The Ariel Helwani Show - Mardy Fish

Episode Date: October 14, 2021

One of the best American tennis players of the last 20 years joins Ariel for a candid conversation about the Netflix documentary, "Untold: Breaking Point," which chronicles Fish's battles with mental health, which unexpectedly led Fish to pull out of an important 2012 U.S. Open match against Roger Federer. Fish tells Ariel about his toughest days, how he pulled himself out of the darkness, the importance of family and friends during tough times, why he doesn't judge anybody anymore, why more male athletes need to speak out on mental health issues, and so much more.Once ranking in the top 10 worldwide, Fish's career highlights include quarter finals appearances in the 2007 Australian Open, 2008 U.S. Open, and 2011 Wimbledon Championships, as well as a silver medal at the 2004 Summer Olympics. Fish now serves as the captain of America's Davis Cup team, appears in celebrity golf tournaments and even practices mixed martial arts.You can follow Mardy on Twitter @mardyfish, visit his web site mardytennis.com, and check out "Untold: Breaking Point" on Netflix to learn more about him.For more episodes of The Ariel Helwani Show, please follow the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your shows. To get more from Ariel, subscribe to his YouTube channel, read his writing on Substack, watch his work for BT Sport and follow The MMA Hour or The Ringer MMA Show.Theme music: "Frantic" by The Lovely Feathers

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Area Helwani Show. Hope you're doing well on this Thursday, October 14th, 2021. We've got a really fun one for all of you today. A very interesting conversation, at least in my opinion, with a man named Marty Fish. Before I tell you about Marty Fish, I want to thank you all for your continued support of this program. Four interviews now in the books. I'm enjoying it immensely. As I was telling our team earlier, I get a lot of nachas when I do these shows, which means a lot of internal pride and joy because this is just my little baby and these are conversations that I've wanted to have for quite some time. And I'm really excited that we are now rolling and getting into it on a weekly basis.

Like I said, every Thursday a new one will come out. Thank you very much to the Lovely Feathers for our intro and outro music. This song is Frantic and I appreciate them very, very much. And so without further ado, let me tell you about today's guest. His name is Marty Fish and he at one time was one of the 10 best tennis players on the planet around 10 years ago. At one time, he was the best American-born tennis player in the world, and he's a guy who grew up with Andy Roddick, who came through that era, who had a lot of success in the world of tennis, had some ups and downs,

but at one point around 10 or so years ago, 2012 to be exact, he was doing very well and got all the way to the fourth round of the U.S. Open to play a guy named Roger Federer, and then his life came crashing down. He had a really bad anxiety attack and was diagnosed with anxiety disorder, had a severe, severe battle with mental health, and he continues to battle it as we speak. And just recently, he came out with a documentary, which he was the subject of, called Untold Breaking Point. It's on Netflix. And it's an incredible look at his life, about everything he's had to overcome about where he's currently at about that moment in 2012 prior to the roger federer match which he had to pull out of on the day of the match due to his battles

with anxiety just a really interesting guy a very open and honest individual we need more people like marty fish who speak about these things it's obviously a topic that really means a lot to me he happens to be an MMA fan as well, which is really cool. And that's how I met him originally. And I'm just so excited to share this conversation about a very successful human being who obviously hit rock bottom,

who battled something, was open about something that wasn't very common to talk about around a decade ago and now is a lot more common and I think is an inspiration to a lot of people who are battling mental health issues on a daily basis. So without further ado, here's my conversation with the silver medalist from the 2004 Olympic Games, at one time, like I

said, one of the best tennis players in the world and the current captain of the U.S. Davis Cup team, the one and only Marty Fish. Enjoy. In fact, in your Twitter bio, it says amateur mixed martial artist. Have you actually fought before? I mean, it's kind of half a joke, half I'm training for to get towards an amateur fight really you know like hand-picked you know on on our own on our own uh merit but but yeah i i want to eventually and i'm i'm i'm probably i'm 39 almost 40 the end of this year um so i'm thinking like i't know, something earlier than 42 years old, maybe like, cause I just sort of started training and practicing mixed martial arts. And like, I've always like, just like eight months or so now. And, and so I've always wanted to learn the craft and I've,

I've, I love the strategies. And as we get into the fixed martial arts talk right away, I love the conflicting styles and a jujitsu against a Muay Thai or a boxer against a wrestler. I just I love the craft and I've wanted to learn it for a long time. And I was out here in L.A. and I was just sort of looking through and I cold called a couple spots out here and boxing one. And, you know, I wanted to do some fitness as well and learn, you know, and learn how to defend myself maybe. And and one guy and I just got really lucky, you know, things just sort of fall into place. I got really lucky with a guy who used to fight not in the UFC or anything, but he was he was a good professional fighter. And and he's my coach. And so, like, I hire him.

He comes probably three, four times a week on the other days. I practice on my uh, we're just getting into the jujitsu and grappling stuff now, um, which, uh, which, uh, he, he's, um, he was a Muay Thai fighter, so Muay Thai kickboxing sort of stuff. So that's how we started. Um, so I, I sort of follow along like the Donald Cerrone's and the, you know, like sort of try to try and study those types of fighters. So yeah, I do, I do in a long winded answer. I do want to fight. I do want to like figure out what it feels like or learn what it feels like to get hit for real. And I'm excited to do it. I just, I got a lot to learn. Right. Wow. Okay.

So you might be the first amateur MMA fighter slash celebrity golfer, right? Cause you're killing it on that, on that front as well. Golf, golf and tennis, you know, the country club, Bo Jackson, maybe my, my title. I don't know. Like I grew up playing tennis and golf. That was in baseball, but mostly tennis and golf. Both of them have become, have come really natural to me my whole life. I don't play a lot of golf at all, but mostly tennis and golf. Both of them have become, have come really natural to me my whole life. I don't play a lot of golf at all, but, but when I do, I drink Dos Equis. No,

when I do, I, I play these, these, these celebrity golf terms. So they're super, super fun, made some awesome relationships and friendships over the years. Actually, one a couple of years ago with Canelo Alvarez, because I'm a big boxing fan as well. And Canelo and I are really good friends now. He's a sweetheart of a guy outside the ring or non-promoting his fights now. And so he and I play a lot of golf together and stuff. So I learned from all those guys. Wow. Must be nice to just drop. Canelo and I, sweetheart of a guy we play golf together i didn't know you roll that deep in the fight world so much respect uh and i'll ask

you a little bit more about fighting in a bit because i am curious you know like you kind of popped up on my twitter feed i was like marty fish liking you know my mma tweets i wasn't really expecting this because you know tennis country club i slid into the dms i mean i slid into your dms yes and yes you did you did i like to watch i've been watching for a long time the ufc for a long time the guys that um um i i guess i'm name dropping a lot the guys that uh that own it um the guys at wme patrick white soul and and patrick patrick and i are really good friends as well we belong to the same country club here in LA. Okay.

