The Ariel Helwani Show - Jeremy Schaap

Episode Date: May 12, 2022

The prolific sports journalist, TV personality, and author tells Ariel about his 29-year run at ESPN and some of the biggest and most controversial stories he's covered. The guys discuss: his iconic 2005 feature about former American chess grandmaster Bobby Fischer (4:45) the approach that his father, Dick Schaap, took to journalism (13:51) differences between journalism today and when he first came up forming his own name for himself (26:53) if he's ever considered leaving sports his legendary live sit-down interview with Bobby Knight in 2000 (37:10) his favorite piece he's ever worked on For more from Jeremy, you can follow him on Twitter and Instagram @jeremyschaap.If you want to support our show, simply give "The Ariel Helwani Show" a 5-star rating on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. It goes a long way!Theme music: "Frantic" by The Lovely Feathers

Hey everyone, it's Ariel Hawani. Welcome back to a brand new edition of The Helwani Show. It is Thursday, May 12, 2022. I hope you're doing well. Thank you very much to the Lovely Feathers for this great theme song. It is entitled Frantic. Can't wait for the reunion either later this year or early next year. I am so excited about today's guest, and I know I say that almost every single week, but man, this is a special one for me. His name is Jeremy Albert Schaap. He's an absolute legend in the world of sports journalism. He is the son of the late, great Dick Schaap, and I've been watching him on television for well over two decades. He, in my opinion, is one of the best to do what he does. He is a role model. He is an inspiration. He has been at ESPN for almost three decades, and he is just an incredible storyteller.

You may know him from E60, from Outside the Lines, from SportsCenter, from his various books that he's written, 11-time Emmy Award winner. He is prolific, and I have wanted to talk to him for quite some time, and I've wanted to talk to him for quite some time, and I've wanted to tell him a few things for quite some time. I had a chance to work with him a couple times at ESPN, and those were dreams come true. And I don't want to tell you why he means so much to me in my intro here. I want you to hear me tell him why he means so much to me. So this is a conversation with a journalist that I look up to immensely, a broadcaster that I admire immensely, and one that I've wanted to have for quite some time. It's a conversation about his

career, about his father, about the state of sports journalism, about some of his most memorable interviews and stories. It's a conversation that I enjoyed more than I can possibly describe. And it's one that I hope you enjoy as well. Without further ado, here's my conversation with the great Jeremy Schaap. This is a really big one for me, my friends. I can't even properly describe the honor it is for me to have Jeremy Schaap on this program. One of the last good, ethical, powerful, respected sports journalists left in North America, if you ask me. A man that I've looked up to for well over two decades. A man who has had, unbeknownst to him, a massive influence on my career. Not only him, but his late great father as well, the legendary Dick Schaap. And I will get into some other things that I want to say to him

because I've been waiting to do this for quite some time. But without further ado, here he is. You know him from E60, Outside the Lines, ESPN, multiple-time Emmy winner, multiple-time author. I mean, a true living legend, Jeremy Schaep. Thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. I can't tell you how flattered I am. And I can only say that you must be delusional and the checks in the mail, but no, it means so much to me. And I respect you so much, the work you've done. For lack of a better word, the brand that you have built, the credibility you have in the industry. I treasured those times we got to work together at ESPN, and I'm really honored to be here on the show. Thank you. I really appreciate that

coming from you, but this isn't about me. This is about you. So I do want to tell you about a couple of things as to why you and your family mean so much to me. And I know this isn't about me. This is about you. So I do want to tell you about a couple of things as to why you and your family mean so much to me. And I know this isn't your typical way to start an interview, but I do think it's important. First of all, your father is someone that I admired from afar. Obviously, I never had a chance to meet him so much. So I loved the sports reporters as a kid that I completely ripped it off later in life. And I called it the only one a hundred percent, but it is the, the genuine article. It's the real deal. It's the first of its kind. I did a show called the MMA beat play on words, you know, the beat that we covered, but also beat where it was for journalists sitting

around talking about mixed martial arts. I played the role of Dick Shapp one 10th, as good as he did the job. Um, and so he's sure much better than he would have played on that show. Sure. That is, although he was a great, you know, a big time fight fan. I'm sure much better than he would have played on that show, however. Sure. Although he was a great big-time fight fan, I know as well. That's true. So that meant a lot to try to play the role of Dick Schaap. And then I learned about you and followed your work and admired your work.

Late 90s, I believe, would see, oh, that's Dick Schaap's son. He's so composed. He's so young. What a great voice. It's just so impressionable. But I have to tell you something, Jeremy, and I don't know if I had a chance to tell you this the few times that we got to work together. The piece that you did on Bobby Fischer, which I know you have received a ton of accolades for, you won the award named after your father for outstanding writing for the great work that you did on that piece. When I was in college, I probably watched that piece,

and especially the final exchange between you and Bobby Fischer, over a hundred times. Get back to this guy. What's your first name? Jeremy. Jeremy Shaft. I hate to, you know,

rap people personally, but his father, many, many years ago, befriended me. Took me out to see, I don't remember what. Knicks games. Knicks games. You were 12.

Acted kind of like a father figure. And then later, like a typical Jewish snake, he had the most vicious things to say about me. I have to object. Okay. Did you read what he said about me in that article? I heard things that he said about me. Did you read the article where he said, I don't have a sane bone in my body?

Honestly, I'm not sure if I read it, but I know that he said it. And honestly, I don't know that you've done much here today really to disprove anything he said. You know, I've had moments where there's these big fighters who are mad at me in my face, or Dana White, you know, mad at me in my face or Dana White, an imposing figure in my face. And they've always asked me, how do you remain so calm? What are you thinking about? What are you feeling in that moment? And on my life, what I think about is you in that moment. I learned in that moment watching you how to be composed in a tense situation, how to stand your ground, how to own the room and not let someone walk over you.

