The Ariel Helwani Show - Jeff Pearlman

Episode Date: March 10, 2022

The prolific sportswriter joins the show to discuss his illustrious writing career. Pearlman tells Ariel about the moment he knew he wanted to be a journalist and the 1999 incident that helped take his writing career to new heights while he was at Sports Illustrated. Then, Pearlman talks about his transition to writing books, the art of biography writing, how many more books he hopes to write, what still motivates him, and the surprising answer to what he hopes his legacy is.Jeff Pearlman is an American sportswriter. A former senior writer for the prestigious Sports Illustrated, Pearlman is most known for his work as an author. He has written nine books, six of which have appeared on The New York Times' bestseller list. One of his books, Showtime, has recently been made into a docuseries which is airing now on HBO. It's titled Winning Time, and it focuses on the unforgettable 1980s Los Angeles Lakers.Pearlman is also the co-host of the Two Writers Slinging Yang podcast and the writer behind one of Ariel's favorite Substack pages.For more episodes of The Ariel Helwani Show, please follow the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or on Ariel's YouTube channel.Theme music: "Frantic" by The Lovely Feathers

Hello friends, hope you're doing well. Welcome back to a brand new edition of The Helwani Show. I, of course, am Ariel Helwani. It is Thursday, March 10th, 2022. Hope you're doing well. I'm very excited about today's episode. As I've said time and again since we started this show back in September of last year, my main motivation in doing this is to talk to people that I'm interested in, that I am inspired by, that I look up to, that I find fascinating. Most of them I've never met before, but I'm able to reach out to them now because I have this platform, I have this show, I have this vehicle.

And someone who fits that bill to a T is our guest today. His name is Jeff Perlman. He's one of the best sports writers of my lifetime. He has written nine books, six of them. You'll find out that I made this mistake, but I'm correcting it now. Six of them made it to the New York Times bestselling list, which is a tremendous feat. Used to work for Sports Illustrated, used to work for Newsday. He has a 10th book coming out on Bo Jackson later this year. And incredibly, one of his books, entitled Showtime, which came out in 2014 about the 1980s Lakers dynasty, Magic, Kareem, Pat Riley, et cetera. One of those books, that one in particular, has been turned into an HBO series. How amazing is that? It came out this past Sunday, March 6. You can watch it on HBO and HBO Max. It's called Winning Time. And it's about everything they wrote in that book. His book was optioned and it became this show eight years later. Incredible. And there's famous people involved. Sally Field, John C. Reilly, Adrian Brody, and many more. And so this is a tremendous accomplishment. And I'm extremely

excited to talk to him about journalism, about his career, about writing books, about everything he's been through. He had a very famous article come out in 1999 about John Rocker, which I think changed the course of his career and Rocker's as well. He writes a great sub stack. He has a great podcast that I listen to every week called Two Writers Slinging Yang. He's just one of my favorite. He's just one of my favorites. Absolutely. And I really do enjoy his work. I enjoy the way he lets the readers in and the audience into his process, to his life, to how hard it is to write a book and what that experience is like, all that and more.

So we get into a lot of that stuff, his early days, how he got into this business, writing books, the book he wrote about the Kobe and Shaq Lakers, so much to get to. I won't keep rambling. I will let you enjoy the conversation. Here is my interview, my conversation with the one and only Jeff Perlman. I hope you enjoy it. I have to say, though, and again, you know, not to make this about me. That's what we're taught as journalists. The first time, like, you write a great sub stack. I write for sub stack as well.

And I mean, it's just like yours and Will Leach's are my two favorite because it's about stuff that I care about, journalism, fatherhood, things of that nature. And a few months ago, you were kind of like ranking some of the, I don't know, good sports writers out there. And you included me on the list. I don't even know if you remember this. And I was blown away because I didn't even know that you knew who I was. And I know you're not a big fight fan or anything like that. And so I was like shocked. And you linked to a story that I was particularly proud of about Nick Diaz. And I was blown away by that. So I just want to say thank you for including me. That was a huge, I don't know if you realize how big of a deal that was to me, but it was a massive deal. So thank you.

It's kind of funny. Like, um, well, you're welcome, obviously, but you're really good at what you do. And, um, it's weird. Like I suddenly I've become like elder Statesman where people will be like, ah, I've read your books and that for years, or I've read your stuff for years. And you're like, oh my God, I'm so freaking old. And you'll see, you get to this point where you're like, you hear all compliments and stuff like that. And they're very appreciative, very much appreciated. But it's also a reminder of how long you've been around. It's sort of trippy. How are you dealing with that? I'm dealing with that now as well. I'm turning 40. And for the first time, I'm starting to feel like I'm the old, I used to be the younger

guy always. How do you deal with that? It's very weird. I'm 49, so I turn 50 in a few months. Wow. So I'm 10 years ahead of you. It's weird. It's really weird. My wife's grandmother is 102 and in great health and drives and has a trainer, like crazy, defies odds. And I asked her once about what does it feel like to be, I think she was 99 at the time. What does it feel like to be 99? And she's like, it doesn't really feel different than being 79. Everyone just perceives you differently. And I really feel like, like,

I'm talking to you just as an example. I'm not thinking, oh, I'm talking to a younger guy. Or if I have friends who are in their twenties or thirties, I consciously am not thinking, oh, I'm so old compared to them, but they're generally thinking it like they'll make references to how you've been around a while, or they'll make references to things that maybe you're not in on or stuff like that. And you start feeling that creep in more and more music that you maybe don't listen to these days. Or I had a really rough, that might be too strong word. I took my son two weeks ago to a Tyler, the creator concert, and I love hip hop. And I've been, I was raised on hip hop and, you know, et cetera, but I was

had to be in an arena of 25,000 people. One of the 10 oldest people there. And at one point I tweeted something out and someone's reply was, why are you there? And it's just like, those things actually hurt. Like they actually hurt and you feel them and you're aware of that. You know, you know you're you're you're older than you're younger if you would have told the uh the younger version of yourself let's say back in uh i don't know 93 94 something like that that at 50 your life would be this that you'd be doing what you're doing that you would have accomplished what you've accomplished that your family would be what it is would you have signed up for this or Or has this even exceeded your expectations, your dreams?

Exceeded by a million. I mean, by a million. My goal, I went to the University of Delaware, and my goal, I graduated in 94. My goal was to write for Sports Illustrated. That was it. And I envisioned that as something that would happen maybe around now in my life. I viewed it as a big goal, Sports Illustrated. And I got hired there very young. I got hired there at 24 and left at 30. And it's interesting because when you achieve a goal, sometimes chasing the goal is more rewarding than achieving the goal. You achieve the goal and then you're there and you're always thinking, what's next? What's next? The idea when I was in college that I would write books wasn't in my head. The idea that something like a book becoming an HBO series, definitely not in my head. Living in Southern California, which is dreamy, not in my head. So it's exceeded my expectations

times a million. And the thing that keeps me, despite getting older as we all are, the thing that sort of keeps me juiced is like, I enjoy my career more now than I ever have. And I feel like, unlike an athlete who by this age is long retired, I feel like I'm better now than I was. I feel like I have more awareness and more knowledge and more tools in the kit. And I feel like I'm just better. I'm a better journalist than I was 20 years ago. So that keeps me going. The idea of reaching your dream destination is something that I can relate to. I felt that way about ESPN. My time there didn't go very well. It didn't turn out to be the dream that I thought it was going to be.

