The Ariel Helwani Show - Poirier vs. Holloway retirement fight, changing tunes on Poatan, Hughes in Belfast | The Craic

Episode Date: March 14, 2025

Petesy Carroll is joined by Uncrowned’s Ben Fowlkes to discuss Beniel Dariush potentially leaking Dustin Poirier meeting old rival Max Holloway in his retirement fight (8:39).Just after getting the show underway, the news hits of three weigh misses for this weekend’s Apex card (14:40), before the conversation returns to Poirier (19:59).The lads ponder when Ilia Topuria will make his 155-pound debut with Charles Oliveira’s camp claiming that the Brazilian has a fight booked for International Fight Week (29:15).In the wake of UFC 313, Petesy and Ben weigh-in on the changing narrative around Alex Pereira, with the likes of Daniel Cormier claiming the defeat to Magomed Anakalev underlined how the knockout artist is simply too small for heavyweight (39:56).With the announcement of Paul Hughes’ homecoming bout against Bruno Miranda taking place in Belfast in May, Petesy asks Ben if he thinks PFL fumbled the bag by not immediately booking the Irishman’s rematch with Usman Nurmagomedov (50:58).Finally, the return of Jeremy Stephens is brought into focus and the lads wonder if his re-signing to the UFC is a bad thing for BKFC on the back of his highly publicized knockout of Eddie Alvarez in Philadelphia (59:58).Join us on the bike: avironactive.com/uncrowned

Welcome to the crack everybody. How are you all doing? It is St. Patrick's weekend, Monday, of course, in Ireland. We'll celebrate the man who famously drove the snakes out of Ireland. Yes, a tropical climate so full of snakes it was back whenever St. Patrick was alive. He came over and he said, hey, I don't want none of these guys over here. And we are still appreciating him all these years later. It's going to be a big old day of it on Monday for the Irish. I'll be on the show as always, because I am so for the cause. The Ariel O'Wanney Show, the Young Crown movement that is.

But we have a lot of news to discuss today. I think Benil Dariush may have leaked Dustin Poirier's retirement fight. I mean, there was a lot of talk of Max Holloway and Ilya Topuriya and stuff like this. Alternatively, there's a lot of things to be said about what's happening at L.A. Charles Olivera, of course, saying he is booked for June 28th. So we're going to, we're going to come through that. We're also going to talk about the changing narrative surrounding Alex Pereira and maybe, you know, given the weekend that's in it, we'll talk a bit about Paul Hughes and Belfast and

what should we make of him not getting that immediate rematch with Uxman or Magomedov? So much to talk about. I'm gonna bring Ben Foulkes in in a minute. Ben Foulkes joining us the day before he goes on vacation to the beautiful city of Leith, Paris. So I'm very appreciative of him. Mendenhall couldn't be bothered, Alshadi couldn't be bothered, so I am so grateful for Ben for joining us today. Now before we get into the show, I want to give you a quick word from the homies over at Avron. You know, On Air Jordan knows all about Avron, as we all know. The king of Avron being GC at the moment, Will Brady take the fight? Who knows?

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Speaking of homies, look at this guy here. Look at this beautiful man in this beautiful shirt. Ben Mendenhall, can't rely on him. Alshadi, can't rely on him. But Ben, folks, always shows up even before the trip of a lifetime. How are you, sir? That's what I want said about me.

When I, when I hear that bell, I'm getting up off the stool and biting down on my mouthpiece and I'm coming forward. Doesn't matter what kind of shape I'm in. Doesn't matter what's happened. I'm here for you. And honestly, now after hearing your St. Patrick's story, I think I'm going to start claiming that I'm the guy who drove the giant scorpions out of Montana. And when people are like, what giant scorpions?

I'll be like, have you seen one lately? No, you're welcome. You know, can't argue with that. He's built his legacy on this. This is St. Patrick's legacy over here. This is what you learn as a child in school. And you've suddenly like, hang on, there was snakes here.

It's so cold. Well, how did this happen? And they're like, shut your mouth. It doesn't matter how it happened. He did it and you'll appreciate him for it. Of course, it's actually funny you mention it, right? So my mother grew up in this coastal town. It's a beautiful place called Scarrie's in Dublin.

It's just on the coast of Dublin. And when I was a kid, like I learned to swim so young because all my uncles were like trawler men and everything to just throw you into the sea in the middle of november like he's fine it's in his blood you know and there's this. Is this kind of pot hole in the rocks where you go swimming around scary is in the it's called the springers and as a child they were like yeah that's that's saint patrick's footprint. Yeah, that's that's St. Patrick's footprint. And I was like, until I was 10, I was like, wow, it's my the way like St. Patrick's footprint is like on the beach and scary is there. And I was like, what, why is his foot here?

I was like, well, you know, he just jumped from scary's over to this island over here. And I was like, so there's, there's another footprint over there. And they're like, yeah, maybe who cares. But that was my belief system until I was 10 years old and a great respect to the great St. Patrick. Of course, we're still a few days away. It would have been a bigger weekend in Ireland, had Ireland beat France last weekend with the rugby band.

But as I was telling you, you're going to be going into a very jovial Paris because Paris Saint-Germain have just knocked out Liverpool out of the Champions League. They're playing Marseille, a game you're going to win the six nations, the biggest European rugby tournament, which they are very proud of over there. You must be very excited. I am very excited. I'm also excited to see how this whole sports crazed environment while we're in Paris is for my girlfriend, who's going with me to the World Cup.

And I'm excited to see how this whole sports crazed environment while we're in Paris is for my girlfriend who's going with me who is not much of a sports person, really very much a performing arts person, a former professional dancer. And so we're going to go see some some dance shows while we're there. That's the part she's kind of going to the soccer game to humor me. And I'm trying to explain, you know, pass along these emails I'm getting from the the PSG team website that's basically like, Hey, have fun at the game, but please don't start any fires or, uh, you know, chant racist stuff or brawl with the Marseille fans. And I have to keep telling her like, I know it sounds bad, but it's probably going to be okay. Passion.

That's all it is. You know, it's just a very, very high and aggressive level of passion. But man, you're in for a trip of lockdown PSG playing absolutely wonderful stuff at the moment. I mean, what, what a city you're going to have a ball. Do we bring up the fact that you destroyed your knee last night playing a championship hockey game, or will we just come over that? the fact that you destroyed your knee last night playing a championship hockey game, or will we just come over that?

I think a lot of wounds, both literal and, uh, you know, emotional are still too fresh for me. So let's just say I've been better. I've been better, you know, in my mental state and in my physical wellbeing. Uh, and that's all that needs to be said about it right now. Did you win? Did your team win? Pizzi, I thought we had just agreed.

If I won, don't you think I'd have mentioned it by now? Don't you think I'd roll in here, you know, having been up partying all night and being like, woo! You know, I wouldn't even care about the knee if we had won, but damn it. One more question, right? So I got to ask, how pivotal is the fact that folks leaves the rink or the truck, whatever you call question, right? So I got to ask how pivotal is the fact that folks leaves leaves the rink or the truck, whatever you call it, right? You leave with half the game to go.

Um, would say to me that a pivotal, a pivotal moment of this championship game is when you in fact left the field of play. Well, I had two games in two different leagues last night and, uh, the knee was bad going in and it has been an issue for the last couple of weeks. And I've been wearing like a knee brace under my gear and late in the first game was where it just sort of, I was like, well, I can't really do much anymore now. And tried for a few more shifts and just like, yeah, I can't really push off of it or anything, but yeah, it, I think one of my teams, it affected

them much more than the other one, but, uh, you know, it was a long grind of a season and emotional postseason. I soared with the Eagles, you know, I, I hit it, scored a game winning goal in overtime in game one of one of these series had some, some high highs and then some low crushing lows. But, uh, you know, now we're putting the gear away until at least the fall. And the words of John Cavanaugh may comfort you now, uh, winter learn is what I'll tell you. Ben, I learned a lot.

I learned a lot this year. A lot of learns, a lot of learns happen. But, uh, let's, let's get into it, man. Uh, you had this wonderful piece that you wrote about retirements and it kind of stemmed from this conversation that's being had around Dustin Poirier's retirement fight. As I mentioned at the top of the show, Benildur used seems to have leaked that the conversation is focused on Max Holloway in terms of his retirement fight. It was Din Thomas though, that I believe was the real catalyst for the piece you

wrote. It was Din Thomas though, that I believe was the real catalyst for the piece you wrote. I believe, honor Jordan has the quote there from the great Din Thomas. Here it is here. Talking about the UFC, they don't give a damn about your retirement fight. They would like to see you on your retirement fight. They would, they would like to see you on your retirement fight be took out on a stretcher in a neck brace. I mean, tell us how you really feel, Din.