So I just want to thank you for that. Even in preparation for this, I probably watched it another 10 times. And I would urge anyone who has not seen that piece called Finding Bobby Fisher, which I believe you did back in 2003, if memory serves me. Five. Five, excuse me. One of the finest pieces of journalism that I've ever seen. So I just wanted to say that to you off the top. I'm very flattered. I'm very grateful. That piece was something I still think about a lot. It's been a long time. It's been 17 years. But the way that you think about

it, it's kind of the way I think about it too. You know, when people ask me, what are the pieces that really matter to you? You know, when you've done thousands of them, you know, what stands out? And that piece for so many reasons, I think it resonates with other people, clearly with you, and it resonates with me. And it's interesting, right? Because Ariel, right? We talk about in journalism, it's not about you. It's not about the journalist or the reporter. It's about the subject. And I certainly grew up in the business, I think, believing that and adhering to it. And then at the end of the day, some of the pieces that matter the most, that really get to the heart of the matter, are the personal ones. And I don't think anybody can say that I made it about me. I think that Bobby Fischer did about me and my father in that situation.

But that is one of the ironies. One thing I've always wondered about that piece, it ends with you walking off after you have that great line. You're not sure if he had done anything on that day to disprove anything that your father had said about him, saying that he didn't have a sane bone in his body, which really bothered him. What happened afterwards? Did you run into him at all? It's such an amazing way to end the piece, but I was always curious. You're in Iceland, of all places. What happens afterwards? And that was really the beginning of the trip. So that was, I mean, the whole thing came together in just a strange way. He was freed from prison in Japan. And then he was, you know was granted this extraordinary gesture by the Icelandic government, making him a citizen. history where they said, we're going to grant you citizenship to enable him to get out of prison in

Japan, where he was on, he was imprisoned on a passport violation. And then after, and so I get there, you know, we find out about this, the producer, John Fish and I, that he'd been freed. So now he's going to Iceland, trying to figure out how long it's going to take for him to get to Iceland. And we want to be there when he gets to Iceland because we figure it might be the only opportunity to see him, to interview him. Maybe he'll have a press availability, as unlikely as that sounds. He had had them in the past. And so I called Glenn Jacobs, whom you know, who worked on MMA and at the time was running features with a couple of other people at ESPN. And I said, Glenn, this is the situation. Bobby Fisher is being released from prison. I think we got to be there if we're going to do

this story. And in an instant, he said, get on the next plane. And there aren't many places in the world in journalism, in American media, where they would say, get on the next plane. And there aren't many places in the world in journalism, in American media, where they would say, get on the next plane, get a crew, you and John go, meet the crew in Boston, fly. And then in that point, this is before Iceland became a popular destination for Americans for tourism. There was only one flight a day and it was out of Boston, not New York. And so I had to fly to Boston and it all happened in a couple of hours. And then we get to Iceland and the following morning, that night, Bobby Fisher lands and I'm at the airport. It's in the peace when he lands on a private jet and then he's whisked away. We have no opportunity to really make, you know, to speak, to ask him anything, anything like that.

And then the next morning, we're just kind of sitting around the hotel, like, what are we going to, you know, what are we going to do? Where are we, what do we do now? You know, thinking we're just going to build a piece without Bobby Fisher in it. And John Barr, my colleague at ESPN, your former colleague at ESPN, terrific reporter. He had also been interested in Bobby Fischer and he'd given me a number. Maybe he'd given it to John. I can't really remember John Fischer, the producer for a friend of Bobby's in Iceland. And he said, you know, call him.

Maybe he'll have some thoughts. So I call him and he said, we're having a press conference. Like, you're having a press conference? He's like, when are you having a press conference? He's like, when are you having a press conference? He's like, now. I'm like, now? Now I'm thinking like, where? He said, at the airport.

I'm like, oh my God, the airport, Keflavik, is like 45 minutes from downtown Reykjavik. And I'm like, we'll never make it. He said, no, no, at the downtown airport, the old downtown airport in Reykjavik. And so we were there. We got there before the press conference started. And so we were there, we got there before the press conference started and that's how it all happened. But then the press conference happens is like,

you know, we just gotten there 24 hours earlier. And then after that, we're like, what are we going to do? So we spent the next week in Iceland, maybe it was five days, whatever it was, you know, doing other reporting, finding, you know, other voices and talking to other people and trying to kind of construct the story, you know, around that. Um, and you know, we, I remember having breakfast or lunch with Sammy. That was Bobby's friend. He had been a police officer who was like his bodyguard and was still his friend. I believe he was like the, he was some kind of like ballroom dancing champion, uh, as well. Sammy, I think it's Paulson. Am I making, am I making it up? And, and at that point, you know, there was still interest

in trying to get Bobby for a sit down interview and, um, you know, they weren't going to do it. I was of two minds about it. You know, I, I think, you know, some people thought, well, you know, you're still over there, you know, and it was just a press conference. Try to sit him down. I was like, you know what? I don't know if there's really anything left to be said. But we tried, but it didn't happen. And then we were there for a few more days and we left. Did you ever talk to him afterwards? I know he's no longer around, but was there any interaction with him? No. Okay. Yeah, no, that was it, the press conference, which was interesting. Absolutely. And just so inspiring. And you can imagine many years later, I got to do Outside the Lines with you once. I got to do one E60 piece during my brief time at ESPN,

three years. It feels like a fever dream at this point. It happened so fast. And so to be sitting on that desk with you and the other correspondents, but like to hear you say my name and to just be in the same, it really felt like I'd want some sort of broadcasting fantasy camp, you know, prize or something like that. So it just all meant so much to me. And I just really wanted to say that to you up the top and really why I wanted to have you on the program so badly and appreciate you doing this. One of the great things about your father is that he is, you know, when people talk about him, when people talk about the stories, I've read them all, the respect that he had from the athletes, right? From the people he covered. And I've heard the stories about,

you know, Wilt and him hanging out and he's at his house and people being at your house and you're going to bed and you're coming out of your room to say goodnight. And there's, you know, the biggest stars in the world. I'm curious, did you adopt the same mentality? Because I feel like the relationship between journalist and subject, you know, it's changed a lot over the years and perhaps something like that would be frowned upon. Do you have those same relationships with athletes? I don't, I really don't. Um, you know, I mean, there's some guys I'm friendly with, but, uh, the way that my, my father, it was a different era and there were, you know, it was much, uh, more, um, typical for the journalist to be friendly, to have those kinds of relationships. And my father was

not unique in that respect. But I think it was, with him, it was to a greater degree. I mean, he had, you know, a lot of friends who were these athletes. And the whole nature, as you know, of the relationships, it was less adversarial and it was less confrontational. And, um, you know, he, he also had business relationships. You know, if you're going to say the people he was writing books with, with a lot of the most important athletes of the era, you know, he was writing books with Tom Seaver and with Joe Namath and with Jerry Kramer and with Frank Beard and with Jerry Kramer, and with Frank Beard, and with Bo Jackson. And not that there were lines crossed or that I think in any way his journalism when we reported it on those athletes outside of the book projects they were working on in any way was compromised, but it was a different relationship. And, and it's, you know, it's, it's not just the idea that it

