The Ariel Helwani Show - Dricus du Plessis! Plus, Paul Heyman, Keyshawn Davis, and Keith Jardine all in studio, On the Nose

Episode Date: August 6, 2025

Ariel Helwani kicks off the show by reacting to news of the five-year deal that will bring WWE's premium live events to ESPN (05:58).UFC star turned actor Keith Jardine joins Ariel in studio to reminisce about his career and discuss his latest film projects, including his major directorial debut "Kill Me Again" (13:50).Next, Ariel and the Boys in the Back answer your On The Nose questions, including more on WWE's massive deal with ESPN and the potential implications for UFC (58:37).UFC middleweight champion Dricus du Plessis previews his UFC 319 fight against Khamzat Chimaev, reacts to some of Khamzat's past comments, and surveils the crop of upcoming middleweight title challengers (1:28:11).Keyshawn Davis, speaking for the first time since his canceled fight in June, opens up about his weight miss, viral backstage altercation with Nahir Albright, and talks about his timeline for returning to the ring (2:02:55).Finally, WWE manager extraordinaire Paul Heyman steps into the studio to pull back the curtain on the wrestling business, discuss current storylines with Seth Rollins and Brock Lesnar, weigh in on John Cena's heel run, Netflix's "Unreal," the new ESPN deal, and more (2:58:08).

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Eriya, Hawaii Show. Back in your life on this Wednesday, August 6, 2000. And 25. Hello. I sure hope you're doing well. It's great to be here on an unbelievable. Tuesday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Golly. It has felt like one long day. It is a Wednesday. I just said that here in New York City. We have a lot to get into. It's an unbelievable lineup. It's an unbelievable time to

be alive. I have done something this morning that I have never done before. I've been talking to the people of the impulsive podcast hosted by Logan and his BFF Mike about being on their show. they asked me to come on their show I did their show this morning I usually have a rule where I don't like to do a show before my show for multiple reasons A, energy levels you want to preserve them

B it's tight there's a lot that goes on and in fact I think I entered the studio usually I get here at around 11, 1115, 1130 max 1140 I like to be here in the 11, 1115 range

I think I watch walked into the studio at 1258. So a stressful one, but we made it. We did the interview. I think it's coming out next week. D1 Glazer was addressed. Other things were addressed. Yeah, other things were addressed.

Do you remember yesterday? Was it yesterday on the program where we talked about me showing up wearing a D1 Glazer shirt? Yeah. That was yesterday on the program. I don't think it was on the program I think it was just back here Oh weird

Well some way somehow They came up with the same idea And we're wearing D1 Glazer shirts With my face on it Yeah That was worth all the stress Now I wish you were wearing a D1 Glazer shirt

And it would have just been supreme In fact they gave me one And I left it there Because I was in such a rush It says D1 Glazer with my face on it I'm ruining the surprise here But at the beginning of the thing They all reveal

including the freaking production team, including our guy, Pat, they're all wearing... Pat had one. They all had them. Oh, man, I love it. I kind of wish you had gotten one for all of us as well. Can you go back? Instead of forgetting one, I wish you had forgotten six.

And by the way, the printing was subpar. It was like paper printing. Look, man, you got to do it quick on the lot. What are you going to do? And, you know, was it a gotcha mode? Don't work. Don't worry. I held my own.

I turned the tables. I stood my ground. So it was a good chat. I enjoyed it. And it will be, it will be airing, I think, next week. They air on Tuesdays or something like that. They post, we do our things live here, okay? We do our things live around these parts.

And Wednesdays is a great day because not only do we answer your questions. Now, OTN will be a little bit shorter on this particular Wednesday because we have so much to get to with so many fantastic guests. Back end of the show, 4 p.m. The one and only, the Oracle, the wise man, the advocate, the smartest human being that I've ever come across in my entire life, one of the greatest characters in the history of pro wrestling, my friend and yours, Paul E. Dangerously, A.K.A. Paul Heyman will be joining us in studio, and this is a very, very, very special place for him to join us in studio. He has been on the show

before, twice before in studio. Other times remote. I did a thing with him, BT, another thing backstage. But as far as in studio, I believe this is the third time. I'm including the MMA hour era. But him being here today is very, very special and important. I will get that. There's so much to talk to him about Brock Lester, Seth Rollins, E. M. Punk, his career, everything going on in the world of combat, sports, media, and all things in between. Stay tuned for that. Prior to that, in his very first interview, since shit hit the fan in Norfolk, Virginia, Keishon Davis, the businessman, will join us in studio as well. He's going to be here to clear the air on missing weight prior to the Edwin de los Santos fight,

the incident, the melee, the fracas that happened in the locker room the next night with Nahar albright. a lot happened on that weekend and it wasn't great he showed up on an Instagram live five or so days ago even hinted at retirement we'll get the skinny from the one and only part of the pun.

Kishan Davis he'll join us at 3 o'clock at 2.30 the reigning, the defending UFC middleweight champion, the one and only the pride of South Africa Jerkis DuPlesi the man who will be defending his title in about

10 days time in Chicago, United Center, going up against the one and only Hamsat Shamaev. Drick is Duplessi going to join us as well. That's at 2.32 o'clock, we'll answer your questions. And in about seven or so minutes, the Dean of Mean, Keith Jardine, absolute legend, joining us in studio to talk about all the things going on in his life. He has now become prolific in the world of cinema. he has a new movie out entitled Kill Me Again. He wrote it, he directed it, he stars in it.

What a lineup this is. I'm so excited to be here on this lovely, lovely Wednesday. There is some breaking news, though, to get to at the very top of the program. Who would have thought? Who would have thought? The times they are a changing. I remember when I was at ESPN not that long ago, 18 to 21, where I would say we should cover more pro wrestling,

we should go to WrestleMania, we should go to the paper views back then. They were known as, now known as the PLEs. This morning, wake up to the news that WWE and ESPN have signed a new five-year deal for ESPN to be the exclusive home of all the WWE PLEs beginning in 2026 here in the United States.

You know if you're watching this overseas that you get the PLEs already on Netflix. PLE premium live event. You know by now that if you're living in Canada, in the UK, in Brazil, in Japan, wherever it may be, you get it already there. You get Raw, you get SmackDown, you get NXT, and you get the PLEs.

It's all there. But you also know, if you live here in the United States, that Raw is on Netflix, but SmackDown is on USA and NXT is on CW. And what I say? Yeah, SmackDown's on USA. And you know that the PLEs have been on Peacock for the last, I don't know what it's been, five, six years, right? Well, you knew that that deal was coming up.

We told you the UFC deal and the WWE deal here in America, the two big rights deals coming up. Well, the first shoe has dropped, and that's that WWE leaving Peacock, as far as PLEs are concerned. They're not leaving NBC Universal. They'll still be on Smackdown USA Fridays, but the PLEs begin. beginning in 2026, we'll be leaving Peacock and going to ESPN, okay? Peacock had been paying $180 million a year. ESPN paying $325 million reportedly according to multiple outlets like CNBC in the Wall Street Journal, 325 from 180 to 325.

Now, is it just going to be on ESPN linear? No. It's going to be on the new ESPN direct-to-consumer, also known as DTC platform. The flagship, some are calling it, that is coming out in two weeks' time. And so what is this thing? It's $29.99. If you have no cable access whatsoever, you could subscribe to this. Direct to consumer, meaning you can pay $2,000 in the United States, and you get every single ESPN entity, ESPN the mothership, ESPN2, ESPNU, all the different SEC, this, that, and the other. all the stuff that ESPN offers, right?

You'll also be able to get the NFL network, which they've now had to deal with. You'll have access to Red Zone. You'll have access to all the crazy stuff that they're doing with the NFL as well. You'll also get all these PLEs with your 2999. Part of that 2999

is your ESPN plus subscription. If you want to get rid of that and just go all in with that, the UFC pay-per-views are still an addition to that. So if you're an ESPN plus subscriber, at least as of right now, you still have to pay your $799.99 or whatever it is for the ESPN pay-per-views. Now, that could change come January 1st because as we know, that deal is coming to an end. But what this says to me is, first of all, incredible. WWE and ESPN actually in partnership, I remember way back in the day ESPN airing AWA in the 80s,

This might be the first time since that they have a major wrestling deal in North America. It's just for the PLEs. That's 10 a year. But there's two that are two nights, WrestleMania, SummerSlam. That's massive. Huge upgrade in price. And to me, it suggests that if anyone thought that the UFC was going to leave ESPN, I feel like this is another sign that they're going to figure this out in some way, shape, or form.

Is it going to be divided? Is it going to be a little bit here with ESPN and a little bit here with Netflix? We still don't know. But it shows that the relationship is extremely strong. Oh, by the way, ESPN no longer airing top rank. Is Zupa Boxing going to potentially go there? There's been some talk also of Paramount Plus.

Let's see. But the relationship couldn't be stronger. And what have I said time and again? And I know that I come from a place of friendship and bias. The greatest decision that WWE has made in the last, five or so years was hiring Nick Con. Nick Con had all the relationships in the sports media business, incredible relationship with ESPN and Jimmy Petaro, the president in particular. And now you see another example of that. Their rights deal to Netflix, gigantic. They're rights deals with

NBC Universal and CW, gigantic. And now this is just another sign. Do they get this without him? I don't know. Honestly, I don't know. He's a massive part of it and his influence. I said it. In my opinion, he's the most important person at TKO. Now, Mark Shapiro, who is the, I believe, up the top of my head, the COO of TKO, or he might be the president of TKO. Very high. Ari Emanuel, Mark Shapiro, Dana, Nick, you know the power players. Very important as well. He used to be in a major position at ESPN as well. He used to be in a major position back in the 05s, 06, 07s, 04s that time period. So I'm sure the relationship helps. But I know for a fact that Nick has an incredible relationship with the brass there and this makes all the sense of the world. And I don't know if they

get it done without him. And so I think he deserves a lot of credit for that. If anyone is happy about this, I think that's the direction of which the credit should go. Now, this is very interesting as far as we wait and see what happens with the UFC and this is all going to come into play come 2026 but who would have thought who would have thought in the year 2026 ESPN and WWE together

business relationship airing the PLEs you won't have to pay extra for them you'll have to be a subscriber to the DTC what's a little bit unclear to me and I think I know the answer to this is if you're an ESPN plus subscriber only and I think they're going to change

the name to that to ESPN Select and not the DTC subscriber, the 299 guy, meaning myself, if you're an ESPN plus subscriber but you still have DirecTV, do you get the PLEs as part of ESPN Plus but not at an extra charge? I think the answer to that is yes.

I think the answer to that is yes. As of right now, the answer to that is no as far as UFC paper views are concerned, but as far as the actual PLEs from WWE, the 12 total 10 plus the two night shows, I think it's just a part of the plus subscription, which last I checked was around 1199. So fascinating times in the world of sports media,

in the world of sports rights here in the United States, and we wait and see what will come of the UFC rights. Okay, just give me a second here, friends. A lot more that we can discuss as far as this is concerned, a lot more that we can say, and perhaps there'll be a question or two coming up. on the nose. Again, back into the show, Paul Heyman,

prior to that, Kishon Davis, prior to that, Jerkis duplasi, then I'll answer some of your questions on the nose. But for now, it's a great pleasure and honor to say hello to one of the legends

of the game, a man who I have not talked to in quite some time, but I'm so excited to say hello to. There he is. The Dean of Meen. Keith Jardine. Thank you. are you? Thank you so much for coming in. Holy crap. A real blast from the past. It's been a long time. I'm a blast from a past now, huh? Well, at least as far as the day to day, certainly not as far as

what you're doing. You're in a much, much better place. No, I love it, man. Back then, like, I love what you've done, man, how you come up to here and all that. Like, I remember you showing up to every event doing the thing. Just, just, man, it must have been so tough for you, man, spending all your money, going all these UFC events, to become this UFC reporter. Yes, but here we are and here you are doing your thing so I was looking obviously your last flight was in 2012 but it's right yeah but it's not like you just

went quietly into the night you have now become a real major player in the world of cinema in Hollywood are you comfortable with the mic you can move it by the way I got it I got it brother and you've got this new film coming out called Kill Me Again you wrote it

directed it and are in it there's the poster and tonight it's playing at Tribeca right? Yep Tribeca Tribe Beck. We have some tickets left. If you guys are in New York, just hit me up on the DMs. And I think we have like 10 or 15. Oh, now you went too low. Oh, I'm all right. Yeah, okay. Okay, so how long have you been working on this? On this project, I've been working since August of 2023. I was right during the writer's strike. I have a script that has a lot of heat on it. Somebody wanted to get it done, a big studio, but who's going to direct it, not me, right? So what can I do? What can I find something I can do in a smaller budget, something contained, and all that, so I come up with this time loop idea from a, like a Groundhog Day from the serial killer's perspective.

Yes, I've heard you, like, that's your elevator pitch, right? That's it, yeah. It's Bill Murray and Groundhog Day, but... Bill Murray's a killer. Bill Murray's a killer. Yeah, yeah. And when did you come up with this idea? I said on August, I was, like, I was,

that writer strike was going, no one's working all that, and there's a lot of heaping time on other scripts, but I need to get something that I can do so that I can do all my own stuff, and I'm not hiring another director to do my movies and all that. Had you ever directed prior to this? I did a little short on the El Paso 1155 was my first short. Okay Did really well won a lot of awards for time Academy Qualifier and festivals and stuff like that so But it's still just a short. It's not a feature right and what about writing? I've been writing since Like 2015 all that okay. Yeah, yeah I got yeah was this always the the plan for you post-fighting? No, nope. I always wanted to act

I always love movies movies like escape isn't for me I love love love movies and I'm acting for a while and I'm starting to get I'm actually doing really good as an actor I'm getting good stuff but I'm getting the same stuff right nothing like what's that racist henchman kind of one-dimensional kind of guy right right right I want to do something more complex you know and casting directors aren't going to see through it through a lot so I need to write it and create it myself wow so for a lot of reasons I just sat down and started to write like I'm a horrible writer as far as the technique of writing like in school that wasn't great I was more of a math guy I wasn't really great at writing I can barely write a business email at that time right but I know dialogue I studied the heck out of acting and I know dialogue and I know what I want to see in a movie so it was just like it's really cool to sit down in front of a blank canvas and like all right what movie do I want to watch and like what characters do I want to create and then create a world from their perspective

man that's that's the biggest rush wow yeah and and so like Me writing an article or me writing a story is not the same as writing a script. There's a whole form. It's like it's a different universe, right? Yeah, yeah. You go to school for that? Do you figure it out? Does someone teach you?

No, no, I put my hours in. My first script I wrote, I got to the end of it. It wasn't really good. But what I did do is I got to the end. And then after I was finished, I got a book. And I started studying, I started reading other screenplays. And I'm like, okay, well, this is where this is. And this is why this is.

And this has to be this way. I had to learn the proper Hollywood format. And then you got to know it before you can break away from it. Like I don't worry about it too much now, but you have to know it first. So yeah, I did put my time in and study that. First time that you started to think like, hey, this could be a career for me post-fighting. When did that come to play? Like when you're in the UFC and stuff, are you thinking about this at this point?

Yeah, at the end of my career, I started thinking about acting because when I fought Chuck, that's how I got my sad card. Someone asked me to be in their movie. Post-chuck? yeah like three days after I fought him really what happens that's UFC 76 that was your big thing I remember when that fight was announced you were in the main event against them and and there was some kind of blowback because you know there weren't as many shows yeah if you recall back then and people are like this is in a title fight should this be a pay-per-view main event Chuck's going to roll through

this guy and you shocked everyone and made it into a thing like holy shit you should have been watching because something spectacular happened right yeah yeah you remember all this I remember all that Yeah, people were doubting you. And it was also, it wasn't just me. It was like, Forrest was fighting Shogun and all that. Yes, this was like the coming out for the tough air, right? Like with tough guys, didn't have a lot of respect. Yes, yes, you were the reality show guy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That pissed you off? Yeah, yeah, a little bit, yeah. Of course. And so you beat him, and someone reaches out to you after that to give you a second? I'm in a small town in New Mexico to see my doctor, Bernalio, New Mexico, and I was in a cafe after I went and saw him. And there's a couple, a guy coming up to me super bashful,

just kind of kicking around in the ground. Hey, you're Keith Jardine, right? Yeah, I saw your fight. A great fight on. Hey, we're doing this movie in Albuquerque, and we're casting it right now. Would you, he's super nervous? Would you mind come in reading for something for us?

Wow. And they're like, yeah, yeah, I'd love to do that, man. So prior to that, there were no talks of you doing anything in the world of movies. No, no. Wow. And then, and the guy happened to be, they're the writer-directors of the Crank franchise,

and they were doing Gamer with Jerry Butler and Albuquerque. Okay. And they end up riding me a part in that. Wow. So you go there and you had never tried out for anything, you had never kept, right? No, no. Did you even do anything in like high school, like theater? No, no, no.

Wow. And was it just because he was a fan? Yep, exactly that. Okay. And who was this guy? Brian Taylor and Mark Devildeen. Again, they're the crank franchise writer directors. Oh, okay, okay, okay.

He'll Jason Statham. Yep, yeah, yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, yeah. And so you go there and you nail it. Oh, yeah, I did good. They printed me out some stuff and I read it and they liked it, and they created a role for me.

And then, then I got some, after that I got some, you know, crummy MMA movies I did. Yeah, weren't really good. Directed DVD. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My first lines really were, I get to have lines on. My first real lines were I ever did, wasn't practicing whatever was actually on set in front of a camera talking to another person. And it's like, it's so weird, so surreal. Like, I haven't thought about this for a while, but it's like, you hear yourself talking to a guy.

Because I'm not a good actor, right? Sure, sure. Like I'm trying to be like Clint Eastwood or something. I'm talking to the guy, right? Yeah, but then fighting ends, you know, and probably the low point of my life. You know, how long is this money going to last me? It didn't end the way I wanted it to end.

And I'm spending all my money going to L.A. for all these auditions, and it's not quite working out. And then, yeah, the banking account's going down, and you really, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? And then some stunt rules came along. And then finally, I got a really big rule that, separated but back to that what happened though is so in Hollywood you're

competing with some these motherfuckers are like they went to college for for film you know theater actors actress since they're kidding you're competing these with these guys for roles nobody cares that you're a UFC fighter I mean that that goes really quick right if you're gonna be in a character and sell a character they don't care that it's key Jardine trying to be a plumber or something like they want to see this interesting plumber that has this past and all that, right? So I had to learn how to do all that.

So I spent all my thousands of hours studying acting, acting classes, acting lessons and all that, trying to learn the art, giving the artists do and all that. And then once I started doing that, I got a Paul Thomas Anderson film called Inherent Vice with Lockheek Phoenix and had nothing to do with me being a fighter or anything like that. That was just, it was a really hard rule to get

and I got that role and so from then on it, I was able to say key charting the actor and not the fighter trying to be in it. What year was that? Her advice is probably, I'm going to guess, around 12, 13, 14, I don't know. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So now you start to feel like you're getting respect and people aren't viewing you as just that dude.

By the way, when you say really hard role to get, what does that mean? Like you say that, and I'm sure people in the industry understand that, but what makes it so hard to get? Paul Thomas Anderson is really, he's like there, you know, he's there will be blood, he's boogie nights. He's like one of the best writer-directors there. He's an artist, a true artist. and he's really specific about the people he wants. And I was in the gym working out in Albuquerque, and my manager calls me and say,

hey, they're having a hard time casting this role. It already went through like twice and they haven't been able to cast it. Would you be able to fly to L.A.? The thing's at three, if you can make it, it's like 11 o'clock or whatever, and I look at the phone, and then Southwestern, yeah, I can be there.

So I get off the phone, no lines or anything, so I get off the plane and rent a car and make it to this place just in time, fighting traffic and all that and then there you go here's your lines and you're going to read with cassandra yeah yeah and uh how many how many times you have to go through this is it just one and done that one was one and done um they did it and um i managed to get through it uh through a couple different things and um and i'm working on another stunt job actually and uh and they just they

hired me and it's just a paul i remember what she said i'll never forget it paul said and you know there's just something in his eyes like I needed to have him there's something in his eyes when he did the scene and wow and that was it that's it what a feeling yeah that must be yeah more nervous doing that or in a fight oh more nervous doing that so when you start doing auditions um I've always had this kind of social anxiety anyways right especially in fighting I didn't have much I wasn't had to develop my personality that much right and whatever self-doubt or fear you have going into a fight like after you get punished here in a fight it doesn't matter right you can hide whatever you get knocked down get up and win it doesn't matter right but but you walk into a room

it's really similar to walking into a fight uh like in a locker room for a fight you got all these people all these professionals sitting around the room reading their lines yeah these are professional you might even recognize some of them they're reading for the same role you are and and they're studying getting ready getting ready just like preparing for a fight right and and um now i got to compete with these guys that they're trying to pay their rent too you know and and and and So you walk in a room. I'm on my first one. I'm walking a room. I didn't know what to do. Like I just stood by the door and Somebody passed me and went and signed in like okay, so I need to go sign in. And then I just do what everybody else are doing. And then you go into a room and you're on deck. They say you're on deck. All right, cool. And then I'll try to memorize the stuff one last time and then go in the room. Now there's a there's a reader and a camera operator, right? And that's it. And it's like, go. And they start telling you the lines. You got to spit back the lines. And if you have an ounce of fear or an ounce of anything,

you're not hired because because their job is to bring good actors to the director. If they recommend this guy, the guy had a really great recommend this guy. And I dropped the ball on set. That goes back on them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So their job is to say no a lot of times.

Yeah. So anyway, so it's- It sounds stressful, you just reciting all of it, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I'd learn a lot about self-confidence and self-doubt and performance and all that. Things I didn't quite work out during fighting. I had to work out during this venture.

And do you feel like you have? Oh, absolutely. Really? Yeah, if you look at my fighting career, um, it's an interesting thing, like I've had supreme, supreme confidence. Like I've trained with everybody around the world. I go to Montreal, train with George,

I go to Denver, train with all those guys there. I've trained with champs, I fought champs, I beat champs. Supreme confidence. When I'm standing in the ring and I'm looking at a monster like, Quentin Jackson or Chuck Liddell or something like that. And everyone's saying, like you said,

the Chuck Lell fight, like I don't belong in that ring. Fuck you, I don't belong in the ring. I'm gonna show you, right? And that's when I performed the best. Now you put me in a ring against some guy that I never heard of or whatever and like, oh, you should dust up this guy, easy fight for you. Like we'll do this and we'll do that.

Then whatever performance anxiety, like my focus wasn't off, whatever, I just kind of do it. So like I won when I was supposed to lose and I lost when I was supposed to win. But so I had to work all this. that out for sure and so so when you go into these roles or try to audition for these roles when you feel like you're maybe not the the natural choice or you're the fighter who's trying out and

and maybe getting a little bit too ambitious but that's when you feel like you have a better audition when it's like when it's a serial killer role like that's like you know fighting some sort of schlub but when it's a role like you playing someone who's outside of the the sort of type cast that people might have to do that's when you think you rise to the occasion there's a work that way as well that's more in filmmaking it and acting i just had to get to be like you know what i'm a goddamn good actor yeah and i'm gonna go do this thing fucking take it or leave it i'm not even gonna do the lines you wrote right i'm not do the lines that way i want to do it oh yeah how long did it take for that to happen it took a while a lot of repetitions man a lot of repetitions

yeah but but that's the attitude you got to act or take it or leave it this is great if you notice it good not i'm gonna go do another one you go to acting school i've done i've done acting lessons from little crummy little a bunch of actors getting together with a coach to like proper ones in LA with with theater coaches okay and I've had a good coach and all that you need to do that anybody you know see I tell them like when they didn't want to become an actor I tell him like you got to go to act you got to be able to risk being stupid in front of a bunch of people you got to get over the ego of like oh Keith Charting was an acting class and he was

awful he did this thing couldn't remember his lines or whatever he just got to risk that and be vulnerable and do that thing to really be vulnerable on set because if you're a good actor you're completely vulnerable like I'm just throwing it out like and I don't care about how I look I don't care about whatever like I'm just going to look like an idiot and depend on the director to reel me in and put me where he wants me well in this case you are the director yeah so now that now you get into this now there's that where um making your own movie the way I did outside the system is like every step of the way is like no this script is too ambitious you can't do it on this many days um no you can't do this no he can't do

this and it was like oh yeah watch me i'm gonna do it wow yeah yeah yeah and so how long did it take to film this we do this in 12 nights 12 nights 12 nights 12 nights from 5 p.m. to 5 a.m. mostly and how long is the film it's not a short right no it's 100 and some minutes okay and and where did you film it in albuquerque and and your budget where did the where did the money come from I rose it myself and that's another thing I had to learn because it's not my personality to come to people with my hat out right yeah and so i did this completely outside the system and i got independent financiers and because i had my successful short and i had a track record yeah and i was able to come again and it's not such a

risky thing and like it's more like meeting people and like um creating like a lot of heat between broken hair productions is what it is and and and i got all these scripts i got actors attached to this whatever we're doing big stuff and like do you want to be a part of this do you want to jump on the train of this thing we're doing and that that's the way you do but but it's hard going to people with your hand out and i didn't get money talk about stress friend um i didn't like i'm i remember i didn't get everything done until like days before we started shooting wow i never talking to one of my producers is like hey uh because it almost slipped out i don't let anybody know that we don't have the money right because all these people are are working so hard to make this thing

make your dream happen they're working hard like emails change every day calls every day all this stuff everybody working hard on on their profession and they better get paid i'm gonna make sure they get paid but god damn i can't i can't have any seed of doubt in there and then he put he put his hand on my back and like you know don't worry man we got it yeah godly yeah so talk about talk about that stress man making a movie wow uh would you like to make more absolutely yeah i got i got two in the pipeline right now oh gosh yeah yeah it's This is incredible. Now, this, so the movie that you're promoting now, Kill Me Again, Trebekat tonight.

Is this a full theatrical release? How does this work? Yeah, I get a limited theatrical release on the 8th. Okay. And then we're going to be wherever you were at Apple, Amazon, all that. It's going to be available there too. On that same day? On the same day.

Okay. So this is, and how does that work in terms of getting it on Apple and all those guys? And why do you do it at the same time? Meaning like limited theatrical and Apple Amazon. Exactly. Just because we're limited theatrical. Oh, okay. We're in like, I don't know, like 10, 15 major cities or something like that.

Okay, is there a studio behind it? Yeah, no, a distributor. A distributor, okay. You had to learn that game too, right? Yeah, man. I made a, you make a movie, you make a script. Anybody, not anybody, it's hard to write a script. It's harder to get somebody to read your script.

It's hard to make a movie, but it's really hard to get somebody to watch a movie. Yeah. But there's a lot of people who got movies out there, right? You go to film festivals. There's so many films at every film festival. I don't want to go that route. I don't have time. Like, I want this thing now.

