The Ariel Helwani Show - Inside Boxing | Shakur Stevenson’s next fight, Oleksandr Usyk’s all-time status, weekend results

Episode Date: March 22, 2026

This week Dan Canobbio is joined by boxing personality Naji Grampus for a fun conversation based around the biggest topics in the sport. The guys begin reacting to Carlos Adames and Lester Martinez’s big wins and forecast what's next (01:38). Next up, Dan and Naji debate who could potentially give Shakur Stevenson his toughest fight, who he might fight next, and if a mega fight with Gervonta 'Tank' Davis could ever come to fruition (22:10). The conversation then moves to the heavyweight division, where Oleksandr Usyk is ready to fight kickboxer Rico Verhoeven for the WBC title. Is this fight warranted? Will Usyk fight Agit Kabayel? Where does Usyk rank among the all-time greats (42:22)? Finally, the guys discuss the upcoming fight between Sebastian Fundora and Keith Thurman at 154 pounds (1:00:43).

All right, everyone, welcome in. It's another episode of Inside Boxing. I'm Dan Kenobio. That is not Chris Algeri. Chris is traveling. We tapped the next best thing in boxing business. He's Najee Grampus. You know him from Cigar Talk.

He's very locked in, and I'm excited to do this. We've been wanting to do this for a really long time. Before we get into it, it is Fight Week. PpV.com. Keith Thurman versus Sebastian Fondora, March 28th, live interactive chat. I will be leading that. So if you're going to order the fight, please do it with us. PbV.com.

You can stream the fight on your tablet. You can stream the fight on your phone, big screen TV. No subscriptions, very clear stream. And I mentioned the live and direct to chat, which I will be in hosting, taking all your questions. It's a really, really cool way to watch a big fight. And we got a big one on Saturday night

with Sebastian Fondor and Keith one-time Thurman, who you were able to speak with last week. So let's bring in our fabulous co-host, guest co-host, Naji, Grampus of Sagar Talk. Thanks a lot, bro, for stepping in. Nah, man. Thank you, bro. I'm definitely not Chris Algeri, but salute to Chris. But yeah, man, I appreciate the invite, bro. Yeah, it's great to have you. Been wanting to do this for a long time. We've had plans to do some content together, but you know how the boxing business works. Things get in the way.

We're going to do it now. We're going to get it popping. Let's go with it. We'll start. from what we saw last night. And in the super middleweight division, we'll start there. Oh, excuse me, middleweight division will start there. With Carlos Adomis defeated Amel Williams. Adamas dropped Williams in the second round. He then cruised to a UD win. It was a good performance from Adomis.

He's very powerful. He's very fast. He showed why he's the best at middleweight right now and what is a very, very weak division. And Amel Williams was all heart. The dude was overmatched. and yet he was still standing when that final bell ring, face was all, you know, mashed up.

But this, to me, was Adamas looking like the best middleweight currently in boxing today. Yeah, Dan, I mean, I have to agree. I think Adamas put on, you know, dominating performance. He dominated ammo. I mean, being quite frank, I don't think anyone necessarily had ammo beating Adamez. Ammo is a guy, like you said, a guy with heart. He does have some punch in power. isn't the most skilled guy, but he's determined with a lot of power.

I mean, Adama's handled them well. I think overall, he is the best middleweight due to a technicality. There's an asterisk because the guy who I was thinking was the best middleweight just popped recently. So I'm very sad to back. Yeah, Janibak, man. Geez. Talk about messing up the back. Janibak was, looked like for a second he was in line to fight Crawford.

The Crawford's going to go back to 160. he's got two belts, and then he's popped for PEDs get stripped, which you don't really see too often in boxing, which I think was the right move. You know, if you're going to do PEDs, usually it's a slap on the wrist in the boxing. Six months you're out. These guys don't fight for six months. So what's really the touring, what's stopping these guys from doing PEDs?

But yeah, the middleweight division is not great. This isn't our dad, this isn't our grandfather's middleweight division. And in fact, it's very, very porous because you got Connor, Ben, ranked fourth. If you look at the Ring magazine right now, yeah, Janubeck is pop for PEDs. You know, Adamas is on top, obviously. And then there's Arizona Lara, who is 43, 44 years old, at least on paper. And also, we'll never fight Carlos Adamas because they had the same trainer. And I just posted something on socials where, you know, I should have asked them, like, all right, if you win this fight, Lara, it's from his last fight on the pit bull and roach card.

I said, will you ever fight Carlos Adamas? He just should have said, no. Like, we have the same trainer. So we're not going to see the two best middleweights. I think you can agree is Lara and Adamas. So what is Adamas doing? I saw he just tweeted that he's going to maybe go up to 168, which I think he should do. I mean, he's not going to go down to 154.

Some people were suggesting that. It's very rare you see a guy move down, especially, you know, over the age of 30. So I think 168 for Adamas is a really smart move. Yeah, I think that makes the most. sense. You know, I think there is one more guy who I rate highly at 160 to me is the dark horse. And that's Yo-Yo Hernandez. I think the guy that yo-yo, he's looking like a beast. I was there for his last fight. And I think he thought, was it, Karan Davis? I was there. And that was a beating, man. That was brutal. I was in the second row. Like,

send help. Throw the guy. I was about to throw it in towel myself. Like, that was crazy. But he's a guy who I would like to see Adamez fight before leaving a division. But yeah, I agree. 168 seems eminent. And, yeah, Lara, he's 44 on paper. And, you know, the Cubans, you never know what they're on paper. You never know. There's guys that on paper might be a certain age because, you know, how it is with Cuba.

Yeah. So for all intensive purposes, Lara might be 52, man. We don't know. He's got, yeah, I, well, I was looking at him up close. So I was like, damn, like you don't look 42, like 43 years old. He's just like an unbelievable talent, Lara. But if you're not going to unify right now, then what exactly are we doing? Yeah, Yo-Yo Hernandez is a beast.

He's not going to know with seven knockouts. It's very good, but he's not tested and he's not, he's unknown. So I don't know if Adamas will want to go that route. Like, what does he gain from that type of fight? You know, it's a low risk, it's a, you know, high risk, low reward. I never get that right. high risk, low reward type of fight for Adamas that I just don't see him doing. But, you know, 168, you know, he can get in there and mix it up with some of the guys there.

Yeah, I think so. I mean, 168 definitely has some guys. I mean, to be honest, I think the rematch that everyone wants to see is Carlos Adamas and Hamza Shiraz, man. Like that right there was very controversial. I thought I had Ademis edge in the fight out. So, man, I feel like that one would be great next. I know when I saw him speaking about it in the past, he was like, I'll do it, but I ain't going to Saudi Arabia to do it. And you can't blame the guy to be honest.

So hopefully that comes to fruition. I want to see that fight again. I don't think anyone's going to Saudi anytime soon. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of issues in the Middle East. Like the flag football game that was on yesterday, it was supposed to be in Saudi and that got moved. And a lot of the UFC events are in the Gulf or might be moving.

So you might not be seeing any fights in Saudi anytime soon. But yeah, the Shiraz fight, I thought Adamas won that fight. And, you know, that's a draw on his, on his ledger. And then he's come so far since the Tashara loss, which is 2019. And I forget that. He's only 31 years old, Adams. Like, he's got wins over Dervinchenko, and, you know, he handled Dervinchenko. And then Julian Williams, Terrell, Gausha, Shiraz.

So he's on a nice little run right now. And, you know, 31, he can now go into 168 where there's some higher profile fights. speaking of that. How do you rate him, Dan? How do you rate Ademez? Is he the high level to you? Is this guy, are we knocking at the elite level door? Where do you rate him in the scope of boxing today?

