all those kids who, you know, started as stick-up kids in Brownsville or East New York and then became, you know, kingpins, would-be kingpins or dead kingpins or locked up, you know, forever and ever, is that there was a sense that it could be over at any moment. And I think he had that too. So, no, he, the one thing like haters like me and acolytes on the other side, and even Tyson could agree on way back is that he was not long for the world I think there's you know, I think there's a line in the in the beginning of the book You know, whatever your bet on his life expectancy was, you know, it was take the under yeah, and he was of that position as well so I think that there's I

had to really reconsider him and I think, or I know, there's some virtue in just having survived. There's got to be something to that. But if you're going to look at, if you're going to assess a person, man or woman, by what he or she has survived, he's a tougher man than he was a fighter. I mean, look, surviving boxing in and of itself is not, you know, he's reversed everything because the end of one's career, especially in boxing, tends to be tragic. That's when you're in Palookaville,

and you're slurring your speech, or whatever. You're broke, all the things that happen to fighters. He's turned the third act into the great act. So his career is completely anomalous like that. Yeah. So his career was completely anomalous like that. But again, looking at what he survived, and I wanted to go back on this before, the drugs, the booze, the sort of fatal kind of fame,

but also the death of a child. And he married Kiki around the time. This book ends in 88. Yeah, and I want to ask you about that. So the death of a child, how much more can you get your ass kicked? Right. And if I'm correct, he marries Kiki right after the death.

And they're having a hard time, early part of the marriage. But so I think that's the transformative section, which I probably shouldn't be saying right now because I wanna keep it all to myself. No, no, no. So I just wanna ask, when you say that you killed him as a columnist, you were negative towards him, did you ever get word like, hey, Mike's mad at you?

If Mike finds you? I was like one of a million guys. Okay, but so no one was telling you, because now on the internet, it's almost like a smaller world, right? You do a show here, you say something, and someone's like, hey man, be careful. I get it all the time.

Most of that would happen in locker rooms. Okay. I mean, at that point, Mike was, you know, I remember the Mets wanted to kick my ass one time. Like the Mets as an organization or one specific? I don't know, we were having a beef with the Mets, I don't know, when I was young at the post. Like, I didn't care.

Yeah, you were ruthless. I thought I was, no, I wasn't ruthless. I wasn't ruthless, I definitely wasn't fearless, and I wasn't insensitive. Like if you called me on something, I'd think about it and you'd say, F you, or wow, you're right. I remember Mark Jackson telling me one time,

a lot of guys wouldn't talk to you after what you wrote, and I thought about Mark Jackson happened to be right that time. Mark Jackson on the Knicks or Mark Jackson on the Pacers? Mark Jackson on the Knicks. So like late 80s Jackson. Early 90s. Early 90s. Yeah gets traded to the Clippers. Mm-hmm. Man I love this. I love that you got to live this. I'm reading this book and I'm like you know at this point 50% in and I'm like wait a second we're not gonna make it to the next level. Well, that's what happened.

So you get to 88 and spinks, and look how thick this damn thing is. Was that always the plan? No, no, no. I mean, so they tell me like, well, you don't have to give the money back. Would you consider doing Tyson? I'm like, no, I'm not doing,

there's no way I'd take the money. I'm not doing Tyson. And as I was saying before, and this is, I was a little bit medicate, I was over medicated, okay, like a hamstring really hurts. And so I'm not like entirely in my right mind. And a friend of mine says, writer, you can't give money back, it's like your number one duty as a writer, like you cannot give money back, It's like your number one duty as a writer Like you cannot give money back. I said watch me. There's no way I'm doing this thing. I'm not reliving that shit and He told me you could write write it off the top of your head. You could do it now. I Said come on stop. I don't do it like that I you know, and he's a he's a TV writer very successful. So I'm like, you don't know what you're talking about

you know, this is and he actually, he gave me a book about Princess Margaret. I don't give a shit about Princess Margaret, the royal family, any of this stuff. The book was so well done procedurally, the way that the writer, a guy named Craig Brown, used anecdotes to tell you who Princess Margaret was and to give a shit about Princess Margaret. So like, if I can give a shit about Princess Margaret, the guy's really good. He goes, you could do Tyson like that.

So of course, like the meds are kicking in. I'm like, oh, maybe I could do it and I wouldn't have to give back the money. So I called up the publisher. I said, well, can I do it like as a kind of like essay? And it just, it was me bullshitting, it was me cheating. Because I didn't want to commit to a real biography, which is a pain in the ass and will test you

in ways that are really uncomfortable. He said, sure, whatever you want. Like he just, I guess he didn't want to have like the hole in his books, whatever you want. I guess he didn't want to have the hole in his books. Whatever you want. So this was supposed to be some kind of meditation on Mike Tyson and writers and fighters and boxing and newspapering. Because Tyson generates so much, sorry, my phone, so much story, it just got fatter and fatter and fatter and fatter.

Maybe I just don't have the ability to write short. That's perfectly reasonable conclusion as well. So, a couple years later, I'm having lunch with the editor. We had a fight in New York. We sit down and he goes, I really like the pages. I go, yeah, okay, that's great, but we talked about this elegant, slender book and we have about 80,000 words and Tyson's like, I think, 16 or 17 years old.

What do you want to do with this thing? Because it, you know. And he says, can you make it two parts? I told him the same thing when he... Absolutely not, no way. Because my theory of this was that everything... You had to get to the end because everything pays off. And the first chapter... I think the first chapter is somewhat incongruous now because the first chapter was from that first version of the book, which is more of an essay. The tone is a little bit different. It's a portrait of Mike in 2020 watching his daughter play tennis in Orange County, of

all places. And like, you could do all the hallucinogens you want. There's no way you could have ever imagined Tyson in that place. He couldn't have imagined it. I couldn't have imagined it. I couldn't have imagined it, no one could have imagined it. And that's where it begins, but that was sort of leftover from the first conception of the book,

and it became a prologue. So you are going to do multiple volumes. If I hopped up psychiatrically, yeah. You know, there's- Well, not multiple, another one. But what I had planned, I'm sorry, I lost the train of thought, I'm a little punchy at this point,

but there was supposed to be a payoff for everything. So like you see a Vander as a young man, not supposed to pay her. So I'm like, I can't do that. Same thing with Lennox Lewis. There's a scene, part of an extended chapter where Lennox spent the better part of a week there sparring with Tyson. And he leaves changed, I think. I don't know if he would say that, but he had a very parallel story with Tyson.

Wasn't an easy time Lewis had, but the first day of sparring, Tyson runs across the ring, tears him up, and by the, I think, third day, Lewis is hanging with him and giving as much as he gets, and I think he takes that with him. Like, I don't know, you know, you've been in a fight, you always remember. You always remember. I know guys talk about it's just sparring, but you still remember. But Lennox remembered that. Holyfield remembered certain things. So I imagined all of this stuff would pay off.

The reporting in journalism in a book like this, sometimes I feel like it gets overlooked. Oh, it's a book on Tyson No, the work that you have to do to get these stories and anecdotes. It's like you're living there It's like you're in those training camps, which I love and appreciate and there's one anecdote There's one story that really gave me chills And I'll paraphrase and maybe you could tell us a little bit more but it's the relationship with custom out of which has obviously been Talked about but but cuss saying to him, hey, the one thing I want is for you

to make me live forever. Well, he didn't say that, that's my take. Okay. And it's what Tyson pushed back on in one of our discussions. You know, my take was, you know, Cust and the Kid was always a beautiful story and it was created in large measure by writers who found Cuss a seductive figure over the years. So you know, Cuss always had, Cuss was a great storyteller.

Cuss knew what writers wanted. He was a great psychologist. He Cust knew what writers wanted. He was a great psychologist. He was an egomaniac. He was an eccentric. He's everything you want in a subject and he's incredibly articulate. But Norman Mailer, Gay Talese, I'm reading, you know, Gay Talese is great writer. And one of his first great pieces in Esquire was about Floyd Patterson. But I'm watching Gay Talis at the Times covering, I'm reading the clips sequentially of Gay Talis on CUS,

and I'm watching him become Gay Talis. Norman Mailer, guy who was my rabbi, Pete Hamill. So Tyson actually had literary cachet before he had street cred. As far as the immortal line, I suggested to Tyson that underneath Kuss saying you're going to be the youngest and the best was really an old man wanting to live forever. You know, like, I'll give you an example. Here's a comparison. Lennox Lewis goes to Canada from London, finds a wonderful coach named Arnie Beam, great amateur coach. Arnie Beam takes him in, helps the kid out,

but there's never any discussion about you're gonna be the greatest of all time. It's just you develop as a fighter. Arnie Beam had a job. Arnie Beam had a life. Arnie Beam had a life. You know, Arnie Beam was apparently content and just to help kids out and be an amateur coach. Cuss wanted to go down in history.

