The Ariel Helwani Show - Rafael Fiziev, Natalya Neidhart & Lou DiBella in studio, more

Episode Date: March 11, 2025

Ariel and the gang kick off the show by debating Uncrowned's latest pound-for-pound MMA rankings update following Alex Pereira's loss to Magomed Ankalaev (02:36).Longtime boxing promoter Lou DiBella stops by in-studio to discuss the state of the sweet science, how TKO's new boxing venture will change the industry, why the current system is broken and more (10:56).WWE superstar Natalya Neidhart joins in-studio to discuss her emotional WWE journey, becoming the women's GOAT, how Triple H changed the company, John Cena's heel turn and more (1:18:51).Rafael Fiziev discusses his short-notice loss to Justin Gaethje at UFC 313, why he's mulling a featherweight move and more (2:20:05).

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Err-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r- And 25, hello again everyone. I sure hope you're doing well. It's great to be here on a lovely, a balmy Tuesday in New York City. March 11th is a date that will live in infamy for a lot of people, but if you're Ariel Hawani, it's actually a date that you celebrate. We all know five years ago, March 11th, everything shut down around the world.

There was the beginning of the pandemic. The NBA shut down, Rudy Gobert, all that stuff. Who was it? Tom Hanks over in Australia. A crazy, crazy time. And wow, can't believe it's been five years, half a decade. But for myself, I always remember March 11th, ingrained in my brain, etched in my memory.

March 11th, 1995, I visited Madison Square Garden for the first time. And my parents got me tickets at the beginning of the season, and so I was counting down the days to March 11th, March 11th, March 11th. And so that date, always in my brain. The Knicks played these supersonics. I was sitting in the 400ss maybe like five rows from the top and I got to see Patrick Ewing in person for the first time I remember thinking to myself this is the most beautiful sight these eyes have ever seen I dreamed of the moment I got a Charles Oakley jersey a great a great day and now here I am what March 11th 1995 I think that's 30 years later. Is that right? My math is correct? Yeah. Look at me. The Big Apple. I was just a young kid from Canada with a dream.

For me? Yeah. And now look at me. I've got the Empire freaking state building as my backdrop. The Canadian dream. Still alive and well. Yesterday was a great show. Thank you to everyone who tuned in. I hope you enjoyed it. Post 313 PPV show. Dylan Danis was in some kind of form. I was going to say fine form, but I'm not sure if that is a 100% accurate. But it was a good time.

It had by all. In fact, a little bit mad at Dylan because he clearly didn't want to leave. And as a result made me miss my son's soccer game at MetLife stadium. I got there literally just as the poot poot poot. And I was like, are you kidding me? Dylan strikes again, but it was a great, it was a great thrill.

And I was able to, uh, that sounds exactly. It sounds like he actually said that. It's unbelievable. Oh, wow. But I said, Hey, Walter, can I get your autograph? Like I was able to, uh, that sounds exactly, it sounds like he actually said that. It's unbelievable. Oh, wow. But I said, Hey, Walter, can I get your autograph? Like I was hanging over the thing. It was very fun.

So it was a fun evening for the, uh, Helwani families and today or family. And today is going to be a great show, uh, here on the program because, uh, well, as you know, on Tuesdays, we like to play too. Later in the day, we'll be on the Dazon boxing YouTube channel and we'll have our the Dizone Boxing YouTube channel and we'll have our guy Ade Oladipo join us for a brand new edition of the Ariel and Ade Boxing Hour.

Virgil Ortiz Jr. will stop by and we'll talk about a whole host of things from the world of boxing on the program today. We continue to talk about the the uncrowned section the Venn diagram that is combat sports right now The Hall of Fame promoter Lou DiBella will join us in about seven or so minutes to talk about everything He's very opinionated. He's very outspoken. If you've never heard Lou DiBella talk about boxing, please stick around. It's a It's it's it's a roller coaster ride. It's it's it's a riveting experience He doesn't hold back. He doesn't filter himself. And I can't wait to hear what he thinks about this upcoming new venture from TKO and Turquoise Shake.

So he'll join us at around 1.10. At around 2.10, we're going to be joined by arguably the greatest women's professional wrestler of all time, the third generation trailblazer pioneer, an unbelievable competitor who actually is a six-time Guinness World Record holder. Take a listen to this. Most pay-per-view appearances, most matches, most wins, most WrestleMania appearances, and most Raw and SmackDown matches by a female wrestler.

She is Natalia Nightheart, the daughter of the late great Jim the Anvil Nightheart, the niece of the great Bret the Hymnman Heart and Owen Heart, of course, and the only female from that incredible family to follow in the footsteps of Stu, Brett, Owen, Jim, Davey Boy, and the list goes on and on. So she'll join us in studio. She has a fun announcement to make and I can't wait to pick her brain on all things professional wrestling. And then we'll close out this particular program with a conversation with

Rafael Faziv, who of course was in action this past Saturday, lost a close one that I maintain he still won. I still believe that against Justin Gaethje but what a performance and it was great to have him back in the cage and see him back in the cage after being out for about a year and a half so there's the lineup over at uncrowned.com right now we have just released our brand new pound-for-pound rankings as far as mixed martial arts are concerned. Drumroll please. Yep. Yeah. Asam Al-Khacheff still number one. Ilya Taporye now number two.

Murab moves up a slot. Pantoja moves up a slot, Jurgis 2.0c moves up two slots, Aspinol 2, Magomed or as he's calling himself now, Mohammed, Big Ankalaev goes from unranked to seventh, John Jones down two slots, eighth. How about that site? Alex Pera down six slots, and Francis and gun who down one? tenth We have women's as well no real activity there, right? I don't think so Yes, no, they know cool. But anyway, there you have it

Not sure if I agree with all those but I think how many members of our team here on the program are part of the rankings We've got GC Rick just me and Rick on the panel. No Frank, huh? Frankie denied the opportunity Wow Frank you actually abstained I did first time in your life Well, have you noticed that? Yeah exactly first time have you noticed that we do the the picks for pay-per-views? yes, yes, I've heard about it to be on the The last rung of that ladder. So this is last place what does that mean last run and I don't think during didn't help him this week are you threatening to quit no no no he's in last place I don't know why he said wrong he's in my ladders not have a

wrong along the way on the bottom they do we're not arguing that every pay-per-view Frank has the least correct yeah yeah he's the time for me to tag myself in yes do it I do What do we need you dare me do it to become become a picker? I'm kind of itchy these days To the top I got itchy knuckles honestly I want to say that I'm the man wearing the crown right now But it's actually one man in the hat. No I'm gonna say that I'm the man wearing the crown right now, but it's actually one man in the hat. Chuck's not in all of this. No, incorrect.

Oh. Incorrect. It is actually Drake Riggs. Drake Riggs takes over. Riggs takes over. Wow. What do you have a perfect five and a weekend? I think he was four and one.

Wow. Shout out to Drake. He has overtaken Chuck who was the leader from all the way at the start in 2024. Chuck was at a bad weekend. Chuck was like 15 and one going into this week. I mean, we all kind of got washed. I don't know, like it was not great.

No one asked me. Listen. Who was your last pick? You into this week. I mean, we all kind of got washed. I don't know, like it was not great. No one asked me. Listen, who was your last pick? You talked to Uttergird, DDP, Emperor by Kale. I actually tweeted, yeah, Emperor by Kale. And then- Whitaker before that? No, no, I had another one that I screwed up on. Like how you referenced-

I picked DDP, did I screw one up? I don't think any of us can talk honestly. I mean, the PoliPals have lost like nine straight. I got washed last weekend in bets, you know. Tough sledding. Everyone likes a comeback. We don't have a crystal ball over here. Nah, it's tough.

MMA picks are tough. Do want to mention, I was just talking about Big Onk. He did land back home in Dagestan. What a hero's welcome for the big man, the brand new UFC light heavyweight champion. Take a look at this scene, courtesy of our friends over at Red Corner MMA. Look at that crowd. The aura grows for Big Onk. I mean, the last time I saw that many people at a Dagestani airport. Well, no, it's great. You know, this is the kind of stuff that you love to see.

No, by the way, this never happens for an American champion. You ever notice that? American champion comes home, like they fly into Colorado, they fly into God knows where, Phoenix. There's like three people there. Why is that? Is it because there's so many American champions out there? Yeah, I just think the amount of it. and like we focus on sports that aren't combat.

Right. But that is great. And he did a bunch of media and he said negotiations already underway for the rematch. So we had Yuri on yesterday. He had some harsh words. We'll talk to Jan Bechowicz tomorrow on the program. We'll get his take on what transpired. And obviously he has a massive fight coming up in about 11 days time against Carlos Ulberg. I'm really looking forward to that fight. That feels like a gigantic one in the light heavyweight division. Looks like they're going to go in that direction. It's the right call. It's the expected call.

And I'm wondering when it's going to happen. Is it going to happen before October? It seemed like he wanted Abu Dhabi. Let's see. Now, also yesterday we had a few face-offs. I just want to show one of them for now. We'll talk more about these later in the day and on the Ariel and Adi program. But did you see Tiafuma Lopez and Arnold Barbosa Jr. get into it? This is in Los Angeles, the second leg of the Times Square Card Tour and they go back and forth. I must say this press conference infinitely,

infinitely more interesting and fun than the one in New York this time last week. Everyone brought it. There was a lot of heat between Garcia and Romero and there's the swipe. Did he connect? I'm not quite sure, but there's the swipe, there's the ring belt, and there's Barbosa and Tiafema Lopez having to be broken up. But great stuff from Garcia, great stuff from Devin Haney. Bill Haney was all fired up, and so we are inching closer to that card. A man who knows a thing or two about the New York fight scene will be our first guest of the day in studio.

He is a Hall of Fame inductee for the International Boxing Hall of Fame, and he's a very, very a thing or two about the New York fight scene, will be our first guest of the day in studio. He is a Hall of Fame inductee for the International Boxing Hall of Fame back in 2020, International Women's Boxing Hall of Fame inductee in 2024, former HBO Sports Head of Programming, the creator of boxing after dark. And in addition to those ventures, he is the owner of the minor league baseball team the Richmond Flying Squirrels whose new season kicks off in about 30 days time they're actually building a brand new ballpark over there the Carmax Park it's under construction right now he's the legendary Lou DiBella who's gonna tell it to us like it is about everything going on in the wild and wacky world of boxing here. He comes the man himself

Appreciate make yourself comfortable welcome. Do you want to hang it up somewhere? How are you sir? I'm all right, bro. Yeah, you know Running to double a baseball teams building a stadium in Richmond all right bro yeah you know running to double-a baseball teams building a stadium in Richmond opening days a couple of weeks away really busy the flying squirrels yeah I started my process I sort of saw a lot of what was happening right now coming yeah and my process of allocating my time differently began a few years ago so so right now I mean I'm pretty much heavily invested in baseball but you still Amy the Bell Entertainment is

still around I still exist and both this still, I mean, the Bell Entertainment is still around. I still exist, yeah. Can't boss this fight. But I mean, yeah, can't boss this fighting, but let's face realities. Most promoters, as we know them, are going away. And, you know, I mean, at some point, I'll make the transition, I'll advise people if I feel like it.

You know, it's interesting because, we'll get into our conversation, this'll organically come out. No, I mean, we're in it. But it's interesting to watch the big boys now get relegated to what they made everybody else which were middlemen And right now make no mistake about it The major promoters have been middlemen for the last couple of years because let me ask you a question You're the interviewer, but I won't ask you the question. Yeah, please please who's been the most major promoter in boxing over the last couple of years?

I think Eddie Hearn is the best Who has been the most powerful promoter in boxing? Oh, I mean, Turkey. Correct. Yeah. Stop. So I thought maybe it was a trick question. No, that's the point.

Well, technically, he's not a promoter, right? Oh, no. He's a promoter, bro. OK. He doesn't have promoter's license. Who gives a fuck about a promoter's license? Stop with promoter's licenses. OK.

Who gives a fuck? Well, old school would say. No, no, I don't give a shit about old school. Old school's gone. Okay, who gives a fuck? Well, I would say no No, I give shit about old school schools gone. Okay. Okay. So how do you feel about all this? I don't give a shit I think you're very passionate about it. You tweet about it. I tweet about it Um, it was inevitable and and Dana will tell you I've been in is he like for we're not close or anything But you know texts and conversations over the course of the last X number of years, particularly after the WWE merger and the formation of TKF, this was inevitable, right? And frankly, Turkey and Turkey making the four major guys,

all his little peons, it made this much more doable. And now you have a company capitalized on the stock exchange to 26, 27 million, depending on how you measure it, with UFC alone capitalized 11 billion, 26, 27 billion, 11 billion, and economically supported by the deepest pockets in the world.

I mean, they're pretty much well set up for this. So when you found out about this last week and it was the worst kept secret. It was not a secret. Okay. Your initial reaction was what? Inevitable? Inevitable and that I think it couldn't be at a better time. Why is that? I mean come on. Like you have first of all everything. The environment in this country right? I mean who's more in with the government right now than Dana and Joe Rogan? Just stretch that out to Nikan and Ari.

When Ari starts talking a couple of weeks ago about the Ali Act, that was bad law, that said to me the Ali Act doesn't have a lot of time left. And maybe, by the way, I think the Aliak, parts of the Aliak should not be repealed. You helped write the Aliak. Yes I did, with Ron McKay who was a friend of mine. And I helped write the Aliak.

But there are parts of the Aliak that no longer make any sense. Like what? I mean, why can't a promotion have its own belts? Well, why are we protecting the ratings organizations? Okay, so why did you put that in there? Why were you a part of the process? I mean, it really wasn't, that wasn't the main thrust of the act, but it was trying

at that point in time when they went, look, that was being written at a time period where boxing was, as it usually is, totally dodge city. Which is one of the reasons why the whole system has to come down. And the greatest reason I think that Dana and Nick and the TKO people with Turkey's money have a tremendous chance to pull this off, first of all, Turkey's already the most powerful promoter in the business, right?

So the second that this new company starts functioning, they are the biggest promoter in this business. The other promoters have never been willing to work with one another, including, I mean, I was part of the system. By the way, I haven't had a, my life's been miserable, like, not miserable, but it's been very difficult to be as successful as I've been with no platform,

which I've had, I haven't had a platform since all these exclus exclusive deals started happening. So to some extent when Eddie and others, Aram, said I was a middleman, to some extent they're right, but what are they now? They're middlemen, and what have they been for the last couple of years? Middlemen, and you don't think Turkey saw that?

You think that, you know, Turkey's a smart guy, man. Like, you know, you could say whatever you want, your feelings about Saudis being very active in sports, you could say, put all that aside. The man's a fan, and here's where he has a great advantage. He's a fan, he believes in quality control, and he believes the system is broken. Do you believe it's broken?

I've been saying it for 20-something years. I've been saying it since I was an HBO executive. I've been frankly the only voice in the whole industry of self criticism for most of the last 20 years. That's a fact. I mean in fact Eddie is wild bro. He's wild. What do you mean? I just saw an interview with Eddie saying that I'm show because I'm the greatest pro-dart. Look Eddie's gifted like Don King was gifted. Eddie is Don King 2025. In the bombastic personality, I'll never be as tall as Eddie, I'll never be as good looking as Eddie. Eddie is like a celebrity in the UK.

Eddie has a great sense of PT Barnum-esque promotion. That's his great self. But he's sitting there going, I'm chill because I'm confident in my own company But what I will take issue with is people saying boxing is broken go fuck yourself. Ed, you know, it's broken You know, it's broken Why do you think he says that because he's the same reason all these guys have been supporting the system It's made them wealthy by the way, you know Eddie Eddie's a little lost right now

He and one interview is talking about retirement, in another interview he's talking about I'm the best in the world. I think he's considering retirement eventually, and I also think he is one of the best in the world. I don't take that away from him. I mean, they're gifted people. Look, Eddie's a gifted guy. Aaron was a gifted guy.

It takes panache, it takes a very thick skin, it takes some brains to be able to some survive in the Wild West that boxing has been there are talented people Sprinkled all over the place, but we never had our shit together. We've been a shit show. It's completely self-evident got to remember I I Was called the czar of boxing for a decade come closer to the mic if you don't mind I remember I was called the czar of boxing for a decade. Come closer to the mic if you don't mind. Well, I'm gonna let you know. Yeah, you can move it, do whatever you want.

I was called, when I was at HBO, I was controlling their budget. We were maybe overstepping our bounds as a TV network a little bit. How so? Well, not, I mean, not really overstepping our bounds, but operating differently than anyone ever had before. Because the sport is lawlessness.

And I used our budget to make the fights I wanted to make. There was a period of time that Aram and I didn't talk for a year, writing by any of his fights. Because he didn't like the idea I was making matches. Well guess what, I was paying for them. I love the fact that Turkey makes the matches he wants to make.

He pays insane money on the highest level, and he's made certain matches that, because he wanted to see them and paid money that was completely not, in my mind, from a pure business standpoint, justifiable. But he kept boxing alive the last couple years. But I don't believe he ever did it with an intent of leaving this system in place.

What's business 101, bro? If you wanna take out some people or make change, what's the easiest way to make change? Take the powers that are, make them beholden to you, buy them, in effect, and you're in a much better position to defeat them or defeat the existing system. So do you think this was always the plan? Yeah.

Come in, do business with everyone. You can't make, here's another way that they're operating in a matter that I think is intelligent. They're clearly, they're not gonna, people keep talking about league, league, league. It's not a league. It's not a league. It's a promotion.

Yeah, but it's a promotion in the Dana White, UFC promotion. Nick Khan, UFC, WWE sense. Yes. Which can work. It's not a promotion in the boxing sense. Correct, correct. With every man for himself, bro Right no one giving a fuck about the future of your sport with no one reinvestment being made with no long-term game plan

Right if they want this to work they don't have to be concerned with putting other people out They don't have to be they're not gonna shut I can't shut down the BC the BA the IBF to be overnight They're not gonna cause Eddie's a't shut down the BC, the BA, the IBF, the BO overnight. They're not gonna cause, Eddie's a talented guy. Eddie'll find some secondary place. See, what makes me think Eddie might retire, and honestly, on a human level, I get this, because in my mind and in my heart,

I've been in a process of sort of disengaging from the sport for a while. Eddie doesn't wanna do play anything to be number two or three or four. Like when Eddie came to America with the Dazon money, he was gonna create a UFC. He was gonna become the UFC, I'm gonna use my giant budget.