I would rate him pretty highly. I mean, look at that. I mean, he's got a really good power shots. You know, he's very elusive in there. He's just a well-rounded fighter. And for some reason, doesn't get, like, the major push. But you see some from some other fighters. Like, you look at him and you see a guy that,

that should get more, should get more of a push. Like should be mentioned among the top. But he doesn't. He just needs to find a dance partner. I mean, the Shiraz, that should have been his coming out party. And unfortunately, it wasn't. So, you know, and then he comes back and, you know, he's got the problems with the weight in his last fight. That didn't help.

He could have been fighting on a huge card. What was, he was supposed to be fighting on the Shakur card. And, you know, that falls through. So that would have been a big push for him to fight at the garden, and fight in front of a bigger audience than when we saw on Saturday night. I'm happy that matchroom and they got this right back on and they were able to find a home for it. Because, you know, that probably did not make a lot of money last night fighting over in Orlando on that. But, you know, it kept the line moving.

But I think it's really good. I think he should be mentioned among the top. And I think at 168, he can make a lot of noise. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. Listen, all the belts are up, up for grabs now at 168. You know, everybody get a strap. The straps are available. But again, there is one guy.

You know, I'm the high risk, low reward guy. There is another guy named Iglesias at 168. No one's a man. I'm scared of him, Dan. Like me, I am scared. I wouldn't put my fighter near this guy. That guy is scary. And I think everyone at 168 is going to have to see him.

So, you know, this is a lot of stiff competition if Adama's moves up. Yeah, he's a beast. And no one wants to fight him. He's had the, he's fighting for the IVF title, vacant title. no one wants to fight the guy. I think they went through three or four different contenders before one guy signed on the dotted line. He's a beast.

But you're right. Like these are guys that have, unfortunately don't have a profile, but they're very, very good. And in today's streaming world where we're going to see everyone, like they will get chances, and then you can watch them.

And it's just, it's very top-heavy, now with boxing. You want to see the biggest names. Everyone wants to talk about the same five or six guys, and they don't want to talk about some of the better talent in there. You can potentially see Zander Zayas move to 160. That's a good.

That's good. I like that. I like that, actually. I've been hearing talks about Zander and Boots. I don't know how real this is or if it's just Internet fodder, but I've been hearing the talks, man. Talks are getting louder. When there's smoke, there's fire. I do want to talk about that later on.

But I do think there's a pretty good chance we see Boots in Zias. Let's go over to 168 pounds. Lester Martinez with a nice win over Emmanuel Alim, who, show to have a granite chin and to be very tough. I thought Lester was going to be able to get a Liam out of there in the second half of the fight. But he cruises to a UD win. Unbelievable atmosphere in San Bernardino. The Guatemalans were tapped in on Saturday night. They were going crazy. That's awesome. He wins the interim belt at 168 pounds, which gives him a inside track to what we think is Mabilly and Canelo. I mean,

that fight is not finalized. It's heavily rumored. But if Mbibon, Billy fights Canelo. The winner's got to see Lester Martinez, obviously Lester and, but Billy had a very controversial draw on the Canelo Crawford card. All in all, I thought Lester had a great tempo in there. He's a fantastic offensive fighter. Very gifted offensive fighter.

It doesn't have the most pop, because I thought he would be able to get Aleem out of there, who was much smaller and is a guy that has a few losses on there. But a win is a win, and he got the interim title, but maybe we pumped the brakes a little bit on Lester. Yo, Dan, listen, man, we got to pump the brakes just a little bit. I am the spoiler. I'm the overrated spoiler, man.

And when guys get a lot of hype around their name, and it's not necessarily the guy's fault, right? Like, he's fighting everyone in front of him. But I think because of the surrounding circumstances, listen, you're with Beaumack, one of the best trainers in the sport of boxing. Terrence Crawford spars him and goes to camp and all of these things. So I understand how the hype has got around his name. but for me the fight yesterday, it left a little bit to be desired.

You know, I definitely thought a guy like Aleem who Lester should be a level above him, enough to stop him. Lester's a power puncher. I thought he did good, right? So I don't want to, you know, downgrade the win. I thought it was a good win. But I think especially coming off a draw with all those Guatemalan fans in the house, you got to put this guy out, man.

You got to turn his TV off. That's the reason we're here. And I just feel like with Lester Martinez, especially if you're trying to get to the level where he called out Canelo, I got to see a little more before I even want to see that fight. And before Canelo missed the pay day, pay day. Like, you got more work to do, brother. You got more work to do.

Yeah, that's the beauty of boxing is you can hype up a guy and he had a tremendous push. You had Pro Box and boxing scene. Boxing scene is owned by Pro Box. So there was a lot of concerted effort to push Lester Martinez into the forefront coming off of the draw within Billy. So it was a big-time push, and they did everything they could. You know, the promotion was, I thought, top-notch for what ProBox is, and the crowd was buzzing, and they're throwing up graphics, Canello and Lester Dream match-ups, and they're really pushing their guy.

So it's important to get a win. Like we said, a win is a win, and you've got to just survive in advance in this sport. But I also subscribe to the notion that how you win is very important. and it was set up for him to have a spectacular knockout or a stoppage, which is a lot more powerful than, you know, going to distance and getting your hand raised. And yeah, he won, but it would have been a much different feeling if you would have came out of there with a knockout win. And then you can start banging the drum and pumping your chest out and say, look, can I look what I did to this guy, look what I'll do to you next or in Billy or anyone at 168 can get it, where it was more like at the end of it.

It was, yeah, he won, but, you know, it's like now they have to really push even harder now. Pro Box and boxing scene to get this guy up there. I think he's very good. I think he's top 10 for sure. But I don't think he's anywhere close to ready for even a faded and this version of Connell that we see today. I mean, I agree. I think if they fought tomorrow, Canello beats him.

But again, like you said, is, you know, Canello is at the point. He's at the end of the rope. He's putting so much work here. He gets to pick and choose who he wants to fight. And again, it has to make sense. I don't think yesterday's victory was enough to entice. Canelo to say, you know what, let me go get this guy, Lester Martinez. But conversely, like you said, Dan, I do want to commend him for bringing out all those

Guatemalan fans. I don't know of any Guatemalan world champions. It seems like Lester, if he can graduate from the interim level and actually get a, you know, a real title, respectfully, I think that he would be one of the first Guatemalan world champions, I think. No, he will be. He is. He would be because they were really pushing the title.

pro box and boxing scene. It's an interim title, which I hate all the titles. I mean, I think you can agree. Like, there's way too many titles. But one thing I think, at least I come from, is that the interim means something. Interim puts you right in line. It's still not a world title.

And I think there was like some huge, like, Twitter account that has nothing to do with boxing. It was like, like, three million followers. It's like a history account. And they tweeted about Lester Martinez being the first Guatemalan world champion. And, like, of course, someone checked it. Like some guy, like one of the boxing accounts was like, this would be great if it was true because, first off,

there was another guy who won a Guatemalan who won an interim title in 2015. And also, it's not a world championship. It's an interim title. Whatever. Yeah. I mean, it's boxing's all about branding. And I get that. But the main point is that Lester is really fun to watch.

I think that's the main thing. You want to get your money he's worth. And it's really fun to watch. And also ProBox is doing a phenomenal job. You know, Chris, it was on the call last night. He's traveling. And, you know, there was like 70, 80,000 people watching at one point, which is like, it shows you. If you put a fight on YouTube, you're going to get a lot of viewers.