And he already had Floyd Patterson, but he had been in exile for years up in Catskill. And this is a story in large part, you know, I always talk about the fighter's ego, but this is in large measure a story set into motion by the trainer's ego. And so unlike Arnie Beam, who just accepts Lennox Lewis, we're gonna get really talented, we're gonna go forward, and at some point you're going to leave me go to the Olympics or whatever

you do. From the beginning, from the time Tyson is delivered to custom model, it's you're going to be the greatest, you're going to be the youngest, you're going to be the best, you're going to strike terror into everybody. And to me, I suggest to Tyson, you know, you're a 13-year-old kid, and what he's really telling you to me, what I'm saying is, make me, the coach, custom model, live forever.

Tyson pushes back on that. He goes, nah, you don't get it at all. I understand the debt he feels. He goes, but his answer is, well, didn't I? As long as people know my name, which is gonna be forever, they'll know his. So to me, it was an existential bargain. It was a Faustian bargain.

And, you know, Tyson may disagree with me, but I still think that Cuss was asking him in some sense, make me live forever. Considering you covered him extensively and you were in the midst of writing this book, how did you feel last November when you saw him come back in that fight against Jake on Netflix, watched by over 100 million people?

108, I think. Yeah, insanity. How did you feel as it was all coming together and then the after? Okay, the fight sucked. And my heart, my heart, I don't have any inside information on it, but my heart, I feel like Jake took it easy on him

after a while. And Tyson came out, I don't know if he trained that hard for it, I tend to think not, but my take is a little bit different than, oh, what a horrible shame it was. If you can command an audience, if you can get 108 million viewers or streams

or whatever the hell you call it now, that goes against everything in boxing history about being a has-been and a wash-up. Netflix needed, I don't think that Jake Paul could have done that with anyone else, could not have done that with anyone else but Tyson at 58 years old, okay? The idea that he still commanded that much economic might, and that he was getting paid, goes against the history of fighters and fighting.

That this guy, so far after his prime, first of all, was still addicted to him, but also that he had that kind of muscle. And he was, to my mind, whether you like the fight or not. And by the way, the two fights on the undercard were great. And no one would have seen the second Taylor-Sorano fight if it hadn't been on something like that.

And it deserved that platform. So I think Jake's a hell of a promoter, really do. He works his ass off. Some things he says are probably objectionable, but he knows how to promote. But what Tyson was doing for Netflix in that moment was not unlike what he had done for HBO back in the 80s. And a full decade before HBO invented Tony Soprano or, you know, brought

Tyson was even more crucial to HBO's command over the 18 to 49-year-old male demographic. At some point, I think it's through 87, their subscription rate is growing by five million bucks a month. Today that's like 14 million bucks a month. That's extraordinary, and it's based on one guy. And the only person who really saw, like Seth Abraham was a brilliant, I think brilliant, broadcasting sports executive.

He ran HBO Sports. But the only guy who really saw the big picture, the full picture, was Don King. And that's why he wanted, eventually he wanted to break with HBO because he saw that the future is not, the future's pay-per-view. Now it might be something else, but it, Shelley Finkel actually closes the deal for Tyson Spinks, but as he does it, he also realizes this isn't about ticket sales anymore.

It's not about a long-term deal with the network. It's about pay-per-view. And now we think of everyone as a pay-per-view fighter. There are very few pay-per-view fighters. This guy was one of them. I mean, there are very, very few actual pay-per-view fighters, but he changed the business. Reading in the book about the ABC days and then the HBO days and what he meant and then I started to think about the

current climate you work for ESPN you cover the top rank events so very well with the whole team there and I said this at the top of the show and and I keep thinking about it and I think I'm right if if if we all know it seems like the top-rank ESPN deal is coming to an end this has been reported if they don't sign with the linear TV network this could be the first time ever that boxing is not on any sort of linear TV Channel in any way shape or form If they sign with just a streaming platform

Which is a bit of a bummer and especially when you see how popular it is overseas and in particular in the UK But I don't I don't even watch like I Watch streaming now and like I'm an old fart. So you don't think it matters? What I think matters is do people know where to find the fights and are the fights good? You can't have a steady diet of A side, B side, where you know it's gonna happen. Every fight is supposed to tell a story. Now, some stories are complete novelties.

Tyson McNeely, for example, was a novelty, and the novelty was so intense, and the heat generated was so intense with Tyson coming out of prison that you were going to tune in and it was worth Tyson makes 30 million dollars a lot of that is King but you know a lot of that is the quality of the novel but you knew wasn't like McNeely was gonna win I find the problem big problem in boxing is where

is it when is it on, but also who's fighting. If I know who's gonna win, what the hell am I, if someone is that much of a prohibitive favorite, what the hell am I watching for? Yes, there are upsets. We saw one last week. And by the way, I didn't think Caleb Pan, this is another thing in boxing I'm getting off like what's everyone killing Caleb

plan for he lost wasn't wasn't like he dog did he lost I think what they're killing him for is that there was a big money fight there so why but how many times boxing keeps doing this to itself we just saw it time for her with with Haney and Garcia just boxing but but but I, but that's not Caleb Plant's fault. Sure, sure, he's just the latest example. What about Charlo held that middleweight belt for like an eternity, and that's not even on him. The WBC let him like hold on to that belt

without anything going on. But that's why you're having the grumblings or whatever you're, however you want to characterize it. I'm sorry, I got off track. No, no, no. I just, you know, because it was a big deal for Top Rank to get back on ESPN.

It was a big deal. Yeah, and I thought- I'm heartbroken. Yeah. How are you handling that? It was the best job I ever had. Really? Yeah.

I loved it. Why? I love boxing. I wanted to do boxing for the longest time and I got to do it. And then, you know, I was, I don't know what I was as a color guy. And I certainly needed more seasoning but we had a producer come in in 2019 named Mike McQuade who was pretty tough but essentially he recast me as an essayist and an interviewer and it was extraordinary. And for a TV guy without meaning to, I learned so much about writing again. It was hard to go back to this because when you do something like this, you have to take custody of an incalculable number of words.

But when you're writing for TV You want to shrink you want to shrink wrap everything? And it's not even like writing in complete sentences. You're you're it's almost like ad copy. You're writing in symbols You so that one word has to signify like what a whole chapter would hear But it was exhilarating and then I got to do like some stories that I just loved. You know, I loved going to Belfast to talk to Michael Conlon. I loved Tiafimo.

I know Tiafimo gets crazy, but I loved covering Tiafimo and his dad. Like I heard his dad's voice in the park I loved covering Tfemo and his dad. Like I heard his dad's voice in the park, like on 26th street my whole life, a voice like that. It was something I understood. I was so jealous of you guys, by the way, because on the UFC side of things,

the promotion controls the production. So your role doesn't exist. You know what I mean? You have to work for the promoter. I've always felt very strongly about that. You work for ESPN. Not top rank. That's a big difference. It is a big difference, but

I don't think... What I did also, as much as I invaded the fighters' intimate places, you know, like the, it also helped sell the fight. Oh, a hundred percent. But there's some freedom

that comes with that journalistically, which I was envious of, because it's an amazing thing to be able to be on the broadcast and not work for the promoter. But it's almost, but it's, I mean, look, it went to the promoter's interest because it sold the fight. Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I remember- I'm not saying that you're trying to knock them, but- No, no, no, no, I mean, look, it went to the promoter's interest because it sold the fight. I remember-

I'm not saying that you're trying to knock them, but- No, no, no, no, I understand that. But I mean, in another sport, it might not have been kosher. In this sport, it was because almost inevitably, what makes someone a fighter, or what leads to someone being a fighter, is the, somewhere along the line there's an emotional dislocation dysfunction and it's profound and some

and this is Tyson maybe example exhibit 1a of why that person is in that ring fighting. And it's fascinating, you know, the psychiatry of the sport is endlessly fascinating. To me at least. And I got to go there. And did so brilliantly. Do you have any idea if Mike or Kiki or anyone close to him has read the book? They've had it for a while. Okay, any feedback?