has to be more adversarial or confrontational, but it's also, you know, now there's so many layers, you know, we don't have access the way that my father's generation had access. You know, I'm not really sure how it works in MMA. Um, but in the sports that I've covered, you know, it's just, you know, there are walls now of agents and managers and publicists, and it's just different. It's also different because, you know, the way that sports was approached in that era, and there were certainly serious issues. I mean, my father, you know, I think broke the story that, you know, Muhammad Ali had converted to Islam and had joined the Nation of Islam. So there are big, serious stories that transcended sports that they were covering. But kind of on the daily basis, you know, the kind of stuff that we do now, where all the sports issues, the off the field transgressions, the business of the sport, all of that stuff, there's much more focus on than there was in that era, you know, I would hang out with the Packers of the 60s, the Lombardi Packers, who my dad was close to. And Tom Seaver, as you were saying, would be at the house. Muhammad Ali would be at the house or Walt Frazier, Bill Bradley. I can't think of any big famous athletes who've been to my house. And the only one I can think of actually, whoever just called me to chat was Mike Tyson.

Really? Yeah. Now, I want to say, I remember where I was. I was up in a certain building in Bristol back in the days when we did like a daily outside the lines in the middle of the afternoon. And I remember I picked up the phone. It was Mike. Just wanted to say hi.

That's really the, now when my father died, I'll tell you of all the, you know, I'm not including his personal friends, but I got phone calls from a couple of guys. But in terms of just calling just to say hi, strangely enough, Mike Tyson's the only one that I can think of. And he just wanted to say hi.

There was nothing that he really wanted. That as I recall. Wow. Just one time. This was in a Nero when I was covering him a lot. Sure. And was it just that one time? Wow. That is amazing. You mentioned being around your father a lot. And I'm wondering, do you have any recollection of ever wanting to do anything else but what you are doing? Yes. I mean, before high school, when even more than most kids who like baseball or a certain sport, I was obsessed. Baseball was my life, which I think was the title of Frank Robinson's autobiography. And he certainly had more claim to that statement than I did.

But nevertheless, I felt that way. Like I was, I was obsessed. And unlike most people, again, I can pinpoint the moment, when I became a sports fan. I mean, it had all been, I think my father said, very casual until the night of October 18th, 1977, when I was eight years old and he took me to game six of the World Series at Yankee Stadium in the Bronx. And Reggie Jackson hit three home runs on three straight pitches. And it was like, you know, the cliche, the light bulb turning on. And it just, it's one of those things, right? It's so long ago now. I'm 52, right? So it's 44 years ago. And they're just like flashes of memory around it. But I do know how it changed everything

overnight for me. Like we came home, we probably got home around midnight, 1230, something like that. We were living in Manhattan. And I remember like now I was suddenly interested in all of those baseball books on my dad's shelf, in our living room shelf, and couldn't stop reading one in particular, Baseball's Best, a Hall of Fame gallery by Marty Appel, who had been the Yankees public relations boss. And then he would become a writer and he's a friend of mine now, Marty. And I always, you know, it bothered my father that my favorite writer was Marty Appel. But I became obsessed. And so I guess it's a long way of saying, you know, we all have dreams of being like a baseball player or something like that. But by the time I realized that that was the remotest of impossibilities, not possibilities, I was in on journalism.

It sounds like he brought you along a lot, whether he's working at NBC, he's on the road, whatnot. Why do you think he did that? One thing that I've always been afraid of was to bring my kids to mesh family and work, right? So on the road. So why do you think he brought you along so much? It just sounded like you were just hanging around. Well, it's what we're talking about, right? It's changed. Okay. You know, I have three kids and, you know, I don't,

the last couple of years have been impossible, right? Because of COVID. And so it's been different. But even before, it would just feel different now. First of all, it's not accepted the way it was then, right? Like if he showed up with me at Shea Stadium, Yankee Stadium, Madison Square Garden those days, it's like, sure. Dick's got his kid, you know, have the run of the place. It doesn't work like that anymore, I think for anybody, you know, as you were saying, it was a different world. It was more collaborative. You know, my father was as hard nosed as anybody, a very serious journalist. I don't think anyone could deny that. Uh, one of the best ever at what he did, if not the best. But, you know, when I was a kid, it was just different. Like under the Christmas tree, and we had a Christmas

tree, we were Christmas tree Jews. There were gifts, you know, from the North American Soccer League. I mean, they were, you know, they were gestures, you know, it wasn't anything fancy, but like an umbrella, or there was something from the Knicks or something from the, and even when I started in the business in the, you know, in the early nineties, it was more like that, you know? Um, you know, uh, and, um, so my dad took me everywhere. Uh, we went to a lot of stuff together and I spent my weekends really up at 30 rock when I was little, he was working at NBC. And then when I was 11, he moved to ABC. And I was a first class nuisance, Ariel. I mean, I was getting under everybody's feet. I was always at the office. I was using

the copy machines. I was running around. And I think frankly, it was mostly because the way he worked in his schedule, that was when he would see me. I had to tag along. He wasn't in a position to go do stuff with me. He worked every weekend. From the day I was born until the day he died, he worked every weekend. He was never off on the weekends. And my parents got divorced or separated when I was like eight or nine. And so when I see him was really at the office. Your children now, you have three, correct? I have three. Yeah. Do they want to do what you do? You know, it's not, so I have a 12 year old daughter, I have a nine year old son and I have

a six year old daughter. And, you know, I think they're just kind of wrapping their head around what I do. It's never been articulated quite like that. I think my son in particular thinks my job is cool. I'd like to take him around to the office. He's been up to ESPN maybe once. Of course, it's all pre-COVID. Can't bring in kids now. My older daughter has been a few times. And they think it's fun.