For you to make it to SI and to be there for six years, did that turn out the way you thought it was going to be? And of course, I have to ask you about the John Rocker stuff. I will in a moment. But just the actual time, making it to your dream spot at such a young age, did it turn out to be what you thought it was going to be? It did. It was amazing. It was great. It really was great. Sports Illustrated was a dream world. And I remember when I was promoted to staff, so they had tiers. You start as a reporter,

which is a fact checker. Then you go write a reporter, which is a fact checker, but you get to write a little. Then staff writer, then senior writer. Once you're a staff writer, you can live wherever you want, and you basically get to write. I remember I was promoted. When you're promoted, you get to go to this meeting, the State of Sports Illustrated meeting. It would be held every December. It'd be first an office meeting with all the writers. Then they take you all out to some fancy-dancy lunch.

Then there'd be the huge Sports Illustrated holiday party. This is stuff. I mean, there's no relation to what goes on today. Like town cars would send you home. The party probably costs $300,000. They would fly everyone in. It was big time. And I remember the first time I sat in the meeting as a staff writer and you're in this room and you're looking around and you're in the room and there's Jack McCallum and there's Phil Taylor and there's Steve Russian and there's Rick Riley and there's Gary Smith and there's Lee Montville. And you're just, holy crap. Like I'm, you almost wanted to cry. Like, you know, it was amazing to me and it was a great run. I just, um, I just got tired of covering sports after a while. And I had that

moment, the moment we were like, there has to be something more than another weekend covering the Reds playing the Brewers. Like there has to be something more in my life than that. So it wasn't Sports Illustrated. It was just the repetitiveness kind of got to me. Do you remember where the dream started for you? Like, why did you want to get into this and how did that come about this world of sports journalism? Well, it's funny because I'm from a very small, rural, arch-arch conservative town in upstate New York, kind of upstate New York, called Mayo Pack, New York. None of my parents were into sports. Neither of my parents.

My brother was into sports. No one in my family cared about sports. Nobody. And we used to go to Fort Lauderdale every February for, for, to visit my grandparents, Molly and Nat. And they would take us just for me. We'd go to Yankee spring training one day. They take us to Yankee spring training one day. Nobody wanted to go except me, but we go. And I remember standing, standing along the railings and you could ask for the

autographs. You buy these like programs for a quarter or 50 cents and you stand there and Ken Griffey Sr. would come by and Billy Martin would come by and you get their autographs. And I look back at those things and I was asking for autographs of sports journalists along with ballplayers, but I have autographs of like the sportscasters on my thing. And I was always enamored. I just always was. I was always enamored by the colors and the flair of sports, the different ethnicities, the different cultures,

lamb chop sideburns, big chains, cool names, Joaquin Andujar, Gary Tambleton, Gary with two R's, like all that stuff really did it for me. And I'm just going to spring training and seeing it in the flesh. And then the library where I grew up in Mayo Pack, New York, the Mayo Pack Public Library, they came to know me as the guy who used to come in and get the

sports books. I would always run. It was a mile from my house. I would run to the library, pick up sports books, come home. And they started calling me and they'd be like, Jeff, Bo Jackson's autobiography is in. We'll hold it for you. And I think keep it behind the desk and I'd run down, get the book, come back. So all these little moments like kind of add up, there's no single moment, but there's moments of loving sports and reading about sports and digging into books and digging into sports illustrated. It all kind of made, gave me this love, this early love. One thing that I love about reading your stuff and and it's almost like you can follow your career. And this is what I appreciate about you and the way you kind of, you know, present your content. Someone could be a fan of yours, read all your books, you can read,

you know, Three Ring Circus and show that, but they could also be a fan of like your ancillary stuff, the sub stack, the podcast, and all that. And I actually liked that stuff more because you kind of let us in on the process. You let us know about how you're feeling, what you're doing, promoting things of that nature. And the one thing that always comes up, at least for me, is like, you have a deep, passionate love of journalism. Like you love journalism. Why do you love it so much? I mean, there aren't that many things I've had any skill at. Like I wasn't, I mean, that's probably the beginning. Like I was an okay athlete, but not great.

And I have my, I mean, told the story, but I had this moment. I was the sports editor of the Mayo Pack High School Chieftain. And I wrote a story, cheerleading, sport or activity with a question mark. And the answer was, my answer was activity. It's not really a sport. It shouldn't be treated as a sport. And I'm like this geeky kid, Mayo pack, New York, you know, 160 pounds, six foot two, never kissed a girl, senior of high

school. And I write the story, it comes out and I'm surrounded by the cheerleaders and they're yelling at me. And it's, at least in my memory, it's like Friday, the day before game day. So they're all wearing their cheerleader outfits and they're wearing their perfume and their hair's done right. And everything's bouncy. And you're just me, little Jeff, 17 or 18 years old.

And they're paying attention to you. Like they notice you, that you matter. And it's a shitty way to, that should not be a motivation to become a journalist, to have cheerleaders yelling at you to be the center of attention. I mean, I think that's a lot of poison of the, of the business, but I like the idea that you have a voice with a pen and the people, you can have an opinion and put it out there. You have a stance or like, I love bringing it. This is really does it for me. Like I wrote a book about the USFL, long defunct football league. Nobody was talking about the USFL. And I'm not saying because of my book, a million people are, I like the idea that you can write something

and make it tangible again. And people pick up this book and it's like, oh yeah, this and this. And I haven't thought about that in 40 years, or maybe I never thought about that. Or maybe I'm someone who wasn't old enough to remember the USFL. And I'm reading about this thing for the first time. Like that kind of stuff really, really does it for me, like really, really does it for me in a big way. And so when you're, you know, coming up and you're in high school, and you're talking to people about this dream, did you have parents who were supportive of the dream? Did you have a family that was supportive? Or were they kind of parents, family members who were trying to tell you to go down, you go down a more traditional path?

All right. So I always tell how my mom was always like, I met because I was in, I think I was maybe a junior in high school or sophomore in high school. And I told her one day, I'm going to write for Sports Illustrated. Like, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to write for it. And I knew it. Like, I just freaking, I don't know why, I just knew it.

And my mom was like, you need to be, you know, you need to be realistic with Jewish family in New York. You need to be a lawyer. You need to be a doctor. Think about those careers. And she mom was like, you need to be realistic. With Jewish family in New York, you need to be a lawyer. You need to be a doctor. Think about those careers. And she wasn't actually discouraging me. To her, saying, I'm going to write for Sports Illustrated was the equivalent of someone coming along today and saying, I'm going to be Beyonce. Or I'm going to be a movie star. I'm going to be a movie star.

And your parents are going to be, all right, but you need to be realistic. The truth of the matter is, when I was in high school, I would lie in my parents' bed, read them every article I wrote for the Mayo Pack high school chieftain, read them out loud. Every story that they could not care less about, I'm sure, about high school wrestling or cross country, they would read to me. And I would, I mean, I would read to them and they would listen. My dad used to, he worked at Stanford, Connecticut, and he would stop at the Stanford library and bring me home. He would take out eight, 10 sports books and bring them home to me.

You know, my parents paid for my college education, you know, and recently my mom, I showed my mom the pilot episode for the, my mom is not an emotional person. She does not show her emotions. And I showed her the pilot episode to winning time and she got really teary eyed. And it really meant something to me. Like that really meant something to me. Like it's just, I don't think they saw this career happening either. Like any sort of career like this. I'm sure they in their minds, if they even thought about it, it's like a lark. You do it for a couple of years and then you go back to law school. How do you feel about the state of sports illustrated now uh heartbroken heartbroken i um and i i want to say the uh the editor of si steve canella is one of my really good friends and a great guy and it's nothing he's done like he's a pro's pro and is trying his best but i mean it's obviously a shell of what it was.

