The Ariel Helwani Show - Ilia Topuria is back! White House fight against Justin Gaethje? UFC testimony reaction | The Craic

Episode Date: February 6, 2026

The Craic is back! Our dynamic trio of Petesy Carroll, Chuck Mindenhall, and Ben Fowlkes return as usual.First up, the crew react to UFC lightweight champion Ilia Topuria teasing his return on social media (5:18).The trio also weigh in on Justin Gaethje hinting he could face Topuria next, and possibly at the White House (13:14).Attention then turns to Dana White’s appearance in ongoing UFC antitrust lawsuits, where he shed light on the scope of his current role within the company. The guys unpack the key takeaways (31:23).UFC London tickets have just dropped. With fans unhappy about the prices, the trio ask whether UFC event costs will ever come back down (41:17).There’s plenty of MMA on this weekend, too. The boys preview PFL Road to Dubai’s main event between Usman Nurmagomedov and Alfie Davis (46:13), as well as the UFC’s latest Apex fixtures (52:47).To round things out, Ben Fowlkes sheds light on his latest Uncrowned feature: The Tale of ‘Two Ton’ Tony (1:01:54), and the lads close the show with your Super Chats (1:13:07).

Hello everyone. We know that it's Friday and that can only mean one thing. You are fiending for some crack and guess where you've ended up. That's right. It's the crack. How are you doing? I'm Pizzi Carroll, as you know. I mean, look, we don't have a big UFC pay-per-view event this weekend.

Will you still be an MMA fan? Boy Monday. Who knows? We do have a very, very nice event from PFL Dubai tomorrow. And we also have the return of the meta-apex, which we are all very excited about, and we are contractually obliged to call it by its full name, the meta apex,

for all future references. Oh, yeah, we got Knucklemania, too. I mean, a lot going on. I don't know if we're going to get to Nuclemania today. I know the lads attacked it there yesterday. We have a lot to get through. Guess he was back, guys. Ilya Tupori, remember all of our doomsday talk about, you know,

this could be a long time. Turns out, according to Marcia in Spain, He is back. He is ready to fight at the White House and we have a contender stepping up on Super Bowl Radio Row, who we will reveal in a matter of moments, very exciting stuff that we want to talk about. We also have to get into the testimonies of Hunter Campbell and Dana White, who spoke during the class action lawsuit yesterday and the day before, I believe it was, a lot to unpack there, including, what does Dana White do anymore, you know? This Hunter Campbell guy seems to be doing a whole lot.

There seems to be a whole lot of phones going missing. People's relatives stealing phones. I mean, other people, I mean, it's hard to keep track of where the phones are going in the UFC here, but it's all to be unpacked later on. We have a big feature from Ben folks that we want to get into, too. A lot of groovy things to talk about. Oh, and it's that time of year again, the UFC London tickets came out, and guess what? Everyone's pissed.

As usual, we will be talking about all that lovely snow. duff, but let me welcome my esteemed colleagues, Ben folks and Chuck Mendenhall. Lads, how are you's? Welcome back. Wonderful to see you. Chuck, beautiful pink hat on today. You like that one, huh? Oh, yeah.

I think I wore this one one other time, but I switched it every, uh, because we had breaks back then. Remember I switching at every, uh, every break. But yes, this one, I decided to roll it out, you know, for, for the special Friday. Is that one of the roots of fight, uh, red heart, uh, merch? Yeah. Hot pink, baby. Yeah, I mean, the pink and.

Black attack, you can't go wrong with that. I still have a picture around here somewhere from when I was Jim the Anvil Knightheart for Halloween one year. That was a good one. I'll tell you what, you mentioned knucklemania Pizzi and saying we won't have time to get into it. You better make time.

Okay. Because I talked to Ben Rothwell ahead of this for his third meeting with Andre Arlovsky. And I'll tell you, as a gentleman of a certain age, it just gives you a little bit of perspective. I found myself, I said this out loud to myself when I was writing the story and I was making sure to check everybody's ages, make sure I got it right. And I was like, man, Andre Arlowski is old. He's been around forever.

And I looked, Andre Arlowski and I were born the same year. He was born earlier in 1979 than I was. I was born at the end of 1979. But once I realized that, I said out loud to myself in my office, no, I don't like that. I did not like finding that out because I had already got into my head I was like I was looking at his face at the press conference I was like that's a face that has been through some stuff man

just what what a long and strange journey it's been for the pit bull and then when I realized shit we are basically the same age and that's stuff like that of blow your mind I was thinking about like Arlovsky in the sense of like the very first UFC I ever attended live was UFC 82 in Columbus and he was already kind of already like this veteran of the game so so much that remember he was having some contract thing and they put him on the prelims as a right yeah they put him on the prelims and that was a big deal and you think about how long I've been covering the sport now which was that was all like in two well I was covered it before them but like 2008 was when that event took place and here we are in 2006 and the dude's still competing that makes no sense to me he used to rock a beautiful hairy back I don't know if he still is like do you remember full prime O'Rlofsky from heavyweight championship days. He was rocking that body hair.

Like, I need someone to come back and do that. My back is a mess right now. I need someone to come back with fanged gumshields just to show the world. It's okay to be hairy. It's okay. We don't need to wax ourselves. We don't need to, you know, get your misses to, you know, sheepishly put on whatever the hell kind of hair removal cream that is and disgust you for the next year or so, you know?

This sounds like straight out of some personal experience. Sorry, sorry, I've disclosed too much once again. Look, I'm glad we hit up knucklemania there, lads. I was thinking, what are we going to talk about? I think we talked about that enough. We may hit it at the end of the show again, but lads, before nooklemania, we must speak about. Ilya's return seems to be looming large here. Marcia have featured it.

They say he is in preparation for a White House event, the legal dispute with his X is now all patched up as far as we can tell. This really did seem like it was going to be a far more drawn-out process, I think, when we first heard about it. But I mean, this has to be good news for the UFC, Ben. I mean, one of their biggest stars, I'd say at the moment, back in action and declaring that he wants to fight at the White House, this is music to Hunter Campbell's ears rather than Dana White's right.

Yeah, I mean, you've got to think so, right, because you want I'll be able to. Teporia back. When you look around at who you have right now who could plausibly be something called a superstar, you know, for a while, it was Alex Pereira and Ilya Taboria. And after that, you know, kind of Katie bar the door. So having Ilya back, especially I think after we just watched that interim lightweight fight and we came away going, all right, that was fun. It was wild. I had a good time. I was entertained. But I was. I was. under no impression that I was seeing the two best lightweights in the world. So you need him to come back and sort of reestablish that order. It will maybe make it seem a little absurd that we even bothered to do an interim title if he's going to be back in June. Very true. But you need something on that card.

So far, all Dana White has done is tell us who's not going to be on it, just shooting down ideas left and right. You need to tell us at some point who we can look forward to. Ilya to pouria in a lightweight title fight as a main event there, that's something. That is some real star power that you're bringing to that thing. So you hope he's back. And honestly, people want to give him some shit for, you know, saying, hey, I'm stepping away. I'm dealing with this stuff.

And then now it looks like it's over. I kind of say good for him for realizing like, hey, I don't want to string everybody along. I want to let you know what my plans are. But also knowing you don't want to go into a fight camp. in a title fight, not prepared, not focused, where you're feeling like your attention is being split between other things. Because you know if you go in there and you lose, if you go get knocked out when your head wasn't there,

no one's going to want to hear it afterwards. No one's going to have any sympathy for you for being like, look, I've been going through a lot in my personal life. Shut up. They're not going to want to hear it. So you might as well make sure that when you do come back, you come back focused and ready to do it. Ben, I will counter by just saying that I did read your mailbag, and I saw that Aunt Evans had pointed out that he went through a divorce and there were pockets of time, 30 to 45 minutes.

30 to 45 minutes. Yeah. Precisely that he wouldn't be able to, I guess, focus, you know, and do his job. So, but he was able to do his job ultimately. He said he took a week off and then he was back. I think he was trying for a little bit of a built different sort of argument there in his favor. And my my my counter to that would be your job was like sending emails and shit like Ilya Taboria's job is fighting another man in in a cage on TV.

One of those has a little bit higher stakes. One of those requires a little bit more focus and intention behind it. Let's not we all love to compare our jobs and everything and use the the lens of the whatever experience we have, but there are not a whole lot of jobs out there that share much in common with being the lightweight champion of the UFC. Does it feel like, though, we were a little bit alarmist now? Because this was only like a month ago that we were like, we were having a discussion. We're like, I don't know, man.