Directly, no. Okay. Good sign, bad sign? No, I, I, I, I, I, I think you're very fair. I mean, this is a brilliant portrayal. I, I think I was fair. I mean, I'm, um, I, I think if there were objections, I would have heard, like real objections, I would have heard already. Where's Robin Givens these days? Do not know LA, I guess. Did you work in?

Any contact with her? No. Okay. And I, you know, in the part of the book that I'm dealing with her, 1988, I wanted to stick to what she said when. Yeah. Because it changed a lot.

And whatever, that's, you know, was she pregnant? Was she not pregnant? I wanted, in many respects, I went back through the record of the time. I went through a lot of newspaper clippings. Yeah. Oh my God. I didn't know she dated Michael Jordan. I didn't know. I guess I missed that. I was too young. I learned that from you.

I mean, it was just a throwaway line, but I was like, what? I had to reread it three times. It was like the same Michael Jordan? The guy from the, um... What was the first, like hip hop? Bobby Brown? Trooper Hill Gang. Oh, okay. Yeah, like Master G, Master Somebody, I don't know. Him too?

So I think, I'm not sure. Yeah, yeah, it's a brilliant time capsule into such a period that I was a little too young to live. I was born in 82, but like I can't even imagine what it was like. Especially, I was talking to a mutual friend of ours, Aaron Cohen, yesterday. He's kind of like my mentor. He's my guy and he knows you well. And we were just talking about those house young days. Great writer, all those great HBO docs. The man, Bob Costas. Just about those days in New York where the newspapers were king,

where the executives were reading what you guys were reading, they were taking their cues from you. Well, I mean, look, I remember sitting at the bar, like at the Lion's Head or wherever it was, McGuire's, and like we'd all be sitting, you know, guys from the Post, the News. Smoking cigarettes? Love it. It was terrible. And, uh... The bundles being dropped outside,

at the newsstands, you go and like tear out the bundle, rip out a couple papers, and see like who got scooped, who wrote better, who wrote more. This is like three in the morning or something? No, the early edition would come up by 11. Okay, wow. Posts would come up first. You're all sitting there comparing.

And you see who was full of shit, who was not, who had the goods and who didn't. Yeah, wow. And it was visceral, and you didn't get to change it. Although I was so neurotic after I'd file a column, I'd get like a stack of quarters, kid you not, and go to the pay phone in the back of the bar like, hey, you know where I said the last paragraph, could you change it? Like the guy on the desk is like, come on, Mark, stop this shit.

But that's how nuts I was. Could you move the quote in the second graph? Could you could you move it lower and change it to? See you later. Well, you're a legend Congratulations on the book another great one baddest man the making of Mike Tyson by the one and only Mark Kriegel You have a bunch of appearances coming up. I think you're doing something in Brooklyn Brooklyn with Rosie Perez who by the way It's an interesting thing in this. For the most part, and I'm curious that Robin came up, but for the most part, the people who were most insightful on Mike were women. Rosie has a sort of bit part in the book,

but it breaks your heart. And like I hunted her down. Cause I just had like my gut was, I know she has something to say and it's going to be important. There were two anecdotes, one I'm saving for the second volume. But the first was, you know, she went through a lot of stuff.

Do we got to get off my- No, no, no, it's all right. She went through a lot of stuff as a kid and she's another person to be greatly admired. I just had, and I hunted her down. I was like, come on, I'm sure I was a huge pain in the ass. But she tells a story about early on, Mike hits on her, says something typically lewd, and she shuts his ass down.

And he just kind of slinks off instead of being ferocious Mike. And you know, one of the things that Mike rarely have ever heard was no. So she shuts him down. And I'm like, how did you know? And she says, you know that phrase, a game knows game? She says, damage knows damage. And it was heartbreaking. But she knew, and she did have really great insight into him. really great insight into him and she knew who at some level she knew who he was apart from all the bullshit and they became great friends. You're the man Mark thank you so much congratulations appreciate you stopping by good luck with everything I have a whole hour's worth more of questions but we'll save that for our time we got we got Derek Lewis? I'll come back you come anytime anytime. We'll take a quick break

Say goodbye to mark. We'll be back with the black beast. Don't go anywhere All right back on the program that was tremendous stuff with Mark Kriegel I highly recommend the book in the midst of all that while we're reminiscing about the the glory days of New York sports I get the word here that my beloved New York Knicks have fired Tom Thibodeau. Golly I have many things to say about this. This is wild but not completely unexpected. We'll save those thoughts because in a matter of seconds we're gonna be joined by a man that I've been chasing for the better part of three years, three and a half years to be exact. The last time I spoke to this man was January of

2022, January of 2022, and the amount of times that I've asked his great manager, Lou, for him to come on the program, I've lost count. In fact, I think he's changed his number six times just since that interview. And so I had no chance of connecting with him, but I do believe the MMA gods are smiling down upon us because I do believe that he is here. Is he actually here? Is the Black Beast there?

I don't believe my eyes. Derrick Lewis is back on the program. Three and a half years where have you been I still love you though in fact over my left shoulder here We have your we have your guy right here I still have you here on the studio as I drop every look at that right there I still represent the black beast even though you don't know I used to be in the front row Nah, you're still here somewhere that I got the toy somewhere else, but you're the freaking man Derek. I miss you by the way You know, are you a 205 or what? I mean, I don't know if it's been a bit you look so svelte

By the way, are you a 205er or what? I mean, I don't know if it's been a little, but you look so svelte. No, just because of the color shirt I got on. Oh, okay. Well, I miss you. How are you doing? What's up, man? What's up?

What's up? How are you doing? I'm good. I'm good. Where have you been for the last three and a half years? Sure, I've been around. Well, it's great to have you back. Thank you for doing this. Yeah, we knew that.

Yeah. So what's up? What you want to talk about? I just want to talk about life, how much we miss you. It's good that you're coming back in July, another main event. It's an amazing thing. We jotted down some stats here, which just speaks to how great you are. I believe, as of right now, this will be your 30th UFC fight it will be your

13th main event most finishes in UFC history most TKO slash KO finishes in UFC history in all divisions the second most wins in UFC history I mean you're a proper Hall of Famer yeah that's good I need to pay me like one. So I saw an interview that you did recently with MMA Junkie. You said you had to damn near beg to get this fight. Why? Oh, it just because a lot of guys, they want to fight. Then the guys that did want to fight, they already had fights booked. And there's other stuff that's behind it, you know, it's politics, man. It's also, it's part of, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's there's other stuff that's behind it you know it's politics man it's also it's part of it's it's descriptive it's part of the script what do you

mean the script what are you talking about yeah you know the whole UFC is scripted what does that mean it's it's part of the um part of the plan you in July, July 12th, you know, they want me to win first round knockout. So that's what's gonna happen? It's part of the script. Yeah, it's part of the script. So whoever want to make their bet, go ahead and make their bet. Well, I got to tell you, the script writers assigned to the heavyweight division right

now aren't doing a great job because it's not very compelling. It's very boring. Well, that's their fault. They want to give me no fight soon, so it's their fault. Who did you want to fight? It didn't matter who. You know, the one guy that the Dominican dude that say he's not black, he's Dominican. Who's that, Walter Cortez? Yeah. Okay. I would like to be, I wanna fight him. It would have been good to fight him in on March

whenever they were looking for a main event then. Why you? I wanted to fight him then. You've been ready for that many months. Like this will be four months in between. I've been training for four months straight. Okay. So I'm ready.

I'm ready. Can I ask, what do you make of this whole John Jones, Tom Aspinall saga? Bro, I don't know what's been going on. You tell me, what happened? Well, he last fought in November, John did. Tom is the interim champion. He's now the longest reigning interim champion. And he's like hinting that he's going to retire.

He doesn't want the fight. Tom is trying to get him to fight. UFC is not making an announcement. You know, like we're going on and on and on and on. The guy just wants to fight. Tom is going to go a year between fights now. He, he last fought, it took 60 seconds for him to be Curtis blades.

And, and I think what the general general consensus is defend or vacate, meaning John, are you going to fight? If not, stop fighting. Stop fighting. Stop fighting. Stop fighting. It took 60 seconds for him to beat Curtis Blades. And I think what the general consensus is, defend or vacate, meaning, John, are you gonna fight? If not, stop holding up Tom's career and the rest of the division. There's other people out there who need to live their dreams, right? I guess so, but you wanted to talk about me

or you wanna talk about John and the other dude? No, no, no, this is the first question actually about John or the other dude in fairness. No, no, this is the first question actually about John or the other dude in fairness. No, I don't give a damn what they got going on. All right, but you're a fixture in the division, so you're affected by all this and you're talking about not getting a cut. No, I'm not.