No mincing his words there. You've you've wrote a first of all, actually, before we get into your ad, are you surprised Din came out with such a strong line there? Because obviously Din is a guy that we've seen with Dana White. He's done looking for a fight. He's obviously very closely involved with the UFC. Like, I mean, I guess I saw him on Ariel a few weeks back and he was very forward as well. But again, every time I see this from a guy who's so closely

affiliated with the UFC, it kind of surprises me, you know? I was a little bit surprised by just sort of the bluntness of that remark. But then I also, you know, I've known Dean for a little while and I talked to him not that long ago for a different story in fact. And Dean's the kind of guy who will tell you, he'll call it how he sees it, you know, and I appreciate that about him and he's not wrong here. And I think one of the things, especially when I was writing this story that kind of became clear to me is this idea that, hey, the UFC doesn't care about sending you off

on a nice retirement fight for you. That is not the priority is sending you happy and whistling into the sunset on your retirement fight. They're trying to get something out of it and they're trying to get something out of it that ideally can be a profitable thing for them going forward. Since you've just told them, you're not going to make them any more money. And I think one thing you, you come to realize when you look at fight sports history is that that's not necessarily just a UFC thing.

That is a combat sports thing. That is something that we've been doing for a long, long time. And those practice of the benefit shows from, you know, late 19th century, early 20th century boxing, where a guy would retire, they'd say, Hey, we, we want to show our appreciation for him. We also, they want to do something to put some money in his pocket if he's done. And then they also want to have the same thing that we long for a lot of times in MMA is some closure on some event that marks this is the end, this is the end of this guy's career, This is the last one.

Because fighting is weird like that, right? Like how many times have we seen people retire and come back and then also retire where the only way we realized it was retirement was that they just didn't fight anymore. We didn't see them. That happens a lot too. And so it's like the game kind of longs for something

that we can point to as a defining event to say, that was it. This is the moment we can look back and this is also the moment we can kind of like close the book on this guy. Yeah, I thought it was great when I was reading the article because I think classically in MMA, we always kind of say it's a pro wrestling thing, right? Like you need to, you know, let the new blood shine in the absence of this guy going out, but in this story, you told about Dan Dwyer, this dude who's like, uh, seems like he's running a bar, but he's also the champion of the world.

And, you know, you could describe this better me, but he runs into John L. Sullivan, a famous, a brilliant, brilliant boxer fights him at like 21, I believe it is, and Jordan's just showing the article here. It is called a brief history of the retirement fight and why, as one UFC vet put it, you might leave on a stretcher, of course, quoting Din Thomas. But a wonderful story about this Dan Dwyer fighting John L. Sullivan. And then you actually, you actually go on for the talk about John L. Sullivan's retirement fight.

So this is very much a thing from the golden, well, I don't know about the golden ages, but the early ages of a prize fighting. Yeah. And you know, Dan Tewira was in a not terribly uncommon position where he was a well-known prize fighter in the Boston area, but he also was a tavern keeper. And those jobs went together a lot, not just in early American boxing, but also in the London prize ring days. It was not infrequent for a guy to be a bartender, essentially, as he's a fighter or to then

open a bar afterwards when he's done being a fighter. And it was kind of those bars then became places where the sportsmen would gather mainly to make various sports related wagers and, and drink. And he was the guy he, he gained the nickname, honest Dan, because you could trust him to hold the money when you had a bet with somebody, you know, it's, and the bets could be over anything. It could be over an upcoming fight. It could be, we're going to let a rabbit loose on the field and see if

this dog can catch it, anything. And Hey, we'll both give our money to Dan. He'll hold onto it. He'll make sure that whoever is the rightful winner of the bet gets the money. And if you have a problem with his ruling, he will come out from behind the bar and he will punch you in the face because he's also a well-known local prize fighter and on top of all that was a civil war veteran who had fought for the union army at the battle of Antietam.

So you can see the appeal that somebody might have had. Hey, let's go down to Dan's tavern. Let's hoist a few pints, you know, bet on some mice running across the floor. And if we're lucky, Dan will regale us with stories of the civil war or of prize fights he's been in and either way, you know, it's, it'll be an interesting time. That's an amazing night. I mean, that, that sounds like one of the greatest nights of all time.

That, that sounds like a more ideal kind of thing, but, uh, it's, uh, let me, oh, we just have some breaking news here. Sorry. I don't want to, I don't want to cut off the story of Dan Dwar. I'm very sorry about this, Ben, but we've had some weight misses in the highly anticipated UFC Apex card this weekend. I know you can't wait to speak about it. Marvin Vittori and Roman DeLizze, the lads of course did a big preview on this last week.

On Air Jordan and Ariel just garnished me with his info. I hope you're sitting down for this. Chitty and Jukewani has missed weight. Uh, 170 pounds he was going for this time has had some issues at 170 pounds in the past, he is due to fight, uh, Zaliski of course, um, he comes in at 172.25. Um, whoo, he's a big man for welterweight. I'm not shocked by that at all, to be quite honest. Um, won't be a good thing for him having had previous struggles in the past.

And then we have two debutants. Would you believe this? Two debutants stepping into the octagon for the first time of Contender Series wins, uh, DR Nurgazoya, I believe is the pronunciation of his name. I'm not too sure about that, but I'm going with it. He came in at 210.5 pounds. Oh, come on me for his fight with Brenson, Hiberro and another debutant. I'm ashamed to say, I'm sorry about this, Ben.

I mean, this is it's coming my way. I've got to give you this news. It is Josiah Musasa. He has come in. I know, I know you're a big fan of his. He has come in at 136.5 for his bout. It was the curtain joker. It is the curtain joker against Carlos Vera.

I mean, my word, Ben. I mean, you look disgusted. What are your immediate reactions to hearing these lads missing the weight? It's, it's desperate. My first reaction obviously is not Josiah's. I mean, you think you know a guy, you know, you follow his career and, uh, you have a lot of faith in him and then he lets you down. And it's just, it's heartbreaking.

I guess 210.5. Did you try? Did you even try? Were you just up there ordering a room service and like, you know what? The Fettuccine Alfredo is supposed to be really good here. I'll pay the fine. No, I just forget it. He didn't even get close.

Come on, mate. Um, not a good first impression you'd have to say for those lads, uh, coming into the UFC, an organization who you could say can sometimes hold a grudge. I mean, can't we all, I'm not, I'm not throwing any blame around here, but my word, um, woof. Well, they also, I mean, it's you come in and you miss weight by that much. Your opponent has to at least consider, right? Like, do I still take this fight?

You know, he's going to have a considerable size advantage over me. And you're in a no win situation because if you don't take the fight, well, now guess who they're mad at? It's not just him. Oh yes. It's you too. You'll switcheroo. Yeah.

And then you won't get paid. You know, you, you, you may not get a dime for it because they can just decide that if you don't want to take the fight. And so instead you'll be like, all right, fine. I'll take the fight. I'll get a portion of his purse, but, and the guy who's on a prelims of this kind of event, it's not like he's making six figures. You know, he, a portion of his purse is going to be still very small.

And if you go in there and you lose, nobody afterwards is really going to want to hear, but he missed weight and he was much bigger than I was on fight night. Nobody's going to have that much sympathy for it. So it's like, you kind of have to step up, take your chances here, but it also, if people look back six months later and are trying to look at your record and you lost two of your last three, nobody's going to want to hear like the last one came when you took the fight against the guy who had missed weight badly. Like it just won't register in people's memories.

Look, just, just word coming through here. Uh, Ben, uh, this is good. Look, he's going to redeem himself. He's going to attempt to anyway, according to Jedi, uh, Musasa is going to give it again. Josiah Musasa is going to give it the old Josiah's Musasa is going to give it the old colors, trying, trying to get back in those scales. That's the stupid guy is right.

You know, I should say, I know GC's in the chat here. GC talked me out of picking a Chitty and Jukewani. It was him and Rick yesterday. Cause we've put on such a bad room with the, with the picks. I was like, lads, I'm thinking, I'm thinking about, sorry, I was going to pick Zaleski dos Santos and the lads were like, I don't know, man, Chitty can bang Chitty now come at Chitty can bang. Come on.

That's amazing. But Chitty's coming in a bit heavier now. I'm quite happy that they talk it out. He talked me out of it. I believe I'm on Vallejos now, but a huge breaking news there. Just from where I found, I thought we really found our flow with our retirement shot there and then it comes in just like bang. Just saw us missed weight.

I mean, crazy shenanigans on our Jordan. Are we, are we okay to go back to our retirement talk? We're good. We're good. Okay. If, if any more news breaks, okay, on Air Jordan, you need to tell us immediately because we can't send Ben to Paris being worried about these weigh-ins. It will ruin his flight. Thank you so much. That would be beautiful. That would be beautiful.

We're talking about Dan Dwyer, a man who runs a tavern. Let's lads bet. He's such a great guy at taking these bets. They call him honest Dan. He's beating the shit out of people. He becomes famous. He hits about his forties. Am I right? Uh, Ben.

And they suddenly say, you know what slugger? I think you need to think about walking away from this life to pick it up here for us. Yeah. Well, yeah, he was in his kind of mid forties and had decided that he was done as a prize fighter, but the, the benefit shows would be a thing that they would do pretty frequently if you were a fighter with any kind of reputation and the benefit shows could be a little bit of a variety show and they did a couple for Dan Dwyer just that summer.

John L Sullivan fought on two different benefit shows for Dan Dwyer. One where he fought kind of on the undercard. And that one, especially had boxing matches, had singing and dancing, had the, uh, a demonstration of a brand new rowing machine, which was a new invention at the time and people were kind of wild, uh, all this kind of stuff. So it functioned in a way that we can recognize as fans of the modern fight game. Cause it was like, Hey, the top of the card, the reason that we're selling you tickets to this event is we're saying, Hey, it's a benefit for Dan Dwyer. Come on, come to the show.