A lot of, if you put, especially it was free, if there's not, you have the YouTube of that. But I just don't understand, like, how you make, you got to find ways to make money with the sponsors and all that. But it's a pretty cool experiment to see how many people will tune in on YouTube for a free fight. And at one point, it was like 70 or 80K. Yeah, I saw that. You know, I definitely want to salute. Pro Box. They've been putting in work. I know, I feel like it was every week in the month of March, they have something going on. And last week with Najee Lopez, that was a crazy fight. So I think

Pro Box has definitely been doing their thing. And yeah, I got to salute those guys. Yeah, so that was the weekend. There was a crazy, I want to get to this. There was a crazy knockout in the women's. Did you see that? Jocelyn Camarillo. Jocelyn Camarillo. She signed with MVP. She fought on the Pro Box card. She knocked out Isis CO in the first round, and it was nasty, dude. It would be really, really, really scary. Like, scary and, like, she did her job, like, Jocelyn, but the other girl, I think she had to go to the hospital.

Like, she was out cold and happened, like, quick, like, first minute of the very first round. So hopefully she recovers. But, you know, that's someone to keep an eye on, too. So that was the weekend. I didn't see the memes on her where they're saying she's the best-looking boxer in the, in the game right now. So I've seen the memes. I've got to check the knockout, though.

I mean, she does a great job at promoting herself. And obviously, MVP took notice and has signed her. They pretty much cornered the market. But, yeah, if she can look the way she does and she has the knockout power, like she will skyrocket in women's boxing. What you say your name was again, Dan? Jocelyn Camarillo.

All right. Jocel Camarillo. I'm checking for you on Cigar Talk. Yeah, she'll be on Alive with Naji come very soon. You had Caroline Dubois on. Oh, yeah. Love Caroline.

I love her. I think that girl, like, she's the next, to me, I think she's a star. I think she has all of the ingredients to be a star. The personality, even though she's from the UK, most UK people don't talk shit. She's not scared to talk the shit. And she backs it up in the ring. Knockout power. I think that girl's the goods, man.

Yeah, I did the live stream with her at the Jake Joshua fight. She joined after she won her fight. and I was running into her all week, all fight week in the fighter hotel. And she's got a dry sense of humor, like a very British sense of humor, but she's no nonsense. And she is really,

really banging the drum to fight Baumgardner. And I don't know. I think Baumgartner, she told me that she wants to fight Serrano. Because we were all at the, you were there, at the MSG presser. And I was like pressing bumgarner.

I was like, all right, so you know, you fight, your fight is two weeks after Caroline. We're on a crash course. here. This is great that you have a foe. This is what boxing is all about. And she's had none of it, Bumgarner. She didn't even bring her name up, Caroline. She's like, I want Amanda Serrano.

So we're seeing a lot of things shake out in women's boxing right now. Yeah, listen, I'm on the block list for Bumgarner, so I may not be one of her favorite people. But again, listen, I just want to see the best fight the best. And Alicia Bumgarner and Caroline Dubois is the best fighting the best.

And we need to see that. Yes. We do. It's okay to be. I'm on many fighters blocked the list. It means you're doing something right. I'm here to be friends. We're here to just tell the truth.

Anything else happen this weekend? Oh, Mick Conlin retired. Oh, you retired? I didn't see that. Yeah, Mick Conlin retired coming off of a loss, which many thought was a win. He was one of the original guests on inside boxing. Back when we were inside boxing live, we would do the show. Every once in a while from a bar, Jack Doyles, where we had our last party.

Top Rank would bring fighters over. This was like 2017. And Mick had just signed with Top Rank. So Top Rank would bring someone over the undercard fighters to guest on the show. And he was one of my original guests. And he was such a great guy, still is a great guy. Very cool dude down to Earth. Obviously, had that crazy Olympic career and then signs with Top Rank and then had that debut with Conn McGregor walking him out.

And then never reached the pinnacle. It was so damn close against Lee Wood. Borough, 2022 Fight of the Year, Lee Wood. and Conlin gets knocked out of the ring in the final round. That was like... Dude, that hurt me. I'm a big Conlin fan. That hurt me when Lee Wood did that.

Like, oh, man, I just... I like the way he put on for Ireland, man. Mick Conlin, he's always put on for Ireland. So, you know, great career. I didn't realize he retired. Great career from him, though. I like, I like, yeah, he was pretty quick. It was like right after the fight, so it was pretty clear.

He said that, you know, he thinks he could still fight on, but he doesn't really feel like he has the abilities to win a world title. And I respect that. So, you know, he hung up up real. quick. And a lot of times you see this, you've been around a lot of fighters where, you know, if you start thinking about retirement, starts creeping into your head, you're almost half retire. You're almost retired. I mean, I respect that that he's able to keep it real where he's at, though. Like, you know, listen, I don't know if I'm going to be able to win a royal title.

I think a lot of guys have a certain delusion. And I respect the fact that he can see where he's at and call it a day. Yeah, you've got to be delusional to be a boxer. You got to have a lot of delusion in order to get to the top. But shout out to Mick Collin, one of the real ones. once. I'm sure he'll get into the media game or promoting. He's very, very locked in over there in the UK and comes to the boxing business. All right, that is the weekend. Now we get into the fun stuff, Najee. Now we get into the heavy hitting. This is why I wanted you on this show because you got takes, my friend. You're not afraid to throw out takes and you get checked and you get questioned and you get co-signed. That's the beauty of Twitter. I'm out there on those streets too.

It's tough out there. It's fun. but every once in a while, you're going to anger some people, which I'm not afraid to do it. Where should we start? Let's start with our boy Shakur Stevenson. You had him on your platform. He wants to spar me. So I don't understand why. I think we smooth that over, not officially, but I think we're cool now. Anyway, I think he's outstanding. I think he's one of the best. I favor him over pretty much everyone today. And that's the main question. Naji, in your honest, humble opinion, who has to be? best chance to dethrone Chikor Stevenson today? Yeah, that is a tough question, man.

I think, you know, I'm very high on Chaucor Stevenson, have been for years. I've been telling everyone from the mountaintop, this kid's the goods. He's the next level of, you know, stars that we say are the A level. I've always believed he was that. And it's starting to show more and more each fight. I think if we're talking about a guy that can beat him from 135, first of all, I just want to preface this. Shakur, if you're watching this right now, this clip,

I don't think anyone can beat you. I favor you over everyone, but who's the fighter actor that can give him the most trouble? Yeah. Well, listen, from 135, are we saying from 135 and 140? Those two divisions or 47 included? 135 to 140, because I don't, he's obviously not going to 147 anytime soon.

I think he's made that clear that he will go on his terms. So yeah, 135 to 140. All right, there's only one guy that I see that has potential to actually beat Shakur. There's only one guy. Unfortunately, the boxing world is never going to get to see it because they vowed not to fight each other. The guy's name is Keishon Davis. That's the only guy when I'm looking at what they do.

Number one, the experience of just having rounds with Shakur, right? Like, these guys spar all the time. I'm sure he knows Shakur's, you know, his nuances, his technical abilities, the things that he's had success in sparring against. Kishon also is the naturally bigger guy, a guy with some length. He's a little bit bigger than Shakur. And he has power. Great boxing skills. I mean, if anyone can beat Shakur, it's the guy that spars him all the time.

Kishon Davis. Unfortunately, listen, I'm not a fan of it. I told him all the time, man, I don't care about the brother thing. I want to see y'all fight. I want to see it. Of course, they don't care. They don't respect it. But to me, that's the guy that has the ability to beat Shakur.

If there is anyone that can beat him, it's Kishon Davis. I totally agree. We did an episode, after Shakur won, and we kind of did the same experiment, this thought process. I think we added 147 into that because at the time, I thought maybe there was a chance that Shakur would go up to 147. That's when I had Haney at number one. Yeah.

In terms of giving Shakur the biggest issues because of his length, size, defensive abilities, but I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. So number two on our list was Keishon Davis. And I totally agree the explosiveness, the length. you know, he does have a good jab, Kishon, great defense. And I think what you said, which was a great point, was just the experience and the familiarity of being with Chakur. You know, being around him, sizing him up,

learning from him as far. And those are huge things. And it's very unfortunate that these two, I think it's great that they're friends. Let's not, let's be real here. Like, it's awesome. But this is a business. This is a business more than it's a sport.