Well, he went back to England, as much as success and money he's made, as much success as he had, he went back to England with his tail between his legs. You think so? Oh yeah, well you think what, you think that matchroom took over American boxing? No, but-

What's American boxing right now? What happened to the Matrim USA and the Zone offices and the big building skyscraper down the road? What happened to that? I mean, how many subs are there in the Zone America right now? You know? No. Neither do I, neither does anyone.

You think it's a lot? What is a lot? How many people you think really watched Bevolyan Peturbeva in North America? No, it's- How many people watched the Heavyweight Championship of the world in the middle afternoon in North America, right? Okay, these are rhetorical questions. You know the answers We don't have to debate it right because the reality is you can't sit here and say the sports healthy Is it fair to say it's healthy overseas? It's healthy. No, it's not maybe not here. Okay, okay

Okay, you came midday. They're talking about it like we talk about It's healthy overseas? It's healthy in the UK? No, it's not. Maybe not here in the UK? UK, maybe. UK? UK midday they're talking about it like we talk about the NFL. But where man? Boxer has a deal in the sky. Right. And everything is streaming. I mean is it okay?

Yeah, it's way healthier. Wembley Stadium, 98,000. With Anthony, there's about two stars with the boxers. Sure, sure, sure, sure. Here's another one. Who can walk down the street in boxing and get harassed everywhere it's not that many people sure and who are the main the

megastars in boxing fair to say canelo number one yeah probably Joshua number two Tyson Fury Joshua Tyson's recognizable well me I don't know you think I honestly probably think people six or one half a dozen yeah that's probably the biggest heavyweight fight you can make because it boxing is healthy in in UK also The Saudis are somewhat UK centric. Mm-hmm. That's where they all go to school. That's where they all go to school It's the same time zone. Yeah, basically roughly right Yeah, it's healthy in in England it's not in UK, but it's not particularly healthy in most of the world

I mean if you look back to boxing in 1985 1995 2005 it's weaker worldwide now than it's ever been 100% I mean it wasn't ABC was showing you know the fight of the century on a Monday night, right? Everything was you can't compare but I we got into a little thing I made the point that that when Eddie came over here, he was thinking, okay, all that, the zone money will allow me to be the guy

who creates something like UFC. You heard that same rhetoric when they had the initial press conference for PBC. Not from Al Haman, because Al doesn't talk. But the pundits, they could create something like, everyone who's ever had a relationship with the next person with money in boxing has thought about I'm gonna be the next UFC okay well you can't be the next UFC when there are five other major promoters you

can't be the next UFC when there are four ratings organizations way too many weight classes multiple champions per weight class, not only like a champion, but an interim champion, what the fuck that means, a super champion, a gold champion, everyone's got a belt. Well, when everyone has a belt, no one has a belt. Right, so why will these guys be different? Why will they have success when the others didn't? Because they're not gonna,

they're gonna ignore the existing system. Okay. The system of ratings organizations needed to be torn down a long time ago. One of the reasons why I am not a bigger promotional company over the course of years is that I've never been best friends with those organizations. I've been critical of them

since I was a television executive. How do you have not only four organizations, too many weight classes, multiple champions per weight class, how do your ratings completely differ almost? How are like different people rated all over the place? Most world champions of the major ratings organizations can walk down a street in Times Square

and no one knows who they are. They could walk down a street in Piccadilly Circus and no one knows who they are, that's a fact. So what do you think they'll do? They'll get rid of the Ali Act and say we're gonna have our own belt. I think the Ali Act will probably go. Do they need to get rid of the

Ali Act to like let this thing fly or can they do it with the Ali Act still in place? I don't know if they have to get rid of it. I don't know. I think it's a pretty good environment too. I think it makes it less common. the Ali act stops the promotion from having its own belt So don't you have to get rid of it first part of it has to be changed but I believe that part of it should be changed or can they get away with it with the ring though shouldn't be there needs to be a prohibition on coercion, right and and

No one should be forced to sign with anybody. And I think that there should still be some protection for that. But the idea, there's no reason in my mind that a promotion can't. Like why are we protecting ratings organizations? Why? Like I don't think a promotion, there should be any prohibition on a promotion

giving out its own belts. Why not, why? What's the problem? Is there a chance that some of these guys who have been enemies but over the past two years or so have been forced to work together say you know what they've been forced to work together What did they really have to do well the biggest events are better who like you think they had to really work hard promoting in? Saudi Arabia where did they just take big checks no no percent they were okay, so what did they really have to do? They were glorified managers like someone they couldn't get television or keep

quality television contracts. How many networks have you chased out of the business? Right? I mean, would a healthy boxing have celebrity boxing and Jake Paul boxing as big as it now is? Don't you think that that sort of filled the void that we sort of created? Right? Don't you think that that sort of filled the void that we sort of created? Mm-hmm, right? I mean the environment in general You can't fix boxing within the existing parameters

So when I hear Eddie do an interview and he says I'm chill, but don't I take issue with boxing's broken People care about all these belts, right? Well, yeah, the fighters care about belts But the fighters care about money more. And here's the reality, there's no middle class any longer. Most fighters are fighting below the poverty line. There are millions of fighters all around the world, literally like, when I say a million, there are fighters everywhere, right?

And a lot of them are inactive, a lot of them are fighting for free, a lot of them are fighting for money that you wouldn't even fathom how low it is. Fighters that are fighting in Africa and Asia, fighting for next to nothing. There is no middle class, fighters are poor. The average working class,

like lunch pail fighter is poor, right? And then even when you look at it, the guys that, some guys are getting super wealthy. Four promotional companies have made a lot of money, right? But if you look at what happened five years ago, Aram came and had his new ESPN deal. That's over. And he came to America, opened giant offices, created Matchroom USA. He still has to deal with his own. He's still a good promoter. He still has

some talent, but he didn't take anything over. And he basically went back and operated out of the UK. He didn't make it here in the way he thought it would. It wasn't transformative. And as soon as people got all these exclusive deals, what else happened? They didn't work with other people. They tried to create their own thing. And it became even a greater impediment.

How many times did you hear the old saying, the other side of the street, the other side of the street? Like that other side of the street. You destroyed your own business. You didn't make the big fights because you were operating your own company. It was every man for himself. And we sort of deserved to be here.

And I made money in the system also. I mean, to be honest, I was never big enough to change the system. I'll say this, there was a promoter summit 10, 15 years ago where everyone was in a room. And I prognosticated a lot of shit. I said HBO's not gonna stay in, Showtime's not gonna stay in,

we're not gonna be able to sustain the same kind of success we've had if we don't start working together. Honestly, working together to the point that we could create a television property with a promoter's association, self-govern, Dana and Nick and Turkey will self-govern. You've already seen Turkey governing,

it's been a little bit, you know, of I'm governing, but they're going to control their own thing. That's a tremendous, tremendous. When you said this at the summit, did people push back? Did they say you're crazy? Well, it was funny, a lot of people got it. The people that pushed back were the ones who were then the most successful, right?

But if you look at promotion, look at a lot of the companies that were significant a decade ago, very few were left. And so if it's so broken, if it's so in the dumps now, why are these smart men getting into this business? Because you could recreate it! Why didn't they get into UFC? Sure, but they bought it for $2 million. They were buying three letters back in 2000.

But you don't have to buy anyone right now. That's the joy. You don't have to buy anyone. By the way, the ratings organizations were all over Turkey. He wrote checks to the BC and the WBA. He created a tournament. They're having a Grand Prix.

A Grand Prix, whatever the tournament is. But he had no intention of of You know, he had no intention of keeping them in place I think Turkey understood and I by the way, I've led I've been led to believe this way I don't know the man I've talked have you ever met him. No, no, don't know that I know a lot of people that do I know a lot of people talk to him regularly I know from those people that he made it clear that he never believed the existing system was tenable. Mm-hmm He thought there were too many belts. He thought there were too many organizations

He thought I mean I think in the back of his head he knew That he needed to tear it down to build it up again That is what Dana has always said publicly. Yeah that the shit show that exists in boxing right now can't continue He used to call major boxing events, what do you call them, fire sales or going out of business sales? It's not wrong about that. In the sense that we've always been people

that basically made money grabs. There was never a strategy, a communal strategy to better the sport, to clean it up, get rid of bad decisions, remove judging from its connection to ratings organizations, stop paying ratings organizations to compete with one another, force them to create one organization so there's one champion per weight class.

When you all have your little individual though, exclusivity with a network, maybe you want as many belts as possible because everyone wants a belt. PBC wants belts, and Top Rank wants belts, and Matchroom wants belts, and Queensborough wants belts. And by the way, now that the four major promoters have something to worry about,

and the ratings organizations have something to worry about, there'll be a little bit more cooperation. They're not gonna all die overnight. How long do you think it takes for them to really get a stranglehold on this? Not, I mean, five years, maybe two to three before they establish themselves as clearly the most major promoter. I think they already are though because Turkey is. Turkey going into business with Dana and Nick, that's a lot of talent. You have, like I said earlier,

you have one of the richest countries in the world supporting a business capitalized at 25 to 27 billion dollars depending on who you talk to. They've done it already. They've self governed WWE and created a powerhouse. Yeah, there's AEW, there's other wrestling, but it's insignificant. I mean, you look at UFC. Yeah, there are other promotions.

Right now, they're probably weaker than they've ever been. Now, UFC may have some issues with Star Power or whatever, but they'll deal with them. And right now, they're in such a dominant position. They have no worries. Their value keeps growing. I mean, I watched the show the other night, man. What'd you think think you know I

You know I'm not I Was obsessed I was a little I was rooting for Pereira Oh Wow what a difference from from being on Sports Center many years ago debating Joe Rogan to now ordering the paper That was fucking 15 years ago. I know but you've come a long way It was so history, you know, maybe Joe Rogan has to I I, if I, when I rewatched that thing, I don't know that he was totally right either. By the way, I actually rewatched it this morning, just for shits and giggles.

A lot of people in retrospect say, you know, you got beat in the debate, but he said something that actually is, is very inaccurate now that no one brings up. And he says that all the stars of today are the last stars. And there are, obviously we were just talking about some now, are they mega stars?

No, but. Are they on the level of the 70s stars? No, but new stars did come post Mayweather, De La Hoya, Ricky Hatton, et cetera. Not many of them. And part of that is- In a way he's a gigantic star in Japan. In Japan.

Yeah, but I'm saying, Alexander Usyk is a massive star. We can't just- Well, is he a massive star? Alexander Usyk? Yeah. In Europe, I think so. I know. I think I think so I know I don't I mean I think he's great I think he's powerful power great is he a massive star I think you've never had a star I don't think you've ever had a Ryan García star heavyweight championship yeah partially because of social media though you can't put those

types no no it's a different world though because what makes you mess or Jake Paul might be the biggest, I don't consider him a real fighter, but Jake Paul might be the biggest. Why is he not a real fighter? Because he sucks. Okay but that doesn't mean that he's a, he could be a bad fighter but he could still be a fighter. Okay he's a fighter and you know what in fairness by the way I don't want to be unfair. He works his ass off, I've seen him get better. He steps through the ropes. I probably in the course of my career have promoted people that are no better than him. Right. There are people that are professional right

now that he could stand up with. So it's probably unfair for me to say he's not a fighter. He's not the talent of a superstar fighter. He's a superstar fighter because he's a celebrity. Sure. He is still more of a celebrity fighter than a traditional boxer. Dude, he fought a 58 year old fucking man. 100%. They called it a real fight. That's another problem. Think about our sport. You think Dana White would ever promote something where a 58 year old man who is admittedly like does a lot of drugs

and just had a bleeding ulcer, fought a 27 year old guy fighting full time boxer or MMA guy, you think he would ever do that? Because I don't think so. Not in 2025 when he's in the position that he's in now, but is it worth at least noting that Netflix, the biggest platform on the planet, they were interested. But Netflix, I mean, yeah, but they were interested in it.

But they're supposed to be. So is that the knock on boxing, or is that the knock on the times that we're living in? And is there something to be said? It's a knock on the times we're living in, but if boxing, if we did. Is there something to be said for what happened to Serrano and Taylor as a result of being on that card because now look What they're getting they're getting their own platform on July 11th. Let's let's see like if the big money for women's boxing survives

and I hope it does I Absolutely. Look I lost fighters Jake, but he's still trying to steal my fighters right now. They're better female You know what? I can't do anything for them like he can I mean we'll all do respect Netflix isn't walking around looking for women fighters It's Serrano Taylor was underneath Tyson It was people that saw that fight saw it because no one turned into what they had watched Taylor and Serrano People turned in to watch Tyson and whatever now Yeah, I don't begrudge them the girls $1. I'm glad they're getting paid

honestly, I think that Jake has a niche now, because he has his own niche as a celebrity fighter, and while everybody else is trying to figure out how to, what to do with the men's boxing game, he's out there trying to accumulate women and create a female promotion. Smart play? I think so.

I mean, I couldn't do it, but he can. Smart play. You know, I think so. I've always believed that women's boxing could be bundled up right and and Create opportunity right now. There's there were female world champions making 10 and 15 grand right Jake hasn't changed that Now maybe if he gets a big series or something maybe he can't I can't walk into Netflix and get a woman series Jake Paul can do you think that the TKO group will create their own belt or do you think they'll just use the ring belt?

I mean, you know. It doesn't matter. It doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter. It matters because people like trinkets, right? First of all, the ring belt only works in a unification situation. What the ring belt traditionally has been is the person.

The person in the weight class. So, and that's one of the key things about the fact that you and I know, and it's a big, worst kept secret in boxing, but there already is a Netflix deal with TKO and with Turkey. It's gonna be announced shortly. Canelo and Crawford will be the first TKO

promoted mega event. Brilliant, because you need the biggest events and then you need the development you need to rise up with the new stars which they will do because they will wind up with the SPI look at the track record of WWE entertainment properties look at the track record of UFC as a media property and then look at the track record of boxing dude it's fucking that's's not even so just last night um one of the brightest young stars in boxing is a young man named abdullah mason he fights for top rank but does it matter no no here's what i'm saying turkey just out of the blue tweeted

about it that's good for abdullah mason abdullah oh it's tremendous but abdullah mason is going to be a purge now like everyone is available we are like and there's nothing top rank matchroom queensroom, Queensberry, Delahoya, there's boxer, you can't do nothing about this. It's gonna be very hard for people that got enriched to the degree they've been enriched by Turkey to go after Turkey for talking about or directly to their fighters.

So you're not gonna see people, like people aren't gonna be like. Delahoya pushed back a little bit yesterday. He said he was offended. I mean he also, I mean dude, that interview, come on man, I'm hurt. What the fuck are you hurt about, brah? Like, what are you hurt about?

Hurt? What the fuck? I mean, I couldn't even fathom that interview. By the way, eight months ago, Delahoye was criticizing Turkey. I told, but here's, I have friends at his company. I don't know, Oscar blocked me a long time ago. Why?

I don't know, we were like, honestly, Oscar and I were always cool. I don't know, he blocked, I said something to him like, he blocked me. Okay. But I said to people at his company, and I said to people at Matchroom, I said to all my other, I mean I know everyone. I said, and I didn't mean this in a negative way

or disrespectfully toward Turkey, but I said you let the wolf into the hen house. He's not doing this to enrich you. He's enriching you to get in to the top talent. That top talent is now his excellency, his excellency, his excellency. Personally, I don't call anyone his excellency other than Jesus Christ.

If he returns to earth, I'll use the term his excellency. Otherwise, I'm not holding a man's hand or calling him his excellency, right? I have respect for the man though. He cares about the sport, has a plan, has shown quality control, has created programming over the last couple of years that never would have happened without him, right?

He hasn't done bad things for boxing. By the way, you know this, as much as I don't like Nikesa Baderi, it probably doesn't like me. I'm not a big fan of Jake's. I don't think Jake did anything negative to the sport of boxing. I don't think all the arguments that Jake Paul's doing this stuff brings good attention to boxing and boxing rises up because of it. That's equally horseshit. However,

no one can blame Jake Paul for the state of boxing. Jake Paul hasn't done anything wrong to boxing. If anything, Amanda Serrano should be very grateful to him and Katie Taylor's made more money than she ever made and he hasn't hurt anyone. I mean, the fact that he has the niche he has is a more reflection of the total shit show nature of the industry. And I think you were getting there earlier when you asked another question.

No, he didn't do anything inappropriate or wrong. He took advantage of an industry that needed stars because very few people were transcending anything. There were very few people that could afford 58 year old Mike Tyson and done a world of eyeballs the way that did. That's a tribute to Jake Starpower.

Jake Starpower is undeniable. You want to sit there and say, I don't like the guy, I don't love this kind of boxing, I don't like the influencer stuff, that's fine. But one, don't say he hurt boxing, he didn't. And also, you know, you can't deny his innate popularity and his star power. So what do you think happens?

Like, Crawford and Canelo, they're not tied to anyone right now, so that's the perfect one. But then what happens in a year from now? Do you think he's not working with Eddie, not working with Frank, not working with? No, he has to, you know, dude, he'll work with him to the extent he needs to or wants to.

Yeah. Like, if, I don't know, I don't think, I'm not sure Tyson Fury is contracted to anybody right now. I'm not sure what his contractual situation is. But if he is contracted to Frank Warren in Queensbury, they'll get paid right, I I Think Eddie does have some kind of deal with AJ. Yeah, and I don't think that they'll begrudge him his logo in the corner Of a poster and I don't think they'll rip him off of what he's entitled to economically

Do I think that that Turkey is gonna ask? Eddie's permission to talk to AJ probably not right? I don't is going to ask Eddie's permission to talk to AJ probably not right I don't think he's asked anyone's permission and frankly every fighter on earth wants to talk to him and I'm like I said when he appeared on on the Twitter Turkey's Twitter feed and Abdullah Mason got a little bit of pump from Turkey yesterday do Mason probably went to sleepless night feeling pretty damn good yeah no no that's the thing.