You know, Dan Dwyer, don't you want to give him some money if he's retiring? He's not going to fight anymore. And while you're there, you can see some guys who are going to be the future of the fight game. Some guys are going to fight each other. Some guys, you know, maybe you've heard of, maybe you haven't. We get you in the door with the benefit aspect. And then once you're there, you're kind of seeing what's coming up in the fight game. And John L. Sullivan was a quick riser, even though he was 21 at the time.

And so he fought at one benefit show for Dan Dwyer earlier in the summer. And it was his second fight that day. He had fought one, you know, early in the morning, basically just after midnight. And then that night fought at this benefit show for Dan Dwyer. And he was enough of a up and comer that at the next Dan Dwyer benefit, and here's where it's also similar to the modern fight game is people basically have a retirement fight and then another one, you know, everybody we're going to do it, but also we're going to tell you it's the last time and that's kind of the appeal, but it's,

it's always the last time until the next time. And they had him fight Dan Dwyer, one of those, and he goes in there and knocks him out and, you know, to our eyes, I think it reads kind of strange to be like, it's a benefit for this guy. We're holding this event in his honor and he's got to fight a 21 year old kid who's knocking everybody out. He's got to go get beat up at his own party. But that was sort of the appeal that we're selling, right?

Is you don't necessarily want to come to Dan Dwyer's benefit. If you're a big Dan Dwyer fan and watch him fight some nobody and watch, or watch him, you know, in an easy fight, you want to see him in a really good one and a tough one for his last show. And he has a financial incentive to do whatever is going to bring in people and bring in money, especially if he's going to tell himself that it's the last one. And that's kind of what we see, right? When we look at a lot of these retirement fights, like that point that Dean was making was essentially just that the UFC is, especially if you tell them ahead of time, this is one of the distinctions he drew, where

he said, if you let them know this is your retirement fight, then they're going to look at it that way. They're going to be like, this is the last dollars we may make off of this guy. How do we take whatever value he has now and transfer it to someone else that we can make more money off of in the future? Which is, you know, especially with Poirier, I think you look at that fight that he had with Benoit Saint-Denis, right? Where that seems kind of like what they were trying to do there.

Yeah. And I think that's what made me and Chuck go so like, we were so on, on, uh, Benoit Saint-Denis ahead of that fight, which has become a recurrent theme. Chuck fell off last week. I think that's what made me and Chuck go so like we were so on Ben Walsh and then he headed that fight, which has become a recurring theme. Chuck fell off last week. We could, we could get into all that the next time he was on the show, completely capitulated last week. Drake rigs now on top of the big spoil.

Me and Ben don't need to talk about where we are. It's not about us. It is very much about Chuck. Um, but what I wanted to say was that that is the talk of this Porrier fight, talking about guys who may have won the ire of the UFC. I believe on air Jordan has a quote that slipped out of Benildi use during a submission radio interview this week. Oh, do we have it there?

Oh, here we go. My understanding is Dustin Porrier and Max Holloway are going to fight. I don't know if it's 100% sealed and done, but that's what I'm hearing. Benil Dariush letting the world know that Dustin Poirier not being sent out of the stretcher, you'd have to say, not to say that Max Holloway isn't capable of that. We saw what he did to Justin Gaethje, of course, and he's come up short against Ilya Topuriya, but Dustin Poirier has two wins over Max Holloway. I mean, this feels like.

This feels like a fight that we can all get behind it from being honest, Ben, right? Like this doesn't feel like neck brace stretcher kind of number. No, it doesn't. And it feels like a fight that honestly would make sense for where both guys are. Right. Because Max Holloway, he is in a position now where you can't really use him as the guy that they, like the UFC tried to do for a while, where if we have a contender,

we have an up and comer, let's put them against Max Holloway because Max Holloway doesn't lose to anybody but the best. And they, it seemed like the UFC was looking at Holloway for a while and being like, all right, let's have them fight some of these guys to create new featherweight contenders. Cause if you can beat Max Holloway, then you're ready to fight for a title. That like, all right, let's have them fight some of these guys to create new featherweight contenders. Cause if you can beat max Holloway, then you're ready to fight for a title. That's just how it is. And then the problem they ran into was none of these contenders could beat them.

And so then he's just knocking off the guys that you would like to see as future title challengers. And so you're running out of people to that, that funnel to the champion kind of gets clogged up by Holloway there. And so now it seems like they've slotted him in that, that kind of territory of he's a guy who does fun fights. They don't necessarily have to be about anything and they will still be really interesting, like the BMF title fight with Justin Gaethje.

I mean, sure. It was for this ceremonial BMF title, but you didn't really need that. That's all that. That's just a piece of hardware to remind you that these guys are rad and the winner is going to have to be rad. And it was, it was incredible. And so matching them up against Dustin Poirier, I think makes some sense. They had, they have that history together.

It seems like it would be a competitive and fun stylistic fight. And you don't have to tell people anything more than Dustin Poirier and Max Holloway are going to fight. And they're like, yeah, okay. I want to see it. They're not asking themselves questions about what are the stakes. Yeah. And I feel like it's something that all kind of diehard fans will feel good about.

Like it's, it's not like no one's going to hate to see Max Holloway win this fight. You know, no one's going to, you know, it's all good. Um, I, I was, I was thinking about like, everybody was kind of throwing out names for a potential Poirier fight. And we had that tweet from Ilya Toporya a few weeks back, like, you won't believe when we talked about this on the show, like you won't believe what could this possibly do, that felt like, like, I feel like if they were going to try and do the Benoit Saint-Denis thing all over again, it would have been putting Ilya in with

Poirier. But at the same time, then I started going like, hang on a second, like that could be a terrible move as well. Just given the size of Poirier, given that he's actually done this to Holloway before, when he tried to step up, he just pushed him right back down. No, too soon. We know Ilya, I mean, the big, the big worry for him coming into this division is his size and Poirier is a bona fide 155, like a big, big dude for that weight class, but, um, a lot of conversations, as I said, um, and I wanted to ask you with regard to the lightweight picture, because if this is happening, and then we also have Charles Olivera's coach saying he's fighting at

international fight week, which you would assume would be a fight against Islam Makershev given that Armen Serukhin has been pushed right back down due to his issues just before he was going to fight him. Like what the hell is Ilya Taburi doing in this division now? Like what are they going to do if, if they are doing Olivera and Islam in the summer, what the hell do you recommend Ilya to do just sit and wait? Well, first of all, when people started throwing their names in for Dustin Poirier's retirement fight, the one that made me physically angry was Colby

Covington, honestly, cause it was just like, Hey, you stay out of this Colby Covington. Nobody is talking about you in regards to this Dustin Poirier fight. And he keeps, you know, trying to get his name in that conversation. It was frankly, unseemly the way he tried to insert himself into that discussion. That would be the worst. That would be the worst thing ever. Oh my God. Nobody wants to see that.

Nobody. And also I was having this conversation with, uh, my, my podcast go-ho, Chad Dundas, he pointed out that on Colby Covington's YouTube page, he posted his video where he was like, Hey guys, still no word yet about the Poirier fight and we were like, yeah, imagine that. Chad's analogy was like him saying, yeah, you still know a word from the New York Yankees about me offering to be the general manager. Like, yeah, no man, no one is going to answer you on that one.

And as for Ilya, I really cannot understand how you would do anything other than a lightweight title fight for Ilya Depor. It, it is the biggest fight that you could make right now. I agree with Malky Kawa who said that outside of John Jones versus Tom Aspinall, the biggest possible title fight you could make in the UFC this year right now is Ilya Toporya and Islam Makachev. And I just, how could you miss an opportunity to make that fight when it's right there? And we've seen it, how bad it can go for you. If you try to sort of plot a path forward to that down the road.

Remember when, you know, when the UFC bought pride and we brought in all those guys and instead of just doing crow cop versus Randy couture for the heavyweight title, which is the fight they wanted to get to, they're like, well, let's put crow cup in here against some lower level heavyweight title, which is the fight they wanted to get to. They're like, well, let's put cro cup in here against some, you know, lower level heavyweight first, so he can go in there style on the guy. We introduce them to the American fans, make sure that they'll know him and then we'll do the heavyweight title fight. And then he got kicked in his head by Gabriel Gonzaga.

And it was like, well, there goes that plan. Now Gabriel Gonzaga, who people didn't really know that much at that point has to go and fight Randy couture. And we, you see what's so Hart being sharpshooted, right? Like that was what it was like. He got a head kick, K.O. It was like, what the fuck, by a submission guy. Everyone was like, he's, he's one of the best jujitsu guys in the world.

Bang. Dead. Yeah. Crazy. Crowcop got crowcopped by Gabriel Gonzaga. And, you know, and you, but you saw other promoters, remember when Strikeforce had that heavyweight tournament and they had Alistair Overeem and Phaidor at the time and they clearly wanted that fight, but they didn't put them against each other in the first round

they were like, alright, we'll put them each into what we think is a winnable fight for them in the opening round and then they can meet in the next round and I think it was in the next round and I think it was. Fador fought big foot Silva and got just absolutely mauled. And then Alistair Overeem fought Fabricio Ver Doom, who was just flopping to the mat and it was not very much fun of a fight to watch and you had that opportunity to make like Overeem versus Fador was a huge fight that was right there for strike force.