I wonder, down the long, line if they will ever change that because the storylines would be there. Like, there would have to be some type of falling. I think Kishat needs to keep on winning and Shakur needs to stay on his path. And then, you know, ego is coming to play. Yeah. I still think, I still think one day it can happen, man. I still think one day, you know, when the smoke clears and maybe if those two guys

are at the top and you just never know, man, what can happen. So I can still see it to this day. To be honest, I used to think that. Gary Antoine Russell was a guy that had a really good shot at beating Shakur. But now I just, I just can't see it. I think at Shakur at 140, he looked amazing. He looked better than he does at 135, to be honest, as far as his comfortability, his size, the speed, the power came up.

When I saw Andy Hiroka versus Gary Antoine, you know, just even the little stepback, right, like that Shakur loves to do, the stepback counter, it gave Gary a little bit of trouble. And Shakur is, come on, man, this guy's the best at that. So I just, I don't, outside of Qishan, man, I don't know if there's another guy that that really has a good chance at beating him. I don't know. I don't think so. I was pretty high on Russell.

I actually had him next. This was before the Hiroko fight because I think Russell is just so inconsistent. Like, he looks phenomenal against Raya. One of the best performances of 2025, I thought. I was throwing like 100 punches of. round landed something like 250 shots and looks phenomenal obviously he loses the pollo and then he doesn't look great against hiroika who was legitimately like jet lagged and like the guy came over from japan like the day before the fight and everything was set up for russell to shine in that

fight and no no knock on hirioka who was phenomenal same thing with ammanuel alim like the the b sides showed up in these fights but yeah i had russell pretty high on this list i would have to reconfigure it Raymond Murataya at 135. I noticed Shakur has talked about going back down. You're shaking your head, no. I think Maritaya obviously would be the underdog, but I think he possesses a lot of skills that could give Shakur some issues. Yeah, Dan, listen, there's three letters, an acronym.

It's BTA, belt to ass. I think Raymond Moritia would get, I think he'd get embarrassed, to be honest, by Shakur. And I'm looking at that and where I'm gauging it off of, I think Choucault is a completely different fighter than Andy Cruz. I think one, Andy Cruz is a guy which, again, and I'll say this respectfully. Ray Memorial Thai is a really good fighter. He's also a world champion, so I'm not disrespecting the guy. He's in a belt-in-ass, respectfully.

But again, we're talking about this guy is different than Andy Cruz. One is he has an inside game. Andy Cruz cannot really fight inside well. That's not his game. He likes lateral movement and the ability that he needs space to operate. Shikor's shown multiple times he can fight on the inside. The second thing is he has a lot more experience. And then the third thing, when I watch the Tevin Farmer fight, that let me know right there.

A guy that can keep the distance with the jab and utilize angles has the ability to give more retire, you know, a lot of trouble. And I feel like what I saw from Tevin Farmer, who to me is a level or two or maybe two levels below Shakur, I just can't see it. But I still would like to see the fight. I still hope the fight comes to fruition. Of course. I don't see it, brother.

That would be a ring. If it goes back down to 135, obviously Chacore doesn't have the belts anymore. But it would be a ring title on the line between the two best at 135. So, hold on. Where does tank fit in in all of this, Dan? Where is tank in your sphere? Where does tank fit in in this conversation? I have this on our list.

I don't know how. I haven't known how to address tank. I haven't know how to talk about it. Like, I just don't bring them up. because I don't know if he's retired. I don't know if he's coming back. I don't know if his head is 100% in it, which probably somewhere in the middle of those two things.

I operate like Tank isn't on this list. When we made this list, when we did this discussion, I said, all right, let's forget that tank isn't, because I don't think of him as an active fighter right now, until he signs on the dotted line

and he's supposedly looking at a summer showdown with Pitbull Cruz, but we've seen this numerous times. We're right, Tank's going to come back. He's going to fight this guy. He's going to come back. But we just don't know. I mean, have you heard anything? Because I mean, I heard the pit bull rumors as well. But like you said, I mean, you know, I feel like every couple months, there's a rumor that tanks coming back to fight this guy and then he'll have legal trouble. He's coming back to fight this guy and something else will happen. So I agree. He wasn't on my list as far as the who can beat Chikors. Oh, I mean, if he was active and like tank was, let's say tank beat Roach. And this is a whole different like alternate universe. He doesn't take the knee. He beats Roach. Maybe he does fight Jake, and he comes out of that fun and profile is raised.

Obviously, he'd be number one on this list. Like, Tank versus Shakur is probably the top three best fight you can make in all boxing. Are we ever going to see it? I mean, that's why we tune in, and that's why we talk about these things because we just don't know. Like, I think Tank wants to come back. I think there's a lot of things. I think he wants to go back. I think he's a prideful guy.

Also, I think, you know, money is always a driving force. And from what I've seen, the dude's got lawyers cost a lot of money. Lawsuits. He went from making $40 million against Jake Paul to now in a pile of legal issues. And what's the best way to make money really fast? One night, you can get into the ring and show off your talents.

So, I mean, when there's smoke, there's fire. So if he does fight pit bull and comes back, I'm still holding out hope that we one day see tank and show. Okay. All right. Me too.

I'm holding out hope too. I hope. Because that boxing is in a better place when all the stars are fighting. Because that right there, that's like put that in any arena in the U.S. and it not only sells out, but does over a million pay-per-views if we're still are in the-guaranteed. I think that would potentially crack the top 10 of like gates and pay-per-view. Like, I think, you know, it's a huge fight.

It's a huge fight. And I think at some point, both of those guys are going to realize, listen, there's too much money to just leave this on the table. and I do hold out hope that it will happen in another year or two. I think Shakur is doing a really good job of putting himself out there. A lot of fighters disappear after a big win. I always hated that. It's like they do all this promotion before the fight.

They win the fight and then they disappear. You don't see them on cigar talk. You don't see them on any of the podcast. But not Shakur, man. This dude is doing, he's streaming. He's going on Rogan. He's everywhere. And I said this to Algeria before the fight.

I said, whoever wins this fight, T.O. and Shakur, like, they are going to be on the short list in terms of faces of U.S. boxing, not the face, because Chacore needs a few more wins. But, I mean, he's becoming a huge name. And he's definitely elevated to his profile big time. Some props to him for doing more media. Yeah, man. I think he, you know, he's primed to be one of the next guys. Like you said, you know, you got to do more work to become the face of boxing. But that was the first, you know, elite level name that Chikor was able to have on his resume. And he passed the test with flying. colors. It was actually easy, dare I say. And I think Tiafimo a little bit. Talk about Belt to S. I mean, that was an 11-1. Yeah, that was 12-0. Got Tiafimo thinking twice about his corner, moving up to 147. What happened to your power, bro? That was very, that was insane. Some of the worst corner work I've ever heard in my life. And like, it's just, everything gets exposed in the sport. Like, that's the beauty of boxing. It's like you, you don't train well against.

exposed. You don't prepare against exposed. You have a poor corner on fight night. It's going to get exposed. And if you looked at Tia Fimo's corner, but you had his dad falling over, yelling out nothings. And you go over to Shakur's corner. Great instructions, calm, you know, just a guy that's laser focused. So as much as Shakur wants to punch me in the face, I am a big fan of his. What's up at that? Yeah, I don't know, man. It's like Dan versus Shakur for the ring magazine belt, bro. I don't know what's going on. I've never said a bad word about him. Does he tweet a lot? Yes, that we make fun of him for that. Yes, but I tweet a lot. You tweet a lot. We all tweet a lot. I think, I know what it was. It was we were taught, me and Chris, we're talking about the four

kings, which Chacour was never part of that discussion. This is about six months ago before Chacore got in the ring with Tia Fimo, like well before that. And we're talking about Tiafimo. We're talking about Ryan, Devin, and Javanta. You know, these guys, for the most part, haven't fought each other, but they have the chance to. And I was like, you know what? We should throw Shakur into this list. He deserves to be ranked among them or associated with them, even though he wasn't because he came up at a featherway, at 126, 130, while those other guys were at one lightweight at the time. And then I was like, yeah, I wanted to show him some love. But then Chris piggybacked on it, and was like, these guys are divas. They don't fight each other. So then Shakur was like, why am I

getting lumped into that thing? So he's, you know, so he's like, yeah, thing. So, he's like, He kind of should have went. So Chris gave you to Alleyu for Chacore to be mad. Yes. Like, he should have went after Algeria, the fighter. Because Algeria was the one that was throwing shade inadvertently at Chacore. So even when I try to give guys props sometimes, it gets convoluted. Oh, yeah, guilty by association.