The website struggles. You see the company that bought it, the Maven trying to turn it into as much of a branding. I saw the other day, people always, they always send me links to different, like, what do you think of this? And it's like sports, sports illustrated theme resorts. That's a new sports illustrated theme resorts. And like, it sucks sucks but i don't really know the alternative nobody's buying people aren't buying magazines anymore print magazines anymore

and they missed the boat they could have been espn as far as like a website many years ago but they myself included because i was there just everyone missed the boat do you think we ever go back to a time where um sports illustrated and or magazines are relevant again or do you think that's just a thing that is is done at this point print magazines yeah no done done 100 god okay i don't i don't even see a fantasy land where every now and then you'll see you'll see someone some company or someone come up with a new magazine and i as optimistic as i try to be i'm always like wow what's the point nobody reading print. Do you think that local papers are dead? I think local papers are battling. I mean, my friend John Wertheim did a really good segment

on 60 Minutes. Did you see it? Yep. Yep. And it's crushing. And I think there's a real need for local papers. And I think people absorb local information and there's nothing better than seeing your wedding announcement in a local paper or your kid's Little League game in a local papers. And I think people absorb local information and there's nothing better than seeing your wedding announcement in a local paper or your kid's little league game in a local paper. I still have all my clippings from high school, cross country and track in a scrapbook. And I think there could be a real place for local journalism if these corporate douchebags don't keep seeing it only as a profit. It's just greed that's ruining it more than anything. So I was thinking of you recently because, actually not because of Winning Time, which we've referenced here. Winning Time is the 10-part series that's coming out March 6, HBO,

on the Showtime Lakers, the dynasty of the 80s. You wrote the book in 2014. There's a great backstory as to how this all got made. It's honestly an incredible, inspiring, somewhat surreal story. And to listen to you tell it is amazing as well. But the reason I actually thought to reach out to you was because I experienced something that was somewhat similar to what you experienced with John Rocker. And I experienced it last week.

However, unlike your situation with John Rocker, mine happened live. It happened live on my show. So just as a background for those that don't know, John Rocker, very famous baseball player for the Atlanta Braves, 1999, he's one of the best closers in baseball. You do a feature on him. You spent some time, well, first you spent some time with him like at the ballpark, but then you went and actually spent time with him in Georgia. And he turned out to be a completely different person than you had originally thought and what you were writing about. I wouldn't say, just to be clear, it's not like I ever thought of his mother Teresa. Sure, sure. But correct me if I'm wrong, like the original premise was like misunderstood, whatever, right? Yeah. But then he starts spewing all kinds of, you know,

racist things, talking about the seven, I mean, it's one of the most famous pieces in the history of Sports Illustrated. Ironically, I believe it ran in the final issue of the 20th century, right? Which is an incredible little footnote. And that changed, I think, the course of your career and his career. And so why I thought of you was because I did an interview last week with a fighter named Bryce Mitchell. And he's a somewhat famous UFC fighter. And basically, the interview starts with him saying, I want to interview you. I host a show where I interview fighters live know, our beliefs. And I say, sure, let's do it. I thought he was going to ask me about, you know, sports things, MMA things, et cetera. He then moves the camera to a different section of his, I believe trailer that he's living in. And there's a flag there and two AR-15s. And we get it and he takes out a pistol as well. And we get into like a little bit of a conversation about the vaccine, COVID, how the government, in his opinion, kind of staged Sandy Hook and the Las Vegas shooting. I mean,

it goes in a totally different direction. And I'm having an internal conflict within myself, like, do I engage? Do I not engage? Do I let him speak? He's saying some really outlandish things for me. And I thought of you and the conflict that you must have had. You see the difference. Mine was live, yours wasn't. But if I could ask you, when that John Rocker thing happened, when that day happened, how close were you and SI to actually not running it because it was so offensive? Was that ever a discussion or did you know that you had to because it was so offensive no never a discussion it was um it's funny because after the story ran there were journalists who said i wouldn't run that i would have done that because you have to let they felt they kind of felt you need to go back to rocker and be like just so you know you know just so you know you sure this is

blank are you sure this is what you want to say is this really what you meant and i you know i've said from the beginning like I don't view it my job to protect racists. I just don't. We're homophobes or anyone. I'm not your protector. We're adults. If I'm writing about a kid, absolutely. John Rocker was 20-something years old. And I was a guy with a tape recorder, a notepad, introduction, hey, I'm Jeff from Sports Illustrated. That's you. No, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I just think it's important. Every now and then, the New York Times will profile some hard right guy. They'll do a profile of an Alex Jones or Sean Hannity. People will rip the New York Times. This is terrible. You're giving them a platform,

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I hate that. I never agree with it. I never support that. You need to show who these people are. They exist in this country. It is important to profile them. It is important to show who they are. And it doesn't mean you're cheerleading them to let them show themselves. It just doesn't. They exist. Factually, we're not the only one. Liberal Jews from New York like myself are not the only people in this country who exist. In fact, we're the minority. So to me, when a story like a John Rocker comes along, or even your guy comes along, I want to see that. And I don't want to see it because I want to see a stupid conflict. I want to see it because I want to know what this guy thinks. And I actually want to understand why he thinks that way. So I think the more we bring light to people, the better of a certain, that's where we are

as journalists, I think. I give you a lot of credit because you actually came face to face with John several times after the story ran. Did you ever think, and like, you didn't have to do that. A lot of people would not go seek that. And I actually relate a lot to your guilty conscience because I'm the same way. The fact that you continue to feel bad about things, reach out, et cetera. Did you ever think that he would attack you, that he would hit you, that he would try to strike you in some way?

Yes. So the story came out at the end of 99. In 2000, I was in a meeting at SI and we were debating. Someone needed to go cover the Yankees and the Braves playing in Atlanta. And I said, I would go because just real, like I was a young reporter. This is a true story. I was a young reporter at the National Tennessean in 1994, 1996. I wrote a story about a David Lipscomb football game. I was a high school there, David Lipscomb. And their quarterback was named David Kirkow. And I wrote, I always remember this. I wrote in the story, it was a high school football game. David Kirkow had an up and down game.

His passes either went way too up or way too down. That was a lot, right? Good line. Not set, but not set's a big deal. But like, he's a high school kid. And that week I got tons of letters and angry calls from Lipscomb parents. How dare you do that? How do that? I had an editor named Larry Taft. He was the prep setter at the Tennessean. And he said to me, and this is almost 30 years ago now, 20 something years ago,

I had already accepted a job at Sports Illustrated. I had one more week working at the Tennessean. He said, for your last assignment, I'm sending you to cover Lipscomb this week. And I was like, I don't want to go. They're going to kill me. And he's like, you need to be accountable. Like, this is what journalism is. You have to be accountable. You have to show up. I go to this game. I'm super nervous. And I'm on a prep reporters. You go to the sideline around the fourth quarter. So you can get the players when they're coming off the field at the end. And I'm standing there, Lipscomb is winning big.

And David Kirkow walks up to me surrounded by a bunch of his teammates. And he goes, don't you ever come around here again? And that was my last assignment at the Tennessee end. Wow. Somewhere David Kirkow was convinced he ran me out of town. Right. But that lesson accountability showing up Larry Ta, has stuck with me for years. And it's not fun. Like, it sucks.

And I went down to Atlanta, and my dream was I would go there, and I would walk around, and I wouldn't see him. And then I could say, well, I tried, but I didn't see him. Like, inside my head, I'm not so courageous. Like, you know, I wanted the glory of it without running into him, but I knew I needed to go down to the Braves clubhouse. I had no reason to, but I knew I needed to, to at least make the effort. And I'm walking down the hallway. This is Turner field, the bowels of Turner field from the Yankee visiting clubhouse to the Braves clubhouse. And I hear a voice and it goes, you don't know how long I've been waiting for this. And I look up and sitting there waiting for me

in street clothes was John Rocker. And when he came up to me, I thought there was a decent chance he would punch me in the face and he didn't. And we'd be talking from my yacht right now. What did he say? You have no idea what you did. He's jabbing me in the chest.