So I just started to reach down to distributors myself. And that's where everything goes full circle with me. Cause it's interesting when you write a cold email to somebody like key charting former UFC star. And now I'm hedging on that completely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I got this film, whatever. And then even so, like they'll pay attention

because of UFC and all that, but then when they watch it, it has to rock their world. So in some ways you wanna move away from the UFC star label and in some ways you're leaning on it. I did at the beginning. I moved away from it. hard as I could I lost some roles because of that and in some act you got to have a casting director that really go to bat for you okay like I did a what's a shot call it a lot

of people talk about shot call that was a good little role for me I remember that the casting director put me up and it was a great read and all that and she's talking to the director about it and he's all yeah man but this is a real role we need a real actor for that was a great read but we need a real actor right and yeah because the UFC's yeah no no no look he's done this and he's done this and he's done this and showed them other clips of things I did and get a road so I really had to move away from that to be and then now it's like now I'm kind of going back to that like trying to try

to get yeah yeah you mentioned before um 2012 your career comes to an end it's not quite how you envision and you were in a real dark place yeah so so so so what do you mean by that well um in my mind my last fight was with um asashi that was a real fight okay I fought that fight in eight days notice it was a 205 and um um I happened to be a draw draw because I got lucky and got a penalty point but it was a good fight it was a real fight is a key jardine fight yeah um I had this crazy dumb stupid idea to drop down to 185 and do two fights to do a fight and I thought I fought everybody at 205 and I thought it'd be like

interesting to the fans whatever I'm fighting different people and all that and but I got old really quick losing that weight it was really hard man um really hard I didn't fight those two fights it just wasn't me like I couldn't my first time I lost weight I didn't even go to the bathroom since i cut weight to when i got fight i lost so much water i never put it back properly you know um then the brain doesn't react right i think i think it was rock hold i never fought that fight and then i fought another fight and then there's just like just kind of walked away i didn't retire i just kind of walked away just like i just felt awful and the thing is um you know like you said you train all over the world and and in and i've been beaten champions i

knew i was i had the skill to be a champion and that was always my dream to be a champion but um It never happened. And now you're in your late 30s and you're walking away from this thing. And it's like you're a failure. You can't even, I couldn't even watch the UFC for a while. And I'm just trying to make this new career and watching the big account go down, like I said,

and all that. And I'm trying to reinvent myself into this thing. And it's just like years of that until time goes by. And then things change. And then all of a sudden I'm like, wow. Oh, no, I did some good stuff. I'm proud of that fight. Like, Quentin Jackson, I did his podcast a while ago,

and it was a great honor. It was like, that was, I lost that fight. But everyone asked, what my favorite fight is? That's one of my favorite fights. Really? Because it was a good, fun fight, man, right? It was a great fight, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it took me a while to come back

and to be able to accept, no, I did, even though I didn't, I didn't fulfill my potential and all that, I did, I did a thing that few people could do. How long did that take? You said 12, probably like five years. five years yeah yeah wow five years you don't watch the sport not much just my friends fighting and even though i watched my friends fighting it was just because i'm watching a friend it's right because it was oh i got to watch this fight it almost like did it

like make you feel shitty like put you in a bad mood just watching the whole thing yeah that was another life yeah yeah wanted nothing to do with it 100% i wanted to move on and do something else did you train at all yeah i trained um actually i got really good i got really really good. People were actually asking me to come back because I got so good. What I did is I went to a boxing coach, Danny Romero. A lot of, if you're in no boxing, him and his top of year awards and all that. He was a champion. I went to train with him and just whatever. I want to learn how to really box. I never really, I knew how to kickbox and I know, but I wouldn't learn how to box like a boxer. And boy, that was tough, man. Like he just destroyed, oh, this

m-o-may guy's gonna come to me like he just destroyed me but i i i stayed kept it and then they're not going and i start going to jackson's again and i'd go in the ring with with stars and i would just dust them up um because i learned how to probably i learned how to throw a jab yeah i learned how to do all these things and uh people are saying keith you you should think about coming back even though like i told you not to fight anymore did you did you consider it i did a little bit it was always the thing like if for desperation if i have to like maybe i will i wanted to to I really wanted to but I'm also pivoting to this other thing and I need to devote all my energy into this other thing and this other thing is a hard thing

the easy thing is to do a fight and get a paycheck so so I decided to do the hard thing not the easy thing okay did you did you keep training though yeah kept training there then and um trainings dropped off recently though like like I hit the bag and I try and stay capable you know but I wish I I wish I I want to train very much man I would love that nothing more that I would love more than anything to step in a ring and I would spar I would spar every day if I could that's just so much fun that leg kicks hitting people just letting it go getting in that primal brain and all that but you

know what like I'm going to Morocco now for for about two months to finish up terminal this season two like I don't have time you know what I mean what a life man yeah yeah you feel you feel like now people just view strictly as keep your enough time has passed are you just keep Jardine the actor oh oh by the way in this previous life or is it still sort of there it's both man i love it i was in the hallway right now and a guy took a picture with me hey um every time you're on inherent vice with me and my wife uh we always watch your part is my favorite part oh can i get a picture and all that i don't even know if you knew i was a fighter or not oh wow that's amazing yeah yeah i thought you were

just about to say and oh by the way i watched you the uc but then a lot of the uc hardcore fans and all that right and i love that now i've always loved it but now it's like really special in this movie, there's a few, you know, fighting friends of yours, right? Michelle Watterson, Tate Fletcher. Maurice Green. Maurice Green. And Cowboys in it. Cowboys, Serroney.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so is that you trying to help out your friends or? I'm just trying to create a family. First of all, I wouldn't have them in there at all if they couldn't do it. Yeah. Michelle Watterson's amazing. I think she has a future. Really?

She's naturally a great actor. Wow. Yeah, I think she has a really good future there. So it's Maurice. You know Maurice? Of course, yeah. Marisa. So I want Maurice, I want all these guys in everyone movies,

but Maurice, like, I want him in every one of my movies. He's a super interesting guy, man. When he's on the screen, you just pay attention to him. I have him playing a cop in my movie. Like, who would imagine him as a cop, right, right, right. He's amazing. He pulls it off. He's great, dude.

Yeah, man, and it's just like, I'm trying to, uh, Tate Fletcher. I've collaborated with Tate someone. She's part of Broken Ear Productions with me. Like, he's a fried cook, a Russian fried cook, for God's sakes. Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what's Saroni?

A cop. Okay. He remembers for cops. He's popped up in a few films recently as well. Yeah, yeah. He's doing his own stuff too. He's putting his own little Western series together. How's he doing it?

How's he doing, in your opinion? He's doing great, man. Yeah? He's doing great. He's got a lot of balls to do this. He's just filming it on his own little bit, a little bit. He's putting this little Western series with him and Michelle Waterson and a bunch of actors just doing out as his ranch. And he's just putting it together when he can.

It's all his money and all his thing. And he just has his dream, too. to do what I'm doing and just make his own content It's really great to do it that way That's what the world is right now The way the studios are happening And to do it without having to answer to studios

And having to like Oh this actor has oh we got to change this dialogue Like no you're in complete control man You're a filmmaker that that's everything to me And so you mentioned the broken year productions Yeah that's your production company With Tate? Yeah Just the two of you?

Yeah, yeah my producer Darren White And when did you start that? When I did the short. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, like, this is, this is your life now. Do you also have the coffee business, though? Yeah, me, and Tate have Caveman Coffee, and that's got new life in it.

We got a great partner, and that just got relaunched, so everything's happening at the same time. Is that, like, kind of like the first thing post-fighting for you, the Caveman coffee? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why do you say it like that? It's a lot of work trying to do your own business, man. Yeah. We made a lot of mistakes in that. How so?

Just trying to grow too big, too fast, too many products, all that. You got inventory cell, but we got COVID wiped us out. We have pallets and pallets and pallets. We just relaunch this new tea. We're doing supply-side wet, and that's the first thing that gets canceled. We have so many skews ready to go, and we can't do supply-side west, so we have to go through Amazon. So we go through Amazon, we got all these pallets of stuff sitting there, and they never get uploaded to Amelon. They're sitting in their warehouse until they expire.

Completely ruined us, man, out of stock, out of that. So that's why we had to regroup and some guy came in. And Ryan Drexler came in and just saved us recently and believed in us, believed it in the brand. And we're going to relaunch and get this thing going. Okay, amazing. Yeah. When you were coming up, you know,

this is a lot more apparent in boxing as opposed to MMA, but just because MMA is so young, you would see fighters who, unfortunately, you know, they would stick around too long, they would have nothing post-fighting. You have obviously set yourself up and it didn't happen overnight. Like you took a really tough path, creative,

you're trying to make a whole new name for yourself in a whole new world. But were you ever looking at those guys and saying, I don't want to be that? I need to start thinking, I need to be prepared, I need to have a plan post-fighting. Absolutely, my dream always was right away, like was to dream, my dream was to dream,

like never let your memories become larger than your dreams, right? And I never wanted to be the guy like, oh, back in two, up 2007 when I fought Chuck and when I shut down that one when I quieted the whole crowd and everybody started cheering for me at the end of the fight that was the peak of my life that was a peak of my career I didn't want to be that guy was looking back to 2007 and so like I still dream like a teammate teenager like my dream right now is for it's a film by Keith Jardine that's interesting I don't even care what

it is it's a Keith Jardine film I want to see that and so so that's it man I just never wanted to be stuck in the past um that's really huge for me would you see other guys like that yeah yeah i got a whole screenplay about that's the screen one of the screenplay that has a lot of heat behind it right now it's an m-ma based screenplay that um studio covered and they want to do it and all that but um it's more of a taxi driver's script it's based in the mama world but it's about that like you're you're late 30s early 40s if you're gonna be good at mMA if you're gonna be fighting in the ufc you've got to be completely single-minded you gotta spend your whole life at this one

endeavor you can't do anything else if you are if you got one foot into something else that like you're not gonna be successful so now you're you're you're your years you're 40 years old and and you didn't make a lot of money people know you you walk in the mall people knows who you are but you don't have any money you don't have any skills where you're gonna go to college now at 40 you learn something else you probably what's your family situation like and it's really tough to reinvent yourself with that is we're gonna be a coach that's great if you want to be a coach but how many coaches can you have you know

Right, right. So, yeah, it's a really interesting world because we're not like NFL where you make so much money and then you invest it, right, and you live off of that and you develop products and all that, you know. When you look at some of your contemporaries from that era, and maybe some of them aren't doing as well,

100%. How does that make you feel? Yeah, my scripts, a lot of guys compounded and all that. I look at Stefan Bonner's a great one. What a great human. Yeah. And what happened to him, it isn't career. doing like backyard wrestling for money you see a lot of guys like that and like I

would love to I want to get to a point where I would love to be able to help out and be strong enough where I can reach out to guys like that and help them forward into the next life like I said it's not something that we were very used to in MMA as opposed to boxing because the sport was still so young but now we're starting to see the stars of essentially your era when the sport exploded who were household names to a degree and and cable TV stars, pay-per-view stars, and you're starting to see them get older and have health issues and all that stuff. And it's hard to see because these were superheroes. Yeah. Yeah. And you just got to learn how to, again, you've got to set goals and you've got to learn how to put whatever

work, whatever work you did in MMA, you've got to find another path, right? Brian Stan's done a great job. There's a lot of guys who done a great job. I was on Matt Serra's podcast last night. It's cool to see what he's doing. Yeah. But there's all the guys we don't know about, you know? Sure. I could say some names. Yeah. Of course, of course. when you're you're still part of SAG oh yeah so SAG is a is an actor's union essentially does there need to be a fighter's union you've now you've now experienced the benefits of everything that comes with being a part of a union yeah yeah does there need to be a pension does there need to be something to help you guys post fighting yeah that's a weird thing i i don't

really know on that like i think so i think it makes sense because it's a professional sport but you also can go to different um um you can fight at one FC you can fight at one FC you can at UFC, but I don't really know the politics behind that, but it seems, it makes a lot of sense that there's a union. I don't really know the politics of that. Yeah. You know, I think we kind of saw something like this with this antitrust lawsuit, with the settlement. You would have fallen into that, right? Because it was 2010 to 2017. Yeah, I think so. You take the money? No. Why not? Like I said, I separated myself completely from that. Wow. Did they reach out to you? Um, no, nobody's reached out to me.

Really? Yeah, yeah. Your last fight in the UFC was 2010, right? I don't even know. You don't even know? Yeah. The last fight in the UFC? Well, I did, I did Zepha with, um, uh, you were a part of them because of strike force.

Strike force. But I don't know if that, uh, 2010, yeah, June of 2010. And so it's, it's, it's 2010 to 2017 as far as, like, the period. And, um, the reason I bring it up, um, and I guess you have no, you don't, you don't care about whatever money you were maybe supposed to be owed to, even though it probably is a minimal amount because you were at the very beginning of it. They broke it up based on how many times you fought. So there's like a sort of like a hierarchy system.

And so that's what I was thinking of when I was thinking of like this pension. Like if you fought 25 times with the UFC, maybe you get X amount. If you fought five times with the UFC, you get X amount. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I just, I try, I'm just trying to make my own way right now. Yeah, I get it. I'm sure some people need that and the money's great.

And if somebody sends me a check, I'm not saying I'm not going to cash it. You know what I mean? But I'm not worried about that. Like, I'm just, I wouldn't be where I am today if it wasn't for the UFC. With whatever happened right now, like, like the sport, the way it's grown up and all that. Like, I'm just super proud. I'm super proud of what I've done. I'm super proud to be here.

And I just know that like some, from a small town in Oregon, some guy, now I'm an actor. making my own movies and all that and it was all because of UFC helped me get there you know even though I said I had to separate from it but but it's because of that that I got my sad card that the people paid interest gave me interest right away so yeah yeah do you follow the sport I do a bit on a lot more now super interesting like I love that I love the sluggers I love the old fight old style fighters I love the max holloways guys like that guys that the Russian guys have a lot of that too like just they have that grit in them I was gonna ask like who

who would you really like and who are guys that you would say like oh it would have been maybe fun to be matched up against them wow um well the light heavyweight division is interesting right now i always think about that too because people are more strikers now like yeah when i left um everybody was like these wrestler sluggers i didn't necessarily match up well with that i matched well with guys that one you versus perera yeah that would have been a strike in light that would have been a dream yes yeah yeah yeah uh you still go do you ever go to jackson wing um that's been a while uh john um i train with john um i go to nfp the same uh strength gym that john does john jones does and and last time i trained um he made

me go do some rounds for him when he was coming for a fight yeah how was that it was crazy awesome i was i was actually really nervous but yeah i'm not going to say no so i went in and stepped in the ring and um it was beautiful man like like things don't go away right um we had an amazing amazing round and there Brendan Gibson was there like wow that was amazing dude and it was just art you know but then I went to spar with some other heavyweights and and it's like they weren't very good it's where some people aren't very good yeah yeah yeah getting hit with that haymaker well I don't need to be doing this now like I said I would spar every day but it'd be so much fun just to go mix it up and and play those games and all that but you start and you start talking about

head trauma and all that and that that's what I would love to reach out to fighters with them I did Ibegain and all that and that changed my life you did what I have a gain what's that it's a psychedelic um that that's really taken off right now it's really huge in the operator navy seal community and all that people with head trauma PTSD and so what is it a um it's no it's yeah it's a it's a root that comes out of Africa okay um um and how do you get it well you got to go to Tijuana to get it Okay. But it's not legal in America, but it's really, really good.

You drink it? Some drink it, some take a pill, but what it does is, it sounds like magic stuff, but they did a Stanford study the same place I went, and it really does reconnect neurons in the brain. Wow. They show before and after the brain is a lasting thing. And so you take it, like, let's say you take it, how long does it take for it to hit you?

That's an experience, man. It's not like a tour like you do in ayahuasca or something for fun and all that. Like it kicks your ass. Really? I was on the floor for about 20 hours. Throwing up? Yeah, heaving and going through the whole experience and you can't go to the bathroom. They have to kind of carry you to the bathroom and all that. Why do you want to put yourself through that? Because the effects are that great. You don't want to. It's good. But, you know, I finished that in July.

And I came out and I started making my movie in August. And everything just started falling in line for me. Wow. How often have you done this? I can't wait to go back and do it again. Ambio is a place I went. And I want to create a I talked about creating something for fighters I would love to create something where to pay for fighters that that that like me that can go and do that because I got helped out yeah my buddy Tate Fletcher he had a really bad brain injury really bad he can't leave the house kind of brain injury got it doing stunts he got ratcheted into a wall oh wow and and and it got really dark

suicidal depressed and all the head trauma from fighting everything everything's compounding right now he tried everything around the world he spent hundreds of thousand dollars on therapies nothing's lasting a Navy SEAL buddy of his said I didn't know this but he was in a really dark place again and Navy SEAL buddy said hey we need to go I need to take you to Ambio we need to go to Ambio and do this Ibegain so he went and he did it and he made it through it and I saw him like days afterwards and I saw the light the life in his eyes was like I never seen wow and it's just a different guy and and he's all Keith you need to go do this because he knows my experiences like you know with

brain fog afternoon fatigue all the fighting stuff you know like I get migraines every time I fly from head trauma and that kind of stuff and and you need to go do this Keith and like yeah sure sure I'll do it I looked up and see how much it was and I'm not in business maybe when I saw my script I'll do it right no no Keith you keep you time have you signed up you have you signed up no yeah I will I will and then finally he realized it was because of money you don't know you dummy I paid for you to go you need to go do this thing wow and so I went and did it and it changed my life wow how many times have you done it done it once that's all you

it's all you need to do is do it once but but um for a lot of reasons i want to go back and do it again and be more receptive to the whole situation because i fought that fucking thing the whole way oh my gosh yeah like you is it because you're feeling stuff or is it because you know that it will like open your brain up to yeah i want to open my brain up more because with what with iba gain no matter what happens um people sleep through the whole situation and they still wake up changed It might be a week later, but like people with serious, you hear the stories and it's amazing Just people with like the PTSD and head trauma, right? And it actually it's compounded. It's kind of the same thing a lot of ways And you hear the stories. There's a lot of podcasts out there like people that leave their cane behind when they went to do this thing and and now

They're feeling touched on their skin for the first time. You hear these amazing podcasts and amazing but it's again, it's not like this psychedelic kind of voodoo, which thing, like there's scientific studies behind this chemical that really does work and really does rewire your brain. Incredible. Yeah, yeah. The way you say, you make me want to try it, but then you talk about 20 hours on the floor and I'm like, yeah, maybe not for me.

Jody did it. My fiance said Jody did it and she did it for eight rough hours. But then she got up, that jerk, she just got up and ate a sandwich and it felt great. That was it? Yeah, yeah. How could it affect you for 20? And then someone everybody's different but for me like I think that's what I say because I fought it the whole way and is this Jody Escobel yeah yeah yeah wow fiance yeah yeah yeah how long have you being engaged forever yeah yeah yeah because I feel like you've been together for a long time we're pretty

much married we went together for a long time when's the wedding yeah right yeah ask her ask her not me okay it's on her yeah yeah fair enough yeah um and what is she up to she is she oh so she's she's um she's really done something amazing in her life okay um she was she was a swat medic and and running a search and rescue thing with wow the state police where they she fly down in a helicopter and pick people up and save them there's a lot she's made national news about like saving like a boy scout troop and things like that wow incredible but she has no time like and like man we need to do something else you don't have any time right and and a job came along that brend brandon gipson offered her to do work for the city of albuquerque um in the aces department i'll tell you what

what that is and yeah do that it's got to be better than what you're doing now right for hours it's not because she rose up really quick now she's a director of the ACS program which means now under the mayor she's she's adjacent to the police chief or the fire chief and all that she's a chief of this whole program program wow it's one of those um alternative response things when um when the floyd that defund the police and all that stuff happened like they wanted to create like a social service that answers calls and now she's ahead of that in albuquerque new mexico and one of the few cities that's doing it and doing it well. And she's going all over the country to talk about her program and how to

teach other people how to set up a similar program and all that. So now she's more busy than she's ever been. Incredible. Both of you doing something completely out of fighting, which I love. But you've made a whole new life for yourself. Yeah. It's unbelievable. So again, it's Kill Me Again.

It's coming together right now, man. This right here, like, you're talking about Kill Me Again, like release on the 8th. This is the culmination of all the years. suffering and trying to do the thing and it's like everything's hitting right now like this is the epitome of everything I've been trying to do and and I got a great movie I just got back from the LA premiere the LA premiere was amazing dude like I'm completely sold out I'm standing in back of the back of me and Tater standing in back of the theater and just watching these in a seat professionals these people these these these people that are like jaded LA people

that it's a stupid movie I'm watching laughing throughout the whole thing reacting to the whole movie it's just wow Wow, dude. The whole, better than any fight, dude. Can't imagine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Holy shit. So now, so now I'm going to do that again here.

We're doing Tribeca here tonight, the New York premiere. And then we're going to, on the 8th, it's wherever you can get it. Amazing. Well, I can't wait to watch it. Thanks, man. I'm looking forward to it. I'm going to pay. I'm going to watch it probably on a streaming platform.

You said Apple or Amazon. Wherever you rent, it'll be there. Wherever. And limited, I would imagine, like, the big cities in America. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Congratulations. Good luck. Keep doing your thing.

It's amazing to see. And it was really great to reconnect. I can't remember the last time we had a chance to speak, but it's amazing to see you doing well. Thanks, brother. It's amazing to see you doing well. Thank you.

Thank you. I really appreciate that. He is the Dean of Meen, Keith Jardine. If you're a newer fan, do some research. Look, you know, there's a lot of new fans these days. Go back to UFC 76. Knockout in Anaheim, an incredible win over the likes of Chuck Adele, but many other wins as well.

We're going to take a quick break. Say goodbye to Keith. Be back with your questions. don't go anywhere. All right, that was my conversation with Josh Barnett from last week on the program, which was a very interesting one, in particular the stuff regarding

WW Unreal. How about Keith Jardine? What a fascinating guy. At times, I felt like he was staring into my soul. He is, I mean, a prolific character, one of the best, had a great run in the UFC, had a great run in MMA,

and now reinventing himself in a world that is very hard to succeed in. I wish him all the best. I'm looking forward to it. Has anyone, back there scene, kill me again. I have not seen it. Will you watch it, Frank? I will absolutely watch. Shall we have a team outing to go watch it? I think that sounds amazing. Let's do it. Thank you very much, Ms. Lippi. No time to waste because we have Kish, Kishon Davis,

joining us at 3 o'clock. We have Drickus Duplice, joining us at 2.30. I saw someone in the chat say, plus 5,000, plus 5,000. He shows up. How dare you? Paul Heyman, the Oracle, joining us. at 4 o'clock. What a day. What a day, guys. How lucky are we? And what a time for combat sports. Going back to that ESPN announcement, Netflix, all this stuff, has it ever been a more interesting and better time to be a part of the world of combat sports? Covering the world of combat sports. On crown.com, the number one unbiased combat sports outlet on the planet. Time now for everyone's favorite segment of the week. It is time. There's no time to waste

We are yet through these Very, very quickly I'm actually going to start with the newest Because maybe there's some questions regarding this new news And wouldn't you know it? There is Abdul 2604 Hey Ariel with the announcement of WWN NFL

Being on the new ESPN platform And now likely the UFC pay-per-views Is there a good chance we see Zoufa boxing events be a part of that platform for the majority of their cards. I mean, obviously there's conversations being had. Obviously, there's people talking. Does this mean it's going to happen 100%? No.

But yes, like I said at the top, they all have great relationships. To me, what is the biggest question, the ESPN deal with WWB is like the Peacock deal, in that if you are a subscriber to the new DTC, the flagship, if you are a subscriber to that or a plus subscriber, you're getting it. No extra charge, right? When UFC does its new deal, do we think that it will be a situation

where if you're a subscriber to Plus, to Netflix, to Peacock, to Paramount Plus, to any streaming platform, are you just going to get it, or is it still going to be the last model, the old model, which is, hey, pay for this and then you have to pay extra? Because they're really the last ones left at this point. There's the odd boxing, and I think boxing to try to move away from this, I know the purses are so high, there's the odd boxing fight, but even look at the big Canella Alvers versus Terrence Crawford fight. It's not on pay-per view. It's just with your regular Netflix subscription.

So that, to me, is the next big question. I'm obviously very curious to know where does the UFC end up, but perhaps most interesting to me is when they do sign their deal, will the pay-per-views still be behind a paywall or will they be a part of whatever streaming platform you'll have to sign up for?

I wonder. YFG-94, Ariel, just for fun, would you rather have to eat fruit at the end of each meal? or have to hear the D1 Glazer drop in where only you can hear it every time you give a compliment to anyone. Definitely, the latter.

Like, You guys are the D1 Glazer, huh? I mean, the former makes me feel sick. The other one's just kind of funny. I do wish I took the T-shirt, though. I would have put it right here. You can go back. Yeah.

I don't know if I'm welcome. Wait, why would you not be welcome? Big money. As a certified D1 Glazer, how about them bills on hard knocks last night? I had a smile on my face the entire episode and can't wait for the upcoming season. Thanks and go bills.

Can I tell you guys? I was not a fan of the bills on hard knocks if only because I'm trying to protect my team and I'm worried that you know, there's going to be too many distractions they're going to have to play up for the camera. There's stuff that gets spilled. There's drama. There's James Cook this and that.

I watched the first 10 minutes. then I fell asleep, I was the same. Oh, hey, Pizzi, how are you? I know you were here. I watched the first time. Don't ruin it for me. I don't want to know, all right?

I'm waiting to watch it today. I have the NFL network. They already took all my money. So I'll be able to watch it today. Petez, it's great. It's not stay open. Oh, you can't fucking wait, man. This is my team.

This is my team, and I'm getting to see them, like, pack their bags. I'll put a hundred quit on them this year. Win the fucking Super Bowl. It's all I need, man. It's all. It's just, please God. Just give me that. Give me that.

give me the Knicks and then I'll be I'll be happy. I don't even think I'll watch sports anymore to be honest but you get to see Josh just kind of being Josh you get to see our guy Dion Dawkins with his family Dawson Knox with his family it was it was the very first few minutes

but man I was loving it in fact my kids were sleeping so I was like maybe I should save this for them because I think they'll only fall further in love with the bills that's a great idea actually yes yeah that's a great Julian

He prefaces his question with asterisk high thoughts So I don't know if that means he said Is he high? I don't know I guess Or does he think he's like high brow No no no no it's for sure it just means he's high Oh okay

Is the Connor Habib press conference The climax or turning point of his fighting career Now is he referred which press conference by the way There was the New York one Talking about the kid and all you know Because there was the New York one that was crazy and then there was the one in Vegas fight week where then he started talking about Ali and all that stuff

where he was a lot more coherent and the New York one he was drinking and all that but then there was the fight week one which was equally memorable you remember what you know what I'm talking about right yeah yeah so I don't know which I don't know which one this guy's talking about but I guess he's just talking about the whole feud right

but it would be neither of those moments right that doesn't feel like the turning point well it was a big moment though like I can remember going on an aerial show after that New York one and I picked Habib to win. And it was like giving me death an oil in the boat.

I was like, he's fucking drinking at the press conference, lads. It's two weeks. Do you know what I mean? Like I'll tell you if one thing fucking Habib isn't doing

and that's for damn sure. He's not drinking at all. You know what I mean? Like it was just, it was so obvious to me, but our, our thoughts about McGregor had grown so mythical

and beyond anything we'd ever expected from another fighter that I was just like, this can't possibly be true. And to go back to what Artem said yesterday, I'd been kind of cut out of the camp. I had no access to the camp, but people, like, obviously still knew some of the guys, and everything I was hearing was really bad. So it was like, this just kind of confirmed to me that he was not taking the

void seriously. And I think when you look back in it now, it's like, how the fuck did anyone pick this guy to win that fight? Because it was so far gone from the dude that we had seen at the height of his power. Yeah. Again, as far as the question is concerned, it's probably made with a McGregor, right? Yeah. That's the height. Who said, someone said this to me once,

and I always think about it. I don't know if he's you are real. The new, like it was the moment, it was probably his biggest moment of the magic against Eddie Alvarez, but just the behavior at the press conference.