I get it then. Yeah, that happens here. Oh, yeah, you've been there. You've been there, too. I get it. What do you think, Shakur, where do you think he fights next? Does he stay at 140 or, like, who do you think? To be honest, I do.

I think there. more retire is a good fight. I wouldn't see it. I think it'll be an entertaining fight. I think the opportunity to hold two ring magazine belts, you know what I mean, at simultaneously, 140 and 135. I think that's a big feat in terms of accomplishments. It doesn't seem like the Ryan thing is going to come to fruition. Connor Ben has his list checked off with Regis Procray. So I think all of the bigger name fights that Chacour was looking for, it doesn't seem like those things are going to happen right now. So to me, I feel like Raymond Morataya is a good fight.

I think, you know, he just came off a great win against Andy Cruz. So, you know, I feel like that could be next to me. So you think Shakur would go down to 135? Yeah, I think for him to have the ability to jump back and forth between divisions, I think he's going to exercise that. I do think he can go back to 35. And even when I'm looking at this last fight, the fight was at 140. He weighed in at like 138, right?

Like, this guy, he's not even a true 140-pounder, right? Right? So I definitely could see him moving back now at 35. That's like Tank. Tank was weighing in at 133, 132. Like I saw him the night before the fight at CVS eating ice cream. Before the Frank Martin fight where he told me eighth round and I put a stack on it, it made me a rich man. Crazyest, one of the craziest boxing stories ever.

Wait, he told you that. He told you eight rounds? I was wild. So we're stopped into the CVS on the strip to get like waters or whatever. and my buddy's like, yo, tank is in the ice cream aisle. I'm like, yeah, okay. Look over and he's just chilling. He has a box of SpongeBob ice cream, not just like one, like the whole box, like a six-pack.

And he's eating, and he's walking through and he's eating them. He's with one buddy. And like, we had done some content earlier in the day. So he's like, oh, shit, we recognized each other. I went up to him. You know, I wasn't taking pictures or anything like that. We were just chatting. And I was like, yo, so when you're getting this guy out of there?

What round? And he goes, eighth. I was like, okay. All right. Put some money on it. left put whatever a couple hundred on eighth guy not so unreal dude like joe buddn was talking about on his podcast that like kind of made the rounds there and every time i for the most when i was seeing tank after that i would bring it up to him but yeah that was a wild story but he was he was makes

the weight yeah very easily so he could definitely fight um chacour at 135 and chacore is not big for 140 that's why the 147 talk you know like it was it was a strange thing between Shakur and Ryan. Like, I just never saw that happening. Like, I don't like, I don't want to see Ryan at 144 catch. Wait, we've seen that already. We've seen what Ryan looked like when he fought Javant as a different person. So I don't want to see Ryan Garcia at 144.

I want to see him at 147. No rehydration clauses, none of that. If it was to be Ryan and Shakur, what do you stand there? Yeah, I mean, I'm not mad at it. I think the only reason I wanted to see it was just because Ryan suggested it. I don't think it was Shakur who suggested it. Ryan was like, well, I'll come down to 144 and we can do that. So, you know, I would like to see it because I like those big star matchups, right? Like, there's just nothing better than having a star face another star. Obviously,

coming off of what Ryan did to Devin Haney, we just want to see how Shakur would fare against that, you know, I just would love to see that. But, I mean, I totally agree with you. I think they're always going to be one way class apart. That's the way it feels like it's always been. Chicova was at 26. These guys were at 30. You know, they moved up. He moved up. So, they're always one weight class apart. So, I mean, hopefully a catch weight can solve that issue

and we could just see it at some point. But it doesn't seem like anytime soon that's going to happen. I'm not a big fan of the catch weights. I think the Ryan Devonta opened our eyes to guys fighting out of their weight classes, rehydration clauses. I don't want to see

that for that fight. I agree. We want to see the biggest names and now we've kind of broken down the barriers and broken down the walls where we can pretty much get any fight now in boxing because of Saudi because of Turkey because now the zone has everyone so it's like we were programmed for a while as boxing fans to be like oh right there's no way like tefeumish core like so much has to happen for that fight to be made okay it gets made now because of ring magazine and the money being thrown around there so now we're like all right what's the next big fight like obviously we want to see the next big one whereas i think the boxers they i know

they want that spoke, but they might not want it necessarily next. So, like, we could marinate a fight. Like, I still think marination will happen in boxing, because you can't just go from one fight into the next one, into the next one. Like, I still think it should happen within the next year. Like, Shakur should be in another big fight in the next year. We may not, like, see Shakur jump right to a Ryan Garcia from a Tio, Fima Lopez, or right to a Devin Haney. Like, a Murataya, which is still a high-profile fight to Hardcores, will cross over into the mainstream, probably not. But it's still, like, that's an outstanding fight. So I could see that from Chacore.

I could see him going back to 135. I could see him maybe at 1-4. It's the Roach fight. If Roach gets past the Tate. Lamont Roach and Chacore, Stevenson. I like that. I just, I'm not a big hater of rehydrations. You know what I mean?

I don't know that a rehydration against Tank would have changed the outcome. I don't really think I think that. No, but it would have been a, I think it would have been a better fight. I think he would have still got knocked out. Like, to me, it didn't look like, you know, maybe he was. I mean, maybe it was tough to make the weight. I'm saying is the way that happened, you threw the left hook three times and he countered you. It's Tank Davis. You could have did that at 47. He would have punched your lights out, whatever weight

you were at. He would have did the same thing. But you see Ryan looked like a different human. Like I didn't recognize. Like the size? You look back at that fight. He looked like a skeleton. Yeah. Yeah. But he signed it. Golden Boy and Oscar did not want him to sign that. He went renegade. He went, I want this fight by any means. signs the rehydration clause, which are very dangerous, I think. 10 pounds, which I think it should be a percentage. I mean, Algeria talk about this all the time. I think the IBF has kind of done that now, where some is like a hard number,

like a 10 pounds, and then other weights, other weights, it's a percentage. I think it should be like 15%, which would be, not 15%, but it should be like 12 or 13, 14 pounds. Yeah. I mean, I should say I'm not in favor of. of rehydration, but I'm okay with catch weights. I think a catch weight to me is fair. Catch weight.

Yeah, you can do a catch weight, one of the other. You can do a catch weight, no. I'm with you there. I'm with you there. All right. We're on the same page with that. So if they could agree to 144 and if Ryan thinks he can boil down and make that, and then he can, like, put on the right amount of weight.

But I understand Chaucor's sentiment here. It's like, I'm not stepping in the ring with, you know, being 20 pounds lighter than my opponent. But then again, it's just like, that part was a little strange. because when I saw them drawn on each other in the ring after the fight, I'm thinking, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, everyone else. And I was like, all right, let's let this play out a little bit. Now we're going to get into the weights.