They had both guys that could have made that fight, but they tried to plan too far into the future and the MMA gods, they will punish that hubris. right there for strike force. They had both guys that could have made that fight, but they tried to plan too far into the future and the MMA gods, they will punish that hubris. And so if Ilya Toporya is willing to go to the lightweight division and wants to fight for a lightweight title, I cannot understand why we would do anything other than that for, does he, do you think he needs to prove anything to you before you'd want to see him in a lightweight title fight? No, it's, it's way too risky as far as I'm concerned, man. I have genuine concerns about his size for 55.

And I can remember Rick brought this up, New York, Rick on the boys in the back show a few weeks back. He was like, Tupori is not, not too much taller than Alex, Alex Volkonovsky. And then do you remember the visual of Islam v Volkonovsky? Like the disparity in size. It was like they look three way divisions apart. It was absolutely insane. And when you consider Islam's abilities, his top position, all that kind of stuff,

you grapple guys. If they're bigger, they're heavier than you. You're pretty much fucked if they get top position. If they know what they're doing, you're like, well, this is it until the fucking bell goes. I'm just, I'm down here. And, you know, have your this is it until the fucking bell goes. I'm just I'm down here. And, you know, have your way with me to some degree. Like, you know, that was my concern. So that would be that would be my biggest concern going into this.

And, you know, as I was saying, it will pour you guys like this who have been in the title situation for so long. Like, it feels like they're of a different cloth. I saw Luke Thomas talking about this clip came up from MK there recently where he's like, these, this generation of lightweights, they can't be moved from here. Like they keep trying to bleed in these new guys, but they're like, no, we're, we're fucking really good actually. And when they go, they probably won't be replaced.

All that's going through my head when I'm thinking about Ilya Depuryev. But I do, I do find myself coming back to a point I made, um, which was scoffed out on the show. I'd say scoffed out, but yeah, but you and Shaheen Alshadi and I'm like, isn't, uh, Don't do this. Isn't the baddie, isn't the baddie fighting Chandler in April? I mean, if Oliver was fighting, uh, Islam in June, I mean, there's a lot of things

that could happen here, but if you wanted it, like, I mean, De Boer is very confident that he'll, he'll deal with Paddy. So if we wanted to keep him warm here, well, Islam prepares for another defense or, you know, what might be Olivera perhaps dethroning him. And maybe that's an option. No, I'm just saying maybe it's an option. I'm not trying to force this down your neck at all. I feel like you are thinking and talking about this more even than like Patty Pimlet.

It probably, like if somebody told him like, oh yeah, there's been this talk about maybe you versus Ilya after you win the Chandler fight. He's looking up from like a plate of mashed potatoes and being like, what? Like there's who's talking about that? I mean, I understand what you're saying about concerns about the size. And I think that that is a legitimate concern for Ilya Tuporya against somebody like Islam Akhachev. But I also think that's, that's part of what makes it a good fight to make right

now is that it seems like one that Ilya Toporya would probably lose. And he made some comments, I think he was on some podcasts a little while back and he was saying that's the kind of fight that he wanted, one that people thought he would lose because he was like, Hey, at this point, after you knock out Volkonovsky and knock out Holloway, what do you do? Do you, do you fight Diego Lopez? You'd be a huge betting favorite for one thing. You'd be three or four to one against Diego Lopez, I would think.

Or do you just go into reruns or you rematch Volconovsky, which everybody would expect you to win again, rematch Holloway. He was like, if I go into a fight where everybody thinks I'm going to win, it's almost like bullying. You know, I'm just, everybody assumes that you're going to go in there and truck this guy and so when you do big deal, I want to go into a fight where people think I'm gonna lose and Islam a hot judge he fulfills that he that is a tough challenge for him and so I could understand that thinking and I think that that's part of what sells it to fans is you

This guy is willing to take on a big challenge one that we think might be a mistake for him But that makes you want to pay the money, buy the ticket and find out, you know? Yeah. Yeah. You're right. And it would be such a tragedy for 2025 if obviously Dana seems to be confident that he can get this Jones and Aspen will fight underway. He said that days after Tom Aspen was like, what are we going to do here? Like, I'm going to have to fight somebody.

And then Dan is like, it's fine. It's fine. But if we if we ran the risk of losing both these really, really amazing fights in twenty twenty five, that would really be a kick in the balls for the fan base, I think. And it just feels like to me. Olivera is crew know something. And I agree with Ariel that I think, I think they promised it to Olivera. And then to poor you happened out of nowhere for them.

They were like, we'll get another 45 fight out of the way. Like with him there. And then suddenly he arrives and they're in a situation where they're basically promising two dudes like you're next in line and it's become a bit messy. And, and really no matter what happens because Charles is adored people are going to be behind him getting another crack but you're going to be pissing off a lot of toporia fans without a doubt. My concern is he goes in the reason why I bring up bad he is if to poor you goes in

and he loses that fight I think that takes serious momentum away from the Spanish date that we could be getting. And things like that are really fun. Like when they come to a new country, especially one that is really geared towards sports like Spain, it would be absolutely insane. And I'd love to see to put you get that moment. I fear that if Islam had his way with him, like he tends to do with everyone he fights of late, it could really take the wind out of that Spanish event sales. Do you get what I'm saying? I'm not saying Patty cures all here. I'm just trying to say like, could we do that maybe in the summer and then move

on to the title fight, you know? Yeah. But also if the weight is going to be such an issue, then the weight could be an issue against people other than Islam Akhachep. So it's, if you put him in there into a lightweight fight as a way to sort of find out, hey, is he big enough? Does his power carry over? Can he do all the same stuff he was doing it by the way up a division? And you put him in against somebody like Patty Pimla, who is definitely not a small lightweight, you know, cuts a bunch of weight, in part because he lets himself gain a bunch of weight in between the fights, uh, see also my

comment about looking up from the plate of mashed potatoes, but if you put him in there against somebody like that, you run the risk of finding out, yeah, the weight was too much of an issue and not even in a fight that was going to do the huge monster numbers. Like if you're gonna, if you're going to have this whole Iliya Toporye at lightweight thing blow up, have it blow up at a title fight. Have it blow up in a big one. But with the Charles Olivera angle, it does seem like one of the USC's

favorite negotiating strategies is let's get two different guys who we could offer the same fight to. And the first one who says yes and doesn't try to have a conversation with us about how much more we're going to pay him other than his contracted rate. That's the guy who gets it. And I think that if you're talking about what could be a holdup with Ilya Tupori and Islam Makhachar, don't you think it's probably the money that, you know, you're giving up a title.

You, you have a contract that for the most part pays you points on the pay-per-view only when you have a title. If you leave yours behind, go up a division to challenge the champion, the UFC could look at you and be like, Hey, it says here on this piece of paper, you don't get points on this pay-per-view. But if you're Ilya Toporya, you're going to be like, Hey, I know what the paper says, but you know that I'm bringing the pay-per-view bias on this one. And so I'm not doing it unless I get a piece of that.

And so then they end up in a negotiation over it and the UFC can say, you know, who will do it? Charles Oliver. So how do you like that? You know, they like to have that option to play guys against each other that way, uh, as sort of like leverage in those negotiations and that could be what's happening here. That's a really good point. And again, wouldn't that just be terrible if, uh, if the two fights are seemingly

not happening because a John Jones doesn't get paid and be to poor is like, you aren't paying me enough to do this. It's a, it's a weird situation. We've talked about it at Nausium. We will talk about it again, especially when that new broadcast deal comes in. Without a doubt, that will be weeks of coverage. Just going, what are you doing fighters? Um, speaking of what are you doing for this, uh, big change in the old

conversation around Poetan of notice this week, Ben, we were laughing when we came on, you know, Friday last week, we're like, this guy could be the greatest writer of all time. I wake up on Monday and people are like, if he goes to heavyweight, he's going to die. Let's let's roll Daniel's comments here. I believe on air Jordan has them there for us. I think he's kind of maxed out the weight he can go up. I don't think he's strong enough to go with anyone bigger, says Carmier. Of course, Carmier, a man who knows a thing or two about fighting large men, a light

heavyweight and heavyweight champion of the UFC. Does it feel crazy for you that this is is this more so in this sport than any other that we have these reactionary comments? Is it the nature of the beast here? Like I tried to I tried to think about this when I'm like following soccer podcasts or, you know, podcasting with the NFL when the season's on. And, uh, I don't know if it's actually just MMA, but maybe it's cause I'm so close to it. It feels like the drop off is pretty insane when a guy loses a really close fight

that a lot of people seem to think he won. Yeah. I think that it is kind of unique to MMA, especially because any sport where it's an individual sport and also the fewer total competitions there are, the more each one means and the more data we try to extrapolate from each fight. And so it's like, if you're a baseball team and you go in there, you know, you're, you're the first place team. You lose two out of three over the weekend to the last place team.