Remember he came late and it's like, it must be a McGregor fight. Traffic's busy. Yeah. Someone once said to me, like, this was the first sign, like this had,

he kind of jumped the shark to some degree. You know what I mean? So there's loads of things you can probably zoom in on and focus on. But it's still crazy to me that where we've ended up here, but when I learn, I guess. Yeah, I mean, who knows, who knows? By the way, what did you think of Artem on the show? Oh, yeah, thanks for ruining my fucking day. I've had 12 phone calls today.

Oh, Jesus, I'm sorry. It's a massive. I thought he was brilliant. I, you know, I didn't really know what they expect. And as he said, he has not done a lot of interviews. But, like, you lads, remember when Artem used to come on this show, it was always memorable. It was always, it was always a great interview. And I thought it was amazing.

And that's pretty much everyone's just ringing me. First of all, surprised that he's fighting again, surprised he did the interview, given the legal stuff that's going on. And, you know, finally just like, wow, that was really, really good. Like, he had me, I didn't really know it. Like, a lot of people are the same thing as me, like, didn't know what they expect, but kind of had us eating out of the palm of his hand by the end of that, I think. I thought what was so interesting about it was obviously he's involved in this legal issue, drama, whatever you want to call it, a case. But I do sort of feel like he could have, if he wanted to, shot low. And what came across to me through the screen was like he still

has genuine love and admiration for Connor, despite it all, right? Like even says we, like when talking about like getting the band back together and getting him back on track like that that's kind of how i i i don't know i walked away from that thinking like wow he could have taken some shots he could have made some remarks he could have you know hit him where the sun don't shine type of thing you know what i mean but uh i thought it was admirable i that that's what really jumped out at me that and the gray hair on the beard the bit of salt pepper man you can't go wrong but um there was mixed reactions to that as well like that was the one thing i had uh uh kind of a

spectrum of responses on his reaction to McGregor some people were like how can he be this nice to this guy like he blah blah blah but other people were like this is all like I think he's playing at coy like he's being strategic and that's I don't agree with that at all I think if Artem feels

a certain way he's going to say it so I think that was that's genuinely how he feels about the situation and let's be honest McGregor's call him every name under the sun since this came out so that extra points for Artem for not not meet him on that level By the way, I wanted to go back to the whole ESPN-W-E thing because I brought this up.

I'm seeing something here from a Twitter account, TGQ chairman, who says, based on a press release, if you have ESPN through your cable provider, meaning Comcast, DirecTV, Hulu, Live, Plus, YouTube TV, you get all the WWE pay-per-views for free at no extra charge, no paying the extra 30, which is something I said but my question was if you're just a plus subscriber you do not meaning you don't even have to be a plus subscriber

it sounds like no you do have to be a cable subscriber of some sort if you are getting ESPN yes but you don't have to be a plus subscriber YouTube TV any of those things that provide ESPN broadcast coverage to you you do not have to pay an additional for the $30 app that is DTC that is for people who do have that

what if you're just an 1199 plus subscriber? You do not get access. You would have to pay $30 or get cable. Because you know, like if you go on the ESPN Plus app right now, I cannot watch ESPN programming on ESPN Plus. Correct. Because you don't have cable. Correct. But my question is, someone like myself, I have cable. Yes, you will get it. But let's say I don't have plus. It does not matter. I still get it. Yes. It is part of the ESPN package, not the ESPN Plus package. interesting ESPN plus is a completely separate thing now the relevant question the like interesting spin out for our world is like well what does that mean if if UFC reups with ESPN do they remain on plus do they go to this direct to consider thing this is the big question that is fascinating by the way you were talking about um circling back for a second you were talking about ESPN uh if UFC splits up the pie does the landing place uh still have it on paper view or is it a product like this WWE? Something interesting also came out in their notes earlier today

where in the press release that is about earnings, the financial report, 2025, they do say that an increase in revenue attributable to, so they were talking about ESPN's domestic product, lower UFC Ultimate Fighting Championship pay-per-view fees due to lower average buys per event. So, USC pay-per-views are down at the moment, and they have publicly kind of said this.

I would wonder if the next home, or even the same home, if it's ESPN, is as interested in pay-per-view as a product overall, because as you can see here, the numbers seem to be down. Right. You know what I could see? I could see them doing this model where it's like you don't have to pay extra, but it's only on the DTC. Which would be the WWE version, which I could very easily see my. myself, which I think would be a great idea for both parties. The differences, as you guys know, like, okay, so there are 10 WWPLEs, and then there's

the two that have two nights, WrestleMania and SummerSland. The vast majority of those 10 feature the same people, the vast majority. UFC's different. So, you know, when Conner fights once a year back in the day, that's a really big deal. If, okay, let's equate it to today's, you know, Ilya. is fighting twice a year, three times max. Basically, the calculus will be, are there not enough of those, you know,

like in 2016 where there were five paper reviews that did over a million buys, are there not enough of those to where now the ceiling is a lot lower and everyone is kind of in the same sort of like middle pack, so to speak, to where it's worth doing something like that. But what if... UFC is the last one left, in my opinion,

where it's a consistent thing, where there's ups and downs, there's peaks and values. Oh, this guy's fighting? it's going to go up. Well, this is, you know what I mean? As opposed to WWE where it's like, all right, it's Royal Rumble. You're watching it really regardless of who's on the card because you just know what the Royal Rumble is.

You're maybe not going to tune at the backlash, but you're going to watch Clash in Paris. But it's always the same guys. So it's very hard to pop that number as opposed to in the UFC where it's like, holy shit, we have to watch Ilya versus Islam because this is the only chance we're ever going to get to watch these guys. So what if it established more of like the DeZone style, which is you subscribe, you get these,

but every once in a while we might say that there's one that's like above and beyond and you have to kind of pony up that could be the way. Maybe that's where Netflix comes into play. Or yeah, you give it to another. Maybe Netflix is getting four of those a year and one of them is the White House event.

But then there's ESPN by the way, in this day and age where ESPN, I mean, talk about a week for ESPN where they've planted their flag into the ground. The NFL deal and now this and who knows what else is to come like they are just, you know, they're killing it. They're absolutely killing. The thought that ESPN was struggling or the ship was sinking and they

were going woke and all this bullshit. It seems like business is doing Just Finance is going to do a hell of a lot better very, very soon. Here's the thing. At this point, I still feel like the UFC is that model to where you don't want to put it all in front of the paywall. And, and if Netflix wants to do a deal where it's like, hey, we're going to get four, does ESPN want to be in the business where like, hey, we're getting, not the scraps, but like we're not getting the premium. Yeah, it's not the top four. We're getting the premium in the NFL.

We're getting the premium in WW. So I don't know how that. And how would you decide the four? Does Netflix get to say, okay, we want this one? Yeah. And is ESPN going to be in that? Here's the one advantage that ESPN has. They know this, right?

They've been doing business with the UFC. They know what these pay-per-view numbers are, and now we see it here in writing that they're not, they're not doing well. Right, right. They know that these fees are lower. So you can't as the UFC come back to ESPN. Now, you could come back to another broadcaster, but you can't come back to ESPN and be like, yeah, we're giving four to Netflix and you're going to get the other eight. They, they can't justify that from a business perspective. Now, in the UFC's favor at the negotiating table is the fact that very, very clearly, this ESPN direct-to-consumer product is their priority right now. They need to get people to sign up for this. They need to get people to subscribe to this and be consumers of the ESPN broadcast product. The timing's great for the UFC because they have an offering that people are at least going to tune in for and ESPN knows at what numbers that is, hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions for a very large pay-per-view. It's all going to come down to the dollars and cents and they're going to have to negotiate and they're going to have to push back and forth and figure out how to make the math

work, but ESPN would know if they are getting an inferior product because they have seen under the hood now. Another broadcast partner might not have necessary. I'm sure they're going to get those numbers though. They're going to have, you know, like, if they've obviously I don't know. I don't know if ESPN or

UFC is willingly handing over pay-per-view numbers to somebody who's not already privy to them. I'd be shocked if they did. But I don't think they're very good at now. Couldn't a power player like Netflix, like borderline demand them? Well, Netflix would be not in a pay-per-view. business so they wouldn't necessarily need a when they're going out to these meetings and stuff

like that they're showing numbers they've got to be showing numbers they're not just going into this blind i'm sure they're showing numbers i i i would be very skeptical i could be proven wrong if they are showing their pay-per-view numbers i'd be shocked okay you mention the if they did the dTC like if they did like the the pla style like you get all 14 pay per views on on espn if you just pay the 30 dollars a month to me it feels like ufc fans would be much more down for that like you you pay that $30 a month, and yeah, maybe it's not the best paper view for a month. A, how many people forget to cancel their subscription if they were to get it just for the Ilya Charles fight and then B, just tuning in, you pay the $30 a month with this $50 less than what

you're paying now, plus you get all the other stuff on it? Man, it just feels like that, that is the way to go. But is that good business for the UFC is the question. Certainly the fans will react it. We all know that the paper views are down, and now they're admitting that the pay reviews are down, and I just can't imagine there's ever going to be a resurgence in. in that market. With the streamability, if that's a word, of just like finding streams and not having to pay for the pay-per-views, it just feels like that's only going to get more and more

popular. Let's stick with this ESPN discussion for a second. Jamal 2020 says, Ari, I'll give us your thoughts on the NFL and ESPN deal and the subsequent death of sports journalism on that network. Here's the thing. I know they're in business now. I know that basically the NFL was given 10% of ESPN, which was valued at about $2.5 billion. But it's not like they haven't been in business for 30 freaking years. I don't think this changes much, to be honest. What's the difference of when they had a documentary about concussions? And the NFL is like, you're not airing this or you're losing rights.

And they subsequently were like, we're not airing this. Well, exactly. Exactly. So they've had to make decisions in the past. There are people on their network that criticize them. there are people on their network that don't and there's decisions that have to be made as far as the coverage and there's dot com and all this stuff but like this is not the death knell of journalism on ESPN and whatever that journalism is you know what I mean look I was there I was there

when I was trying to just be I wasn't trying to unearth any deep dark secrets but I was there trying to cover the sport while they were in business with another entity and for the most part no one really told me while I was there that you can't say X, Y, and Z unless I said something and it got back to them and then it got back to me and then it was like, hey, this and this happened. But like when I walked in, I never had, excuse me, a conversation with anyone who said like, don't talk about X, Y, and Z. Now, UFC is here, NFL is here. I think there are constantly decisions that have to be made.

I think there's constantly, you know, decisions that have to be made when it comes to, you know, what you're going to cover, how you're going to cover it. But make no mistake about it. The rights business and the journalism business, we're talking about two different stratospheres. There's way more money involved in the rights business than the journalism business. So the rights business is always going to win out. And if ESPN isn't in business with an entity, they're probably just not going to cover it. Just ask the NHL. They were out of business with them, and now they're back in business with them. And are they doing any deep, dark, secret exposites? Like, you know what it is and there's other places where you could go for that um who like let me ask you guys because

maybe you consume this more like who's like the big investigative NFL reporter there or even just big investigative journalists there that now is going to feel like his legs have been cut out from underneath them as a result of this deal yeah probably nobody it's not happening I wonder what the the chef their rapaport uh the relationship is going to be like yeah that's interesting are they are they frenemies? What are they? When I work there, you weren't allowed to say anything until Schaefter said it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So who knows?

I mean, there's all kinds of dynamic and what's going to happen with the NFL network and all this stuff. Our guy, Rich Eisen, is in a great spot coming back home, face of the NFL Network, and now his show, back on ESPN. There's so many fun things to talk about here. Yes. How do we get Red Zone, too? I'm very worried about Red Zone. I'm very worried about it.

What is there to be worried about? I just saw a lot of people saying it's going to It's going to be ads. You know what I mean? The whole thing is commercial free for seven hours. You know, that's my Sunday. You've got to keep that. You got to keep Scott Hanson.

You got to keep seven hours. Scott said he's staying. He said that out of social media. So if you keep Scott, you have to keep the commercial free. You lose everything if you don't. Is that really that big of a deal? It's the whole stick. Welcome into seven hours of commercial free football.

Do they have commercials on the thing? No. You're paying a premium for Red Zone. Like, I think we said earlier. It is not included in their direct-to-consum. 100%. You pay a lot of money. It's great as goddamn sports show of all time.

They're also going to probably expand it to other sports. Like, SEC football now, you can potentially get an SEC football red zone. I mean, I'm down for that. I'm watching the Netflix thing. I'm bound for that. This is a very fascinating time. It's a... And UFC's in a good position to enter the market right now.

You know it's in a good position. TK. Freakin-O. Yes. I mean, golly. Now they're getting into the boxing business. Like, it's just this thing has worked. And you know, like from a sports media perspective, like I mentioned Nick, I mentioned Mark Shapiro, Ari Emanuel. Like it is literally like the heaviest of hitters of sports and media of the last 10, 15 years all coming together.

Yeah. It's really, it's the Avengers. It's really something to be seen. Adrian, hi Ariel, I don't like change. So including Mr. Pizzi in the new era, irk me. However, he has won my heart. And when he says, I love you all at the end of the crack, I truly believe. him keep up the good work so accepts me now is that what he's saying it's a beautiful thing I do love you all actually individually and collectively thank you very much here's a good one who to fuck Ariel what's more awkward watching a movie with your kids when you can sense a sex scene is about to come up or watching a movie with your parents as a kid and you knew a sex scene was coming up because you had already watched the movie without

telling them and it was their first time watching for me option B Because with my kids, I can, like, get ahead of it and fast forward. No, for me, I'm way more terrified of my kids seeing it than my parents knowing I know what it is. Way more terrified. Yeah, no, that's not, that's not a good feeling. Anyone else? Frank? Yeah. Frank, Frank wallows in the awkward.

Thanks for that, Frank. He loves it. That's good work on your part. Thank you, sir. Frank is notorious for giving short answers Speaking of Frank Jimmy

Why would Frank go into work So sick Not cool behavior And if it was my office I'd be raging at Frank Also GC's deadpan behavior is on point What does that mean for GC I don't know that part

What do we mean deadpan? He likes your deadpan delivery It is on point I don't understand Frank Please don't evade the question There was a question in there yes how can you do this i mean sick as a dog yeah like the second he opened his mouth i was like

what's up frank how you doing he's just like oh man i was like wow you you sound sick you sound incredibly ill and he was like yeah i didn't even have a visual he was just in my headset going count the five and i was like jesus christ any regrets not not at all no the uh the work culture in this room demands that we work sick not sick i mean even even when you asked me oh what are you sick i'm like yeah i'm very sick connor was like no no no no you're supposed to say you're not like but i very much am why am i don't think i did you did it was in the pantry wow wow wow i get the thanks for sticking it through frank from aerial and then if you could just stick it through it to wednesday i don't care what you do on thursday did i say that yeah yeah yeah

then you're like i don't give a fuck of about Thursday and Friday. Frank, you just make it to 5 p.m. on Wednesday, baby. You texted me, like, I hope you're feeling better. Then you felt guilty because I left you on red, and you were like, did you think I was just... I felt insulted. But yes, go ahead. I'm fucking sick. You want me to sit there in...

It feels like you have a foggy recollection of all of this, Frank. It also kind of feels like you've been holding on to a lot of this, so please... Yeah, no, I'm letting it out. And then I come in the room on Monday, and I'm like, look, I could disinfect some of this stuff because the people who were in here the previous Thursday, but also if you feel uncomfortable about it, it's fine. He's like, in your words, where, well, you know, that toothpaste is already out of the tube, like, don't worry about it. Then I put the IFB on you, I disaffected everything. For you then to get sick and then

realize revisionist history, maybe that wasn't the right decision. Anyway, I had a lot to say. That's the most you've said on the program since the reality TV. Yeah, no, that was great stuff. Let's quickly go to some other ones. Someone is asking Kuro's dad if we can get an uncrowned subreddit. It feels like a Frank job. Why does I feel like a Frank job? You're the Reddit guy. You are the Reddit guy, Frank. So I'm supposed to start the Reddit? Yeah. Yeah. I'll do it. What are you eating right now? Everybody's eating. Everybody's chewing, Frankis, too. I'm trying, by the way, I'm trying to play a game here

with the director, Andy, where I'm trying to eat in between because I haven't eaten a thing and I'm starving and we still have like nine more interviews to go. And I'm not doing a good job of it very clearly. I'm trying to help you out. Yeah, I'm like, oh, I'm a little too. We're doing break. Thank you, Connor. Thank you. So the rest of you need to talk.

Thank you very much, Miss Lippey. There are a couple of nuts out on the table. For me? Let's some other snacks. Nature Valley Bar. Where? Lovely. Love a nature.

Oh, it's on the table outside the studio. Don't want to leave food. Oh, for me. I'm eating the salmon, actually. I'm really sorry. I make it back to the fridge. Oh, no problem. I got an L email there, G.

From the fancy football people there. So we're going to need to lock in for that again. Oh, yeah? We've got to have some team meetings about the drafts coming up soon, yeah? Are we doing guillotine as well? Can I tell you something? Guatine sounds great. No joke.

When you said fantasy football, I was actually thinking like Premier League. No, I've got to do that. I'm running a champion. I'm going to get that at Yahoo. They need to get that at Yahoo. Fantasy Premier League? We need to start an uncrowned guillotine league that people can join.

Uncrowned guillotine league for fighting or for, for, yeah. And what is guillotine for those that don't know? it's like you pick something to happen in a game and if it doesn't then you're boom you're out it's like a survivor league but i think with like props or something okay i gotta look into it um actually can i tell you my understanding of it oh please if you're the last place team you're out and then your players become free agent that's it that's it that's yeah i think you actually got it 100% wrong yeah i i actually have only watched the commercial and i was just blown away by the production value i didn't understand the rules at all you were hoping that no one else read up on it i did because i was curious about it And I actually think it's kind of cool because then you become, you're like, now your last place and your players just get dispersed into the diaspora. I'm also going to start a

uncrowned Strava League so we can all compete in running as well. Now I don't know. A lot of uncrown stuff. I don't know about that. A lot of uncrown stuff to come. I don't know about that. I need cardiovascular activity.

I promise you you're going to win. All right. Well, thank you guys. Appreciate it. One last good one here. Hunter Biden's, unless we have our guest, we have him?

Or not yet? Okay. Hunter Biden. said what? Hunter Biden's crack pipe. Ariel, who the fuck has been folks? But then he just showers him in praise.

Guy's handsome and Jack, but exudes Simpson's comic book guy energy. He's graded his job and hilarious. But after laughing, stares into the camera with a look that would scare most women. Why is it? His last name is spelled like that. Man needs his own origin story short film.

Him, Ptze, and Chuck are accomplishing the most impossible feat of producing a show that's as funny as any big comedy podcast without being obnoxious and also treating the core subject matter with the gravity and respect it deserves. Thanks for putting the crack on the weekly schedule. Best, HBCP.

Jesus, what a day for me, what? Wow. Thank you. Thank you. Belforkin time. That is a good one to leave with. Perhaps back end we get to more, but no promises because it is a stack day.

It is an absolute jam-pack day here on the program, and it's a great pleasure and honor for the first time in a very, very long time. I think maybe, oh dear, maybe two and a half years. The last time we've had this man on the program via Zoom, we did have the phone call while he was on vacation, which we appreciated very, very much.

But this is a little more special than that because it's via video communication. He is the reigning defending UFC middleweight champion. He defends his title in exactly 10 days from now at the United Center against the Big Bad Hamzaa Shemayev. He's the pride of South Africa. only. Drickus Duplessi on the program. Hey, hey, there he is. Hello, Drickus. How are you? How are you? It's good to be back. I am great, man. Chicago has been treating me very, very well.

Yeah, it's been amazing. Feeling great. Yeah, it's good. I got to be honest with you. You've been everywhere. I saw you throwing out the first pitch. I saw you at the Man You game. What about that first pitch? Because we've seen a lot of celebrities kind of mess up on the mound. It seemed like you were pretty comfortable there. And you know what? What first was drawn to me, You stood at the top of the mound. A lot of people go where the grass kind of ends there to make it a little easier, but you went for the hardest point. Yeah, I mean, it was, everybody was asking me here, am I nervous?

I've never thrown a baseball in my life. We don't have that sport in South Africa. But I played some cricket and played some sports. I like sports. So I'm not the best guy with a ball in hand. But when I went on there, everybody asked me if I was nervous, how are I feeling? I said, well, I'm going to ace it. What do you mean?

But it's a lot further than you. you would think. Yes. You throw it. I mean, what's like just over 60 feet. Yeah. Like I Googled it and I said, we work in meters and I realized that's a, that's a far throw. And they gave me the option.

I said, you can stand in front of it. And I said, well, that seems like teeing off from the lady's tea in golf. And if you screw it up then, then it's even worse. So I just went for the full proper way doing it. And well, at least I didn't bounce it and at least it didn't go haywire. So I watched some people that screwed it up. up very badly. So it's better than that. But it was one of the coolest things I've ever done. It was really a highlight for me in things that I've done, you know, outside of the sport.

It was insane. My first baseball game I've ever watched live. Wow. And it was incredible. I am definitely now a baseball fan. I'm actually booking to watch a game directly after the fight again. Wow, wow, wow. And did you understand the rules? It's a little complicated if you're not so up to speed. No, no, no, no. We have softball in South Africa. Ah, got it. Okay. Yep, yep, yep. So, I mean, it's not on the same level, but softball, it has the same rules. Of course. So I understand, I understand the rules, yes. And that was one of the, I mean, that's one of the most famous and historic stadiums in the history of the sport. You know that, right? Rigley Field. It's a big deal.

Yeah, and they said the stadium, we're alongside with Boston. Yes. Is the only neighborhood stadiums. And that's special. And you can see, you can see the whole vibe in that stadium. It was incredible. Well, the whole of Chicago, I have to say, one of the favorite places I've been in America has been, has been Chicago. It's, you know, I'm not a big city guy. I'm very used to nature. And even though I live in the city, and the farm is 25 minutes drive away. But this is city as far as you can see. And, you know, it's, I've been pleasantly surprised with Chicago. First time there? Yeah. Okay. Wow. So, and it seems like you came out early to get acclimated? Do you feel like by now are you acclimated to the time zone

and all that? Or does that take more? Yeah, 100%. It takes me like, I would say, because it's seven hours, so it takes like seven days for your body to get used to it. But for me, sleep-wise, it took me like four days to really, you know, go to sleep at the time I want to and wake up the time I want to. And yeah, I mean, I feel amazing. I've been here for well over a week and, you know, almost 10 days that I've been here. And, yeah, I came out three weeks earlier. I always do that. I like to know where everything is.

You know, I don't like to get you and fight close to the fight and, you know, don't have the gym yet. I have to figure things out. I like to be as comfortable as I can be when I get to the fight. So, you know, that's the recipe that's been working for me. You don't want to be worrying about travel your weight when you travel. You know, I'm settled in. You know, I feel comfortable.

I know where the gym is. I know where everything is. I know where the United Center is. I've been there. So I feel at home. It's going to be special. I mean, I was in the United Center yesterday. You know, the history of that place, even though I don't know a lot about basketball,

Michael Jordan is one of my sporting heroes. I have watched so many things, read so many books on his mindset and how he approaches things. He is incredible. and being in that stadium where the statue of him saying the greatest they ever was and the greatest they would ever be, that's goals. That's a goal for any athlete. And so, you know, one of the big sort of talking points over the last couple of years regarding your opponent, Hamza Chamaev, was, oh, he can't fight in the United States.

And we never really got any sort of confirmation if this was a real thing. Were you at all, when it became clear that Hamza was going to be next, it became very clear, you know, after your title defense, was there any? worry that this fight would have to only be in a particular part of the world, or was that just something that people were talking about online? Eric, I'm going to be super honest with you when, before this fight was made, I'm assuming the UFC got away for him or his team, I don't know, somebody figured out that he can get into the U.S. before announcing the fight for sure and before letting me know that we are fighting.

So my request was, I asked the UFC, and I begged them, actually. I want to fight him either in Abu Dhabi, fight him in his neck of the woods, like I have been doing with so many other opponents. And, you know, I've grown quite fond of that. So that's what I want to do. I want to fight Abu Dhabi, Saudi, or any of that region, any way in that region, fighting there in front of his own crowd, his people. And they said they want to do Chicago. They let me know a couple of weeks later,

okay, they're going to do Chicago. And I thought, well, great. It's a place I haven't seen. It's great. And, you know, for me, it really makes no difference where the fight is, to be honest. Okay. Although, just a couple of weeks ago,

we saw the PFL make its debut in South Africa. And it was like the kind, you know, with all due respect to the, the, the, the, the, of the world and whatnot. This felt like the first major event in South Africa for you to be fighting so close to that date and seeing that. And I know a DDP fight in South Africa would be monumental compared to that, a much bigger deal. Was there any part of you that was like, man, at some point I need that? I have to have that. I have to experience that. 100%. I think you didn't mean it with any disrespect, but I do think in that the EFC is something

that you are, a lot of people are overlooking because they are feeding ground to all these organizations, where there'd be UAE, Brave, PFL, all these other organizations, yeah, I went to KSW, but the show and the production value of the EFC is world loss. So it was so cool because all the fighters that fought in PFL was EFC side fighters. To see these countrymen, my fellow countrymen, guys that fight on the same league in EFC where I

started my career. The EFC was my road to the UFC and becoming World Jam. Seeing these guys get that opportunity through PFL is amazing. Getting the opportunity to fight on a big stage, fighting in a big league like PFL. And

you know, getting, seeing how excited South Africa was to see PFL. Two years ago, BFL could have been as big as it is now, five years ago, they wouldn't have sold 100 tickets. Nobody knew. There was EFC because it was the local brand started in 2008, and your die-hard fans would go watch EFC.

But it wasn't a mainstream sport. Now, MMA and South Africa is a mainstream sport. People want more and more and more. So that is for me exciting because I feel I played a role in making people more aware of the sport. And now all these guys that are coming through, getting wins on the PFL. My teammate Justin Clark, he got a first round finish in PFL. Now, I mean, that means that we have so much talent we had. Of course, he's an incredible fighter from South Africa. It's not from my team, but there's so much talent there. And now they're getting that exposure. So overall,

I want MMA to win. I want the whole world to love the sport as much as I do. And the whole of South Africa is getting to that page where they just love it. So just to see how more people are getting the opportunity to become world champions, more people are getting the opportunity to really make it in the sport, in the sport of MA. It's incredible when, you know, for the BFAL to come South Africa, you know, people saw Kabib in South Africa. People went absolutely crazy. It was incredible. I mean, I was, I was totally bummed that I couldn't be there because I had to travel for this fight. But, you know, it is, it's amazing. Your fight on August 16th is one of the most anticipated of the year. The guys in the back, the boys in the back, the producers of the show,

they say it's their most anticipated fight of the year, certainly New York Wrix. And it's warranted, and I think it's for several reasons. You have gained this momentum as a champion, and also it's Hamza's first title fight. And I think the easy question to ask you is, how do you feel about being the underdog? I feel like everyone asks you that. But I am getting the sense, and I want to know if you feel the same, that you are finally starting to get the respect that you deserve as champion, where people are starting to say like, oh, you know what? If this goes past the first or second, it's DDP. Like, if you looked into a crystal ball and you know the outcome of the fight and it's

a fight that was won in the championship rounds or via decision, DDP won this fight, as opposed to maybe a year ago where it's like, oh, Hamza's just going to steamroll through whomever is the champion. Are you starting to feel that as well? Are you starting to feel like people are finally giving you that respect? Well, let me tell you this. I mean, you just spoke about two years ago that I said you would steamroll me. that just shows you how it may works you know it's one day you're the hero one day you're the zero

that's how it is people you know three years ago and you before the nose surgery and all that whole thing happened do you think anybody would have ever said after the first round drinkers has a chance no it was it was literally the opposite it was after round one drink is done that's what they said with strickland first time that's what they said with whittaker that's what they said, and now it's almost, I'm getting praise for my championship around performances. So, I mean, there's two things you can take away from that, that people just change their opinions the whole time. And then, of course, it shows that I'm ever evolving because, you know, there was a problem, we fixed that problem, and now that problem has become my strength.