You're not? I mean, John holding it up, there's a trickle down effect. Is there not? Isn't there like a trickle down effect? No, it's not a trickle down, no. Shit, I'm in the top 10. Okay. I'm barely in the top 10.

They way down there. You know, I'm nobody the top 10. I'm barely in the top 10. They way down there. You know, I'm nobody right now. So I'm not worrying about them. That's what they wanna do, let them do that. Okay, fair enough. I could continue fighting these Texas Cal fighters, you know, the newcomers wanna come in and get their name. You know, I like fighting guys like that right now.

So keep them coming. Like the Sharers of the world, the guy you're fighting in July. Yeah, yeah. You know him? No, I don't know. I know he's tall. That's all I know about him.

Did you see his last fight? No. You got a big win. It was good. All right. Will you watch anything? No, I didn't watch nothing yet, but I'll go back and probably go ahead and study study this fight probably two weeks or something like that

You know right now you still love fighting. Do you love preparing for a fight the training camp the whole process? Yeah, no, I said I love fighting right now. You know, I'm happy happy to be fighting. Thank God for that, you know I'm happy to be fighting. Thank God for that. Because, you know, a little here and there, it almost couldn't happen no more, but I'm happy to still be here. Yeah, you just turned 40 in February, right? Yeah, that's what they said.

Happy birthday. Did you think that you'd still be fighting come 40? No, I didn't. No, I didn't. No, I didn't. What'd you think you'd be doing? 10 years ago, 10 years ago, I said I wouldn't be fighting whenever I'm 40. But whenever they hit me with that contract,

I said, shit, I can fight when I'm 50 now. Shit, go ahead, let's go. That was a couple of years ago, you were at the end of your deal, and some people thought that maybe you'd go and fight Francis in the PFL. Mm-hmm. Did that ever, then you just signed a couple of days later,

so it didn't seem like you ever really entertained that. We did entertain him, but it was the UFC just made a better offer. Oh really, okay. About a month, yeah. You were just going to the highest bidder though. You just wanted to get paid. Yeah.

I don't blame you. And plus, I like UFC. Everything about them is professional. Even me, I'm always professional. They treat you well still? Yeah, they treat me pretty good. I got my PR lady, Noby, and she's one of the best in the business.

She always makes sure everything gets taken care of. You gotta go through her before you get to me. Okay, maybe that was the problem. Yeah, you're going through the wrong people. I was going through Lou, my guy. Not Lou, man. He need to get on his game also, man. Since he wanted to book this interview, tell him, oh man, you gotta do it.

Since he wanted to do all that, I'm gonna let you know to tell him that he need to get on his game. Shit, I should be having some sponsors or something. No, I mean, maybe if you were on the show and got out there more, your visibility, more people would wanna be in business and sponsor you. Nah, there's a lot going on right now in the world. No, I'm not gonna say that, but. Okay, what were you gonna say? What were, you know. No, I'm not going to say that, but...

Okay, what were you going to say? What were you going to say? No, I'm not saying... You watching everything that's going on in the world right now? Yeah, which part of the world? There's a lot of things going on. Where are you from? Well, I'm originally from Canada. I thought you were Jewish. Oh, yeah, okay. Maybe that's what you're...

I am Jewish, but I'm not from Israel, if that's what you're referring to. Oh, okay. My mom's from Lebanon and my dad's from Egypt, but are you referring to the conflict in Israel slash Gaza? Oh, no, no, no. That's not what I'm talking about. Oh, okay.

Well, we can talk about that too, if you want. I'm happy to talk about it. Yeah, it's just saying what's going on over there, that's all. too, if you want. I'm happy to talk about it. Yeah, it's just saying what's going on over there, that's all. Yeah, it's awful. A lot of innocent people getting hurt on both sides. Amen. No one wants that. Wow, this really took a dark turn here. It's not, you know, you ain't talking about nothing. You're a worldly guy.

You know, I was thinking about you. My door dash order, I'm about to pull up right now. No, no, no, please, please. What'd you order? Some Chinese food. Okay. Some spice. I was thinking about you a couple months ago, and I'm so happy we're talking when George

Foreman passed away, because you used to have a relationship with him, right? I mean, didn't he kind of want to take you down the boxing path? Yes. Did you? Yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Okay. Did you keep in touch with him in his later years? No, I didn't. I didn't keep in touch with him in his later years. No, I didn't. I didn't keep in touch. So what's crazy is I ended up moving right around the corner from like less than a mile away. It was my neighbor for the last three or four years and I didn't even know it.

Wow. This is in the gated community that you live in now. It's not even a gated community. I live on a compound. I heard you have like a very bougie lifestyle now. That's what I was told. He lives on a compound also. I think he got, I have 20 acres.

I think he lives on 10 acres. You have 20 acres now? Yeah. What a success story. This is amazing. I love it. Yeah, I appreciate UFC for it. Thank you. With George, when he first met you and was trying to guide you in the fight game, did

you know that this was like big George Foreman? Like, were you aware of who he was and what he had done? Yeah, yeah, I knew George. Everybody knew George. You know, I like to eat. So I was looking up the George Foreman grills back then. Sure, sure. That's how you knew him.

That's how I, yeah. I was studying up on him from that. How close were you- I watched on the TV shows. How close were you to just being a boxer as opposed to an MMA fighter? It was really all about the work that I felt like I really didn't have to train at all to be an MMA fighter. Shit, boxing, them boys be getting up early running all day. I just felt like

I'd get a lot tired. I can't hold and all that in boxing like I can in MMA. So that's the reason why I like, I pick MMA over boxing because I can hold and I can lay on the ground for a little bit, catch my breath and get back at it. But in boxing, you can't do none of that. Right. That's the reason why I step with MMA more. But the rounds are longer in MMA.

Your cardio, I think, has to be a little bit better. Well, not necessarily. Not if you wanna just take the guy down, let the guy take you down, you can just go ahead and chill for a little bit. Right. Then get up, yeah. Do you think you'll ever go down boxing path

or do you think you'll finish your career as an MMA fighter? I'm gonna finish my career as an MMA fighter. Unless they wanna try to pay me some good money, you know, like what they saying now, fuck you money. If they want to do that, then yeah, I'll do boxing. But other than that, no, I'm not, I'm not with all that. What happened? I do the, I try to, the slap, slap, whatever.

Yeah. What's it called, slap? Yeah. That's the name of it? Slap fighting. Yeah, I would do that. I would have to go first every time though. That's the name of it? Lap fighting. Yeah, I would do that. I would have to go first every time though. That's crazy.

If I don't knock my guy out, I'm gonna go ahead and forfeit. That's the way I'm gonna go. I think you would be very successful. I gotta go first. I gotta go first. I'm letting them know I gotta go first. Okay.

I'm not about to sit there and let anybody slap me. You're the ASAP. I'm gonna keep jumping anyways. I'm gonna get penalized. I can't do it. Can I ask you what happened back in November when you were supposed to fight? I had caught my period that same day. What are you talking about?

Cramping. I was very moody. I was moody. Had my period that same day. What are you talking about? I was very moody. I was moody. My period started. And I didn't wanna go out there and fight like that. So I had cramps, bleeding everywhere. I didn't bring no extra pads. And so I didn't- What are you talking about?

I heard you tell this story already. This can't be true. Yeah, look. Okay. You wanna see pictures? No, I don't. Okay, then. Believe what I'm saying.

You were sick. That's what happens. No. I mean, you weren't feeling- This is my monthly thing. Okay. So if I wanna identify as a woman, you gotta go with it. Sure, sure.

I know Trump ain't office right now, you know, that he don't allow that no more. But if I'm saying that I want to identify as a woman at that time period, that's what I wanted to do. Okay. Do you still identify as a woman? No, not no more. Not no more. You know, Trump in office, no, I can't do that. I can't more, no more.

Trumping office, no, I can't do that. I can't say that no more. No, I'm not a one-pronged anymore. Are you happy about that? Are you happy that he's back? Of course. That's, I don't know. I make too much damn money now.