We play a lot of golf together. So like, I kind of got into it through him. He sat me down. We were actually at the club one night and he sat me down. He goes, Fishy, come down here and watch this fight with me. And it was McGregor, Diaz, I want to say one. And that was the first fight that I ever saw. Wow. Okay. So you're relatively new. Yeah. Yeah. I sat there with him and, um, yeah, a few years,

not like, you know, it wasn't, I don't know, maybe five, six years ago, something like that. And, um, it was before they, um, yeah, before WME bought the UFC. Um, but I knew Patrick was a huge UFC fan. Um. So I wasn't surprised when they were going through the process of buying that company. And now you're breaking down Mackenzie Dern, Marina Rodriguez. You've come a long way. Okay. So I'm going to ask you a little bit more about that later on, but I want to ask you about yourself, your career and the documentary. The documentary is fantastic and it really resonated with me and I know a lot of others. In fact, on Sunday was World Mental Health Day. So what better time than now to talk to you about this? You told the LA Times shortly after the doc was released that you hadn't watched

it yet. And I think that was around a month or so ago. Have you watched it now at this point? Candidly, I haven't. I've started it've, um, I've started it and gotten through like a minute and a half, like 90 seconds, like seven times. And, and, um, and it's just, it's a really difficult time in my life to relive that sort of 2012, 2013, um, uh, sort of time. And, and, and I'm just afraid of those memories. Um, and, you know, I look, I I've gotten, um, uh, as we talk about like Twitter and direct messages, I've gotten not hundreds, Ariel, thousands, thousands of DMS from people. And, and, and just that like are saying the same thing and I can just sort of scroll through it and it just keeps going and going and going. And I've, I've tried to write

everyone back, you know, you know, thank you for watching. And I, you know, and I'm, I'm sorry, you're feeling that way sort of thing. And I hope it helps, um, kind of thing with the doc, but, um, but the, the response has been incredible. Um, it's been, um, it's been overwhelming. I don't know what to say when friends text and say, Hey, I'm really proud of you for coming out with this. I'm proud of you for, I'm just proud to be your friend kind of thing. And, and I, I don't know what to say on the second part, because again, like I still haven't gotten myself to watch it. So I don't know. I mean, I know that I want to.

I know that I need to. And maybe it'll help me as well. But it's always something that when I've been able to talk about it and be open about it, it's selfishly helped me. And so I've been fairly open since 2000, probably 2015, you know, really open about what I struggled with, why and how I struggled with it and how I, how I beat it and deal with it on a daily basis. Your story is remarkable because you come up as, of this era of American tennis players on the heels of a great era with the likes of And you take a break and you reinvent your body. I'm just trying to give people the Coles Notes version in case they, and I don't want you to kind of go through the entire documentary. But it really culminates with this 2012 match against Roger Federer where you have to pull out due to mental health issues. At the time, we don't know it's due to mental health issues and the extreme anxiety that you were dealing with. And it's amazing because now we're starting to see a lot more of that in society and in sports in particular, in tennis and gymnastics and basketball. To come out with this now feels very apropos. And I'm

wondering, was this your idea or did the production team reach out to you and said, we want to do a documentary? Like, were you a part of the production or were you just a subject in this film? I was. I was a big part of it, but we filmed it in 2018. Wow. It was supposed to come out, um, 2020, uh, COVID changed, uh, some things or, you know, sort of just the, the timing of how they, you could say they had to finish all five of those, uh, of those doc documentaries in that, in that series. Um, and I don't think they finished them in time. And I think that's probably why they pushed it. You know,

I can imagine it's pretty difficult to, you know, find all that footage and everything from all five of those docs, which are the others are phenomenal as well. And I love the coal miners daughter. One was pretty cool too, to, to sort of see that. Cause you've obviously i've heard of her of course um so so uh yeah so we filmed it a long time ago and uh sort of you know it took it sort of you know and again like it's one of those things that just sort of

funny how things work out and it just worked out to where it was perfect timing it was after naomi osaka and her french. Uh, it was after obviously the Olympics and Simone Biles. Um, and now we're seeing people come out, um, like Tyson Fury, like, you know, yesterday or the day before, you know, and, and, and, you know, I think it's really important and great for people, um, to understand that, you know, the, the first two ladies that I mentioned are stars total, you know, some of the, the first two ladies that I mentioned are stars total, you know, some of the best to ever do what they do. Um, they're females. Um, and I think a lot of males out there, um, I was disappointed in sort of the response from a couple, you know, from,

well, from a lot of people, um, when, when and simone came out specifically simone where um where it's like she's trained for five years for this specific olympics and her whole life to be in this position you think she just doesn't want to compete like and people were saying yeah i think she doesn't want to compete i think she doesn't want to compete. I think she doesn't want to lose. It's like, come on. Like we got to educate these people on how she's feeling and why she's feeling like this. Um, and, and, and all the better if she wants to talk about it as well. Um, having male athletes come out and sort of say, Hey, this isn't about being soft or, you know tyson fury is a heavyweight champion of the world he just comes out like that is the ultimate person to come out and say hey this isn't about um being tough or not like i get punched in the face on a you know for for profit so like you know in speaking for

someone like him and there's been a football players that have, that have said it as well, where, you know, these guys are tough, you know? So it's not like a physical thing where it's like, Hey, I can't handle being tackled in the NFL, or I can't handle being in the ring or the octagon or whatever it is. Um, and I thought that was maybe really important for, um, for them to come out for, for males to come out and say, I also struggle with this stuff, um, for people on the edge to go, you know, or who are like, Hmm, I'm not sure I believe that person or I'm not sure, you know, okay, well, they're pretty tough. That guy's pretty tough. Tyson Fury coming out with a, with a video yesterday, that guy's pretty damn tough. So I think, um, I think that stuff is great. I think