The weakness of after round one became my strength. And, you know, a fight like this being, I've been getting so much respect. I don't care what people say in terms of Chikis is not a good champion. I don't, at the end of the day, I'm getting paid. I've defended the belt twice. I'm going to do it now for a third time.

Every fight I have is exciting. That is a fact. There is no boring fights. I've never had one. Never going to have one. And then, of course, the resume, the people I have fought, I have fought.

You know, before about, A month ago, I fought everybody in the top five. And that stage, everybody except for Imamov. And, you know, that's the resume. I mean, that's what I want. I want to fight the best guys. That's why I wanted this Hamzad fight so badly. So, yes, absolutely, I've been getting a lot more respect from more people

because I've proven that, you know, say what you will, I'm winning. And it's, it's, my style has proven to be effective. Not for everyone. Yes, controversial. Yes, it is awkward, but that's on purpose, and that's why I am the champion of the world. So, yeah, I am the underdog, but, you know, when it comes to respect, I only care about the respect of a very small group of people. You know, that's my country, my family, my team, and the people that believe in me.

Those who don't believe in me, do it at your own per hour. I don't really care. I've walked into many stadiums with booze, and I've walked out with cheers, So that will happen once again. You mentioned the awkwardness on purpose. That's really interesting because I don't know if people give you that credit. I think they just say you're awkward, period. But that's something you do on purpose?

100%. You know, it's awkward to the people because it's something that they've never seen. So anything that somebody does that's different is going to be awkward. Because how do you defend that? You know, when I say it is on purpose, I do things. in a way that me and my coaches have been training for 12 years because we look at fights and we think this is the way they do it. I think this is a better way to do it. Let's try it. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. It's about doing something. If you just throw your

strikes like everybody else, you're going to find a striker that's going to be able to figure that out. And they've seen it a million times in their gyms, in fights, and that is why. It's not it is not really awkward it's just different but I mean we as humans are very suspect of new things we don't like change that much so I mean and once again I said it I said a couple of years ago people were only critiquing my style and they were they always have been but while they are critiquing they should be taking notes because they are going to fall behind and then they're going to play catch-up and that's exactly what happened and now all of the sudden there's a lot of people that say oh but look at this he's doing this right he's doing this right where in the

beginning was, this is terrible, this is wrong, shouldn't be doing this. Now people are actually going and looking at the style and saying, this is actually very effective. What is doing here, you know, and then again, I'm not fighting at perfect. I'm fighting at a six out of ten year. I'm still far away from giving the performance that I know I can. I'm far away of being the striker that I know, I can be the wrestler and a grappler. You know, when you get into fight because of situations, you know, the fighter that I know I can be, how I can strike, It's so difficult to do it in a fight, but as my career goes, the triggers that made his debut versus the triggers that fought the last time is two very different people, and I keep evolving

and getting better, and that's why I feel I'm chasing the perfect round, the perfect fight doing everything to perfection in a fight. I think it's impossible, but it's worth chasing. A couple of months ago, Nasu Diyimov said that he was going to be the backup fighter for this fight. the end, I don't actually think he is because he's fighting in September. Am I wrong about that? That's a side question. The main reason I bring this up is, and you could address that if you know the answer, but your response was, I guess I'm fighting Nasurdin I'm Imov, sort of implying that, you know, Hamzat isn't going to make the walk. Do you still feel that way 10 days out, or were you just sort of messing with him?

Yeah, I was only, I was only missing with him. To be honest with you, I didn't even thinking about it once. I didn't think about is he going to make the fight? I didn't care. It wasn't about that. I can only worry about the things I can control. So, you know, if I'm going to do a fight camp where I'm constantly worried, is this guy going to show up? Once you get to that dark place,

am I going to do the extra session? Am I going to wake up earlier? And I'm like, am I going to put myself through absolute hell? When you start doubting if your opponent's going to show up, you're going to start, you know, backing off. I don't operate like that I prepared for the date

I don't prepare for the opponents What about these tweets though I mean some of these tweets are Are lethal my friend I mean back in March you tweet Between Hamzad and Shara There are only three senses Touch smell and sound

That is the truth And then And then Balal loses And you write Essentially like Great job Well done jk like seconds after he loses this is this is menace type stuff watching i was watching the fight

to see him lose that was literally i think he's an absolute asshole so um i was i was really happy to see that so that's why i made the tweet i was i was that tweet was ready before the before the before the fight started i had that tweet ready it was basically you knew just got the house go boom you had no doubt he was going to lose uh well call it hope call it out no doubt it was one of those two. And what? You know, let me tell you this. Let me tell you this.

It seems like I'm just going for these guys. I have never been disrespectful to anybody that's been respectful to me. You know, Bilal had a lot to say about me, about the middleweight division. Couldn't even keep the belt on his own. Couldn't even defend it once. You know, took a whole year to defend the belt. They did a terrible job at that. And he had so much to say.

So that's why he got what he, that's why, you know, that's why I gave him shit. obviously with Sarah he talked shit he said he would like to see me lose and he doesn't like to see anything so that's why I went after him and that's it

I'll respect you you respect me if you want it if you want the smoke I'll give it that's that's how it is and if you don't want I have enough friends

if you don't want to be my friend keep your mouth shut I will come for you it's you know it's mutual respect that's how I that's how it always is with me I've never been disrespectful

to anybody that's been respectful to me but if you want to come and try and bully me try and talk about, you know, the thing that I dedicate my life to, so I'm bad at that, I will come for you. And by the way, I think it's incredibly entertaining. I think it has gained more fans in your favor. In addition to that, the, you know the one video, and I'd love to ask the origin of it,

when you're putting on the suit, like, you look like a character, this one right here. What is, what is the origin of this one? Like, because this is like straight out of the moon. No, it's actually crazy. This was my second fight. It was like UFC 2, 656. it was Connor and Boyer and they had that 360 cam camera and it was after my fight and they wanted me to do that

and I see that one being recycled everywhere yeah it's almost like the villain are you okay with that? Yeah I love it you love it good you I mean some people embrace being the villain would you prefer you prefer being the bad guy? No no I don't I don't think I don't I don't have a villain I don't I don't think I'm the villain you know, I don't, I don't think so. I think it's, yeah, I don't have the villain. That's not, that's not me. I don't think so. I think what I am is witty and quick with it. I think I don't think I'm a villain. You know, it's a, yeah, I don't have what it takes on. I think it is, I understand what you're trying to say. You're not saying that you're a bad guy, but when you come back with these witty responses and stuff. Yeah, I'm not, even, even in terms of when it comes to picking you.

a persona like I don't I've never tried to do that I've never tried to pick a persona like I mean if you take a guy like Kobe Covington one of the nicest guys ever and you look at the persona I don't have the stomach for that I just I am just I am there so you know I treat it like I would treat it when I speak to my friend if you try to come at me the bansy is on sometimes you win sometimes you lose but on the mic I'm on fire I'm ready to go and you know if it's if it's all respect then it is you know sometimes it can be just a fight. I don't do fake beef, never have, never will. After a fight, I respect any person, even if I don't like it. Even if I despise you as a person, once you've shared

that octagon with me, I have to respect you because I know what it takes to get in there. So I have respect for each and every single fighter. And I mean that from the bottom of heart, every single guy that steps in there deserves respect. But some people, I just don't like as a person. And that's totally fine, because some people don't like me as a person. That is completely fine. Does Hamzad fall into that category? I don't know Hamzad on a personal level, but there are things I've seen, not crazy about it, but... Like what? You know, the whole attitude around it, you know, missing weight and just robbing it off and, you know, just going about it as if there was nothing wrong, you know, says, I don't care about

weight, of course you have to care about weight. If I don't care about weight, I'm going to fight it everywhere so that's great that's not that's not how the game works i feel um up to this point that is that is what i what i've seen and you know of course talking down to every single fight that is not his that's that's what i'm talking about that's that's where you know the infight him and gilwood burns i know gilbert burns on a personal level gilbert burns great fighter an amazing person you know the in fights you know slapping him in after the after the bow all that all that kind stuff, I mean, it's hard to like. Is he overrated in your opinion?

No. I think he's... He's worthy of all the praise. He's worthy of all the praise and everything that he receives. Absolutely. I think Hamzad is a special fighter. As far as the Whitaker fight, the last time we saw him, to me, that was the reminder that he is still a special fighter. There was maybe a narrative for some people who thought, like, okay, maybe we've seen the best of him, maybe the sickness got to him, maybe he's not as good, as he first appeared. Whatever, the Gilbert Burns fight,

he goes to the distance, the Usman fight was a bit surprising. Was that the one where you also said, okay, no, this guy is back or legit, or you always believe, you never doubt it? From the first time I saw him fight, I knew this guy was going to be special. 100%.

I knew he was going to be special. There was a stage where he didn't fight for like two years or something. And listen, he speaks a lot more than he fights. I can tell you that much, too. But there was a long period of time. He was calling out every single person. That just started getting annoying.

It was annoying shit out of me because he was calling out wild weights, middle weights, light, heavy weights, but he wasn't fighting anyone. But there was never ever a stage where I went, oh, this guy's overrated. No, he is as good as people think. I think he's as good as people think. I just think I'm a lot better than people think. Can I ask what happened a few months ago where it seemed like all these middleweights were saying like, oh, interim fights. and I'm going to step in and then you came out eventually

and said like there is no injury there is no day but it was do you remember this there was all this talk online of all these guys saying like let me step in let me do this what was that all about yeah I mean it was

I think it all started with Kyle Barrow went like he has a guy in my camp that said I'm injured and I went what you don't know nobody in my camp what do you mean and that was first year

and everybody just went with it in the media I was that was actually a nice good jab to the media saying, listen, guys, why don't you check your sources? And then everybody was like, chickas injured, out for a year. I had no injury. Whatever. I immediately saw it when it came out at Carborough said that. And for on purpose, you'll see it was about a week where I did not comment one thing. You just kind of let it trust there. I went like, go crazy. I want to see where this ends. Yeah. And, you know, whenever it was time, I already knew me and the

UFC already spoke, that I knew that I had the fight. I already knew that this was going to happen. So I was really enjoying all the rumors. Everybody, oh, just Ian Dreykies is injured, this happened, this happened. I was like, guys, that is not at all, too. So then they wanted to do an interim title. An interim title, I fought three times in the past 12, 12 months. I literally fought three months before that.

Now you want to do an interim trial. Are you insane? Are you insane? That was just desperation from all the guys in the back that want to get, you know, touch gold, even if it's just interim. Do you believe, I know you have a fight coming up, but you did say it'll be your next title defense, so you're obviously very confident. Is the winner of the Boholio Imov fight next? Do you think that's the number one contender fight? I think so. I think, let me tell you this. I have no idea. I don't mind it. how exciting it is, but then again, I'm fighting Hamzat now, so it's a massive fight. After this fight, I'm going to be the guy. I'm going to be the whoever fights me, that's the big fight. That's

how it is. And with Cairo and Imamov, that's a brilliant fight. I do believe that's a right fight to make. And yeah, both of them, after the win, easy win, I think Imamov deserves the the shot. But I think if Cairo beats him him off, they're going to make him fight a every neither. You think so? That's what I think. I think so.

He's the new kid on the block. Like, last time we spoke, he wasn't even in the picture. Have you been impressed with him? Yes. I think I've trained with him. I think he's a really good fighter. I think he's a good guy. Yeah, I think he's been, you know, he's been doubted by everyone, and I think he's been doing a great job. I honestly think that if Cairoo,

beats Imamov, they are going to make him and Renéder in a fight for number one contender. Given that relationship... If Imamov beats Caio, they're going to give him the title shot because it's time. Okay. Given that relationship and that history, would you have any issues fighting RDR if you had to? No, not at all.

Okay, okay. I would fight my brother for my title if I have to. And I would try to kill him. I promise you that. And he's my best friend. So the whole teammate thing, all that, that doesn't work in your world? No, it's, when we get in there, there are no friends.

There are no relationships in a fight. No, that's... And I'll let you go in a moment. And again, great to have you on. I really appreciate it. The consensus seems to be right now in the UFC, the top three pound for pound are Ilya, Islam, Marab. And there's a debate. Is it Islam 1? Is it Ilya 2 is Mara?

But that seems to be the consensus. You win on August 16th. Do we need to start talking about DDP? Pantosia gets love. and I think you get that love in that top five. But as far as the top three, maybe even, number one, you tell me, is it time that you start getting that recognition as well? Do you care about that sort of thing?

Yeah, it's not, I don't really care for it. You know, it's great to have the recognition. I do believe Ilya is right where he deserves to be. He deserves to be at number one. What he's been doing and in this fashion he's been doing it, absolutely incredible. I think he's very deserving of number one. Merab is incredible

but I think people have grown so used to the Marachief winning that they forgot they've forgotten how amazing he is so you know being in that top three is it's a tough it's a tough ask but after I beat Hamzad what are you going to say I mean look at the names

that I thought I've beaten so I mean I'm not going to say put me a number one two or three he's going to say you know the name speak for himself, the record speaks for itself. It's, that is, that's what it is. I mean, for me, I don't, I don't care on where I rank. At the end of the day, I'm going to be ranked at the top. When it's all setting down, I will be recognized as the greatest,

and that's what I'm after. What happens in between and really care. How are you envisioning the end? How does this actually play out on the 16th? I have to say, you know, Hamzad, and it looks incredible in training what I've seen and people talk about it and people are talking about oh he's training with this new coaching I'm very happy for him he did it five weeks out from the fight I've been doing this my whole life I've been doing fighting title fights for the past

I did it for five six years into the UFC defended my belt twice already the hard work that he's putting in, people going, oh, he's really training on. That's what I've been doing every single camp. Fight after fight after fight. That is, you know, that's not new to me. People are praising him for doing what is required. That's what I feel. And I'm really happy for him, and I think he's going to come in there more prepared than ever. You know, I know that feeling of fighting for your first title, I know he's going to come in there prepared. No doubt, I think, and like I said, he is a special fighter. He's incredibly. good. But, geez, I can't wait. This win for me is going to be, this is going to be

history. I am going out there and I'm going to shock the world once again. Like every other time and everybody said it's impossible, not this guy, not this guy. And I'm going to go out there and you're going to see the boogeyman. You're going to see him break. You're going to see him break in there. And then realize there's only one boogeyman. And then realize there's only one boogeyman. That's me. In the middleweight division, there can be only one boogeyman, and that will be me. Fucking hell. What a great promo. That was fantastic. By the way, congratulations, a slew of sponsors. I see all kinds of sponsors these days on your feet. And even this one, is this one with boss, by the way. What is this one right here? This is another one where you're looking dapper.

Oh, no, actually not. I mean, that's also one that play. Yes. Some shoes, but that was quite a while ago. Oh, my gosh. That was even before I was champion. oh wow okay well these are good looks i was champion nox absolutely i mean it's it's been amazing the knox the knox hydration has been it's a it's a company that uh you know yeah absolutely and i mean it's uh myself in ignites you know i'm not i'm not actively involved in

running knox at all i am i i am the owner of knox i'm a port owner but oh wow invested in this company. I invested in this company and they are doing incredibly well. We are now expanding to Australia. We are in South Africa expanding to Australia, looking to come to the United States. He's doing incredible. It's hydration drink and, you know, I can't get behind something that I don't believe in. I can't get behind anything that I wouldn't drink myself or taste shit. So when I got it, I had to get behind it. It's incredible. So, you know, I have incredible sponsors. You know, even, you know, Monster Energy is, you know, backing fighters from all over the world, the UFC.

Brands like that make it possible for us to follow this dream and, you know, one day, be able to send my kids to university to school and, you know, be able to do this full time. You know, any person that is involved in sponsoring, any company deserves so much praise because for them it's nothing. you know that's for them that's a tax deductible for that athlete it changes lives you know if you're at the top now you're getting all this you know there was a stage where a thousand dollars changed my life and for so many fighters and sports people that is the case so you know being involved by with any brand is is such a blessing and it's it's a privilege and then being able to go out there with knocks and you know get something out there with my name on it with Ignite, a massive, massive company that, you know, back this product and being able to

get through that, it's amazing. And I guess all this comes from, you know, people think, once you're champion, now you're a champion, no, this is all this stuff. It's the accumulation of all the hard work of over the years that, you know, success, draw success. And I'm really happy and blessed to have this life. Incredible. Curve after shave as well. Cool way sneakers, bet way in South Africa. You're killing it, my man. Most importantly, the reigning defending UFC middleweight champion. Really appreciate this. Drickis, thank you so much. Good luck to you. Be safe out there in Chicago.

Do your thing. Good luck with the weight cut, of course. And then, of course, on the 16th of August, UFC 319 main event, can't wait for at DDP versus Hansa Chamaev. Looking forward to it very much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. It was great. A pleasure. There he is. The great Drichus Duplese, kind enough to join us. We're going to be joined by Keishon Davis to break his silence in his very first interview since everything that transpired in June and Norfolk. Quick break. We'll be right back.

right after this. Don't go anywhere. All right. That was my conversation with Dr. Mike from last week. What a chat with DDP. Paul Heyman to come in about an hour's time. I'm hearing something in my ear. What am I hearing? I'm hearing something in my ear. Yeah, it's just like some sort of TV. Someone's talking about, I don't know what that is. I just unplugged it. We'll have to go old school on this one. Anyway, Paul Heyman coming up, very excited to

talk to our next guest because he has not done any interviews to the best of my knowledge. June 7th was supposed to be a massive homecoming for him. He was supposed to make his first title defense against Edwin de los Santos. Unfortunately, he missed way prior to that fight and the fight never actually happened. Then all kinds of craziness happened on fight night. It was supposed to be a huge night for him at the scope in Virginia, in Norfolk, to be exact.

He is from there. We've had him on the show before, and it was one of my favorite interviews of the year because he opened his heart, he opened his soul. And I said on that night at just 26, this guy is the future face of American boxing. Well, he is still the future face of American boxing, but nothing in life just goes like this. There's ups, there's downs. And right now, he's on the upswing. He's trying to make a bit of a comeback, if you will.

An unexpected one, but that's life. Curveballs are thrown your way. So without further ado, let us say hello to the businessman, the one and only Kishan Davis, who is kind enough to join us in studio here and now. My man, please welcome. It's great to see you again. How are you? How are you?

Thank you so much for coming in. I have to be honest. I got a DM from you on Sunday. Yeah. And I was like, here, let me fix this. And that's a sick shirt, by the way. Thank you. And I was like, is this really him?

because, like, your picture was black and I don't know if someone was messing with me, but it is apparently really you. Yeah, it's me, man, it's me. Okay, welcome, welcome back. Yes, sir. Thank you for having me. How are you doing? I'm doing good. Doing great, honestly. Taking day by day. Okay. When did you change

your picture to black, by the way? Probably like a month, two weeks ago, something like that. Okay. What does that represent? A comeback. Okay. Come back. Is that, like, clean slate? it's yeah basically it's um please like i could say like just just a restart the word i'm looking for just a restart okay um so let us start at maybe the beginning of this story

we spoke to you on fight week we spoke to you just a couple of days before the wayans yeah you're fighting edwin de los Santos talking about you being the future face of american boxing it's the homecoming it's your first title defense at home all the things we don't have to go over it right and then we get to the wayans right the next day it was thursday Yeah. And you miss weight by 4.3. Yeah. Let's start there.

Okay. Why did you miss weight? Undiscipline. Undiscipline for sure. Not being true to myself as well. What does that mean not being true to yourself? Just knowing that it's probably time to move up and just knowing how my body feeling. And just trying to basically sacrifice because I got another homecoming fight.

I wanted to defend my title in my hometown, so I just basically took a sacrifice to just to try to make the weight again, and, you know, it just didn't turn out that way. You know, I was telling my team during the Baranjic fight, I told my team, I said, look, it's my last time doing this, for real. But, you know, after you win, and they just, I'm a world champ now, so there's a lot of opportunities and all that stuff, they're like, man, just defend it one time, man, and you're going back home, and they just make it sound real good. So I'm like, all right, do it, whatever.

I can, I'm staying active, you know what I'm saying? I don't get, I don't shoot up and wait. So it's like, I should be straight, you know what I'm saying? I guess that was a wrong call. Okay, and so did you know, like at what point did you get the sense that this is not going to go well? Um, I can say during fight week, honestly, like, I'm like, damn, this, this weight coming off. It's not coming off like I usually do, you know what I'm saying? and just the day of the way ends, you know, I'm trying to sit in the bath and all that stuff.

The weight literally just was not coming off, and I'm skinny as hell, dehydrating and stuff. So I'm just like, man, it is what it is. I just can't get it off. Do you think that's because of decisions you made in the training camp, like meaning you didn't prepare yourself for the cut properly, or was it just something about that week? No, honestly, I got a nutritionist. I had the nutritionist ever since my stomach issues.

His name is Allen. And he's been with me ever since my stomach issues. So training camps, like as far as me eating my eating habits and all that stuff, I have great eating habits. You know what I'm saying? I don't really play about my eating. Especially now that I had them stomach issues because that's a real thing. You know, so I was disciplined throughout the all camp, like me eating and stuff like that.

And coming into Fight Week, me knowing that, I'm like, damn, this jump pushed me just coming right off because honestly, that was the most discipline I'd ever been in camp because I'm knowing that Baranchic Wayans was kind of hard so I'm like, alright, well I'm definitely going to be strict to my diet and camp this time around you know what I'm saying? So it wasn't the diet

at all for real. Okay, okay. So you get on the scale and you're over by 4.3. Obviously at that point it's not a surprise, right? Right. What did you think was going to happen? Did you think that the fight would proceed? What were you thinking at that point? Honestly, I fought myself

with this part right here, how I was like carrying it and um again i fought myself for it but i was super cocky arrogant thinking that he's just going to take the fight anyways because for one because i did it one point in time um with the limos fight and um and then just thinking that you know it's it's a big event and there's no way like he cannot fight you know what saying and he's a fighter like he's so i'm all that's going through my during that moment so I'm just thinking like he'll take it you know what saying um I didn't come overweight on purpose that's not what champions do you know that's not what I do you know what I'm saying I didn't like I'm gonna come in four pounds over the way on purpose like no hell no I ain't do that

but um I just thought that he still was going to take it you know what I'm saying and um for what I was told he still did want to take the fight but I guess his team told it wasn't really a good idea so people were reading your body language and all that stuff on the scale and they did say like, oh, it doesn't seem like you have remorse. It doesn't seem like you care. You're sort of confirming that here. Like you're sort of saying like you were cocky to the point where you're like, all right, I fucked up, but this fight is still going to go through?

No, I want to honestly say that, honestly. I was fucked up by that, John. I just, coming from where I come from, and this is just, people can take it for what it is. This is the honest truth. Coming from where I come from, I learned how to build a barrier to where I would never let, at the Olympics, when I lost gold medal, I learned how to put up a barrier to where people can never see me hurt. People can never see me down. And honestly, after I lost that, after I lost in the Olympics, that was the most hurt I ever was in the public eye. And I didn't

show it. You ain't seen that one, nothing, you know what I'm saying? So I learned how to build that shit up, honestly. And it backfired on me. Because when I was hearing all, like, the people saying, oh, he doesn't really care. I'm like, damn, why? There's people saying that because before I came to the scale, people don't know what I was doing for real. People don't know how I was really like feeling inside. But when I actually went back and had time to reflect on everything, I'm like, damn, Kishan, you did a great job. I'm not showing that shit. You know what I'm saying?

But that shit backfired on you, bro. Now people think you don't care when I really, that shit really fucked me up, bro, for real. Okay. And so when you found out that he wasn't taking the fight and now this event that you're. you're supposed to be headlining it's the homecoming all this stuff yeah how did that sit with you um i was hurt man i was i was out with not out but i was my family was in town and we were just i was just sitting around my family and stuff and they were just asking me like kishorese he's still going to fight he's going to fight i'm like i don't know my team working out with

his team again i'm still thinking like i think he going to take it though i think he's going to take it So when I got that call Now talk to him Of course And I hung up You could just feel my energy Switch So they're all looking at me like

I'm like Yeah it ain't going to happen They just like fuck It's hard reliving this shit for real But I'm sorry But I appreciate that whole day Like after I got that phone call Like

That he wasn't going to take the fight Something emu was just like Kishon you got to fucking you got to change bro you got to be better you got to do better

you got to be better something in me was just like boom it was just like boom like everything it hit me like all my wrong is all

everything that I thought that was right that I could have just did better it would just start hit me I'm like damn

now I got to be in front of my people I got to explain this and explain that when something supposed to be on a super high now I'm on a super low like just like that it's like fuck now we're here was there a point where it's like okay we're talking about money

there's a negotiation and like you could have they wanted you to give up more or something and you're like no did it ever get to that point as far as and and was there more that you could have done to salvage the fight or ultimately did they say no we don't want to fight someone who came in four point three over i think it was more so like it was his team it wasn't him because they asked for like a significant amount of money i'm talking like over a hundred and were you willing to do that yes okay i told my team i said at the end of the day is my fault and i got accept everything that comes with it whatever he asks for i'm willing to do because it's my fault it's not because it's in my city it's not because i'm main event and if i was on the undercar i would

be saying the same thing you know what i'm saying it's my fault so i got to do anything his power to make him feel comfortable fighting me. So I was willing to give up the bread and stuff like that, you know, but again, it wasn't on Delis Santos, like how shit be on me. It was on his team. So I guess his team was looking at how I was carrying shit. And it was like, man, f him, well, be good. I guess they probably put a little money in Delosanto's pocket into his next fight,

you know what I'm saying, and what about their business? But his team definitely, it was definitely his team. And I also won Citiers on Air. Wayans. It was Wayans when we was about to do I stare off and I missed weight. We was about to do I stare off and they wasn't trying to let us do our stare off so I'm like, I'm agitated. I'm like, what is y'all doing? I'm not going to do nothing to him

like just let us continue with, you know what I said? I was so confused and as I was stepping up to him I smacked it's so much going on that I didn't even realize what I was doing for real. That's why I whatever I smacked his promoting hand out of the way

like disrespectfully and i forgot his name but he's a well-known and i'm saying this to say i apologize to you sir because you old enough to be my father probably my grandfather right and nobody of that age should even be you know what i'm saying should even be going through that and i apologize to you sir for real and i honestly feel like it was that moment that made his promoter be like not forget this kid okay okay honestly that's that's my honest did you talk to edwin backstage or anything? Like, were there any conversations? I DMed him. He'd DM me back, but it wasn't in the midst of all this? No, it was after. Okay. What was that like?