I mean, you know, this could be jeopardize everything. And we're not like, it's a month later and he's got that resolved. And it looks like he's coming back. I would say that it's got to be a big relief for the UFC. I think that there's a very big confusion when it comes to this White House card that they're going to need some kind of superstar American to headline it who's pretty much guaranteed to win, right? Like there's something, you put the logic together and you're like,

we'd probably want an American at the top who's going to win, right? Because we're celebrating 250 years and it's at the White House and all this stuff. If that's the case, I just don't know what they're going to do. But I do know that when you're talking about Ilya Tuporia, who's clearly not an American, but he is the biggest star. And I mean, we've talked about this before. Like when you see him outside the courtroom and just being mobbed, almost like, you know, like tabloid stars, like the types of people who have paparazzi following them everywhere, you realize what a superstar he really is. And just even seeing him kind of post-time back and the response I got, I think it had out like a million likes. You know what I mean?

Like it's just it tells you that where the. the star power is right now is right there lightweight, man. And I think that given all of that, like, regardless of the logistical setup, like, he would make the most sense to headline your biggest card of the year. Like, he's just, he's that big right now. Is it, in a way, Ben brought this up there, like the fact that he could actually say, listen, guys, I've got some personal stuff going on, I'm going to sort this out. And we had Chale Sunning on the R. L. O'Anne show around the time when this came out. And he was kind of saying, well, this isn't usually the case. A guy usually needs to be injured to like positive vision.

There needs to be some type of physical damage usually. Is there any way like that this is a nod to his star power, Chuck, that he can kind of say, listen, guys, I need to sort this out. Do what you must. But like, I do think Chale has a point that like it isn't a usual circumstance that we see an interim title being introduced for. No, I mean, and I remember going back through the list. It's usually for, you know, popping for something or, you know, like there, there was a lot of

reasons, but it was never like personal reasons like that. but I do think that the Paramount Plus, like the unique circumstances of kind of running a card, Paramount Plus, I don't know if they thought that they had something in their back pocket that could have a belt attached to it that would draw and deliver. Like, I feel like that probably played in. Like if there's no Paramount Plus, I don't know if that fight happens. I don't know if there's an interim title, right? Like they may have waited this out a little bit longer to see what was going on. But I do think that there's something to that.

I think that to Poria right now, and, you know, who would. rival him. Let me ask you guys us. Who's the rival of him at this point? Like in terms of vitality and just where he's at, he's only 29. The dude is still marketable. So his upside as a fighter is still fully intact and you don't know like how far his greatness can extend at this point, right? So who would even rival him as a star at this point? Yeah, there's nobody. I mean, I think that Alex Pereira really had a moment and still people are going to get excited about seeing Alex Pereira fight. It does seem like he's probably closer to the end than Ilya is, you know, and stylistically, I think that we've all seen that there are some holes

in Alex Perez game that can be exploited, depending on who you match him up with. Ilya Tuporia feels like that guy where so far, for all, we know he beats absolutely everybody you can throw against him, you know, and he has an exciting style. He also has at least one, arguably two different European nations behind him. Those are things that the UFC tends to enjoy, things that have been successful for the UFC. So he's got all those pieces in play. And you also, Pisa, you do make a good point that if we're looking for a feel-good America kind of moment, I don't know if, you know, I'll probably going to come in there and get a win.

And I guess it depends what kind of an event you're trying to have. If you're trying to just say, hey, here's a UFC event. It's happening in this setting and let the chips fall where they may. or if you're trying to do a raw, raw America kind of thing. I don't know because unless he's significantly distracted or rusty from the time off or anything, he probably comes in there and beats whoever you got. I tell you what, it does not look like he's missed many days in the gym.

Based on that Instagram post, I mean, it does not look like Tupuria has been sitting down eating 52 hot dogs. That's a reference I will come back to later. Like, I mean, come on. This guy looks incredible. But look, come with the man. come with the hour. There is an American. And he is, he has been saying some things on Radio

Roe at the Super Bowl, I believe it was. And I believe we have that clip. Am I not? Am I right? At mid next year, 2027, I 100% will be done. Is there a win that you could have? Because you just said it, if you get knocked out, you're done. Yeah. But if you win as a competitor, you have to be saying what's next. Is there a win where you go, okay, I'm good. I've done everything. I'm out. You know, with the amount of the amount that I'm going to have to sacrifice, the work I'm going to have to put in, and the challenge that is Iliot Tuporia on the White House card,

you know, I would never state publicly that I would be done after that, but that would be a fight where if I accomplished that, I am successful, then, you know, it would not be a dumb idea to not do it again. Is that inevitable? Is that I see so many things online about that fight? and everyone wants to see that fight on the White House guard. It has to be inevitable. That's what I won this interim championship for.

You know, the winner of that is, you know, an interim champion, which gives you an automatic claim at the undisputed title, which is Eliy and Zipporia. You know, he has some personal issues going on. I'm not sure when he's going to come back and fight in the cage, but ultimately I can't control that. I can't worry about that. You know, I don't know how you feel about this, guys,

but it feels to me that Justin Gage has been told. something to come out there and just lay this all out there. I mean, I feel like someone's out a word with Justin. I've been like, if he comes back, you know, we know he's coming back now. You're going to be the guy. Do you get that same feeling, Chuck? Yes, because, you know, why was Justin Gaichi even in the interim title fight to begin with? I mean, this was the big dispute, right? Why was an arm on there? I feel like, and you guys can tell me if this is accurate or not that Justin's management

might have good relations with some of the people make decisions at the U.S.E. I mean, it's a wild statement to make it. You know what I mean? He's relaxed. I think they're privy to information, you know what I mean? It also might be that, I mean, for one thing, what he's saying logically makes sense. I mean, we can point to some recent examples

where having an interim title did not necessarily guarantee you the next fight for the title at heavyweight, for instance. But for the most part, that's usually what it means is that to the extent the interim title is worth anything, it's sort of a token that says, I got next. I'm next in line when the champion is ready. And so logically, there's some sense to what he's saying. I also, it's also possible that even if he hasn't been told that's the plan, you might as well go out there while making the rounds of Super Bowl media and say that you think it ought to be the plan. and say that you're you're planning on it

because maybe you plant that idea in enough people's heads. It starts to gain a little bit of support and you help push it over the finish line because people go, all right, people are reacting kind of positively to this. Again, though, I think if you make that fight, and I think that it would be a good fight, it would be a suitable main event for a big event like that.

And you have Ilya to fight Justin Gae. Based on just what we saw of Justin Gachi in that last fight, still tough as hell. Nobody questions that. He can still go out there and swat. But he seems like exactly the kind of fighter that Ilya Tuporia just slices through. Just absolutely picks apart inside of a round, probably. So that is, make your peace with that.

If you're trying to have the raw, raw America kind of night, you're probably not going to end it with the star-spangled banner as Justin Gaci looks up at the fireworks and holds the title above it said. That's just like, odds are that's not happening. Is it big enough, like, is it a big enough, Like, say that that is your main event. And Kayla Harrison, right? Is your American, she's the American, like, that we're going to point to and against

Mandaninez and the co-main event. Is that enough? Like, because I feel like we're kind of building this, uh, this is sort of, this is bigger than UFC 300 in the sense of like, it's just so unprecedented. And, uh, there's been so much hype about it and so much talk about it in terms of maybe there'd be six or seven title fights on this day. But let's just say that those are your, the main and the co-main. Does that seem big enough for the card?

you need a supporting cast, right? You need some undercard fights that have name value that are interesting for one reason or another that seem like they're going to deliver some excitement. But as far as actual titles you'd had to put up for grabs, I mean, that's a big event. It's not quite seven or eight titles or whatever it was that Donald Trump seemed to think was going to happen. And I don't think we'd actually want to see that happen. That's kind of a logistical nightmare for a broadcast. But I would be pleased with that.

Those are two legit fights that makes sense, that makes sense for those divisions that would deliver some action. And, you know, you throw some bone nickel on the undercard, you throw some other, like, fun fights on the undercard. You have yourself a big event there. Just to Chuck's point earlier about Justin Gates' manager, Al-Aub del Aziz, and his likelihood that he is, you know, in good approximation to the UFC brass. you know, we're wondering how does Justin Gaci get on Super Bowl Radio Row? Why wasn't Armin on Super Bowl Radio Row, guys? Who is handing out these invitations, Ben? Do you know?

Like, are the UFC organizing this and saying, we need to send a guy there, send Justin Gagy, because he's most likely going to find this White House card or it is that one? I would think so. I think that that's somebody where you're going, all right, let's, who do we want to put out there that can, that has something that they could sell for us, that's coming off something, but that is also not in camp to prepare for something.

Armand seems like just the the poor forgotten stepchild in all of this. Oh, he's definitely not poor. He's definitely not poor. He's forgotten, though. I mean, that's honestly, the one thing that makes me feel not so bad is how Armand has let us all know that he is like sitting around with generational wealth. I'm like, at least we're not worried about the guy, you know, keeping the lights on while everybody's overlooking him.