it's stuff's awesome for, for, for people to come to talk about it, to say, let's end this, this ridiculous stigma of like not being able to say what you think or feel. And again, I've gotten, you know, those messages that I've gotten on, on Twitter, um, uh, are some, some are, some are so cool that like, you know, that you get the ones where, you know, this doc saved my life and stuff like that. And obviously that's incredible, but, but the ones where I saw your doc and I called my boss right away and told him that I am going to stand up in front of those people and do give that speech, which I wasn't going to do before I saw your doc. So like, it's those kinds of things where it's like everyday people having everyday struggles, don't matter what you do for a living, whether you're a journalist, whether you're a

professional tennis player, or whether you work at Google, everyone's world is their own. Everyone's bubble is their own and have their own anxieties and stresses in their life and it's all it's all equal and different if that makes sense right like it's all like no no just because i was a professional tennis player doing it in and my job just entailed being in front of thousands of people or millions watching whatever. That doesn't mean that my world was bigger than your world as a journalist, still trying to provide for your family, still trying to find that niche in MMA and journalism and trying to break yourself out of that. Like that's your world. And it doesn't mean that because I did it in front of people or you did it in front of people and a doctor

doesn't do it in front of people that ours is bigger than theirs. Everyone is equal in terms of mental health. Mental health doesn't care what your last name is, what you do for a living. It can take anyone down if you don't take care of it. You mentioned earlier that you still haven't watched and I totally understand why. What is it like, because I know you've done media for this doc and you have to talk about it. You have to talk about this a lot. And I can't imagine 10 years ago on the heels of that Federer match when you're at your lowest, you thinking like now you've become this advocate where you have to relive it and talk about it and be inspirational. Does that get to be draining? Is that exhausting? It can be, I use maybe the word overwhelming a little bit because I get, you know, again, like I do other things. I work in finance, in the finance world. I'm the Davis Cup captain for the U.S. I still keep an eye on, obviously, you know, American tennis. Tennis will always be part of my life. Sport will always be part of my life. I've got two kids and a wife you know like so like I have life is there obviously um and this adds a lot of um a lot of things that can

be overwhelming anxiety and stress wise um but it's something that I'm super passionate about obviously um and something that I really care um to my story, because again, like the whole reason doing it was when I was going through it, I didn't have something or someone, some someone's success story of mental health to lean on and go, okay, here's someone who was in the sports world, let's say, and competing. Mental health took them away from their game for their job for a little bit. And they got it back. They jumped back into the fire and they were successful at a high level. And I wanted people to have a success story to lean on that were going through some similar issues that I was going through when I didn't have that. Can you recall when you started to feel like you were anxious? Like, were you an anxious kid? Were you an anxious teenager?

When did this start to become a part of your life? Yeah, 2012, Wimbledon. So that's like kind of late June. I had a heart issue called tachycardia that was fixed with a procedure called an ablation. Really quickly, tachycardia is a electrical issue, uh, that that's around your heart. There's electricity around your heart or electroids. Um, it's like the quarterback to your heart. So when they fire, it tells your heart to beat. So fire up a bump, fire up a bump. They can, there's thousands of them. They can fire uncontrollably or malfunction and they'll fire uncontrollably when they malfunction and your

heart doesn't know, but to beat. So they're firing. Um, I trained at a, uh, at a different, you mentioned, um, you know, sort of reinventing my career in the middle of, in the middle of my career, reinventing my, myself and, and losing a bunch of weight, getting on a diet or losing over 30 pounds and like really taking fitness to a different level for me, I trained with a heart rate monitor on. So I knew exactly, I trained really diligently. I knew exactly how high I could get my heart, my heart rate and how, and then how quickly I can get it down within 25, 30 seconds, you know, in between a point and then do that over and over and over again. I couldn't get my heart rate above 192.

Like I never saw it above that. When these experiences happened or this attack of cardio would happen, it would be 220, 230 beats per minute. And so naturally I was like, oh my my god am i dying i i feel like am i my heart going to explode you know like i don't know what's going on i can't stop it um and it's just it was just a i thought i was dying like i thought honest to god thought i was dying and so a couple times i had to go to the hospital for that. And, and from that, I, I feel like along with the stress and anxiety of just, you know, my job and life and everything, um, expectations had changed,

things like that, um, that, uh, that, that it would, I would, my mind would sort of go back to those traumatic experiences and go, is this going to happen again? Is this happening again? Even though I had the ablation and it was successful, I only felt comfortable on the tennis court. That was kind of like the only time where I had other things to think about and worry about trying to beat somebody on the other side or trying to practice and get better and do things. So I had things to think about there. That part was taken away from me in the match before I was supposed to play Federer, where I ultimately pulled out. That match was the first time that the anxiety hit me on the court. And that was my only safe haven.

And that was gone. And that was a really bad, that was rock bottom. I mean, that was a really, really bad time for me to where I was like oh no I can't go anywhere now and I knew it I knew that I could go to the tennis court and get away from it um but Wimbledon you know Wimbledon was kind of that first time where it was like you know I had the ablation in May and sort of slowly you know just kind of slowly Wimbledon then you go to Toronto you play in Toronto and then we go to Cincinnati um and again I was fine on the court and just terrible often but so I would get on the court all the time and and that was my solace and so just to be clear like you're

12 13 14 you have no issues with anxiety you were not that kid really interesting um and and that match before Federer you actually win the match but as you say in the doc you don't remember much about it and I'm wondering if um looking back and I'm sure you've replayed it a thousand times is there a part of you that wishes you played the Federer match and even got whooped like lost you know six nothing six nothing six nothing and just kind of showed up as opposed to not showing up? Did you put more stress upon yourself, more, you know, pain brought upon yourself, embarrassment, whatever, because you made the call not to play? Do you ever relive that? I don't, you know, look, partly because like, I could have easily walked out there and lost

anyways. He, we actually played the week before in Cincinnati, we had a really tight match, but he beat me again. Um, so, you know, it wasn't one of those things where it was like, you walk on the court on against Federer and in that time of his career and, uh, you've got a good shot to win, you know? So like, you know, there's obviously that in the back of your mind after the fact. Um, but, but, you know, obviously not, not before it. You think you can win and you think you can do it. I did get on an airplane that afternoon to try to go home and fly home because all I want to do is get home. I've been on the road for a long time, you know, throughout the entire summer and start the process, get a doctor, find, you know, get some medication, find the therapy that I needed.