I guess like why wouldn't you think it's fun? It's not like a real job, Ariel. I'm not breaking rocks. Right. Um, and it's, uh, and that's what, you know, attracted me. I mean, the joke was, you know, I said, well, you know, if my father could do it, I figured anybody could, so I might as well give it a shot. But, um, what could be more fun? Right. You're talking about sports and you get to perform and you, you know, by being on TV, you get to write, you know, there is, you know, in my case anyway, a very small modicum of recognition, you know, so there are all the

things that like for a little kid would seem appealing. And I guess I just never outgrew that. Would you like for one of them to fall in your footsteps? Oh, you know what? I really do. And again, it's like my dad. I mean, there was never any pressure from him. There was no sense of like, you should do this or you shouldn't do that. It just was what I wanted. And I know it sounds like the kind of thing everybody would say, but really whatever makes them happy. If whatever they want to do, if it's going to make them happy, if they've got no interest in journalism, if they got no interest in sports, that's great too, as long as they're happy. And you know that.

Yeah, of course. You're a dad, but it would be, I'm sure it'd be fun to share that. I got to share things with my dad that we wouldn't have been able to share if we weren't in the same business. We hosted a radio show together for years and we went to all those events and we knew all the same people. And, you know, I could, you know, I could bother him every day, like, ah, you know, how should I tell this story? What should I say? You know, how do I approach this, um, moment in terms of my day or my career or my life? And when you're doing the same thing, you have a lot more opportunities for those kinds of interactions, right? I know the Sporting Life show very well.

I remember the final episode, October of 2020, you said, our two listeners are going to be very sad to know that this is our final. I was like, wow, I guess I'm one of the two because I loved it. And in fact, and I'm not trying to make you uncomfortable with all this praise, in the very early stages of the pandemic when there was nothing going on, I went on a massive sporting life binge. Whoa! It's true. I even told our mutual friend Troy this because things were so depressing and the storytelling – and it wasn't – any podcast you would listen to in March and April of 2020 was COVID related. And I just wanted to go somewhere else, right? And the storytelling and the guests.

So I was going back several years. Thankfully they had, you know, a long and robust archive. And so that's another thing I want to thank because I would go on walks when there was no one outside, you know, like the parks were closed and just listen to you

and just kind of be like, are we ever going to get back to this? The innocence of these stories and these games. So again, thank you for that. Why, you know, at the end of that last episode, you said that it would continue in digital form. That's what I was told. Yeah, where is it?

It's been almost two years. Where's the show? It's a very good question. I'm going to have to call Andy Tennant. You know, Andy. Yes. You know, he's in charge of that stuff. And, you know, they tell me it's coming uh so we'll uh you know it's a process right

ariel it's a big company and it's a process when do you think uh people stop recognizing you as dick's son because they're i don't think they have serious there's kids right now who watch you and probably don't know who your father that's right's right. But not the people who are, you know, older than that, you know, and that's great. You're okay with that. That's, I'm, well, I am, and it's not as if I have a choice. So, you know, but, but I, I, it doesn't look, you know, it, look, it takes a while to wrap your head around. Like you're walking into an industry in which your father is one of the all-time greats and a legend and beloved. It's a lot to live up to. There are always going to be comparisons. Most of them, frankly, are going to be ways in which being my father's son, and it's certainly about the access and the privilege and the entree, all of that, but it's also about having been able to learn the business at his elbow, right? At his side for so long. And I do think of all the opportunities I've gotten, you know, because Dick Schaap is my father and all the things I've learned, you know, how could I possibly begrudge

people for always thinking of him when they see me? That's, you know, now, and he's been dead now for 20 years, when that happens, I mean, and it happens a lot, it's great, right? It keeps my father alive to me in another way than all the other ways when people talk about him with me. I've always wondered this as well, and I hope I'm not putting you on the spot. I was sad to see the sports reporters go away. And I always wondered why you didn't host it. Well, it was one of those things. First of all, well, when my father died in 2001, I had just turned 32. And I think it would have been, and people said this to me at the time, like, why didn't you do it? And I'd been at ESPN for a few years at that point, but I'd only been on the air for five years.

I was young. And I think it would have been strange. I mean, first of all, John Saunders was a great choice. John Saunders did a tremendous job until, you know, his very unfortunate and premature death in um, in 2016, after having done the show for 15 years and, and John was clearly the right choice. Um, and so that was it, you know, so John did it and it was his job. And, um, and then after John died in 2016 and the show, um, the show was only on the air for a few months after that. Um, and, uh, and I don't know what kind of, you know, discussions there were about whether, you know, Mike Lupico who had been sitting in the chair from the beginning for almost 30 years was the

natural choice, obviously to be the host after that. And then the show went away, I think it was early 2017. So after John died, it went away fairly quickly after that. And that was that. And it was replaced by, in the schedule on Sunday mornings, a show that I was co-hosting with Bob Lee, the weekly edition of E60 that we used to do. And it would have been, you know, what we're talking about, you know, growing up in the business, being in the business with a father who has a certain stature, it would have been, I think it would have been tough for me. I think it would have been tough for me in 2001 to do that show and to, you know, already being in the shadow naturally, but also the the emotion of replacing my father who had died in that chair. I think the decision not to have me do it, and I don't know how it was made, but at whatever levels it was made and whatever calculations were made, and first and foremost among them, the fact that John would be a great

host and better than me at it, number one, but the other things about how it would affect me, those were the right decisions. And what about in 2017? Were there any talks of you? You know, again, no. I mean, it was Mike, you know, after John died, it was Mike and I thought that was the right call. You know, Mike, oh, excuse me for a second, Ariel, looks like we've got a leaf blower outside. Oh, it's all good. Hold on. Can you still hear me okay? Yeah, yeah, just fine. Okay. You know, the way it went, and again, it just happened so quickly with E60 becoming an hourly

show and the decision to cancel the Sports Reporters, which, you know, I thought was unfortunate. I loved the show. I grew up with the show. It went on the air when I was in college. I would spend countless Sunday mornings in the studio with my dad and the guys, and then eventually became a frequent or a fairly frequent panelist and substitute host. I love the sports reporters. And so I was certainly saddened by its demise. And at the same time, it's kind of awkward because our show replaced it. In your opinion, I know you've talked about this a little bit over the years, but currently right now, do you feel as, like I said, I feel like you're the last of a dying breed in terms of the way you conduct yourself, the way you report on stories. Has social media hurt sports journalism? Do you feel like it has affected it in the wrong way?