Now we're going to get into the negotiations. Now we're going to get into the clauses and all that. And like anything else in boxing, like we're going to see the uglier side. Like the negotiations that play out on social media, and then we're not going to be as excited for this fight. And now we're not going to get that. So we've got to move forward with other fights for, Shokor Stevenson. Let's go over to heavyweights.

Your guy, Alexander Usik, is fighting Riko Verhoeven. From the pyramids, a kickboxer. I do not like this fight. I think that Usik obviously has the right to fight anyone. I get that. The fact that it's the WBC title on the line is what obviously, I don't think anyone can agree that Rico Verhoven and outstanding fighter.

But should he be fight, jump the line to fight for a world title? Absolutely not. Yo, Chris, this is nasty work, man. I get it. Like, we're trying to soften the blow with pyramids and all. Listen, the mummy Tim Hope Tep, they're rolling in their fucking tombs right now. What the... Bro, come on, man.

I'm just saying is everyone online is, like, try to make this thing that I'm an Ussick hater. I'm not an Usook hater. I just feel like I want the standard. to be the same for everyone across the board. I feel like if there was any other fighter, maybe not named Canelo, who's dominated for three generations now, and they fought like a kickboxer or whatever this guy is,

they would get assaulted. They would get verbally bashed nonstop every day. And it seems like now with Ucic, it's like, well, you know, this guy he deserves it, or, well, now he's 38 and this and that. And I'm just like, I just don't feel the same energy. Like, when I looked at Terence Crawford, who is also 38 years old or 37 at the time he fought like Madramov, he got killed for fighting a real fighter, Madramov. It's just that we didn't, a lot of people didn't know who Madrimov was at the time.

So it was just like, these guys moving up to 54 to fight like, nobody, who is this guy? And I just, and I just don't, I just don't get it. I think the fight is terrible. I think Usik as holding the belts, the guy that's the undisputed champion, should have to fight the guys that are in, putting it work like my boy, agit, Cabell. Oh, you're the Cabell-Hive. I'm a Cabell-Hive. And I didn't just start this.

I've been to Cabo-L-Hive for the last, like, two, three years, man. I think that guy's the goods. I think he's proven it every time he steps up, even when he's the underdog. He shows up and he shows out, and he's knocking guys out. It's not just like he's just beating you. He's stopping these guys. So you think Cabell can beat Usock?

Yo, Dan, I know. I know he can beat Uy-U-Sik. Usik knows that he can beat Usik. That's why he don't want to fight. My guy, Kabiel has been calling him out nonstop, and we all know Ucic is weak to the body. We know it. We've seen it. We've seen it so many times. And the best body puncher, arguably in the sport today, is Aga Kabil. The guy knows how to go to the body. He's legitimately the body snatcher. Am I just going to act like this is an easy fight? Absolutely not. Usik is a great fighter. It's not an easy fight. But I think at 38 years old. I think he slowed down just a tad, just this much. I think Usick can slow down.

Where, though? Okay, I'm going to push back a little bit here. So I don't think that Cabiel could beat Usik. There's not a fighter out there that likes getting hit to the body. But yes, we've seen that one punch from Dubai, which was love. That was not a body shot. Dan, come on, dead. Low? Low? Usick had his shorts up like this. The shorts was all the way. Come on, man. Usik is, I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe that Cabell can beat Usik. I don't see any slowing down for Usik. If anything, he's, he battered Dubois the second time around.

He's beating these guys twice, which obviously is the reason why many believe, okay, fight a kickboxer, take that route. You know, Tyson Fury has done it now with these crossover fights. Even Joshua has done it, fighting Francis Ingano. Why isn't a guy like Usik entitled to do that big cash grab? Fine. The belts being on the line is the problem with that one. We've been Fury fought in Ghana. The WBC didn't sanction that fight. So that shows you how far off the, or how low the WBC has fallen to now they're given a kickboxer, a shot at Ussick's title. But back to the Cabayel.

I like Cabell a lot. And I don't think Uc is avoiding him. I just think that Usoc is in the stage of his career where he's looking for the biggest names. Like he's entertaining a Fury fight for a third time, which no one has. to see, but it's Tyson Fury. Like, he's, no one. Like, he's, he's entertaining a Jake Paul. Like, he's doing stare-downs. Like, he's going down all avenues right now. But, Caboel does sell. Like, I was absolutely amazed by the scene in his last fight, where that crowd was so engaged, one of the best crowds I've seen in years. But also, I wasn't, I mean, you have to, he was getting pieced up in those early rounds. Like, he does have a lot of,

He does have a lot of defensive weaknesses and defensive liabilities that I think Ussick would handle. I think Usoc would beat Kabeel pretty soundly. But I do think they should still fight. If you're going to carry the belts, he's not undisputed, Usook. I do think if you're going to carry the belts and you're still at the top of your game, Usook, like you have to fight your mandator. You have to fight the interim champ, which is Kavillai. I 100% agree that they have to fight.

I just don't think I think Usook. I just feel like there's excuses every time. was, all right, this guy's not in line. That was the first time they said that. His manager, what do you mean? He's only in the top 10. He's not in line. He's not the next in line.

He becomes the next in line now. Now he is now the interim or the manager. Like, he's the next guy in line. It's WBC interim and he's the manager. So we can't use that excuse anymore. Then it was, oh, this guy doesn't sell. He can't sell tickets. He just did 13,000 seats in Germany.

That's not even a big boxing market since the country. clitch goes left, right? Like, this guy has already just shown he can sell. He's beating the big names. And I'm like, now, Ussick's calling out Wilder. He's calling out kickboxers. It's egregious. It's egregious, Dan. Anyone else does this, they would get killed. When Fury fought in Ghanu, he got killed for that. They killed him nonstop. And I just, I just don't feel the same energy. And I think when I'm looking at Kabil, and I'm basing this off of this, this is not just me hating on Usik. I think he's a good fighter. But I think when I look at him, the times that I've

seen him struggle, it was, there was two times, there was two times that are coming to mind specifically. And I got to really, I got to go back and really do the homework again. But the two fights that I remember vividly, Maris Bradis at the cruiserweight. Oh my God. Listen, first of all, Usik, he might even lost that fight or a draw. That wasn't like, we're not going to act like that was just a, he beat this guy up. Ten years ago, then. Very, very close and hard grueling fight. And the times that I see Usik, it's guys that he beats, he's good with the bigger guys, the bigger, slow. I can see those punches.

No, man, Cabiel's your size, man. Cabiel got some speed on it, man, and he knows how to bully. The second one I was going to say is the other fight that I thought was a very close fight, but he won. He definitely won. It was Derek Chazora. When he fought Derek Chazora. Oh, it was his first fight in heavyweight. I think he fought the guy witherspoon before.