We're skipping here, but just curious, yeah, yeah. I asked with his number because I just wanted to talk about certain things to get clarity, but honestly, I never called him because it was just like, F, it is what it is. Wait, so he responded and gave you his number. For sure. And then you never called him? Sure. So you asked them, but then didn't want to actually go through with it. For sure, because it was just like, I just didn't want to touch. on that situation anymore because it was it was just like man I'm just going to move on from

it okay you know what saying it was just like I'm at this point we all know um top ranked situation you know what saying we they they still figuring things out so it's like I can't even be like yo let's try to it's it's really nothing you know what I'm saying so it was like I was kind of I I was moving off emotion when I when I reached out to him you understand what I'm saying so as things just start settling in and I just let things just I'm like man the best thing to do is just just just move forward just trying to move forward the best as possible there's no point to just keep touching on what already happened during that fight week when they had the presser you and abdua mason had a bit of a back and forth right and now as a result of this

he ends up headlining in your hometown right that just add insult to injury at that point or at this point was so much shit going on like it didn't even matter because there was some sort of irony that the guy that you were talking about right and maybe somebody might say a little dismissive of like okay and now he's headlining that he got the opportunity Now it's his coming out party. Right. Did that annoy you? No, he deserved it.

He deserved it. And I also want to say that, in a way, I was wrong for doing that to Adula. At that end of the day, I'm 26. I'm well, I'm way older than him, honestly. I remember he was an amateurs and I was an Olympic team and he wanted to, I remember. I know Adula very well, you know what I'm saying? So I know his father, his brothers and all that. They're good people.

So, like, honestly, in a way, I was kind of wrong for doing that to Adula, honestly. and I don't think he really deserve a apology because I didn't know it's a sport and we all do this because of sport but it's a way I could have done it a little better but it was just like during that week I was just on fire for my own personal reasons and I just reacted out of

my emotions during that week and I could just went about it a better way when you say your own personal reasons what do you mean by that like what was going on? I mean everybody go through stuff but it's still like a way you still need to conduct yourself as a professional. And I feel like, honestly, during that whole week, I wasn't really doing that.

You know, it was a lot of things that, you know, I was doing backstage that wasn't, wasn't right. Like, also, I want to apologize to Tim Bradley while I'm up here. Tim Bradley, you know the dispute that we had and, um, hopefully one day we can address it and hopefully one day you could forgive me for it. But, um, I apologize to you too, Tim Bradley, because you old enough to be my father, you know what I'm saying? I came at you in a way I should never came out of you.

You know what I'm saying, and I apologize to you, too, Tim Brad. Okay, so I saw your Instagram live about five or so days ago, and you mentioned getting into an argument with someone in the fighter meeting. You didn't say who. I'm assuming it's Tim Bradley, who was a part of the ESPN broadcast. Yeah. What were you arguing about? It was a video I didn't like that he put out before the fight,

and he was talking, he was basically breaking down me and Delos, and he was saying a lot of things that I didn't agree with, you know what I'm saying? So it was an interview that before I even got to the fighters meeting that we had, And it was a state of boxing ESPN. Yeah. And, you know, we did the interview. I can't be cordial. But after the interview, I told Tim Bradley,

I'm on your ass when I see you. And then, you know, the fire means ain't no cameras. You know what I'm saying? So I felt like that was my opportunity to get on them. But it was wrong. For sure, it was wrong. And again, I apologize. You know what I'm saying?

It's a better way to, you know, handle things as a professional. Have you reached out to him? Nah, because I know I'm a senior, and I rather, like, something that, something to that makes me that happen, I didn't do this, you know what I'm saying. And so, correct me if my read on this is wrong, but it feels like you mentioned this, you know, you mentioned the way cut stuff, the promoter. That week, because it was the Kishon Davis show, the homecoming, if you will, was Kishon Davis feeling himself a little bit too much now? Yeah, it was a lot of emotions, feeling myself on a high. I'm a world champ. I'm in my hometown.

Very likable. Everybody loved me. Like, at that time, I didn't make no mistakes. You know what I'm saying? I'm the people's champ. You know what I'm saying? So it was a lot of mixed emotions, for real. And there was a lot of stuff that was just,

that shit came fast, bro. That Jones happened fast. And honestly, I'm not happy that all this stuff happened. But it was necessary. Because now I get to reflect on who I was becoming. And when that happened And I get to look back From training camp

From before training camp to training camp To fight a meeting To depress the way in to what happened It's like Key you You was going out of a rabbit hole You know what I'm saying You was going

You was becoming a person that If you would have kept this up And you would have kept winning That shit would have happened You would have became something that's That I would never I want my son to see You know what I'm saying

So what happened, I hate what happened happened, but what happened is definitely going to change me to a better person. If your brothers weren't fighting on that Saturday, excuse me, on that Friday, would you not have shown up? Is that the only reason why you showed up because it's rare for someone to fall through and then show up to the event because I would imagine it would hurt so much being there? Right. It was Saturday. Oh, it was Saturday. Excuse me, yeah. Yeah. My first, my first Saturday, suppose my first Saturday fight, but honestly, if, my brother's won't fight and nah I wanted to show up I was I didn't want to show up and they was they were still fighting because it was just a lot for me like it was it was a lot

like it took a lot for me to show up like for real like for real you thought about not showing up yeah but I knew that I was not going to do I wasn't I won't go to do that it was just like again I had to put on this facade right that none of this shit is bothering me you know What I'm saying? It's like, how the hell can I do this? Knowing Danwell, this is, now that I ain't fighting, this is severely bothering me. Like, my family had the, you know, we had the whole fight we playing with bowling events and dinner. So after I missed the wake, I went to my family dinner. And I made that announcement for everybody, you know, the Virginia Beach mayor was there. Norfolk mayor was there, like, everywhere I was there. And I made that announcement that wasn't fighting. And I was humble about it and stuff like that. And, um, That's when that shit really started hit me. Everybody was walking up to me. My family was like, damn, man, damn, damn. That shit hit me, bro.

So, like, later that night, I couldn't even really sleep. Like, I couldn't really, like, think for real. So now it's, like, damn, the fight. What I'm going to do? Like, for real, what I'm going to do, how I'm going to act. And it's crazy because I took one picture that night with my son. And I go back and look at that picture, and I just look at myself like, damn, he's on him.

He was fucked up. Like, you, you don't even look right. You don't look like yourself. And my son just sitting right here next to me, like, smiling. My man, I got to do better, man. I got to get right. I saw there was one video I think you were eating popcorn, and people are like, look at this guy.

He doesn't even care. Right. You know, he just seems like he doesn't have a care in the world. Obviously not fair, right? Because you clearly did care. Right. I mean. But everyone was judging your body language and your demeanor.

It's weird because literally like during that, During that right there, I didn't even know that shit was going to get blown that proportion. That was so weird to me, but during that moment, I'm eating the popcorn. I'm not paying no attention, but I love popcorn, low-key, like, I love popcorn. I do the same shit. It's like, I stuff my mouth with popcorn, no ditty. So my sister's like, man, you start eating that popcorn like that. You do it too much.

I'm like, man, I don't care. I don't care. So I'm looking up, I don't, because I'm knowing, like, she's saying, they say that because people probably record. They're like, people probably record. You do it. So I'm looking up, like, I don't care. I'm eating popcorn.

good so it's like okay people don't know that that situation happened but since y'all do know now okay cool that's that but in that moment before y'all didn't know why would that even matter because i'm eating popcorn in the day of the fight while i'm supposed to be fighting the shit is over i'm not fighting so why was that even the i don't get i really don't understand why was that such a big deal that i'm eating popcorn you to like feel like you were remorseful like you were down like you were depressed It's not saying you should have felt them. Right. I think people wanted to see you hurt.

Right. They wanted to see you feel bad. Right. Which is, why would you want to see somebody down, though? It's like, I could have shown that, damn, man, I care, I apologize, and I could have shown that, and I did the complete opposite, like, just, because I, it's a defense mechanism. I come from the hood, bro. I come from the, you feel me?

Yeah. So it's really a defense mechanism. So it's like, why would you want to see anybody down anyway? It's like, all right, all right, I messed up. I got to do better, but why would you want to see me down? That is, I don't get that because I won't want to see nobody down. Even when they did mess up, like when Devin had that fight in Ryan, it was like, everybody was kicking him while he was down. It was like, I don't remember me being one of them.

You know what I'm saying? It's like, I'm not going to kick somebody while they're down. You know what I'm saying? I don't want to see nobody down either. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, I'm sorry, but when I, I'm sorry. me, but when I, I'm not going to mess up to that magnitude again, but if I ever do mess up being, okay, I'm going to carry it a different way, but you still not going to see me down.

You feel me? So that's just still something I don't understand. And then we get to Nehira, Albright. What happened? A great fight between Kel and my brother. You know, after the fight, I decided to, um, go into his locker room. He beats your brother. Right? He beats my brother. Yeah, he beats my brother's split decision.

And after the fight, I just decided to go into his locker room. Now, everything that he's talking about that happened in the locker room is not true. Everything that he's saying that happened in the locker room is not true. He took that moment for me not being in his locker room. And he took that and ran with it and used that shit for what he used it for. and everything just got blown out of proportion. You tell us what happened. You walk in there thinking you're going to do what?

You have a history with him, right? You fought him. Right. So I don't have no problem with him. Okay, so you walk in there thinking you're going to do what? Man, I walk in there just not trying to fight this dude. I'm not trying to start. I'm not trying to start.

No artication. I'm just trying to, first of all, his locker was right next hour. So it wasn't like I had to. skip a skip across town to find him yeah he was right there i was going to you know say some few words and it wasn't going to be nothing crazy because the fight is over with you know what saying but for him to say that i put my hands on him and me my brother banked him and all that shit i just i was like what i was shocked for real i was throwing off but it was like man at the end of the day, I should never

walk in his locker room anyway. So he's just taking that shit and run with it, I bet, whatever. And everybody wanted to just keep, everybody wanted to agree that me and my brother banked him and I put my hands on him, I bet, whatever. Like, whatever, y'all go ahead, believe what I don't leave. When I come out and express certain

things, then they probably still going to believe his side. But this is the truth. Everything that happened in the locker room that he said happened, the shit didn't happen. So what happened? I walked in his room, and I I was gonna, of course, like, good fight, a lot of regular shit. But when we got in there, it was just, shit happened so fast.

Security started running there, start breaking shit up. I'm just like, damn. They're like, get out, get out, get out. I'm like, all right, all right, I get out. Because I ain't supposed to be in headways, right? All right, I get out. So then when we get out, we go into a locker room or whatever. That's that.

time go past my brother and stuff start getting stuff together we walk back out the locker room my brother's locker room and in the hallway we see some more commotion so my natural reaction I just started running to it this is this is it right right when I walk out the lot my brother's locker room I'm already that shit's already going down and that's when you see me running up like you basically just see me like looking everywhere like what's up what's so what's so and I see my mother of my child is like snapping this shit so I'm thinking somebody to put her hands on put their hands on her you know what I'm saying so now I'm kind of getting mad like like what now you know what I'm saying now I'm now I'm getting to that point now because now I feel like

y'all don't put I don't feel like y'all put my hand on my mother my child you know what saying and now's the second incident but I ain't I ain't really okay cool like I can see where people be like Keish on you wrong I ain't have to run up into it. I ain't have to put myself in a lot of those situations, honestly. But I just feel like people were just really blown out of proportion, for real. I didn't put my hands on nobody that night. So in the locker room, there were no punches thrown, there was nothing. Not hell, no.

No one touched anyone. No. Like really soon as we got in there, the security already was thinking that we was going to do something. How long were you actually in there for? Bro, we was in there for probably like 10 seconds, 50 seconds, like literally, bro. Because the interview that he did with Mark Kriegel on ESPN, made it seem like there was like a full-blown thing that happened in there. He saw that?

He's supposed to do that. Like, he's supposed to do that. I've seen clips and snips of it, but he's supposed to do that. And I said it, I think I said it on my live. I said, honestly, bro, I don't got no love loss for you, bro. Like, at the end of the day, you're trying to feed your family. You're trying to get another big fight at the end of the day. You know what I'm saying?

So if you felt like you had to do that to promote yourself to get your name, like, just name solidified in the box of the world so you get a big fight, all right? I put myself in that position for you to do that. But bro, I did not touch this man Like Your brother No, ain't nobody touched it The only people I got

Only people that touched it Was fucking security That was backing us up from each other Because they thinking that we was about to do something Wow, okay Because the story as you know Was that there was like a fight And punches were thrown

And all this stuff Right That's the story Okay And even back there in that scene It's kind of hard to like Understand what's going on But I think the jarring thing

Was We saw your your child child there, right? And so it was like, man, what's going on with Kishan? Why is he putting himself in this position now as a dad? Right. You know what I mean? Right. It just, it wasn't a good look, obviously. You would agree with that, right? Nah, not for sure, for sure. It wasn't no good look. And before I walked out the locker room, I'm thinking my son, like, in the car. I'm thinking he's going. I'm thinking, you know, he was taking the way he was going. It wasn't Until fucking

Didn't miss the all of that I'm looking I see a fucking stroller I'm like Get off me My son And that's when they let me go And let me go to him

But I'm thinking he was already Put up Because I told Yo y'all go ahead Whatever You feel what I'm saying Y'all go ahead I'm not

So in the midst of all that When I seen a fucking stroller I'm like bro Let me get to my son bro What happens after all this. Where do you go? First thing, first life, I really want the people to know that, of course, I'm human.

And by the way, let me take a step back. I meant, like, specifically, like, after that, I don't mean in life. We'll get to that. But, like, when that clip ends, where do you go? Do you go home? Do you leave the arena? Where did you? That's what I meant. Oh, yeah. We left for sure. Okay, that's when the night ends for you? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay, nothing else happened. There were no other issues. Yeah, no. Okay, okay, okay.

And I didn't want to cut you off there from that moment, but I'm just trying to get the whole story here. Yeah, for sure. And you kind of remain quiet, right? You kind of remain quiet. You put out a statement. Did anything happen as a result of all of this? You lost your belt, right?

Right, right. Is there any sort of suspension? Is there any sort of issue they have to deal with, or is it all clean? No. I'm not clean. I'm not clean at all, honestly. The state of Virginia is, you know,

looking into some things to see what they want to do with me. um because of what occurred and um the locker room incident yeah okay in the in the in the backstage yeah yeah incident you know what i'm saying and whatever it is what it is so we just got to wait on you know we had to send a letter end or whatever okay so we just wait you know you know their decision to see you know what consequences i guess they got to take forth whether it's a fine whether it's suspension whether whatever they want to do basically and we just got to wait and see what what do you think is going to happen like will this keep you out for a while or do you think you can fight again whenever you want to fight again?

Honest opinion? Yeah. I'm going to come back with my mentor is ready. Okay. That's my honest opinion. So if they cannot suspend me in top rank be like, oh, Kichon, you fight September. If I don't feel that I'm ready to take on the limelight again,

for my son's sake, I'm not fighting again, honestly. So I'm not putting my head to where what they're going to do fit me. Because at the end of the day, yes, this is about my career, but at the day, this is about my life, too, because I got to live after boxing. And I don't want to be boxing and not having my head on street at the end of the day. So it's going to take some time, you know what I'm saying, for me to, it's just like it took time for me to reflect and give y'all a straight-up answer and a straight-up apology. You know what I'm saying? So whatever the commission do, I don't know. I care for sure, you know what I'm saying?

I don't know, I care, but I don't know, but I've just not put my head towards that, because I just got to get Keish on together right now. How is your mind right now? Um, well, I feel like it speaks for itself. Honestly, I feel like it speaks for itself. I'm not going to sit here and just be like, yo, I'm this, you know what I'm that? You know what I'm saying? Like, y'all knew me when I came into the sport and y'all see me now.

And if you knew me, you should know that, man, Kishon got to just get himself back. You know what I'm saying? um that's just where i'm at right now you know for my for my son's sake you know what i'm saying so um just trying to you know follow god keep god close for sure like for sure for real this time and really really really really really listen to him for real are you are you talking to anyone or you getting help therapy anything like that um looking into it for sure looking into it But again, like, I don't want to make it like it's like a, I don't want to make this sound like an excuse and nothing like that.

No, no, I'm asking you the questions. You're not volunteering this information. But when you say my mind, I need to get my mind right, my head right. Yeah. That leads me to think, like, maybe you need a little bit of help. But we talked a lot about your history with mental health and whatnot, and you were so open about that. And so I don't know if that's something you wanted to revisit.

Yeah, I mean, see, right, the difference between when we were talking about that mental health stuff last time was that was like the past shit. So now it's like. Right now. You understand what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. So it's like, um, this shit is real. It's just, this shit is, this shit is very, very real.

And fresh. And not could have, exactly, not could have went off the track. Like, uh, something, something, I'm going through stuff and, you know, that's why I did. Like, nah, I don't want to, I don't even want it to come off that way. Like, I was wrong. And I'm grown enough to know, like, I need to be better for my son, for myself and, and for God. I'm, you can see it's hard for me, you know what I'm saying? But you see that I'm really like, being real and truthful and honest right now, you know what

saying? So I just got to, when I get back to boxing, just know that I am going to be a better Kishan, just know that. And so you were quiet, you kind of just disappeared, right? For sure. Like, where did you go? What did you do? For sure.

I was just literally spending time with my son every single day. Every single day, I ain't even miss a day until I went on vacation. but every single day for two months really I was just with my son day in day out because and my family as well because those are people that's really going to love me through thick and then do whatever you know what I'm saying so I'll just spend the time with family you know I just came back from from Mexico on the trip just trying to really reset you know what I'm saying and I haven't even having me even posting nothing like I'm posting by my trip I could post by my son I can be posed by a lot of stuff that I've been doing but I got to fall back from the media

I got to fall back from the limelight because I can't really take that shit right now. Right, right. And so the decision, like you did the Instagram live and then, and I hear you are. I think this is your first interview, right? Yep. Why did you feel like now was the right time to sort of reemerge?

Talking to God, honestly, listening. Just keep trying to do the right things. I thought I got on live and I opened it up. And I got on my own platform and opened up a little bit, it's like, all right, Kishon. It's like, I felt like something in me, it was like, all right, Kishuan. Now let's take it a step further. You know what

saying? So for me, it was a post on my story, which it was just so sweet. And everybody was like, oh, I'm proud of you for it. And a lot of the people was like, nah, like you got to really own up to it. But people don't know, like, I'm taking baby steps into this shit. You know what I'm saying? So I made it like a little story post, boom. My next step was live. Boom. My third step, here. Okay. Who has helped you? I saw Floyd show support publicly.

He did? Yeah. Are you surprised by that? No. Okay. No, because Floyd really fuck with me. Okay. Shouts out to Floyd, though.

That's big. Shouts out with Floyd, because I didn't know you did that, Floyd. So I fuck with you. You already know with the count. Who surprised me? Yes. Was Tia Fimo Lopez. Okay.

Tio Fimo, I think I've seen this like two days or day after the situation. He said something like, everybody coming down on Kishon right now, what we need to do is get around him because you can see that he's going through something. And how I know he's going through something is because I've been through it. And honestly, when he was going through it, I was telling my team, I was telling my team that, man, Tio is vulnerable right now and he's he's not mentally there. He's he's not crazy. He's just something is wrong with him and he needs serious help. So for him, and I was telling my team that, so for him to say that about me at that

all this shit, I was talking to him, I was just like, wow, I don't even want to call this man out no more. I respect him so much as a person after he done, at that everybody. like yeah you feel me yeah it was like it was him that did that shit it's the hell it's real uh did did did he reach out to you no he kept a gangster okay okay he didn't reach out he kept a gangster he just put it on the media like so-and-so and i ain't reach out to him you know what I'm saying but he gonna he hopefully he watches this sure sure sure shouts out to you bro like

you back of my good side bro you know what I'm saying like not for real shouts out to you bro like that shit that video you put out that shit meant so much much to me, bro. I'm not even going to lie. That shit meant so much to me, bro, because it was somebody I at least expected to say the real shit that I needed to hear. It's like, I almost feel like, damn, God is real. What about top rank? What about them? Did you feel like they had your back throughout all this? Do you feel like they have your back throughout all this? Yeah, I mean, top rank not coming down on me. Like, they're not saying like, I spoke to them, you know what I'm saying? They're not saying no weird shit.

They're not saying a weird shit, or they're not, you know, like, I was just talking to one in the top ranked members before I came into here, you know what I'm saying? So they still support me, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's just an unfortunate situation, you know, for a promotion. Like, it's hard to kind of promote me now. Right, right, right. You know what I'm saying? It's kind of like, it's up to me to change, you know what I'm saying, and get back on track. What do you make of their situation? Like, you alluded to it earlier, they don't have a home as of right now, right? Yeah. Does that, as a top-ranked fighter, are you worried about this or do you think either figure it out and everything will be okay? I'm be real with you. Honestly, if I would, I mean, I would be worried about it if I was hurting. But thank God, I saved my money and I invest, bro, you know, real estate and I got like, I love residual income.

So I got trucks on the road that's just giving me money, not giving me money, but making me money. weekly, you know what I'm saying, so I can keep my bills up to par and I can go on fucking vacations, you know what I'm saying? So if it wasn't for me being smart, then yes, I would be scared. Like, when my next paycheck going to be? You know what I'm saying? But I lived and I learned one time. I was fighting Padraza and I was literally, my taxes fuck me up and I was literally like negative dollars in, fighting Padraza. And that was like the biggest fight in my life and I had to really win. I always told myself, I said, Kishon, you never going to be. get to a point where you're not getting nothing like nothing like you got to always be making

something i don't care if it's i don't care what it is at least have something outside the box that can at least pay your bills you know what i'm saying so you can stay afloat you know what i saying so i learned out the projaza fight and um thank god i did i saw a picture of uh i believe it was you and your brothers dv3 and eddie herne yeah and i wasn't sure if there was some sort of like message being sent there what was going on there nah bro edy herne's jen you and He generally, like, as a fighter, like, he generally likes me, bro. Honestly, like, he generally likes me. And he know that I'm a great fighter.

He understand that people make mistakes. And I know that he understand because of how he was talking to him. And he was just like, man, just keep back on track. Man, I want to see you prevail. I'm going to see you this. And for the first time since I was pro not messing with him, that he did not bring up his fighter. He was literally just saying, Kishon, get back on track, man. Just do this and do that.

And a shout out to Eddie Hurons, too. you know what I'm saying? Shout out to Eddie Hurons because any time asking some tickets he's giving it to me at my lowest right now he gave me great advice you know what I'm saying

so shouts out to Eddie Hurons like it's a lot of people that I didn't expect that still support me like you it's like damn I hope Ariel because I remember when we

I'm like this dude like you cool you know what I'm saying and honestly if I just need people like you with this platform You know what I'm saying? So I'm just like, damn out, I hope I can go on this man platform again and just maybe one day we can just still chop it up again. So when I see you at the fight, right, and he will show me that love, I'm like, I knew I knew I fought with you.

Of course, of course. Shouts out, Ariel, man. For real, man, for real. No, of course. And I appreciate that. And that's why I was so excited. I wanted to give you a little bit of space. Right.

But I was so excited. I mean, Top Rank will know that I asked if it was appropriate to reach out to you and to talk to you like in the immediate aftermath and they said give him some space. so I wanted to do that. But I was checking in way back then. As you know on the flip side, like you know how fans are, they're fickle. So did you feel that? Did you feel like, oh, man,

because you were on such a high post-MSG, you were on such a high going into this fight, and we talked about Michael Vick and AI, and it was like you couldn't miss. Did you feel people jumping off the bandwagon? Did you pay attention to any of that? And if so, did that affect you in any kind of way? That's the crazy part.

As far as like the celebrities in the town, like the Michael Vicks and the AI, they text my phone. They reached out to me like, Kishan, we still behind you, man. We're going to just get this right. We can help you get this right. If you need anything, both of them, AI and Michael Vick. It wasn't, like, honestly, no really, like, celebrities was like, ah, this man tripping. That mess with me. It was really just my people, like Norfolk in the boxing world.

But, like, my people in Norfolk were just like, all night. this nigga ain't right and it was you felt that a lot of oh I know that and a lot of the reason was because of the son's it my son situation that was so on so forth it wasn't the weight it wasn't it was it was it was that last thing the mail it was the way it was all that but it was just like oh no this nigga ain't right yeah yeah that really it was like damn okay okay whatever I got a I got to bite the bullet you know what saying but also they was waiting for apology they just wanted a response and honestly to my town to know like y'all know how much i love y'all y'all know how much i put i put y'all on the pedal stool so for me to

to act out that way on the same week that the state and the city gave me a award in a week they gave me that so now my week i got remember is that it's like that shit is wrong i was wrong all the kids watching this super wrong never act off emotion if you feel like you can't do something just don't do it. Don't force yourself to do anything because it's not worth it in the end. You know what I'm saying? Whether you accomplish it or not, you're not even going to feel right. You know what I'm saying? So in terms of Norfolk, man, I apologize for putting us on that pedal steward and making us look so fucking bad. Shit is not right. It's not right at all. And no, if I really, I really want y'all to know, like, I really do genuinely care. You know what I'm saying? I was in Norfolk since the situation had happened. And a lot of people were just coming to me in positive.

It was just like, get back or people saying, whatever, accept your wrongs or just whatever they were saying, but it was just all positive shit still, you know what I'm saying? But I still can feel like people not really like all the way gravitating to me, you know what I'm saying, and I respect that. But I just want to know if there to know, like, and the boxing word, you know, like, genuinely sorry, you know what I'm saying? When I do come back to boxing, I don't know, so don't ask me. but when I do come back to the box and Kishon is going to be a better person, trust me. Well done. You say when I do come back,

not if I do come back. Right. So you will come back at some point. Yeah, at some point. Okay, because in the live, you were sort of hinting and maybe I just retire and all this stuff. That's not a real thing, right?

I was just bullshit. I was just bullshit. I thought people was going to catch that in the live. Like, he's just bushing. He ain't really retiring. No, you never know. So you will fight again. I will fight again.

I will fight. But they have no idea. be in a year, it could be in two, it could be in six months? Like a year. Okay. You need time. I need some time. Are you training? No.

Have you trained since then? I'm going to Colorado, though. Okay. I'm training in Colorado. Olympic Training Center? No, but. Oh, sick. Okay, wow.

For this fight. Beforehand. Yeah, me and Shakur are going to be out there. You know, like, come on there, like, Schucoe, my brother. Of course. He can be out there training this shit and DB3 for show. Okay. For sure, you got push,

you got to push, big bro. Have you been in the gym since the fight day? No. Oh, wow. You haven't thrown a punch. No. Wow.

Does that affect you? Because, like, you know, speaking of mental health, being active, it helps. Nah, it don't really affect me because, like, you know, I still go on my runs and shit like that.

Okay. You're still working out? As far as me, like, punching the bag and all that, it's going to get me back in that zone that I ain't ready for. I don't want that. Yeah, I don't want that.