But it is wild how before that Dan Hooker fight, Dana White was like, yeah, no, winner of this is the number one contender. He wins it. And then we go, yeah, we're doing a completely different fight for the interim title. And then the interim champ going to fight the actual champ. And so we're basically telling him, don't count on fighting at any time in the first half of 2026. Then you're sitting around with Justin Gacy saying, hey, if I win, I might walk away. I'll get to pour you might win. and then maybe show up by the end of the year to defend the title again if you're lucky.

So it does seem like whether you think his various sins against the promotion are great enough to warrant it or not, he's just being kind of slotted to the side sitting there at number one. But everybody telling him like, yeah, we're not really in a hurry to do anything with you. I will say that Gaetje on Super Bowl Radio Row makes more sense than say Brian Ortega at the Grammys, what was it? Like when it showed up, I mean, the Golden Globes. I think it was the Golden Globes. That's what it was.

Him and McKenzie Dern. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry, pizza. That was a bad. That was painful, man. It was, like, no, man, where are you making them wear the tracksuits?

Let them just wear their suits. And you're saying that of all people, King of Tracksuit. I mean, this is it. Like, you know, when Pizza comes out against the track suit, that's bad. I'm sorry, to the track suit community. Please understand the context of what I've just said.

It's got me thinking. something you said earlier, Chuck, in terms of the amount of likes Tupuria got on this post. And, you know, we're talking about this White House card. I still think that Connor is going to make a play for this.

And I know every time we talk about Connor, people are like, we don't care about Connor McGregor anymore. Okay, be that as it may. I can guarantee you, if they announce a McGregor for you here, he's probably getting more likes and he's probably getting more headlines internationally

than Ilya to Puriya, but he definitely doesn't have that same sentiment. Like, he definitely doesn't have, within the fan base right now where it's like, holy shit, Ilya's back. I think it would be some kind of level of that, but I don't feel it would be anywhere near pure joy that we're seeing. And it's funny too because five years in the game now feels like a lot.

And he's almost been out five years. This would be the fifth year, right? Like 2021 until now, you get a lot of turnover from the fan base. It used to be like diehards hung on forever. I feel like people now kind of come in, they look at it, they get really obsessed with and they leave, you know?

It's been a long time. but man, Ilyat Soporia, like, where he's at, and I think part of it is just he still has the vitality. Like, so if you go back to Conner's, you know, early career when he's, you know, he's beating guys and he's winning titles and he's on top of the world, everything aged so well at that point for him. And if you look at Ilya Tupori, look at the dudes he just beat. Now, we know that they're all like legends within our game and like they,

Hall of Fame type careers. But when you get Volcanovsky, who comes back and not only, you know, wins the title, but then backs it up in this last one, that's, you know, one of his conquests. You've got Charles Olivero who came back strong, beat Gamrod. He's fighting for the BMF. You have, who was the other one? He beat Holloway, right? And Holloway went in there and won the BMF. Like, all of these dudes have continued. It's not like he broke them and they came back and disrepair and they looked bad from that point on. They've all looked very good and vital from that point. And yet he beat them all so easily to Ben's point. Like, this is why you look at the Gachie

matchup and you're like, good luck, man. I mean, it looks like you're going to, you're being fed to the woodchipper here. But that really goes into it. I mean, I think it really goes into it when a guy still has, I hate that word invincibility, but like still has that thing to the public. Yeah, that aura. That's a big deal. What do you think, Ben, in terms of like, I'm sorry for another McGregor question here, but I know that this is what he's targeting. Do the UFC make a stand by deliberately not making him a main event? Like, I mean, every time we used to talk about McGregor fighting, it has to be the main event, all this kind of stuff. Do you have to be? they say, right, you are below the title pecking order here now. Like, this is a new era. These guys are the guys.

Or do you think if he's available, he would have to be the main event, given his links to Trump as well, I suppose. I mean, how do you make him the main event if you have other title fights on the card? And he, unless we're making up one of these titles for him to come. And even if we are, it's just a little bit too farcical to take the guy and just be like, all right, he's the main event over actual title. vital fights, that's not really done. That has not been done. And I also think that the UFC probably looks at it and goes, all right, we're taking it on the chin a little bit here for this White House card because we have learned it's in our best interest to stay on the side of the president of the United States, especially one so willing to receive and return favors. So let's go out here. We'll put on this show. It'll be a money losing thing for us, but it'll be sort of like a

lost leader in that sense. But then we want to also have stuff to turn around and for the money making events later on when we could sell tickets and fill up arenas and all that stuff. I would think they'd probably say to Conn McGregor, like, hey, listen, we got a lot of other moving parts at this White House thing. What we have in mind for you is a big return at T-Mobile Arena in Las Vegas where we can charge a whole bunch for tickets, get that summertime Vegas crowd. Like, I think that financially they'd be like, it makes sense to split those into two separate things. But if they did put Connor McGregor, say, in a swing bout, those two that I mentioned and he's the swing bout, that would tell you of something of the magnitude of the card, right? Like, you'd be like, okay, wait a second. Connor's not even good enough to be headlining.

You know, that's the way that people would perceive it in that sense. And that would be the bang for your buck in terms of like, okay, now this has become something more historic than we've seen before, right? Like, that would be the move if they're going to do it. it does kind of feel like the classic buildup that we've seen so many times this is going to be huge oh my god never like it's going to be huge oh my god okay what what he's going to do and it's Jamal hill and Alex Pereira oh yeah okay well it seems like it ought to be huge right because you're you're looking around right now and going what's on the calendar in terms of title fights nothing absolutely nothing you got the B F fight between Max Holloway and Charles Olivera, good fight, going to be a hell of a lot of fun to watch, not really like a title fight. Other than that, you're looking around and you just don't see anything like at all on the horizon. It would make sense if you are holding out a bunch of stuff to load up on this White House card that you've been talking up for over a year now. But if you don't do that, then everybody's going to go, what the hell are we doing in the meantime, man?

What is even going on? What's on the calendar? Well, you know they're in that war room right now Putting this card together, Ben. Hunter Campbell, Mick Maynard, those guys with Dana, like, peacefully, like, doing other stuff outside of that office.

But you know that they're putting this together right now. They've been in there for a while from their own telling. We might need to send them a pizza or something. They've been in there. They're just trying to open one of those phones. They're like, what is the pass code? What is the postcode? Just before we move on to the testimonies,

so beautifully teased there. I'm talking about. Kayla Harrison feels like the all-American moment for me as a non-American, right? Like, and, you know, she's had an ordeal. Like, she has had an ex-Rody. Like, but there's no guarantee that Kayla will be there. I think she will do absolutely everything to be there. I think it means a lot to her to be there.

But as the non-American, I must ask. I must ask, sorry. I must ask. Is, like, from the outside looking in, I feel like, Donald Trump will want this to be a night of triumph for the United States of America, you know, and we've been kind of, Ben, you've referenced it a couple of times, like, this hurrah moment that you would think would want to go, would coincide with this White House thing. Like, is that important? Like, for what this event stands for,

this relationship between the UFC and the presence of the United States of America, is that not important for the American people who watch this, the people who consume the UFC to have the star spangled banner in all its pride and glory, I don't think that that's unimportant, but also everything that we've noticed around here has suggested that, yeah, Donald Trump might want America to win out. He's mostly interested in Donald Trump, though. That's what I was going to say. He's not like, yeah, he's sure, we want to be able to say that, you know, America did well and everything. But he's more concerned about the man in the mirror in all respect.

So I don't know. I think like if you had a fight where you can put Kayla Harrison in there against Amanda Nunes, as you said, coming back this quickly from the neck surgery, this would be about as quick as you could do it. From just everything I've heard about that particular surgery, I think I mentioned on a previous show how when I did a story about the various, like this is a common issue for grapplers. I dealt with it just from doing like recreational jiu-jitsu for a couple decades. Like next stuff happens a lot. And there are different ways of dealing with it. the way she went is the way the UFC has kind of funneled fighters in recent years saying the disc replacement, get your back out there on the mats. And I talked to guys who said, hey, I had the disc replacement.

It was really bad beforehand. And four months after I got it, I was in the gym shooting double legs, no problem. And so it like, it works. But it also means you can't do much while you're recovering from that because these are artificial discs being placed in between your vertebra and your neck. you got to really, really take that time off after the surgery from what everybody told me. So it's not like you're going to be in fight shape. Like it'd be a really quick turnaround. It'd be a lot to ask of herself.

I'd still probably favor against Amanda Nunes just because of where they both are in their chronology as fighters. And at the time Amanda Nunes had off. But I think you could maybe, if you had that one and you say, Kayla Harrison comes in as an Olympian and perhaps even more importantly, a vocal Trump supporter, she could go out. out there, she could win, she could, you know, give a little speech for the man's ego afterwards, and then we could move on to another one that, hey, maybe an American doesn't win that one, but it's okay. It's a lot of pressure, man, to come back from that, to go in there, if that was the thing, okay, you're the American, you're the token America who's got to win this thing, and you're going against Amanda Nunes.