It's a good question. And I'm not, as you know, Ariel, I'm not, you know, a huge consumer compared to some people. I try not to live my life on social media. It's mostly cooking pictures, which I mostly, that's the extent of my participation. And it's not just about journalism. And since I'm not in the business of being an information guy, like say Adam or Jeff or Adrian, I don't have to be there. And there are certainly people I know who've chosen not to be there at all, for whom I have tremendous respect, like Tom Rinaldi. It's not just the way it affects journalism. I think it's the way it affects everything. I mean, look, it's a great tool. If you want to know what's going on, you've got to be following. You've got to have a Twitter feed that you follow, right? Or you've got to have your own Twitter account where you can follow accounts and know what's going on. I remember the first time it became a valuable tool for me was in 2009, covering the Tour de

France. And at the Tour de France, you know, if you don't speak French, it's very hard to follow along what's going on the race while you're on the road getting to the finish line each day. And I'm like, oh, there's this thing called Twitter. I can follow these people who follow the Tour de France. And I'm actually going to know what I'm talking about when I get to the finish line and Lance is finished first or second or third or whatever. And so that's when I'm like, okay, you need this. But in terms of living on it, and I just think it has a huge detrimental effect on mental health for everybody.

And I've talked about this with athletes. I mean, I remember talking about this a couple of years ago with Vince Carter, and I think Troy might've been producing that show. And, you know, he's talking about his young teammates, right? At halftime, looking at, you know, social media and seeing what people are saying about them and being affected by it, you know, being like, oh my God, and getting in their heads. And I just think that feedback loop is so, it's so dangerous. And I think it is dangerous for journalists because so often you are, you know, you should always care what people, you know, think about what you're doing because they're the audience, right? You're a reader.

But I think social media has made it so reactive instantaneously that it does affect the way that people write stories, the way that they present stories, the things that they say because there is a fear, frankly, of what people on Twitter are going to say. Have you ever considered leaving sports? I was technically out of sports very early in my career. I was working at a local news station in New York and the job was not a sports job. I was basically mostly a cameraman covering breaking news in New York City. At New York One. At New York One. Right. And so it was right when it went on the air in 1992. At that point, I said, you know what?

I'm not sure I want to do the sports thing. I think I want to do news and I'm going to have a great opportunity to start at this station and cover news in New York. And it was great education, but I kept kind of gravitating back to the sports stuff and covering sports stuff while I was covering news. And so I'd spend the first part of the night covering breaking news and going to political events. And frankly, it was a lot of crime scenes, political events, a lot of what you see on local news, on TV. And then at the end of the night, if nothing else like that was going on, I'd go to their nine pro teams at that time in the city.

And I'd go to the clubhouses and locker rooms and do interviews, and then I'd do some sports stories. And then over the years, you know, I've thought about like, you know, mixing in some non-sports here, maybe write a non-sports book, doing some more non-sports type reporting maybe, you know, for our partners at ABC, but it's, you know, I've always come back to sports. I've never really left, I should say. Right. Obviously, one of your first big exclusive breaks, whatever you want to call it, was the Bob Knight interview two decades ago. I've always wondered about two things with this interview. He gets fired. He essentially, I believe he had three choices as to who would do the interview. He picks you, right?

And this is a crazy story. I've heard you tell the story that they chartered a private jet for you. You were in Madison, Wisconsin. You've done some research here, Ariel. I am impressed. Yes. Not that I would expect anything less. I appreciate it.

They chartered the plane for you and you get this big exclusive. People were covering the interview. News outlets were covering the interview. It was such a big deal. And he insisted on it being live, which was a fascinating decision because he's such a firecracker of a personality. But one thing I've always wondered, and again, this is very inside and maybe only people like me would care about this sort of thing. In the midst of the interview, which at times gets a little bit tense and we'll get to one particular moment, yes, where he's telling you to stop, interrupting him and whatnot.

You have to cut to commercial. That's right. You have to throw to a commercial break. And it's not often when you're doing an E60 piece, you're sitting down with someone, it goes for two hours. What is that commercial break like when you're sitting in front of the guy and now you're off air and he has two minutes to maybe tell you what's really on the phone? All I remember about the break, and honestly, i can't remember if the break came i think it came after the confrontation

or before i don't remember the confrontation but it was building it was building yes we watched the whole thing so it was all yeah you're right now i remember it was kind of building so so we go to break i throw it to break break. And I remember Bob starts, you know, looping the mic out from under his shirt. And so the truck is screaming. I think it was David Brofsky screamed my ear. Where's he going? Where's he go? They thought he was leaving, that he was done. Like he was done with all of this crap. He wasn't going to take any more questions, but he was just going to the bathroom. And so, so, so I knew, but they didn't. So I think I burst an eardrum, um, and he made it back in time. But you know, the one thing, well, there were a lot of things, if you were watching on TV,

you would not have been able to, uh, uh, to know about the circumstance. But as I recall, it was, it was just very, we're in this like, not a big room. It wasn't like a big room and there are curtains all around it now. And so, you know, so you can't see the cameras and all that. And they're kind of behind the curtains. And as I recall, Bob's wife was behind one of these curtains and I could kind of hear her in the background. Isaiah Thomas was there and Digger was sitting off to the side. You know, Digger had really brokered the whole thing, you know, because of Digger's relationship with Bob. And he was sitting there too.

And it was just, it was surreal, Ariel. You know, I was 31. I just turned 31. I'd been on the air for four years at ESPN and, um, and it was a big freaking deal, you know? And I knew it was a big deal, right? Like I knew going into this, like, you know, this is gonna, you know, this is going to, um, uh, one way or the other, you know, establish, uh, who you are in the business, at least for a while, right? Like either you're going to, you're going to nail it and it will elevate you,

or it's going to be a disaster. And you might as well, you know, go to law school. And so it was a lot of pressure to be under. And I got a lot of good advice from a lot of people that I trusted about how to handle the interview, how to handle the pressure. And I just had to try to find a place where I could kind of relax and just focus on the questions. I felt comfortable. I think I did, to a pretty good degree, feel comfortable doing this interview with Bob Knight. Even though I was young, I knew him. I knew the story. I knew the issues. I didn't know as well as Bob. You're always at a disadvantage with the subject who's lived it. But I knew what questions had to be asked, right? And I knew what follow-ups you had to ask. But the live component makes everything different. It's just a different, you know, it's a different animal and it's not something we deal with. You've dealt with it, you know, I've dealt with it, but the big live sit down with, you know, he was the subject of the moment, right? He was the guy that, you know, everybody wanted to talk to and he has picked me to do it, you know, uh yeah i guess i should be grateful for and uh and uh

yeah i remember uh surviving no greater rush than that big live interview and everyone's watching and everyone's like people again people are covering your interview this day and age you get a big interview like that unfortunately you jump on twitter you see what people are saying about it back then there was no Twitter. I would have been hiding under a rock. I've said this before. If Twitter had existed at that time, I probably would not have survived. I mean, the-