But me going out of Colorado and training alongside Bud, but if he training to get him, ready, you know what I'm saying? So my mindset is going to be like, yo, you got to be Canello, you got to be Canello. You know what I'm saying? I want you to be Canello so bad. Everybody wants you to be Canello so bad. You know what I'm saying? So that's kind of like different rather than me going to the gym myself and trying to, you know what I'm saying? Is this a shock to you or did you see this coming? Meaning post-MSG, did you feel like something was on the, like there

was a volcano that was about to erupt or is all this so unexpected? Nah, I ain't, um, Michelle, I felt it. there were things that you that you were doing that were leading to this I had a phone I had to talk with Beaumack my advisor and my sister

just going through it and I'm just like man F this shit man I'm done I'm done stop telling me to do stuff I'm done like I'm done for boxing I'm

leave me I'm cussing them out but I'm just really venting and I'm just letting them know how I'm just so fucking done. I'm worn out. I'm through. Like, leave me to cologne. You know what I'm saying? I just need to get myself together.

And Beaumont, I was just like, young fellow, do what you need to do to get back. I'm going to be here when you, when you're ready. And my advisor followed and my sister followed. You know what I'm saying? And honestly, I was saying that shit during camp for real. I was saying that shit during camp for real. Like, I need a break. Like, since 2021.

Since the Olympics, I mean, nonstop, nonstop, five years, just nonstop, fight after fight, camp at the camp, having a baby, right back in camp to fight limos, then world title, like, this shit was just nonstop, nonstop, nonstop, and I'm getting bigger at each fight, you know what I'm saying? So when I finally reached that pinnacle, the world title, it was like, boom, I did it, but everything that was coming to me, it was like, oh damn, this is different. So I guess that's what, like I said That's what probably was really started getting to my head Like yeah I did do that

So I deserve that so yeah do that Yeah I deserve that yeah so do that It was almost like a I deserve it I worked so hard to get here I work so hard to get here So y'all need to make everything else happen Period

You know what I'm saying And that's not right That's not right at all You know what I'm saying Like just because I work so hard to get here That don't me these motherfuckers Have to work for you neither You know what I'm saying

It's like I was just had the wrong mentality. And, again, like, that situation definitely just got me just thinking different about everything, you know. What about your brothers? They're going to keep going, right? They're going to keep fighting. Are you going to help them out? Are you going to be a part of their journey while you're taking this sabbatical, if you will? Yeah, for sure.

Keon, he fight August 30th. He fought August 30th, you know what I'm saying? You know, Keon Davis. Will you be there? But sure. Okay, okay. So you're not just going to disappear. No, here.

Not with this a core fight? Yeah, yeah. No, I know, but, like, you know, I don't know if it's too close. I don't know, you know. Yeah, no, I'm going to be at my brother, my brother fight for sure. And Kelvin, he's on the same shit I'm on, like, he ain't come back to he ready. Okay. Excuse me, you know what I'm saying?

So, Keion right now, Keon Davis, he's the one that's going to be holding it down for DB3. Okay. And as fate would have it, Abdul is fighting for your now vacant title, right? Right. It's Sam Noakes. Right. You think he wins? I got to do more.

studying on sam okay okay i think i watched like one fight and i was like all right he got some tweaks in him but i know he hit hard yeah i could just you as a fighter you just know like he can punch you know what i'm saying but skillfully a duel is definitely younger he's skillfully i'm i may say younger he's better skillfully but skills don't always win fights right you know what saying physically is sam all the way skillfully is it's a dude Dula all the way. Again, I got to watch more tape on Sam, because I'm not just going to be like, yo, Sam going to beat him.

You know what I'm saying? But at the same time, I'm not really going to be like, yo, a Dula going to beat Sam. At this point, do you feel like people will only start to believe that, you know, the businessman, right? And that's kind of wild, too, because you want to be professional when you have that name, right? And a lot of the things that happen, one might say weren't exactly that. do you feel like you'll only truly be able to win everyone back once you fight once you make wait once you have another great performance or do you think people are going to believe this

believe you i certainly do but you know the public is a different beast how do you feel about that maybe you don't even care i'm following god like seriously following god i'm not up here trying to win nobody over i'm not up here down talking nobody I'm up here saying that I'm wrong and when I come at the boxing I'm gonna be a better person because of God honestly That's a great answer

That's a great answer Is there anything that we didn't talk about That you feel like you want to get off your chest And I really do appreciate you coming in And coming on this show It means a lot But I want to give you that opportunity Just in case

So thank you Yeah man I reached out to Ariel man And so just to, you know, do this right here. You know, I feel like it was the right thing to do. I feel like the people deserve to hear from me, you know. So that's why I reached out to him so the people can hear from me. So I just hope the people can accept me for that. You know what I'm saying?

But I'm going to say the same thing I said last time when you asked me this question. Mental health is real. Y'all see me at my World Championship status up here when I was saying that, and now y'all see me at my lowest, and I'm saying the same thing. mental health is real check on your brothers check on your sisters stop just asking this

dumb ass question are you good just cut that shit out have conversations real conversations about about stuff you know what saying

because you don't know what people is thinking bro like you don't know what people thinking bro for real you know what I'm saying

and outside of what people is going through you know what I'm saying so just realize check on your people like mental health is real And I feel like in this generation right now, like, we're going through it the most in this generation. For some reason, I don't know, but we're going through it the most.

You know what I'm saying? I apologize to anybody that I hurt leaning up to camp. I apologize to everybody I hurt during fight week after the fight. I apologize to anybody that I missed. You know what I'm saying? And also, I appreciate everybody that's still reaching out to me checking on me as far as my family, Chantelle, Shanice, Juan today. Kevin Keon, you know, the whole entire DB3, you know. Shit, shouts out Quisha.

Shit, shouts out Michael Vick, AI, shoot. Shouts out Floyd. Shouts out Tiafima Lopez. Shoot, shouts out anybody else that I'm probably missing, you know what I'm saying? Shouts out my whole family, everybody has supported me, man. I appreciate y'all. Again, when I come out of the box, I am going to be a better person because of God. and um right now i i really feel like if you know if he wasn't following before i think this is

probably a perfect time to start following me honestly love it well we we didn't leave we didn't jump off the bandwidth we still believe people go through ups and downs people have highs and lows and uh you know it's in these moments right the the they say the come back greater than the setback all this stuff it's in these moments where you find out who people are people are gonna fuck up um and it wasn't a great time for you and i can't imagine what you were going through and I can't imagine what the aftermath was like but to come out here and not make any excuses and to just look into the camera and apologize to everyone says a lot about who you are so I would say you're a role model for doing that I would say you're someone that people should look

up to and you'll be back and this will be a nice you know a nice story to tell it'll be a good footnote into your story but it's not going to define who you are as a person that's what I truly believe thank you appreciate you kishan davis he's taking a break but he'll be back so Don't jump off that bandwagon. Don't sell that stock just yet. Appreciate him coming in. The man can't thank him enough. We'll take a quick break.

We'll be back with Paul Heyman. Do not go anywhere. All right. Back on the program. That was a segment from the crack on Friday. What about Kishan Davis? What a character. What a date it's been.

I mean, golly, what a day it's been. We started the day doing the impulsive podcast. We moved along to Keith Chardine, who looked into my soul. Let me fix this right here. Yeah. All better now. We did a little on the nose. Drickest Duplessi was here, and it was a lovely chat, dare I say.

And then we had Kishon speaking from the heart. That was riveting stuff, and I really appreciate him doing that. He flew in this morning, and he's flying back. to Virginia tonight. So, yeah, not something that often happens where someone's going to come in and want to speak to the world, his audience, our audience on our platform, which we really, really appreciate and I hope it was worth his while. In a matter of moments, I've been doing this job for a very long time now.

I've been doing this job, essentially, I would like to say since 2001 when I first did a show for WERW Radio in Syracuse, WERW.SYR.org.edu. I hosted a show called the main event, and I talked about MMA Pro Wrestling and Boxing on that program, Combat Sports Show. Sound familiar, and obviously there's been all kinds of chapters, and I've been very lucky to meet a lot of really interesting people. I'm not just saying this because he's about to walk into the studio. There's been a lot of interesting people. I don't think there has been someone who has been more interesting, more of a pleasure. And dare I say, greater to me, a lot of things behind the scenes, a lot of chats, a lot of advice, stuff that I'll never forget. I've talked about

being backstage that one time in Montreal and getting to watch him do his thing and how kind he was just stuff that I will truly, truly never forget. The last time I had a sit down with him was in November of 2021, right before Survivor Series in Barclays. We did a quick one at the Staples Center, or it was crypto maybe at that point. We did a quick one after the announcement that essentially TKO was being formed. That was a quick one. The last time he was in studio was the day Daniel Cormier and John Jones had their melee in the lobby of the MGM Grand. It's been that long. And so it is long overdue.

And what a day to have this chat. What a time to have this chat. Let me just fix this right here. What a time to have this chat with the announcement of WW and ESPN coming together and all the things that happened this past weekend at SummerSlam. And so, ladies and gentlemen, please say hello to the one and only, the inimitable. The Oracle, Paul Heyman. Golly, here he is.

You heard it? I wanted to make sure you heard it. Oh, I heard it. How are you, sir? Can we hug? Oh, my God. You didn't know we got a beat, but I got to hug you out. No, no, but it's just so good to see him.

Because, you know, it doesn't happen often. No, nor should it. We're in headsets, we don't do headsets. We don't do headsets here. Oh, I like that. This isn't a rinky-dink podcast. We are live, though, so I just want to make sure you're comfortable with live. I have a few years behind me on doing live.

How are you, Paul? I'm okay, you know, I'm doing all right. You're a blessed man. I am a blessed man. That's usually the answer. Can we at least do it right, though? Yes, wait, wait, wait. Make sure you're talking.

Yes. Talking to the microphone. Yes, yes, yes. Ladies and gentlemen, my name is Paul Heyman. Not the screechy. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. You know, the nose over here. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

I got it. Oh, my God. What an honor. That's like having, like, MJ shoot a free throw in your home gym. Indeed. Indeed. I'm supposed to lean forward right into the microphone. Listen, you know.

If I had headsets on and you could, your producer could tell me. Make love. Lean forward. Make love to. Make love to the microphone. No, I want to see a guy in a nice suit like this wearing headphones. No, I concur with your assistance. Right, right, right.

Yes, sir. Ghaly, there's so much to discuss. Thank you so much for doing this. You know, I only have like three minutes, right? No, I know. I know. Then I got to go. Car wash interview.

But thank you. Yes. It's been a point. pleasure. Did you know that you have been on this program twice before in studio? Yes. The second time, the last time, it's like a

deposition. No, no, no. The second time, the last time was the day John Jones and Daniel Cormier got into their fracas in the lobby of the MGM Grand. Yes. So very memorable stuff. You were promoting your DVD that was coming out. Ladies and gentlemen. Yes. The first

time was almost exactly 15 years to the day. August 16th, 2010. Almost exactly 15 years to the day. Everyone remembers it because it was a great chat. It was a long chat. I think it was an hour and a half or so. I remember it because you brought this massive jug of coffee right over there. You brought a massive jug of coffee. There's you and I. August 16th, 2010. But Paul, did you know this? Did you know that it happened in this building on this floor? This chat. in this building on this floor why because that was for aOL and yahoo bought aOL a a couple years ago when i came back and did this deal with uncrowned and yahoo i came here and the address sounded familiar

and the floor sounded familiar and so then i went into my emails and i typed it in and there were emails from 2010-20 2009 when i started my show the m-m-a hour where i was inviting people to come to this building on this floor ninth floor here in new york city this exact building that chat 15 years ago, almost to the day this building, this floor, because when Yahoo bought AOL, they revamped the whole floor and took it over. And did a much, I mean, it's a much nicer, yes. No knock on AOL.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But my God, Yahoo's done some job with this thing. It's nice, right? Oh, yeah, very. Isn't that crazy? blew me away. You were impressed. Oh, very. Thank you. Well, you guys need to come on more often when you're around. Invite me more. Yes, that is true. But that was a great one. That was, that was, and you were at a different time in your life. Oh, yeah. I'd say so. Who was that guy?

Oh Guy that didn't shave before he came on your podcast, right? That was just, that was a guy in the middle of a whole bunch of different shit that he's doing today. I was out too. I mean, I was out as out could be at the time. No sign of coming back, it seemed. Oh, no. I mean, when Brock came back, it's funny how, what's old is new again, you know.

Brock came back in 2012. And, you know, you want to come with me? I had no desire to go back, you know. And it wasn't until a couple of things happened. And then, you know, they made me an offer I couldn't refuse. And I went back, but, and I've been back since. Sure. But yeah, I know.

At that moment in my life, I had absolutely, well, at that moment, it was when I had talked for a while, T&A had made their approach. And then I, I said, give me the Dana White deal where there's nothing to talk about, you know, because I wasn't going to get back in unless, you know, I had an ownership stake in it and had complete control, especially of that product at that time. And today's 15 years later, life is much different. Would you have been at peace if you never came back?

Sure. You would have been okay with that? Yeah, I would have done other things. I was on a journey to do other things at the time. Like what? Looking for Larry, marketing stuff? Well, you know, it's funny. I don't know if they have the clip yet.

I'm sure you'll, do you have, like, any... I got nothing. I just... Are they... They're here. What, do you want me to talk to the guys? I actually unplugged it because I just wanted to be fully locked in on you.

You gave them something? Yeah, you know, it's funny that you mentioned, you know, I co-founded an agency in New York City. Yes. You know, looking for our agency. And when you came to the office, you were probably at our offices more than I was, because I think I went twice in my...

The entire seven years that we had it at a long island. City, which is like the new Burbank, you know, here. And we switched out of there, and we're partnering now with MCM studios here in New York, which is a huge studios. They do all sorts of movie post-production. They, it's where hot ones, you know, the thing with we eat the spicy food and get sick in front of everybody and make it a little yourself.

They film hot ones there. It's like, it's like a really innovative, progressive place. And I deserve no credit for it. Mitchell Stewart, my production partner, put the deal together. And today was my first day that I got to see our new studios in offices. So I brought my son, you know, Jacob, the legend. Hopefully. Yes, legend in the making.

It's just so, because someone's going to have to support me in my old age, because I plan on spending everything before I get there. And, or in case you haven't heard, I'm really no good with money. So we went there and it just blew me away. I actually can honestly brag. I think we have the most cutting edge AI that is available in the marketplace today. Really? Yeah.

To be used for what? Movies, commercials, viral content. We have it. We can do it. We can produce it. We can post-produce it. We can manufacture it. We can make it happen just as an offering.

As an agency, as a firm, as a production house, as a post-production house, we we have the, um, the capability of doing AI better than anybody else out there today. Wow. And, and again, I, I deserve no credit for this. I'm, I'm literally walking in the doors today going, whoa, this is us. This is ours. Whoa. You know, so could not believe it.

How many people work for looking for Larry now? Well, because of this partnership now, I, I, I would dare say we're now at about 30 people. Yeah, you know. That's incredible. It just, it, again, I, I'm, I'm going to put, I'll put all false humility aside. It's, uh, it's, it's, it's pretty overwhelming, you know, just Mitchell Stewart and, and, and my son has started working and making suggestions about the agency. And, and, and this was the move. This was, uh, this was really the move to make and just in, getting an AI, getting ahead of the curve instead of trying to catch up to everybody else, bringing a studio back to Midtown Manhattan. and getting involved in the movie business, you know.

And that, so it is, what would I have done if I didn't come back in 2012? I would have concentrated on the agency, which I was doing then. Back then, you know, we were doing EA sports. We did the EA sports of the campaign for the EA sports, MMA game with Nick Diaz and Kung Lee and Fabrito Verdoom. Cyborg, maybe. Was she in it? No, I wanted to do, I wanted to do a whole thing about Cyborg being the best pound

pound fighter in MMA because no one had ever named a female as the best pound pound fighter and I thought that would be real innovative different you know different commercial catch people's attention um we did for doom we did Nick uh Gilbert Melendez right right right you know so uh so we were rolling in that but I probably would have uh by within another year or two I would have written produced directed my first movie I was getting into that I have some scripts in my desk that we're just brushing off now, and I'm rewriting that. Oh, wow.

Dip into that, dip into that opportunity as well, especially now that we're on Netflix and we have so much attention on us. But what would I have done? Probably that, you know, and who knows what else I would have done? I mean, if the New York Yankees weren't smart enough to hire me after I was here in 2010, and as an Oracle predicted their future, you know, I had the prophecy of where the Yankees were going long before Brian Kemp. did. Clearly. So, you know, if they weren't smart enough, if they wouldn't not have been smart

enough to offer me a job, then, you know, I don't know, maybe I've gone to the Mets or something. I would have been involved. I mean, I would have been involved somehow in New York, and then I would have been involved somehow on a global basis and stuff like, like films or feeding, you know, content to streaming services or creating television shows and stuff like that. But I'd say it's all worked out. I have absolutely no complaint. I'm home. You know, it became home again.

When did it become home? I have to say, they made me feel very welcome my first day back in. Wow. You know, it was, I was real cautious walking back in the door. I was like, oh, how's this going to work out? Because it always ended up volatile on my way out the door. And it hasn't been since 2012, you know. I was welcome back with open arms and I've been made to feel at home since.

I have really no complaints about it. So what's interesting to me is obviously we have known over the years that you've worked on the creative side. Sometimes you weren't on TV, sometimes you were on TV. But, you know, I had the great pleasure, and I hope you don't mind me talking about this. That weekend in Montreal, Elimination Chamber, I believe it was 2023. I still say to the day it's one of the best weekends of my life. It was, I got to live out of fantasy. I got to see what was really going on behind the scenes.

And to me, the best part was you. The way you treated me, the way you just said, like, stick with me, kid, and watch. It was a dream. It was getting to watch a brilliant human being, Picasso, whatever you want to say, at work. And just to see all the things you were doing, like we see you for 20 minutes on TV or whatever, great. But to see how involved you were in so many things that I guess we would never know have anything to do with you was so fascinating. to me. And so at this juncture, how involved are you with everything that doesn't really have to do with you, so to speak? Do you know what I mean? Like the on-air stuff is the on-air stuff, but I could see

maybe you're not an official creative team member, but like you are doing so much back there. You're not just a talent showing up clocking in and clocking out. I'm the old guy now. And you know, when Roman Raines bestowed the name the wise man on me, number one, that was a real tribute. to Lou Albano, Freddie Blassie, and Ernie Roth, the Grand Wizard, because they had a lock on Vince McMahon's promotion in terms of being the heel managers. And they were known as the Three Wise Men of the East. And no one could get in here.

No one. Not Bobby Heenan, not Jimmy Hart, not Sir Oliver Humperdink, not Gary Hart, and nobody. Nobody could get in to WWWF, WWF, WWE, because it was a lock by the three wise men of the East. So in calling me the wise man, which means I inherited the mantle from them, that was a great honor inside of the business.

And in terms of behind the scenes, it's a name I took seriously because a lot of people will come to me because I'm the old guy now, because I've survived so many regimes. I worked for Vince McMahon senior as a photographer. And so this is now the third or fourth generation of a regime in this company that I've worked for

in one capacity or another. So how much do, am I involved? You know the older expression, you know, I serve at the pleasure of, you know, and in my case it will be, I serve at the pleasure of the chief creative officer, Paul Levick. As much or as little as I'm needed on a particular day. There are some days I'm not needed that much. Everything is there and everything's in place and everybody has what they're going

to do and they know what in their head and they don't need a lot of help. And there are other days where a lot of talents need a lot of direction or a lot of motivation or a lot of inspiration or a lot of understanding about their performance, whether it is understanding what's on a script or understanding that it's only on a script as a placeholder and it's not what you say but how you say it because it's far less scripted now word for word fact it's not scripted word for word the words are there but it's all about what are we selling what's the what's the emotion involved so that's what I'm there to teach the young talent and um whether I mean I braun break and I are on camera together because I was working so closely with him behind the scenes.

Because I truly believe that's the future of our company. That's a guaranteed WrestleMania main eventor multiple times in the future. Jacob Fatu, a guaranteed WrestleMania main eventor multiple times in the future. I can say the same thing, Ria Ripley, a guaranteed WrestleMania main eventor multiple times in the future. we find the right story and the right opponent for her in that capacity. And these are people I love working with. And I get to work with everybody else, too. If anybody comes up to me, I don't turn them down.

I'm happy to work with the talent. I'm happy to work with talent that sits there and you see their eyes open for the first time realizing, I don't have to say these exact words. I can put this in my own words. It's all about the emotion that I convey and the connection that I can make with the audience. Is there a group now that you consistently work with? Well, certainly, Braun Breaker and Bronson Reed. Sure.

There's not a lot that I need to teach Seth Rollins. We just get to collaborate far closer than we ever have in the past. There's a lot to learn from Seth Rollins as well. You know, the entire roster. Okay. So anyone could just come up to you and say like... Oh, absolutely. Okay.

Oh, there's no one I, like there's no one that I'm going to look at and say, I'm sorry, I have no time for you. I'll make time for them. Do they take advantage of this? Of course they do. Okay. They are smart enough, the younger ones. Sure. Okay.

Sure. I'm the old guy. I know, but maybe, you know, with being the old guy and with being a young person, sometimes you don't recognize who you have at your disposal. Well, I'm still on TV in a very high position and they sit there and go, how can I, how can I get that spot? Okay. So for nothing else, they want to talk to me to understand. how to get in with us and run a program with us

or a storyline with us so that oh okay well all of a sudden now they work with Seth Rollins and Braun Breaker and Bronson Reed and doing promos with Paul Heyman I didn't notice while watching WW Unreal which I want to ask you specifically back

but I saw a couple times like you're in the meetings the creative meetings I saw Not all that. So how does that work? I'm not on the weekly basis. Okay so how does that work? Because there were times I saw you and times I didn't see you Yeah Long term meetings I'm in. Okay. So when we start talking about next year's WrestleMania or the year after WrestleMania or the year after

that's WrestleMania or next year's Royal Rumble or Elimination Chamber or this year's Survivor Series. When we start planning things out, I go to those meetings. Okay. I don't, I'm not exposed to the weekly grind like the other writers who deserve a ton of credit. They're exposed to that weekly grind. I'm not exposed to that. You don't want that.

No. Okay. No. By the way, you mentioned next year's WrestleMania, the year after, are we really talking

two, three years down the line? Oh, with me, you are? In these meetings? Are there meetings about two, three years down the line?

If I'm in the meetings, it's going to be a subject, I'm going to bring it up. Wow. Let's look at this, you know, on a strictly business level. You couldn't

pull me away from Roman Raines's coat tails unless you showed me the future of this industry. You couldn't. Why would I ever leave Roman Raines? Ever. Ever. The goat.

The most transformative performer I have ever worked with in my life and it's not just limited to this industry. I credit the tribal chief

character as not only being the most ruthless character on television, and this is during an age when Tom Hardy was still playing Alfie Solomon's on peeky blinders, and we still had better call Saul, you know, when we started the character of the tribal chief. Joan Awai's portrayal of the tribal chief Roman reigns was the most compelling villain on television and the most ruthless character I've seen to this day. And the fact, and we've discussed this before, that the Emmy Awards do not recognize

recognize these performances is a blight upon the Emmy Awards. They should be ashamed of themselves for ripping off their audience by not acknowledging all puns intended, our body of work. Roman Raines came back in August 2020, got put with Brock Lesnar's advocate. I became the special counsel to the tribal chief and later just known as the wise man. And it was on the back of Roman Rains at W.W.E. got lifted out of the pandemic era. What was the stock when Roman Raines came back in August 20? What is it today? $170, $167, $170, $175? What was it back then? In the 70s, in the 80s? The merger happened. Why did we merge with UFC? Why did TKO take over? Why did Netflix give WWE slash TKO $5 billion rights fees?

Who lifted us out of the doldrums of the pandemic? The tribal chief Roman reigns. And behind the scenes, Joe on Hawaii, this is not some shtick that I say on Monday Night Raw. This is legitimate analytics and metrics. You take a look at what he accomplished with the portrayal of that character. and all of us around him and all of the opponents that he got to work with and make bigger stars out of. So when it came time that, okay, we need to do something new, we need to do something different,

we need to position him, we need to tell another story here. Because we've told the championship story, and now we've told the story of what happens when he loses the title. Now where do we go? I don't give you a chainsaw. You weren't going to get me away from him. Let me work with Seth Rollins, who is going to be the most personal opponent, even more so than Roman Raines' family, the most personal opponent to the tribal chief Roman Raines, is going to be this more than a decade-long story with Seth Rollins, who we debuted within the shield.

Now Seth Rollins has Roman Raines' wise man, the same way Roman Raines had Brock Lesnar's advocate. And we have Bronbreaker, who to me is the undisputed, uncontroverted future of WWE, a multi-time WrestleMania main eventer coming up, let alone Bronson Reed, whose game has elevated like this beyond description to where now everybody is talking about the tribal thief and his Shula Fala, and you give me a chance to work with these people, and we're against Roman reigns, Okay, why? Well, because now I can sit here and say, what's the main event of WrestleMania in 2026? What's the main event of WrestleMania in 2027? What's the main event of WrestleMania in 28? How do we get there? And how do we start telling those stories now?

And what are the little hints that we can drop now? What are the little things that we can say now? What are the little devices that we can use now? What are the scenes that we can play out now that we keep on going layer upon layer, upon layer, upon layer, in these deep storylines that then come to fruition at next year's mania, that leads to the next year's mania, that leads to the next year's mania. So if I'm sitting in a meeting and we say, okay, where are we going for next year's mania? Well, we're going three manias from now because this mania is just the pathway

to the next year's mania, which is the pathway to the next year's mania. Long-term storylines is where it is. It's the same reason why, and this was discussed on Unreal and this was discussed ad nauseum by a lot of other people, same reason why it wasn't time for Cody to become chair, We discussed this.

We discussed this in Los Angeles. It wasn't time for Cody to become champion. There was another WrestleMania main event coming out of that. There's another year of that story to be told. And so it's never just about, let's get to this year's mania, and here we go, and we'll figure out the rest after that. If I'm in a meeting, I want to talk about three manias from now, and then let's tell the story backwards.

backwards in the old regime specifically the vincent man era where those conversations happening or is this a byproduct of the new regime because it does seem like there's a lot more the the you know the the the bloodline story like that was a movie right three four years and there were seeds being planted throughout the way and that didn't feel like the old product is this a sign of the new times it's a sign of the new times but it's not it's not only because of a regime change it's because there are different demands now. There are different demands on our, I mean, we have a much different network license. We have a much different as exposed today, or not exposed today, revealed today, a premium live event deal and a streaming service. It's a sign of the times. You know,

it's the old expression is the only constant is change. So back then, under VIII, Ms. McMahon, if we could get the conversation to what's the main event and what's the support in next year's mania, that's a great long-term meeting. Today, we can sit here, and again, a lot of this has to do with what we did with the bloodline and the creation of the tribal chief Roman Reigns, that we can sit here and say, well, what are we doing three years from now? because that's how we looked at it. We knew when we hit with the bloodline, wow, let's plan this out.

Let's see how we can max this. And again, let's always get out at 1159, not at 1201. Now, okay, you know, you don't want to do the old Arthur Fonzorelli jumps the shark. For those of you at home watching,

you know, I know most of you watching, don't even know what I'm talking about with Arthur Fonzarelli. Google it bitches, I'm not here to educate you. But, you know, it's so long-term planning now, it's not only a regime that is open to it or more open to it. It's also, to me, the reality of the industry today in that you can plan out three, five years down the road.

It wasn't that way before. You know, and now also there's longer-term contracts. We're signing people for three to five years before. That wasn't always the case. It was only the top stars that were getting five-year deals. What did you think of unreal? It's a reality of the industry today that I have to accept. What do you mean by that?