The top ranks of the world are like, okay, so is this it? Is Keyshawn next? Look, they didn't lose their ESPN deal because of Turkey. They didn't lose their ESPN deal because of Dana or Nick. Why did they? Just because of the marginalization of boxing. Boxing, traditional boxing, traditional boxing,

is not pop culture the way it was when I was running HBO Sports. The world has changed. Can it ever get back to that? Not with the present structure, maybe, and that's why, dude, I'm not hating on what Nick and. No, do you think that. I think that Nick and Dana, and with Turkey's money,

and Saudi money, and I think it's also interesting, by the way, Shapiro, you know, the people that they work for, said, we don't necessarily believe in boxing. We got our doubts about boxing, but with the Saudi money, and no economic risk to our company, we'll try to build it with them, we'll run it. I think they picked good people to run it. I think they picked the right people to build it with.

People who know how to create. See, the only reason people are saying league is because promotion means something different than boxing. Right, right, yeah. But what it really is is promotion. But it's a self-contained business, the way UFC is, the way WWE is. boxing, right? But what it really is is a promotion. But it's a self-contained business. The way UFC is, the way WWE is.

That is their best chance to create something transformative for boxing. You think they'll be successful? I think they can be. I think that you gotta be careful. There are people that know more about how to make matches in boxing in the trenches than they do. I hope that they use some of those people.

Yeah, they have to hire boxing people, right? They're not gonna sit there and match-make. Maybe not, I think that their intention is probably stay away from a lot of traditional boxing. They're gonna hire matchmakers and whatnot, they're not gonna sit there. Yeah, but they're gonna learn really interestingly what matchmakers are in boxing.

They're a very weird, interesting crew. They're all sorts of independent booking agents, the whole system of matchmaking's weird. They're gonna be weird, interesting crew. They're all sorts of independent booking agents. The whole system of matchmaking's weird. They're gonna be shocked with the encounter. You know, it's not so easy. You can't just go out there and say, I'm hiring this guy. There are not very few real.

Do you like the idea they say that they're gonna whittle down the weight classes, focus on the original eight or so, one champion, all this, do you like this? I think there are too many weight classes, but I don't know. What are they, like 17 now? Yeah, but I gotta tell you, when you're really small, eight pounds means a lot. Yeah. Like, I'm not sure about the original eight, but I would definitely whittle them down.

Okay. I think 17's too many. And they'll just say- I think the reality is- Buzz off WBC, they're just going to ignore all of them. And that's the right move. Yeah. And what do you think happens to those guys in 10 years?

What happens to Maur guys in ten years? What happens to Mauricio Sulaimán? Mauricio will be WBC is not gonna be extinguished. They're not resourceful has a lot of relationships around the world in certain countries Right now we're boxing operates in a small little bubble where it's not big Italy a lot of other places They're still gonna want the belts. They're still gonna pay the sanctioning feesing fees. I think there'll be fewer employees. There'll be less lavish conventions. They're going to have to pay themselves less. They're going to be less significant. But here's the other thing. How does Eddie survive without belts? How does Aram survive without belts?

Do you think then Eddie makes his own belt? Why can't he? No, no, no, no. Why? Why? No, because Eddie already, he told you what he was going to do. Listen to the interview., no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I fought cats and dogs with his father, but I loved them But I would but his father knew that if I could if I could create one organization get rid of three of them I would have done it. Did you ever try? Yeah, I sat in the room with a whatever promoter in the business, right? No, but you yourself like there's no way of trying I was never that I feel when HBO was at its peak. Oh, yeah Yes, I mean there were times we didn't promote the belts. We didn't put them up or whatever. I didn't like them

I mean, I tried there were times that I got hit with a mandatory, I stood on the stage and mother-fucked the organization as an HBO executive. I'm buying this because I fucking have to. Right? Right. I mean, there was, so I mean, that, I have mixed feelings about the organizations.

I have a lot of friends at the IB, I think there's some very good people that care about boxing. I think the guy that runs the WBO Olivier, he's a good guy. I think that the IBF, once they collapsed because of the legal problems they had, they were put into federal receivership

and they had to clean up their act. I think they have operated by their rules more than any organization has. Yeah, but they screw things up. That's why I'm actually okay. You can't have. We have undisputed title fights, and say, oh, we need this belt over here.

How do you have four belts in one weight? Yeah. And particularly in a sport that's no longer particularly mainstream. I mean, you know, we are in this sport. Yeah, yeah. It's ridiculous, but we've had that going on for years. And by the way, the only time it ever served anyone

was when the exclusive deals were, Eddie had his exclusive deal at the zone Pbc had their deals Aram had ESPN Well, then the more belts the merrier because everyone gets a belt right right right, but the reality is your champions Are no longer water cooler conversation topics right no one's getting up in post because I don't know who the hell they are right right there I believe that No one's getting up in postman clinical who the hell they are right right there I believe that Dana and Nick and turkey have a terrific chance here to Create a reinvigorated industry and create a sport that's far more mainstream But not correct the correct when they say not by working within the existing system, by tearing it down.

There are quotes from me, I went over and just Googled, I mean you can find quotes from me 20 years ago saying the sport needed an enema. I mean I've said for a long time, you know when people are saying why all the bad decisions, I'm like I'm always pissed off by the decisions. If you go on my Twitter accounts over the years, I mean I go crazy because I understand

why they're happening. Look at how sanction fees are set. Look, the organizations make the most money from the biggest star. So if the biggest star is being taxed, in effect, a few percentage points, you want that guy to keep winning because he's delivering the biggest check.

Do you think that's what happened with Hank Davis in New York? Yeah, to some degree. You know, I don't think Steve Will some degree you know i i i don't big steve willis is a bad guy i don't think there was corruption there i think he royally fucked up yet but he knew who he knew he knew who javante davis was but they could have

overturned it and they didn't they did not piss him off they might have been a lot that's the most obvious overturning of all time i can't point to one instance where the new york commission's ever overturned no commission ever over well They don't especially against the super they don't do it. They're afraid right? I'll do it right by the way the whole system of state athletic commissions right now Yeah, is completely that's gonna go away, too. No, but but I think that

Frankly, I don't think they micromanage UFC from a state commission level the way they more micro Well that is boxing because boxing's been a shit show boxing's been a free-for-all I mean you know you heard Andy Foster say hey I think Dana getting into this is good I think you UFC TKO getting into this is good those people know what they're doing yeah I think that feeling exists a lot of places they know what they're doing you know let me ask you about a topic that's near and dear to my heart that's journalism right yeah yeah Yeah, that, yeah. Okay, so you call Turkey the best promoter, the most successful promoter the last couple

of years. And I'm not knocking these guys. I will take a caveat. He didn't have to worry, he didn't care about making the losing money. Yes. But in terms of creating the biggest fights. Yes. 100%.

100%. And so any outlet that is owned by a promoter from a journalistic standpoint is problematic. There's a conflict of interest there. And so how do you feel about the top journalists now all working for this one outlet, the ring? And I think that most of the journalists out there suck. I think there's a complete lack of talent.

I think I respect you. You work for other guys, you work for people in the industry too. I respect a lot of other guys who work for people in the industry, I think everyone has to feed their families and get paid. But the nature of boxing journalism right now is sort of a joke because there's nothing independent

about it and everybody who, like the guys who I consider the best and the brightest among them are all co-opted to a degree. I mean, Kopperger's at ESPN, but I could see Kopperger going to work for these guys at some point. The Ring magazine, the Ring magazine,

it was owned by Oscar, so Turkey bought it. It was bought by one promoter from another, right? So it's not like Turkey bastardized Ring Magazine, it was already owned by Oscar. But there were like two people working for it when Oscar owned it. But you see it already. Now it's become the source.

It's a source, and it's also a little bit of a propaganda situation, right? But it's a marketing situation. I don't, I'm not gonna flip out over right, but I don't think there's independent journalism and boxing any longer really I mean almost everybody like, you know, Maddox was writing for some of these working for the zone And it's okay if you're working for the network not the promoter Oh, but but it wasn't the way it was when I started the business wasn't wasn't that way in the night? I was so worked for ABC. he told it like it is.

Yeah, but he only worked for ABC. No, but the point is, if you work for the network, I think that's okay. If you're working for the promoter, then it's a conflict. Especially when you're working for a network that works with multiple promoters. Well, if you're working for the network, the network has an exclusive with the promoter.

No, but they've got an exclusive of like six promoters at this point. So what are you gonna be biased to? I mean, they have- Well, by the way, by the way, Turkey owns 10% of the zone. Right, right. And everything I'm hearing and being led to believe,

Canelo and Crawford, the biggest fight of 2025, ain't gonna be on the zone. Yeah. Okay? I mean, you would think that there are rectums rotating at the zone. Stop. Why?

Yeah. I mean, am I wrong? No, seriously, what are they, the industry, what sport is their locomotive? I mean, in certain territories, big soccer deal, soccer league deal. Yeah, they have League One in France. They have places where, okay,

but what has been their common? Yeah, boxing. Okay, well. Well, is there a world where, okay, but what has been their common, okay, well. Well is there a world where, you know, they mention, Mark Shapiro mentioned four mega events on Netflix. There's gotta be more events. Okay, so the rest go there. Everyone's part of the zone, some will go into the zone.

You're not building a star in the zone. Name me one star that's been built on the zone. I mean, the vast majority of. Name me a star that's built on the zone. AJ I know a star that was built on the zone I mean he was a star before we ever went near Ryan Garcia no what no why not because he wasn't is it a star or wasn't built on to zone wasn't built on the zone last few years he's been on zone and that's how he's been on pay-per-view I don't know about that I mean he's had some maybe this wasn't built on the zone last few years he's been on his own and that's how he's been on pay-per-view I don't know about that I mean he's had some maybe this only built on this only when you have how many millions of internet followers

is he out he's honestly what came first the chicken or the egg I mean the zone hasn't built a star okay I'll give you a clear example okay give a clear example boots that is one of best fighters in the world no one knows who the fuck he is yeah he's had two fights on the zone He was on Showtime all this time. You're not building a star on a streaming service that has virtually no- Yes, that's not a fair example. You're not building a star on a streaming service. See, this is why- I'm sorry, you can't- This is why a free press would be necessary.

What do you mean? Because people who work for networks, these kind of conversations they have all the time. You can't argue with me that you could really build a star on The Zone. You can't build a superstar on The Zone when The the zones penetration in North America is what it is, which is negligible But what about the rest of the world? Okay, the rest of the world how many people you still think subscribe to the zone worldwide? They just had their go look at their last Annual report let me ask you this did Showtime build any stars. Yeah worldwide There's more people who have toed than had Showtime in America.

Okay, but they built Star, it was a combination, bro. Pay-Per-View, Linear, this is also. Dana and Nick, WWE, UFC. They are the best. Understand the power of Linear. Understand that you need not only multiple platforms, you need multiple types of platforms, right? You need competitive quote unquote free fights.

You need eyeballs on ESPN. You know outside of America, they're no longer on linear anymore, WWE. No, I get it. The whole thing is on Netflix. Well look, the whole world's changing. I'm just making a point. So why can't Diz zone change with those times?

Like, with all due respect, what's the big changes to the zone? They lost half a billion less last year? Why did they lose? No, you're laughing, but come on. Why did they lose half a billion less? You wanna know why? It's self-evident.

They lost half a billion yet less because Turkey was a really good partner. Sure, 100%. And Turkey wasn't getting guaranteed deals from the zone. Turkey was revenue splits. So all of a sudden the Zone had these mega events that they couldn't make on their own, by the way, that Turkey made and then the Zone had access to them without having to make a gigantic guarantee. Turkey's been pretty good to the Zone, right? But Turkey also has a tremendous amount of power there now and he owns 10% of the company. And, I think I heard Turkey say something about

Dana going to crush everybody. Did he say that? Did you hear that too? Okay. Well, I mean, that's the goal, 100%. He also said, I'm passing the baton over to them. They're gonna take it over. He never intended long term, I don't think,

I give the guy credit. I don't think he ever intended long term to give the baton to the guys he made the deals with. Now maybe, maybe there's a slight chance he had some thought of that and then he saw how it operates and saw what they really brought to the table and maybe he changed his mind.

I tend to think he never really had that intent. I think in the back of his head, he always thought that Nick, Dana, TKO were an inevitable partner. I don't know, I don't know. I'm gonna ask you this question. Knowing what you know of them, these are three, and if we want to- Big egos, big personalities.

Yes, do you think they can coexist? I mean, I think they're also very, don't take anything away from them. Dana's got a gigantic ego, but Dana's a smart guy. Dana also, they're a publicly traded company, they like money, they like succeeding, they win. Honestly, they're getting a benefit of a no risk deal. If you listen to what Shapiro said.

That's a pretty wonderful situation. Have an opportunity to create something that's as powerful as UFC, as powerful as, and they can. What they're gonna do in boxing, if done correctly, and if they get the traction they need, and they could all coexist, and it can be every bit the brand UFC is and WWE are. Because boxing is ripe for a takeover.

Look, every time a trailer came in, someone came in, the powers of boxing, everyone ran to take their money. Everybody was willing to take the money. And this is why, imagine being Eddie, four weeks ago you give a fucking interview, most honest interview by the way, I ever saw Eddie give on social media. And look, I got a little bit of a love hate with Eddie,

but I don't hate Eddie, I know Eddie since he's a kid. And he's a talented guy, man. Eddie's got that PT Barnum, I keep saying PT Barnum. Yeah, gift of gab. But he's that circus, like Barker. He'll be the first to tell you, I ain't the smartest guy, but I got the gift of gab, I'm a great bullshitter. And he is, he's a tremendous force of nature.

For Eddie to say about a month ago, and I'm almost the exact words, saying no one really wants to say it or admit it, but we all work for Turkey, and frankly, if he asked me to shine his shoes, I would shine them. Problem is, inevitably and in the end, he didn't want a shoeshine boy.

He didn't need his sandals shined. He needed someone, a partner, to execute his vision of completely changing the system. One champion, the best fight the best, right? One quote-unquote league. I think league is a language barrier thing. I don't really think they mean league. I think they mean self-contained promotion. Yeah, yeah. Right? Do you think he looked at any of those guys to do with or was the plan always to? I don't know more enough to answer but look, obviously the announcements

of the last week or two, they don't come based upon three or four conversations. He's been talking to Nick, particularly Nick, more of a deal maker on that level of the data, I think. I think he's probably been talking to Nick for a long time. I don't know that. Yeah, they've been in business with WWE for the last few years as well.

All right, so it suggests to you that these conversations have occurred over a course of time. Yeah. I think he had an idea what he was doing. Look, I know people that signed NDAs with him and went into press guys. I think you know them too.

I don't know if you were ever in a meeting with the other press guys in Turkey, but I think he actually told people that he thought the structure needed to be torn down. Writers. You know, they couldn't write it. He did it on an off-the-record basis. But I think he's been talking.

Why'd they do that? It was just an off-the-record chat. And they signed it anyways. No, I think at an off-the-record meeting. What I was led to believe is that there were a few off-the-record meetings. I didn't get the invite. I don't know, well, I mean, you.

Maybe I didn't make it. It might have taken place in Saudi. I don't know. Sure, sure, sure. But there were some off-the-record meetings where he suggested that, he believed they needed to be torn down. Hey dude, I gotta admit it, Mauricio is a friend of mine and he's mad at me now.

I mean he's mad at me for another thing too because I went after him for something else on social media recently. None of the organizations are in love with me because I've been shitting on them for 25 years. Does this make you sad or hopeful for the future of boxing? I mean, you know.

You still love the sport. I love the sport. Yeah, you do. I love it. I was sad when HBO came out of it, they got out of it. It was a dark day for me. Yeah.

I think we did this to ourselves. I think that we have no one to blame but ourselves. We were every man for himself. I can't sit here, I think I tried to be more of a voice of conscience a little bit than some people did. I think I tried to, I stayed small because it allowed me not to change some of the ways I wanted to do business. I never was the dominant guy.

I've always lurked around the top five or six in the country for most of the 25 years I was a promoter. But I never really thought of myself blowing up. I never took offense. Did you try to get one of those big deals? I don't know, the interesting part was, I tried to talk to people. Dzone, did you try? Yeah, I gave them whole business plans about women's boxing, all sorts of things,

but I didn't want to go there. I think the people that ran Dazoned. Like would you? Yeah, I did, I tried there. Right now, Demetri Salida has a promotion that reminds me a little bit of yours. Is that a fair, based on? No, because I think I also more understood my role.

When I got out of HBO, part of the, here's another reason the whole system has to change, by the way. Promoters are no longer the money. When the State Athletic Commission rules were written, promoters were the money. When the, promoters are no longer the money. Pay-per-view is the money.

Turkey is the money. Streaming services are the money, right? None of those players, for the most part, the streaming services, the streaming services and networks, after I left HBO, there was no quality control inherent in any of the platforms. And we never exercised our own. And when people got exclusive deals like Aram got and Eddie got, I was against exclusive deals. I never really sought one because I thought they were wrong. And I publicly have gone after them forever. And one of the reasons why boxing's in the state

it's in right now, one of the reasons why I do think that Dana and Nick and Turkey have a terrific opportunity here is that we didn't exercise quality control. We weakened our own product. PBC wanted to make their fights within PBC world. Eddie, you know, Matchroom was doing its own thing. They didn't want to enrich other people. You kept hearing about crossing the street.

And all these exclusive deals were happening. Wasn't making for better product, it was making for worse product. I'm shocked that whatever came to me and said, Lou, you were the best television matchmaker programmer ever in boxing, probably true, to this day, honestly. And I'm proud of that. Probably got me into the Hall of Fame.

Wasn't by being the fourth or fifth biggest promoter or sixth in the United States. It was more, I think it was a combination of what I did at HBO and what I did later. I don't think exclusivity is good where you have a broken... Boxing has been too every man for itself to do an exclusive deal with one promoter.

Right now in the weak state it's in, these guys come in, they're gonna be the dominant promoter. And it creates a whole different thing. And then shedding those belts, no seven champions per weight class, no 18 weight classes. I think that by the way, that they should look carefully at the original weight classes and maybe come out somewhere in between.

Because otherwise they're gonna deprive themselves of some great fighters making great fights. How many events would you suggest they do? I don't know how many I would suggest. And by the way, I think that's gonna be dictated to some degree by the success they have. How many platforms open the doors for them, right? I think they're gonna be... I? I think they're going to be.