So I didn't have any of that stuff yet. And so we tried to get on the plane. One guy behind this sat behind me, say, Hey, what happened to you today? You know, kind of thing. And I was just like, Oh no. You know, and, and the door closed on the plane and plane pulls out. I jump up. Thank God my wife is there. Cause I, I'm not the kind of guy that would like cause a stir or anything like that. And she jumps. I said, I can't do that. Can't go. I can't go. And this is New York to LA. It's a long flight obviously. And I'm like, how am I going to do this? How am I going to do this? And it was like super embarrassing, but for her, it wasn't at all. She was like a medical emergency. She jumps up right away and,

and says, we got to get off the plane you know and we get off and it's a big you know people watching and like it's like really embarrassed our our bags like you know where it's too late our bags are already gonna go to la and i just had to get off the plane so like um you know there's a couple times like that but no no i don't look back and go man i wish i would have played i wonder what would have happened i have no clue how i would have gotten through that match um i have no clue how um in the doc it you know it sort of details uh us driving to the courts that day to the site that day to play literally the match that you train your whole life for or, or sacrifice your, your, you know, like everything for, you know, fourth round quarterfinals, us open biggest tournament of the year,

greatest player of all time. You know, Labor Day weekend, like that's, you know, back when CBS had the call and, and Dick Enberg was doing it, you know, like those, I remember I was was i was a fan too so i remember all that stuff i was playing that match like as a kid i watched that match i was playing it um and i couldn't do it and like it and and you know thank god um my wife again like you know was it was a part of that process because um because if she wouldn't have said, hey, you don't have to play, driving over to the site that day,

that thought never would have crossed my mind. We're trained as athletes to never show weakness, never show fear, never quit, never give up. And I was that to a T. I would refuse to put my hands on my knees if I was tired to show the other person that uh that I was tired I wouldn't do it I'd bluff it like it was no you know like until until I was dead um and so that thought never would have crossed my mind to go to the courts and not play that match. And so for her to say, you know, babe, you don't have to play. And I was like, right then and there, I was like, you're right. I don't have

to play. And I felt better immediately. And so that was the start, you know, rock bottom, obviously, but the start of the healing process was saying to myself and being putting myself first and saying, you're right, I don't have to play. I don't have to think about the USTA and the match that they the world at the time to playing Federer, who's, you know, the greatest player of all time at the time. There's a lot of things that go into scheduling a match like that and people flying in and media. And, you know, it's just and for once in my life or my career, I put myself first and said, I can't do this. I can't play. And that was a, you know, obviously a big, a big turning point for me. So that was September of 2012. And I think you returned in March of 2013, right? Yeah, I did. I came back to, you know, I, again, I felt, you know, it was a long process to,

to, you know, sort of start the process of medication and therapy and all that stuff. And to get to the point where I even thought about playing again. And I tried to play, stepped on the court in Indian Wells, which is down the road from us. A tournament that I've had success at, been very comfortable at. So I thought, hey, this is a great starting point to see how you feel, you know, and went out there and didn't feel great. I played, I tried. I think I even won my first match and lost after that. But, you know, I toyed with trying to play throughout this process to ultimately, you know, ultimately get to finish my career in 2015. And those six months, like what is life like for you? Um, is it like,

are you not leaving your house? How are you, how are you living in those six months? I was, um, uh, the only time I left the house was to go to the doctor, um, to see the doctor. I saw a doctor basically every day for the first couple of weeks, then like five days a week, um, uh, then four days a week, you know, and like sort of, uh, was, um, got it to where I could, um, you know, not have to see him every day. Um, but it took me probably four months to, to a movie. My wife and I went to a movie, sat right, I had to have a Xanax in my pocket just in case I had, even though I hated taking them, I had to sit right next to the exit and like, I'll never forget it. And my wife and I went and watched some movie. I have no idea what we watched. Um, but that was the first time that was four months

after. Um, so I didn't, I didn't leave my house one time. What is it like being a husband during this period where you don't have kids yet? Right. Um, but you know, you, you're obviously going through a tough time. Are there thoughts in your mind like what's going to happen to my marriage? You know, she's taking care of me. You know, that's I think something that people fear is that like you seem weak to your partner. You seem inadequate. They don't want to take care of someone who can't leave the house. They want to live their life.

They don't feel these things. They don't understand what's going on. Are you thinking these things as well? Can't remember that. Not, no, probably not. I mean, look, she was, she was an angel, literally an angel looking after me. If she wasn't there, if I didn't have, a support system is massive. Number one for me in like a list of, if I list a few things, three, four things, support system would be number one.

Being able to be vulnerable with someone, letting them know exactly how you feel and being open about how you feel is my number one, my number one sort of way to beat mental health or to get your mental health under control. And so I was incredibly lucky. I have no idea if I'd still be here. If she wasn't around, I had thoughts of hurting myself. Am I going to hurt myself? Am I going to hurt others around me that are close to me? You know, I don't own guns or weapons or anything like that. So like, and thank God I didn't because I have no, you know, again, like no idea. And I'm fairly confident that I'd be dead or in a ditch somewhere or something. If I didn't have the support system of my wife, my family, my father flew out, he lives in Florida. My parents live in Florida.

They flew out from time to time. I'm from Minnesota, so I'm a big Vikings fan. He'd fly out during that time. I remember him coming out almost every weekend in October to watch the Vikings with me and fly back. So incredible support system. And again, if I didn't have them, there's no telling if I'd still be here or not. When you start to feel better, is it because of medication? Is it because of therapy? Is it a concoction? Like, how do you start to feel like you are turning the corner in life? Because I know some people feel like there's no end, right? It's just this dark tunnel that, you know, how am I going to get out of this? Do you remember that moment when you started to feel like you were turning the corner? I do vividly. Actually, I remember

thinking to myself as the medication would kick in, see, you know, number two for me would be like medication and therapy, like finding a, finding a psychiatrist that can prescribe the correct dosage or, or, or drug for you that can sort of help start the process. I'm a pretty big believer in that. I know there are people that are in the mental health world that don't believe in the medication. I don't know, again, like this is one of those things, I don't know where I would have been or how I would have gotten to the point to start the process of healing without the medication to just sort of take the

I didn't mess with my cognitive at all but like you just sort of take that anxiety edge off a little bit I just remember going like one day just going I didn't think about it as much as I did yesterday um and that was like you know moment one of the healing process and and and and again for those people and I know that it felt like when I was in it you know I think I always say to my wife I just can't wait to to go back and I'm not a big drinker alcohol wise but I you know like a beer or two from time to time with my friends and I don't drink anymore but I used used to and and you know I just said I can't wait to get back to being able to like, go play golf and have a beer with my friends afterward, like just as simple as that. And, um,

I couldn't do it for months and months and months. And, uh, and eventually, you know, and during that, during that time, you're like, I'm never going to get out of this. When is this going to end? When is this going to end? Um, I going to end? I remember asking my psychiatrist, and this still rings true to this day. So just can't wait for this to be over and move on with my life. Forget about this and move on. Because I was going in the right direction. And he says, Marty, this will always be part of your life. This part of your life, you'll remember forever.