He's like, you have no idea what you did to me. You have no idea what you did to my family. My in the chest he's like you have no idea what you did to me you have no idea you did to my family my only moment i was i've told the story no times but my good moment was he's like i drove you around atlanta i introduced you to my family i bought you lunch and i said well i paid for lunch well f you blah blah blah blah blah blah and i always say you should always pay for lunch don't let them hold anything over you yeah and uh it was even now when i tell that story my hands get sweaty like clammy it is it was the most intense moment probably of my journalistic career anyone come to your defense yeah um well i wouldn't say to my defense but the yankees had an announcer who has since passed since bot named bobby mercer he was a former

yankee player and as soon as it ended he came up to me and he's like, man, are you okay? And I was like, I was so grateful. I always remember Bobby Mercer and his kindness. And it was super trippy because it happened. And I went up to the press box and I sat down on my computer just to, I probably didn't have anything to write just to normalize myself. And I turn around and all these cameras are pointed at me. And then I go into the press box and all these reporters are coming up to me. And I have this vivid memory. Someone who worked in the press box asked me to autograph a baseball. Now that thing had that baseball lost value the moment I signed it. But I wondered, is someone somewhere holding this ball right now trying to figure out what does this say? Who is this guy? But I always remember like signing a baseball afterwards and the terror of it all.

I read that when all this broke, I think either when it broke or when they announced the suspension, you came home and there were like 73 voicemails at your home. So this is like pre-cell phone, pre-social media. How do you think you would have reacted to this? If this happened today and with Twitter and just the flood, Facebook, how do you think you would have reacted to this? Like if this happened today and with Twitter and, you know, like just the flood Facebook, how do you think it would have affected you? Uh, probably not. Well, um, it's interesting though. I think in a way in the modern era, let's say that literally happened now. Yeah. It would be 24 hours in the news cycle. And that's it. Uh, first of all, not to get too overly political,

Trump has said worse things and Marjorie Taylor Greene and Matt Gaetz and all these people have said far worse things than John Rocker said. John Rocker basically said he doesn't like foreigners. Well, you hear that from the Republicans every freaking day. And he said he doesn't like, I forgot what it was, some homophobic slur on the subway

and blah, blah, blah, and the foreigners. And nowadays, it's stuff you hear every day and you see every day on social media from different people. So I don't think it would have the same staying power, but I would not enjoy those 24 hours on Twitter. At some point, my wife would say, you just need to get off. And I'm like, yeah, you're right. And I would. Do you think your career ends up the way it did, the way it has, if that doesn't happen? I do. I, um, it's funny.

People make more out of that. I think career wise than they, they should. And I'm not, it was a big story for me, but like, I still was a senior writer at sports illustrated at the time or staff writer. And that was a big job at the time. Like that was no, at the time, like that was a big job. That was one of the prime plum jobs in sports media. And I was covering major league baseball for SI kind of living this dream. And I, the book deal, my first book about the 86 Mets, well, I did get it after

Rocker. It couldn't, it couldn't have hurt me, but I don't think, I don't think John Rocker was the most, I think getting hired by Sports Illustrated was much more the moment that sort of sent me on my way than writing that John Rocker story. Last thing on Rocker, when's the last time you spoke to him in any kind of way or interacted with him? Oh man. Years and years ago, a magazine in Atlanta did a story about him. And I asked the writer, I said, you have Rocker's email address? And he gave me his email address. And I wrote the writer, I said, do you have Rocker's email address? And he gave me his email address. And I wrote something like, Hey, cause I'm like, I'm dumb, but I really like having peaceful resolutions, even with assholes. Like I really do. I don't know what it is, but I just do.

And I wrote him an email and I was like, Hey, you know, it's been a long time and you know, water under the bridge or something. I hope your, you know, hope your life has gone well or something. I don't know. And the writer from the Atlanta magazine called me and he's like, I shouldn't have given you his email. I just, he was really pissy. You wrote him. Oh, wow. And that was it. Yeah. That was it. Um, when there would be a good 30 for 30 on that story though, I will say. Golly. Yes. And we're, uh, well, yeah, we're over 20 years. So yeah, it would, uh, there's

been enough time since, uh, the decision to go So yeah, it would, there's been enough time since. The decision to go from like, you know, the week to week, month to month guy, which you still kind of dabble in from time to time, as opposed to the guy now who is like churning out these incredible books. Again, nine time New York time bestseller. So off the top of my head, 86 Mets, Walter Payton. You got Bo Jackson coming out.

You've got Barry Bonds. You've got the 80s Lakers. You've got the Kobe Shaq Lakers, USFL. This is off the top of my head. I should have had the list. What am I missing? What am I missing? I don't even... Favre? Did you say Favre? Brett Favre, Gunslinger. And they're all amazing. And I have them all. And I loved every single one. The decision to go from the SI guy to the book writing guy, how does that come about? First, I never make this correction, but I'm going to do it here because we're both- Please. Publishing companies always say, the New York Times bestselling author of X number of books, right? That's how they phrase it.

Because once being in New York Times, having the New York Times bestselling author thing on your book cover is like a black American Express card in some ways in the publishing world. Yeah. Six of my books have been bestsellers, not nine. So it's like, so no, I don't, I just, I hate when people are like nine times. I apologize. No, no, you shouldn't. Cause you're actually puffing me up more than I deserve is what I'm saying.

The Bonds book sold. Nah. The Clemens book. Clemens. Bombed. And that's fine. Cause it wasn't very good. And then actually three ring circus, which wind up being one of my biggest sellers did not make the list. It was like, really, it was a time when, um, political books were all over the map. It was kind of Trump fever and I just didn't make it. So, uh, I thought that one, you couldn't

have scripted it better because it came out in September. They win the championship in October and the weirdest year ever. It was like incredible timing i thought i will tell you you are always better off having a book on a team come out when that team sucks a nostalgic kind of team like uh someone with winning time told me the other day they're like it's too bad the lakers are terrible this year and i'm like too bad this is the greatest thing you guys have going because the people pine for the good old days when a team sucks, when a team is rolling along, all they want to talk about is that team. That's interesting. Okay. Wow. I never thought of that. So good timing for Chris Herring, who I heard on your pod. I love Blood in the Garden. I'm a Knicks fan, so that definitely

scratched the itch. So why do you make that decision to go from the magazine guy to the book guy? Sorry. So I was at Sports Illustrated and I basically got tired and I took a job, interestingly, at Newsday, a newspaper in New York. This is like one of those things where people have an album that nobody heard. This is like my album that nobody heard, that nobody, even my friends forget happened. I just wanted to get away from sports. And I took a job in Newsday roaming the streets of New York city, writing lengthy features about whatever I found interesting.