I don't think they're going to put out, you know, I think there'll always be other boxing. I don't know. They're going to be very successful because they're going to get the ESPN deal. They're going to be on Netflix. No one has better relationships with the media companies than Nick.

Dana's a lifer in this business. He's cutthroat. He's ruthless, but he gets it done. It's going to be much harder for. And then you've got the pockets. It's like, it's like lifer in this business. He's cutthroat. He's, he's ruthless, but he gets it's going to be much harder for him. And then you've got the pockets. It's like, it's like the greatest trio for this type of takeover possible.

Right? It's he look, it's, it was more nervous right now. Those promoters or the, uh, the ratings who's more nervous, who's, who's, who's going to be extinct quicker, probably the, I think they're all going to be different than they are right now. Who's gonna be extinct quicker? Probably the, the ABCs. I think they're all going to be different than they are right now. I think, look, first of all, Arab's 94 years old.

Yeah. Okay, unless he's Methuselah, right, his run is limited in time. And I love Bob, I mean, it's funny because I almost killed him, it's in the HBO, the book that was written about HBO, how at one point I jumped over a couch and I had to because I almost killed him. It's in the HBO, the book that was written about HBO. At one point I jumped over a couch and I had to be pulled off of him.

But I mean, he's 94 years old. He's a survivor. I mean, he, but. But he's got Todd waiting in the wings. And it's gonna be harder for Todd. Todd doesn't have the gravitas. Todd doesn't have the relationships. Todd doesn't have the, you know,

the relationships with the fighters. You know, Todd took a hit with that lawsuit. It's gonna be harder. I mean, top rank in terms of organizationally is the best organization. You could argue who you believe is the best promoter. I mean, I see why you said Eddie. Eddie's bombastic kind of, that kind of judgment.

Eddie's talented. What do you think of all the Times Square, all this stuff and no tickets sold? I mean, it's a fuck, look, Turkey can afford to do what the fuck he wants. I think it's talented. What do you think of all the Times Square, all this stuff and no tickets sold? I mean, it's a fuck, look, Turkey can afford to do what the fuck he wants. I think it's cool. I mean, Alcatraz, on one level, who gives a shit, the other level,

on the other level, I think it's cool. And if Turkey wants to do it, he can afford it. He can afford it. I mean, it ain't hurting anything. Like, it gives cachet. I think the Times Square thing's sort of cool. I mean, if he was thinking profit margin and really worried about the P&L, it wouldn't be a Times Square

or it wouldn't be an Alcatraz. Do you have any idea what that would cost them to rent out Times Square? Well, they don't rent that all of Times Square. No, but even a portion of it. It's expensive, bro. I mean, security's expensive. You gotta pay the police department.

The police president. You can't even fathom, because they reference New Year's Eve, but that's the city shutting it down. It's not like New Year's Eve. No, it's totally. But you're not gonna have to pay the police department. You're not gonna have to pay the police department. You're not gonna You gotta pay the police department. The police president. Can't even fathom, because they reference New Year's Eve, but that's the city shutting it down.

It's not like New Year's Eve. No, it's totally. But you're not gonna have 10,000 or 100,000 people watching it. Well, maybe, they're not closing down the whole time score so people can gather and watch the big screens. Now, we rented all the big screens, but my understanding is it's under 1,000 people

that could be in that bubble. But still, it's astronomical. It's phenomenally expensive. No one else would thousand people. Yeah, that could be in that bubble, but still No one else would do it right right, dude, you understand how little reinvestment there was in boxing First of all, I couldn't do the reinvestment. I had a small company. I never had more than six employees Okay, I never had a giant company I was always I never got offended when Richard Schaefer Heyman would call me mom mom pop for a period of time I had a great relationship with Heyman. I promoted almost every event at Barclay Center for those early years at ABC.

In a weird way, I think the success I had building the Brooklyn market maybe was one of the reasons Al and I fell out, because Al didn't want a promoter to have that association with anything. I still respect Al, we don't talk really the way we did. We were friends for 19 years, but I got nothing but love for him. I actually think also he's a really resourceful, smart guy. He won't be put out of business by this,

but everyone's got more issues and problems. How do you build the star now? And how do you embrace the existing system which failed? When Adi gave that interview when he said, I'm chill because I'm comfortable in my own business. I believe he is. I mean, if you don't have, you couldn't do with Eddie and I did,

what Aram did, what Frank Warren did, what Oscar did without a big ego. Comes with the territory. Does Dana have an immense ego? Yeah, Dana's also one of the best promoters on the planet, right? Now, it may be interesting to see how his ego drives long term with Turkey's ego because they both appear to have gigantic egos, but they also both have a gigantic opportunity and they're both really smart guys. I tend to think they'll

figure it out. Let me ask you, why did you choose minor league baseball? When you said that you were slowly. Because baseball's always been my favorite sport. Okay. I mean, when I left HBO and I got, I left HBO, I got a settlement when I left. I told the president, the chairman of Time Warner to go fuck himself. Geez, what year is this?

At a big meeting, that was about 2000 roughly. Okay. We had it falling out. I mean, I, to be quite frank, I thought that I was in line to get a job that, a big job, and no one told me it wasn't happening until I walked into a meeting and I was sort of blindsided. And then I didn't really want to be, even back then, I didn't want to be Mr. Boxing alone.

I loved the sports world, I loved baseball, I wanted to do other things. And I really wanted that portfolio to be head of president of HBO Sports. And it started to become clear to me that that probably was unlikely. And at that point, I wasn't, you know, I probably caused my own exit,

but I left and I left with some money. Immediately I bought into minor league baseball. Immediately. I bought a piece of a team in Altoona, Pennsylvania that my friend who later bought the Texas Rangers owned that team at Altoona. And I learned how to run a minor league team by watching what he was doing. And then I bought a team in Connecticut, struggled minor league, moved to Richmond and became one of most successful teams in minor league baseball. The team moved? Yeah. And why

Richmond? Yeah, it moved to Richmond. Why Richmond? Great market. I mean, one of the biggest minor league markets. Baseball crazy town, had the Braves for years and years. Lost baseball, got it back. And then I hired the best management people in minor league baseball. Guys that understood that a minor league baseball game needs to be like a carnival.

And we went from last in the AA in attendance in our league to first and Building a new stadium building a hundred twenty million dollar stadium Wow got a lot of money from From a bond issue in Richmond to do that there it is look at that car max part next part and You see the work under construction construction right now and the second team is where in Montgomery, Alabama Yes, the rich the Montgomery biscuits the Tampa Rays double-A team. So I run two pretty big businesses. The team in Richmond are particularly big business because it's really one of the flagship minor league teams. Do you think in five years no more boxing?

DiBella, entertainment done? I have a love for it. I would do commentary possibly. I did it for a while while I was a promoter. It would be fantastic. I think it was pretty good. Probably hard to get a word in edgewise with the other crew. No, I mean, I was actually- But I'm talking about like the promotional company. Cause you still have like what, 20 fighters? Yeah, I still do. And the fighters I have,

if they, I think they're probably better off with me than being free because I feel an obligation to all of them. I don't breach my contracts. I keep my fighters fighting. I'll do a couple of shows free because I feel an obligation to all of them. I don't breach my contracts, I keep my fighters fighting. You know, I'll do a couple of shows a year to fulfill an obligation that someone has to fight X number of times, but I'm not gonna be a promoter in the same way.

For the most part, the days of promoting shows, like individual promoters doing it, are sort of coming to an end. And that's sort of why I was making the point about Eddie and Bob and Warren and Oscar And that's sort of why I was making the point about Eddie and Bob and Warren and Oscar now being exactly what they used to criticize me for. Like when they got their exclusive deal

and I couldn't get directly to a network, even when I had the talent, and that pissed me off, I'd have to go through them. And then they would actually have the nerve to take shots that I was a middle man. Me who was running more local shows, putting my money where my mouth was, not making money doing Broadway boxing,

144 shows in New York City, dominant promotion in New York City for 20 years, right? But they were doubting me for being a middle man. Well guess what, motherfuckers, that's what you are now. That's what you are now. And they have a chance to, every time there's a dominant promotion, someone is back there trying to claw their way up.

Maybe they all work together better. Maybe they make changes to the organizations. Maybe they convince the organizations to merge. Maybe they create something that's a resistance to what's gonna be done with the league, quote unquote, or the Netflix deal. I don't think that in the long run, Dana and Nick or Turkey care about coexisting with them.

I think those guys wanna build their own thing. If their own thing is successful enough, organically, they will be the dominant powerhouse build their own thing. If their own thing is successful enough, organically they will be the dominant powerhouse in a near, not illegal, they're not going to be, I don't think that UFC is illegal, is an illegal monopoly, right? I don't think they're breaking law, but they're sort of monopoly, they're a monopoly from economic power. That's probably the aim in boxing too,

to become dominant enough that you're a de facto monopoly, not a legal monopoly, a de facto monopoly. It's gonna take some time, nothing's gonna be torn down overnight, but there is zero chance that if these guys are dedicated to this effort, and one person, like for example, if something happened to Turkey, is the money still, is the partnership still there?

Is the economic backing of Saudi still there? And by the way, by that time, does it matter? Because if it's not, and they've created the dominant promotion, why won't Nick and Dana just run with it? So I'm not, yeah, I think that none of the major four promotional companies now that have deals with the zone will be what they are now in five years.

None of the ratings organizations will be what they are now in five years. Probably the top promoters won't be what they are now in three years. Will they go away? Only if they want to. Look, I managed to survive with no platform for a decade. And if I lost money that decade,

it would have been out long ago. I don't think that they are going to, I think Eddie is too talented to be chased out totally if he wants to find the niche. But Eddie's not a niche guy, man. Eddie's a big guy, like a big picture guy. If Eddie thinks like, fuck man, I can't beat these guys, I can't compete with these guys,

he said, Bill, his family are billionaires. His family was rich as fuck before Eddie ever got into this shit. He walked into his company. Do I expect Eddie to scrape and to struggle in five, six years, 10 years to be relevant? No, I think he'll retire and do something else. I mean, by the way, Matt Shrum has a whole portfolio

of other sports, and Eddie's enough of a celebrity in the UK to do some television shit, or whatever he wants to do. Do I think Top Rank has got issues? Top Rank's got a 94-year-old chairman, right? But Todd's not a dumb guy. They have really good people working there for them. Do I think they'll go out of business? I think they'll figure it out for a while. It's going to take a while.

Sure, sure. Not overnight. And then when it all settles out and TKO, whatever that promotion is, has all their TV and streaming deals, there will be another streaming service or another competing sports service or someone else that may want boxing property. But it ain't gonna be the way it is right now. And certainly, you asked me if I'm gonna stay in boxing. I'm gonna stay in boxing. I'm gonna accept the changes that are coming.

And I think I have a tremendous amount of knowledge of this industry And I think I have a tremendous amount of knowledge of this industry. I think I have a tremendous eye for talent. I think I can help a fighter in the right situation, but much more likely to do so going forward as an advisor than as a promoter. I'm not, the days of me doing a monthly series or promoting 20 shows a year, they're done.

Fascinating. We'll leave it at that. Thank you, Lou. Appreciate you coming in. Love your insight. Love that you keep it real. I think that from a fan standpoint, look, you've got more big,

I mean, if you're not worried about it, if you're a fan, yeah, yeah. I wanna watch you watch. My business, yep. Turkey made sure you got some good stuff. Yeah, it's couple years I don't think that's gonna disappear and by the way I think if he wants a particular fight and a guy's contracted to one of the other four guys He'll pay the other four guys and make the fight. I don't think he's I don't think there's gonna be a lot of spite here I think it's gonna be organically that the winds of change tear down the structure. The old paradigm of boxing has been for decades broken and it's going to come down.

And that's not a bad thing necessarily. And I'm open minded as to what's coming. And I certainly have a lot of respect for the ability of Nick and Dana to run a business. They've already shown they can do it. And I think Turkey has shown me that he gets it. And what I mean by gets it is he gets the fact that to build it up, you must tear it down, right?

And that's what's coming. And I don't think that's a bad thing And I don't think that's a bad thing. I don't think that's a bad thing. Four ratings organizations, never tenable. Seven champions in a particular weight class, world champions between interim and regular and this and that, untenable. You're never gonna build a superstar that way,

the right way. I mean, you build some superstars, but a lot of boxing champions have functioned in obscurity. I think it's a, for a fan, it's gonna be really interesting times for fans, and it's gonna be a really interesting time for guys like you that are covering this shit. Yeah, yes, absolutely.

And for me, look, it's another thing. I'm not 44 anymore, right? You know, I'm 60 plus. If I was 40 years old, I'd be thinking a little bit differently maybe. I'd be calling meetings with some of the other, I'd be thinking, finally, let's see what we can do. Right.

Right, by the way, let them do what they're gonna do. We can't compete with that, but we could create something maybe that has legs, right? But I'm not interested in being a resistance anymore. I'm not interested in fighting windmills anymore. I tried to fight windmills in boxing for my entire 25 years as a promoter, but everybody from the ratings organizations,

the guys running it, to the managers, to the promoters, to the fighters who became content with fighting once or twice a year, everyone was complicit with a broken system. Including the writers, by the way, who would call the guy champion who just lost a fight nine rounds to three and got robbed, but three days later, the guy that won,

that got that decision was the champion, and the other kid was fighting for a fraction of what he should have been fighting for. We all played into a broken system. If this is an opportunity to start fresh, I'm not going to be immediately adverse to it and I'm not going to close, you know, my mind to it. As a fan, yeah, I'm more speaking to it now. Lou, you're the man. Thank you so much. I appreciate the time very much. We're gonna take a quick break. Here's my conversation with Dylan

Danis from yesterday. We'll be right back with Natalia Neidhart. Don't go anywhere. All right that was my conversation with Dylan Danis yesterday. Check that out on the channel right now. What about Lou DiBella? What a guy. I mean I think I asked like six questions but I don't even know if I asked a single question. I had to kind of, it was like it was like it was like my boxing in out flow like a butterfly sting like a bee in a matter of seconds though we are gonna be joined by a legend a pioneer a trailblazer a Guinness World Record holder most pay-per-view appearances most matches most wins most WrestleMania appearances most Raw and SmackDown matches by a female wrestler.

In my opinion, the greatest female wrestler of all time. How could you say otherwise? Third generation superstar has done it all, continues to do it, just recently resigned with World Wrestling Entertainment from the most famous family in wrestling history, if you ask me. And most importantly,

salt of the earth, a salt of the earth Canadian, one of the nicest human beings you'll ever come across. She is the one and only Natalia Neidhart. She is kind enough to join us right here and now. I hope she heard that introduction because it was glowing with praise. Natalia, how are you? So good to see you. Thank you so much. Okay, wait, I gotta see the Bret Hart. Where's the Bret Hart? There's a lot of your family here. First things first. Oh my goodness. There he is. I'm not gonna hold it. You can take it. This is so cute. Guys, this is adorable.

That's my guy. You know I adore him. I know you love Bret. I love him more than anything. I'm gonna hold on to Bret. Can you please tell him I say hello? I will. This is just so cool. There's Brett. I love him more than anything. I'm gonna hold on to Brett. Can you please tell him I say hello? I will, this is just so cool. There's more. I love, oh my.

There's a whole Brett Hart, Montreal Forum newspaper ad. Wow. There's, you know these guys. The British Bulldogs, I love this. And Matilda. And Matilda, how cute is that? You know this woman right over there? There's Davey.

You know this woman right over my shoulder, right over there? Me. There you are. You were kind enough to give me that. This is so cool. Your family is everywhere. This is awesome. I love all the wrestling, which of course, you know,

I know you love wrestling and you love old-time wrestling. Adore it. I love when people love wrestling because it's so much easier to connect, especially when you come from like a long line of wrestlers. Like I always feel like since I've been a kid, that's just like, it's just, it speaks that universal language

of growing up with like, Gene Okerlund's voice in the background, Bobby Heenan, or like, Gorilla Monsoon, or it's like, those are like the voices of like, my childhood sort of thing, so. You were just in the most famous wrestling building of all time, some might say, last night. Yes, and I never, like, whenever I'm in that building, I always go toward the entrances. And I, it's just something I always do, and I always like whenever I'm in that building. I always go to where the entrance is and

I it's just something I always do and I always like walk out through the curtain through gorilla because It's like my way of remembering Brett and Owen when they had their match there Oh, yeah, WrestleMania 10 and it was like, you know, I think arguably one of the greatest WrestleMania opening matches ever and Brett had pitched for Owen to have that match. He had pitched for Owen to have that rivalry with him. And so I always feel like it's just, it was one of the most incredible moments of Owen's career. And it was like, whenever I'm at MSG or inside the building,

I always go and just like stand there, look around and think about them. Because I would have had nothing if it wasn't for them, you know, paving the way for me to do what I'm doing today. Did you watch that live? I did. How old were you? It was 93. Gosh, we're gonna date me. Yeah. Well, we're the same age. We're the same age. No, I mean, and I, like, I've always watched wrestling, like, since I've been a kid, like, I've always, I always loved watching my dad on TV because I just I always I knew it was special. Even when I was a little girl, I knew it was special.

I loved especially loved like when it was my dad and Brett versus the Rockers. I like my little sister and I had and I've spoken about this before, but we had these like big crushes on the Rockers. I like had a crush on John Michaels and she had a crush on Marty. And it was like our dad was on TV and is we just like we were fans too. You know what I mean? Like I love wrestling and I've grown up in a huge wrestling family of course but I've always been a fan sure you have to be I feel like it's important by the way did you know that your father the the late

great Jim the Anvil Neidhart who I adored as well he made his MSG debut January of 1985 and Howard Finkel was the one who announced them. Wow. Yeah. So it was 40 years ago, two months ago. Wow. Wow. January 19th, who did he beat that night? I, you know what, I'm not sure, but I-

Tony Gurria. Tony Gurria. Yes. Okay, and Tony Gurria was there when I first debuted in WWE. He was a producer there. Yes. And yeah, he was such a sweetheart,

but he was kind of like, he was very old school. Yes. So you are a wrestling historian. I adore that stuff. And I adore your family and I adore you. You've been so kind to me. You've been kind to my family. You've sent my kids merch and stuff like that. So spread the love.