You'll always have an issue with not word this correctly. Like you'll, you'll always issue isn't right. The right term you you'll always, you'll, this will always be something that you'll have to deal with on a daily basis, whether you may think about it that day or not. You know, I have some awesome weeks now where I don't think about it at all. And then I have a, they'll have a day where I'm overwhelmed and, and it'll take me back a little bit and I'll have to go outside and, and, and, you know, sit on my phone and play a, play a game of, of hearts or something like that on my phone, you know, like as simple as just taking my mind off of what's going on. And then like the third thing would be for me is like

learning, developing the tools to learn how to change. I call it changing the channel on your mind or changing the channel on negative thoughts. So like literally just picking up a remote control and changing the channel on, on when you're having anxiety or stress or panic to develop the tools because you can, everyone can develop the tools to go, okay, I'm going to take my mind somewhere else. And, you know, for me, it was golf. I, you know, it was like sort of an outlet for me outside of tennis was golf. So I would very vividly in detail, take my mind and take myself to my most favorite place in the world, which is a place in North Carolina where I grew up going, uh, spending summers. Um, I would,

I would vividly, uh, put the tea in the ground. Uh, what color was the tea? What number was the golf ball? Um, uh, uh, what was the weather like? Was there wind? What was the smell like? Things like that, really detailed and vivid about where I took my mind. And my thought was to just play the golf course. So hit the shot. How did it go? Beautiful drive straight down the middle, every time. And I never got to the fourth hole. Never in my 10 years or nine years of dealing with this, I've gotten to the third hole. And my mind is sort of gone. And I'm thinking about other things now. And I've changed the channel on those negative and anxious moments or anxious thoughts.

So developing the tools, that's just a tool that I use. Doesn't work for everyone. Maybe it works for some people. Maybe some people listening to this can try it. Take your mind to a place to where you're most happy, you're most comfortable and vividly put yourself in there and, and, and think about um, how much that makes you happy, how much that puts you in a really good frame of mind. And, um, and, uh, and that can change the, change the narrative of your thoughts right then. Um, since the Federer match that, that was not to be, have you had any real, you know, setbacks, if you will, or is it just the constant, you know, as you mentioned, some good days, some bad days, good weeks, bad weeks. Is there something that we don't know about that, you know, happened recently or has it

been, you know, pretty? It's been pretty, yeah. I mean, it's a good question. I mean, it's once I got, there's like, I sort of felt like there was sort of a hump to get over. Once I got over that hump, it was sort of like, okay, yes, I got on an airplane and I had a panic attack. Okay. Lots of people do that. That happens. Sometimes I was by myself. I had, okay situation and go, okay, how did that happen? Okay. Uh, you know what? I actually had an extra cup of coffee that day. Um, maybe that's too much caffeine for me to get on a plane by myself. Um, so let's, let's bring it down to one cup in the morning instead of two. And there, you know, there's obviously sacrifices

you have to make, um, to, to really get yourself out of it. But you can learn from every episode that you have. And that's what I tried to do. And I'll still have episodes every, you know, every so often and have to deal with it. But you win, you know, and you win, you try and win every day, mentally and, and just, you know, keep going. I will ask you this question, by prefacing that this is something that, you know, happened to me recently. So I've been very anxious, my and I'm not trying to make this about myself. But just so you know, where I'm coming from, I've been a very anxious person my whole life. I've had moments of horrendous anxiety, especially in college. And during the pandemic, especially early on, I was actually really happy because

it's like, oh, I don't have to go anywhere. I could just be home with my kids and my wife. And this is great. No, you know, no obligations to do anything, no obligations to go to, you know, the airport, to be away from them, etc. And then when I started to have to go back, I remember I was asked to go do an NBA game for for espn uh in milwaukee and i just i felt like i physically couldn't leave my house i was so because of the pandemic because i was home in this routine and because of everything going on in the world i physically could not leave my house and that's why i went out and uh seeked help and uh why i talked to a therapist it was enough enough was enough like i really physically felt like i couldn't do it. And I know the pandemic has, you know, affected a lot of people. How has it been for you? Did you

feel like it got at all worse during this past, you know, almost two years? Yeah, candidly, initially, it got a lot worse. To the point to where my wife is Jewish. So we had, it was around April. Passover. Yeah. Yeah. So Passover, there you go. So I was tasked to pick something up at her parents' house. You know, it was just like, you know, you're, you're sort of, you know, again, like what's going on with the world? What is this thing? Why do we have to wear these masks everywhere? Blah, blah, blah. Are we, is everyone going to die? You know, kind of, kind of thoughts like everybody else had. And I was tasked to drive

over, drop something off and come back. And I was to, to be home at four 30, you know, and I got stopped by a cop for a, a lane change without the blinker. I mean, come on, like the most ridiculous one. And I got, I, you know, and I got pulled over, I was late dropping iter. I mean, come on, like the most ridiculous one. And I got, I, you know, and I got pulled over, I was late dropping it off. I got back, I was late starting the zooms that we were doing with the, you know, cause we weren't, no one was seeing each other. So we were doing the zoom Passover. The wife was upset, but didn't know what was going, you know, that I was late and why I was late or whatever and got on me. And and I'm not a crier like really at all and I just broke down like right there and I was just like I got stopped by a cop and like this and that and like

I just I can't do that you know and like so yes like I was as human as possible um uh during COVID or just just during the beginning of the pandemic because like everybody else we were trying to figure out what's going on we i'm not used to being home that much i've always moved around my entire life even my junior career or junior tennis since i was 15 14 15 i've moved around my entire life um so so uh so i wasn't used to being home for months on end and I was, um, so that was uncomfortable for me as well. Like just didn't was outside of, you know, again, outside my comfort zone. And, um, so yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was rough. Um, not as rough on me as it was for others, because again, I had the, I had the support system. I had the doctor and the therapy, and I opportunity to, to sort of talk to a lot of