Dude, that set up is pretty scary for her, man. But I do, I think you're right, Ben, that, like, she would be favored. I also think you're the one who I thought, I think brought this up that, Donald Trump being about Donald Trump, if they're going to do something, there's probably going to be a ceremony where they give him a belt or something like that. I'd be shocked if he doesn't get a belt.

It's got to be at least minus 2000. It's like minus 2000 that he's getting that belt. So you know that they're, you know that they'll have something in store that will swing it back to America in that way. Let's put it that way. I hope it's a garish, like, American flag on that belt.

I really hope so. I mean, we know that the guy loves gold and he loves receiving trophies. Even if they should go to other people, he loves it. So it's a no-brainer that you'd give him some kind of like best president ever belt or something. And I look forward to that

moment. Well, we're all getting hopped up on this white house card and the joy it will bring. Look at Ben's face. The antitrust lawsuit is in full swing. Hunter Campbell took the stand yesterday. And huge deal made of these revelations and the boys in the back talked about it yesterday. And the great Ariel Hohani even called in from the Alps to We're in. Yeah. You know,

he's been saying this for a very long time. I mean, I think right back to when we were doing the ringer, Chuck, he was kind of saying like, this is the system. It is Hunter Campbell running the fight operations. It's been huge news, though, throughout the industry. Are you surprised the reaction to that? I mean, we are very within the bubble here. But like,

just the amount of headlines is generated where, you know, Dana's not involved with these contracts. Dana's only doing the events. He just like to know the TV shows look, guys. Come on. You know, there was some disclosures later on. Like, would he have a saying whether a fighter was cut?

Yes. And different things like that. And but, put the overall reaction to this, Chuck, like, are you surprised by it? The reaction, not really. You know, I think there's a lot of people who, I don't think that, you know,

this kind of thing is more for us. Like, we look at this. and we're like, oh, wow, this is really interesting. Look, we're hearing things that are more concrete than maybe you were ever told or something like that. But for the casual fan, I'm always like, I think they look at Dana White is just kind of the end of like, it all goes through him, everything goes through him. And so they're going to be a little bit surprised in terms of, or, you know, the headlines are going to be that way because people think that he runs everything. But I think all of us, because if you, if you hear fighters over the last bunch of years, when they're talking about negotiations or, you know, they're talking about whatever publicly about their, contract, they're usually talking about Hunter. And you'll hear his name mentioned quite a bit.

And I think that if you just kind of read the tea leaves that way, you're like, well, Hunter's, Hunter's the guy, right? Like, he's the guy who's handling the fight business portions of it more so than Dana. But I will say this, Dana's influence, to say that he's just kind of hands off and these things, I don't believe. It's just, that's nonsense to even go there. because a guy like Francis and Ghanu, for instance, we know for fact that he negotiated with, you know, like he talked to would be in the UFC. You know, it's like this vendetta is not like,

I really don't believe it extends to Hunter. If it does, he's never said anything. And obviously he doesn't talk to the media. But I just think that a guy like him would be in the UFC. If it's just strictly fight business handled solely by one guy, there's not going to be a vendetta that keeps the best heavyweight in the world out. You know what I mean? and then the John Jones things, the way that played out and, like, just,

it's not like John Jones when he was going on his apology tour, was apologizing to Hunter primarily. He's apologizing to Dana because Dana's the one who weighs in heavily on this and factoring into this, right? Like, so these things all playing together, but to say that Dana kind of stands idle and that's just not as he worries about, like, how the contender series looks and all that. It's just, that's naive to think that, right?

Yeah. Is this a legal position, do you think they're taking band? I mean, there's a lot of talk of missing transcripts on phones, pass codes not being found to get into phones, a drawer where old phones go, a tech guy who just puts the apps on the phone, gives it to Dana, he does the thing with the phone,

phone goes in drawer, perhaps, I don't know. Doesn't trust the cloud. Does not trust the cloud. And, you know, I'm starting to doubt the cloud myself. Yeah. After hearing Dana's position, I'm going, you know, fuck that cloud. But do you think this is a lot of kind of legal posturing that we're seeing here, Ben, in terms of the information that is coming out from Hunter Campbell?

It's got to be at least partly that, that we're throwing other people in the path as a shield for Dana at some extent to just being like, hey, he doesn't even do this stuff and he's really hands off in these areas. So that's got to be part of it. I'd also, I mean, I've been covering the UFC and Dana White for 20 years now. If you told me that there's a drawer full of phones and they don't necessarily. know which is which, I'd 100% believe that. Yeah. That's, that is not hard, that's not hard for me to picture at all. That's the name of your bookbed drawer for the phone.

It's bad, I just, I can, I can close my eyes and I can picture that drawer. I, but I also do think that, you know, and from everything that I've read that some of the, the coverage on this, it seems like the judge is not buying a whole lot of this stuff, especially because it's like, at some point, we come forward and be like, oh, yeah, a relative of Ari Shapiro worked for the USC and just stole a bunch of stuff, which that's wild. That's a wild thing to come out here and say is to just be like, okay, yeah, one of the, like, high-powered execs from the parent company installed a relative of his who just was just and just snatching stuff.

And that's a convenient excuse, right? If we have some device, we don't want to give up for some reason because of like, we're worried about incriminating stuff being found on there. We're just like, yeah, that was one of the things stolen. I'll tell you what, man, we're still going. around here at the office and one of the guys had a putter nice putter six hundred dollar putter in his in his office gone just gone so hey we don't know man like you could kind of dismiss a whole lot of stuff by just filing it under that it is though because it's like

even if it is a legal strategy say it works say everybody takes you at your word on this you have painted a picture of not exactly a well-run operation you're you're a publicly held company and you're out of there just being like, yeah, man, we don't, we don't really know what we're doing. We're just kind of winging it. We're flying by the seat of our pants out here. The guy who seems to be the guy out in front doesn't do anything. He's kind of a figurehead. He just works on his TV shows, especially it was hilarious to see him.

I think Hunter Campbell saying like Dana White is obsessed with his reality shows and named three. And I was like, honestly, I had kind of forgotten two of those existed. Yeah, I know. That's what he is, you know, I do believe when he's like, TV. production is a big part of his focus. I remember, you know, my, my CME co-host Chad Dundas when we were with The Athletic, he did a story. And in it, he was talking to a lot of people who talked about Dana White and them saying like, okay, a lot of these other criticisms about how he is as an executive and as a leader are valid criticisms. But the thing that he seems to have just

like a preternatural understanding of and the thing that he seemed to be like a prodigy of was TV production, understanding how the product should be presented on TV, how to do it, how to make it look that way. And that is one of the things that we've praised, right? Like, they go from from Spike to Fox to ESPN to Paramount and the broadcast stays pretty much the same because it's they're controlling it. And so if you tell me that that is way more of his focus and he's not worried about, you know, making deals with people and making sure he's hands on on the matchmaking, I'd believe that. It does make you think if you're one of the fighters who's out there begging for the 50 G's or whatever, maybe you ought to direct your pleas to a different

person doesn't seem like he's and it also would make sense that why he seems at times pretty checked out of the u sc like there are times where it seems like does he even know who these people are uh and it would make sense if he's just like not really focused on that aspect of the business i mean there was a time when i think that dana read everything that was written about oh yeah see where you remember that there was a big deal about the walkout songs and he had to approve them personally like every walkout song he would choose walkout songs for certain fighters i remember chili peppers or rage against the machine He did it for Rich Franklin, like his ACDC.

He did a bunch. But like, you could talk to fighters back then, and he was just kind of hands on with everything. And, of course, this is the live show. But you can't tell me, man, that, like, this company as a whole, and one of the reasons they've been so good is they have foresight and everything. That's why there is such a thing as the, you know, the I. Ali Revival Act, right? Like, they see everything from afar. They know everything that's coming, but they prepare for every eventuality.

You can't tell me that they. that there was no thought given to all the stuff we're talking about like oh you know we don't need to save this stuff or whatever you know you can't tell him with how many lawyers and smart people and business people and shrewd business uh you know acumen in that room that i could believe that Dana like you're saying i could believe that bin 100% that he himself is like oh whatever's throwing the throat in the drawer whatever but i just can't believe those around him or that negligent with it yeah and as you said earlier chuk like the vendetta's like that we have seen and he is openly spoken about, you know, people are debating whether

Tom Aspinall is in a situation like that now based on the comments he made recently. Like, if you're that far removed from the fight operations, why would that affect you so much? Why does it feel personal? Like, I mean, was it not like last week where a media member asked him, like, oh, did Armand, Aramon mess up his chances of fighting for the title because of this? And he was like, yeah, that's absolutely. You know, it's kind of like, well, this is counter to what you've just said. You know, it's, it's very confusing. They're looking to, uh, I think they're resuming the court next Wednesday. And as Ben said, the judge isn't taking any shit. That runner who stole the phone, he's asking, where's the video footage? How do you know that?