So like there's a performer called the naked cowboy who stands in time square, you know, this guy in boots and hat. And I did 2,500 words on the naked cowboy, you know, in his life. And like, so I did stuff like that and it was awesome. And then Newsday really started to, you know, wet the bed and they wanted everyone to come in every day and they wanted stories to max out at 500 words and there's going to be more trends. And I was like, I don't need this. And I had already had a book deal for the bad guys one, my first book about the Mets, which I did only because my friend, John Wertheim had a book deal. And I was a little like, well, if he can do it, maybe I can do it too. You know, like he's great. And I kind of want to, I aspire to be some, you know, something in this world. And I don't know. So I tried writing a book, kind of enjoyed it was doing it while I was at Newsday. Newsday's crumbling. I live an hour from the Newsday offices. I do not want to spend an hour every day on the LIE because they're forcing writers to come in. I said to my wife, I was like, I'm just going to, let's just try that. I'm going to try this. And it was nerve wracking. I'm just going to write books. I'm just going to

write books in freelance. And she's always been incredibly supportive. She's a writer herself now. And I just did it. And the funny thing is the bonds book, my second book did not sell well. And I was like, crap, like, this isn't good. You know, like, am I going to get another book deal? And my third book about the nineties Cowboys, which was called boys will be boys. Um, it was a big seller for me, like a really big seller for me. And it made the list. I remember I was doing a book appearance at a Barnes and Noble by the SMU campus in Dallas. And my agent, who kind of

reminded me a little of Ari Gold, like a feisty pit bull of a guy from Entourage, Ari Gold, he calls me up and he goes, you're number seven on the New York Times list, mofo, and click. And it was like this moment, like this, like, okay, I live to see another day. And since then, it's just kind of worked out and I've gotten fair book deals. And here I sit. Um, quick aside, uh, I'm a big fan of the podcast, two writers slinging Yang. I love it because I'm a huge fan of journalism. Like I love all things journalism listening to, especially when it comes to sports. I actually really do enjoy, uh, this is coming from a very sincere place. Uh, the, the podcast that you do with

your wife. I like to hear the dynamic I like to see how she supports you you support her your wife is Catherine Perlman she's a social worker you had one out recently I think it actually came out well I'm dating myself

but you know before the winning time series premieres it's great I really enjoy those by the way so I hope that you guys keep doing that I wanted to ask you about the process of writing a book because it is, to me, very daunting. And it seems like an incredible, I mean, just like, just an incredible pursuit. You need a lot of strength. You need a lot of courage to do it. And yet, when I hear you talk about it time again and write about it,

you know, you often quote that Lee Monfield line, you know, two years in the cave, you know, two weeks out in the sun. It seems like a process that is not very fun. It feels at least from the outside looking that it is miserable yet you have now done it 10 times. Why do you put yourself through this? It's like, I'm not in any way, shape or form comparing writing a book or myself to Kobe Bryant. I just want to say at all, but. But I read something he said when I was researching that book, The Reading Circus, that kind of hit me actually, where he was like, the glory isn't playing in the championships. The glory isn't so-and-so.

The glory is in a dark gym hoisting up 4,000 jumpers and doing it and doing it. And I just think the grind makes it all worthwhile. It just does. The grind makes it worthwhile. And when a book comes out, there's no better moment for me, at least, when the first book arrives, not in the bookstore, but at your house, the publishing company will send you a box of books, or maybe they'll send you one. And to see it all in this one package is an incredibly rewarding and emotional experience for me. Incredibly so. And I will walk, when I'm walking, I will carry that book with me for like a week. I'll walk the dog and I'll be reading through it. And I'm looking for every

error, but I'm also just kind of basking in it. And I just like, you can't have that without the work. Like you just can't. And writing a book is, I'm not saying it's like firefighting or working for the legal defense fund. It's not that level of whatever, of anything, but it just beats the crap out of you. It really, if you want to do it well, or at least try to do it well, it beats the crap out of you. And I usually give myself two years and one and a half of those are spent just researching. So I am from day one, my first thing I'll do, Bo Jackson, USFL, whoever, go to eBay and buy everything. Every media guide, every book about the person, trading cards sometimes.

Like when I did the Shaq Kobe book, Shaq released a bunch of CDs. I'm finding the CDs. Then I'm going through the liner notes. I'm trying to find the people on the liner notes to call them. And it just becomes this obsessive, obsessive. You never think it's good enough. You never think you have enough. You're always afraid of the holes you have. You worry that you left something incomplete. You worry that you're not getting it right. It just becomes this thing. And it's very unhealthy. Like you do spend a year and a half, really two years thinking about one subject. I mean, like Walter Payton nearly drove me to freaking insanity where I was actually going on runs through my neighborhood and kind of picturing

Walter Payton next to me talking like this weird, just weird, you know, like weird. And you become obsessive. And my wife, who is the best person, just the best. I mean, she also reached points where she's like, I can't hear another thing about Bo Jackson. I can't hear another thing about Walter. And I totally get it because you become this, you want to build up a library. Like I always say, by the end of this, I need to have the best Bo Jackson library in the world. And I'm pretty sure I do. I'm sure my office is the best Bo Jackson library in the world. I know. So am I correct in assuming that the Walter Payne book, uh, sweetness is your favorite of the nine? I mean, it was the most daunting and it was the hardest and it was

probably the most rewarding, but also the most difficult release I've experienced. In a lot of ways, the USFL book is probably the one I look to the most these days because I was told repeatedly not to do it. My agent told me not to do it. I got rejected nonstop by publishing companies. I knew it was a great story. It didn't mean I would tell it well, but I knew it was a great story. And I just pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed. When that thing made the bestseller list, it was just a moment of validation that I don't give myself that many of those. The reason I asked specifically about the Walter Payne book, I do think you hold it in very high regard and it was very well received. Although I had also read that maybe one of the biggest regrets of your career came as a result of that book. Is that accurate? Well, you're probably referring to me

writing that Walter Payton had herpes. Yes, herpes. And, and, and you also broke the news that he had a child out of wedlock, correct? Yeah. And I was, that, that to me was fair. Like that actually, basically I always say this, like when you're writing a biography, you are telling the full story of someone like that's it. And, and there are a million objections that I understand to this profession where people are like, well, that's not cool. And that's not, my wife says to me, I don't know how you do this. Like, I don't know how you do this knocking on people's doors. How do you do that? You know, and not how, and like, wow, that's amazing. Like, how the hell do you do it? Like, why would any human being want to do that to someone else?

Like, I actually get it. And you're writing about Walter Payton, a person who is dead, who has two kids and a widow and tons of fans. And you're finding out things about him that are not flattering. You just are. And you are telling, you can't tell the full story of Walter Payton, as an example, know that he had a kid out of wedlock and not delve into that and how he treated that kid and what he did. You can't.

That's why that Bill Cosby biography that came out before we knew all this was so flawed because the author didn't delve into material that kind of defined who he was. Now, it sucks because a lot of people don't want to know this stuff, but this is what biography is like biographies or histories of people. And maybe it's trivial because it's sports. I just don't view it that way. I take it seriously. So in that book, I found out Walter Payton had herpes and I included it and it added nothing to the book, like nothing to the book. And it just, in hindsight, and I feel like every book, many of my books, I have moments where I'm like, I don't know, is that really necessary? Like with Walter Payton, did I really need to

put him up? He had herpes. I found out a medical report. It was true. What does that add to anyone? With my 86 Mets book, I really ridiculed Gary Carter too hard in his role in that team. I just was too flippant about it all. And I look back, I was young when I wrote that book, but I look back and I think that was unnecessary. That was me trying to be smarter than I am. In every book, you have moments where you're like, maybe that was dumb. Not always, but often you actually don't get a chance to speak to the person that you're profiling or who is a central character in your book.

Barry Bonds doesn't participate. Roger Clemens. Does that actually make it easier on you in a weird way because there's no emotional attachment to the person? I would say no. I would always rather have you. I was trying to put a positive spirit.

Yeah, no. It's never great it uh no never it sucks i don't like it more often than not you're not like you're not talking to trump you're not talking to bonds it feels like well you're not talking to kobe right we go through them real quick 86 mats i got most of the members of the team so yes bonds i didn't get but i had interviewed him at length for sports illustrated a year earlier so i can at least make the argument i I talked to him. 90s Cowboys, got Irvin, got almost every member of the team, but didn't get Eakman or Emmitt Smith.