either collegiate athletes, collegiate tennis players, collegiate, you know, sort of young aspiring athletes have reached out, whether it's on Twitter or whatever, and all, a lot of them, all talk to them and go and have, you know, develop a relationship and a friendship and say, you know, tell me what you're thinking, what's going on. I wish I had someone like this that would do that would have done this for me. So I'll do this for this person kind of kind of experiences. These kids had some rough times, man. I mean, rough times during the beginning where they wanted to stay at college, but a lot of people left college and they didn't, you know, so they're by themselves. And, you know, it's just like a, you know, weight, weight, weights upon weights on their shoulders of trying to compete in their collegiate sport, as well as trying to get good grades and things like that. And I've talked to a lot of randomly, just a lot of, you know, again, collegiate athletes that, that really struggled. Um, um, and, and, and I, I love doing that because a,

it made me feel better, like just selfishly. Like I, I always felt better about my anxiety when I opened up and talked about it. Like right now, I feel great about talking about my mental health. And then it made me feel great to help people, to help somebody, to be that person that they can lean on and still text to this day. And that was, you know, a year and a half ago. Hey, how you doing? How you feeling? Oh, I feel this. I feel that. I feel great. I don't feel great. You know, things, you know, and, and so it's nice to just begin, like, it's nice to just be that success story to where people can say, oh yeah, I remember that guy. Um, I remember his name's last name was weird fish name or whatever. I don't like tennis or talk tennis or watch anything, but I remember that name. And I remember

that guy, he came out with that mental health thing and now he's, now he's doing really well. That's great. And, and that, that was the goal. Um, I'm curious how you feel about this. It's something that I worry about. I was talking, I'm not going to name names, but I was talking to, um, a fighter recently who, uh, was going through some stuff and, uh, they told me that, um, they couldn't compete due to mental health issues. And then I spoke to someone very close to them and asked how they were doing. And the person said, no, this isn't mental health. They are using that. It's X, Y, and Z.

And it's kind of a crutch because now it's a topic that people are talking about and people are trying to be sensitive to it. Are you worried that because this is now being talked about so much that people don't quite understand what this is and will just use it, quite frankly, as an excuse to get out of things? Is this something that you fear? No, what I fear most is the person who you went to after and said, that said, no, he's just using this, that person, I would guess, would, is, is uneducated on mental health, what mental health is, what, what it feels like. That person probably has never, and again, just to guess, that person has never gone through or dealt with mental health issues or had anyone close to them deal with it.

That's just educating people on what it may feel like. Do you think that fighter, I mean, these fighters, you're talking about the gnarliest dudes and men and women on the planet, like they want to get paid what they get paid, which I know you've talked a lot about, which is not enough to beat their heads in every time they go out there. These people are tough. They are the definition of tough. So if someone like that comes to you and says, hey, I don't feel well. And my mental health isn't right. I don't feel good. Man, I'm going to believe them. Because those people are, those people are the definition of tough. And that's the idea is education, educating those that don't understand. It's the people that thought Naomi Osaka is just going to pull out of the French

Open because she doesn't want to talk to the media. It's the people that thought Naomi Osaka is just going to pull out of the French Open because she doesn't want to talk to the media. It's the people that thought that Simone Biles thought that she was going to lose. So she didn't want to compete in the Olympic Games. Those are the people that you're trying to touch and hit and educate on mental health. When you hear stories like that, very recently, one that hit close to home for me, my favorite hockey team, the Montreal Canadiens, my favorite goalie is Carey Price. And now he comes out. He's the best goalie in the NHL, yeah. Yeah, I'm probably biased, but I think he is.

He's an absolute legend. He'll never have to buy a meal in Montreal. And now he says that, you know, he can't play. And the details are a little bit uh unclear but it appears as though based on what his wife wrote that he's dealing with some mental health issues when you see these stories come out does it take you back to 2012 how do you react when this comes out for sure because you know what would have been the the press release for myself in 2012 if i was going to say hey i'm not playing because of my mental health um I have no

idea how I would have like put that together or how my agent would have put that together um so we don't know you know we have no idea the scope of him um I'm you know I don't know him at all of course I've heard of him um but I don't know him at all. Of course I've heard of him, um, but I don't know him at all. I'm proud of him and his wife, uh, who sounds like a saint as well, just like mine, um, an angel I call her. So she's, she's probably, um, just like that. Um, it sounds like he has a phenomenal support system around him, which again, I said is number one, first and foremost for me, um, in mental health. So, so yeah, I mean, like, I don't know, you know, you're right. Like it was worded differently to where it was like kind of

vague to where, how he's feeling. He, you know, didn't say like, Carrie is dealing with anxiety and this is X, Y, and Z. Like, it's not, you know, it's, it's, it's really difficult. It's been impossible for me to articulate. I don't have the vocabulary. Maybe you do. You sound smart. Where, where to, to articulate exactly what anxiety feels like, you know, it's like, okay. It feels like I want to curl up into a ball and I've got a lot of things on my plate and I just don't, I don't know what to, it's just really difficult for me to my plate and I just don't, I don't know what to do. It's just really difficult for me to vote, to, to articulate exactly. I don't have the vocabulary to do it. I don't think many people do.

So like, it's really hard to, to actually put in terms of how you want it to come out for someone like him who's in the, obviously the spotlight how to put out a public statement is never going to be worded perfectly for everyone to understand. But for you and I who have dealt with anxiety issues you're like, good for him, you know, for him to, to put that first. I guarantee you this isn't the first time he's dealt with this stuff. He probably has had it for years and never felt comfortable coming forward and stepping away from his job.

I probably felt pressure from either the fans or the franchise or whatever. I don't know team sports very well at all, but I don't know the dynamic of the pressure of, of competing in, in, you know, getting guaranteed money and having to compete like that. Um, and just saying, Hey, my mental health is, is hurt as opposed to my ankle is hurt or my, my shoulder is hurt and I can't perform. Um, so I don't know the pressures of that. Maybe there's something there to where they didn't under, you know, they don't feel super comfortable you know the way they you know the way you worried i don't know um but i'm again like again i've never met him super proud of him for coming out his wife obviously for coming out um and saying that this

is what's going on and we're going to take a step away and just curious and by the way we're rounding third here i appreciate the time very much um this this is great uh for you you didn't initially say was mental health the reason why you pulled out of the match when did you first reveal that and why did you do so when you did it was probably um to my friends it was probably 2013 you like maybe, maybe a year later, um, maybe to my family, you know, I get, I get things from my mom. I remember my mom, what should I tell my friends? You know, like, and I'm like, I don't know what you should tell your friends, mom. Like I'm not feeling well.