I know. And we talked about doing an interview in studio as you were deciding your future over the summer. The timing didn't work out. You eventually decided to resign with WWE. Could I ask, did you consider not? So for me, that's a great question. Ariel, what the hard hitting question.

Oh, I'm sorry, you know. No, no, you're good. When you're a free agent, you gotta look at options, right? So when I was figuring out what to do with my deal, my deal had come up, so it was up at the end of June of last year, so I had this huge decision because I was coming out of to do with my deal. My deal had come up, so it was up at the end of June of last year, so I had this huge decision because I was coming out of a five-year deal.

So I was, you know, and of course I've been in WWE longer than, you know, signed and uninterrupted, longer than any other woman like in WWE history. Since 07, right? Since 07. Yeah. So I, and I've been, like, I've never had, like, I've never been let go,

and I've never really had an injury that's taken me out longer than, like, eight weeks. So I've been so steady there. And so, and you know what I think about it, like, as far as other people that have kind of had that? I think about The Miz. The Miz and his longevity and just how he's just gone, like, he's just so stable, so steady, so reliable. And for me, and Miz is incredible.

I think he's an incredible entertainer. But for me, I think I was like reaching a crossroad where I was like, okay, you know, I, to be brutally honest, I have been screaming for change for myself for so long. And so it was just at that, sorry I get emotional talking about it, but I was at that crossroad where I was like I need more.

I need more, I want more, and I'm just you know, and the thing about being in WWE for as long as I've been there is that it's very easy to get comfortable. It's very easy to go, you know, I drive a nice car and I live in a nice house and I sleep in a nice bed and for me I don't sleep well. I don't sleep well because I'm so hungry. I'm so hungry for more. And I mean,

that's why like one of the greatest luxuries I have in my life is having my own ring, like having my own ring and being able to train there and having that outlet. And so that is something that I expressed in resigning is that I just want more. And a lot of times you have to take a chance on yourself. You know, you have to take a chance on yourself and you have to do things that are risky. And I would rather take a risk and land on, you know, just fall on my ass than to do nothing. It is better to take a risk and have it fail than to do nothing. And so I had expressed some of the things that I wanted to do with the powers that be. Triple H was great. He was extremely supportive. He was very understanding. And it was nothing against

the management that was before him because I had, I have had an incredible career. I've gotten to do so many things. You know, when I think about all the things that I've done and like just having all those Guinness world records, it's because I've worked so much. I've done so much, but I've just very much needed change. And I think change comes with stepping outside of your comfort zone, which is why in the last month or so you've seen that I've taken on. Yes. Okay, because it's interesting because you said change and then I think when I hear change,

I think you don't resign. But what you did was you resigned. But as as you were saying a lot of change in mind Bloodsport, Josh Barnett, WrestleMania week which I'd love to talk to you about because I think it's a fascinating promotion and then NWA, Crockett Cup I think that's May 17th there's the Bloodsport and there's the the poster for NWA this is big-time stuff yeah and Yeah, and that's a big part of like- And you made this happen. I did, I made, I very much made this happen.

I had to work very, very hard to make this happen. Was it difficult? Well, it's just that it's very unusual that a talent, especially somebody that has been there as long as I have been and who's as established as I've been and who, like I said, people, you know, there's, there might be a perception of me that like, you know, she's, she's like, listen, I got expensive cats. I just, I love the idea of stepping outside my comfort zone and like, just doing something that nobody would expect. And so I think also I'm at the stage too,

where like I have been wanting so much more and screaming for so much more, but I think I have to do different things and I have to get a little uncomfortable. And so Josh Burnett is a really good friend of mine and somebody that I deeply respect. And I reached out to Josh and I was like, hey, you're gonna be here during WrestleMania week.

I would love to do what Shayna did last year. I said I would love, I told Josh and I was like, hey, you're gonna be here during WrestleMania week. I would love to do what Shayna did last year. I said I would love, I told Josh and Triple H, I said I would love to work in that space and to show people what I can do because Josh's style, I've trained with Josh before. It is very, very reminiscent of the dungeon style. And of course, where my family has come from. And so they were Triple H and Josh were both super supportive of it. And like, it's one thing for me to just jump back into the division and do something. It's another thing for me to go outside of the division, like literally run a gauntlet on

my career and go, Hey, either I'm going to prove everybody wrong, or I'm going to prove myself right that I really am one of the greatest women wrestlers in the entire world. And I'm screaming for change. And so that's again, why I reached reached out to Josh and why I reached out to Billy Corgan. And so just curious to play devil's advocate if you didn't resign with WWE you could go you could do the Cody Rhodes thing right the Drew McIntyre thing and then work for everyone why did you resign with them but then go this route of trying to work with these other promotions? Because I have a lot of faith in Triple H. I have like, I've seen, I have a lot of faith in his ability to tell stories and I've seen like, just in the last year, for example,

the entire company is hotter than it's ever been, ever. Like we're hotter than the Attitude Era right now. Like I, Madison Square Garden was just like, we were in the locker room and the floor was like vibrating in the locker room. It's just like every show is big. It's not just WrestleMania. It's not just, you know, we're doing Royal Rumble. Every single show we're doing is sold out. Every single show is big. And a lot of that has to do with the direction and how we're telling stories.

So like prior to this, sometimes I would just be and this isn't like a dig at anyone by any means, but I would be thrown into like a storyline that would just last a week or just thrown into a match or just thrown into this or just thrown into that. And I think I was always, and I still am like a good sport and a good, you know, team player. I always want to kind of do the right thing. And I, I, it's not that I was like, I don't like to make demands or throw my weight around or be, you know, be difficult backstage.

So sometimes I would find myself in certain like storylines and things that like I knew that they weren't going anywhere. Whereas I feel like now the difference is that Triple H really has a vision and it takes time to get there. And you see that vision. I see so many incredible changes with people like Nia Jax, with Liv Morgan, with Chad Gable. Those are three people that I feel like Triple H has really changed their whole trajectory and turned everything around for them.

When it's hard sometimes when you may have a certain perception of you or how you are. And I think that he is incredible at telling stories with talent. And it takes time to tell those stories though. You see the very, very slow build. Like even with the Naomi, Bianca, Jade storyline, like it's a slow building story,

but when they finally get to where they need to be and they're still going, it is so good. And I think that takes time, but in order for me to kind of reinvent, I have to take chances. So my decision to resign, um, comes in my faith in the company's new direction and where we're going and with new leadership and just, you know, are the way that the way that we tell stories.

And so sometimes it doesn't always happen right away, but I also think that I have to do my part too, as a talent, you cannot get comfortable. And I say this all the time when I'm coaching at my ring, the dungeon, you cannot get comfortable. When I see people tell me they want it and they're not in shape, I'm like, you're comfortable. You know, when somebody tells me that they want it but they don't train, somebody tells me that they want it but they're not a student of the game. You have to be watching everything. I watch everything. I watch wrestling across the board because I wanna see what everybody's doing.

And I wanna find inspiration and I wanna go, oh, I don't wanna do that, or oh, I wanna do this, or I loved what they did. It doesn't have to just be in WWE, but that's the thing is that I think there's so many opportunities right now with the company being as big as, like it's just the direction that it's going

and the ability to tell great stories that for me, I'm really excited to just kind of dive into that but in the right way. You know what I mean? Yeah. How do you feel about right now? Right now, it seems like you've got something going on with Maxine, right? So Maxine is first of all, I have so much respect for Maxine. Sydney is her real name. But she is very hardworking. She's on her days off. She's training. She's going to several different schools. She's trying to learn. She's going to the performance center. Of course, she didn't have a wrestling background. She wasn't on the independence.

So she is trying to learn, and she's trying to grow. But for me, to be brutally honest, I do have to be careful about just aligning myself with anyone, because think about how many tag team partners I've had in the past. And that's also because I've been in the past. And that's also because I've been in WWE for so long, two decades. Of course, I'm going to have a lot of tag team partners, but I really want to be careful as far as moving forward what I do and who I'm aligned

with and that everybody has the same sort of vision that I do, which is greatness. Like, I do not want to do anything that's mediocre. I want to do things that are great. And so that's the thing is that I just, I'm ready to do great work. And I think Maxine is totally capable of doing great work, but it's going to take time for me to really align myself with anyone because of, you know, just having so many different tag team partners. Did you feel at a point that it was mediocre stuff that you weren't proud of the work? There's things that like, I think, especially because growing up in the business, and again, this is to be brutally honest, like, you know, growing up in the business with a parent,

like Jim the Anvil Nidart, my dad is, you know, he's one of my greatest inspirations in my life. But like growing up, my dad lost his job a lot. And so for me, I always I think subconsciously, even before I ever got to WWE, I always had this fear of like, I have to make everyone happy. I have to please everyone. I have to be the company girl. I have to be everything that my dad like wasn't. I have to be perfect. So whatever Vince wants me to do, or whatever, you know, my boss wants me to do, I just have to do what they want me to do. And so sometimes when you're trying to be perfect for everyone else, you can lose yourself. And it's not that like, again, I'm not playing, you know, I'm not playing the victim or anything. But sometimes like, for example, like, you know, I didn't necessarily want to pass gas in a storyline, but that was what was asked of me

at that time. So for me, I was just trying to be like, yes, whatever you guys need, not only am I even if I don't like it, I'm going to try to make it fantastic. And so sometimes like when those things don't work out, you can compromise the integrity of your character. And it takes a little bit to kind of get that back. And so, you know, like that again, not to go back to what we were saying, but like, I just feel like now with the storylines and the way that the company is being run, everything is just being so much more well thought out. And I feel like it's such a great opportunity for me to really like, do what I always wanted to do, which is tell great stories and just be great. And so like, that's exciting to me. That is so

exciting to me to be able to like, go, I'm in the best shape of my life. I wake up every single day. I don't know how this happened, but I wake up every single day pain free. I love what I do. I love the women that I work with and I just love wrestling. And I just wanna be my absolute best.

I was gonna say the F word, but I- No, you can. You can say whatever you want here. I might drop an F bomb at some point later. That's fine. I wanna, we could-bomb at some that's fine later I want to we could go down this road But I don't want to forget that you have something that you want to announce and I want to ask you many things About this announcement. So the floor is yours

You've been teasing something that I think relates to this or maybe it's another thing as well But you are you are going to announce something very special to you. So yes Do you want me to say it? Yes, I would love that. Okay. It's your announcement, it's not mine. So over the last year, I have been working on a book. And so today I'm announcing my book. And I was so nervous about, I was so, so nervous.

I don't know why, like I was so nervous about announcing it, like sharing it with the world, because I just have been like, it's been like my baby. I've been working so hard on this, and really like, you know, just pouring my soul into this. And I was so grateful that this summer, Triple H allowed me to have time to work on it and to really dig into it. You know, once I signed my new deal,

I started working on it and really just pouring my soul into it. And it was one of the most like cathartic experiences of my life to be able to go, okay, I want to tell my story. Because once I started writing it, I realized that a lot of people don't know my story. that like I a lot of what has been shared or like what's out there of me or what WWE has shown of me through through 18 years of being in WWE and even being on Total Divas. It's it's a lot of people don't know my story and that's really cool I really, like things I've never talked about, things that I was scared to talk about, things that I was scared to share, the things that have happened within my family, with my dad, which my dad and I have, we were very close, but we had a very complex relationship,

which it's just like being able to dive into that and to be able to tell the story. I just realized by the time I got to the end of it, I was like, nobody knows my story. And that's what makes me excited. So while I was scared to kind of share it because a lot of it's really, a lot of it's really deep stuff.

And a lot of it, there's a lot of fun in it too. And there's a lot of like insight, like especially having worked for 18 years in WWE and having like, you know, all sorts of crazy funny scenarios. There's a lot of stuff that I think when I was writing, it's like, Natty, don't be afraid to say this. Don't be afraid to talk about this

because this could literally be the, this could literally be something that could help somebody else in their life. This could literally be somebody else's survival handbook, you know, for how somebody else is going to deal with a situation, whether, you know, and there's, there's, there's moments where we talk about, I mean, like I said earlier about my dad losing his job. When I started to really dive into those chapters and started to really talk

about it, I was like, man, like when I was a kid, it was like one minute, your dad's on TV and he's larger than life and he's winning the tag team championships. And then the next day your dad's getting fired, you know, and as a kid growing up, there was just so much volatility because the wrestling business was very volatile back then. And it wasn't just like my dad was getting fired for just because, you know, Vince McMahon loved my dad. He had a soft spot for my dad, but my dad had a lot of issues that were going on and more than what people know. Not just drug related issues or substance abuse issues, which are more public. So we dive into what those issues are. And then, you know, of course, you know, as I grow up and as my dad and I share that same journey with my career and having, for me, having done the same career as him, which is wrestling,

I learned so much along the way. And more than I can, you know, explain in just an interview, but it's just so, it was so therapeutic and it was so hard at some points to talk about because there's just some things that just make me emotional sharing because, you know, there's, my family, there's my family's, there's so much meat on the bone.

Like with my Uncle Owen passing away, or my husband's injury that ended his career. My dad dying, like, people just don't know about exactly what happened and exactly how it went down and exactly what we were going through. And so, it's just so, I'm so grateful that I'm able to share it. It's really, I feel like this might be my most special piece of work. Wow.

I believe it's available October 28th and the title is a very profound one. It kind of, I love the title, but it makes me a little bit sad as well. It's Last Heart Beating. We have the cover, there it is. It's a beautiful cover. Is that accurate? Do you think you are the last one?

I know it's a play on words a little bit, but are you the final stop? And also, before you answer that question, without giving away too much, you were kind enough to, you were kind enough to allow me to read a few chapters, which I did last night, and I enjoyed it immensely. And like, the fourth line in gave me like a little bit of a shot in the arm because you write,

the first and only woman for my family to wrestle and I feel the weight of that legacy on my shoulders every day and part of that weight is always trying to make sure my family's achievements in this fast changing business are never forgotten. That's an incredible burden. That's a lot for one person to handle. It's, for me, I just never take it lightly. And sorry, this book is so special to me because

I just want to make my family proud, but I feel like I was never supposed to make it. You know what I mean? Like it's just in such a male dominated sport, especially when my grandfather just, you know, he started all of this. He was like the tree who, you know, he was rooted in the soil and he grew these branches that helped my uncles, Brett and Owen and Davy boy and Dynamite and my dad.

He was able to give us all of that. And so like, I've just had such, like, I very much wanted to make my grandfather proud very much wanted to make Brett and Owen and Davey and dynamite my dad proud because those their legacies are huge. And it's, you know, I think about, you know, our families, like my family is, our legacy is so special. And we've got like, my family's really paved the way for so many people in the industry, but I am in WWE.

I'm still, like I, after 18 years, I'm still standing. I'm still standing, and I outlasted everyone. Yeah. And in WWE, that's very, very hard to do. And it's funny, I actually saw Booker T this morning. Booker T is, he helped me come up with the cover or the title. Oh, wow. Sorry, Booker T helped me come up with the title. He did an interview and he asked, he was asked about, you know,

which female superstar he thought was the greatest of all time. And I was just shocked when he said, he said me. And I was like, wow, I'm blown away that Booker T would say that. And then I heard what he said. And he said, because she's the last motherfucker breathing. Wow. And so I said I was gonna drop an F bomb. And so of course, I'm a huge Tupac fan. And that's from Booker T said it's from breathing. Yeah. From that Tupac. Yeah. Breathing. And even for the women, I outlasted all of them. All the women that I started with, I'm still standing. So I got to the end of my book when I finished the last chapter and I realized, holy shit, I didn't have the main event of

WrestleMania. I didn't have to win all of these titles. I didn't have to have all the glory that everyone else had. I am still here. And I'm still standing. And I'm still doing what I love at the highest level of the sport. And I'm okay. Like I'm unscathed. Like I'm here. And so that was to me like just this epiphany

that I had about my career and you know, just like I'm so lucky that I get to do what I love. I'm so grateful that I get to work with such amazing people. I've had such incredible influences on me from you know, like one of my greatest influences is Brett, which I know you love Brett. Like and Brett to me, so many people would never have

the things that they have in their career without Brett. And I'm just speaking openly about that because I think people love Brett and he's very celebrated now, but he doesn't always get his flowers for other people's greatest matches. You think about, for example, Steve Austin, WrestleMania 13. Steve says, he said,

he's gone on the record and said, if I didn't have that match with Bret Hart, I may never have gotten to that next. Like, Bret really, he really helped as a catalyst for so many others while still maintaining his integrity as one of the greatest to ever do it. You know, and you think about Brett's match with Owen, WrestleMania 10, Madison Square Garden. It was the greatest match of Owen's career because it was on the, obviously the grandest stage, but Bret really, really went to bat for Owen. He really fought for Owen to have that storyline.

It wasn't supposed to be for Owen at all. It was supposed to be for somebody else in my family. Oh, really? So, yeah. Can I ask who? I think it was supposed to, I don't, it'll get into family politics politics. Okay I understand. We don't want that. We don't want that. Save it for the memoirs. Okay all right. But so Brett really fought for Owen to have that moment and and like it was so special. It was one of the most special nights of Owen's life and when you think about you know Brett Hart and Davey Boy Smith Wembley Stadium, people to this day still talk about the magic of that match because Davey was phenomenal.

Bret, they had this magical story, you know what I mean? And so like, I think about that match. I think about Bret with Mr. Perfect, you know, and you think about, you never know what those people are going through in their lives during that time. And sometimes when you hear like, when Bret will tell like the backstory of like what was going on behind the scenes, even for my dad, my dad was struggling so much in his personal life during some of the most exciting times of his career. You know, when they won the tag titles for the first time, my dad was really struggling. And I know because I lived through that with my dad. Um, and- When you say struggling, what do you mean?

Substance? Just struggling, yeah. With substance abuse, with keeping it together. I think it was so much pressure for my dad because he didn't, back then, they didn't have the resources that we have now in WWE. We've got every resource in the book. WWE has everything we need to succeed and more.