Sure. God damn right I'm at. What does that have to do with him though? No man, see, that's what I'm saying. That's why I don't wanna talk to you man. Don't worry about what's going on man. That's the main one. Okay.

Let me say what I wanna say, that's it. I'm stressing right now, Derek. You know why? Because I feel like it took me three and a half years to get you back and I feel like I'm losing you again. Well, you need to open that box of me and put me in the front. Which one, which one?

I'm going to be all over you. This one? Yeah, open it. Somebody might not even be in there. Somebody probably stole it. It's not here. I knew it, I knew it. I don't know where it is. Where is this guy? Where is he? Someone stole it. You know what? That's why nobody like you man. Why?

What does that have to do with me? I didn't steal it. Where I'm at? Like where I'm at? It's a great question. I can't find you. Yeah, you threw that shit across the way since I ain't wanna return none of your calls. Did they pay you, these guys? MMA Bobblehead? Yeah, they paid me. By the way, I saw your store on Etsy. Shout out to the store. You've got great merch.

Appreciate it. Thank you. Look at this. Look at this plug right here. Everyone should go check it out. Look at us hooking you up. Yeah, appreciate it. Are you doing things outside of fighting in terms of business? Yeah, I'm at the office right now. What are you doing? What's the business? Car wash. Oh, wow. Detailing?

Detailing, ceramic, washing, and this half of the car was in the washing. Ooh, wow, you own this? Yes, I'm co-owner. And how many locations? Two. Amazing. Was this a dream of yours to own a business like this? Well, it was a bit of a dream of mine

to own a business, period. You know, I'm 40 now, I got a, you know, I like the lifestyle that I live right now, you know, I know I have to be smart with it. So that's all, you know, I like the lifestyle that I live right now, you know, I know I have to be smart with it So that's all you know, I will continue living my lifestyle that I live by after fighting also Does your wife still own the the salon? Yes You're doing real estate also

So we're buying properties and all the properties that I'm buying is really coming back to the house because you get a big percentage. Wow. What a success story. Like 15, 20 years ago, you could have never dreamed of this. Yeah, for sure. You know, be around the right people, man. That's all. Just be around the right type of people. You know, you're Jewish, man. You know that. Yeah, for sure. You have any Jewish people in your life? No, I guess I need you back in my life. That's right. Well, you talk to me about a business plan. But you seem to be well. I need this land, and also it's this land that I want to buy, man. They, you know, it's from Nigerians. They don't want to get up off of it. So I need a Jewish guy to go over there and talk to him. Okay. I could be, I could be that guy for you.

And also, you know, if somebody here illegally own, and they own property or whatever, how does that go? You know, cannot like try to fight and take that from them since they're here illegally? Is this a metaphor that you're trying to present to me? I'm just saying, same thing you be doing me. What do you mean I be doing with you? It's the same type of question you asked me. So I want you to explain that to me.

If someone is in America illegally and they own property mm-hmm can you take the property from them? Yeah, they have a business but they're here illegally but they have a business. But why would you be the guy who would be allowed to take it from them? Like you don't own it just like technically they don't own it, I guess. Yeah, I know that's what I'm saying. So if I want that what they have, can I take that from them? But since they're here illegally. No, I don't think so.

Okay. That's all I was wondering, you know. Is there a business or property that you want? You know, is there is there a business or property that you want? No, it's a name. It's a name that I want but they have it but I know they're here illegally. What's the name? What kind of business No, I can't I can't even say that why we so afraid say it, everybody's going to know what business it is. No, just the type of business, not like the specific business. The type of business it is, I guess you could say the people that's in there, they sweat. Everybody in there sweat.

Everyone in there sweats like a gym. Maybe, I don't know. everybody in that sweat. Everyone in their sweats like a gym. Maybe, I don't know. Okay. Why don't you just open your own business? No, because they have their name. I like their name. Oh, I got it. Okay.

All right, that's a doozy. Yeah, so that's what it is. And how do you know that they're here illegally? Because I knew that. But how? I was 18 and I knew that. But how? I was aiding and abandoning. No, no, I'm joking. No, no, I was, I just knew they was here illegally.

That's all. All right. Because they went, they got, they got deported a couple of times and came back. Okay, wow. Geez. See, I'm getting myself in trouble now, man. No, no, I'm just trying to, I was just trying to help you out. You said you needed to be- I won't do it no more interviews. No, that's not true. I speak my mind. trouble now, man. No, no, I was just trying to help you out. You said you need-

I won't do it no more interviews. No, that's not true. I speak my mind. Yeah, it is. I think it's better when you're doing interviews because we get to see like a, it's like a window into your thought process, into your soul,

and you're one of the more interesting people in the sport. Nah, man. I would like to do, like what they call a twitch. Oh yeah. I would like to do like what they call Twitch. Oh yeah. I would like to start that up, but I don't know how to do it. Man, Rampage is doing a lot of stuff over there. He's like doing like streaming for hours and hours.

Yeah, I just can't do that. That part of that, I can't do it hours and hours. Unless they pay good, I don't know how much they pay sure I think some of them you know DJ is doing a lot of stuff on YouTube so a lot of fighters doing stuff now but I feel like you want to be left alone it's certain people I don't like talking to that's all no I know yeah who are those people by the way no I'm just kidding. Don't answer that. That's a trick question. I'm sorry. You already know I, nobody likes you. So you are. Why? Why are you being so? What you at now? I'm not being me. I'm just being real. You say nobody likes me. Where am I at? I'm in New York City. This is my studio. I know. What platform you on? You're my own ESPN. Hell no.

You love, you love bringing that up. I'm long gone from them. I own my stuff now. I'm my own boss. So where people watch your show at? On Facebook? No, on YouTube, on X, formerly known as Twitter. It's the Ariel HaWani show, three days a week. We've got the boys in the back on Thursday, the crack on Friday. Uncrowned. You've heard of this, right? Uncrowned. it's the hottest thing going in combat media we've partnered with sports we partner with Yahoo Sports we've licensed the the business to them for three years it's doing pretty well we cover boxing we cover wrestling we cover MMA we've been doing a lot since we last spoke. Oh, so you're not even on cable TV. You're on some bullshit.

Nah, no one's on cable TV. The UFC is hardly even on cable TV these days. I'm definitely wasting my time. Nobody's gonna watch this shit. You were only friends with me because... How many followers you got? How many people tuned into this? Thousands. Okay, 2000, all right.

Yeah, that's not bad, right? Well, I guess that's a waste of time, man. It's a waste of time, really? You regret- Yeah, nobody watching. Nobody watching you, man. You regret this? I do, like I said, it's a waste of time. My door dash order, the lady said that one of my orders on me.

One of your orders? She had the substitute, so I can't even respond because I'm on his damn video. Why so much animosity? I thought that this would be like a warm fuzzy. So you remember you did the show, you did the show at in Las Vegas, the trivia show. We had a great time. Yeah, look how he did me. Where's my bobblehead? Where's my mannequin dude? That is that is a good Where is it? I really would love to know myself. It's a great question. I mean I had the picture I thought that that was enough. I thought it was enough. Look at this. Look at the love that I've shown you even even though you haven't been on the show for three plus years. I still put you front and center. Oh no, I was in the back in a corner over some,

what is that? Some bullshit jersey you had over my head, covering me up. Oh my gosh. And somebody stole from a Jewish man? What? Yeah, that's weird. You let somebody steal from you?

Isn't that crazy? Times has changed. They have changed. Maybe we're not as we see. So this fight's coming up in Nashville. You've got the hat going. You've got the shoes ready. You're gonna get down.

I saw you there. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. My feet was hurting like a motherfucker too, man. My feet was hurting like a moth, or two way. My feet was toe up. Yo, you're so slim. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's still, hold on, being in trouble finding out. The door dash?

Yeah. You wanna go get it? No, it's all right. She used, it was some, like a diet coke or something like that. She wanted to do a substitute. Oh, wow. Well, your last fight was in May. You're probably itching to get back in there. Yeah, yeah. I'm very happy to get back in there. You know, God said to say everything goes good. You know, my health and everything else, I don't start nothing, nothing try to pop up on me that week.

Yeah, I'm happy with it. And you're saying first round knockout, you've seen the script. That's the script, yes. Okay. That's the plan. And then you win that knockout, you get a title shot. No, I ain't trying to, no title shot, yeah no.