So like, I don't know what you should tell your friends. Are you playing again? You know, kind of thing, you know, and there's always, and my mom's the best, like, so it's, you know, just as most supportive mother you could have. So like, if, if, if that's what people are dealing with, with a really supportive mother, imagine like, you know, parents that, you know, we don't know the dynamic of, again, Naomi, I bring, keep bringing Naomi and Simone because they're just such stars. And it was so polarizing what they did or what they were going

through that we don't know their family dynamic. Obviously we know what Simone has gone through, which is hell. But I don't know, you know, I know Naomi, but I don't know her family situation and, you know, what her parents are like or not or whatever. We don't know these reasons. And so the, the, one of the main things that I came away from this whole thing was judgment. And I was always kind of a, why'd that guy do that? Why'd that person do that? That's weird. Why did they, you know, I wouldn't have done that, you know, kind of thing. I don't judge people anymore, or at least I try not to, because you just have no... Mental health is a physical... It's your brain. Your brain is part of your body. It's physical, I think. It's physical. Even though it says mental health,

it's part of your body. It's an injury that's part of your body that just isn't... It's not something you can see. It's, you have another injury in your body and you're limping, you have an ankle injury and you're limping, you're on crutches. We see Conor McGregor, he's on crutches. We can see he's injured. You can't see that Carey Price is going through what he's going through because it's internal.

And that's why it's really, it's really helpful that people don't judge others as to why they do certain things, um, because they have no idea what's going through their head. Do you worry, um, about whether or not your kids will go through this? Um, not really. I mean that, you know, my, my son is, uh, my son is a softy, you know, like his mom, he's got like, like uh he he's just like his mom looks like his mom thank god and and uh and and you know he's i i had we had a golf tournament yesterday

he plays golf um i'm trying to get him into golf nine hole uh golf tournament and um first couple holes didn't go well he's mopey and and stuff and you want to you want them to have fun and not burn themselves out to where they can they're forced to do it and they feel like they're forced to do something um so i'll always be open to there's a fine line right like it's like are you quitting because you just don't want to you don't want to play and you're quitting on your teammates or are you feeling uncomfortable and anxious and you don't you just don't want to, you don't want to play and you're quitting on your teammates or are you feeling uncomfortable and anxious and you don't, you know, and like, let's talk it through. Let's make sure that you verbalize your thoughts internally to me or to

your family, to your parents. And, and, you know, I mean, I feel like I have the tools to either spot it or help get through it or help get it right away, catch it right away with my kids. But, yeah, I mean, it's you know, it's it's prevalent. Clearly, it's prevalent. It's prevalent in children a lot. And and again and again, this pandemic and these kids and they've got, you know, out here, they have to wear masks all day at school. And so they're, you know, they're what's going on. They're like, what is what is this? You know, and four years old and six years old and seven. It's really hard to understand what's going on as a child. So, yeah, I mean, there's you know, it's hard right now.

And life is hard sometimes. And life's also amazing. And when it's hard, now and life is hard sometimes. And life's also amazing. And when it's hard, um, you, you must be good to yourself. Um, you know, put yourself first before others for once, probably in your life, you know, like people always put others in front of them. Most people, most good people, most people that you want to be friends with do. And, um, and, and it's important to put yourself first right now. Put your family first and make sure that you yourself are good before you can try and help others. Is there something that you make sure to do, be it big or small every day, so that you kind of have a good day? I mean, obviously, there are factors that will influence that. But maybe in

the morning, as you wake up, there's a lot like, I look at my phone when I wake up and I hate that. And I wish I could stop that. And I think that that would help me greatly. There's little things that I would love to correct. Is there something that you do that helps you? I do that too. Honestly, I do that too. But my phone is an outlet for me because there's a lot of things on there that are helpful. A lot of things that can sort of take my mind off it i mean i get my news from twitter so like it's hard to not you know like i tried to i i i uh deactivated it uh at one stage and you know reactivated it like a week later so it's just like how am i gonna get my news now it It was hard. It was hard. It was hard. So like, you're right. Like we're, we're, we're, uh, we're addicted to that thing. Um, and those, those devices, um, yes, I go outside a lot. Um, I'll take time, um, on my own. Um, I like, I like having, you know, 15,

20 minutes on my own, um, just to go outside, sit in the sun. I'm a big believer in sweating, trying to sweat every day to some capacity, exercising every day. You know, and so, yeah, I mean, it's getting, you know, I try and get sun every day and exercise every day. From then, if I feel like feeling like I'm overwhelmed, I want to reply to a bunch of people for this documentary or something like that. And it feels like it's a lot of people and I got to, you know, I'll go outside, I'll sit in the sun, I'll take my mind off it, I'll play a game. Like I said, like I'll play a game of hearts or something like that to where it like takes my mind away from what I was just doing, even if it's just five minutes. Two last things. Number one is a personal one. So I'm a big sports fan. I won't say that tennis is my favorite sport growing up. I was a huge basketball fan, football, baseball, the traditional team sports. My wife coincidentally is a massive tennis fan,

more of a player than a watcher, but she has great appreciation for it. Most important of all, I'm very proud of where I'm from, Canada. And I'm feeling like my country is producing a lot of great tennis players right now. Most notably, Leila Fernandez, who had an incredible run. Unfortunately, she fell short. But nothing makes, you know, is one thing when like the Montreal Canadiens hockey team does well that's great a lot of those guys aren't from Montreal or Canada uh it's another one it's someone in a singular sport whether it's fighting tennis uh does a big thing on on a big stage and especially these young athletes I mean it's just so inspiring what's going on in Canada like are

we better than the states is that is that a thing now? What's happening here? Cause it feels like. Yeah. Right now, right now on the men's side, not the women's side. Although Layla is Layla, Layla and I randomly have the same agent. I was in the U S I was at, it was in New York and I've had my same agent for 25 years and his name's John Tobias. And, and I, I said, you want to grab some lunch? She said, I've got to watch a client play. And I said, who? Layla Fernandez. And I was like, who's Layla Fernandez?