Clemens didn't get Clemens. Walter Payton, he had died, but I did interview his kids and most of his family members and a million teammates. Favre was a weird, Showtime Lakers, I didn't get Magic and Kareem or Riley. But I got – the thing is, and I do talk about this a lot. To me, like when you're doing team books, Wes Matthews and Mark Landsberger are just as important, if not more important, than Magic and Kareem because they were there for it all, but they've never been asked about it.

Like Magic has told these stories 8 trillion times. And you like to think the reporter in you would be able to get new stuff. But that's a crapshoot when a guy's talked that much. But going to Bridgeport, Connecticut and talking to his backup point guard for hours is gold. So with team books, I don't know. Favre was the weirdest one, by far the weirdest one. I went down to Miss – I was working on the book, his sister, Brandy, who's lovely. I FaceTimed her, DM'd her on Facebook.

And I was like, Hey, I'm writing a book about Brett. Is there any way when I come to Mississippi to report it, if you would, uh, you'd maybe grab coffee. And she wrote, uh, well, let me know when you're here. Okay. I go to Mississippi. I DM her. She's like, why don't you just come by the house? Okay. I go to the house. She's there. Her mom is there, Benita. And they're basically like, is Brett helping you with the book? I said, no, I'm still working on it, but not so far.

And they're like, all right, what do you want to know? And they gave me hours, sent me home with scrapbooks, got his brothers, got his uncles, got tons of relatives, but never got Brett Favre. Very weird, but cool. I still text his mom, which is the weirdest thing. I'm still following Brett Favre's mom. Yeah, who I love. She's great. Okay. So Kobe, you don't get Kobe, right? Got Shaq. You got Shaq. So obviously that helps tremendously. I don't know how you feel about this. That's actually my favorite one, probably because I'm a huge basketball fan. Maybe because it was

depressing. It was the pandemic, early days of the pandemic. It was just a great escape. It comes out, of course, after his death, but you did it all before his death. Like right now we're talking, the Bo Jackson book isn't out, but it's, it's finished. What kind of guilt did you have about that, about it coming out? And there's some obviously not so flattering things about Kobe and people are idolizing him. And like, how did you feel? Did you feel strange about having to do the media stuff and all that talking about a guy

who, you know, died in such a tragic manner? Um, I felt more weird than guilty. Like it was very strange. Um, first, when I heard he died, I always need to say this and it's a God's honest truth. My first reaction was just how awful that is. Like by far, my first reaction was, this is terrible. Are you kidding me? Like, are you kidding? Like it was shock and seeing living out here now in Southern California, seeing the reaction, it was almost like a president died out here. It really was. Um, when it got to the book, to thinking about the book, I had had this Walter Payton experience where I wrote Walter Payton, felt really good about the book. Sports Illustrated released a cover excerpt when that kind of thing mattered two weeks before the book came out. It was all about the end of his life, infidelity,

addiction issues, depression. And the backlash was horrible. The worst I've ever gotten. You can still find, if you do book burning sweetness Perlman on YouTube, you will find the book burning a radio station did online live while they were recording. I mean, it was, it was brutal. It was brutal. And eventually people, eventually a lot of people did apologize and said, I, you know, I read the book and it wasn't what I thought, blah, blah, blah. So, okay. But I had that in my, in my experiences when this one's coming out and I just was really nervous about people thinking, here's another guy coming along with a quick hit book on Kobe Bryant. So two things I did is number one, I wrote an author's note at the beginning, sort of explaining that this book is just a tiny part of Kobe Bryant's life. It's not his whole life and

et cetera, et cetera. And number two, I kind of went preemptive and that's where social media helped. I would say a lot, like I would write a lot about my feelings about this book coming out at this time period and to explain to people and to get it out there. Look, this isn't, this isn't a bass Kobe book. And this was written long before he passed and just sort of, I didn't have that medium when Walter Payton, the book sweetness came out. So I think that helped actually. I felt like it did. I was just curious internally, like I never felt salacious. I never felt like you were taking shots. And I listened to a ton of the interviews that you did. And you always preface with things like that.

So much respect. If someone would have told you after, you know, the nine books were done that the 2014 one on the eighties, you know, Lakers, that dynasty showtime would be the one that turns into the TV show on HBO. Would you have predicted that? Or would you have said another one?

No. I always thought Sweetness was the most cinematic, the Walter Payton book. 86 Mets book was the first book I ever had options. Nothing happened of it. 90s Cowboys seems like it lends itself to that North Dallas 40 kind of thing. I'm not saying it should be. I'm just saying when I think of it in my head. Right.

Never in my mind. Not that it couldn't be. It just never entered my head at all. I don't want you to retell the story because I've heard you retell it a lot about how Jim Hecht comes to your house with the hunk of chocolate and the tomato and the wine drink in 2014. It's Easter Sunday. I consume a lot before I speak to someone. And so I don't want you to retell that because I know what it's like to retell stories over and over again, but I would urge anyone to go listen to your podcast, talking about it with your wife. It's a great story. And he comes to your house and he's a very charming

guy. And he says that he wants to option the book. And it seems like you're like, yeah, I've been here before. These things never come to fruition. Could I ask you one thing though, which I'm sure you've replayed in your mind. It appears right now as this show is coming out eight years later, you didn't charge them for this? You made no money off of this? I made money off of it since. I didn't make for the option. So I gave Jim, once HBO buys it, you start getting paid. And the truth of the matter is, it's not like Jim had a ton of money anyway. I probably could have squeezed 5,000 bucks out of them maybe, which isn't nothing, but it's not major Hollywood dough. But I basically, when people come along to option a book, they're basically saying, can you give me X amount of time to write a treatment or

write a script or write something and shop it around? And we have this exclusive agreement. So basically I gave him the agreement to shop it and to work on it without charging him. Okay. What is standard for that? Like, what should you have charged? I mean, I don't really, I've gotten as much as 30,000. The first option I ever got was 30,000 bucks for my metric. And I was convinced it was going to be something and it never became anything. And then every now and then some guy will come along and he'll be like, I'm a aspiring

filmmaker, right? I'm an aspiring filmmaker and I just have a great dream for this. And, and maybe it's the bonds book and nobody's touching the bonds book. And there've been moments where I'll be like, I'll tell you what, buy me a t-shirt and we'll make it a, I'll give you six months. It just sort of depends. But I don't, I do think generally as a rule for people and younger journalists, like you shouldn't be giving your stuff away for free. And the odds are, the odds are generally, if someone can't pay you any money, the odds that's going to happen are very slim. Now this worked out, but it's a one in a million sort of lottery ticket. This is an Adam McKay project. He's a legend. Are you responsible for the divorce of

Adam McKay and Will Ferrell? I am singularly responsible for that. That's you? That's another thing to be guilty about? I was yelling at Will Ferrell. I was like, you got to leave this guy. I was outside his window telling him, yeah, that's me. But they are no longer together because of this project? I mean, that's the word on the street. I just wrote the book. Why did they get into it?

In that case, Jerry Buss is also equally responsible. That's true. I don't know. I didn't know who Adam McKay was until this thing started. So when people are like, oh, Adam, I'm the least in the know Hollywood person, probably in the history of mankind. So when people are like, how's this happening? I'm like, I couldn't even tell you. I don't even know.

How surreal is this for you? Have you seen all 10 parts? I have. I have. And I would imagine not only surreal, probably also incredibly fun and rewarding because you did all the work, you wrote the book, and now it's just like this thing coming to life, right? Like, did you actually work on the shows as well?

Or are you just there as a consultant in terms of like, you're obviously working, but, and you're there and you even have a small little part in it. Your wife does, your kids do. That's amazing. Tiny, tiny. Is it a cameo? Is it. Your wife does, your kids do. That's amazing. Tiny, tiny. Is it a cameo?