There's not a surveillance of like a stiff-legged guy walking out with that putter. I was just so sorry. Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see. There's talk of perhaps Ari Emanuel taking the stand at some stage too. Like, this is, this is a wild situation. Like, We're seeing the innards of the UFC poured out in front of us, as we have from the previous class auction lawsuit as well. Of course, we've done our own dramatization of some of Mick Maynard's correspondence over the last few weeks. I heard works for some awards on that. So stand by for that. I think, yeah. Where was the Golden Globe? You know what I mean? A bit too late in that window maybe next year. Who knows? Lads, as you know, every year they release the UFC London tickets. Every year without faith,

people are pissed off with how much money they want for the card and today is no different. I woke up to a message, well, I believe it was yesterday actually. I woke up to a message from a fan saying, how the fuck are they charging this money for this card? Like the tickets I believe he was saying like we're 150 for the nosebleeds up to 2.5,000. I checked today. The tickets left are. I saw.

I even went into the sections. I have that 160 pound there. There was only $220. tickets left. People 2300 quid. My God. That's a lot of quids for a card that feels very reliant on one, one fight, right?

Lorone Murphy and Evalhoeff. It's a great point. MVP v. Sam Patterson. Okay. So you were talking about one fight there. You are talking about one fight. Like there is. Look, MVP is a draw in the UK. I watched them nearly sell out events for Bellator in the Wembley arena back in the day.

But to put him against Sam Patterson, a guy who was not in that legacy, not in that caliber at all, a guy who's winning, right? A guy who's on the up, a guy from the UK who's looked very exciting. It's just, you know, maybe we need to get Dana back involved with this matchmaking, lads. That's, that's kind of what I'm feeling when I'm looking at this. I understand the complaints. Like, they had so many great London cards straight after the pandemic, particularly. And it's just kind of going back into the old Jimmy Manoware.

now I feel. You know, they're just going to go and... Let me ask you this, because I know that we have this discussion about the overpricing of the London card. The last one that they did, we talked about this. And was it still a sellout and did the prices come down by the end? Or how did that work? Do you recall? I think there was still tickets available, but technically a sellout.

Okay. They always do well. Like, I mean, this is the business of the FOIC game. The UFC sell tickets and all ready to date. And they gauge these markets and they know what they're willing to pay. So it's like, I guess, until that moment comes where you're like, man, there's thousands of tickets that went unsold. I mean, it just feels like they're kind of in the wheelhouse they need to be, right?

And is this one in the middle of the night, too? Were we doing this? No, no, it's, it's local time. He's giving them a treat here. Evlu F.V. Murphy will be hopping primetime UK time. At least there's that. That should help you a little bit, right? I mean, and there's no reason not to. If you're on Paramount, you're not selling pay-per-views, you're not doing anything like that.

So, like, why wouldn't you go ahead and give it to them? But it does seem like in all regards, not just when they go to London, everywhere they go, the UFC is looking for the absolute breaking point. They're not going to be convinced to bring the prices back down until they hit that point where they look out one night and there's a ton of empty seats. And even then, they might have to do it a couple times before they're sure that it's not just an anomaly. I think it's way more likely to be in a USC than it is in Europe. Just the lack of frequency events, the fan base, it's still. emerging, so to speak, there's still people just trying to get out in the bandbagon with this as opposed to, as Chuck said, kind of people coming and going, I feel more in the US. I don't think it's ever

going to get to that stage in Europe, just due to the lack of events, really. And honestly, if one of the markets is the UK and the other one is France, those guys are fucking crazy about that way right now. They are in a passionate love relationship. Peezy, what time did they walk out for that Leon fight when you're in London last time? What time was the actual walkout? I think it was a quarter to was a 4.45. Can you imagine? Can you imagine Evlua fighting at that hour and taking a decision against Lorone Murphy? That's got to be like the worst time because it's like you're you're too late in the morning twirte. It's just like, hey, we're staying up all night. We're still partying. We're still having a good time. But it's also way too early to be like, I'm sitting the alarm and I'm excited to

get out of bed and watch this. Yeah. That's like 4.430. You know, that's a, That's like the worst time I'm invented in a day. It's the flattest, like, there was two Manchester events. The one I was out with Bisping and Henderson was before that. And, you know, that was similar. Like, you know, we're looking around before the main event starts. And there's this guy, this guy is sitting so close to the cage that he's probably paid upwards to a grand for this ticket. He's probably a massive UFC fan.

He's probably a massive Leon Edwards fan or Tom Aspinall fan. And he can't stay awake. You can't open his eyes. And those are the lasting images I have from now. So that is a plus. You're dead right. Like, yeah, that still sounds five times more enthusiastic than what I saw at the meta apex at Zufo Boxing.

I'll just say that. I'm just going to put that out. Listen, we actually made some space for you to talk us through what happened at Zufo Boxing too towards the end. But importantly, Ben has claimed the space. So, I mean, that's fair. He can have that. He can have that.

I know you're devastated. Yeah. I mean, um, this week's action at PFL, Du Booy. And I know, I know, I know. know a lot of people in the US aren't keen on PFL, but if you're ever going to give it a chance, I am telling you, this is the one to have a look at. They have the marquee guy, of course, in Dubai at the top of the card,

that is Usman Amaga Madoff. You all know that Paul Hughes tried and failed twice to beat this man in Dubai. A lot of Irish people feel a certain way about that, you know, this being Usman's home ground. Alfie Davis, a man who shocked the world to win that lightweight tournament, he is coming up and he's poking all kinds of fingers into the chest. of team, Namaama Madoff. I was speaking to him out of this week. He is fucking calling

Habib out. He's saying, you know, Hughes did shit in the second fight. Why is he acting hurt from a headbut between rounds and getting kicked in the balls? Don't, don't be like that, Paul. That is what Alvi Davis is saying. He's also saying, you know, he wants to make it grueling. He feels like he's hit this new level in his mindset and in his training now that he's moved to GB top team. He used to represent London shoe fighters with MVP and Norby and all those guys. but that is a very interesting fight at the top book. Please, if you have not seen Shamil Mossoyev, who was fighting for the vacant welterweight championship

in the Khamane event against undefeated Kermagamadov, please check him out. This guy, right back from his KSW days when I first saw him, is the most anti-Russian fighter you could ever imagine. Like, he is not wrestling. What does that mean? He is a Russian dude who doesn't wrestle, and he fucking kills wrestlers.

Wrestlers will try and come in this guy, just need him in the face, uppercuts, he's a nightmare. And he does this, like, this is his thing. He fights wrestlers

and they go, what am I meant to do with this guy? He is 20, 0 and 1, really, really good. He's against an of,

a doff, you know, against a man who's, you know, name does finish with DOV, which we usually have on the truck

right there. We don't want to touch that, but. That's usually a good bet for your parlay. Don't do it this week. Okay. Because Masayef,

I am telling you, of course he's going to those now after me hamming this upsop. But he is a fucking savage. But you know that he's probably sparred with, like when you say he's anti-Russian, he's spard with the regular Russians who like, you know, and they're, they're going to do what they do. So maybe he's got something figured out.

Maybe he becomes the blueprint. He kind of, remember Albert Toonoff was like that as well? He had that big left hook. He, he's kind of like that, but he's more of a tie guy. Like a lot of kicks. He's very direct, just straight shots, nothing fancy. but he he usually has these wrestlers

huffing and puffing by the end of the first round. They have attempted so many takedowns are just like, well, fuck. Now he's just going to beat the shit out of me, isn't he? It sounds like Sharra bullet. See, the Sharboleet, like with two good eyes this time? You described somebody as an anti-Russian fighter, and I go, what are you talking?

I'm not you or chug, you know what I mean? I have ways to do these things. It's a bit hamfisted, but what are you going to do? Lazy King is on the card as well. A massive draw in France. He is a huge deal over there. He was a big signing for them. Taylor Lappellus,

another great French fighter on the card. It's going to be a good one. You like Alfie Davies' chances here, Pizzi. Do you know what? He's a cheeky chippy chappy from North London. He's a bit of a bollocks, as we'd say, in Ireland. And do you know what's interesting about him? He was this fucking blue-chip prospect when he came on the scene for us.

like, I mean, searing hot to the point where he signed for Bellator, I think it was like 2016, 2017. And he was so shit hot that he was only like maybe four and all at the time or something. They couldn't get guys to fight him. They were just like, this guy is too good, blah, blah, blah. He had some tricky fights. I think he lost a Barnoy, Mansour Barnwee recently. And he was kind of saying to me, I wanted to retire then.

And I didn't. And now I'm after having all this success. But I do feel like that's something that happens with fighters. I think they put so much pressure on themselves for so long to be perfect and achieve all this fame and glory. And they get to a certain stage in their career where they go, it's not going to happen, you know. How do I feel about that? I don't know. But, you know, I'm just going to keep on going.