Why do you have Layla? I was like, again, like I was like, why do you have Layla Fernandez? I've never heard of her. And sure, you know, she makes the finals of the tournament. All of a sudden, like I've gotten to become good friends again because of tennis with Steve Nash. Nash, he's a huge tennis fan um and so we talk uh canadian tennis all the time um whenever somebody wins they'll shoot me a text or something beats an american or something i'll get a text from him um and all of a sudden i'm in i'm a leila fernandez fan in two days later and nash is going to and sitting in her box for the

us open final you know so like pretty, pretty awesome stuff. They've got I love Felix Auger Aliassime. I love him personally. What an awesome kid. No stone unturned with that kid. He is going to whatever happens in his career is going to be because he works his butt off. He's tried every single thing to get as good as he could possibly get. I watch him and I see a young Federer at times with the way that he plays, his ability to just play offense. This is getting really deep tennis, tennis talk, but like his

ability to, to play aggressively, to hit shots, to try shots that like, I wouldn't even try and practice. Um, and he tries them in, you know, five all in the third set of like big matches, um, is, is Federer like for me. Um, so I see a lot of that in him. Wouldn't shock me if he won multiple grand slams. Um, Dennis, uh, Dennis shop of all of, again, is just, you know, again, an incredible, incredible talent. It's top 15 in the world. Um, these guys are going to be in the top 10 in no time. Um, uh, we don't play them in Davis cup this year. Thankfully. Um, uh, thankfully we played them last year uh vasik paspasil beat us um uh beat us and uh shop of all up beat us and then we won the double so we lost two to one to canada so we've last you know you're only as good as your last match and we lost we lost last time so i will say canada has

some has better players at the top right now but um as far as the men's side in the u.s we are deep and we are coming and we're coming after faa and we're coming after shoppo and roundage and anyone who wants and anyone who wants the sauce and then uh on the women's side we're stacked yeah the u.s is stacked on the women's side so we're good on the women's side i know they've had you know it's awesome i mean it's great that can Canada is a great tennis country as well. I always loved almost won the tournament in Montreal there. Djokovic beat me for like the 20th time in the final there in 2011, but had great memories from those tournaments, awesome tournaments.

So it's always fun to, fun to go up there and compete. I will just remind people that the state that you live in has more people living in it than the whole country of Canada. So, you know, it's not exactly apples to apples. I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying. I'm just saying, you know, I feel like we're doing pretty well. Lastly, you mentioned to me on text yesterday that the fight that you're most looking forward

to is Justin Gaethje versus Michael Chandler. Like I said, you're a massive MMA fan, which I appreciate greatly. I love when you're just randomly tweeting about, you know, a random fight night. Is there a guy or a woman right now that is number one for you? Like you are going, it doesn't matter what's going on in your life. That is your fighter. This is the one you're following. You know, sometimes we get emotionally invested in these characters. Who's your number one right now that you really love watching you know what i love ortega i love watching brian ortega i love his like composure in the ring i love he's tough as anybody um i love his like submission game he can submit he submits people

on the on the feet like it's incredible uh so i love that i love the spectacle of connor uh greatest self-promoter since ali um but but wasn't you know incredible fighter five six seven years ago i mean just awesome i watched those khabib was was insane for me um to watch i love watching shevchenko i mean she you know because like i come from the muay thai kickboxing sort of uh um background now and i come from it like eight months but you know what i mean and and i watch those types of fighters i mean she is just i mean all all the above i mean just her kicking game i mean just incredible um incredible i'm trying to think yeah like i just i love that gaethje chandler fight because i feel like gaethje

is like he lost he lost to khabib and then he hasn't fought since then and like he he was on a roll then he gave khabib a pretty good fight but i mean no one's no one's winning rounds against Khabib then so I I just and then Chandler comes over from Bellator and and takes it by storm right away I felt like he got caught by Oliveira you know kind of on like a I don't want to call it a freak thing but like I feel like if if he was maybe winning that fight or gonna win that fight so like those two are very similar fighters to me you know sort of the boxing wrestling background um i love you know again i love watching gaiju but i love it all dude like like you said like i love watching mckenzie dern like i love that jujitsu background that jujitsu stuff is so cool for for us like sort of really really really young amateur people that are watching mixed martial arts just

like the way they can finagle themselves on the ground and even the the leech and and um and uh who did he uh charl who did he fight the the just oh damon jackson yeah yeah yeah and um who was it uh uh was it? Cut him open. It was Charles Rosa. And it was a bloodbath, yes. Yeah, even that guy. Like, just their submission game and stuff is so cool. And something that I want, you know, I'll never come close to,

but want to learn badly. So I have massive respect for mixed martial arts fighters, the craft itself. I love it. I love watching. I watch every single UFC fight. I try to watch every Bellator fight. I watch every single UFC fight.

Well, I can't wait for the amateur debut. Please let me know. I'd love to break the news. It would be a huge story. Please let me know. I'll let you know after. When I get knocked out, I'll let you know after how it went, and I'll send you the video. All right.

Fair enough. Congratulations on an incredible film. You've helped a lot of people. You know this. You don't need me to tell you this. But it's just something that I urge anyone who is a tennis fan, isn't a tennis fan, dealing with mental health issues, it's just a phenomenal film. And I hope that one day you'll be able to enjoy it and watch it and be proud of it as well. Thank you so much for the time. Good luck to you and the Davis Cup team. And I'm so

happy that we've been able to meet and connect over MMA. And I can't thank you enough for giving us an hour of your time to talk about all of this. Really appreciate it. Likewise, buddy. I'm a big fan, like I told you before, and I'll continue to watch your stuff. So keep it going. All right. So once again, thank you so much to Marty Fish. I can't thank him enough. It takes a lot for someone

to talk about that stuff. It's exhausting. It's draining to sit and talk to someone for an hour after you've done other interviews, a documentary. I mean, you can't even watch it till this point.

It recently came out, but I'm sure he had access to it prior to that. It really means a lot. And so thank you very much to Marty. I wish him nothing but the best. It was great talking to him a little bit about MMA as well. And again, I really urge you all to watch.

We just kind of scratched the surface there. Watch the documentary, Untold Breaking Point. He didn't come on to promote it, but I enjoyed it. I found it illuminating fascinating and very relatable as well and I think you will if you check it out so it's on Netflix you can watch it there and I think everyone will enjoy it again you can watch this interview if you want to on my youtube channel youtube.com slash Ariel Hawane we've got our other interviews up there as well like I said

every Thursday we'll be doing this and perhaps we'll be popping up with some extras here and there. But that's the plan, at least for now. It fits really nicely with the current schedule that we have going. I appreciate everyone who continues to send in a lot of great feedback. The stuff regarding Stephen Brunt and the feedback that I received was great. It warmed my heart. I appreciate a lot of you who didn't know who he was, who said that you enjoyed the conversation.

So thank you. We've got the first three episodes up on the podcast feed. So please follow, download, rate, review, subscribe, all those things. And they're up on the YouTube channel as well. That does it for me. Again, thank you very much to Marty Fish. Thank you to the lovely Feathers.

Thank you to our great production team. And I'll talk to you next week. Enjoy your weekend. And again, thanks so much for listening. Take care.