You nailed it. It would be too much. You did nail it, and you would have been showered with praise. But I'm wondering, because there was no Twitter, what did you feel about it? Like, how did you feel? You walk away from that interview? Do you remember thinking, I don't know if I've ever walked away from an interview thinking, I actually have only walked away with regret and upset at myself. You missed this, you missed that. Always. I have never hit

that home run. I never have. I am not nearly as demanding of myself as you are, clearly, Ariel. You felt good about yourself. I felt good. I felt good. I felt good. And I felt good, I mean, not in a vacuum. It's not as if I knew, but I felt good because my bosses told me it was good. And my friends.

And my dad. What did your dad say to you about it? You know, I'm trying to remember exactly what he said. So I'll tell you the truth, Ariel. I don't remember the specifics. I know that it was complimentary. What I remember, and people, to the extent that people remember this at all, what they remember is the parting shot he did that week, which was about it. Wow. Which was great.

Wow. Which was really flattering. And the gist of it was, and he was being it, which was great. And, uh, which was really flattering and the gist of it was, and he was being, um, generous, but he said, he said that, uh, a guy stopped him on the street or maybe it was a cab driver and said, Hey, night was wrong. Your kid's already better than you. And, and he, and he said, I agree something like that. And he did it better than I could meeting me. And, you know, because of his relationship with Bob, he thought, I agree, something like that. And he did it better than I could, meaning me. And, you know, because of his relationship with Bob, he thought. And that's what I remember.

But I remember, you know, Norby Williamson was there and David Brofsky was there. And it was, I remember, you know, that kind of rush. I mean, it must be, you know, what, you know, an athlete feels like in that kind of moment. I remember, I'm a food guy, Ariel, as you know. I remember not being hungry for like a good 36 hours, which is not like me. So I guess there was so much adrenaline, it killed my natural hunger. That moment where he breaks the fourth wall and he takes a beat and he looks at you. Yes. And he says, you've interrupted my answers with your questions. And then I've tried to get back. So let me finish this. You got a long way to go to be as good as your dad. You better keep that in mind. I mean, I will never forget that. That hit me in the heart.

I felt like, do you remember how it felt for you? Because you took it. You said, I think your response was, I appreciate it. That was all I said. Yeah. How did you feel internally when he said that? Again, I'm trying to remember, you know, it would be different, right? If it were tape and I knew that like, you know, um, there's a moment to recover or there's a moment to think about it or, but you're on live TV and I'm, you know, I, I'm, I'm scared shitless anyway. You know, this is a big moment. And then to have that happen, I'm just trying, I'm thinking like, okay, let's keep going with the questions. And, you know, in that moment, it never, you know, people would say to me, and they certainly said at

the time, uh, you know, I would, uh, I would have leaned over and slugged them. Or I would have said, well, you got a long way to go to be as good as Dean Smith or something like that. And I think that would have been exactly the wrong thing. Obviously, the hitting would have been wrong. But any kind of tit for tat, I think in that moment, would have would be wrong now, right? Because now I'm 52. And now, you know, I'm not a kid next to, you know, some legend. You know, I'm an adult next to whoever it might be. And so, you know, I didn't call him coach. You know, it was Bob. I asked him the tough questions. I think everybody agrees. But I did not want to in any way make it personal or continue to have it be personal, which is what, you know, he was doing. And one last thing on this after, I'm always curious about the, you know, the goodbye, was it okay? The goodbye or did he tell you? No, it was not okay. It wasn't. Now what I do remember pretty vividly. So it's, it's over now. I think I've thrown it back to Bob Lee in Bristol. And, and I'm thinking like, you know, like I'm alive in the chair. And Bob gets up before I get up out of the chair. And he has to walk past me, as I recall, to get out of the room. So he kind of comes over my right shoulder. I think camera was over the left shoulder.

And he kind of like, I'm trying to like pat him like, thanks. Or, you know, good job. Thanks, whatever. And he's like, good job. Thanks, whatever. And he's like, you've got a lot to learn. And he turns and walks around, walks away. That was it. That is amazing. That was it.

Incredible. This is so much fun. You have a few more minutes? Oh, I got plenty. We'll talk about my favorite subject. Okay, yourself. It's great. You have done phenomenal reporting

on the World Cup coming up, Qatar, all the workers and their treatment. I mean, just incredible stuff. A lot of it is online. Anyone can watch it. I have a real moral dilemma that I want to ask you about. How do I handle this, Jeremy? Because I'm a proud Canadian. My soccer team is what you compete for the first time that I can, it was only 1986. Yes, but I was four years old. I have no recollection of this. And I never thought in my lifetime that I would see the Canadian men's national soccer team at the World Cup. I always had to adopt another team, right? And not only are they there to take part, like they are a force. They were top of the table, CONCACAF. Like I think that they

can actually, you know, maybe win the group. How do I, how do I, I have a real dilemma here because there's a part of me that if Canada wasn't involved, knowing what I know about the World Cup and how this whole thing has come about due to your reporting, I was going to probably, you know, boycott this whole thing. And it would have been easy to do so because it's in November. It's in a weird time. How should I feel about what's happening in November? Wow. You know, that I haven't been asked and I haven't really considered, you know. Look, I think I'm not going to tell you, Ariel, you can't watch the World Cup and you can't watch Team Canada. And look, the World Cup is the biggest event in the world. Literally, you know, I think I've said

the biggest sports event, but it's just the biggest event. There's no event that's bigger than the World Cup, right? The most people are watching. Most people are invested emotionally. All the teams, all the drama. It's the world's most popular sport. The audiences for the FIFA Men's World Cup are just insane.