People aren't necessarily going, well, that means that you guys were a paper tiger to begin with. They're going to one series, you have 160 more he's coming up. So we're not going to read too much into it, but with fighting, you know, 25, 30 fights could be an entire career. And we look at this one and the same way that we are known to overhype guys, they win a big fight and suddenly we're talking about if they're the goat, we sometimes are too quick to dump them when we think, all right, they're washed.

They lost one fight. They're no good. They were never that good to begin with even. And it's crazy to see people do that with Alex Brera. One of the things though, that I would point to Alex Brera now is entering his late thirties, he's done a whole lot of fighting, you factor in the kickboxing, how quickly, you know, in the span of two years from two years from coming to the UFC, he had won titles in two different divisions and here he was fighting in

his fourth fight in a little less than a year and he looked a little hesitant. It looked just like he couldn't quite pull the trigger when he needed to. And it was still a close fight. I don't know, man. I, I would watch a rematch of that one. I would be interested to see what kind of adjustments both those guys make. I think Alex Prairie was surprised by some of the stuff that I think both guys were surprised, honestly, if you'd told me Magomed Onkhalayev is going

to go 0 for 12 on takedowns, I would have told you, well, then there's no way he wakes up Sunday morning as the light heavyweight champion. And he did. And I think that both guys were surprised with some of the ways this fight went, but I also didn't come away from it being like Alex Pera sucks and has always sucked. It's a close fight. He had some moments he just couldn't quite do enough, you know? It was a close fight. He had some moments he just couldn't quite do enough, you know? Yeah. It's also like that stat, uh, specifically the takedown defense one, surely that

would play into him being better at heavyweight, you know, if it was a case where, look, I'd assign you when he moved to 205 against Yabovitch and he's just getting taken down and losing rounds via takedown, he is getting taken down and he cannot get back up. He's just simply existing underneath Blachowicz for long periods of that fight where you're like, this wasn't a good move for him. Like I feel like that kind of says, like if you're stopping a Dagestani dude from taking you down 12 times in a fight, that's a, that's a really good nod

to how good your game is. He's also a really big dude. Um, I see a lot of talk about, you know, how much confidence Pereira can get, like from, from, uh, stuff in those takedowns, but surely the same goes the other way for big Hank, big Hank is his new name, by the way, that's a, that's a new character that we're exploring now. Sunglasses, Hank, big Hank. It's all happening.

Um, but surely standing there with 25 minutes with this dude who just executing dudes with his left hand. Surely that's a big confidence boost as well. Right? Yeah, I think so. And I think that, I mean, first of all, big Hank, I don't hate it. I'll say that right now. I don't hate it.

Does he need to be bigger though? To be big? Like he's like six, three, you know, he's a big dude for like regular dudes. But like, if you're going to be, if big is going to be the thing we go with in your nickname, you either need to be a huge dude, like Tom Aspinal feels like a big Tom kind of guy. Like he has, he has a, that kind of big guy. Kind of walks like this, you know, chin up in the air.

And he's just sort of like a jovial big fellow. Uh, you either need to be that or you need to be five, three and 130 pounds. And it's ironic, you know, like that's a really fat short dude, right? That's a big guy as well. Oh yeah. Big guy. Can't I mean, ham bone ham bones are always like five foot two, but like the same width, you know, your ham bone.

We don't, I don't know if we have as many ham bone guys out here on this side of the Atlantic, but I see your point. But, but you know, he was saying the thing where he was like, Hey, you guys are all going to love me after this fight. I'm going to, I'm going to be the new champion and everybody's going to get on board. And I was just like, I remember thinking beforehand like, well, you might be the new champion, but I don't know if Alex Pereira's star power is going to necessarily transfer over to you immediately, even if you got a cool pair of sunglasses, uh, and I still don't, I think that right now everybody's looking at Magomaynak alive and being like, well, okay, fine. I guess if he has to be the champion, I guess we can live with it for now.

But I do think a rematch would make a lot of sense just because people are coming out of that. Not quite knowing what to make of that fight. Like a lot of people were complaining that it was a boring fight. I don't know if that's, I think that's a little bit of an unfair criticism, but. I do think do it again. Let us find out what the real pecking order is. If Magov and Ankalayev can beat him a second time, then all right, he's the champion. And then you also look around and go, if you don't do a rematch next, what would

you do for the light heavyweight title? Cause it's not exactly overflowing with interesting contenders right now. Yeah. And I guess that's the problem with heavyweight too, which is why I'd still say, and, um, it does look like I agree with you, it looks like the head of the wars in the media rematch. No problem with that. I'd be interested to see it again myself.

Um, but I would say that even in defeat. Pereira is if hospitals not going to fight Jones, um, or if Joe, or if somehow Aspinal couldn't fight Jones, prayer is that the guy I'd like to see stepping in there because there's, there's no one really else that you're like, wow, well, but what about this guy looming in the background here? Nobody's talking about this guy. There isn't really one of them. And the division, to be honest, every time a heavyweight fight fights now, I feel like

it means nothing without this issue being resolved at the top. It just means fuck all, to be honest. So as far as I'm concerned, Pereira is still the C guy there. Like if you were to remove one of these other dudes, Tom or John from the equation, I would still sleigh Pereira in there. No problem over anyone else just in terms of this is a banner that people will care about. Yeah, I agree with that.

And I think that, you know, heavyweight has had this problem for a while. Then it makes sense just because the higher up in weight you go, the fewer people that you are going to find to be able to get to do, especially, you know, uh, and a lot of these different, depending on where you're, you're come from. If you're a big guy who's a good athlete, there are other sports that will get their hooks in you sooner and that will pay you better. And you know, there's a whole lot of guys on the NFL who maybe would be a UFC heavyweight contenders if the NFL didn't exist, but it does. And the money's way better over there.

So you end up with a little bit of a, a thinner field, but obviously John Jones and Tom Aspinall is the fight to do and you're right. Like even if you did an Alex Pera rematch, if he lost another decision, I don't think he can go in there and get submitted for like, I'd still watch him against the winner of that fight, but either way I would still expect him to lose. I think that he, Daniel Cormier is not completely wrong there, especially what we saw in the clinch game there where he did a good job defending the takedowns

and he clearly has improved that aspect of his game, but you imagine him getting stuck in the clinch against the fence with a guy like John Jones or a guy like Tom Aspinall. And it doesn't seem like he has the strength or the size to deal with that. And so I think he, we saw a little bit of a game plan from Maga Manangalaya of like how you can neutralize some of his striking, how you can avoid that left hook. I think especially a fighter like John Jones, who has that, those wrestling credentials, and is also a smart fighter who's going to be able to look at a performance like that and be like, all right, there's a blueprint for how to deal

with this guy. I think he would just have too many ways to win. Is that because of that fight, do you think like, is that as a direct result of that fight, um, you've kind of made your mind up on the, the move to heavyweight being a bad one. And by the way, I agree with you. I thought, I always thought just due to their skillsets, just due to what we've seen them do for so long, Aspilin and Jones would be a very tough fight for Pereira, um, but do you think that really drove a home to you seeing them in there

when I go off? You know, I think I felt that way about it even beforehand, but yeah, obviously this didn't help. It's to say it's a bad idea in a way. It's kind of like, if you ask me like, Hey, do you want to come over to my place? Uh, and start drinking at 10 in the morning. And I'm like, that's a bad idea, but I will do it. You know, like it's a bad idea, but I will do it. You know, like 10 minutes.

Yeah, it's a bad idea, but it's fun. So like, yeah, I will engage in some of those bad ideas. And that's kind of what I think it would be like for Alex Brera. I think he would lose that heavyweight. I think he'd make a bunch of money. I think everybody would make a bunch of money off of it. And it would be fun and interesting. And people would want to watch.

And so at this point, you might also be making the calculation with Alex Pereira, how many more fights does he have? How many more does he really want to do? And so do whatever in the next fight is going to make you the most money. Always. That should be the rule for all of these guys. I think a rematch makes sense for Ankalayev and Pereira.

If you are figuring, Hey, maybe we'll try to do John Jones versus Tom Aspinall by some point in the summer, then the timing might work out well enough that whether Pereira wins or loses in a rematch, by year's end, you know, the UFC likes to go to Madison Square Garden in November, do a big sort of like somewhat close to the year end show, maybe the timing works out well to do winner of the heavyweight title versus Alex Pereira. Yeah.

And you could definitely sell it on like, he's got the touch of death guys. It was every McGregor fight cell, right? But if he hits you with that left hand, like every single one of them, um, speaking of fumbling the bag, I got a lot of fumbling the bag texts yesterday because PFL announced a Belfast event. Mr. Paul, big news, Hughes will top the bill against a man he described as sneaky tough Bruno Miranda, a man who beat Patrick Pippel in his last fight. Obviously a lot of people wanted to see the Ousmane and Maga Madoff fight again.

I certainly did. But I would tell you when I saw the May date, I was like, it's not going to happen. He has five weeks to prepare for this. Like, um, coming out of Ramadan, like immediately after that fight, obviously Paul lost her first meeting. A lot of people thought he won, but it was man and Maga Madoff. There was no way their second meeting was happening in Belfast. First of all, there was absolutely no chance of that. He, he still holds the power.