I, um... I grew up in this business at a time when if you're in a bar and someone walks up to you and says, or you're in that fake wrestling business, notice the southern accent when I say that. No offense to all the people from the South, but if you don't swing, if you don't defend the business, and someone else sees it or finds out about it, you're catching an ass-kicking and you're getting shipped out of the territory. That's the way it was back then. All these stories of you hear of, you know, legendary bar fights

of guys like Hakku ripping people's eyeballs out. You know, show me how fake this is now, brother. You know, that's how we were taught to defend the business and we caught the ass-kicking if we didn't defend the business. So that's where I grew up. So to now be in a situation where it's so open to where it's not just this is how the magic is done, but we're going to show you the wires and we're going to show you the crew that inserts the wires and we're going to show you the writing team meeting in which we discuss the wires to do the magic trick.

That's an adjustment for me. And it's an adjustment that I have to make and accept because if I take the tactic of, wow, I'm not used to this. I'm not used to being so open and transparent about the inner workings and the secrecy. It's still, for so long it was a secret society. It was a closed business. But then again today, Sammy Gravano does a podcast. Michael Franzis does a podcast John A light does a

podcast all these gangsters sitting there going Yeah so we know We clip Mario and Rocco came in the room And we had to clip Rockles I liked Rockin'all too Too bad we had to kill him Yeah and he was my brother-in-law You know

So you know all these gangsters are revealing What it is So it's a far more open and transparent society Where at least we think it is And I have to accept unreal as part of the platform by which WWE is Disneyified and picks up a streaming deal on ESPN.

The way I look at it is this. I'm always going to be like this when I see a camera behind the scenes because I'm still not used to it. And I'm going to have to get used to it because the train is leaving the station. And I want to be part of the, if not the conductor, I want to be one of the conductors or one of the top advisors to the conductors as to where that train is going.

It reminds me of a lot of music artists. If you go to Bruce Springsteen or Mick Jagger or Stephen Tyler, any music act that has been around for years and decades and years and decades, and is still able to sell out stadiums. And you ask them, on what platform do you think your music sounds the best to the man or the woman, Madonna, whomever, will tell you, vinyl. Vinyl. Every musician will tell you their music sounds best on vinyl. Nobody does vinyl anymore.

Nobody. So, since no one does vinyl, if you sit there and go, oh, well, I don't want to do my music if it's not on vinyl, then you're not going to make any money in the music business. I don't want to be one of these people that says this phrase. Back in my day, I want this to be my day. I want next year's WrestleMania to be my day. I want tomorrow to be my day. I want three WrestleMania's from now to be my day.

That's why I latched on to Braun Breaker, because he's the future of WrestleMania. Oh, I want to be attached to his hip. Why? Because I don't want it to be back in my day when I main evented with Roman Raines and Brock Lesnar and CM Punk. I want years from now to also be my day. Part of this being my day is accepting unreal for what it is. It's not an expose of our business. It's letting people in to see.

the passion, to see the planning, to see the meticulous work that goes into, to see the debates that go into, the decisions that are made for an industry that so many people think is one dimensional, and it's not, it's not. As many debates as there may have been, this is a dated reference again, because I'm old, what do we do in the final scenes of the soprano? do we kill him? Does he live? Does he get out of the mob? Does he get arrested? Do we just not tell anybody anything and just go dark like that? And I would love to see that room. I would pay to see the debate that went on for the final scene of the Sopranos or the final scene of Seinfeld or were any of these of any of these culturally significant shows. We went out of,

showing you the debate that goes on. Who's going to win the Rumble? Who's going to go on the main in the main event? Is it punk? Is it Jay Uso? Should Gunther be the champion at that time? What's at stake with Roman Raines versus Seth Rallens versus C.M. Punk? Is it really this

a battle to see where Heyman goes? Is that character still relevant enough on the island of relevancy that he means enough for that to be what's at stake in that match? What's at stake in Charlotte's match. What's at stake in Alexa Bliss's match? What's it's taken Rea Ripley's match or Jade

Cargill's match or Liv Morgan's match or Dominic Mysterio's match? Who do we elevate on this WrestleMania? What is your takeaway from day one? This is my takeaway. Ooh, I don't know. I think this is my takeaway from day. I have another opinion. What if this is the takeaway? these are all the debates that happen. Seth Rollins cash in night one, does he cash in night two? If he cashes in night two, does Brock Lesnar come back night one? Brock Lesnar comes back night two, shouldn't Seth Rollins cash in on night one? These are the debates that happen.

And now it's open for the public to see what a fascinating industry this truly is behind the scenes. I loved it. I loved everything about it. Obviously, I'm a super fan, if you were, a longtime fan. I loved it. There was one moment, the whole punk main event, all this stuff, and everyone fixated on punk and Triple H hugging. And they said, like, a whole generation was healed after seeing this. But what people didn't notice and what I noticed was right before he hugged Triple H, he hugged you.

There's a shot of you guys in the distance of the guerrilla room hugging and, like, holding on and speaking to each other. Do you know what I'm talking about? Absolutely. Could you tell me about that? What are you saying to him there? Because that one seemed, that one hit me in the heart. I told him, I said, I said, you made it and you did it on your own terms. And there's no charity here.

And this is not a political move. It's not a gift. It's not being done just to appease you or even the audience. You're in the main event of WrestleMania because you earned the right and the privilege to be in the main event of WrestleMania. And you made this happen and you worked your whole life for this moment. Enjoy it. Enjoy it for everything that it is. Because you made it.

You made this happen. And I told them, I'm so proud of you and I'm so happy for you. And here's the best part. We get to walk out there together. We get to do this together. We get to enjoy this entrance together. And thank you for letting me be a part of it. And then I hit him with the phrase that is so long gone in our industry and shouldn't be.

Thank you for the house. That's a great phrase. Yeah. That's amazing. I love that. But all three of them deserve to hear that. Yeah. All three of them deserve to hear thank you for the house.

Seth Rollins gave the most brilliant microphone performances of his entire career going into WrestleMania. If I had any doubts that it would work with Seth Rawlins and I didn't, my God, his performance is going into, Mania. I thought Seth Rollins stole the lead up to mania. I really do. I thought he was, I thought he was the most riveting, the most believable, just my God, his promos were just so on point in putting us all in our place, putting Roman Raines in his place, putting even CM Punk in his place, and setting up his heel turn. Punk was just such a compelling character, and you understood, you knew, you could see how real this was to him that he was going to main event WrestleMania, and for Roman Reigns.

Just the tribal chief in his first WrestleMania walking out to the ring in half a decade without the title around his waist. So for Roman Reigns, what was that going to be like? And the manner in which he told his story, and the manner in which he let you know that these two guys are working with me, Roman Reigns, the absolute undisputed, number one, top star in this entire industry, and just maintaining that position and that aura and that mystique, they all three deserve to hear thank you for the house. only one got to hear it though punk because I was with him right right um okay so much man there's so much to discuss with you

uh you mentioned set and you mentioned okay the run recently that you're on with him saturday was incredible what a story and i i will be honest i haven't been paying attention much to the the news i'm just sort of enjoying things my kids like it and it was nice it was nice to be surprised so i didn't know injured not in i knew he was hurt but i didn't know all the other stuff in between So when he came out, I was like, holy shit, this is great stuff.

Was he ever hurt? No. Never hurt. Even like when he was jumping around a Saturday night's main event. No, that was Plan B. Holy. What do you mean? What do you mean by Plan B?

Well, we, the story since mania is a power grab that this is, oh my God, I'm breaking. No, no, no, you're good. You're it. This is what we're calling the vision. And the vision was Seth Rollins in a position of power to lead W.W.E. and indeed, the entire industry, into the future. So how do you get that power grab? The power grab is you need the title. So we needed the title. So every time Seth Rollins was getting himself in a position to where he could. could go for the championship, C.M. Punk kept interfering because Seth Rollins made the

statement, as long as I'm here, C.M. Punk will never be champion. And Punk decided to reverse that on Seth Rollins. So Seth Rollins realized he's never going to be champion as long as C.M. Punk is around. Or at least as long as C.M. Punk sees Seth Rollins going for a title. So we need plan B. So plan B became get the money in the bank briefcase and get out of the way, out of sight, out of mind.

So punk never sees it coming. It just so happened that CM Punk ends up in the title match at SummerSlam. A happy coincidence on our part. It just so happened, CM Punk happens to win at SummerSlam. Now, if CM Punk didn't take that beating from Gunther, It would not have made sense for Seth, for Seth Rollins, to have cashed in the money in the bank briefcase at Somerslam.

The idea was, wait till a champion, Gunther or Punk, or anybody that could beat Gunther, and there's not a lot that can, is in a position of vulnerability, cash it in so that Punk can't interfere in the match to stop Seth Rollins from winning the title. It just so happens punk was in the match. it just so happens punk won the match so talk about all stars aligning at the same moment not only do we get to prevent cm punk from stopping set ralins from winning the title we get to take the title away from cm punk who never gets to enjoy the championship who gets to live out another cm punk had a dream as a kid to main event rassalmania he got to main event WrestleMania, but his best friend betrayed him, smashed him in the testicles, turned on him, and he didn't get to win in the main event of WrestleMania. He had another dream, too,

by the way. He wanted to thank the fans, wanted to thank everybody that chanted his name, that chanted CM Punk, CM Punk, CM Punk for all the years that he was gone until WWE had absolutely no choice but to bring CM Punk back. And he gets that. that moment in his life where he wins the title. He gets to thank the audience that brought him back. C.M. Punk and the audience that chanted his name are co-champions together. But he doesn't have the title long enough to get the damn side plates put on it. Or as I said on television, he may have had the wedding, but Seth Rollins stole the honeymoon

and that title was good. So here we get a chance to take it away. from CM Punk. Half the fun of watching CM Punk win the title was the knowledge that Seth Rollins had that he was going to take it away from him.

So that was the opportune moment to cash in and so we did and that was plan B. The beauty of unreal in my opinion means that now we have to work a little harder to be a little bit more creative and what I mean by that is

the Becky Instagram post with him on the crutches next to their daughter, him on the rich eyes and show talking about the injury. Now I feel like we have to be a little bit more creative and that's why I think all this works. Do you know what I mean? Yes.

It felt very, you know, it was blurring of the lines. This is what we love. Is it real? Is it not real? This is what the fans crave for and I feel like it was executed perfectly. I concur with yours. Yes.

I mean, but then again, when the junkyard dog in, was it 1980 in mid-south, did the blinding angle with Michael Hayes and the Freebirds, junkyard dog went all around New Orleans with patches on his eyes and sunglasses telling, telling hobos, literally going like, you know, down alleys so that the words spread out from the streets all the way up to the corporate suites. Wow, the junkyard dog really got blinded. In ECW in 1994, when we did the Sandman blinding angle,

a sandman who was known around Philadelphia, not just for being the sandman, not just for being the sandman on ECW television, but he had a newspaper route. He owned, like, you know, like Borishead sells, you know, routes, and Snapple sells routes. He had a newspaper. He owned the rights to a territory in Philly

to where he was the person, drove around the van, had a crew of kids, you know, afternoon delivery of newspapers. And that was a full-time career that he had at the time as we were coming out of the gates with the startup brand of ECW. And when we did the blinding of the Sandman, he didn't drive that van. He didn't supervise the delivery of the newspapers. He stayed home. He stayed home for over 30 days, never left his house so no one could see that he wasn't really blind.

So when he did the Hannibal Lecter reveal of pulling the man. mask off of pulling the bandages off his eyes in the ECW arena and caning the crap at a Tommy Dreamer and beating Tommy Dreamer half the death with the Singapore cane because the Sandman wasn't blind, fooled everybody because they bought into it because no one had just seen him going to the local store going, hey, don't tell anybody I'm buying a six pack of beer or with the Sandman's case, you know, a case of beer or two cases of beer from the smash to his forehead and bleed as he's driving home. Not that the man drives drunk or anything.

Not insinuating such a thing. So, you know, it's been done before. And, you know, it just now, if we want to protect the story, if we want to lure the people in as to not knowing, if we want to add mystique and intrigue, we have to be very careful 24-7, 360. It was brilliant. And that's fine. Yeah, I liked it.

Brock Lesnar, how long has that been in the works for? That happened real quick. Really? Yeah, that happened. Like, what's real quick? Week, two weeks? A couple weeks. Okay.

I mean, at least to my knowledge, I got tagged into it after the deal was done. Okay. And when you say deal, like, did he need a deal to come back? What do you mean by deals? Well, he wasn't coming back on speculation. No, he is Brock Lesnar. No, no, no. What I mean by that is like, did he have to sign a new contract?

contract or was he was he still because we hadn't seen him for two years oh I'm sure there's a new deal involved okay and obviously this has been met with some criticism right there's still this ongoing everything in life has met with criticism I don't pay attention to that is the criticism fair no I don't I don't pay attention to it I he's here they see that's a reality of the fact he's here and if you were in MetLife stadium on Sunday you would understand that return meant a lot to that or that audience was jacked to see Brock Lesnar come out and to see him F5 John Sina. Nobody left Matt Leicester and going, oh, God, they brought back Brock. People were just going nuts. That's our paying audience. They're happy to see them. I'm happy to be part of a team that presents him. Everyone has criticism in life.

There are people that criticize Jesus. There are people that criticize. Moses. There are people that criticize Muhammad. There are people that criticize God or gods. There is no president that has ever existed with 100% approval rating. Or there is no president that's ever existed that someone hasn't pointed to and say that president sucked. There are people who to this day think Abraham Lincoln sucked. They're wrong, but they think it. There are people who thought FDR sucked. They're wrong, but they think it. Bill Clinton doesn't have 100% approval rating.

Donald Trump doesn't have 100% approval rating. Nobody does. There's always going to be critics of anything that we do. And very few people ever make it to the top in life without either making mistakes. We're having skeletons in their closet. Obviously, the decision was made. It's time to bring back Brock Lesnar. Whatever that decision is based on, I respect it.

If they're critics of it, get over it. He's here, and he's going to be here, and you ain't going to be able to cancel him. And I'm happy to have him back because the audience is happy to have him back. If we brought him back and the audience rebelled against it, I wouldn't be happy to have him back. I'd be like, oh, man, this doesn't work. But it works. So I'm happy about it. Were you expecting at some point to see him back, or were you surprised when you got the word, this is going to happen?

I, I'm, I didn't know if he was ever willing, you know, because he came to a point where he was very accepting of, this is my life now, I am going to raise my, my daughter to be an NCAA division one champion and she is. I'm going to raise my sons to be the best hockey players that anybody's ever seen, and they are well on their way to being that. I'm going to be a devoted husband to my wife. I'm going to enjoy the time that I have on this planet. And he was accepting that here's his future and what his future was. He was in a very good place. And that's when usually someone throws your curveball and says,

Hey, want to completely change your life now? Oh, my God. You know, just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in. I think I was more surprised when he actually went back in 2012. I think I was more surprised when I went back in 2012. I think I was more surprised when CM Punk came back. Because with Brock, the bridge was never burned. He never bad mouth, oh, he never gave an interview.

you. Sure. But, which is just so Brock Lesnar. Right. But he never badmouthed the company. Company never badmouthed him. You know, the, um, the situation is what the situation is, but, uh, I, I could never write it off. I just thought too much time will pass. And he's just going to be off doing whatever he wants to do in life, and when the door opens, he'll just sit there and say, but the timing of this with Sina still here and doing his retirement tour, with us being on Netflix now, with us going on to ESPN streaming, is there a more legitimate athlete on the face of the planet than the modern day

Jim Thorpe, Brock Lesnar? And then you have to think of the fact that what's TKO's two major holdings, UFC and WWE? Okay, who's ever walked those two paths at that level? There's only two people that's ever been a champion in UFC and in WWE

and meant something and main event in WrestleMania. Ronda Rousey, Brock Lesner. and I love Rhonda to death, but Brock did it longer than Rhonda over multiple decades and look at what he's meant in WWE. So if there's one person that can be inducted into the UFC Hall of Fame and the W.W.E. Hall of Fame on the very same night, and both audiences will sit there and say he absolutely deserves it. There's only one person that walks that line. Brock Lesner.

So the fact that we're owned by TKO, and they brought back the man that beat Randy Couture, the greatest heavyweight champion of all time, and didn't just beat him. They didn't, Brock didn't wrestle him. Brock beat him standing up. Brock knocked out Randy Couture. I'd say that says something about Brock Lesnar, the UFC fighter. And his accomplishments in WWE go from conquering the undertakers on defeated street at WrestleMania to all of his WWE and Universal Heavyweight title runs

to the money that he drew and to the fact that he was part of the greatest promos in the history of the business simply standing next to his advocate, Paul Haven. And so his presence and the attack pretty much signals an end to Heel Sina for all intents of purposes. At least that was my read on it.

And so it lasted from March 1st, Elimination Chamber, until this past Sunday. I think John Sina abandoned the Heel Sina character the Friday night before Summer Slam. Fair. That's 100% fair, but I think it just kind of like put the nail on the coffin. Because there were some people after that promo said like, maybe he's trying to swerve him, all this stuff.

But yes, that's two days prior. Here's the thing. You say abandon. So how would you assess it? How did it go? Now that it's essentially come and gone, this thing that we had talked about for so many years, what would John Sina be like as a heel? How would you assess that five-month period?

Was it a mistake to turn him? No. No. Did it go as you thought it would? No. Neither. No. Because it opened my eyes to the fact that this is an audience that is here to see stars and performances. As much as they are rooted into the storylines, they are there to appreciate. the twisted performance art known as professional wrestling in WWE. And here's how I knew that. The moment, you know,

and don't do-do-do-do-do, do-do, and John Cena comes out, that place went nuts, star pop, of a magnitude few have ever experienced rarefied air, what we in the business used to call the road warrior pop. I mean, just when his music hit, Austin, Rock, Sina, Roman Raines, that level, right? And then once he's out on the stage, John Sina sucks, John Sina sucks, right? And they're booing him, and they're telling him that he sucks. And it wasn't even 50-50 anymore. Let's go Sina Sina sucks.

It was now one-third, maybe 25%, 20%, 20%. percent. Let's go, Sina. Sina sucks. Let's go, Sina Sucks. Boot him out of the building as a heel. And the moment they saw the red light go off and they knew the show was over and he's standing there in the ring, they all gave a standing ovation because it's his last time as an in ring performer in that city. And they're all chanting, thank you Sina. So the audience knew their role. And that's fascinating to watch that the audience now understands their role in all of this. And I saw that curve coming, but not to the degree or that it happened so expeditiously, but

the picture perfect example of it is the reaction to heal Sina. Okay, we're here for this ride. All right. Oh, he's here, he's there live! That's John Sina! That's a huge star. I'm seeing him live. You suck! Ah, you motherball! The show's over?

Thank you. I keep on banging into this. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. It's all good. It was just fascinating to watch. I'm glad he got to do it, too, because I hate what ifs. As long as it's about the past.

I love what ifs for the future. What if we do this? What if we do that? When it stokes your imagination, but I hate, you know, what if Muhammad Ali protected himself better in that match in that fight with George Foreman.

Would he have suffered the injury to his brains as much as he did? What if he didn't walk into that punch from Ken Norton that broke his jaw? You know, would that have enabled Ali to not suffer as much as he did later and all these what-ifs? You know, what ifs? You know, what if Gordy Howell played against Wayne Gretzky? What if Michael Jordan played against Karima Abdul-Jabbar, against LeBron James, against Wilk Chamberlain? What would Wilk Chamberlain have been like? What if Wilk Chamberlain got to play against Steph Curry today?

These what-ifs are frustrating as hell. What if John Zina had ever turned to heal? Oh, man, we'll never know. Well, now we know. Now we know what would have happened. The what-ifs I like for the future. I can't stand them for the past. And that would have been a what-if that we all would have asked.

And I thought he delivered. I thought he took it as far as he could possibly take it. He even took it places I didn't think he was going to. And he put his heart and a soul and his passion into it. And it was a risk for him to do that. Number one, that man sells a lot of merchandise. He makes a lot of money on merchandise. Number two, hey, you never know who you're going to piss off.

You never know. I did the Tony Hinchcliff roast of WrestleMania with a panel filled like Jeff Dye and these other people whose names escape me at the moment, no disrespect towards them. But I did a panel. There was a panel of professional roasters and I went out there for a roast

which is supposed to be profane and shocking and mean and ugly and nasty and personal and and I almost got in a fist fight with with with fluffy who legitimately wanted to fight me over what I was saying about him on stage and I know I pissed off Freddie Prince Jr. Because I used a line about about him and and and his father just to open just to let the panel know I'm here. I'm here to outdo all of you. So you never know who you're going to piss off. Never.

I mean, the fact that I was on stage and that a professional roaster was up there and took offense to the roast that I'm delivering was shocking to me. So John Sina has much bigger deals in Hollywood than I do, at least for the moment. And you don't know what. studio head you're going to piss off. John Sina, John Sita did one line, he said, he said, I've been the one to raise your kids because you, you parents have done such a lousy job of doing it. And you don't know, like some studio head may have a kid at home wearing a John Sina t-shirt

now with an X through it that says, you know, you know, you're a lousy parent because John Sina had raised me because he said, you suck as a parent. And that studio head goes, I never want to see John Cena on my studio lot again. It happens that fast. You never know who you're going to piss off. And he took a risk in doing it. He, man, makes a lot of money in sponsorships,

streaming deals. He could have pissed off anybody. And he took that risk because he was cutting into his own audience when he was doing the bit. What about the rock component and the Travis Scott component? It didn't seem like there was a payoff to all that. There was. It fell apart, and we moved forward without it.

What fell apart? The whole deal with, with Travis Scott. Is it true that he's pissed people off and he's done? Is that true? I don't know if he's done. Any meeting that I was in that involved Travis Scott, I got along with him fine. Have I heard things? I have.

Do I know the accuracy of it? Haven't heard Travis's version of it? um like his music like his taste in women that he has children with wish i was dating one of those sisters uh i'm not he he uh he was married to one uh he's doing he's doing better in his personal life than i am what about the rock what about the rock he didn't show up at russomania he was never advertised a book for wrestling no i know but it seemed like there was going to be some sort you know that he's there

this the the throat the three of them i i don't i don't i don't i don't know. I don't know what happened with Dwayne. That's something you should have Dwayne come into these beautiful Yahoo Studios and answer for himself. I really don't know. Or have Brian Goward's committed and I'm sure he can tell you their side of the story. I really don't know.

I mean, especially at WrestleMania I had enough on my plate. Sure, sure. I wasn't really that concerned with what was going to happen with John Sina and Cody Rhodes' storyline. I was more concerned with the fact that we got a lot to pull off here with the tribal chief Roman Reigns and

Seth Rollins and CM Punk and where we're going to go with Seth Rollins and how are we going to do this and how we're going to get to next year's mania and this year's SummerSlam and the trajectory that we had there was a lot on my plate and also other people that I'm working I was working with you know just the talent backstage at the time because mania there are a lot of people that are going to get their nerves up going into mania season and a lot of young talent in our lives A lot of young talent.

You have someone like Tiffany Stratton working with Charlotte Flair, and that almost fell apart and did for a moment. We had to get that train back on the tracks. So just people, you know, and I get along great with both of them and wanted to help both of them get that train on the track. So to pay attention to what's happening that's not going to make it to mania, hey, oh, this is what's going to, I don't give a fuck. I don't care. Okay. Are they going to be at mania or not? No, fuck it. What are we going to do? Don't have time to sit there and say, oh, what happened?

I mean, I understand as a reporter, it's your job to ask and to find out and to deliver the news to the audience. So it's not gossip to you, it's news. But to me, backstage, that's just gossip, because I have too much on my plate helping us get, not just to WrestleMania, but to the main event of WrestleMania. And that's what I was involved in. And trying to help everyone else who are future WrestleMania main eventers. So if they're not going to make it to Mania, I don't care why. Dwayne Johnson, Dwayne Johnson going to be at Mania? No, don't care why. Travis Scott, what are we doing with him?

He's going to be at Mania. Don't care. Don't care. Or he was. Right. You know, but, you know, we'd be afterwards. No, we don't know. We don't think so.

Okay, great. God bless him. I hope he sends a signed a signed a, assigned, what it wouldn't They don't make albums anymore. They don't make CDs anymore. What do they make? Vinyl, old school.

Oh, man, vinyl. It can't be... We take it all the way back. Can't be vinyl. Can't be all the way back. Could I ask you, Rolins, Bronson, how long has that been in the works for? Like, when does that seed

first start to develop? When we start talking about next year's WrestleMania? So this has been like a year ago. This idea that eventually we would get to the point, right? Because like that was nowhere in. No, the conversation. Well, the original idea for this year's mania was Roman Reigns

versus Seth Rollins, Gunther versus C.M. Punk. That was the original idea for this year's mania. Okay. And along the way, when we got to Survivor series, and I came back. And also Cody Sina, right? I think so. Okay. I think Cody Sina was always the path. Okay. Um, listen, we also discussed at some point, do we do Roman versus Cody three? Hmm. Do their main event a third WrestleMania in a row? That would have been interesting, too. There are, I mean, we explored all options.

We got to Survivor series. I came back with CM Punk to save the original bloodline from Solo's bloodline. After they had put me through the table at Madison Square Garden. And the dynamic between Roman and punk was so fascinating to watch that at some point, we said, ooh, is it Roman versus punk? Is it Seth versus Gunther? Is it Roman versus punk and Seth versus Gunther? Wow, there's something to be set for that.

You know? And then at some point, we realized it's so much more intriguing as a triple threat. And Jay Uso's riding a wave of momentum. So if Jay Uso wins the Royal Rumble, and he goes on to face Gunther, and now you have a stadium filled with people that not only get to do that entrance, but in celebration of a title victory, you get that celebration at WrestleMania. What a WrestleMania moment. And then you have this intriguing triple threat

with Roman Raines versus Seth Rollins versus C.M. Punk. Two founding members of the Shield. Paul Heyman's best friend, the tribal chief who rescued Paul Heyman from the ocean of obscurity and brought him on the island of relevancy. Seth Rollins, who I really didn't have a lot of association with over the years, except for the fact that I brought in the shield as bodyguards, policemen, enforcers for CM Punk in 2012 when he was the WWE champion. So you have all these stories that, you know, have been told since 2012 amongst the three participants and me.

that's the way to go. So if we go there, what do we do? What are we doing this match? What makes sense? What makes the most sense? What gives us the most options? What gives us a story that we can tell throughout this entire year till next year's WrestleMania?

Let's not just stop there. What gives us a story that we can tell the next year's WrestleMania and propels us to the year after this? that and the year after that and the year after that. So now it's not just about these three people and me. Now it's about who's the future? Bronbreaker. Okay. Let's get him involved. Look how Bronson Reed's coming up. Look at his performances going into war games. Look what he did with Seth Rollins. Bronson Reed's coming up. Bronson Reed can really add to this. All right? Let's put him in the main act. Okay, who else? Well, there's always Jay Uso. He's Roman Reins' cousin. People love the OG

bloodline. There's Jimmy. Big Jim's coming along. People getting behind Big Jim on his own now has his own distinct, unique personality, not just half of the Uso's. And what about the rise of Jacob Fattu? My God. Talk about someone that caught the attention and the love and the passion of the WWE audience, Jacob Fatou, became a major star since his debut last year. So we can get him involved and we can get this person involved and we can get all these different people involved along the way. Where does it start? Mania. Who's involved? Roman Rain, Seth Rollins, CM Punk. Paul Heyman. What do we do? This is what we do. Okay. Now that we've done it, what are our next storyline beats?