Fuck it. I've turned into a samurai now. If I die, I die. You know, this is, this is what I'm fighting for who I am. I am fighting for the Davis family. I am fighting for my lineage. And they take on a different shape. And I believe that's where he is now.

like this guy's blocking take downs in that tournament final with spinning elbows. Like he, he is a fucking really good fighter. He's allowed to do his shit, but Usman is a savage. He is so under underestimated. He's so underrated I feel in the global scheme of things with MMA. One thing I will say is I have a feeling he's going to look to go to the UFC

and kind of reclaim that lightweight title that Islam has parroted ways with the Habib used to have. And I think that is very, very dangerous for the PFL because these are this massive deal with Dubai and Dubai want this guy fighting at the top of the card. And you would have to wonder in a time where we're looking at PFL and we're saying like a lot is writing on this year, like what will come of the PFL if they don't hit some rich vein of form this year? If they can't wrap up Usman Amaga Madoff and wrap up another contractor with Dubai based on having that guy and having the pull to get 10,000 plus people into that Coca-Cola in Dubai, I think that is going to be very tricky.

So his name is full of champions, man. Usman and Armaghameda. But is he represented by Ollie as well. You bet. A name like that. Yeah. You're right. That doesn't make sense.

Pizzi tell me, when you describe somebody as a cheeky chappy, if he heard you call him that, if he heard you call him that, would he be like, how dare you? Or would he be like, yeah, no, I am, I'm pretty cheeky chippy chappy. It's like a lovable rogue. Okay. All right. You know, you're like, ah, you little. It's not like you rat bastard.

It's, you know, like, okay. Completely different sort of the scale there. That bastard, he's probably going to shank me on the street. You don't talk to police around here. I'm sorry, I'm said too much. I've said too much. But yeah, check it out. It's going to be a very good fight.

I'm interested to see how it goes. I think Hughes has given people a good blueprint, even though he was unsuccessful. I thought he won. But, you know, I'm wearing those green tinted glasses too. I must say. But it's going to be interesting. Check it out. Take out Shemiel Masayev and tell me if I was fucking wrong. I know he's Will

because you're the lovely people like that. Elsewhere, the meta apex guys, I mean, Mario Bautista and Lock Dog there up top. You got Kyoji, Horaguchi and Amir al-Bazi. Jolton Al-Meda. That's right. Heavyweight is back, Ben. I don't know what that mailbag was.

I mean, oh, you wanted it. Here it is. You know, what's happening to the heavyweight division. Excuse me. Jolten al-Mata is fighting Riz van Koon. Sounded up. Cuneiv.

We don't say Kiev anymore. We say Keev, so his name is Kenev. And so yeah, what do you have to say about that, Ben? Heavyweight's back, baby. I remember Jailton Almeida's last fight. Do you?

Unfortunately, I did not have a very good time. He's the one. He's the one. These heavyweight fights, that was a good example of one. The Tai Taitwivas, Talish, Tashira one was a good example. way just to put it out there.

Six straight, still number 15. She tells you that we just don't know that the names of that many heavyweights in the UFC right now. Those are the kinds of fights where I go, here's where you could start spreading the rumor. Gamblers messed up and accidentally paid both guys to lose. Wires got crossed. Maybe different illegal gambling syndicates paid each guy.

and nobody wanted to win these fights. You know, I was actually saying that on the post show last week was a very bad folks point I made about Toy Tuw I Vassa when he walked out. And I saw that number 12 beside his name and I was like, oh, number 12? Let me just have a look at this record. Foy fight losing streak or something on the way. He's dropped to 15 now. He's clinging on the edge of the cliff.

He loses one more. He may drop out of that top 15. He may drop out of it. So, lads, if you were to prioritize viewing this weekend, knucklemania is involved as well, okay? You have these three events. You have the meta apex reborn in 2026, which, you know, look at Ben's face again.

He is absolutely. The apex just bums me out. The meta-a-fi-wise, the meta-apex, please, Ben, okay? The card is not bad, but the venue is like. The card is not bad, but the vibe is just going to be a real bus kill, man. Yeah, he's right. That is the biggest deterrent. Like you don't want to, the apex cards just have that same feel to me at this point, too.

It's just they could be good fights, but you're like, ah, man, there's no environment there. It's just sleepy. I play Pink Floyd while I'm watching it and just be like, you know, zone out, kind of hypnotize myself with the comments. It sounds like you're describing a different viewing experience, I think. I don't know what's going on over there. You know, I'm going to say, PFL, bright and early boys. Yeah. Number one.

It's on a good time. All right. That's, that's number one for me. You see, this is the thing with knucklemania, right? There is some kind of weird voyeurism

that comes over me with noclemia. I want to see McGregor having that very enthusiastic walkout. You know that enthusiasm I'm talking about? Yeah, I'm familiar with that kind of enthusiasm. That frenetic. You used to see it a lot in the disco texts in the 70s and 80s. Yeah,

I mean, there is some part of me that love seeing that enthusiastic. And then the Mets dug out in 86. But anyways, go ahead, pizza, go ahead. But I will say, like, the lads went, the boys in the back went, and they said, like, to go to one of these events is completely different to, like, UFC event.

They don't know who the fighters are. A lot of the people there, they're just like, we are here to see blood spilling. Well, also, I don't know. I watched this press conference that they did yesterday from Philadelphia, because I have a story, I'm not today, about Ben Rothwell and Andre Olavski, doing it again, again. Like that you had to justify this, though. It's like, wait, before we get carried away, I was doing a story, all right?

Yeah, because it was like noon my time on a workday. I got to justify how I'm spending my time. But I was watching it and it's like, you were just going to see so many different approaches to self-promotion. You're going to see so many different approaches to being a human being. Just watching Knucklemania, BKSC press comments because it's like, okay, here's one guy who's going to just show up without a shirt on. in a giant cold chain. Here's another guy who has brought some kind of baked goods that he seems to want to throw. That's kind of his whole thing.

You got the elder statesman like Ben Rothwell and Andre Aloski, who both just look, like, at times you see their faces and they're just like, these fucking kids. I can't believe I have to sit here and listen to this. And then you've got a women's fight where some fan got up there and he was like, can you guys tell me I heard a rumor that after this fight you guys are going to get on only fans together and have a different kind of knuckle mania. And I was just like, oh my God, did you really just say that knowing,

like on camera and into a microphone. And then it's like two minutes later, Andrei Rolowski is talking about being a three-minute or a three-time cancer survivor and being very serious about it. And you're just like, my, I feel like I got whiplash being knocked back and forth between so many different lived experiences here.

That's the kind of chaos that a BKFC thing. is going to give you. And think about Rothwell and Arlovsky, man. You talk about guys who've seen some shit in their day. Oh, my God. Yeah. Think about the affliction. They're at a yeah, yeah. But they went way back before then. That's crazy, man. The thing that was wild to me when I was talking to Ben Rothwell about it, and I kind of get what he was saying because he was

just like, I'm 44, he's 47. And as much as, you know, especially for Ben Rothwell, who is 0 in that series, he wants to go and get one back. And also he was saying at some point, he's like, you know, I know if I lose this one, people going to be looking like, hey, can you just never figure out how to beat this fucking guy? Like, why can't you get at least one win?

And he should, right? He's been doing bare knuckle longer. He's had a chance to really figure out that world. He's the younger man this time, which should really pay into his benefit. But he was also sort of saying, like, I can't really even get mad at him as a rival or like as a long time enemy because I think about it. And it's just like, it feels like a person that he's just been in your life for so long. You guys have known each other for so long.

And he's like, I look back at it and I think, man, we both got really good paydays in affliction. We got paid again when we fought in the UFC. We're getting paid again fighting now. Like, Andre has helped my material situation in life. We've done good business together. So how mad can I really get at the guy? And you know how it is.

Sometimes I find myself thinking the same way where you're just like, you've been in one industry, like this one for so long. You see some of the other people who have been in it, even if you didn't necessarily have the fondest feelings for them at some point in the past. At some point, you just know them. And you're just like, there's a comfort there. Like, I'm still in it. He's still in it.

Here we go. Especially when you look around and like, you look to your right. There's a guy with no shirt on. You look to your left. There's a guy throwing baked goods. And you're like, me and Andre have a lot more in common with each other than we do these guys. Yeah. It's, um, there's a question that I can't help but ask at this stage.

And that is, what moisturers are you using, Ben? What the fuck is going on there? Are you injecting yourself with something? Is this like a death, death becomes her situation? What's going on here? What are you suggesting? I don't, I mean, you're talking about, you know, Rothwell, Arlowski and the grizzle veterans. You hit us with your birth here at the start and you still look like your 25.