And then when we saw the day, obviously I knew it wouldn't be him. I think they've done well to, to get an opponent to come out and their second meeting was happening in Belfast, first of all, there was absolutely no chance of that. He he still holds the power. And then when we saw the day, obviously, I knew it wouldn't be him. I think they've done well to get an opponent, a good like a really, a really good opponent, although he's not very well known. But I want to ask you as a guy from, you know, outside of Ireland, Ben, that first fight was so good. I think everybody kind of was woken up to the fact that Paul Hughes is an elite lightweight gave Wussman a real test.

Is this a fumble for them not to go straight back to that? You know, in a way, yeah, because I think that there's going to be a lot of more interest in the second fight. I think the PFL, the challenge they have, the challenge that every fight promoter in MMA who's not the UFC has, which is you've, you've faced such an uphill climb, just making people aware that you exist and that you have a fight coming up and here's where you can watch it. That is the big hurdle for them to get over every single time.

And so when you had this fight where a lot of people maybe didn't watch it the first time, but heard about it and heard like, Oh, this was a close one. So somebody almost beat a Nermogo Madoff out here and maybe some people think that he did beat him. And if you turn right around and do that one again, and a lot of people, while it's still somewhat fresh in their minds, would be like, all right, I missed the first one, I don't want to miss the second one. Let's tune in and let's find out. And that would be obviously a much better sell than just like Paul Hughes versus somebody who, if he beats him, that will put him back in a title

shot, because then you only, only have one outcome that you can work with. You know, if he goes out there and loses, well then so long, you know, you can, you can kind of forget about making that fight again, but also don't you always feel a little bit bad, especially when the guy's a champion and has to keep fighting the same guy that he already beat and the same way, you know, Vulcanoff started to talk about that max Holloway series where he was just like, do we have to keep doing it until I lose? You know, I could see fuel in that way.

Yeah. Yeah. I guess, I guess like the the silver lining for this is me. For me is as a guy like in this scene. Excuse me, I think. I think that McGregor's behavior really negatively affected the what MMA is in Ireland, the perception of it, you know, this kind of constant stream of controversy since about 2018, since around that beam fight. The the the the the, the, the,

the island was really switched onto at one stage. And I was almost like they have buyers from Oris years later watching back. You like, do you remember you came to Vegas that time? I saw you Vegas when you were at the McGregor fight. I was like, no, that wasn't me. You get loads of people like that. Not me? I was like, yeah, you got a credit unit loan out.

Remember? You're in debt for 10 years. Like, not me. That was my brother or whatever. And the funny thing about what happened with Hughes was, right? He, he, first of all, he turns the world, the MMA people onto him through this fight with Usman, like the hard course people, people who watch all the promotions. And then it's this spot with McGregor that turns Ireland onto him.

You know, like they had already kind of turned their back on the sport. Like, yeah, that's enough of that. But now suddenly you have this guy like shaking hands with Habib, you know, like they had already kind of turned their back on the sport. Like, yeah, that's enough of that. But now suddenly you have this guy like shaking hands with her, being like, well done. You guys, you guys won this fight and I'm completely fine with that. Hopefully we get to fight again. You're a really good person. I'm a really good person. Connor's like, what the fuck is going on over here?

You know what I mean? And then he questions his Irish identity. Irish identity is such a meaningful conversation, especially up north in Northern Ireland. It's huge. It's been going on for so long since the troubles. It's something that's so intrinsic to those people. You know, it's a very long story. I won't try to do a synopsis on it now, but you suddenly see all of Ireland being like,

Whoa, you've you've completely overstepped the line here. This kid is is making a lot of people proud. And suddenly he's this hot property in Ireland. Like he was doing he was doing all of the big news outlets. When I spoke to him the day this was announced, he was speaking to the BBC before he spoke to me when they announced the tickets, it was like 10 a like 10 AM and look, I'm taking PFL's word for this. 25 minutes later, they're texting me and they're saying, we've had to, we thought it was going to be like a smaller configuration of the arena.

We've had to open it all up now because the tickets are in such demand. Meanwhile, Paul Hughes has promised like his fans, like, I'm going to get you guys a special link so you're all together. The tickets are selling so quick. He's worried like, am I going to be able to get my section here? It was all a big kerfuffle at the, at the start of the day. But I really feel like if they can get him a moment akin to a Cedric Doombay moment, it will be worth it.

Like if he can come out and look like here's the new, the new king of Irish MMA. He has a big performance. You know, when these fights happen, everyone's like, Oh my God, look at the atmosphere here. We saw it at 2014 in Dublin, every Cedric Dumbay fight, every UFC fight in Paris. Do you think it would be the juice would be the word to squeeze if they get that kind of moment for him? Yeah.

I mean, for one thing, it is interesting the way you paint the picture that how a big part of the way he became known to a lot of Irish fans was that Conor McGregor was mad at him and people were like, well, we've decided Conor McGregor is bad. So whoever is in a spat with him, we'll take that guy's side. I heard from a podcast listener of mine who lives in Dublin and he went to that, was it the Limp Bizkit concert that Conor McGregor was talking about? And he said that every time Conor McGregor was mentioned as being in attendance he got roundly booed heavily just the mention of his name drew boos in the crowd and man that lets you know

something. Can you imagine back when he was first on the way up no one thought we'd see that. Limp and Biscuit fans as well. When Limp Bizkit fans turn on you, you are fucked too. You've nowhere to go. You know what I mean? It's, it's over. Break stuff. Go for it.

You know what I mean? Yeah. At that point, are you just sitting around being like, well, maybe when Creed comes to town, it'll, it'll go a little easier for me. Uh, Oh my God. That's the arena where, where it was projected around the world. Like, look at this guy.

Like, oh my God, Ireland is the best place to go to these because people are losing the most grown men crying in the crowd. And now Fred Durst is up there looking like Santa Claus in lumberjack attire. And he's like, Hey everybody, just want to shout out Conor McGregor. And everyone's like, boo. And you can to shout out Conor McGregor. And everyone's like, boo. And you can actually hear someone, right? In the clip like boo. And you can hear someone reacting to the reaction.

They're like, this is beautiful. If you watch the clip, that's what they're saying. It's absolutely crazy. It's like the Twilight Zone, dude. I'm not surprised by that, but I'd say a lot of people in the US certainly were. Yeah. I think though that for Paul Hughes, PFL needs something like this, right? You need somebody who can get people excited, but also it always helps so much

if he has sort of like a, a backing built in somewhere where you can go and be like, if we put him in a main event here, we'll sell out. Because that's a challenge. It's they, if you're the PFL, you don't have that advantage of the UFC can sell out these events when they go to a place they haven't been to for a while or go to a new place and they just say, there's going to be a UFC event on this date. And people will buy tickets before they have any clue who's going to be on the fight card just because they want to go see a UFC event. And PFL doesn't have that. You need to have something that you can sell as of especially local regional interests and having somebody like Paul Hughes, that really gives you something.

But you also need him to keep winning fights in order for that to work. So that this is kind of a, a tricky one for him because it's, it's not necessarily an easy matchup and he could mess around and lose. And then where you go, you need him to come in there and win if you're PFL. Yeah, man. I was thinking about that. Like even when this came out, it was Ariel sex music.

That's not an easy fight, dude. Like he's only lost to open mercy. Um, a guy who can make anyone look bad. Um, he's locked up, lost a premise'm just going over your chin, mate. Best of luck. 25 minutes. This enjoy your fucking night. So yeah. Speaking about hometown talents.

I got to ask you about the return of one. Jeremy Stevens. I believe this fight with Mason Jones, another man coming back. Congratulations, Mason. The two of you. You're going to be a great team. You're going to be a great team. You're going to be a great team. You're going to be a great team. You're going to be a great team. You're going to be a great team. You're going to be a great team. I gotta ask you about the return of one Jeremy Stevens and I believe this fight with Mason Jones another man coming back congratulations Mason the dragon and the only man.

I believe I could be wrong in this now but I think so he's the only man other than Conor McGregor. No he is the last person since Conor McGregor to win to K2R so I know Dan Hardy did as well. He will be his opponent for this big homecoming in Des Moines. Obviously a lot of people thought Jeremy Stevens was this massive kind of ticket for BKFC to kind of build around after that win over Eddie Oliver as they had it in Philly. He came in, spoiled the party for the hometown favorite. Now he's the hometown favorite in Des Moines, but one in seven in his last eight MMA fights is, is that shocking? Like, I mean, is there any, is there any concern with you in terms of the, the

talent acquisition of the UFC at this stage, you know, they've let Hughes go to let Doombay go, you know, you've got people like Dakota DeJay, but these are all people who would be great in the UFC seem to be slipping through their fingers. Yeah. But don't you also kind of get the sense that they're not worried about it? Oh, 100%. That they think the fighters for the most part, they think are interchangeable. And the fan base at a lot of times proves that to be the case. You know, there are some of these tough people where when somebody rises high enough

that they think, all right, I get a special deal. I can take my talents elsewhere, like a Francis Ngannou kind of thing. The UFC kind of seems to decide, Hey, look, we'd like to keep you, but not so much that we want to pay you anything that's wildly different from what we pay other people in this situation. And if you can make it elsewhere, fine, we'll be fine. You can go and make that money somewhere else, but like, we won't suffer from having let you go. And so far they kind of haven't.