You know, I've seen it. I've been to the tournament in France, in Brazil, in South Africa. I would say you are someone who cares deeply about these issues. You are someone who's cognizant of these issues. You are someone who's in a position to raise awareness about these issues. And I think that's something you can do in your position, you know, while you still watch the games which are going to take place. has been brought to the situation by the fact that the World Cup is taking place in Qatar has led to change. Not as much change as there should be. Not as much change as we hope might still be affected before the World Cup takes place six months from now. But as someone with a huge following and a huge platform, you can continue to raise awareness about these issues. And that's what's

really important. Okay. Fair enough. I am very excited though. I just wish it was not under these circumstances. Am I correct in stating you attended the 1976 Summer Olympic Games in Montreal? No, I did not. I have very vivid memories of them. My parents were there. Your parents were there. Okay. And I remember the stuff they brought me back, including a bunch of Olympic medals, which were just, you know, Olympic pins, which were just becoming popular. And I remember watching Bruce Jenner at the time, Caitlyn Jenner. I remember watching Dwight Stones. I remember watching- Nadia, Nadia Comaneci. Uh, it was, yeah. And that was really

my, my Olympic moment. First one as a kid. Um, has there been at this point? And I feel like the answer is no, an event that you haven't covered that you still would like to, like, is there a bucket list event that's still left on there? Because I feel like there isn't, you know, what have I, you know, in terms I've been to most of the big things, right. You know, I, I have not been to an Indy 500. Okay. And I'm not a big Indy car guy. Don't get me wrong. I've been to the time trials, but I haven't actually been to the race, but that's, you know, one of the iconic things, but I've gotten to cover so many things, you know, Ariel, so many things, winter and summer Olympics, uh, Euros and, and world cups and tour de France's. And I've, uh, it's, it's, I've been very fortunate. Is there one that stands above the rest,

like your favorite one to cover? You know, I've loved some of the Olympic experiences that I've had. I was more enthusiastic about the games before I became more cynical about the International Olympic Committee. And, you know, some of the decisions that it's made over the years don't sit well with me or with many other people. But I remember the first Olympics I attended in Albertville in 1992 and the thrill of that. And my father was an Olympic historian. It was near and dear to his heart. You know, he wrote at least a few books about the Olympics and Olympians. So the Olympics have been big. The Tour de France is a great experience when I was covering it in terms of just the opportunity to drive around France for a couple of weeks, seeing all these places you wouldn't necessarily see otherwise, small towns, small villages, the event. I try to describe it to people. It's like, it's like the Superbowl 20 consecutive days, you know, in 20 different locations, setting up a new day, three weeks in a row. And it's, um, it's fun. And when Lance was

in it, you know, it was a big, big deal here in the U. And we cared a lot about it in ways that we don't care about it otherwise. The Euros have been great. Last year, I went to Wimbledon. It's only the second Wimbledon I covered, which is great in the US Open. I mean, it's been a lot of fun. I've never covered a Masters either. I've been to the Masters, but I didn't cover the Masters. I'm not sure they're going to invite me back though. So the one time I was there a few years ago, I was asked to speak to a small group and I had not been told that I was expected to speak. And they said, well, just get up and talk for a few minutes about the master's, say whatever you want to say. And the only thing that occurred could have occurred to me was telling the audience that my sister, Rosie had been conceived at the 1970 masters. So I don't know if I'm getting to go back, which is true. I wasn't just making that up. You can do the math. She was born January 13th, 1971. And so there've been so many

great ones, so many fun ones. Just a couple more left. Have you ever been close to leaving ESPN? You know, we mentioned a lot of names here. None of them are still with the company. You know, you've lasted a very long time. Including Bob Knight. Including Bob Knight. That's right. Who would become my colleague at ESPN for a number of years. You know, I haven't. I haven't. I've been working at ESPN for 29 years, Ariel. Wow.

And I always say this. I mean, the things I've gotten to do, the stories I've gotten to cover, the places I've gotten to travel to, the people I've been able to work with, such as yourself and Troy. If I could have picked one place in the world, like with hindsight or foresight or whatever you want to call it in 1993, this is where you're going to work, you know, for the next 30 years and hopefully beyond for me, um, knowing everything now that I've been able to do and, and, um, and also ESPN stature, uh, I would have picked ESPN and, uh, I I'm just, I'm just very lucky that they've, uh, uh, you know, they haven't gotten around to, uh, figuring out that they're done with me. So, you know, it's been great. Are you able to watch your old stuff? I find pain in watching my old stuff. I find a lot of mistakes. It's hard. I'm not saying that it's something that you would enjoy doing. You don't

sit at home and just watch your highlight reel, but are you someone who's able to watch and enjoy your earlier work? Yeah, it depends. I mean, there aren't a lot of things. I don't have tapes of most of my pieces. Everything exists. You can pretty much find everything if you need to, but I don't have like a big library of it. There are a lot of pieces that I could find online. I can't say that I, I, um, listen to a lot of it or watch a lot of it. It's been a long time, but there's some things when I flipping channels and I see a certain show that I did, uh, that I might watch for a few minutes that I like where I'm like, okay, my voice isn't super annoying to me in this one. Like I track that one well. Um, and if they're just subjects that I still, uh, am fond of, like did a show about,

um, Drew Bledsoe a few years ago, which I really enjoyed. I think that's a pretty good one. So if I see that, you know, I'll watch it. Did one about Bobby Hurley a few years ago, which is also one of my favorites. Uh, if I see that I might watch a few years ago, which is also one of my favorites. If I see that, I might watch a few minutes, but I'm not necessarily calling it up. The Buster Douglas documentary that we did a few years ago, 42 to 1, I really liked that show. I'll watch that. But I know everybody says they don't, but not much, no. Okay. Do you have a favorite piece? Yeah, I think it's probably the – well, look, I think the piece that in some ways means the most to me on a personal level is the piece that we did about Bobby Fisher.