If you're going through something as far as mental health, they've got somebody there for you. If you're, if you're dealing with a concussion, we've got a whole team of people that work with us on that. If you're dealing with, if you're dealing with the substance abuse issue, WWE has a whole team of people that deal with that. Like there's every sort of resource we could have now because the company is such a well-oiled machine back in the eighties. Like they, they didn't have all that. Like there's every sort of resource we could have now because the company is such a well-oiled machine. Back in the eighties, like they didn't

have all that. So when professional athletes go through stuff with it, you know, which is common now, we talk about, you know, mental health and sports. Simone Biles was a huge catalyst in all of that. You know, basically bringing to light like, hey, mental health is extremely important and just because I'm the best in the world doesn't mean that I'm not dealing with it. But my dad growing up, you know, he suffered from depression, he suffered from anxiety, he suffered from a lot. And then he was on the road, 280, 300 days a year. And he was just never home. So when he was home, he was just he had like like two days to kind of rehab his body and, you know, rest

and catch up and pay bills and do all this stuff. So like, he was just physically exhausted, mentally exhausted. And of course they didn't have back then they didn't have guaranteed contracts. So if you got a little banged up or you had, you know, situations, you had to kind of work through it, otherwise you don't, you know, pay your bills.

So, so, you know, growing up with my dad and all that volatility, it's just, Brett really was an anchor for my dad. There he is, the big man right there, the legend. And my dad is just like, he's one of my greatest inspirations and we like, I love my story that I share with my dad. Like it's, he's the main character in my book,

but Brett really helped him so much. Brett, my dad would Like it's, it's, it's, he's the main character in my book, but Brett really helped him so much. Brett, my dad would have never had the career that he had in WWE without the support of my mom having his back at home and Brett having his back on the road and having that incredible support system. Like it's just, we all need that, but like my dad needed it more than others. And like, that's why I just, I want to give Brad his flowers cause he, he's, he's really a huge reason for why my dad had the success that he had because he had my dad's back. What's interesting is you witness some of this, like in the book, you talk

about some, some really dark days. Um, your car getting repossessed, your family car house foreclosure, you go from being the richest family on the block to the poorest family because of these ups and downs. You shared a letter from Vince McMahon to your mother about why he was having to release your father. And so you witness all of this, all this heartbreak, and yet you go into that same business. Most people would say, I want nothing to do with this.

Look at what it did to my dad. Why would you follow in those footsteps if you saw what it did to him? As much, as hard as it was at times for our family because, you know, there's a time, I don't know if you got, did you get the chapter about us moving into the hard house? Yes, yes, of course. So when, you know, there's a moment in the book we discuss, we lost our home. Yes. So we weren't homeless because we had my grandfather's house to live in. So my mom and my sisters and I moved into the Hart House in Calgary. So like I said,

we weren't homeless because we had the Hart House to move into and we moved into a room in that house and us four. And what was right outside my ring or what was right outside my window, what it was right outside the room was the ring, the wrestling ring. My grandfather had a wrestling ring in his yard. And when I looked like as even as a teenager and I looked outside like the window of that room that my mom and my sisters and I shared a bed in. Wow. There was a wrestling ring, you know, so it was like this,

it was just this subconscious feeling of like wrestling was always our anchor. It brought us the best and it sometimes brought us the worst. It gave us the most amazing moments like Wrestle Manias. And it, my family has literally lived and died for it. So that ring was just like that visual of the ring that my grandfather actually designed and built. He had his own ring and he just welded it, designed it, all of it. It was his design and it was a 20 by 20 foot ring in the hard on

the hard house property but that ring was right outside the lawn of like it was just you know with if you lived in that area and you were walking your dog you'd see a wrestling ring on the lawn and it was just when you know, with if you lived in that area and you were walking your dog, you'd see a wrestling ring on the lawn. And it was just when I looked out the window, that's what was there. And so that's also really, you know, there's a lot of very. Cool moments in the book where, like, as I, I didn't realize that until I started writing it, that I was like, Holy shit, this like, there's been so many aha moments while, while, while writing it, that I was like.

I knew that like wrestling would be what saved me like I knew I knew that it would be what grounded me it was the only thing that I when I started doing it when I started like my very first day in the dungeon with TJ I just fell in love with it it was like it was an addiction it was so fun I got such a high off of it that I just wanted to keep doing it. I had so much fun. I just felt so much like instant passion for it. And that's the thing is that when you start doing this,

you start to realize how much fun it is. There's nothing like it. You need to see Travis Scott. And he's talking, I love that clip where he's talking to Triple H about like, you don't wanna do more of this. And Triple H says like, isn't it fun? Like there's nothing like it.

It's just, there's nothing like it. Even at the smallest scale, like in a little room in the heart, like the dungeon, which is just a small little room in the basement of the hard house or in front of a hundred thousand people, which I've performed in front of. Like it's just so much fun.

Why do you think your sisters never followed? They are totally opposite of me. Okay. Like they're- Did they even dabble? Did they try? They- I mean, no. Like they're just, you know, they're totally different than me. And that's the thing is that we're all- all three of us are very different, but I'm so grateful that I was able to like do it because it's something that brought my dad and I really close together. Like he didn't initially want me doing it and I've spoken about that before in interviews. He did not want me doing it at all. And then he started to see, he came to one of my shows. It was only in front of like 50 people was at the Ogden

Legion in Calgary. It was like a very small... Stan Pichot? Yes, Stanford Wrestling. And he was so excited. He saw me through a forearm and he was like afterwards he like came backstage and he was so excited. He saw me through a forearm and he was like, afterwards he like came backstage and he was like, I didn't even know he was there because I had asked him to come to the show and he was he was late getting there and I was like, oh he probably is not gonna come like he's I'm sure he's not gonna come. And I had it in my mind that he wasn't gonna come. And then I was

in the ring and I could see him like from a doorway just watching and and he fell in love with what I was doing so it was just like it brought us closer it brought us it gave us a different relationship that like I said after I wrote the book and got to the end I was like I'm so so happy that we gotta share that together. Like it was just so special that we got that. And not everybody gets that with their parent, not everybody gets to have that. So and I think that's what makes Charlotte and Rick,

you know, like I love Ashley because for many, many reasons I love Ashley, but she has that special bond with her dad through the good, bad and everything in between. Like it's so special, Same with the rock. Same with the rock and his father, you know, I know their relationships are complex. You know, Dwayne has spoken about his, his dad having a complex relationship with him, but great at the same time, like when you get to share that with your

parent, it's just like such a unique experience. And nobody understands it because unless you're really in the trenches, like we are, nobody really gets it. You know, I was saying that to Brett the other day, we were talking and I was just talking about the book. And I was saying, cause I love Brett's book. It was actually Brett,

it was Brett and Becky Lynch that inspired me to want to write a book. Cause I loved Becky's book. If you haven't read Becky's book, sorry, I've been so emotional. I feel like it's been like a therapy session. But Becky Lynch's book is phenomenal. And after reading that book and listening to the audio version as well, I was like, I really want to write a book. And so it was Becky's book that inspired me a lot. And then Brett Hart's book, I mean,

it's a New York Times bestseller. It was, but Brett's book, I just, his book is really special. He's very, very honest. And that's the great thing about Brett is that not everybody's going to like what he says and not everybody's going to agree with it, but he's, he's very, very honest and he's very real and he's very, um, he's just, he's got a great recollection. And he, he told me, he said when he was, you know, and he's spoken about this before too, but when he was, um, on the road way, like his very first years in wrestling, he'd carry like a tape recorder and he would talk into his tape recorder after his matches.

And he told me, he's like, Natty, you need to keep a journal of everything after, after the shows and talk about how that match made you feel and what it was like working with this person and your day's events and things that were happening at home and he kept like a journal throughout his whole career. And so I actually have done that. I have like thousands of notes about people that I've wrestled

and those nights and those moments. And so I'm so happy that I'm able to have all that documented and to be able to do that because Brett really inspired me with you know he was able to go back and recount certain situations and certain things and really you know he was also super self-deprecating in it. Oh it's great like the book was phenomenal it was quite thick I wrote it on my honeymoon I loved I adore Brett Hart like I don't know if you truly understand how much I adore your uncle. I adore this man. And when I see things like,

they paid homage to him at elimination chamber and your father with the heart attack in the main event. Did you see that? This stuff makes me feel so great because he's the first famous person that I ever loved. You know what I mean? I told you the story about being a kid

and my mom told me to close my eyes when I'm at the doctor's saying, think of something that you love or think of something that makes you happy because I was so afraid of getting a needle, and I would think of him winning the title. That was my happy place. That's how much I adore this man.

But you know what's crazy? March 11th is today, I don't know if you know this, March 11th, 1983, very special day for your father. He became a Stampede Wrestling Tag Team Champion for the second time with his partner, Mr. Hito. Do you know this man? Here it is. I want to watch it with you. Here's the finish right here.

The great Jim D'Andre Nighthart. At the time, just known as Jim Nighthart, he's there in the red trunks. You see him? I do. Oh, my gosh. You ever see this match? No, I feel like I've watched so much wrestling that I have seen it, but I haven't seen it in a minute. March 11th 1983, Wow. Night Heart and Kido win the Stampede International Tag Team

Championships beating Duke Myers and Kerry Brown and there's the finish right there. I love this stuff. Gordon Soley on the mic. A malfunction at the junction. Look at him. That's incredible. How old is he in 1983? He was born in 55. Okay. So I'm not good at math. I actually got like a 17% in my math. 28? He was young. He was young. And then we see a promo here from... Do we have the promo? Do we have the post-match promo from Jim? I'm so excited to see all of it. Do we have it? There. It's beautiful, Ed. I'll tell you something, Ron and Myers. Hito and I are not going to run away from these belts. We're going to put them up every match, and we have to. We're not going to hide behind them.

If we have to fight the Assassin and Miller, we'll do it. We'll put it up any time. We won't sit back for two or three months and not put up a title bout. I am now tonight six-time, six times you had very lucky big, big, big. 42 years ago today. Isn't that crazy? You are. I love that you're a wrestler. I have some help. I have some help. You're a wrestling historian. I love that stuff. Yeah. You just, you're always so respectful to like our industry and you know

it's one of the reasons why I really wanted to speak with you today and of course share this news because I just love how You know, you're just like you ask great questions and you know, some of them aren't always easy to answer But you're honest you're real and I think that's like I think it's so good Especially this day and age when like honesty Especially in the wrestling world right because now you now you guys, and by the way, speaking to the microphone so we can hear you. Oh yes, sorry, I'm just like, I feel like we're just having coffee.

I know, I know, this is great. We're having coffee. The times have changed a little bit, right? Because, excuse me, I'm getting emotional too. You guys, it's almost like the old school way of, you see The Rock do a post-fight press conference or a post-match press conference or post match press conference after the whole Cena thing at you and he's talking about his character could you imagine

what your dad and Brett would think of that in the 80s where those lines are being blurred at the same event you're doing an interview talking about what happened but outside of the character you like this or no so different it's so so different because sometimes you just don't know what's what's what's allowed and what's not it It's, well, it gets you really thinking. Like it's, I look back to Cody Rhodes and Jay Uso, they were doing, this is a long time ago, but they were doing like a press conference after a match and they had a shot or something together.

And they were so funny. You could tell that they were like a little drunk, but it was so funny. And like, I love it when you kind of pull down that fourth wall. You know what I mean? And I think like, it's just,. And like, I love it when you kind of pull down that fourth wall. You know what I mean? And I think like, it's just, yeah, like it's, it's, I think we're doing a lot more of that in WWE and like, it's, it's fun because I feel like, I feel like now for

the first time in my 18 years of being in WWE and having grown up in it, I always felt, and that's what I was saying earlier, I just always felt like I had to be perfect. Especially when Vince McMahon was in charge. Like, I just had to be perfect. I had to show him that, like, I was going to be the exact opposite of what my dad was. And I could be so professional, and I could just do everything that everybody wanted and say all the right things

and do all the right things. And what I love right now is that Triple H and the powers that be, Nick Khan and our bosses, they're not expecting us to be perfect. They're not, you know, they're letting us be real. And so when I had asked to do Bloodsport and when I asked to do Billy Corgan's show NWA, I very, very much wanted to do it. I fought very hard to do it because I was like, I really want to make this happen. Of course, with scheduling and like, it's WrestleMania week, we have to make sure everything kind of aligns.

They were both, both Nick and Triple H were both super supportive of it. They were like, yeah, that sounds awesome. No problem. Like it was, you know, granted we have to make sure, you know, again, scheduling and that it's the right fit and we have all the proper things aligned so that it's, it's, it's good for everyone.

But like, I could never have even dreamed of doing that prior. you know what I mean? Because- Is there more of that to come for you? There is. Oh, there is? Yes. Anything you can tell us?

That will be on the next stop for the Natty World Tour. Okay, okay. But there is, and I want, like that's why doing NWA is so important to me. Not only is Billy Corgan a really good friend of mine, I met him in 2006 at Brett's Hall of Fame ceremony. Oh, wow. And he introduced himself to me.

He was with Mick Foley. And he came up to me and he was like, I'm a huge fan of wrestling. And he's a fan of all wrestling. He loves wrestling. And so it was no surprise to me that he bought the NWA library. Yeah.

He loves old school wrestling. He's a student of the game. But he is also an artist. And so Billy is all about the art. But he is also an artist. And so Billy is all about the art. You know, when you think about him and you think about his music and you think about like I went to one of his NWA shows and I was so impressed by how it was run.

And I was like, of course, it's run like this. Of course, it's super professional because Billy's a rock star. He's a massive rock star. You know, he sells out MSG. So he knows what it's like to put on a beautiful production. And so being at a show backstage a little while ago, I was like, I really want to do Billy's show. And now, now with the vibe being so different in WWE and like us being allowed to do more stuff and have more opportunities and not just like, oh on Raw or on SmackDown, like I want to show

what I can do in all sorts of different spaces. I want to show what I can do in a bloodsport space. I want to show what I can do with Billy Corgan's, with NWA. And again, more shows, more things are coming, but I'm not going to give too many spoilers. Okay, okay, okay. But it's exciting because one of the things I love, and this is what Brett was amazing for his entire career, I love giving back. And I will

never not say that I love it. I love it so much, but I want more. I want to do more. I want to be more. I want to be better, but I also want to help other people be better. I think when we all work together to be better, it just makes for a better product. So whomever I work with in Billy Corgan's, in NWA, I want them to go, wow, holy shit. I just learned so much. When I do stuff at NXT, like I was working with Carmen and I was working with Lola Weiss, I had this incredible underground match with Lola Weiss.

And I had so much fun. It was probably my favorite match that I did last year. And after the match, you know, like it was such a, I wanted it to be such a learning experience for her, but also for me, you know, and, and that's the thing is that I, the second fit Finley told me this and fit Finley is one of the greatest professional wrestlers that ever lived, you know, and he's, he could still kill people with his bare hands if he was, if he needed to, cause he's, he's amazing. But he told me the second that you stop learning and the second that you, you don't think you need to learn or that you don't think you need to grow or that

you've got it all figured out as a second that you need to hang it up. And so I always thought about those words that fit told me and like fit, even now having been so deep into this, he's still a student of the game that was our producer for the underground match. And I learned so much and I was like, wow, Fit opened my eyes to things that I never knew, and then I was able to transfer that to Lola, and then she was able to grow out of it.

It's about growing everyone and growing myself. Like, and it's funny because I sometimes I'll see, I was talking about this a little bit the other day on Busted Open Radio, but I was about, like, sometimes I'll see headlines and like, somebody will be like, Natalia's this, or you know, so and so's that, or it's like, at I was about like, sometimes you'll see headlines and like somebody will be like, Natalia is this or you know, so and so is that or, it's like at first you're like, whoa, wait, what?

Wait, why are they saying this about me? But sometimes they're right. And that's what I said to Bubba, cause he had made a comment and I was like, Bubba, no shit. Like- He was critical and you, He was critical.

Your feelings were a little bit hurt, right? He was critical and he- What did he say? He just said something along the lines of like, WWE hasn't done anything with Nattie. Something along those lines. But here's my thing is that's why I'm taking a chance on myself in a way that I've never done before. And I need to.

I need to run the gauntlet on my career to prove. To prove. I love this. Yeah, it's so important to me. That's why I've bought so hard to do more. And I'm excited to do more outside of my regular space. It's so easy. Like it's like I said earlier, I sleep in a nice bed. I don't sleep well because I'm so hungry. I wake up and I'm hungry. Like I just want to do more. And that's why I started writing the book. That's why I coach. I'm like, I train in my dungeon on my days off. I,

I was in there last week, three different times with a group of three different, you know, three different groups working on all sorts of stuff, training for blood sport, training for WWE, training with, you know, my cousin, Harry Smith came in and he was coaching. It's like, I'm so hungry. And I'm about to announce a couple of other projects that I'm working on, but like, I don't, I just want to do everything. Like I don't go to bed comfortable thinking like, Oh, I've got it all figured out now and I'm just so comfortable. Like, like that's what I love about Becky.

You know, that's what I love. She, um, she always wants to grow and do more. And sometimes, you know, when women want more, we may be perceived as being difficult or, you know, but it's, it's important. And sometimes, you know, when women want more, we may be perceived as being difficult or, you know, but it's important to have growth, you know, like just because I've been doing this a long time doesn't mean that I don't need and want more. But you have also like for me,

I have to take it upon myself to make those changes happen. I can't just expect the wrestling business doesn't owe me anything. It doesn't owe me anything. The wrestling business owes none of us anything. And so- I would argue if there's one family that is owed, it's your family. I know that's a cliche, but like honestly, the wrestling gods owe you guys a lot. Well, thank you. But I just try to wake up with not having that sense of entitlement,

but going, what? There's the family right there. We were just showing your family. Oh, I love that. Look at this family right here. I mean, this is royalty. That's the family right there. We were just showing your family. Look at this family right here. I mean, this is royalty That's the heart of this is Canadian royalty. This is wrestling royalty Greatest family in in wrestling history. There's not even a question you um, I'm so proud of my family But like for me, I I never feel like I'm owed anything I always want to earn my spot the division the women's division in WWE has never been this strong ever

It has never been so competitive When I look at the women in NXT and I look at been so competitive. When I look at the women in NXT and I look at the women on Raw and I look at the women on SmackDown, I'm like this is the greatest women's like as a whole collectively this is the strongest that it's ever been. And who helped ushered in that era? Thank you. Pioneer, the trailblazer, you know it. Well and the thing is though is that I don't rest on all the things that I've done. I don't go, wow, I did this, or I have this, or I did that, or I had this match. I've had some incredible matches.