Is it an extra? I heard the whole back and forth. But the thing is, you're not actually writing the scripts, right? So you're like able to sit back and enjoy this whole process. It's a really weird experience. I actually told my wife,

so there's a premier party tomorrow night. Wow. And I'm taking my kids and my wife is out of town, so she can't come, but I'm taking my kids and And my wife is out of town, so she can't come. But I'm taking my kids. And my kids are 18 and 15. And they're pretty psyched for it.

And it'll be cool. But it's actually really weird. I haven't actually expressed this. It's kind of like there's a party. And you're invited to the party. And you belong at the party. You do belong at the party. But it's not really your party. They've been amazing they've been nothing short of amazing um mckay has been

awesome kevin messick is produced production assistant i don't know what his title is but the writers they sent me every script they gave us little extra parts in the show um they've asked me a lot of questions about sort of, is this right? Is that right? I've been up there, I think four times on set, but I always like, it's not my, like people are like your show. It's not my show. Like it's a show based on my book that other writers have written. And it's weird. You actually, it's, I don't know if you've ever experienced anything like this. You almost have little fits at times or little sparks of jealousy. This thing is going on and it's really cool and everyone keeps congratulating you, but it's not really mine. It's theirs and I'm a part of it, but I'm not a regular participant. Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense? No, totally.

That's why I was asking about how you're viewing it because like, you're not in the trenches person. You already did the work, which spawned this, but it's not like you're going to set every day. You're not in the edit room. So you're able to like watch this thing kind of grow without you, but it all came from your brain. Right. But it's weird because it's like, you don't want to be in the edit room,

but then you feel a little left out that you're not in the editor. I got, you know what I mean? Like you don't want to be in the edit room but then you feel a little left out that you're not in the editor i got you know what i mean like i have no desire to be in the writer i don't want to do it i've never wanted to do it i've never asked to do it i have no desire to do it but then you see the show possible but it's not my it's not my life can you hear me okay with my internet yeah no you paused there for a second but now i got you um no no i totally understand what you're saying uh how do Yeah, no, you paused there for a second, but now I got you. No, no, I totally understand what you're saying. How do you feel to that point, to a degree?

It seems like Magic has said he's got nothing to do with it. Kareem, same thing. Obviously, Dr. Buss is no longer with us. But based on what I've heard from you, you have had a great relationship with Jeannie Buss. She helped you get Phil Jackson, right, for the Three Rings Circus. But she obviously wants something. The Lakers want nothing to do with it. How do you feel about that?

I am – the magic thing I don't care about at all. Kareem also said don't care. The Jeannie thing bothers me a little because I really like her as a person. And I've had a great relationship with her through the years. I really have. Like she can't, I've said this before, but I was an adjunct professor to school Chapman university out here in orange, California. She came to my class twice to speak to my journalism class. She showed up on her.

She didn't have to do it. There was no, there was no tangible gain for Jeannie Buss, owner of the Lakers coming to my little class with 20 students that happened to speak. She came twice. The second time she brought tickets to give out to the students as like we would do contests and they would get tickets to Laker games. She's one of the best people I've had in my life out here as far as media sports person engagement. Right. And I think I'm kind of dead to her, you know, like I do. I think I'm kind of dead to her. That's the impression I get. And that really kind of, I guess it's not like losing a close friend or a family member. She wasn't a close friend. She was just someone I was friendly with,

but it sort of stings because I don't really know what the hell else I was supposed to do. Like HBO comes along. We want to option. We want to turn your book into a TV series. Like if she's mad at me or upset with me, I don't really understand what I was supposed to do here. Team sports shows turned into movies, like about actual things that happen sometimes can come across as like hokey you know because we see magic magic johnson is magic johnson right he's one of the most you know recognizable faces kareem etc how is it in your mind like how did they how did they do can you can you give us an unbiased uh sort of review of the 10 episodes i think they kind of nailed it actually like. Like I really do.

It's weird for me to watch. I'm the worst viewer of any sports material ever, ever. Nobody in my house wants to watch a sports movie with me or a sports TV show with me. Like 42, the Jackie Robinson movie. I was talking about this. Like I can't watch it. I can't watch it. Or we are Marshall. Like I can't watch those movies because I just see every war, every flaw. Now add into the fact I wrote the book. So I know this material really well. And I think they actually nailed it.

I just like, I think they capture the period incredibly well. The guy who they got to play magic Quincy is phenomenal. Phenomenal. When people say, who who's the best who's your favorite character it's not as great as they are like john c reilly or jason seagull whoever it's quincy isaiah's magic sally field sally field's great yeah great i feel like quincy is the best person in this show wow i. I do. I really do. I just think he nails magic. Nails it a hundred percent. Former division three center at Kalamazoo college, who was like a non, maybe he did community theater. I don't even know theater. I don't even know, but like just this guy. And I said to him before, I was like, how fricking crazy is it?

That like, this is my favorite part about the show. I swear to God, how crazy is it that like, this is my favorite part about the show. I swear to God, how crazy is it that you were this kid from Michigan and there's a Superbowl ad with you in it about an HBO show that you're starring in with this lineup, this murderers row lineup. It's just crazy. And the rags to riches story of a lot of these cast members, it makes my freaking month. Is there going to be a second season? I hope so. They're writing a second season. I know.

I don't know if HBO has officially signed off on it yet. And would that be on what, the 90s? No. So the first season is only 79, 80. Oh, wow. 79, 80. Oh, you got like 10 years of this thing. My book goes through 91 and they optioned Three Ring Circus just in case.

Oh my. I mean, a lot would have to go right, obviously. Did you charge them for that? Of course I did. Okay, good, good, good. Well done. Wow. That is- I learned my lessons. Yes, yes. And so, okay. So that I would imagine is one of the highlights of your career at this point. How many of these books do you have left in you? I mean, 10 is an incredible number. How many do you think you have left in you? I always say, I don't think I could do like, uh, like John Feinstein is kind of the gold standard in this business. Um, to me, he's the best of the best. And the guy who like is the,

really the Prince of this or the King of this industry of sports books and sports biographies. He's probably written 70 books. I don't have that in me even remotely. It just takes too much out of me. I could see maybe another two or three. It just beats you up. I mean, I don't know, maybe. We may laugh at this one day. I just, I'd like to, you know, I just finished my first screenplay, which sounds super Hollywood-y, but I actually got a deal myself and John Wertheim wrote a screenplay and we were hired to do it. So that was different. And that was a fun kind of writing and the joy of not having to build a library about a subject in the same way is pretty good. So maybe there are different kinds of writing. Maybe it just, I morphed my career a

little bit. Would you ever want to do, you know, fiction, anything, you know, like not the, the biographies, you know,

just totally off the beaten path. Do you have any desire for that? I mean, I want my next book to be Tupac, which is way off the beaten path. Okay. So non-sports. Yeah,

definitely not sports. Is that, is that in the works? No, but I'm going to write a proposal for it. I have, I'm writing a proposal for it. That's the next one on the list.

Well, I don't know if it'll happen. Yeah, but in your mind. In my mind, the next book is Tupac. Wow, okay. And do you have a dream one? And is that inappropriate to ask? Because I don't want someone to steal your idea as well. I think Tupac, in a way, is my dream.