that. Chaz Witherspoon? When he fought Chazora, he fought Chazora. Bro, Del Boy was getting in there on the inside and making it rough, and he didn't like the rough and tough stuff. I saw it. I saw he didn't like the roughness. And Cabeel is a guy that's going to get in there and make it rough, man. I'm trying to tell you. Well, two things. I mean, the Cabell fight, I mean, the Chazora fight was 2020. Braheed his fight 20-18. It's a while back. And Usik has gotten bigger. He's gotten better. he's beaten Joshua twice Dubois twice Fury twice the reason why I think that Usik isn't getting the same hate as Fury is because of how he's beaten these guys like how he stopped Dubois you know he's handled Tyson Furry handed him his first loss he beat Joshua twice you know he has he kind of carries himself in a way where it's a little bit of a throwback where he's not doing excessive media so you don't really see him a lot. You can't criticize him a lot. But even I am a huge big Ussick supporter, and even I have

said that he's been moving different the last year. There's no doubt about it. You can't be, you just got to call it what it is. He's at the stage in his career where he's overlooking a cabal. Like I said, he's looking for the bigger names. I wouldn't say he's bored, but he's cleared everyone out. So like, what more can he do? Like, yeah, another thing too, we have to wait and see. I know in this, in this business, we want to just jump and pile on and a guy does something. What does he do after Verhoven? If he fights Wilder after Verhoven, and that's the end of his career, then yes, we should criticize. That's not the way we wanted to see Usik go out. If he fights Cabell, which he said he was going to do, and Cabell has been

promised that he was, then we could kind of obviously reverse course here and say, you know what? Usik is a real. Dan, I feel like I saw something recently where they asked Usik, who's the next three, he said, I have three fights left. He said, I want the winner of Wardley Dubois, which you're fought Dubot twice already. You knocked him out. How many times do you want no, I only want Wardley. All right. So Wardley, cool, even though, you know, big skill disparity, but I respect the Wardley fight. Then he wants Tyson Fury again, like you said, no one wants to see that. You beat him. We get it. But I'm just saying is, if we're saying like, all right, this guy who beat me, what, he's beat, is it six guys,

six guys at heavyweight? Al Bide, he's beat a few of them multiple times, right? He's beat, He's beat six guys at heavyweight. He's beating Chaz Witherspoon. Chaz Witherspoon. Okay. Chizora. Chisora. Joshua twice, Dubois, twice, Fury twice.

That's five guys. You can't be the top guy fighting five. We can't say you cleared out a division. You could only fight who's there. Guys. You could only fight who's there, number one. But the way he's doing it and the way he's done it is what makes it impressive. Obviously, the luster has been a little off of Tyson Fury.

Same thing for Jop. Joshua and Dubois. This isn't like the 90s era. This isn't Holyfield, Brick Bo, Lennox Lewis. He's not disposing of that type. But you could only fight who was there of your era. And obviously you had a big issue with him being compared to some of the greats.

And I think what you have to do when you look at Usik is every heavyweight era has a guy that's emerged as the best, right? Ali, you go to the 70s with Larry Holmes. you go into the 80s of Tyson, and then the second half of it is when you have guys like Lennox Lewis emerge and Evander Holyfield. And those are the top crop. And they are now put into a list

as the all-time greats. Usik is the top crop of this heavyweight class, this generation, because he's beating them and he's beaten them without a doubt. So therefore, he is in the conversation. He should never be put in the same sentence as Muhammad Ali, but he should definitely be in the room.

because he is the best heavyweight of this generation, even if he's only beaten five-dine. I got to challenge you, man. I mean, all right, I don't want to say that. Maybe he's in the room, but, like, you know, when you were at lunch, you know what I mean, back in middle school, you can't sit at this table, bro. Go sit over there.

You're not at this table. This is an elite level table. Let's look at, let's analyze the resume. Let's just, let's just analyze it. And we can even go back to Cruiser, but heavyweight. Where do you rank Daniel Dubois? Where do you rank him? Is this guy like some guy that's an elite level guy?

He lost the Joe Joyce. Like, I mean, let's be honest. I'm respectfully, I'm not going to sit here and act like Daniel Dubois is like one of the best heavyweights. So, all right, cool. That's a good win. I say like Daniel Dubois to me, maybe like a B minus guy, right? Is that fair? Yes.

I think it's extra fair. So now let's look at Anthony Joshua. The guy who lost to Andy Ruiz. Let's look at Anthony. Where do we rank? Is Anthony Joshua one of the like? This guy is the best, or is he, where do we rank Anthony Joshua with a letter grade? In terms of his contemporaries or like all time?

I would even say contemporaries, but all time, it's not even close. We won't even do that to Joshua, but contemporary. No, I think he's like, if you're going to have to, Dubois beat him. So if you're going to have Du Bois B plus, where do you have Joshua? That's what I'm saying. So, I mean, he's a top guy. But this is what I'm saying is those two wins, the Fury win, you can't debate that. That is an A-level win, high-class, A-level, even though I thought the first fight was very close.

Second fight, he made it like, yo, this guy doesn't belong here with me. A-level win. I just can't see how beating Dubois, Joshua, and then one A-level guy equals this guy is at the table with guys like Muhammad Ali. Let's be clear. Muhammad Ali, we're talking, let's look at his B-level guys, right? He's for George Shabalo. He's for Jerry Quarry, Ernie Shavers, like, these are Bob Foster. Those are the B-level guys of that time where they're good.

They're not A-level, but they're good, right? Like Ernie Shavers beat Floyd Patterson, so these are B-level guys. But then we have multiple A-levels. You know what I mean? There's four men. There's Frasier, there's Archie Moore. There's, come on, man. Sonny Liston.

It goes to my point where you can only fight who's in your generation. and I think are we are we also throwing in when he did a cruiserweight I understand it's not the same division but we have to factor that in that the fact that the guy came up he's not a natural heavyweight and he absolutely cleared out cruiserweight

and became undisputed there and then became on the street Dan who was that the cruiserweight when he did it who once again once again the breeders win was amazing fantastic at the time that win where that was a very could have been a draw but yes Gaseyev at the time was a very impressive win.

Marco Huck, so it was at the end of his rope, but it was still a hunter. Come on, Dan. I could beat Marco Huck with an eight week training camp, Dan. Okay, no, no, I'm sorry, man. No, I get what you're saying. Like, it's, it's with Ussick, you have to kind of have an asterisk.

You kind of have to peel it back a little bit. He's not the top class upper echelon of heavyweights because it's just this era is not as good as the other ones, even though I still think it's a pretty good error. But it's the way he's done it, is beating them twice. It's coming up from Cruiserweight is why he's in a discussion. I just feel like there should have to be more for the bar to be where it's at. I think the bar's been set so high.

I mean, if we're talking about clearing a division, there's guys like Joseph Parker. There's guys like, you know, we're now talking about Moses Atama. Of course, Aga Cabell, I think there are other guys that would constitute clearing the division. And if he did that, I think he would have a better case. I'm just saying is I think in a weaker division where you beat two B levels and one A level guy, you can't sit at the Ali table. You ain't sitting there. You know what I mean?

And I think he's a great fighter. I do. I want to preface this by saying he is a great fighter. I just think we should make the standard equal for everybody. And who sick to me gets a lot of favor that other fighters don't. And you think Cabell beat them. Dan, take that to the bank, Dan. Wow.

Cabiel. I hope we see it. I hope we should all head out there, Germany. I hope it's in Germany at the same arena that he fought the last guy, maybe even a bigger one, because that place was insane. We in Algeria talked about it, like going, you know, October Fest and all that and walking into that arena, that would be insane.

I still think we have to wait and see, even though I think a win over Cabell doesn't cement Ussick's legacy anymore, but it's still, you know what I mean? Like, there's another thing, too, it's like, if he, right, if he walks away and he fights wilder next or Wardley, Or Cabell, you know, he's still going to be looked at as one of the greats of this era, where he rates all time. I think that's something that people will, the best of beauty of boxing. But I do agree that he's not in the top table.

Like there might be the front of the table. He might be just be sitting on the edge, like on the very edge. Look it in. Yeah, yeah. Hey, guys, can I sit? No. Yeah, exactly. No.

Not yet. Not yet. I would say, I don't want to say no. I want to say not yet. But what is he going to do? Does no one left for him to fight? I would disagree. You think his legacy is etched.