You know, one of my favorite matches of my entire career is again, Charlotte Flair Takeover 2014. It was a very, very first takeover. And it was only in front of 200 people. And I love that match more than any WrestleMania that I've ever done. It was like just such a special, special match and it was at NXT, but I, I'd never just rely on great matches or things that I've done in the past.

Like for me, I think you got to earn your spot. So in all seriousness, I feel like I need to step outside of WWE to work my way back in. Wow. I mean, that's a profound statement in itself. I spoke to you around three years ago, two and a half years ago in Las Vegas before Money in the Bank when you were going up against Ronda Rousey. It was the morning of the match,

and I asked you at the very end, like, what's there left for you to do? You've done it all, and you said, I want to headline WrestleMania. That's like the last thing. Now, speaking to you two and a half years later, it feels like the goal is completely different. Oh, I still want to headline WrestleMania.

You still, but there's things that are lighting a fire under you. This is a different person that I'm speaking to. There's a chip on your shoulder. Yeah, and I think you have to have that. You know what I mean? You have to want more for yourself. You cannot rest on, oh, well, I'm in WWE. It's funny because, again, writing the book, I realized because I had to go back

and go through all my journals and go through like my life. And I realized to get the contract with WWE was so hard. People, again, that's all documented in the story, but, and it was so, so hard to get it. And then once I got into developmental, signed my first WWE contract for $24,000 a year. I was so excited. I was, I felt like I was the richest person in the world.

Um, it got even harder. I got to developmental and it was a struggle. It was, it was hard because it gets even more competitive. Right. Then I got called up to smack down and it got even harder. And then all these years later, 18 years later, I realized this is hard. Holy shit. This is hard. Holy shit, this is hard.

This is so hard, but I love it because you never stop growing. And I think that's why it's all so addicting because, you know, like when I look at, for example, he's going into the Hall of Fame this year, but Triple H, like look at all the different things that he's done in his career. He started out as a talent.

He's always loved wrestling history. He's like a student of the game when it comes to like, if you talk about old school wrestling with Triple H, like Buddy Rogers and like old, old school stuff, he loves collecting all that stuff. Like gorgeous George and like he loves wrestling history. He started out as a performer and then he started working his way behind the scenes to learn how all that works. And so, and it's so important to do that because not, we're not

all going to wrestle forever. So he started learning the ins and outs, but it's not just about like when you're a talent and I know this because my husband is a producer. He's he's TJ has said, he's like, it's so different when you're a producer because there's so much other stuff that you have to look at. He's not just a wrestling coach at all. When you work in WWE, you're like as a producer, you're a television producer. Yeah. You got to figure out angles, especially now with us being on Netflix, everything is

geared towards television. It's entertainment. It's all, you know, it's, it's there's so many different factors that you have to look at. So you see the transition from Triple H as a talent to working behind the scenes to the role that he has now. And it's just been like, it's been a slow progression of building, building, building, building, growing, growing, growing. And then you realize like, oh, those are the things that like, you learn, you make mistakes, you learn from them, you make gains, you have losses. Oh, this didn't work. I wonder why that didn't work. Or that worked great. Let's do more of that. Or it's all just a learning experience, but it's, it's also fun because no day is ever

the same. No crowd is ever the same, no show is ever the same. There's all sorts of manipulating variables that make what we do in WWE so different and so challenging at times too. I mean, I've been in like situations where there was a volcano in Europe and nobody could get back and they had to completely rewrite raw

with all like people that weren't supposed to be on the show sort of thing. But like even through the pandemic, when be on the show sort of thing. You know, but like even through the pandemic, um, you know, when we did the show through the pandemic, we never missed anything. We kept going and going and going and going. And during that time, we, a lot of people kept their jobs because our show kept going, we led the way for WWE really led the way for so many other places that kind of have the courage to keep going, you know, in sports, like we were kind of the,

I feel like we were the leaders of that, where it was like, listen, even during the most crucial times in people's lives, we still need entertainment, we still need an outlet. And so, like, I think about all of that, you know? I loved working during the pandemic. It was- You did, in front of no one.

Even though there was no- You were allowed to try things different? It was just a different challenge. Yeah. It was a different challenge. Yeah. It was a different challenge, and it really brought all of us girls, especially in the locker room, it brought us all really closer together. And the locker room is such a special place.

Like, it is such a sacred place. It is so special. And even this past Royal Rumble, we had the rumble. And then we had a big toast in the locker room, and I loved that all of us girls came together, I'm not gonna say all of us, but a good portion of us came together, because, I'm not saying all of us, because I don't wanna break, you know.

I'm old school like that. I can't act like people that are challenging each other. No, no, no, driving in the same car, that's crazy. Driving in the same car, I know. Trust me, when my dad was working for my Driving in the same car, that's crazy. Driving in the same car, I know. Trust me, when my dad was working for my grandfather in Stampede Wrestling, if you were a heel, you couldn't ride with the baby face. And if you were caught doing that, it was a big deal.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. My grandfather was like, even when people would come over to get their paycheck, because my grandmother, she was the one that gave Andre the Giant his paycheck. They had to, the kids, my mom growing up, she was so scared of the heels when they would come in the kitchen and ask for their money. And it'd be like, you know, these bad guys, and they would have to kind of remain in character

because the kids didn't know that it was like, so I digress, but doing a big toast after the Women's Royal Rumble, it was so special because it just reminded me of like, like, we all just love this and we all want to do great work and we all need each other. You know what I mean? And so I love those moments because you don't get those moments. That's why the women's locker room, especially it's so special. We had really experienced that closeness during the pandemic and I love those times, but like those are the moments too that are like, I was saying that when I was working on my book, I was saying that like, some of the best moments

in my career weren't always in the ring. They were behind the scenes where you're hugging somebody after a match. Like I worked with Lacey Evans in Saudi Arabia and we did the first ever women's match in Saudi Arabia. And it was just like, we came back and like we were the first women to perform in Saudi Arabia and we did the first ever women's match in Saudi Arabia. And it was just like we came back and like we were the first women to perform in Saudi Arabia. And we had this incredible like embrace after and like it was so like I'll never forget it. But she got on the phone and called her little daughter up and she's like I did this for you. You know and she was crying her daughter was crying but like it was such a like transcending

moment for like women. And I just remember those times where it's like, this business can really make you feel a certain way, and a lot of the times it's in the best way. Wow. What a life. What a freaking life. What stories, what passion. There's still so much in the story.

I wanna read the rest of the book now. Is it October 28th that it comes out? I believe so, yes. Can people pre-order it yet? You can pre-order it yet? You can pre-order it today. Yes, okay, wow. So I'll put a link up on my, link in my bio.

Yes, and you have a forward by The Rock and a preface by Bret Hart. So actually I want to do a double forward by both of them. Oh my gosh. So we're still working on that. Listen, those are two pretty big names. Yeah, I wanted Bret and the rock to do the forward So and both of them are you know such inspirations to me and of course

You know, it's very very important to me to be able to like You know collaborate with two people that of course have grown up in this and have loved this as much as I do and just Contributed in different ways. So they're both massive inspirations for me. So One last question before I let you go and for we could talk for three hours and just contribute in different ways. So they're both massive inspirations for me. One last question before I let you go. We could talk for three hours, but we have to go, unfortunately. Could I just get your opinion as someone who's been in the business, John Cena turning heel?

Ooh, well, I've said this before, and I'm gonna say it again. Let me have a little sip of this tea. Yes, okay, okay. Oh, I know what you're gonna say. I know what you're gonna say. Can I guess? You can guess. You're gonna say. I know what you're gonna say. Can I guess? You can guess.

You're gonna say, if you watch Total Divas, you saw this version of John Cena, right? So I was on every damned episode of Total Divas. But this is different, no? No, but like it's funny, cause I joke about it, cause John is like, listen, in real life, John is a damn sweetheart. He is one of the most generous, kind,

compassionate people that you will ever meet. But if you go to John Cena's house, you better damn well take your shoes off and you better use a coaster. I respect that. I saw that one scene where his girlfriend at the time puts the wine glass on the island. Yes.

He gets mad about this. And he's, but this is the thing is that if, and John Cena says it's, it's, this is his, you know, prior to turning heel, he said that this was, you know, his final run in WWE. So he, so he basically has got to just like pull out every stop. And the one thing that everybody's been wanting to see him do is turn heel. And I think that like, when I look at Roman Reigns, I think the best work that Roman's ever done is as a heel. He's so exciting that he actually turned himself to being a baby face because

people just love him so much because it's just the world is different now. So now like John Cena's heel turn was the most viewed thing ever in wrestling. But it's cool because that's again, the exciting thing about WWE is that you just want to see what's going to happen next. That's why our company is on fire. Literally we're doing so well because it's like reading a great book. You want to know what the next chapter is going to be. You want to get to like, you want to get to the juicy stuff. And that's why I'm excited for people to read my book because we just shared a little bit, but there's so much more to share. There's a lot of thought-provoking conversations. There's

stuff that people might not also agree with, but it's my story. It's my story. It's my journey. It's the way I saw it. And it's the stuff that happened to me and it's through my eyes. And it's funny because in Becky Lynch's book, she has a little disclaimer at the front. She's like, listen, I've been body slammed a lot. So this is how I saw it. This is how I remembered it. And I told Becky, I love that cause this is, this is how I remember it. And you know, there's a lot of, there's going to be some really important conversations that we're going to have

that we've never had before in WWE. Like we've never publicly talked about, but WWE and the powers that we are letting me discuss them for the first time in this book. So it's scary. It's scary to think about talking about them, but like in talking with my family and my mom and my sisters, like we all agree that it's gonna be very powerful and I think it'll help change people's lives.

So thank you so much. It's very, very well written. It's very honest. Just, yeah, I got to read like three, four chapters, five chapters yesterday. Yes, I said you said chapters. And it's, honest. Just, yeah, I got to read like three, four chapters, five chapters yesterday. And I was like, wow, you go into it. You go into it and there's a lot that's happened to you. So I urge everyone to pre-order.

I urge everyone to check it out. And maybe when it comes out, you can come back on. Yes. In October or anytime. You're welcome here anytime. You're welcome here anytime. And please say hello to your family, to your uncle, Tom. I love him dearly

and he's my hero. Oh, I will and Brett is like, he's my hero too. I love Brett and he's, listen, nobody does pink and black like Brett does, but like, Still, to this day, the greatest of all time. If somebody was gonna do it almost as good, I definitely think it would be me. Oh my God, you have carried the flag.

You have done that tremendously and the torch. Well, I've had great people that are like amazing. I'm an amazing family and amazing role models to look up to and just I'm so lucky and so grateful that like my family has been able to help me get to where I'm at today. And that I'm still able to do the things that I love in WWE because you know, it's not easy to have made it this far but I'm also like, if it all ended for me tomorrow.

It has been the best ride. Now the ride's not over. You know, not a great year coming up and got some great stuff coming up. And by the way, I'm definitely going to be a champion again. So mark my words, if I'm not a champion by this year, then you know what? Then we can talk about the ride being over. All right. Thank you so much, Natalia can talk about the ride being over. All right. Thank you so much, Natalia Neidhart,

one of one pioneer, trailblazer, future Hall of Famer from the most famous and best family in wrestling history. We're gonna take a quick break. We'll be back with Rafael Faziv, don't go anywhere. We appreciate you watching. All right, we are back on the program. It is great to be back. It's been a great day.

It's been a roller coaster of a day. From Lou DiBella to Natalia Neidhart, some emotion, some tears, incredible stories. I can't wait to read the rest of the book, so I'm looking forward to that very much. But for now, let us say hello to our final guest of the day. He was in action on Saturday at UFC 313 a hard-fought fight against one Justin Gage a fight that I thought he actually won. I still do

I don't care what anyone has to say Let's say hello once again to Rafael Fazeve who is kind enough to join us back in the same spot as last week It's like nothing happened. Hello, Rafael, how are you? I'm suffering, I'm suffering. I'm good, I'm good. Can I tell you something? I feel like I'm the only one who has said this

and I didn't say it because I thought you were coming on. I got into an argument with my friends on the show yesterday. I thought you won that fight. Am I crazy? Bro, bro. You agree? Just saying what do you use sometimes? I use also maybe. No, no, listen. One-one going into the third, one-one going into the third, the number one criteria in judging is damage, right? And in the first half of the third

round your body kicks and your punches to the body I thought inflicted more damage than the second half of the third round which he won but I thought you inflicted more damage in that third round in the first half. I think you know what this uppercut changed all this fight yeah honestly this uppercut changed all this fight. Yeah honestly, this uppercut is like And when I when I stand up from this uppercut on second round You know, I was like in this mail and everything like this on my head like I don't know how I stay and When I going to sit before round round three

I'm sitting and still is Disneyland. And like round three, like beginning of the round, maybe first two minutes or one and a half minute, it was also Disneyland. And all my life I thinking like, oh, if somebody punch me so hard, then I going to knock down like I have, can I stand up? Can I stand up and

continue the fight or not? All my life I'm thinking about that. And this is the first time and I'm like, oh, I get it. I stand up and I finish the fight. Good. Okay. So we talked when we spoke before the fight about your layoff. In the end, how did you feel out there? It had been a year and a half since your last fight. How did your body feel? How did your cardio feel? Cardio is not too good because it's short noticed. I'm short noticed and I'm not prepared. I'm not prepared to the fight. But mentally when I go to the fight, man, the first time in my life I smile so much before a fight when I go.

Wow. And I have like 250 fights in my career, like almost 300 maybe. And I never smile, never. And this time I go smile, I'm enjoying, I'm relaxing. I know my people support me, I know a lot of fans are going to love this fight. These two years I know fights, I don't feel it's happening, you know, I just know fights maybe one month, I feel like that. So, man, it's so good. But I'm sad because I'm lost, because I want to win I I do all my best on this fight, but

But still you know like I'm I feel so good during in the fight Do you really feel this way you say you wrote afterwards? Sorry guys? I let you down and didn't get the win Congratulations to Justin it was great to share the octagon with you Do you really feel like you let your fans down because if I'm a fan of? Rafael Fazeve on Saturday, I'm proud of you. You take this fight on short notice, 10 days notice against one of the best fighters in the world, that 155.

You haven't fought in a year and a half, serious knee injury. I don't think you let anyone down. Yeah, no, no, no, not anyone down. But I know one thing, people love the winners. And this is true what we have to know. People love the winners. No problem. Maybe I'm sad first night, so sad, but right now I'm okay. I see how people enjoy it. I think how people like this fight. And this is for me more important than sad moments.

You just said you were smiling. It was the happiest you ever were walking to the cage. Why do you think that was? Was it because of the layoff? Because you haven't done it in so long and you realize how much you missed it? Yeah, yeah. Because I missed it so much, because I waited so much. And my walkout music, I represent all my Shia community, my Shia brothers and sisters, and I hear, I know what they're feeling when they hear that.

I know what they're feeling, they hear that. I know what they're feeling and I feeling the same. And when I go like, I'm like, ooh, the best emotions in my life. I liked your hair by the way. I liked the cornrows. Oh yeah, bro, I just woke up right now. My hair is like a homeless guy and I just put it together.

But in the fight, I liked what you did, the cornrows, that was nice. Did you like it? The braids? Yeah, I like it too, but it's so itchy, itchy. And all fight I feel like I have hat on my head. Oh wow. Hat on my head.

I feel something on my head, you know, and after fight straight away, I told to my guys like, I take it off. It's look good, it's look good, but honestly, it feels not too good. Can I ask, a little bit was made about his gloves, that it didn't have the logo on it. What did you think of this?

I don't know, I didn't see it. I just see it like after fights, like everybody talk about that. Everybody talk about that after fight. And only after fight, next day I see that, oh, he now has logo. But during the fight, I don't think about that. Do you think something was up?

Cause they said that he was hitting so hard in the back that the logo came off. But honestly, all my years of watching UFC, I've never seen this before. I've never seen the logo come off the gloves. So do you believe that or do you think it was something else? I don't know. I don't know.

Maybe, he hit hard, man. I fight with one guy, but my face, like I fight with 10 guys, man. So he hit hard and maybe, who knows, maybe he punched the pads or what he punched before the fight and the logo go out. I don't know maybe. Okay. Have you rewatched the fight? I rewatched just a very little bit. I want to watch it because my UFC fight pass, my UFC program in my phone is not open in America. I don't know why it's only working in Thailand.

Yeah, because there's different deals because here in America it has to be ESPN plus and over there it's fight pass. Someone I'm sure I'll get you a link. I'm just wondering based on what you remember from the fight, what you wish you could obviously just talked about the uppercut, but is there something you wish you could have done differently in the fight to secure the win? I do. You know, what I want to do, I do. I want to, when I go into the fight, I want to move a lot. I don't want to attack him a lot because I want to save energy. I want to split my energy to all rounds. And I try to call him to attacks.

But some, you know, when I do it, he still catch me when I attack him. But yeah, this time I make more, I follow my game plan 100% and I like it. And I like what happened. I just don't like this uppercut because it's changed this fight. What do you think happens? How does this fight play out if it's a five round fight? With short notice?

No, no. Regular fight, regular camp. Regular fight, regular camp, five rounds. For sure I believe it's going almost the same. If I follow the game plan, I have a lot of chance to win. And what is the game plan to beat him in your opinion? To call him to attacks, to play with him, play with him and not going to highlight like he liked the war, the close distance and all of these crazy moments. Yeah, more move, step back, move, call him, call him going forward. Yeah, that's what I have to do with him. You know what was really interesting? First round, two takedowns, successful takedowns from you,

but then no more takedowns. How come? Man, I'm surprised. You know when I take him down first time? I take him down first time and I say to him, bro, look, I take you down. You know, he say to me like, oh yeah, come on. And he stand up, we continue, he give me kick again,

I catch this again, again, we roll. And I tell him again, bro, look again, I can't take you down again. But second time I didn't hear anything from him. Yeah. Why didn't you try for more? I don't have plan to wrestle with him. It's happens just like, you know.