I want to just fight, continue fighting like Texan cab drivers right now. And then we can start talking about title shots. So what year, like how old do you want to be? I don't know, we'll just see. I don't know, we'll see how accurate they try to keep me. How many fights left on the contract I need six. Oh, wow

Six or seven, you're not going anywhere Yeah, so what you got going on Um, well you get paid doing that you get paid. Yeah, we're doing pretty well. We're doing pretty well So how much you get paid? Um, so she asked me all these questions. How much you get paid? Well to be to be clear, I didn't ask you how much you were getting paid I said how many fights okay, so I'll tell you how many how many years left I want to get deeper which two so years how your contract going right now You gotta be signed a contract to tune two years plus left. It expires in 2027

Okay, then what you gonna do I think I want to keep it going Very happy and very content. It's been a great partnership I'm not worried about talking about these things you think you're turning the tables on me, but this is just you know This is just life. You're where yeah You think you're turning the tables on me, but this is just life. But yeah, no, it's not like. So what do you got going on besides talking about bullshit all day?

What other business adventures you got going on? I wish I was like you. I don't have any other business ventures. I need to be like you. You're inspiring me right now. I don't have a car wash or something like that. How old are you? I am 42.

42? Hell 42. 42? Hell yeah. Yeah, God damn. I'm old, huh? You're two years older than me. Yeah, but I feel like I'm behind you. Do you think I'm doing well or do you think I need to reevaluate?

Man, you need to look yourself in the mirror and see if you want to still do this. No, I think I do. I've had to eat a lot of shit sandwiches, Derek, and I'm still here. Stronger than ever. Yeah, I've seen that. See that? I've been working out. Mm-hmm. The left hook. Not the best spot for it, but they call it the Helwani left. Okay. Well, I think this has been a lot of fun. Did you have any other questions?

No, we need to find my bobblehead. Yeah, that's a... I have Kimbo here. I have DC. Yeah, that's an extra thing to do. I have Kimbo here. I have DC I have DJ Jorge Randy Nick it is weird But I'm gonna get to the bottom of this and I'm gonna text you if you could just tell me what your new number is Because I think you change your number Yeah, I know you're not fortunate enough to get my number but so don't even worry about that why you change your number so much because I'm fortunate enough to get my number, so I don't even worry about that. Why you change your number so much? Because. Don't worry about all of that, man.

You know it. On my phone, it's like nine numbers for Derrick Lewis. I keep them all, just for nostalgia. Yeah, and all my close friends got the same thing. They even marked it down to the year. Oh, really? Yeah, year and month. And you probably, since the last time we spoke, you probably have like three or four new numbers.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you wanna share, we can. Usually it's a new year, new me. Okay. Like, you know, when everybody come for evaluation, my circle comes up, I get everybody out evaluation, secretly, they don't know that though.

But secretly I give them an evaluation. If somebody I feel like that I gave my number to, they really ain't keeping it real or whatever. You cut them out. I just get, yeah, I cut them out. Okay, so I was cut out a long time ago apparently. I like, yeah, I cut them out. Okay. So I was cut out a long time ago, apparently. Yeah, for sure. I like people that's like fun to be around, you know?

We never really hung out on- We have good energy. You know, don't try to do shady stuff behind people back, talk crap about people. Don't come to me gossiping about anybody. I don't care. I don't care if I don't even know him. I don't hear nothing but no gossip. So I feel like if you're doing that to them,

you'll do it to me. So I don't hear it. We call it la shana ra, like bad mouthing. Mm-hmm, okay. But you know, that's how I am. I like to drink. I like to do other kind of stuff out there. So I just like to hang with I like to do other kind of stuff out there.

So, I just like to hang with people that like to do the same thing. Yeah. What kind of drinking? Like what kind of alcohol? Oh, just wine. Just like a lot of wine and tasting stuff like that. Just only the finest. Red or white?

It all depends on how I feel. You know, all depends. All depends on the type of restaurant I'm at also. Pinot Noir or Pinot Grigio? Both, actually. Okay. And you know, I go to State 48, Mastros. They already know just keep a bottle ready.

Yeah. As soon as I get there. Those are places in Houston? Okay. Well, maybe one day we could go together. No, we can't. Oh. I'm not invited?

Hell no. I was told that I was invited to the cookout. That's what people told me. No. No. Okay, let's see. Let's see what type of shoes you got on right now. I got my my action bronzons. You see them right here? The the Bam Bam Baklava's. No, go to the go to this one. You see them right here? These are nice. New Balance, my guy Bam Bam Baklava, action bronzin.

Ah, man, you fell off. I fell off? Bam Bockelva, Action Bronson. Nah man, you fell off. I fell off? Yeah man, you used to have on, you used to have on on. Fresh Nikes, SBs? Yup. Well, that's when we were friends.

My life has been a mess. You still married? Yeah. You? Oh yeah, I understand, yeah. Yeah, my life a mess too. You married? Yeah. You? Oh yeah. I understand, yeah. My life a mess too. How many kids now?

Now we good. We got three. Three kids? Yeah. Any of them wanna be fighters? No. They wanna be basketball, soccer. I love it.

Football. They have a chance? Yeah, they have a chance. They're great athletes like their papa. Pretty strange. Yeah. Yeah. They're good at leaps. Okay. How old is the oldest? 21. Wow. 21. Holy crap. I remember you used to tell me that you used to play video games and one was like cutting your hair. Yeah, yeah, that one right there just turned 12. Wow, they still do that? Yeah. Wow. Yeah, now they kicking me and kicking my butt

in Minecraft, we been playing Minecraft a lot. Yeah. And kicking my butt in that. They been doing better than me. Roblox? Roblox also. Fortnite? Of course, they just want me to play Roblox with them so I can keep buying them them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Roblox, the bucks or whatever they call it.

Yeah, Robux. Who keeps texting you? DoorDash. Still? No, they just brought my food out, she was just saying thank you for the tip. Okay. What'd you get?

Chinese food. Man, Kung Pao chicken? General Tso, Tso, Tso. General Tso? Tso, yeah. That's good stuff, I love that. Some dumplings. Oh, wow. And some vegetable spring rolls.

Just for you? Yeah. What else? I haven't eaten today. Okay. And some other stuff that I ain't gonna tell you because they gonna be, oh man, he eating bad. Oh yeah, yeah, you don't wanna out yourself.

Any, by the way, any trolls coming to the gym? Oh, I don't know, I yourself. Any, by the way, any trolls coming to the gym? I don't know. I wish I had a sport in the law. I have a sport in me. Well, I have to say it's wonderful to see you. I don't want your food to get cold. That's how thoughtful I am. Appreciate you. And will you come back soon?

Maybe after the fight? No, it all depends. It all depends on how the politics goes. What do you mean by that? We gotta keep track of the politics. Which politics? It's all depends on how the script goes. Okay.

No, I'm scripting not to like you. Okay, right now we're beefing. Yeah, you know, Dana White don't like you, so I don't like you. That's not true. That's actually part of like a storyline. No, it's a part of the script, sorry. Well, you know, we have to stick together.

The Jews, the blacks, we stick together. We're like one, arm in arm. Man, you better read the news. No, listen. Look at the news, read the newspaper. We stick together. We were your only allies back in the day. Arm in arm in the South. Like you said, back in the day, what about now?

Yeah, what about now? Yeah. That's right. Who turned on who? What about them tunnels and all that? What about them? We're not going to talk about all that right now. We can talk about whatever you want. Don't believe everything you read. The tunnels y'all had going on in New York.

Yeah, what about them? What's all that? Tell me about them. What's the tunnels about? What do you know about them? Shit, I don't know nothing about them. You seem to know a lot about them. I just seen video of them tunnels.

What y'all got going on over there? I don't know. Man, you all know y'all talk to each other. Y'all keep y'all close. You're crazy. I know. You you all know y'all talk to each other. Okay, y'all close. You're crazy. I know. You're crazy. You're crazy.

This is some crazy stuff. Oh, no, no, you're calling me crazy. And I see I ain't talking to you no more, man. You know, offend me by calling me crazy. You can't believe everything you see on the internet. Yeah, you can. All right, fine. All right. So whenever I post my picture of the reason why I pulled out, don't believe it then.

Oh, you're going to post it? No, I ain't going to post it. Okay, see, there you go. There you go. Case closed. Enjoy your food. Great to talk to you. Good luck in July. Looking forward to it. And don't be a stranger. Yeah, I will. I appreciate it. Looking forward to it and don't be a stranger. Yeah, I will. I appreciate it. All right, Derek. God bless. See you in 10 years. Yes, can't wait. There he is. Derek Lewis.