He could have fought Joseph Parker. I thought the only reason Joseph Parker took the other fight against Fabio Wardley is because he wasn't selected. I mean, that was the fight to make right there. That's when I, that's when Usoc started moving different. That's the first sign of me that Ucic was moving different is when he didn't fight Parker, who 100% deserved. That's what I'm saying. You could afford Parker. And that's why I'm just like, those to me are, you know, all the past, the past heavyweets we're talking about, even guys like Lennox Lewis, who he's lost to guys.

like Oliver McCall, but he came back and destroyed him, right? Or Hasim Rahman, and, you know, Hasim Rockman was a good fighter, came back and destroyed him. So I just feel like when we're talking about the fighting everybody thing, I don't really truly feel he's done that, in my opinion. He did it, and then he stopped. Like, he did it. Fury, Dubois, twice, Joshua.

But then, yeah, like, no to Parker. I'm going to give up my belt. Say I have a back injury. The next thing he's dancing on TikTok. He's break dancing in the middle of Germany. I was like, yo, come. Come on, man. Was not a good look.

I'm not going to say he's Teflon. He gets a lot of benefits of the doubt, like I said before, because he has that, like, no-nonsense approach when he was coming up, like clear it out cruiserweight, goes to heavyweight, clears out heavyweight. You know, it was dancing, smiling, cookey guy. So everyone's, like, kind of gives him the benefit of the doubt. But then he started moving different. There's no doubt about that.

And the jury's still out. If he gets the Verhoeven win, which he should, and then he fights, like, he fights Cabell or Wardley or Attlee, or Atama, I would love to see that. I would love to see a pessimist. Listen, I'll tell you this. Atama fights this weekend. If he beats my guy, Aga Cabiel, I'll make Usik my avatar on Twitter for a month.

Wow. You're here first on inside boxing. That's a lot for you. It's a big, big thing. I appreciate you putting yourself out there like that and making news here on inside boxing. Do you have anything else we want to get to? I had some other stuff. We went passionate debates here.

Atama fights this weekend. Who do you got in Fondora and Thurman? I mean, smart money says Fondora, but Thurman has a chance, man. I'm not counting Keith out, man. He does. I'm not counting Keith out. He's the better skilled boxer. I mean, obviously, he's the old guy.

I told him, I had him on my show. I said, yo, listen, you're fighting for the unks right now. This is bigger than two few. Yeah, I mean, I think he legit has a chance. Obviously, you got to go to the body. He knows that. But I don't, you know, Fondora has to be the favorite, but I'm not sure.

This is a good fight. This is a better fight. What's the line right now? Is it getting closer? It's a very good fight. It's an intriguing fight because Thurman is a wily vet. I mean, the inactivity, he would even tell you himself, like, the inactivity is the reason why no one's giving me a shot in this fight. But if it was a couple of years ago, if it was like the Thurman of during his prime, obviously he gives Fondora a lot of issues.

We've got to see how he looks in there. Yeah, that's on P.B. TV.com. Everyone go out and order that fight. Join us in the live. Wait, who you got is the winner, Dan? Before we get up out of here. Who you got winning that one? I don't know yet. I like to wait. I like to wait. I'm favoring Fondora. I think it would be, if Fondora wins, I think it's good for the division. It would be absolutely bad shit crazy if Keith Thurman is a titleist at 154 in the year of 2020.

Shakes up the whole division, brother. Everything. I can see pulling it off. Like I was, I was with. Thurman at the Pachio fight up on the stage. I did some stuff for Draft Kings, and Thurman watched the Fondora Zoo two fight, and he was locked in, and, like, he wasn't talking, and Keith Thurman not talking is a very strange thing.

And he's watching, he's, like, studying. And he's like, I can beat him. I can beat him about Fondora. He said, I can beat him. Because I know exactly what I have to do. And I'm like, damn. Like, he's definitely got the belief.

He's plus 280. Fondor is minus That's not bad odds Plus 380 Minus 380 Fondora stops them I mean we've never seen Keith stopped Yeah

He's dropped by Pachio This is a wild scene I think it'd be a good one I think 154 is Probably the best division But we have to start seeing Some movement in this division

Like Boots and Zias Would be a great fight Boots and Virgil obviously is on ice I mean all these champions are with different promoters, but now they're all under one network, essentially, on the zone. But who's the best of 154? I mean, right now, I would still have to say Sebastian Fondora. I got it.

Really? Yeah. I mean, I think he has to be. I think he's proven it. I think he's the guy to beat. You know, I think Boots obviously looks skilled, but you ain't going to get, I can't say you the best by beating Lama Beans. We can't do that.

You got to, he's got a, and it's no fault of his own, you know, I think Boots wants these fights clearly. But until you do it and get out there and beat some of these guys, I can't have him as the number one. So I still think right now, Fondora's number one. But I like how Zandazias is doing, man. He's getting a lot better. He's progressing.

He's working. He looks a lot better than he did two years ago. And he's still young. So I like Zandesias too. Yeah, I think people are sleeping on Zias because he's got like the, they look at him not as a big puncher. Duke can box. He's very hard to hit.

He's getting better. I don't know how long he'll stay at 154. He's also building his brand. I mean, you get on the halftime show, the Super Bowl, and you're phenomenal. You got to level up, man. Yeah, that was awesome to see. Virgil Ortiz. I still think it's at the top, Fondora Zias.

This is the ring rankings. Ennis. I honestly think we might see Ennis Zias in June. Yo, I'm not going to lie. If I was top rank, I wouldn't do that. But I know. Me neither. I think it's way too risky.

And apparently, according to Chris Bannix, is Zias is the one. pushing negotiations. Maybe he sees something. I don't know. Maybe he took a look at that Karen fight and said, you know what? I can, there's something I can do here. True. Not that, you know, they fight exactly the same, but, you know, Zais is a mover.

Hopefully we see these fights, man. I think boxing's in a good place. I think with the zone now and getting top ranks a good thing. And we didn't get the Zufa. I've got to have you on again. Maybe we'll do it live and we'll talk about the business of boxing because that could be a whole hour of show. Because I think it's going to be Zufa versus everybody. Yeah, I honestly think so I've heard some rumblings now with like top rank,

Golden Boy now is going to resign with DeZone. And I think we're going to see some things start to shift. We're going to see a cracks. You know, I think Zuf is going to go their way. And then I think the others are going to, I think DeZone really wants the best fights. And they're really pushing for every, every Saturday night. That was like music to my ears when the CEO said that, like, we want a marquee fight every Saturday night on DeZone. And now they have four, five.

different promotions that they can choose from and they're like, I don't want to hear anymore, this guy can't fight this guy. Like they got burned on Virgil and Boots. Obviously, DeZone really wanted that. And now they're like, okay, Zai, what's the next best one? Zias and Boots? We have to have that in June. I agree. It's like the only other promoter is MVP who they're doing their own thing. Obviously, Netflix, ESPN now with the, with the MVPW. So I got to salute them too. But, man, It's definitely going to be interesting over these next couple years, man, for sure. Yeah, everything's about to heat up, too. It's been a little bit of a slow start to the year, but I think once next week,

we get, or this weekend on pvue.com with Thurman and Fondora, then pretty much every weekend until June. There's a big fights. So I appreciate you coming on, man. Tell everyone where they can get on yourself. No, Dan, thank you, man. Listen, if you haven't checked me out, please do. My name is Najee.

I have a podcast called Cigar Talk. At Naji Chill, N-J-I-Chill. That's where you can find me on all social. media, Twitter, Instagram. You might not agree with some of these takes, but I backed them up. And I throw a lot of grenades on the timeline. So you know what I mean? Come through.

I'm open a debate, man. Let's talk boxing. Let's debate it. At Najee Chill and check out Cigar Talk on YouTube. Najee Chill, where you will see Usik's face on Najee's Twitter. Wow. All right. Chris, we'll be back on Thursday.

We'll preview Thurman and Fondora and all that good stuff. Keep your hands up at all times. Protect yourselves at all the time. Stay out of those DMs.