What's the going on? Well, I don't. You look younger than me and I am a decade younger than you. What the fuck? I have not endured quite as much scar tissue as those guys. So that helps. Also, it helps when you're, for a living, you're a writer and you just stay inside out of the sun a whole lot. That just...

What the hell happened to this then? What happened to this? Can someone answer the question? I'm going to say that the nation of Ireland. That's my explanation for that. We get born with shoot on faces out here. You know what I mean? We saw the picture of you when you were nine years old or whatever, like looking like you're about ready to shiv somebody on the street for a tenor.

I was slanging back then. I'm joking. Um, lads, speaking of great stories, Ben, you have an absolute doozy up there on the uncrown website here. The tale of two ton Tony. I don't have the exact headline there. Sorry, that's what I just called it for shorthand. There we go. Tutant Tony and the Brown Bomber, how a 1939 heavyweight first became a title fight that gripped the nation.

This is an exceptional read. I don't want to give away all the fantastic details, but there is one passage where you describe this contender, five foot eight, 225 pounds, I believe he is, taking on Joe. 235, sorry, excuse me.

You do tell us that he ate 52 hot dogs and fell asleep in a picture house, which is something I can relate to. It did it on the day of the fight. And that he apparently it was a $10 bet. He won $10 for doing this, where somebody was just like,

you can't eat 50 hot dogs. And not only did he eat the 50 hot dogs, then he ate two more extra just to kind of prove the point that he could do it. And then had some time to kill before weigh-ins, went to the movies, sat there and fell asleep. And they finally found him because he missed the way-ins. And his manager came looking for him. And at the movies, they were just like, oh, yeah, we think we know where he is. The guy said he was snoring like a scuba diver and had slept through like two movies.

And so they woke him up. And even then when they got him to the arena to fight, said they had the slit the waistband of his shorts to get it on it around his waist because his belly was so swollen from eating all the hot dogs and he also he owned a bar in orange new jersey where he was from and it became like a very popular bar because of his fame and it's the kind of thing where you go i can't tell if you're the best person to own a bar or the worst person to own a bar because it's going to put you yes yeah it's going to put you in this environment that is it's not good for you but also you were kind of born to do this and

And just his local reputation was such that people would be like, I want to go down there and just see. Because you're going to get a glimpse of the guy. He's probably going to be tended bar. He's going to be there. You get to actually see for yourself this larger than life character. He also, though, was known when he worked this bar for being very, very cheap. Even with his friends and family, like he would get his friends and family to work behind

the bar for him at times. His brother had worked behind the bar for him. And at one point, his brother went to get a pack of cigarettes and he was like, that'll be 15 cents. And his brother was like, are you fucking kidding me? You're going to charge me for this pack of cigarettes after everything I've done. And later, I think one of his later fights where he fought both the Bayer brothers, Max and Buddy, and one of those fights, maybe it was the Max Bayer one.

His brother beforehand was like, give me a ticket for that fight. And he told him, you can stand in line and buy a ticket with everybody else. His brother threw a beer bottle at his face, cut him open and had to get stitched clothes and everything. And then, you know, it was a few days before the fight. went out there, the cut immediately opened back up in the fight, took a pretty good beating. But it was just sort of like, that was the guy he was no, he was, you did not come to see that guy fight to see boxing excellence. You didn't come for technical precision. You see clips of him. And you're just like, this guy looks like he kind of can't fight at all. But he was just like a tough

dude, a character who everybody loved to hear from, and he could hit. And he'd go out there, maybe sometimes take a beating for three, four rounds, land one good left hook. and win. And you can see how people would get into that. You know, even now, especially it's like, it's so familiar to us, you see a guy where you're like, there's a dominant champion. He's beat everybody. It makes sense for him to fight, but he still's got to fight somebody. And it doesn't take long in those situations even now for a promoter go, give us an oddity, give us an attraction, you know, give us somebody. Yeah, give us somebody who's just going to sell some tickets and talk up a good fight, even if that could fight maybe doesn't always materialize.

What would be the equivalent of a guy knocking down Joe Lewis in the third round who has no chance like that? Francis and Ghani? Toyov also like downing John Jones, like it like sending him to the bed at one point early in a fight. Like what would be our equivalent? I feel like it's hard to even contextualize it at this point. Yeah.

Yeah. Chiseled to be involved in this example. I mean, definitely it would be somebody from the heavyweight division because we've seen a lot of, uh, there's a spectrum of talent. and a specks of my body types that you see sort of on display there. Knocking down Tyson.

Yeah. Yes. Do you know what I was thinking when I was reading it? And I was seeing pictures of two ton tony. And, you know, he's 5 foot 8. He's 2.35. The way he's described,

and you've done a great job of outlining of this in the piece, like, people are like, oh, look at this guy. He's the fattest man in the world. I was like, he wouldn't be all that impressive before in 2016. No. You know?

There's a well-billed gentleman. Yeah. Definitely not. Sports writers at the time, they did absolutely love to just have a lot of fun describing a fat guy. They felt no. Is it the false staff of? Yeah, yeah. They called him the false staff of pugilism.

One of the guys was saying that he has, his training camp has gotten him into a shape previously unknown to science. And, you know, they love to spend a lot of. Inc. doing that and not feel at all bad about it. That is an interesting difference between then and now. I also don't think it's crazy that 40 million people listened to this fight on the radio. It was a time, you know, before TV, before live broadcasts, the sports events were even a thing on TV. And it was after the time period where, you know, watching a fight on, like going to a movie theater months afterwards to see the film on the fight. that heyday had kind of come and gone.

But it was live radio broadcasts for the thing. Almost everybody in America owned a radio. I think one of the stats that I came across was something along the lines of the number of radios in America was greater than the number of cars and various other personal devices combined. It was just everybody had a radio. All the radios were on. And that you could just become a famous guy. in America just by enough newspaper writers are fascinated by you, enough people have heard of you, even if they are not really like fight fans.

And there was an aside from one of these things where Orson Wells was doing very well at the time and he had put on a production of Julius Caesar and these actor who starred as Julius Caesar in it was trying to tell him like, hey, or so you're doing pretty well. You're almost as famous as Tony Galento. And that made sense at the time. Now it's like people I've never heard of Tony Galento. Even boxing fans don't know who Tony Galentor is. It's like 40 million people.

It was like eight times what the UFC pulled on the Paramount Plus, you know, 324. You know what I mean? And there were considerable fewer people in America then. Imagine how monoculture, when you talk about that, you think about everybody gathering around one event. That's crazy. What a time that must have been, man. Yeah. And I also think that it's worth noting the familiar arc afterwards because he has this big fight.

His manager, Joe Jacobs, who was a fascinating figure just in his own right, you know, hours after the fight, is just already angling for a rematch, already saying the stuff that everybody says now we're like, hey, we lied to you and we said he was training hard. But next time, you give us another shot. This time he'll really train hard, you know, all that kind of stuff. And then he ends up finding his way, basically,

into pro wrestling, ends up finding his way into various, like, fighting adjacent novelty acts where he's like, he's going to box a kangaroo. He's going to box a bear. Got into a giant tank on the, like, Seattle waterfront to wrestle

an octopus, which it seems like maybe when he agreed to, he did not totally understand, you will have to get all the way in the water to do this. And he kind of balked at that when he saw the size of the tank. And they're like, look, man, a bunch of people showed up, you got to get in that water. And he did. And the octopus immediately sprayed him with ink. And so no one could see anything anyway. He won, guys. He knocked out.

He's killed the octopus. So it's a trend, by the way, with Ben's like centerpieces of these, these historic books. Wasn't it the Primo? then you did Primo Canara like that one too. These are guys that are these strange anomalies in the fight game, you know, from 100 years ago. They're excellent stuff though, man. It's, I love being able to kind of educate myself on those old flyers. I love reading about him anyway, you know what I mean?

Yeah, you can actually feel Ben's enthusiasm. Like in the first paragraph, he's like, he is buzzing to write this. And what's great about this article as well, he has historic snippets in there as well. And I love doing it when I'm, even when I'm reading all boxing books, when they reference a fight, try and find if the footage is there because the footage, there is a lot of footage

of these classic boxing matches. Not all of them. It lured me into one situation where I was listening to commentary from one of two ton tonne's fights. But it's all just magical stuff. It's from a boygone era and it's really, really great.

If you're looking for, I used to love reading like a big feature on a Sunday and they used to come in the newspapers that have the big sports supplement with the 2000 or 3,000 word feature. make this thing your Sunday supplement, guys. We got to get back to like nicknaming fighters ourselves, just like the writers didn't like that.

We never do that, right? With Bobby Knuckles, that was that you, Ben? Yeah, yeah. Well, that was one of our CME listeners who did that. I'll tell you what, though, you know, I enjoy really like getting into the research and reading these and looking for all the sources and stuff, but I tell you, when I'm finally done with them

and I publish on, the person who is glad to have it over and done with is my wife who is just like, that means she can stop hearing about. about this because it's been weeks of me, you know, looking up from this book and be like, listen to this, you know, and reading. Check this out. She's glad to have it over with, I'm sure. That's funny, man.