He's my favorite. It's weird. Him and Hall & Oates are my two favorite musical artists of all time. I freaking love Tupac Shakur. I think his story is amazing. I think his music is amazing. I feel like no one's ever done the gritty. Everyone's always like who shot Tupac and that's a book, right? Or the music of Tupac. But like, to me, you approach it. I've had people say to me, how can you, who are you to write a Tupac book? And I'm always like, who am I not to write a Tupac book? Like I'm always like, who am I not to write a Tupac book? I will go and I will find every yearbook and I will find every phone book and I will track down every person he went to school in Baltimore with. And I will go on every CD he ever released and I

will go through the loose liner notes and I will freaking track down everyone. And the thing is, when you're passionate about a subject, as I would be with that more than anything I've ever written probably, or at least the same level. Um, I just think you could do some really great stuff. And I, that's a book I've been desperate to do. That's what I really appreciate. I don't think a lot of people appreciate this, the journalism, the work that goes into these books. It's not just sitting around and like copying Wikipedia, the work that you have to do. Like, I love when you talk about the JR Ryder story, knocking on his door, like the stuff that people don't see just to get to these guys is, uh, is very inspiring.

I don't know if I have it in me, but I love to listen to people like you do it as well. But I want to say like, it's also the joy of it. Like, um, this Bo Jackson book because of COVID, I'm good friends with Muren Thader writes for the ringer and wrote a really good Giannis book. And we were talking, like we were both had the, we were working on these books during COVID and she really wanted to go to Greece. And I really need to just go to Alabama for Bo Jackson to talk to different relatives. And when I finally got to go, he grew up in Bessemer, Alabama in this tiny little dirt

street that with a lot of like condemned houses. And for me walking up and down that street, knocking on doors, asking people if they remember Bo or his family is like, that's the moment of real bliss and finding someone who's like, oh yeah, Bo, he grew right up there.

We call him Vincent, blah, blah, blah. Like, I love that stuff so much. And so doing that on a search for Tupac and people will be like I had someone say to me you're a white blah blah blah sports writer like I hate when people say that stuff I am thrilled to go

into places I would never be found places that are unfamiliar to me times a thousand and talk to people knock on doors ask people I don't think I'm like the greatest writer the greatest like I'm relatively willing to walk through my fears or nervousness or apprehensions to get stuff. Like that's one thing you have to do. You have to be able to walk through the nervousness. I just love that. So I love being in surroundings I'm not used to, or I haven't been around or places I've never been before and trying to talk to people like that is the gold of it all. Last question for you. And thank you so much for this. I really, really appreciate it. And I've

enjoyed every second. I've heard you say that, you know, in 50 years, like no one's gonna remember who I am. I'm just some guy who wrote books. I disagree. I think those books are incredible. And I think that you will have a long lasting legacy. You know, the way people talk about Feinstein and other great writers, they will remember you. That's just my opinion. And I'm not just saying that to you to kiss your ass. That's what I believe because you're so good. How do you want to be remembered in this world? It's so funny because I had this talk with Wertheim recently where I was like, did we get the legacy question? And he's like, never. And I was like, yeah, I've got a few times. I heard you guys talking about it and he says he hates it. You asked him and he says he hates it.

So that's why I wanted to ask you. I hate it too. I don't, I don't, no, no don't know no no no no i don't it's a tough one sounds like it just sounds like no no it sounds like such a kind of jerky answer like i just don't care at all like i don't care like to me once i'm dead i'm dead and i just don't care like i really but you you want to be remembered you want to be appreciated don't care zero percent i swear to you, you want to be remembered. You want to be, don't care. Zero percent. I swear to God, I'm not just saying that I just don't care. I don't care. I'll be dead. So if people are, if my books also like inevitably everyone is forgotten. So like legacy, really even George Washington, it's not like anyone remembers him. We just know he was the first president. He has a bridge. So like no one is permanently remembered. So if, I mean, I did have this talk to my dad once where he's like,

the legacy is like, I may not remember my great, great, great grandfather and never met him, but something he did impacted me. And you can make that argument, like something our grandparents did or great grandparents did impacted who we are. You know, like me moving to California, my wife and I moved to California, shifted our family's entire trajectory one way or another. So there is an impact there. But when it comes to journalism, I just don't care. All right. I respect that.

You're doing incredible work, my friend. So the podcast is Two Writers Slinging Yang. You've got the Jeff Perlman sub stack, which is as thorough as it gets. It's an amazing read. The nine books, six of them on the New York Times bestselling list. Yes, six of the nine. I argue nine should be on there. You'll have a seventh soon

with the Bo Jackson book coming out in the fall. That's because you never read my Roger Clemens book. You would not be making that argument. Yeah, that's true. I was never a Clemens guy. Actually, Barry Bonds was a huge dick to me. I used to go to Montreal Expos games. And by the way, I saw you wearing an Expos hat on Instagram.

Are you an Expos fan or are you just like the hat? Just like the hat. All right, fair enough. I used to go two hours, I grew up in Montreal. I used to go two hours early to games to collect autographs. And so I had, and this is 90s. So I met like Tony Gwynn, Barry Bonds, Ricky Henderson, all these dudes.

Some were angels, Gwynn, Angel. Some were total assholes, Ricky Henderson, Barry Bonds. Barry Bonds actually scolded me because I asked him to sign the autograph with a certain pen, a Sharpie as opposed to a pen. And he looked at me and he said, am I doing this or are you doing it? I'll sign it wherever I want to sign it. And I'm like 14 and I was petrified when he said that to me. So yeah, not a nice guy. Anyway, so you've got the sub stack, you've got the podcast, you've got the nine books, soon to be done. And then you've got Winning Time, which is the HBO series, 10-part series, which comes out March 6th

and is already out by the time you'll listen to this on the 80s Lakers. I cannot wait to watch that digested. By the way, all in one shot or is it going to be like every week? Are they coming out all in one shot? Every week. On HBO Max or HBO as well? Both. Both. Wow wow that is big time well done thank you adrian broner as pat riley i'm in i love it i want to ask you a question

yes montreal bagels are you thumbs up or thumbs down massive thumbs up but not even close you're going to tell me new york bagels right no i actually really i like both but i really i had a neighbor in new york named orly who sw swore by Montreal Bagels and introduced us to the phenomenon and they lived up to it. Have you been to Montreal? Yes. To cover a game or just as a. Just as a, yeah, I don't think I ever covered an Expos game. I went as a, this is a tourist and as a guy.

Yeah, they are phenomenal. It's a, it's a, it's a hot debate here on the Northeast, but in the Northeast, but I will forever, you know, I have to go with my Montreal Bagels. Thank you for doing this, Jeff. Good luck with the show. I hope there's a it's a it's a hot debate here on the northeast but uh in the northeast but i will forever you know i have to go with my montreal bagels thank you for doing this jeff good luck with the show i hope there's a season two and keep up the great work and i can't wait and by the way bo jackson is in the fall yes october october okay can't wait for that thanks for doing this and continued success to you and your family oh thank you so much all right so that was great stuff thank you you very much to Jeff Perlman. The show looks tremendous. I am a huge fan of basketball, as you guys know.

And as he said, sometimes it's hard to recreate those moments, those teams, those stories, those personalities into a TV show. And it looks like they nailed it. So that's super exciting. And it's on Showtime. How freaking cool is that? Can't imagine what that's like. He's had a legendary career already. He still has a lot more to do.

He's still in his 40s. Much respect to him. And I just really enjoyed that. I could have talked to him for another hour about his great career. So again, thank you very much to Jeff Perlman. If you want to watch that interview, check it out. YouTube.com slash Ariel Hawani is where you can do so. I appreciate your support there.

Please subscribe to the channel. It helps. Please subscribe to this channel. It helps whether you're on Spotify, Apple, whatever. Follow, download, review, comment, all those things and more help us tremendously. Thank you to the Lovely Feathers for this intro and outro music. It's called Frantic. I love them very much as well. Thank you to the production team and thanks as always to all of you for the support. Hope you enjoyed the conversation. Have a great weekend. I'll talk to much as well. Thank you to the production team. And thanks, as always, to all of you for the support. Hope you enjoyed the conversation. Have a great weekend.

I'll talk to you next week. Thank you.