What's the next layer? Who's the next participant in this? Who now joins the story? What's their connection to it? How do they elicit a passionate response from an audience that we are now saying, buy a ticket, tune into our streaming service. Watch us every Monday on Raw and every Friday on Smackdown, so we keep on getting these multi-billion dollar licensing agreements,

licensing deals from the networks and the streaming services. How do you become a WWE fan based on the addition of this person to this top storyline? Man, you still have some time? There's so much. No, but I'll make it.

Okay, okay. Oh my God, what time is it? How long have we been doing this? Like an hour and change. But this has been incredible. Okay, I'll go through. I just want to do this way. Who's going to pull us off?

No one. This is live. It's a shoot, brother. What do you make of what's going on with Karen Cross? in what way something's happening you see the crowd they're there they're chanting for him at the post show and all this stuff he didn't get he didn't get the w is there is there a thing here is it just like the internet trying to make something into a thing what they've made it a thing

okay and it's not just the internet it's the internet it's the live crowd it's it's the people that buy merchandise he's that he's that tremendous performer and what an act he has with scarlet I mean, they are great together. Should he be getting more opportunities? Should he be... How do you know... Well, let me ask you this. If he were getting great opportunities,

if he were the intercontinental champion or the U.S. champion right now, would he have this level of support from the crowd? No, they love to get behind. You know, Kofi, Daniel Bryan, they love to get behind someone, the underdog, so to speak. So it's working.

Yeah, it's working. It's working. All right. It's organic. And by the way, I'm not hating on it. It's fun. I like him. I'm rooting for him. It's just fun to see these things sort of like, you know, kind of. The audience is calling for him to be a bigger star.

And if we don't deliver it on a timetable that an impatient audience, an impassioned audience is going to like, they're going to get behind him even more, which is great. They're making him a star. We're not shoving him and Scarlet down any. Nobody's throats, the audience itself is making him a star and indeed, perhaps, a top star. And he's talented enough, and so is she, to carry it. It reminds me of someone else, by the way, that was in WWE, that the audience felt this is our guy. We like this act.

We like him to be a bigger star. Why aren't you making him a bigger star? Damn it, make him a bigger star. We're going to chant his name. We're going to bring his signs. We're going to buy his t-shirts. We're going to demand that you make him a bigger star. That guy's name was Steve Austin.

Daniel Bryan, too. CM Punk as well. My God. I thought that's actually what you were going to say. Yeah, but yes, CM Punk. But yeah, yeah, point taken as well. I concede that point to you. Did you hear what Bill Goldberg said on the program?

He was upset. Was that fair? It's Bill. You weren't surprised? It's Bill. Okay. It's Bill. If you know, I, I, again, I have been the liaison for Brock Lesner.

I've been the liaison for Roman Raines. I've been half of the liaison. Not lately, but I mean, especially back when we were together on camera, half a liaison for CM Punk. He had no problem handling. You know, he didn't require as much of a buffer as some of these other people like to have. I've been a liaison for Ronda Rousey. I've been a liaison for Goldberg. These are personalities that are very, very, very strong opinions.

and very, very high expectations. And Bill Goldberg had very, very high expectations in WWE. And in Bill Goldberg's mind, they weren't met. I am not going to sit here and tell you, well, Bill Goldberg was wrong. I'm not going to tell you WWE was wrong. I tell you, this is how Bill Goldberg felt, and he's not shy in letting people know how he feels. I'm not surprised.

It's Bill. This is how he feels. Man, he's going to let you know about it. I know your path didn't necessarily cross throughout your career with Hulk Hogan, but did you have any kind of relationship with him? Like I know, like when he came back, you know, like post-2000, you were there, right? But for the most part, you were kind of on different teams, right? Did you have any sort of... My interaction on camera with Hulk Hogan is limited to fact that he worked with Brock Lesnar,

right before Brock Lesnar beat the rock for the title at the Nassau Coliseo Coliseum. and SummerSlam 2002. And when we did MetLife Stadium in 2019 and the show open with Hulk Hogan posing with Alexa Bliss, I interrupted it and walked out to the ring to Real American to kick off the show

for, of all things, Brock Lesner versus Seth Rollins. My on-air exposure to Hulk Hogan was very limited. I didn't get to work with him behind the scenes that much even when I was writing Smackdown in 2002 and he was on the show for a brief period I knew Hulk in 1980

when he was in WWE and I was a 15 year old photographer and he was always super cool to me you know and and even cooler to me once he knew that I was riding with Afa and Sika the Wild Sam Owens, because he loved the Wild Sam Owens and they loved him. Every time I saw him, he was a complete gentleman to me.

The best thing, I know people have both their glowing love of Hulk Hogan, and I know people have their behind the scenes how much they hated him. Here's all I can tell you about Hul Kogan. In 1988, I had just started in WCW. and it was My Midnight Express against Jim Cornett's Midnight Express and Ted Turner had just taken over WCW. My Midnight Express debuted against Cornett's Midnight Express

literally the week that Ted Turner took over WCW a couple months into my run and I'm 23 years old and I mean I had barely been on national television that long. A couple months into my run, we're running in and around the Chicago area for a couple days. W.W.E. is running in Chicago. We're running Peoria. They move on to like Milwaukee or something. We now run Chicago the day after. I pull up when we all used to stay at the same hotel, the Radisson Suites Hotel, which is gone now, which is on Mannheim Road in Chicago, five minutes from the airport.

I pull up, a limousine pulls up behind me. I get out of the car, Hulk Hogan gets out of the limousine. Brother, how you doing, brother? Hey, man, since you've been a photographer, hey, you broke in, you're doing it right, you're doing it great. Talk to me for a minute, brother. So we get into his limo, and we get into his limo, and the first thing he says is he goes, how long's your contract for?

I'm a big fan of your work. Wow. And I'm sitting there, and this is not. 1988, Hulkomania, when it's Hulkomania. This is the absolute biggest star in the entire business, and a mainstream celebrity. And he's a fan of mine? I'm not even getting a chance to say, thank you for the house, thank you for paving the road. My God, what you've done for this business, we will all benefit for generations to come.

I'm not even getting these words out of my mouth. all he's doing is brother I'm only as good as the opponents they bring me I always need opponents and you can talk from my opponents and there's only so many times I can bounce around Bobby Heenan only so many times I can throw Jimmy Hart over the top rope we gotta get you in here

and I'm like thank you you know it's humbling because I don't even get a chance you know and as soon as he's done saying this all right brother see on the check-in line and gets out the limo he didn't even wait for me

me to say anything to him never fished for a compliment never waited for me to go thank you sir and by the way he finished his spiel and got out and from what i understand with other people he was gracious with them like that too so my experiences with him were all pretty positive i then again you know i i was never in backstage politics opposed to him Right, right. And I don't know what that was like, so I can't speak to it. But I can tell you as far as my personal interactions with him, he was always a gentleman with me.

Round third here, big news this morning, ESPN. I can just see, by the way, everyone in WWW who's watching this right now is sitting there for the past hour going, will you please get to the ESPN? know what? What are you doing? My God. Like, like, Damon never do the Helwani show. No, please don't say that, because that has been said. Please don't say that. I just,

that's the natural starting point, so I like to keep people on their toes. But we've been talking about it all day on the program. Big news, ESPN, WWE, who would have thought? When I'm at ESPN five years ago, four years ago, I'm begging them to send us to a PLE. Now, fast forward, they're in

business. Exclusive deal here in the United States, five-year deal, 325 or so a pop it's an unbelievable thing I think everyone thought oh of course they're going to go to Netflix right I think everyone thought that they don't go they go to ESPN what was your reaction when you heard this not surprised at all the the leader in sports entertainment as the advertising will tell you and the worldwide leader in sports coverage the only constant is changed we go back full circle in in this conversation well for me, I tell you, a personal anecdote, my first national TV exposure was on ESPN when I was 21

years old because back in those days, Vern Gagne's AWA ran an afternoon strip Monday to Friday on ESPN. So my first national exposure was on ESPN back in 1987 when I was 21 years old with the AWA. So now here we are. I believe that's the last time ESPN aired pro wrestling in any way, shape or form right absolutely unbelievable absolutely um the definition of what we do has evolved again take a look at unreal unreal now lets you know just how big and and and and and intricate what we do truly is it's not just a couple guys in their underwear going out to the ring saying oh i'm gonna rip over your head and piss down your neck ah your mother wears combat boots okay that's it let's fight boom boom boom boom okay brother boom okay oh this guy wins there's a lot that goes

into it a lot we're mainstream entertainment um so if you look at the evolving definition of what we do you have to give us the category of sport you have to is it predetermined absolutely is it entertainment? Absolutely. Is Connor McGregor entertainment? Absolutely. Cona McGregor was the most entertaining UFC fighter. That's why he drew their biggest gates. Was Mike Tyson versus Jake Paul a fight? I believe it was. Was it entertaining? Sure was. Was the built-up to an entertainment? Sure was. Was it the biggest live boxing match of all time? streaming on Netflix? Sure was.

Was Floyd Mayweather entertaining? Sure was. I was a big Floyd Mayweather fan from the get-go, but when they did that 24-7 series on HBO, everyone became a fan of Floyd Mayweather or a fan of the villain Floyd Mayweather, especially against Oscar Delahoya, let alone against all his other opponents.

When you saw the internal family drama of Roger Mayweather, the uncle training Floyd because Floyd no longer wanted his own father who was a hell of a trainer to train him anymore and the father came by the gym and he's yelling at Floyd and at Roger and he throws his father out of the gym and he goes I don't need your shit anymore I don't know fuck you and blah blah blah blah blah you know and he ends the show with and I ain't no junior wow wow and I you know that resonated in my head because Vince McMahon never liked to be called junior When we brought Ray Mysterio into WWE,

didn't want to be Ray Mysterio, Vince didn't want to be Ray Mysterio, just wanted to be Ray Mysterio. So I realized, man, you know what? There were people that really do feel this way. I knew it. And I was like, wow, I was riveted by the Floyd Mayweather story. Was it entertainment? Oh, come on.

Of course it was, until the ding, ding, ding. There are great athletes out there. World class athletes. that have Super Bowl rings, World Series titles, or have won heavyweight championships in UFC, or in a boxing ring that come down, step into the PC, try to hit the ropes, take a flat back bump, see what that ring is like, and want no part of it.

Number one, the cardio is a completely different concept than it is in any other sport. Number two, it is a completely different science than anything else. But if you're not an athlete, if you don't have athletic ability, if you don't have sports, if you don't have some sort of sport in you, you can't do this. I can't do it in the ring. And I know this business, I dare say, as if you put a list together of the five people

on the face of this planet in history that have understood this industry, I dare say with all humility aside, I'm on anybody's list. And I can't do it. I can't do a moonsault. I can't do what Logan Paul did at SummerSlam.

My God, that kid's an athlete. This is sport. It's predetermined sport, but it's sport. If ESPN were to ignore that, shame on ESPN. And the chairman of ESPN, Jimmy Patero, is an exceptionally bright man. And I know that he is, because I know of his education, because he went to the same high school as me. Wow.

I went to the, Jimmy Patero is an Edgemont High School grad. Wow. Which makes him smart. That's why when I raised my kids, I wanted my kids to go to Edgemont High School because it's been consistently ranked amongst the top in the country. Incredible. So he's a smart man that made a smart man. that made a smart deal with other smart people like Nick Con and Ari Emanuel and Paul Levec to bring a guaranteed product.

There's proof of concept in our product. And he's bringing it to the viewers of the ESPN because much like those who chant for Carrie and Cross, the viewers of ESPN or ESPN Plus, demanded this. They wanted this. They're willing to pay for it. And who is he to tell the audience that they're wrong? They're not. You under promise and you over deliver.

And he's giving them what they want and what they're willing to pay for, which will only make ESPN more money and make it more impressive for Disney. And the Disney stock goes up and the TKO stock goes up. And hopefully Paul Heyman's paycheck goes up as well. What a time. And now we wait to see where the UFC goes. But all that, like, they have taken over combat sports. Oh, who would have thought?

Dana White thought it. Yeah. And he was right. And meanwhile, here we are an hour and a half later, and we never got to look at the clip from looking for Larry. Oh, where is it, guys? Do we have it? Do we have it?

There it is. Oh, this. Now, wait, wait, pause, pause. Frank, you're ruining it, Frank, you're ruining it. Okay. So I walk in today. Okay. And I have been telling you, you know Mitchell Stewart.

Of course. What a creative, amazing, humble... He's sending my best. Oh, well, he's watching. Okay. I'm sure he's watching. I'm sure right now, my son, who's in the control room learning, amazing.

Is sitting there getting phone call from Mitchell going, why can hear the clip? Okay. Right in the air the clip. So Mitchell put this deal together looking for Larry with the MCM studios. And I have been on Mitchell's ass since AI really, started to come out of the gates, saying, if we don't get in on this thing AI, if we don't get in on artificial intelligence, we might as well just say, looking for Larry was a great run, it's time to

close up shop. AI is the future of everything, you know, in this world. And when Elon Musk colonizes Mars of that world, too. And he said, I got it. I know the move. I know the move. I know the move. I know the move. And I trust him because he's amongst the most trustworthy individuals in the entire world, which is why it's surprising he has a partner like me. I'm the gangster of the two of us. So finally today I went to the studio. And of course, the first thing I ask is, show me the AI. Because bad AI is horrible. Right.

And I'm like, this AI is not. Like, to me, you know, you know the things online with the little kid, you know, they have little kids doing our promos and our scenes? I'm, I'm blown away by that. That's like, that, that just blows. I didn't know that was AI. Oh, of course. I thought it was real. That's how good it is.

The kid with a beard? Yeah, I mean. So they have, they have a little kid doing this interview and a little kid. I want to see that, by the way. I want to see that online in the next week that something for this interview and it. It's the Halwani, you know, with the beard and the big, yes. So, you know, I worked in, I was real skeptical. I was like, if this is not absolute 8K, out of the box, progressive, innovative, cutting edge better than anybody else AI, it ain't going to work.

and he just had that slime Mitchell Stewart's smile on his face and goes looking for Larry is going to be bigger than ever and this is what he showed me

what you're watching has not one human being has not one actual camera in use this is all AI. Wow. This is artificial intelligence

at its most innovative. This is for a client who is a tequila company. Wow. Look at the details on the fingers, on the fingernails, on the eyes, on the fruit,

on the knife, on the background, on the hat, on the shirt. This is AI. That's not a real. real person. That's not a real fire. This is all AI.

That's insane. There was an MMA promotion that came out and did all their videos in AI and it was exactly as you were saying, horrendous. This is the complete opposite. I don't want to say their name. I don't want to say their name. I don't want to say it. So this is for a client of ours, which is C. Senor Tequila. Okay. Wow. That is absurd.

And look at this. What? All AI. That is scary. How good it is. Yeah. So today I wake up. Wow. Wow.

And I find out that WWE, which is on Netflix every Monday and worldwide on Fridays as well, that WWE is on this huge streaming, the biggest streaming platform on the face of the planet, Netflix. And now our premium live events are going to be carried by the, worldwide leader in sports coverage, ESPN, and I find out that my side gig, my side hustle, all pun intended, which is the looking for Larry agency, has now partnered with a firm that we can deliver AI to that degree. It's a good day. What a day. It's what a day. And I get to come here and do the aerial hell wanting show for the final time

at the WWE ever allows me in the studio. Why? Because we waited an hour and a year. I bet you it feels like a year to them watching Stanford. Because we waited an hour and they have to talk about ESPN. It was a big deal. We talked about at the top of the show, but we got into the coffee and the U back here 15 years. There was

so much to catch up on. It was. It was. We never got to the Epstein list either. Oh my gosh. Can I end on this? On the Epstein list? No, no, no. You may not. Can I end on this? There's so much to be excited about. There's so much to be proud of, I'm talking about from your perspective.

There's so much to discuss and there's so much more that we could discuss. So much has happened. But what I love most about you and respect most about you is that every time I would call you on a personal note,

I would say, how are you? As we said at the top, I'm a blessed man. And you would say, why? My kids are healthy. My kids are healthy, yeah. And very recently,

I got to meet your kids again for the first time in a very long time. a very proud moment in my life was being invited to your daughter's but mitzvah. It was just punk and I from the world of wrestling

even though I'm not really from that world and your son was there, Jacob, Zalia and Jacob, and then I got to reconnect with them very recently, and as I told you privately, but I would like to say publicly, that is your greatest legacy. You're going to be known for a lot of things.

I was blown away by your kids. In the early 20s, I was blown away by how they conducted themselves by how mature they were, how they talk to people, how they talk to me, how they talk to my kids who were there as well. The things your son was saying was very much like you, cut from the same cloth. And I'm not just saying it, because I wouldn't say it if I didn't. I was so impressed with your kids and the job that you have done as a father. And I hope that people recognize

just how good of a dad and the job that you've done raising them because I was blown away. And I told my kids afterwards that night, I hope you were paying attention to them because they were what I want you to be. Well, thank you. I am, I am a blessed man. And I, uh, my children are truly my parents' grandchildren. Uh, they, they inherited my parents' karma. Not my, thankfully. Um, I, I strive every day to be worthy of being Azalean Jacob's father.

That's my goal. Um, and, and they are my legacy. everything else I do in life is just to avoid having a real job I just never wanted to have a I mean when I was a kid I was a photographer and then I worked at Studio 54 you know and then from Studio 54 I had

I had a public relations firm at 20 years old and then I went from there to going on the road and do this business I never wanted a real job I just never wanted to be one of many so everything I've done in life is just to pursue my dream and my passions

and avoid real work and and they they are my real work that's that's

that's my legacy and and and and and and and and I just every day in my life I just want to be worthy of them calling me their father job done I I thank you for that

and I appreciate it more than I can never describe. Of course. Thank you, Paul. I appreciate this more than I can ever describe. You know how much it means to me. Sorry for taking so much of your time but um... Well, you're sorry, why'd you do it? Well, there was a lot to get into. Well, sorry. Like, I'm sorry. See, we don't make it a screeching voice again.

I'm sorry, I get him. Uh, that's Paul Heyman. He is the man. He is the Oracle. Catch him Monday nights on raw. If you haven't watched Unreal, do yourself a favor. ESPN in 2026. So much excitement. so little time. He will go now. I will say goodbye to him. We'll take a quick break and we'll be right back. How did this come to fruition? The spark notes on it was funnily enough in Fight Circus. So we all love Fight Circus. Yeah. And I was, I forgot that that's on your resume as well. Yeah, the Indian leg wrestling in September of last year, or 2023. But I know March of last year I was

doing a show with Fight Circus and they brought in a producer director that had done so much great work in Hollywood and in the reality TV world and we hit it off. I had a really good time working with him. I felt we had a good connection and a couple weeks after the show I was just on the phone with him and I sort of asked just offhandedly, hey, how do people get involved in this world? Like what is the casting process

like? What can he do to stand out? When you say this world by the way, are you talking like reality competition broadly or are you talking about this show specifically? Like what was the conversation that you were having on that? Broadly. Okay. Broadly. Yeah, because like I was just throwing softballs trying to get a better understanding of the industry and he

just sort of directly was like, well, which one would you want to be on? And this is where the whole Houdini trick of me and the challenge comes to fruition. I don't really watch reality TV. I was never the biggest reality TV fan per se, but I'd seen season 24 of the challenge, which is Rivals 2. It's a great season. And so when I was talking to him, I was like, I love the challenge. And he was like, no way. The casting director worked with me for a decade on a show that he was doing. And so he was like, let me just check and see where their casting process is for the next season.

And that was March in mid-December. I get a call. Hey, you're on season 41. You ship out February. Oh, wait. Time out. So from single conversation to you're casted? Yep.

There was no audition process. Obviously, I had to go through the whole audition. I had to send in a tape. There was physical evils, psych evils, all the medical testing that we needed to do. Wow, that show has psyche vows. Yeah, yeah. I'm surprised. How long of a process?

is that? It genuinely was like every so often from March to mid-Dcember. It was just a weird thing that I had going on in the background because last year, you know, it was a busy year. And every five or six weeks I get an update and they'd be like, all right, hey, we need this from you. Hey, check this email. You know, you need to fill this out. And part of me didn't really believe that I was going to actually get cast on it. Was it guaranteed? When you were going through all these things, was it guaranteed that you were already on the show and you just needed to check these boxes? Or was there still like a process that needed to be filtered out where you might not still be on. Dude, I thought I was going to get bounced every time I heard from them.

You know what I mean? I thought every phone call or every email was, hey, we've decided going a different direction, you know, someone established in reality TV or someone from a different show. Because when you think about the challenge, it is quite rare to have someone go on with no background in reality TV. That's kind of the whole shtick is they pluck from Love Island, pluck from Survivor. Didn't know that until last night. I'm watching it.

They're like, oh, yeah, one survivor. I'm just like, oh, shit. You've seen the lower third, it's like, everyone's from a fucking show, and then you've got Ben. But even more rare, and this is why I'm so happy that this little serendipitous thing happened is, that show in particular doesn't always do this, like, mass casting. Like, even if they start plucking people, it's like two or three people per season, but it's usually the regulars. And so this season they're doing, like, what previously would have been called, like, fresh meat. Now they're bringing in this whole crop of new people, and you happen to be talking to this producer at the time that they're doing this. It could not have been better.

Same butterfly. Yeah. No, it's ridiculous. And I attribute so much luck to it. You know, I can never be like, yeah, I forced this all. It's just luck. It's just right place, right time. And again, trying to maximize it.

And like I said, literally until mid-December, I was thinking, yeah, they're going to, they're not going to let me on, you know. So you said you watched season 24. That was like, I love the challenge. So when you saw CT won that season, when you saw him in person, were you starstruck? Or you're like, oh, my God, there is. Dude, there was something. surreal about being locked in a house with 16 of these motherfuckers. Because I did go back, like, after I had that conversation.

Here you are with Rogan. There's me getting told, hey, you're on the chopping block immediately. Can we just talk about the juxtaposition between you two? Like, this guy is just like this giant tanned, like, he is like stereotype reality TV, and then you're just normal guy. Could I be more pale? You know what I mean? Could I be...

The lighting's not doing good at it. It's very blue light. It's very blue light. This guy is here to play. And he's orange by nature. So, like, you know, we're going to excuse it. We got the jawline. Come on.

We got, we got the robot. I had to hit the robot, baby. They, like, came back from a commercial break with this. I have so many episode questions. Yes. Let's go back. Let's go back. I want to start with, you arrive in Chile.

Yep. This is where this all took place. Was Chile? Santiago. So this was February 10th to, I think the photography ended, mid-April you're in Chile for two months sure yeah I'm there the phone two months I'm there all the in fact I stayed no but I will say a quick funny story

from like immediately when we get down there two things one I'd asked MTV social team hey so can I post like a I'm taking a social media hiatus to explain my absence because as you guys know I'm chronically online yeah much online and if I just disappeared I think like that would be a little bit odd but I completely botched this social media hiatus post because yeah because I and I think we spoke about it the video that I posted makes it seem like I'm I'm going through something you know what I I mean I literally said hopefully I'll see you guys soon as if I'm not coming you know what I mean like I look back at that I was like oh my fucking God and so everyone's texting me like hey if you need

to talk to somebody I text you like hey man I hope you're all good dude like I so you think because like you say you are chronically online yeah I sometimes feel like I tweet a lot, and then I look at you, and I'm just like, this guy puts up 50X what I put up. It's too much, man. Every time I get on you, have a new tweet. So the thing that you were stepping away, I was like, this guy's in some serious shit.

We're going to lose Bain. I know, yeah. He's going to be institutionalized, man. He's out. Just going to take a step away, guys. I'll be back soon. Thanks for all your support during this. Really hard time for me.

It'll be great if I hopefully return. And I sprinkled. I was like, I've got some challenges I'm going through. So I tried to like, and so some astute challenge. fans that when the casting was leaked, they did go back and they were like, oh, he said the thing. You were trying to do that, but instead you were like, I'm dealing with a really lot of difficult challenges. I'm having a very big mental episode. I'm having a really big challenge. Nice way to get the camera. But so we get down there to Santiago, and I don't know

any of these new threats. Okay, that was amazing. That was Paul Heyman. What a date has been. One last thing that I just saw. This is according to the Hollywood Reporter, just hours after the company announced a blockbuster $1.6 billion deal with ESPN for the U.S. rights to its WWPLE's premium live events. TKO group holdings revealed

quarter two, Q2 earnings that showed substantial growth in both live events and partnerships, two areas that are key to the company's futures. TK. reported revenue of $1.31 billion up 10% from the same quarter last year, where the net

income of 273.1 billion, up from 46.2 million a year ago. Both UFC and WWE saw substantial gains from last year, while rights fees increases played a role. UFC revenue was 415.9 million of 5% from a year ago. WWE revenue rose by 22% year over year to 556.2 million. Thanks in large part to big gains in live events.

And then there's some talk about the IMG. I'm just kind of reading this live. TKO also once again raised its guidance for the year increasing expectations for revenue to 4.630 billion to 4.690 billion. and then there's some quotes so basically to sum up the day life is good for tkos as they continue their

global dominance of the world of combat sports this deal the ufc deal is going to be gigantic and then of course which we we presume is going to you know be announced sometime in the very near future. And then, of course, it's Terrence Crawford versus Canella Alvarez on September 13th on Netflix, their first foray into the world of boxing. What a day. It's almost

six. It's been a long day. But we've done it. One to remember. But now it's time to say goodbye. Tomorrow, it's the boys in the back. That was a clip from the boys in the back. 415. Sub BITB, I believe the number is. Give it a dial. Leave us a voicemail.

We should get a good one from old Donnie D. Yeah, top five? Top five is too meta to explain. It's like everyday faux pos. Everyday faux posse. There it is, all right. You go for a handshake. And what is it?

Usually there's an impetus. Anthony Hernandez is the main event, Fluffy. And we saw him at the PI, and we had the moment where we were like, go ahead, man. And he was like, no, no, no, you guys, you go ahead. You go ahead. it's, it's your, that's all I need. There has to be a seed, right? Yeah, there has to be a reason.

That is the, that is the seed. Okay. And how about, how about the Paul Heyman watch story? I'm buzzing back here. Oh my God, he told you a great story. What about Jacob Heyman? Back there, you guys were, we're hanging out with his son? He was laughing at my son.

You talk about salt of the earth men. Did I not say this? Did I not say this when I told you guys about it? He was incredible. He's like, thanks so much for the hospitality. I'm like, are you kidding me? Yeah. He's up, he's back here chatting MMA with me.

Like, he is a die-hard MMA. No, no, it's like next level. When I met him and his friend, this is Paul Heyman's son, Jacob Heyman. They were talking to me about like the curtain jerker for the Apex card. I'm like, holy shit. I didn't know people like this existed, let alone 21-year-olds. I was blown away. He told me he started watching when he was like six.

He's going to run this show soon. He's going to be the executive producer. Sorry, Rick. Co-EP now. Unbelievable. Very, very impressive. What a day. Can't thank everyone enough.

Thanks to the whole team back there. Phenomenal job. Thank you to everyone who watch. Thank you to everyone who sent in questions. Sorry we couldn't get to all of them. Thank you to DDP. Thank you to Kishon. Thank you to Keith Jardine.

Thank you to Paul and Jacob Heyman. Back tomorrow. Same time. I'm going to say, piece. I'm out of here.