He's some kind of piss that Derek Lewis, huh? Now what's happening? Fucking hell. Yeah, fucking hell. Good to talk to him again. In the midst of all that, I'm seeing all kinds of stuff here. What's happening? Oh. That was unprompted.

I thought maybe you had something. Oh, I don't know. What's this about Sean O'Malley? We created a real atmosphere in his gym from the locker. Wow. Is this from Embedded? No, I think it's from his YouTube channel. That was just, that was, that was for maybe tomorrow's show. Oh, okay, all right.

I wasn't sure. I was seeing all this stuff. Man, Derrick Lewis, Derrick Lewis was on one today. He was feeling himself. Where did it all fall apart? And he's always on one. Where did it all fall apart? And he's always on one. Where did it all fall apart? I mean, I think it fell apart the first time we met,

but I think it's coming. No, that's not true. Is it coming from a place of love, or did you not feel love this time? I don't know. It seemed exactly like the last time you talked to him, three and a half years ago. Yeah, I guess you're just checking every three and a half years

once you find his phone number. He's always been somewhat like a conspiracy theorist, no, I mean he lives on the internet, he would always find those like weird videos. He's okay. That he's okay. Yeah, no wonder he's still harping on the... And no, but it used to be a regular fixture of the show.

No, he came to our live show. Came to our live show? 2000, I think it was 19, with TST in the house, in Vegas, the trivia show. Yeah. I don't know. I enjoyed it was 19 with TST in the house in Vegas the the the trivia show. Yeah, I Don't know I enjoyed it For the most part general so what was it called general T so T so To watch I believe we talk about this I have to admit my my my thoughts were on one Tibbs

The the silver lining is I don't have to hear American my thoughts were on Tibbs. The silver lining is I don't have to hear American broadcasters call him Thibodeau anymore. It was always Thibodeau, AKA Thibodeau. Our organization is singularly focused on winning a championship for our fans. This pursuit led us to a difficult decision to inform Tom Thibodeau that we've decided

to move in another direction. We can't thank Tom enough for pouring his heart and soul into each and every day of being the New York Knicks head coach. He led us not only with class and professionalism for the past five seasons but also to tremendous success on the court with four playoff bursts and four playoff series victories. Ultimately we made the decision we feel is best for our organization. Tom will always be a part of our Knicks family and we truly wish him nothing but the best in the future. This

takes a lot of guts. I didn't think that they would pull the trigger on this one because of the loyalty that they have for Tom. But I was saying to someone, I was saying to John Jastremski just a couple days ago, I feel like my two favorite teams, the Knicks and the Bills, are stuck in the same spot because I wonder if both of them have gone as far as they could possibly go with their current head coach. We've seen teams make these tough calls and and enjoy great success as a result, most notably the 2019 Raptors who fired the head coach of the year, Dwayne Casey,

hired Nick Nurse and went to the finals of course, acquiring Koy Leonard helped tremendously. But I do feel to a degree that Tom and McDermott have taken their teams as far as they could possibly go. So I don't hate this. I wonder, is there any talk of who they may sign? I have not been online, but Mike Malone comes to mind. Yeah, that's the name that's on everybody's. And I would, I would be happy with Mike Malone. Won an NBA title in 2023. His father was an assistant coach with the Knicks, Brendan Malone way back in the

day. Metta world peace, put his, put his name in the hat, I'll tell you that. What's Mike Woodson up to these days? Mike Woodson is with Indiana. No, he was a Knicks coach already. You're talking about Mike Woodson? Bring him back. No. He just retired. Ah, enjoy your time. You know what I would hate to see and love to see? Johnny Bryant. Jason Kidd. No, Johnny Bryant. Johnny Bryant is- I'd hate that because we have him.

Well, he's a finalist for the jazz job. Oh, is he? I just saw that today. Well, then there you go. But he was with the Knicks for a long ass time. Yeah, you should get him back. He's a great coach. Wow.

Well, I will say this to everyone kind of celebrating this. If you were watching the Knicks over the past two decades, you remember Larry Brown, you remember Lenny Wilkins you remember Isaiah Thomas you remember Derek Fisher you remember Mike Miller you remember David Fisdale you remember Jeff Hornacek Tom Thibodeau brought great stability to the Knicks and great success as well and so it's it's mixed emotions. There are some odds I'm seeing on who the next coach for the next is going to be. Okay.

Plus 240, Johnny Bryant. This one's going to get Rick too. Yeah. Plus 400, Kenny Atkinson. Yeah, no chance. I would love Kenny Atkinson. Stop this. I would love Kenny Atkinson.

New York guy got a raw deal with the With the Brooklyn Nets Who's Kenny coaching these days Kenny's got the calves the coach of the fucking year and he's not going anywhere. Oh Yeah, wow. I just got a text from just Jastrem ski right now saying I f and hate this By the way, I listened to that episode it was good. I appreciate that you did the same tip of dough Are we happy or we we sad, Ariel? I am... Different? Definitely not indifferent.

Processing. Appreciative, but ultimately I respect the gumption and I respect them pulling the trigger. Gumption, great word. I respect them saying we are not going to settle that this wasn't good enough. And I never bought into the minute stuff, but I did buy into some of the frustrations with the rotation and just being sort of stuck in his ways.

Do you know what I mean? Oh yeah. He's a little bit stuck in his ways. He doesn't what I mean? Like he's a little bit stuck in his ways. He doesn't play rookies. He doesn't go deep. Um, he didn't, he didn't tinker with the lineup, maybe tinkered a little bit too late with bringing in, uh, Mitch into the starting lineup.

But, uh, it's, I mean, how many times this might be one for the stats and info group, a coach leads the team to the Eastern Conference final and gets fired. The last one might actually be Dwayne Casey who lost to the Cavs in the Eastern Conference final, won Coach of the Year and got fired. Remember that? Jordan was telling us earlier a lot of coaches of the year get fired the next season. Yeah, curse, sign of death, whatever the phrase is.

Monty Williams, Mike Brown, Tom Thibodeau, Mark Daniels on that list. But Tom isn't a reigning coach of the year. Dwayne was the reigning coach of the year. No, Jordan, wasn't it the year after? Isn't that what you were saying? I don't think Tom was coach of the year last year. No, I think it was 2021.

Yeah, that great year when they came out of nowhere, the We Here Julius Randall Knicks. And then the Hawks gentlemen swept them out. Yeah, it was awful. Should have been fired back then. I agree. But anyway, exciting times, exciting times. My vote is for Mike Malone. That's who I want. Becky Hammond? I'm sticking with Mike Whitson. Hell no. Becky Hammond? She'm sticking with Mike Lutson.

Becky Hammond coaching a Jalen Brunson? She has worse odds to be coached than Jeff Van Gundy right now. What's wrong with Becky Hammond? She talked mad shit about Brunson. She said he's not the guy and all that. Screw that. We're muted over here.

Let the record show it wasn't really mad shit. It was just saying. That was accurate? Can't be the best player on the championship. Bro, keep yourself muted. Keep yourself muted with takes like that. I say hire Becky Hammond. I don't see what you...

Mike Malone's a great coach. Mike Malone's a great coach. Everyone, stop shitting shit. Johnny Bryant's a great coach too. Mike D'Antoni, plus 2000. Stop it with that. Oh, I'm down for D'Antoni. From the great New York basketball account,

no culture before TIBS, no culture, 309 win percentage, six, six years worse than the NBA, no playoffs, seven years under Tibbs culture back 5 65 winning percentage, four out of five playoffs Eastern conference final, 2025 Tibbs the man. It's okay though, to say like he brought culture and stability to it, and then we need something else for the move forward. I don't think that's disrespectful to say what's what's really telling about this and I see a Josh Hart tweet saying forever grateful

What's really telling about all this the last question that Jalen Brunson was asked at the postgame press conference was about is Tibbs the guy to lead this team and he was you know Annoyed by the question and said are you really gonna ask me ask me that? Of course he's the guy. I back him. And here, two days, three days later, he's gone. You'd have to think he knew about this. If he didn't, that would be a big problem. One name we haven't brought up, the great Rick Brunson. Is it his time to shine?

Papa leading the charge. A little bit of a conflict there. Why conflict? It's his dad. It's the old man. There's a conflict. You know conflict? It's his dad, it's the old man. There's a conflict. You know, representing. Representing what?