A little interested, you know, a Jeremy Stevens homecoming fight in Des Moines. A good, good friend of mine is from Des Moines. And I will be interested to ask him and be like, what do you think the, the hometown love are at people in Des Moines? Are they sitting around me like, finally Jeremy Stevens is coming home. We get a chance to go watch him or are they being like, Hey, I was going to go because it was a UFC event and then you hear like, Oh, this guy. Oh, sure.

Okay. I mean, I think he's been like living and training in San Diego for a long time. But yeah, but they'll go, Hey, when Bruce Bover goes, yeah, it's going to be fucking crazy, man. Did they just pay him for that? Like, I guess my, my top process is what's the UFC's move here? Like, are they blocking BKFC?

Like, are they like, maybe they could do some with this guy. We need to nip this in the bud. Or are they like, we need one in seven of his last voice to get back in here against Mason Jones, because you know, people want to know what Jeremy Steven's going to do in this lightweight division it seems now. I don't think there's any talk inside the UFC offices where they're like, listen, we got to do something about BKFC. They're, they're coming for too big a slice of the pie.

We can't have it. What could we do to halt their momentum? I don't think that that's happening. I mean, I think the credit to BKFC have it. What can we do to halt their momentum? I don't think that that's happening. I mean, I think the credit to BKFC, I think that they have managed to do a lot with what they have both in terms of like the fighters they have and the concept that they have, like they have really built something there. And that's hard to do, but it's also, if you were going to do something in

the combat sports space, that's, I don't even want to say competing with the UFC because it's not, but is getting some of the UFC fans. I think BKFC has shown us that the way to do it is not as another MMA organization, not the UFC, but less so, but as something that is a completely different thing, but has some enough similarities and enough of the guys, you know, from the thing. And plus, you know how MMA fighters are. They are crazy tough guys. You go and you tell some crazy tough guys like, guys, you know, from the thing. And plus, you know how MMA fighters are. They are crazy tough guys.

You go and you tell some crazy tough guys like, Hey, you know, it would be rad. You know, it would be some real tough guys stuff for you to do is have a bare knuckle boxing match and they go hell yeah. You don't think I'd do that? You don't think I'd bare knuckle fight a motherfucker? Yeah. They're like, Oh, I'd love to be able to say that I was in a bare knuckle box. Honestly, the biggest obstacle for some of those guys that, that when I've

talked to them is how many of them will say something like, I would love to go to a BKFC at some point, my wife won't let me, my, my wife said, absolutely not. That's a bigger obstacle than those guys not wanting to do it. I'll tell you that. Oh, like to be fair, like you're right. And I think we were singing their praises after that. What's the name? The Wells Fargo Center. Is it there in Philadelphia? Like that looked, the lads are attitude.

They said it was fucking crazy. Like they said, it wasn't even like they were support, like kind of like the Des Moines, Iowa conversation, Iowa, sorry, conversation we were having. Like as soon as people were hearing like this guy's from Philly, they would lose their mind. But really it was just a load of people there being like, just spray violence all over my body and let me leave in a couple of hours, which sounds like a pretty good time to me, Ben. I'm not going to lie to you. Yeah.

You know, I've been to a couple of BKFC events. I went to their very first event in Wyoming, uh, in Cheyenne, Wyoming, because basically Wyoming was the only state that would regulate it at the time. I remember having a really interesting conversation too with the dude who was in charge of whatever passed for the state athletic commission there and he was just essentially like, hey, we'll do whatever. I want to make sure, get this word out in your article, like we will do whatever kind of weird events people want to have, like bring it to, bring it to Wyoming. Uh, and then I went to one that they did in Great Falls, Montana here, where they have done several in Great Falls. They've been kind of smart

about isolating a few areas where, you know, if you can go there, you have some local people who fight on these and then you build a little bit of an awareness locally so that people remember having gone or people have heard, oh, yeah, these guys went to a bare-knuckle boxing match down at the fairgrounds. Oh, it's coming back in May. Yeah, sure. Let's go. I heard it was a good time, you know, and that, that works as a way to just, you

know, kind of the pro wrestling model sort of coming back through these same cities over and over again, and it is a different kind of environment. It is, those are different kinds of fights to watch. You, you go, you see a lot of blood. You also see quick fights, you know, it's, it's a lot more like watching guys have a fencing match kind of, you know, cause it doesn't take much. It's you, you see a flurry of punches. You're not even sure you saw one land and then somebody's down or somebody's

cut and they're bleeding and a lot of one round or two round fights in that, that's kind of easy to sell to a crowd who, like you said, they just want to go see some violence on a Saturday night. Yeah. Like it's like every martial art has people roaring this, like you know what they say, like be first, be first. Like in fucking Baron Oakley, if you're first, you know what they say? Like be first, be first. Like, you're in Jiu-Jitsu, in fucking Baron Oakle, if you're first, you're probably winning, dude.

I'm here with Star. Ah! The fucking bloke is just dead. You know what I'm saying? It's crazy. I do know, I want to take a special moment to shout out the success that the big homie Ben Rothwell has had over there in BKFC.

Cause not only, you know, he's always been a big scary dude. You put that guy in a bare knuckle boxing match. It's a nightmare for absolutely. You see that guy coming out there. He's got like, you know, especially now he's just covered in body hair. Uh, he's, I know your pain Ben. He's out there as a monster of a man and he's gotten really good at bare knuckle boxing. Like there's somebody who, some of these guys we see, they go in there and they

just are kind of like, yeah, I can box man. I've, I've boxed, uh, coming up either. I've had some pro boxing matches or I boxed as part of my MMA training. I'll go in there and I'll just kind of do that. And Ben Rothwell is actually really smart about how he's done it, where he has developed a style that works for that. And you can see it's a huge advantage just to know what a bare knuckle boxing match is actually going to be like, what works in that and what doesn't.

And he's really built a style for that. And has had a ton of success. The question is like, who can BKFC get to actually put in there that'll make a big fight with him now. And I heard, you know, Conor McGregor was out there saying like, we're going to sign Fador. And I was like, I hate how much I would love to watch love and hate to watch a Ben Rothwell versus Fador.

Cause Ben Rothwell would murder Fador at this point in a bare knuckle boxing match. I, there's a part of me that would die inside, but there's also a part of me that would be super happy for Ben Rothwell to see him get to go out there and get a win over Fador. They were talking about Mark W Mark Hunt as well, right? Oh yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, see, terrifying. It's terrifying. It's not even right, dude. I will watch it. I will. What's wrong with us? I'm fucking excited just thinking about Mark Hunt and Ben Rodwell.

I was like, actually, you know what? I had some like trauma with bare knuckle boxing because I watched Artem Lobov in his final fight. He fought like a silver medalist Olympic boxer in a Russian promotion where they just had fucking hay bales. The ring was just hay bales. Oh yeah. I remember this now.

Yeah. And he was left slumped up against the thing. And like, it just, I was like, fuck, man, this is just such a brutal way for it all to end, of course, big court day upcoming for Artem Lobov. So it might end a bit better for it all to end. Of course, big court day upcoming for Ratton Loboff. So it might end a bit better for him and a litigation battle over the ownership of proper 12, which is going on for a couple of months. But that's for another podcast, ladies and gentlemen, Ben, you're off to Paris.

Is there any goals here? Like, I wonder, like, you know, do you have a like when I lay the lovely line, when I brought the lovely line to Paris, she was like, I'm going to get a berry. You know, I was like, I'm going to drink 85 Absinthe cocktails and see where my body goes with this. Do you have any goals you have for your trip? Uh, you know, I want to see some of them paintings. They got, I don't know if you know this, PZ, they got, they got some

of those paintings over there. You're right. That's it's where, it's where they keep the art, I'm told is in Paris. Uh, so I want to go, I want to see some of that. I want to see that, the big tower they have. Oh yeah, big one. That's one, I mean, I'm going to tell you right now, I'm not going to be one of those people that stands in line for some part of that experience.

I want to, I could see it from afar. It doesn't even have to be that close. Let me take a picture with it in the background and good enough. Uh, also, um, I'm, I'm a, I'm a croissant guy. I don't know if you know this about me. I'm a croissant guy. And so I feel like if I'm right there in the beating heart of it, let's see, let's see what your croissant game is like.

Let's see if it's, you know, I would expect it to be the best croissant that anyone could possibly have in the world, but that's, those are high expectations I'm going in. So, uh, we'll see if they can match that. It's like the WrestleMania of croissants over there. Yeah. Coming off the top ropes with fucking croissants in Paris. I'll tell you that one. It's a, oh, we have a three super chats.

Can you, can we stick around and do some super chats, Ben? I know where your flight, the PJ is probably just pulling up outside your Montana residence there. If you can just, we just wait for a couple of more minutes. What we got Jordan. Pizzi, can you explain the rules of Gaelic football? All right. I thought this was a general conversation about Gaelic football.

Um, no, they've brought in some new rules this year and I don't know what the fuck they are. No, they've brought in some new rules this year and I don't know what the fuck they are. All I know is every morning I turn on my sports shows and there's a man who manages one of the counties going, it's destroying the game. I don't know why they've done it. I mean, how many lads do you need back there? It's just destroying the game. Why are we doing this?