Why didn't you try for more takedowns? Because he, I don't know, I don't want to take damage to my leg. Maybe I'm a little bit worried about my injured leg, you know, because it's my left knee and he's kicked good. He has good locking. And maybe I protect the leg. That's why it happens but after he stopped to doing the low kicks and Yeah, maybe because of this how is your foot there was in it there was a cut on it, right Food is perfect. No problems. Yeah, it's no problem food is perfect. Okay both Your body feels okay now? Everything feels okay. Only my face little bit still have blue eyes and my stitches open.

Yeah. I saw afterwards you took a picture, you did a video with big bags of popcorn. Yeah. Did you eat that? Here you are, look at this. No man, we just on the back side, after fights, after I have stitches, I see the many popcorns and I say okay I want to make some video with that. But nobody telling me like hey you can take one and enjoy with that. And I just make the video and go. But I'm happy to take something with me. He said after the fight that he would like to fight for the belt next. How do you think he would do against Islam?

If he, I wish, I wish so much he can fight for the belt. I wish it so much man, And I think he deserves it more than everybody on this division. More than everybody for sure. And I hope he gets it. I'm with him, you know. If he fights against Islam, I'm with him. I'm on his side. Jared You think he deserves it more than Armin or Charles or even Ilya moving up? Armin Yes Charles or even Ilya moving up? Yes. Why? Oh, he deserved it before, before he go, go, no, he, he lost to Max and he lost to

Max and, um, and after the, after lost, you cannot fight to the belt, you know, but, uh, now he win me. I'm yes, I know I'm not big ranking, but still man, he's a star, he's a star, he has to fight to the belt. Everybody loves him, Arman has his chance, but what happens what happens. Chariz Alireza also, but I think Justin is the most tough guy who deserves it right now. And do you think he, knowing him like you know him now, you fought him twice, six rounds, do you think that he could beat Islam? It's hard. It's hard. Islam is a tough opponent. He has a huge wrestling, huge grappling.

And I think Justin has a little trouble with this, with grappling. He has some trouble with that. But he has to make good camp, work about it, getting ready for that. And he has a good chance, for that. And he have good chance for sure. He like to train. How quickly do you wanna return? Oh, it's just my skin on the face. I think three, four months I'm getting ready. I come back to home now and start work.

Honestly, I wanna go train right now to the gym. I wanna go some lifting. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. And do you have someone in mind who would make sense for you? Don't think about that still.

Don't think about that still, but I don't know. Who deserve fight with me or I deserve to fight somebody? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe, I don't know Gamroth? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe, I don't know, Gamroth, I don't know. I don't know what happened three months. He still, I think he only one guy who still not had fight. And you know, these guys who, I don't know, man, still, honestly, I don't think about that still. Okay. Have you thought about featherweight? Yep. Featherweight, you see I'm too small on this weight division. I take fights

short notice and when we're going to fight with Justin it's like this and like this, you know. This is me and this is Justin. So maybe I'm start to thinking right now about change weight division because I'm really cut weight very easy this time and this is short notice. Very easy bro. All this week my nutritionist Jason, he tried to gain my weight because my weight goes low so fast. Wow.

Yes. And yeah, right now I have to think maybe about it. So it's possible that your next fight is going to be at featherweight? Yes, it's possible. You think strong possibility? I think yes. Wow. Okay.

Is this something you've been thinking about for a while? I think about it a long time, yeah. Because like I said, I'm not big on this division and my body, I've always weighed so easy. So even though this fight was short notice, you didn't have to struggle. How much do you think you weighed on fight night? Or do you know, did you weigh yourself? During the fight? Yeah, like the next day. How much do you know, did you weigh yourself? During the fight, you mean? Yeah, like the next day, how much do you? 70-70, I'm 77 kg next day, 76 and a half, 77 kg, 170,

I wake up 161. 161, wow, and what do you think he was? Did you, you felt he was much bigger? I feel he big, man. When we go fight, I see the big guy, and when I kick him, I feel like I kick him with my fingers You know Wow have you um you you you've never fought at featherweight before right a Long time when just when I'm on the beginning okay in MMA

Yep, okay, but the obviously your UFC career has been 155 when you look at featherweight Are are there matchups that interest you? You mean some guys? Yeah. I also don't think about that. But I want to fight with top guys. Some of these guys are very interesting. All of these guys on top guys, they're very interesting. All of these guys on top 10, everybody very interesting. But you know, man, these guys have trouble if I come here.

They'll be in trouble. They'll be in trouble, man. Everybody. I think this is very interesting. I like this. Yeah, me too. Did you tell this to your team? Are they on board with it? Are they in agreement? Yeah, I tell this to the team and I'm going to check my bones, all of my body muscles,

bones, like I want to make sure I can do it like very, with good quality, you know, I don't want to rush. I want to check seven times and make it one good quality you know I don't want to rush I want to check seven times and make it one time you know. By the way did you watch the main event on Saturday? Yeah yeah the doctor makes stitches to me and they're watching the fight. Yeah what did you think of it about Alex's performance? Honestly unbelievable for uncle I've yeah when we when we sit with him and many people say, oh, press conference, I tell him, bro, you are new. You're in the new, you know, I tell him before

I make this video how he play game. Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. And but about Pereira, I think, bro, he is he fights so many times in his resource go down, you know? Yeah. I think just because he fight many times, it's this fight is going like that. He came, he came, he came fight much better. He needs to take a break. He can fight much better. He needs to take a break. I think too many fights, bro. Too many fights. Wow. So you think it's that and not Ankalayev's style,

the threat of the takedown, all that stuff? No, Ankalayev's style is also very good. He pressure him. He always scared him against takedowns. He tried to do takedowns again, pressure, pressure, pressure. It's hard to fight with guys like Uncle Mike that he did perfect. He did perfect. But still, I'm thinking about this like, oh, why Pireira fight not like Pireira, you know, because I think because many fights and and his resource just little down.

One name that I thought you would mention is maybe Mauricio Ruffi, this guy who made the kick before your fight at the start of the pay-per-view. Incredible fighter, this guy. He has kicks like you. You know what happened? I would sit and we watched the fight. And we watched the fight and like,

I sit to my corner and I say, guys, right now he knocked him out in two seconds. Wow! It's so funny. That's an incredible kick. So beautiful. So beautiful. That would be a fun fight, but he's now a different weight class. What do you say well he's what well he'd be 155 you're 145 if you're not 145 yes no okay sorry sorry sorry I

thought you were saying it's inevitable possible strong possibility yeah but you know all of these guys is new guys also Also this guy from... I was the guy who choked Johnny Turner. Yeah. To fight by a triangle. Bahamundes. All of these guys, they're going up, you know. They're going up and they deserve a fight with the top 15, top 10. And, you know, UFC.

You know, for me, is a fight with anybody, I'm always ready. I never say no to anybody. And so if UFC give me this fight, you know, I know how to fight with them. Well, that's why we love you. We wish you safe travels back home. You're going back to Thailand now? Yes, I going back to Thailand.

No, I still, I wanna go to DC. My flight is 16 and I. I want to go to DC. My flight is at 16. I want to go to DC, I want to go to Michigan to visit some of my friends, check my body, make sure I go into 145 with good quality. And go to Thailand. Come back to the beach and sun and all of this no stress country. Yes, this bullshit in America. By the way, next time we see you in action, you think it's 145? What are you feeling right now? Right now 50-50, man. I'm going to check it to Thursday. Okay. All right. Well, good luck. Thank you for coming on and talking about the fight.

I appreciate it very much. I wish you the best and a great fight, amazing right. Well, good luck. Thank you for coming on and talking about the fight. I appreciate it very much I wish you the best and a great fight amazing fight I still think you won the third round and you win the fight, but that's okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna drop it I'm gonna drop it and always appreciate your time and wish you the the best and the nice safe trip back home Thank you. Okay Talk to you soon. There he is the The great Rafael Fazeve with some breaking news right there. Strongly considering a move to 145 pounds and this obviously opens up a whole new list of opponents for him. We quickly saw that top 10. Can I see that top 10 again? That, that featherweight top 10. I mean, there's a lot of names there.

Brian Ortega is there and I feel like his days are numbered. I saw he just cut his hair. Yeah, chopped it right off. Yeah. I mean, Fazeeb, Lerone Murphy. It's nice. Oh, Yair Rodriguez. Yair or Pitbull versus.

Big jump, big jump there. Josh Emmett. I don't know if you can get that. Josh Emmett's not bad. Arnold Allen. I mean, jumping, going down. I think, I think he can, but just off the bat, would they give it to him? Yousuf Zallal. Can I. Oh, like that.

Can I just say how much I love the idea of him just like calling out prospects, like he'll be, he's like, I see a guy who's like, oh, I'm going to get that guy. I'm going to get that guy. I'm going to get that guy. I'm going to get that guy. I'm going to get that guy.

I'm going to get that guy. I'm going to get that guy. I'm going to get that guy. I'm going to get that guy. I'm going to get that guy. I'm going to get that guy. I'm going to get that guy. I'm going to getal? Can I? Oh, like that. Can I just say how much I love the idea of him just like calling out prospects? Like he'll be, he's like, I see Ignacio Bahamundes, sure, whatever. Like he's like, he's willing to take on

all comers, which I love. His demeanor with the giant beard and the goggle glasses. He's the man. It's great. Big fan. Big fan. Uh, I enjoy his, um, obviously his fighting

style again, I will maintain everyone was was off the rocker when they said that this was a bad replacement fight. You got that fight, which by the way was the fight of the night at UFC 313. I know it wasn't the greatest pay-per-view of all time, but it was an incredible. I'm going to give them some grace because they were they were fantasizing about what Gachiyan Hooker was going to be. I get that. But this was a great fight. And I said the same, like, how could you not be happy with this one as an alternative? I saw, by the way, I saw Islam's head coach,

Javier Mendez and others campaigning for the Gaiji fight saying the Gaiji fight makes sense with all due respect. I know they're managed by the same person and I know we're trying to keep it in the family here, but really like over, in what world does that make sense over Charles, over Armin and over the featherweight champion who's moving up.

It doesn't make sense. Really? Again, crazier things have happened. What do I always say? Alex Gustafson got a title shot coming off of a knockout loss, but there are people who I think deserve it a little bit more, no? And I guess deserve, deserve is a little bit more, no?

And I guess deserve, deserve is a fucking word. I mean, honestly, last year we sold, you know, I know circumstances were different, but like Poirier in a somewhat similar situation, I want to say BSD was like 11 or 12 when, when he beat him and he was coming off a knockout loss to just engage you before that. Yeah. Do you guys think there's a chance?

No, yeah, I definitely don't think it's going to happen. You both said yes and no at the exact same time. Yes. I don't think that's going to happen. A hundred percent think there's a chance. I think there's a chance. That Justin Gaethje is next for yourself? Why not? I said no.

Crazier things have happened. We just talked about it yesterday. Timing, availability. It's, it's every, every opportunity is based on that now. If Charles or Armin or whoever can't make it, Justin will slide right in there. I think Gail Yatevour will be ready to roll. I think it's good. every opportunity is based on that now. If Charles or Armin or whoever can't make it, Justin will slide right in there. I think Ilya Tavor will be ready to roll.

I think it's got to be. I think it's got to. By the way, wouldn't hate Justin versus Charles, Justin versus Armin. Like those. Justin Armin's fresh. Yeah. Justin versus the winner of Chandler versus Patti. The problem with the, the problem with the Ilya and, and Islam fight is if they are not on the same timeline, that's a big issue because you can't get into a situation where one is

waiting on the other and doesn't fight when they're ready. They need, they need these champions to be, they need at least Islam to be active because they need his belt to be defended because they need these pay-per-views. And so it's going to be a problem if, if Ilya can't make it on the date that Islam needs him to make it. And so I wouldn't be surprised if they go to another option, if he, if he can't.

But I also wouldn't be surprised if Ilya says, yeah, this is my shot. I'm taking it. So we'll see. But no, I wouldn't be shocked. I said to you guys, uh, hard out four o'clock. We, we played two on Tuesdays, so we have six minutes.

You did it. Oh, he said four. It's all good. Yes. You guys didn't hear that. I we we play two on Tuesdays so we have six minutes you did it oh it's so good yes you guys didn't hear that I thought we agreed on 342 are there super chats today Frankie yep there's one super chat why do you say with that tone it almost sounds like you're being bothered here we know something were you busy I think was more of a just the one oh okay wow all right yeah we didn't do that we didn't do that yesterday did we not okay hold on let's pull it up oh okay hold on let me hold on just hold on all right so writes in, do you know what movie that's from?

No I don't actually. What is it? Cable Guy? Oh yeah, I've only seen that once. But Salafingers writes in, will the UFC's new TV deal in 2026 affect other markets, i.e. in 2026 will anything change with Sportsnet in Canada? Oh no no no, These are different deals. Now I do think that at some point they're going to try to align all of them.

Like WWE did so well, it all came to a head. They did a great job of that. Um, and so it's probably in their best interest for everything to expire at the same time, but no, the, the sports net deal started last January, uh, they still got some years left on the TNT deal in, uh, in the UK and Ireland. Obviously America is coming to an end now. So no, I know we talk about it.

Let's be honest. It's the most lucrative of all their multimedia deals, but if you are a fan in Europe, in Canada, et cetera, it's not changing the way you'll be watching fights, at least in 26. What else? Um, there was a follow-up question to that, which was, what is your favorite rusty object?

My favorite rusty object. Um, I don't know. That seems like a trick question. It's a salad fingers reference. No, a what? South Park? Salad fingers. Not familiar.

That was the name of the super chat questioner. No, a what? South Park? Salad fingers. Not familiar. That was the name of the super chat questioner. No, not familiar. What else? That's it, man. Oh, I saw another one pop up. Did they take it away? I don't know.

I don't see it. Oh. Yeah, I see one right here. Oh. No, wait. Oh no. Which is it, man? We gotta have one or we don't have one?

Well, I did see... can someone, what the hell? Is Salad Fingers like a character? Yes. Yes. Oh, okay. I did see one. I see one here from Sucker Free. Yeah. Oh, okay, what does it say?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Where's it at? He says, does having Natty on- Yeah, that's the one I saw yeah, yeah Frank What's that? Sucker free five dollars or is this a Jordan? Yeah, like there's nothing in the the super chat Channel that we use the back here don't place blame on other people. Well, I'm just, I just see it. When we go one, we go all. He spent, you know, five good dollars on this question.

And I feel like, or, or, or were we trying to avoid it? Were you guys protecting me, which I appreciate. I certainly was not. Yeah, no. Jordan was though. That's what I'm here for. You know, I mentioned last, someone asked me last week, um, who was the most loyal

on the team and then PT texted me after saying that he couldn't believe that I mentioned him because he says that Rick has exemplified way more loyalty. And I said, you know what? You're right. You're right. Oh, wow. A week later. How nice.

I feel so good now. Were you pissed about that? I mean, you know, how many years we've got in the game together. That was, that was kind of a slap in the face. Wow. You know what? I forgot. I'm glad a week later, I'm glad a week later.

And I wanted to, I wanted to write that wrong. I wanted to write that wrong, but by the way, shout out to PT. PT, PT called it out. He's, he's a, he's a good lad. No, he's, he's right. Those are the rankings. Uh, Rick, PT, I'd say Jordan. Hey, I'll take it. Nah, Andy, Andy above, Andy above Pizzi. I'd say Jordan. Hey, I'll take it.

Nah, Andy, Andy above Andy above Jordan. Um, what the fuck, man? This is always a good idea. This is always Jordan. Uh, no, no, Rick, Pizzi, Andy, Jordan. I'd say like, do I keep getting slid down the list here? Is that what's happening? No, no, Brad's after Tyler Tyler. Tyler, Tyler, integral part.

Spencer, of course, Spencer actually is probably two above Pete C. The car, the parking garage attendant. They're fantastic. Oh, the front desk over here, incredible. Coffee shop with a smile every day. The guy in the lobby downstairs. Come see, come see.

Oh, all right, I got one. There was some issues. There was some issues. Parking attendant. Parking attendant loves me. I give them Celsius. They love me down there. Give them the whole office. Who doesn't love Celsius? Yeah, everybody loves us. The Wegmans staff.

Wegmans staff. Fantastic. So when, when do I come into this? Spoon, Farber, of course they brought us in. All the super chats. All the super chats. I mean, Sucker Free has been phenomenal. Let's not forget about Salad Fingers, Walter.

10 seconds to heart. 10 seconds to heart. 10 seconds to heart. 10 seconds to heart. 10 the super chats. All the super chats. I mean, Sucker Free has been phenomenal. Let's not forget about Salad Fingers, Walter. 10 seconds to hard out here. 10 seconds to hard out. Oh, geez. OK, well, you can hear my music. And then, of course, there's Frank and Connor

and everyone else. But we feel the love. We feel the love around these parts. By the way, Virgil R.T.'s going to join us in 90 minutes, one of the best in the world. So stay tuned for that in an hour. Our show will begin. I don't even know, has anything else happened in the world of boxing every day? Can we talk about Lutabelle just coming out? Did I ask any questions? He came out hot. No, he knew what he wanted to talk about. I don't know

if I asked a single question. I think I said like a why or what do you mean by that? Yeah, you didn't came out hot. He's got a strong F for it. He's got a strong. Yeah. No one knows who the fuck he is. There's some people who are meant to say it. He's meant to say it. I was thinking it. A Lou DiBella podcast would actually be kind of interesting. Like he just tells it like it is. I do have some breaking news guys. One of the most, I think, talked about and beloved and memorable guests in the history of this program will be joining us for the first time in a very long time in a live interview format. I did speak to him during the pandemic, but that was not live.

And so this is the first time in a very long time. It is of course, the great Jason Mayhem Miller. He'll be joining us on tomorrow's program. People until this day talk to us about the lucky Patrick interview. He'll be on Jan Bokovic will be on Thomas Thomas Cardi will join us as well and perhaps one other. So another loaded show, a little something for everyone like today's program. That'll be tomorrow. Anyway, thank you to our guests Ludabella, Natalia Neidhart, Rafael Vazif, thanks to you, thanks to them. Back on Wednesday, I'm out of here.