The best player. It's his father, he's an assistant coach. Yeah, I don't know. Doc and Austin never really got it right. It didn't work. All right gents, I need to go take a shower after that Derek Lewis interview, so we're gonna. A shower?

I don't know, I'm just off. We got a Dazon show to get to. Fuck. Hard out of. There's no worse feeling than me thinking I'm gonna hear the da da da da da, and I get to that, let's go. It's gonna wake you up in the middle of the night.

Bingo writes in nothing. They sent 499, got four thumbs up, we appreciate it. God bless. What else? Bingo then writes in, no other league has a number two if you think about it. I get they deserve more than the bouncing a ball, but I still also, how about the ref came from Saturday? Am I, is my brain melting?

Ref cam? Cam? Ref cam, for sure. Ref cam. Where's your brain at? This stream of consciousness though is something to hold. Which ref cam from Saturday, UFC? Oh yeah, yeah.

Oh, but what does that have to do with the number two? And what's the bouncing ball? No, there was like four separate thoughts on that. Oh, and what's the bouncing ball? Oh, this is the same guy that sent an empty one beforehand. What bouncing ball? I think he's comparing UFC to ball leagues. Jesus.

But just bouncing a ball is crazy. Yo, I saw some people saying, let's get a tribute to Jordan Breen on the UFC broadcast two ball leagues. Jesus. But just bouncing a ball is crazy. Yo, I saw some people saying, let's get a tribute to Jordan Breen on the UFC broadcast this Saturday. That would be incredible. That would be. I would love to see that, and he deserves it.

But I don't know. I don't know if they will do that. It would be a great, great thing. I mean, five seconds would be amazing. Think of that. What else, what else? RK Mark II sends 50 pesos. I believe John has knowledge of a Tom versus Alex title fight

having suggested it to the UFC and under a non-disclosure agreement has agreed to face the winner in 26. I believe, wait, say it again. I believe John has knowledge of a Tom versus Alex title fight. No, that's not true what is that 50 bucks 50 pesos yeah from RK mark 2 how much is that 50 pesos no how much is that know what the current only around 499 what else what

else take from Windy City holy crap Nick's of sacked tibs is Jake from the UK no one says sacked here in America. He says he's from Windy City. I know. So like, why are you saying sacked bro? What do you also say? One nil? The Super Chats are like a one-way conversation. What else? Arthur, G.C. is a driver of Boys in the Back, Frank is sound, appreciate it, Pizza Carol writer in his show. What does Eric actually do to be executive producer besides, yeah, this is.

Not a damn thing. It's a nice life. This is a nice life. People only knew how much we get done because of Rick. They would not say shit like this. No, that's okay. The amount of stuff that Rick does is endless. He's got it right, he's got it right.

You're gonna be the lead point on this? That's always the question to Rick when it comes to these random meetings and everything. All good. You asked me to remind you of something, Ariel, I wrote it down and then went and stuck it on Rick's desk because I'm like, he's the one who's gonna be set down. He's the straw that stirs the drink.

I'm just gonna be the Ariel. He's actually the straw that stirs the drink. He's the engine. I would say, I think Rick's greatest asset, 100% serious right now, is your organization skills. It's very rare for, like I feel like guys aren't known for their organization skills. You are incredibly organized. Yes, I am.

On top of it. And very humble. On top of it all the time. Probably the most humble. No, listen, I mean it's a- I am organized. It's a fantastic skill. If that's a brag, I mean. I am on top and very humble on top of it all the time probably the most humble no listen I mean, it's it's I am organized. It's a fan. That's a brag. I mean I am being a hundred percent serious as well What do you mean about his organ? You were like, let's be serious now. I am serious the entire time

He does so much that was more for Frank this yes No, no friend. He does an insane amount literally love this guy's thing. No, I was- Frank like- No, no, Frank, he does an insane amount. Literally love this guy. By the way, I wrote this comment so that you guys would do this. Mission accomplished. Listen, I'll take my compliment, you know? I can't believe this. Shut up, Pizza Carol.

Shut up, Pizza Carol. For those of you who are saying that he just yaps, fuck off. That's true. Oh, there we go, Frankie, I like that. Where is my Derrick Lewis toy, by the way? I was wondering the same thing, man. You really walked into that. What else? I don't think I've seen that thing

In year, so I remember it it was like this Ah, but I don't know I was looking around here someone probably stole Antoine writes I'm feeling myself today lads and then he sends us two dollars and it's evidence. Oh my god Oh, he's been in the chat man. He's been holding court and chat. Oh, yeah, I'm sure this is holding an AMA earlier It was kind of funny. Did he love it? Was it good? Like was it entertaining? He said he was in the middle of a meeting and his phone started blowing up.

I was just, he wrote me in Magilla, I don't get paid to write on X, so I was like, I might as well just respond to you here, on the show, isn't that better? I hope he's not offended, is he? No, I don't know. I probably have like eight voice notes waiting for me in whatsapp. Oh

I'm sure you got a lot of tibs ones. That's for sure. Yeah, no 100% what else lastly? This is an important one from Jake from Windy City rest in paradise Green his work at sure dog was one of the huge parts of my MMA fandom back then amen Andrew McGahn He linked and tagged me in a preview video that we did back in Winnipeg, UFC 161, I think it was. And I watched yesterday parts of it, and yeah, just hard to watch, and all the tributes, beautiful tributes. But you know what? I want to give Ant some credit, because he had a very, I thought, poignant tweet and an on-point tweet regarding the sentiments that were shared yesterday.

And I actually want to read it, as we call it today. This is how much I love Ant. Was just talking with a friend about Jordan Breen. I wasn't tight with Jordan, but I knew him well. Knew him well enough to know I liked him, and I always deeply respected his knowledge of MMA. My mate noted, while it is lovely to see all the tributes today,

it does nothing to help Jordan. He's not here to see it, he'll never know. None of us get out alive, we're all flies. All of us are going to drop. So maybe, if there's someone you admire, even from a distance, tell them, a DM, a reply, a comment. Just let them know because one day it'll be their turn to have 24 hours of beautiful tributes they will never see and then the world will move on.

Better they hear it while they're alive. There it is. And he's a thousand percent right. Well said. Not right about the wash stuff, but a thousand percent right here. And so yes, everyone watching, all, I don't know how many thousands of you, 1,831.

Tell one person today that you appreciate them, tell them that you respect them, tell them that you enjoy their presence, enjoy their work, enjoy their friendship, enjoy their comradery, appreciate, tell them that you respect them, tell them that you enjoy their presence, enjoy their work, enjoy their friendship, enjoy their camaraderie, appreciate, love them, it'll feel good. It'll make them feel good, it'll make you feel good. So a great lesson there after a pretty shitty Monday. All right, let's call it a day. Heart Out, 356, nailed it. Thank you so much, Frank. Of course. Also, love everyone here.

Love you. Love you despite, you know, despite all the jokes, despite all the ribbing, if you will. If you'd show up to a Arepas feast every now and then. Arepas? Why are you guys giving me such a hard time with the arepas? It's fun, because you get so... it's just fun to just poke the bee's nest a little bit. Is it? Until he gets stung. I get so what? I get so what? You get so...

Finish the thought. Unraveled? Do I really? Triggered? Triggered? I don't know. Between you and black bees? Yeah. You handled it well.

I should find that bobblehead yeah can I be honest I think I broke it okay you're not gonna blame one of us I was so surprised that you didn't know I think it I think it fell and I think it broke and I did feel bad about it but now I'm not sure if I still do the The look of love. Well, it was a great day. What about that Mark Kriegel? What a storyteller, huh? I wish I could get his thoughts on Mark Kriegel.

Wait, not Mark Kriegel, on Tom Thibodeau. Get his own thoughts on himself. Oh my dear. Jason Kidd. I'm just, people saying Jason Kidd now? Come on. Yeah, I'm down for J. Kidd. I'm just, people say Jason Kidd now? Come on. Yeah, I'm down for Jay Kidd. No.

Oh, Jay Wright. What about Jay Wright? Wow. That would take some money, but that's a higher right there. Man, I don't love the college. Bring in Jay, get Devo back, and now we're really rolling. Jay's got the look for the next time. Oh my God, he's got the suits, the hair, everything.

Anyway, thank you to Sean Merriman, thank you Mark Kriegel, thank you Derek Lewis, thanks to you, thanks to them. Back to Boss Aide Highplace, this is it. Peace out, my dear.