It still resonates. Even in the moment, I kind of remember like that was different, right? You're not going to get many stories, just like you're not going to get many opportunities to do interviews like the Bobby Knight interview in your career. You're not going to find many stories like this most proud of are still the stories that we did around FIFA and Qatar in 2014 and 2015, the Qatar piece, and the FIFA documentary the following year, which kind of told the story of FIFA in the Sepp Blatter era. Not a pretty story. And I think those were really well-conceived and well-executed and certainly very well-produced by my colleagues, B.N. Gim and Mike Johns. And I think they were important stories. And that's what you want to do. You want to tell important stories and you want people to see them. And, uh, you know, that's what happens on ESPN. People see them, uh, fortunately, and you can, uh, you can try to make a difference. Last one. Uh, you're still a very young man,

so I'm not trying to push you out, but do you, do you have an end date insight? Like, do you, do you just want to go until you're God willing 120 or I definitely, I don't know, 120, but I've never, you know, I hear people talk, look, my good friend or my closest friends, you know, Bob Lee, he retired a couple of years ago at 64. And Bob would be the first to tell you, he's loving it. He is, okay. He's loving it. And I'm still a long way off from 64. Maybe I'll feel that way when I'm 64, but I'm 52. Very long way off, I should say to Bob. I hope I'll send this to him so he knows that I'm emphasizing. My dad, when he died, he was 67, but he was still working as hard as he had ever worked.

And work was fundamental to him. Even in a business full of workaholics, he was kind of like, oh yeah, that guy. And I'm not saying that's great or it's necessarily how you want to live your life. And I'm not wired quite like him in that respect, but to me, it still doesn't feel like work. It's still a pleasure. And if they're going to afford me the opportunities to keep doing this kind of work, yeah, I think I want to keep doing it. And you look around the industry and that's not always the story. Bob's a very good example. But, you know, you look at, you know, the people to me who are, you know, the legends, the people I grew up, you know, admiring in the business, you know, the people to me who are, you know, the legends, the people I grew up, you know,

admiring in the business, you know, they kept working. They kept working, you know, whether it's, you know, Ted Koppel got out a little bit, but he's still working. So Ted Koppel hasn't got out. He's doing important work, you know, on CBS Sunday morning, he left Nightline, you know, 16, 17 years ago. Mike Wallace was doing 60 Minutes up until his late 80s. Maybe I'll tell you this story. So I knew Mike Wallace a little bit, right? I'd met him a few times. People had made introductions and my grandfather, my mother's father had produced a show that Mike Wallace hosted in the 1950s. Wow. And so he was one time close with my grandparents, my mother's parents. And so, you know, what I'd see him, you know, the very rare occasions when's parents. And so, you know, what I'd see him,

you know, the very rare occasions when I got to meet him, you know, he, we talked about my grandparents and I remember this is years ago, obviously, because Mike Wallace, uh, is, has not been with us for a number of years, but I saw him at an airport. It was Newark and, um, and it was a deserted terminal fairly late at night. We must've both been taking red eyes. And I remember he was flying to Beijing to interview the Chinese premier. I can't remember at the time what year it was, who the premier was. And he's by himself and he's in his eighties and he's looking like, you know, he's had a long day and he's about to get on like a 12 hour flight. And, and I went up to say hello and

reminded him, you know, who, you know, my grandparents, you know, were, you know, I said, Lester Gottlieb's grandson. And he said, oh, and how's your grandmother, Henrietta? And I said, uh, well, you know, uh, she died a number of years ago, Mike. Um, and he said, oh, you know, well, I'll be with them soon. And of course I say like, no, Mike, you look great. You're getting, you're getting on a plane to fly to China. What are you talking about? Of course I walked away a minute later and I said, oh, what I should have said was, well,

please say hi for me. But that's always what, you know, occurs to you later. And I'm just thinking, look at what he's doing. Look at how he's working. And I look at Ted Koppel who's really, uh know, and I've only interviewed Koppel once, but we've communicated a few times. My hero, like, you know, my dad worked at ABC and Koppel was just so great at everything he did. And, you know, and Ted Koppel's got to be, I don't want to, probably late seventies at this point, I would say, if not. And he's still doing great work. So I don't know. I'm not thinking about retirement yet. Maybe someone has got my

retirement in mind, but I don't. Well, that is great news. I cannot thank you enough for this. A massive, massive thrill and honor for me. I could have peppered you with questions for hours here, but we'll leave it at that. And honestly, no regrets about my time at ESPN. Obviously, the initial goal was to last a little longer, but it all worked out for the best. And when people ask me about my highlights there, there are three that I mentioned. None of them have to do with MMA, to be

honest. One was getting to live out my dream of being an NBA sideline reporter for a few games. That was cool. And the other two are because of you, getting to be on the OTL set and getting to do the E60 piece because of who you are and what you have meant to people like me and inspiration and role model. So thank you for everything that you've done. Thank you for that Bobby Fisher piece that really shaped the way I tried to conduct myself in those tense moments. And congratulations on all that you have accomplished. And I can't wait for,

you know, the next 30 or so years of work that you're going to produce. It's really a joy to be a fan of yours and to watch your work. And you don't have a bigger fan than me, honestly. So thank you so much for this. You're a good man, Ariel. And I can't thank you enough for all those kind words. How great was that? Wow. I enjoyed every second of that. I honestly could have gone three hours just talking about sports journalism and TV and media and all that stuff. A lovely, lovely man who is as nice, if not nicer, than he appears on camera. Truly a kind soul, truly a mensch. And I will always cherish the few opportunities that we had to work together, in particular, when I got to be on the set of Outside the Lines, I believe it was back in February of 2020, right before the pandemic. It was surreal, absolutely surreal for me to be sitting up there

with someone like him, who I've watched on TV for so many years. And I remember that Bob Knight interview. I've watched the Bobby Fisher piece a hundred times in particular when I was younger, just blown away by his abilities as a writer, as a host, as a storyteller. That was a lot of fun. And again, I don't know if you could possibly enjoy it as much as I did, but I hope you did as well. And I want to thank him sincerely for not only coming on the show, but all his great work over the years. And I can't wait to see what he does next. He is, you know, he, in my opinion, he is not Dick's son anymore. He is Jeremy Schaap. And he's one of the last few great sports journalists left in North America, if you ask me. How I feel about Stephen Brunn in Canada

is the exact same way I feel about Jeremy Schaap here in the United States. Thanks to all of you for watching, for listening. If you want to watch this interview, it's up on our YouTube channel, youtube.com slash Ariel Hawani is where you can check it out. We have all our interviews up there. Appreciate your support there as well. Please subscribe there. If you can, please like, subscribe, follow, comment, do all the things that you do over here in the podcast world. It means more than you can possibly know. Thank you to the lovely Feathers for allowing us to use their theme song called Frantic.

Appreciate them very much. Thanks to the production team. And once again, thank you to Jeremy Schaap for the time. Have a great weekend. Hope you enjoyed it. I'll talk to you next week. Take care. Thank you.