Until the next one. Yeah. How long? Yeah. How long does the whole process take? And it's tough because it's like, you know, you start out just, I love like old boxing history stuff from all different times of eras. And so you stumble upon some story about some guy.

You don't know if it's going to be worth, you know, a whole big feature on it. But then, you know, through that, you hear about some other guy, you hear about some other story, some other weird fight. And it takes a while to kind of like zero in on something and then looking for like the good books. And a lot of the thing that makes me sad is there are some some really good boxing history books out there. And a lot of them are just out of print. They're really hard to find. And then when you do find them, you go, this is excellent. Somebody did a really excellent job with this.

It should be more well known. It should be a lot easier to find. And it's a little bit of a bummer that it's not. Yeah, and on that actually, just and aside from that, I'm reading Mark Craigel's book on Tyson and it's like the third Tyson book I've read and I wasn't really like, I was like, what could I possibly learn

you know, about this guy? It's blown my mind. I think it was texting Chuck about it. I was like, this is, I thought I knew everything about Tyson's early life. This is, it's actually crazy how much I'm picking up from this book and learning. Still, this guy who has been explored and so many different documentaries, motion pictures. As I said, I think this is the third or fourth book of read about Tyson.

It's absolutely unbelievable. It's called Baddus. Tomato, right? Like they kind of, you can learn stuff about him. So I want to check it out. I've got it on my, I got on my stack right here. It's like I knew some of the dark arts of Customato, but never in this detail. Never in the detail that Kregel's doing here.

It's absolutely brilliant. It's called Baddest Man. I advise everyone to check it out if they can. And with that, lads, that is the end of this. this week's episode of The Crack, you have the PFL Dubai card, Knucklemania. And of course, the return of the meta apex, Ben, not just the apex, okay? The meta apex. And I've nearly forgot that we also look at Super Chats on this show.

Oh, I was waiting. I was waiting for the music to come in. I was like, here we go. Come on, Jordan, you're going to pull the trigger quicker. We've got him. Connor X Max 2 BMF headliner for the White House. I mean, they'd love it. I don't think it would go very well for Connor McGregor,

and I don't know what weight class it would happen at, but does that supersede? If that happens, boys, is that the main event? BMF toil. What are you trying to say? It's not a real total? Come on, mate. Don't go down.

Don't fall into that trial that Ariel Wani fell into recently, okay? Well, Max's got other business. Got some pressing business first to attend to there with Charles Hulliver. So I guess that's in March. Yeah, I think so, right? March. That would be a quick turnaround. Yeah, I mean, I would, I believe he could potentially do it.

Then again, Max Holloway is known for having me. He didn't have a lot of short fights. You know, you book him for five rounds. He's going to go out there, even if he gets a finish in the final second. He's going to give you a whole lot of fighting. He's going to throw a whole lot of punches and his fists are going to have to absorb a whole lot of punches. So, but I don't know. If you imagine, come onto him, you know, right out, he comes right out of the cage, say he beats Charles Oliver and somebody says, you want to turn right around, fight Connor McGregor at the White House.

Can you imagine him saying no to that? No, absolutely. not. It's at middleweight anyway. Don't worry about the way you're fine mate. Anything else, Jordan? Great show guys. Go Patriots. You watching Pizzi and I see you're a Boston fan at 24 inch dubs. I know you well. Yes, I will be watching and you know, it's just not got the juices flowing for me. I'm not going to I'm not going to like to you. The matchup wise you mean? You just can't get interested in these two teams? I like a bit of fucking narrative, you know? And I know that Drake May is could be the

next Tom Brady he's taking this franchise, the New England Patriots, in a direction that nobody expected them to. You have Sam Darnold who let go from so many teams. Vikings just went off you go buddy. I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure it's going to go wealthy in Seattle. He's in the Super Bowl now.

I love Jackson Smith and Jigba. He's fantastic. You know, I kind of hope Sam Donald wins. I'm sorry 24 inch jobs. And I think my pick is JSN is going to be the MVP. No quarterback this year. Return to Flair players, three touchdowns for Jassad.

I feel like we still all have like Patriots fatigue, man. They're on too many Super Bowls. It's like it's too familiar. Yeah, but wouldn't there be something kind of weirdly nice about Bill Belichick oversaw such a terrible decline. Then he leaves and almost right away they're good again. They're back. That'd be a great little FU.

to Bill Belichick. Yeah. Here's what I want to know, Pizzi. What's your snack situation? Are you prepared to snack like an American while watching the Super Bowl? Because that is at least 50% of it. I did it. I did it.

Like, we had parties before. I'm not going to have a party this year. I'm going to get me dot around. We'll just get like a shitload of pizza or something. Oh, come on. Come on. What time is kickoff for you? What time is it?

I think. Damn. See? That's prime wing eating time, my man. So what is it? Like, give me three things and I'll get them. I'll send you a picture. All right.

Here's what I'm planning, because I'm having some friends over for this one. And I, uh, I'm closer to, Keezy. I mean, I'm making a few different types of wings, including one sauce of my own design.

Wow. Just, just mixing up various sauces. It's a little, it's almost like general sow's chicken, but on, on chicken wings. I'm very excited about it.

We only do buffalo. flavor here. That is the only wings I can do. Jesus Christ. I'll get them. I'll get them. Then I'll send you the recipe for my grandmother's cheese dip. It will clog your arteries. It will shorten your life expectancy. Right. Damage has been done already as you can see. It's a good time. Nobody. People show up to in this cheese dip is out. My friends who who I have

experienced before like, hell yeah, I was hoping you'd make this cheese dip. Other people who come in and see it for the first time are like, I don't know. And then the next thing you know, they're just basically face down in the cheese did nobody can resist it uh those those are the two big ones for me you know making shit though man i'm sorry right and a nice checks mix if you can text mix what is a text mix check checks mix it's like uh you know those i don't even know they're like little crackers or something okay okay i'm kidding about that you don't want that shit no you don't no no i'm gonna get confused i'm gonna get wings and pizza boys is that okay is that american no it's pretty american yeah Yeah.

Crack open a bud light, you know. Look, and it hurts, it hurts his spirit to think of it. Yeah. Yeah. Probably going to be too hung over to drink. But, um, okay. Yeah, all right. I'm excited.

Right, this got me a bit, this got the juices flowing a bit. Um, Bill Belichick was robbed. He should be in the Hall of Fame. It shouldn't matter where you want to put parts of your anatomy, regardless of, you know, I don't know. I don't think it's, I think it's less. I think it's less the parts of anatomy and more the parts of dignity. 24-in-olds, I apologize.

I think Bill Belichick should have been a first ball of Hall of Famer. It's a fucking disgrace. He made it. That's good enough. That's one representative of 19. That's good. Come on. I see an Irish guy over there in America.

Sam Ronson, I believe his name is. He voted for Justin Herbert to win the MVP, which cost Drake May, the MVP. And people are after him. Yeah, saw him. Yeah. I don't know. That's some dunce work right there. I don't fucking off.

But listen, I'll talk to him with show you. I don't know how to end the show. I love his all very much. See you next week. Oh, no. One more. Sorry. Okay.

Mix feelings about Lonair getting the call. On one hand, if he gets the upset, you have another English star on your hands. But risk is an air seg like fall if he loses. Do you all think it's worth it? We're talking about Lonair Cavner here. Let me just pull. you handle that one, Pizzi. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, this guy, unbelievable prospect fighting out of London. He is fighting Moreno, yes. It is, you see, he had that hype, you know, that Aaron Pico hype when as soon as you get to the UFC, like, this guy could, this guy could fight for the total right now. And you're like, he's very young, you know, and he has only fought in Cage Warriors. And we have seen how that goes, gets a big knockout on Contender Series, which gets him in there, two decisions, then a loss to Charles Johnson.

And now you're going to give him Brandon Morano. I mean, I think that's very tough sledding for a young prospect personally. He's a great fighter, but, you know, it's Brandon Moreno, that's, what do you want me say? That's tough. That's tough. Oh, shit. Better be it better to be a cheeky chappy or a jammy plunker. Plunker's very UK thing to say.

You, plunkah. It's like, that sounded Australian somehow. There used to be a show called Only Fools and Horses on the Cats. Frasers was, Rodney U. Plunker. You'd be calling it Rodney a Plunker. Like, you're an idiot. Idiot, okay. Chicky Chippy is better than a Plunker, I think.

Okay. I don't know. Stay joined. Clearly, that's it, Pizzi. What are we waiting on here? All right. Thank you so much. Enjoy a brilliant weekend of fights.

You got PFL, Duboy, you got Nooklmania, and the return of the meta apex. What a name. We love you so much. See you next week. Ma!