There was nothing wrong. This isn't, this isn't Gaelic football. This is just some hybrid of soccer and rugby at this stage, which in fact is, is pretty much what it is. But let's, let's, let's get into that. Great to watch. Oh yeah. I'm a Dubs fan, obviously didn't really have that much success in my own career.

Back in the day, I had a few player, a few mates that played for County. Big, big thing. If you ever come into Ireland, go and see a Gaelic football or, well, actually preferably hurling, if you can go to a hurling game. Absolutely tremendous. Um, but yes, I cannot explain the rules, but hope I've given you a brief. Outline of what it is. I don't think I did, but what was your hurling career like hurling career?

Not good. Uh, my dad's, my dad's hurling career. Like he, he was good at football. And the first time he ever played hurling, he was just like swinging the stick back. The ball's coming to him. He's like, I'm going to fight this. Pulls the hurl back, breaks a dude's jaw behind him who was coming in to try and tackle him. Just came around.

I have a friend, one of my good friends, Peter Callahan. He was captain of Dublin hurling and Dublin team at under 21. This guy's a behemoth. Six foot five and a donnas of a man. And he did, he did like three crew shits in a year and just ended his career. But his hands, he has these massive shovel hands and his fingers are like, they go off in three different directions from just going up to catch balls and just getting hit with the stick across my hands.

But like if they break down, they just sell a table to another, if they break the finger, they just sell a table to another two fingers break the finger, they just sell a table to an order two fingers. So like lads are just running around like the penguin. It's such a fast sport. That was unbelievable. I believe they say it's a, a mixture of hockey and murder is how they describe it to people. That's, that's the one to go to.

What else we got Jordan? Idiot will fight max for the BMF title, but what's Justin going to do then? I mean, I wouldn't, I don't think that's beyond the UFC. Honestly. Well, it doesn't really make sense to me that cause he just fought him for the UFC featherweight title. Oh yeah. Sure.

Of course. So it's like, why do it again? If we're just for like a ceremonial title, like why leave the featherweight division just to do what is essentially a featherweight fight? I mean, it's, if the UFC misses this opportunity to make Ilja versus Islam, I'll be mad. I'll be mad. And it'll be, you know, some of those huge super bite opportunities that

they missed the opportunity to make when they could have, you know, we never got GSP and Anderson Silva. We didn't get Francis Ngannou and John Jones. You have it right here. Ilya Toporya and Islam Al-Khattab. You just, just tap it into the net. You don't even really have to do anything with this one. And then plus it's like, what, what is it going to be the obstacle that you

don't want to pay more money for it? You're still going to make a ton of money. And the OZ knows that they know there's no realistic world where we pay Ilya Toporya so much and, and Islamahatchev so much to do this fight that the event is not profitable for us. Can you even imagine? It's laughable. Like they, they're going to be making a huge profit no matter what they do. So why are we quibbling over like, do we have to make a boatload of money?

Or could we just make a carload of money? Like just make the fight while you can. If you could only pick one, which one would you take though, between the two big fights they could make Tom and Jones, not Tom Jones, the singer, but Tom Asimov, Tom Jones, John Jones, or Ilya Fiyazlan, which one would you pick? It would have to be John Jones versus Gas Hands Tom for me, just because you need that fight to maintain some sort of heavyweight title legitimacy. A division, right?

At this stage. Yeah, like you, cause it's like, why did we do this? Why did we do Tom Aspinall as the interim champ? He's going to defend the interim title. Meanwhile, you have an actual heavyweight champ. He is talking about fights that are, seem to only interest him and you have an opportunity to make this big fight. And if you don't do it, what happens?

John Jones, this retires as heavyweight champion. You promote Tom Aspinall to heavyweight champ, like full heavyweight champ without ever having a fight about it. You lose a lot of that, that shine of the belt at that point. Like you need to have that fight just so we know what to make of it going forward. I agree. I'll take, I'll just take one UFC. Like, I mean, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll be angry about the other one.

I'll, I'll give you a lot of shit for it, but I'll secretly be like, just as long as you get one of them done. I'll be happy. Do we have a final one, Jordan? UFC pay-per-view overpriced. Is it an issue in future? Ben, that one's for you, like a pay-per-view here. I think you have to pay for four of them every year and it's like 25 quid.

So, man, we're talking 80 quid over here, man. And there's one a month, basically. Yes, the price is an issue. I think that that is especially something that will be interesting to see what happens with it with the new TV rights deal, right? Because it worked for ESPN plus when ESPN plus is still kind of new. It was still a new streaming service. You needed to add content to the library, but also you needed a way to get fans to

sign up for it and then just forget about it to not think about it as, Hey, do I want to be canceling it and then not. Plug plugging back in until there's something I want to watch. And so the, it really worked for what they were trying to do to have the UFC because the UFC saying, Hey, we got all these sort of just filler events in between the pay-per-views, but also you have to have this service to buy the pay-per-view we won't even take your money. It's crazy. We will not let you pay us for this thing unless you are a subscriber.

And so that really worked for both sides there. If, if the UFC stays with ESPN, I don't know if ESPN will still make the same calculation. Uh, we heard that the UFC thought ESPN was raising prices faster than they would have liked that they thought like, okay. And it was just every year on, you know, you could kind of set your watch by here comes the price gouging over at ESPN or the UFC. And so if they go somewhere else, maybe somebody will look at the pay-per-view piece just because I think a lot of people have been waiting for pay-per-view

to stop being a viable model in the streaming age, because I did a long story once when the athletic, remember when Dana White was talking about how he's going after the pirates? Yes. You know, he doesn't talk about that at all anymore, but he was out there being like, we're watching their houses. We're waiting. We know we got guys watching them. We're just waiting for them to turn it on on Saturday night.

And we were getting these guys every event. I'm going to get one and I'm going to make him cry in court. He said, this guy is crying. We have him. And I'm like, what is this name revealed or whatever, you know? Well, and then people would ask him, they'd be like, all right, did you get the streamer? And he'd be like, he didn't turn it on. He knew he was scared.

He was too scared to turn it on. And meanwhile, you talk to fans. We did a big fan survey and I remember so many people I talked to were like, I haven't missed a UFC event in 10 years. I have paid for zero of them. Like some people it's just, they, they're like, I don't, I'm shocked anybody ever pays for a UFC event. I watched them all.

I watch all the ones I want to watch and I've never paid. It's so easy. They have not been able to really do anything about piracy. And when I was doing this story and talking to some anti-piracy experts, and they were kind of explaining why it's so difficult and where the holes in the net are that are going to be kind of impossible to close at this point. And they were like the biggest reasons people pirate stuff. One is cost and two is availability.

And it's like the UFC availability is not so much an issue anymore, but the cost people are looking at me and like, if I only want to watch one fight, I'm not paying 80 bucks for this thing. And if I can find these streams online, even if it's not terribly reliable, even though sometimes they crap out on me or they don't look great, I'm not paying if you're not offering me a full product that I want to see. And that's what we've seen with some of these events, right? Like if you're not offering a main card where I feel like I got to see every

fight on this card, if you're offering it where there's one fight, I want to see one other where I'm kind of like, I could take it or leave it. You're not offering them enough value for people. That's what's going to get them to buy the pay-per-view is they're like, Hey, I don't want to be thinking about finding a new stream after every single fight. If I actually care about them all, if I don't care about them all, I'll hit up my buddy in the Twitter DM half an hour before the main event starts and be like, do you have a link?

And that's what a lot of people are doing. Well, if there's ever a reason to improve the quality of pay-per-views, Ben just gave it to you, UFC, Ben, we're going to miss you, man. You're going to, you're going away for a few weeks, right? No, just a little over a week, but I, you know, I won't be around. I'll be emotional. Yeah. So I'll let you know when I'm back, uh, assuming I make it back, assuming

that don't, uh, die of a croissant overdose while I'm over there. But, uh, yeah, I'm gonna have to abuse him all by myself about him losing top of the table. And he's gonna, he's just too smart. And you, you could, you could have one of them Jedi mind bells up with intelligence with him where I'll just be like, oh, okay, fuck you then. You know what I mean? That I'll have nowhere else to go. I think I'm just going to start following his picks.

And it's like, he's, he's been doing so much better than me. I don't know, man. I'm following Drake Riggs. Yeah. I'm doing my Drake Riggs previews and, uh, trying to, trying to improve, step by step, I'm climbing up that ladder. When I learn, as they say, as the great one said, um, lads, we love you very much crackheads, um, I hope you have a blessed weekend, um, don't go chasing the snakes

out of the own, of your own patch of the world because I don't know the method he used to do that and it would be deeply, deeply wrong of me to suggest that you too should chase the snakes out. Only St. Patrick could do that. God bless Ireland. God bless all of you. God bless Ben Folk's flying off to gay Paris to eat all the croissants, to drink all the absinthe and vicariously live as Oscar Wilde

did in his final days in the Latin Quarter there. What a life it could be. Nina Simone and all these fantastic people. Anyway, I'm rambling now. I love you very much. Have a great weekend. I'll see you on Monday on the Ari Elwany Show. Love yous. Police.